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Braulio
Nomad
Posts: 321
Registered: 11-7-2002
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Well said David - I haven't been back long enough to know who Antonio is - I guess he's mexican - but yeah - this board is fortunate to have Jesse's
perspective.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64525
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Hi Braulio!
Antonio is known as 'BajaCactus' here on Nomad... We met him in July at a small bar b que at JR's place... we met JESSE that day, as well!: http://vivabaja.com/bajacactus
Antonio had a great fiesta for us (around 70!) in August: http://vivabaja.com/fiesta
Here's Antonio and myself then...
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Braulio
Nomad
Posts: 321
Registered: 11-7-2002
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You look even more mexicano than Antonio dude - where you been hanging out?
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64525
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Thank you!
I hope I can get an FM-3 easier with that comment! HA! Baja is in my blood, afterall.
Seriously, I work outdoors everyday and the sun and I are on a first name basis!
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jrbaja
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4863
Registered: 2-2-2003
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I thought he was talking about
the burrito belly hahahahahahahaha
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64525
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
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Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Well, Antonio has me beat in that catagory JR... But the more I go to Baja and eat great food, the closer I become to getting a nick name like
'Gordo'!
I have to get back to hiking the Camino Real to keep it under control!
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Bruce R Leech
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6796
Registered: 9-20-2004
Location: Ensenada formerly Mulege
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Mood: A lot cooler than Mulege
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Wow
Wow
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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Eli
Super Nomad
Posts: 1471
Registered: 8-26-2003
Location: L.B. Baja Sur
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Mood: Some times Observing, sometimes Oblivious.
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Jesse
For two days now I have been chewing on your comment that U.S. has a culture and Mexico is still searching for it's own. I have always assumed the
oppisite, now I don't know. In fin, could you please give me some examples of state side culture, you really got me intrigued with that one.
[Edited on 10-19-2004 by Eli]
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JESSE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3370
Registered: 11-5-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Eli
For two days now I have been chewing on your comment that U.S. has a culture and Mexico is still searching for it's own. I have always assumed the
oppisite, now I don't know. In fin, could you please give me some examples of state side culture, you really got me intrigued with that one.
[Edited on 10-19-2004 by Eli] |
This is something that not even most Mexicans know, since we have been told my our education system that we have a great an old culture, compared for
lets say, your culture. Americans have a NEW nation, but the culture you have (primarily european) has been with you far longer than what we have here
in Mexico. During the Spanish conquest, real Mexican culture was destroyed, modern Mexicans know what our pyramids look like, what our ancestors
dressed like, and some of their more visible customs, but we have no idea what the prehispanic mind was like, we have no clue what their values where,
what their view of life and our relationship with the earth was, we dont even know what our vision of art and family life was like. As far as our
spanish side is concerned, we feel we can relate to many traditions and views of european origin, but not completely, because we are not of european
descent. Its as is theres something missing in our life, lately we have been looking more and more into following our side of european culture mainly
because of the growth of american culture, but i can tell you that Mexicans wont ever turn into something similar to what americans are, its simply
not in out genes.
Since theres no way to resurrect our prehispanic past, and we cannot feel complete with only our european past, Mexican society needs to create a new
culture for itself, a hybrid, and that takes a very very long time.
When you guys look at a greek statue or a Michelangelo painting, you can relate to it, you can feel what the artist was thinking, his view of life,
culture, and art. When we look at a Maya mural or an Aztec statute, we are at a loss, we have no idea and cant relate to them, we dont know what they
felt, what their concept of beauty and art was, and what drove them to create it. We know when it was created, have some ideas on why, but we will
never be able to connect with that part of our culture, that part is lost.
Mexican people have old pyramids, old art, but a baby culture.
Americans have new buildings, new art and style, but an established old culture.
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Eli
Super Nomad
Posts: 1471
Registered: 8-26-2003
Location: L.B. Baja Sur
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Mood: Some times Observing, sometimes Oblivious.
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O.K., Jesse, I can grasp your perspective,
More so since you live in T.j., where all is a mix.
Buttttttttttt;
I have always seen U.S. as a melting pot of many cultures, American Indian, India, Europe, African, Middle Eastern, etc. etc.
At the same time, I see the Huchiol, the Mayan, in paticular the Lacandon Indians as completly immersed in their understanding of where they came
from.
As I walk the streets of Oaxaca, I hear all kinds of Indian Dielects, I see customs in dress, eating habits, and a perspective of life that they
project that completly validates the culture they have immeged from.
Again, I can see where you are coming from as a Mexican, (mixed). Still, as a gringa, I am a mix, mostly European, but also native American, and as
such I was rasied in a jumbled up culture.
This mix up of U.S. cultures is not taking into consideration that I have spent my life floating between both sides of the boarder, (I am the only one
of my siblings that was born on "the other side").
At this point in time, I believe that due to the Media and Internet, we are becoming a global villiage; the whole planet is poco a poco, ever so
slowly emerging into one gloob of a culture which is derived from the many cultures world wide that are contributing to it. Maybe????????
I don't know, I just thought your comment to be very interesting and most certainly thought provoking, which I will continue to ponder as I wander,
studying the clouds that daily change but are the same, which also intrigues the beejeezus out of me.
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David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64525
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
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Jesse & Eli...
This is really great stuff... I understand Jesse totally and he is so well versed in putting it into words, it has to have 'stewed' in his cabeza for
quite some time.
I am wondering how it is you came to understand American 'culture' so well? Most of us think culture is what we are bombarded with on TV, from Coke
and Pepsi!
I was fortunate to tour Europe, and I can relate to what you say. Do you think most Mestizo Mexicans cannot connect to their Aztec half? What about
the huge per centage of los indios who live in Oaxaca, Chiapas, and most of the mainland? They still don't speak Spanish... after nearly 500 years
since Cortes.... I wonder if they have a connection with the Aztecs, Olmecs, or their own tribe?
Great stuff... I think we need another cultural fiesta in Tijuana to exchange thoughts on this!
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3783
Registered: 2-9-2004
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Jesse - with all due respect, I believe your viewpoint assumes too much. Our "culture" here is so diverse that most of us cannot cling to or identify
with old customs, but rather, we make a quantuum leap to whatever familial status one is born into. For instance, my greatgrandparents did indeed
come from Germany and France (whom I never knew), but my grandparents were farmers in Kansas, who came to California during the war to get jobs and
leave the hard life of farming. I do not celebrate Octoberfest nor own a pair of lederhosen or know any French or German language. I don't know how
to operate a plow or pluck a chicken. As children we learned about religion and traditional holidays like Christmas, Holloween, Easter, etc., but do
not celebrate saint's days or patron saint's of our smaller communities like they do in small villages in Mexico. You say, "when you guys look at a
greek statue or a Michelangelo painting, you can relate to it, you can feel what the artist was thinking ...." Not so - only if one has an interest
in art and so educates him/herself. Otherwise, that statute or art is out there for anyone in the world to enjoy at any level they are able. This is
universal. It is truly sad that you cannot relate to a Maya mural and "have no idea and can't relate to them, etc.". I suspect this is because you
have not made an effort to learn what is behind their creations. I have spent many years and read many books and traveled many miles to see Mayan
structures and habitation sites to learn, simply because I am interested to know about these people who have devised such remarkable mathematical
contributions as well as architecture and art pieces. It is certainly not lost - in fact, more and more it is being understood and revived and
protected. Mexican culture is more pure than that in America - you are simply wrong when you say that we have an established old culture. I live in
a city of 3 million people, where there is a neighborhood of Italians who celebrate life in their way, and similarly, a Portugese community,
Vietnamese, black, and now a significant African influx. I don't try to understand or participate in all of these diverse cultural influences because
there are simply too many. And that is only in one large city in America. Cities in the south predominately black have their own culture, likewise
the Cuban communities in Florida. I would opine that other states dissimilar of large cities - Montana, Idaho, Maine don't have a "culture" per se -
200 years of diverse European immigrants doesn't provide a basis for such a culture -- more so an "American" way of life rich in local traditions.
For instance, we in California don't have a maple syrup season. This can be compared to Mexico's many indigenous cultures - each having their own
beliefs and lifestyles, which they strive to maintain despite your government's attempt at genocide (Acteal). If you begin to study your country's
past inhabitants and appreciate the indigenous population of today and try to understand their way of life, you would find your roots and your
culture. It is there - it is not lost. And if you feel that you are not of the indigenous indio cultures, but rather, of the rural Mexican with
their adobe homes, milpas, arranged marriages who struggled through a hard life, living day to day, then be proud that you are better off, but don't
forget those roots. And contrary to your belief that Mexicans won't ever turn into something similar to what Americans are because it is not in their
genes, take a look at what Mexico City is becoming - another Los Angeles. There is no doubt of this. Mexican society does not need to create a new
culture - a hybrid - you have a wonderful rich culture that needs to be remembered, embraced and celebrated - in all its variations. Spend Dia de la
Muertos (sp?) in Oaxaca and see your culture come alive.
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Packoderm
Super Nomad
Posts: 2116
Registered: 11-7-2002
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I think I believe in Jesse's point of view. The person who sculpted the famous sculpture David, as we know for the most part, was emanating an
appreciation of the perfect body form but also a vulnerability and intelligence. What about the creator of Chac Mool? The Christian right destroyed
that legacy of perspective. To me, the most interesting aspect of anthropology is the question, "Where were they coming from?" I am not German, and I
do not fomally, officially celebrate Oktoberfest or own a pair of short-legged overalls (or whatever those things are called) but I know about and
appreciate the spirit of Oktoberfest, and I celebrate the spirit of Oktoberfest whenever possible all year long.
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jrbaja
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4863
Registered: 2-2-2003
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The "True American Culture"
died when they celebrated the first Thanksgiving. From then on it has just been a blend of cultures from all over the place.
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Packoderm
Super Nomad
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I don't think there was actually a true, central Native American culture back then. I believe there as a smattering of several cultures spread across
the continent, and even some of these Native American cultures were continuously blending into each other while others remained separate. There is
probably a stronger central, unified Native American culture today than there was back then.
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wilderone
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3783
Registered: 2-9-2004
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To me, the question is not so much "where" but "why". Why and for what reason did they make a long obsidian blade, a Chac Mool, the incense burner,
hoe blade, paintbrush, beads, altar, why the bloodletting, ear piercing, human sacrifice. Once the "whys" become understood you begin to appreciate
the culture, which, in turn, will lead you to respect various cultures as they exist today. A big WHY that still intrigues me, and which I have yet
to see with my own eyes, are the figurines of Acambaro. Do some online research - really bizarre - has both elements of WHERE and WHY. This is a
prime example that, in not knowing their origin, the cultural appreciation is lost (but art for art's sake is not - eye of the beholder).
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jrbaja
Ultra Nomad
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Registered: 2-2-2003
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Probably not
a central native American culture, as back then, each individual nation had enough members to have had a culture all their own, although very similar
to the rest of the neighboring cultures then.
There culture was based a lot on spirituality, various gods and sacrifice which they truly believed in.
This is something that we have yet to fully understand although on occasion, I think Lera may be a practicioner.
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Eli
Super Nomad
Posts: 1471
Registered: 8-26-2003
Location: L.B. Baja Sur
Member Is Offline
Mood: Some times Observing, sometimes Oblivious.
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Hey Bernie, you reading this?
man, oh man, did you even open a can a worms when you started this thread, we have been all over the place.......fun!
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BajaGrrls
Junior Nomad
Posts: 68
Registered: 7-9-2004
Location: Chicago
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I've really enjoyed reading everyone's views on this topic. While I'm inclined to agree that Americans like lack a strong sense of unified culture,
let's face it, new immigrants are arriving daily, I also see Jesse's point that Americans of European decent do have an "older" history. I don't
think history always relates to culture though.
As a kid growing up first generation American born, (my parents arrived from Denmark in the 1970's) I always felt that I didn't fit in anywhere. I
couldn't identify completely with American kids, and I had never been to Denmark, so that felt even more foreign. Eventually I learned to create my
own blend of culture. I think you could go to the most culturally "pure" place on earth and have a difficult time finding people who viewed their
culture as being exactly the same as anothers.
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JESSE
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3370
Registered: 11-5-2002
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Eli
More so since you live in T.j., where all is a mix.
Buttttttttttt;
I have always seen U.S. as a melting pot of many cultures, American Indian, India, Europe, African, Middle Eastern, etc. etc.
At the same time, I see the Huchiol, the Mayan, in paticular the Lacandon Indians as completly immersed in their understanding of where they came
from.
As I walk the streets of Oaxaca, I hear all kinds of Indian Dielects, I see customs in dress, eating habits, and a perspective of life that they
project that completly validates the culture they have immeged from.
Again, I can see where you are coming from as a Mexican, (mixed). Still, as a gringa, I am a mix, mostly European, but also native American, and as
such I was rasied in a jumbled up culture.
This mix up of U.S. cultures is not taking into consideration that I have spent my life floating between both sides of the boarder, (I am the only one
of my siblings that was born on "the other side").
At this point in time, I believe that due to the Media and Internet, we are becoming a global villiage; the whole planet is poco a poco, ever so
slowly emerging into one gloob of a culture which is derived from the many cultures world wide that are contributing to it. Maybe????????
I don't know, I just thought your comment to be very interesting and most certainly thought provoking, which I will continue to ponder as I wander,
studying the clouds that daily change but are the same, which also intrigues the beejeezus out of me. |
You are right about the Indians in Mexico, but the sad reality is that pure indians are down to only 20% of the population, and from that 20% only a
small percentage have stayed close to their culture, wich has not died but its slowly disapearing as Mexico modernizes, what we are seeing is the slow
death of whats left of those cultures.
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