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BajaGrrls
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| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
...but its slowly disapearing as Mexico modernizes, what we are seeing is the slow death of whats left of those cultures.
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That's just part of evolution. In with the new, out with the old. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just natural. Each generation looses a little
bit of its heritage and creates a new part. History happens right before our eyes.
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JESSE
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| Quote: | Originally posted by David K
This is really great stuff... I understand Jesse totally and he is so well versed in putting it into words, it has to have 'stewed' in his cabeza for
quite some time.
I am wondering how it is you came to understand American 'culture' so well? Most of us think culture is what we are bombarded with on TV, from Coke
and Pepsi!
I was fortunate to tour Europe, and I can relate to what you say. Do you think most Mestizo Mexicans cannot connect to their Aztec half? What about
the huge per centage of los indios who live in Oaxaca, Chiapas, and most of the mainland? They still don't speak Spanish... after nearly 500 years
since Cortes.... I wonder if they have a connection with the Aztecs, Olmecs, or their own tribe?
Great stuff... I think we need another cultural fiesta in Tijuana to exchange thoughts on this! |
David,
Small tribes are still virtually intact in some very few remote parts of the nation, but non of these cultures have what the big 3 ( Aztec, Maya,
Zapotec) had, and that is complex culture with writting, religion, art, and everything that a major civilization has.
Imagine your culture without Greece? without Rome? thats what the Aztec and Maya cultures mean to us, specially the Aztec, since the Maya was already
in decline when the Spanish got here.
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JESSE
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| Quote: | Originally posted by BajaGrrls
| Quote: | Originally posted by JESSE
...but its slowly disapearing as Mexico modernizes, what we are seeing is the slow death of whats left of those cultures.
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That's just part of evolution. In with the new, out with the old. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just natural. Each generation looses a little
bit of its heritage and creates a new part. History happens right before our eyes. |
I am also not saying its bad, i am just saying that modern Mexican society is starting a process of creation, we have to build a new culture based on
what we are and the forces that influence us, and its my opinion that it will be a very very long process.
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wilderone
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How will you ever know when you "arrive" at the precise culture you attempt to seek? You can't - because you already have a culture that is always
evolving. To whatever degree you embrace and adopt your forefathers' values and traditions is the culture that exists today. If it's dying, it's a
matter of personal choice. If you don't like that concept as it affects you, there is plenty to draw from - just look inside yourself and see what
matters, then choose to celebrate it and live it within traditional style. This may take some study into those traditions - make the effort.
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Baja Bernie
`Normal` Nomad Correspondent
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Eli
Yes I am still here. Interesting I started this thread "WONDERING" and now Jesse et el have me sitting here Pondering. Jesse has a lot of very good
points and some of the counter points are also food for thought. I think I'll just wander around pondering on this one for a while.
Jesse, my young friend, have you ever read "Aztec" by Gary Jennings. It was written about two years before you were born---Here is a poem, taken from
the introduction to the book, written by Huexotzin The Prince of Texcoco in 1485---
You tell me then that I must perish
like the flowers that I cherish
Nothing remaining of my name,
nothing remembered of my fame?
But the gardens I planted still are young--
the songs I sang will still be sung!
What do you suppose he meant by the last line--I wonder.
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
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bajalera
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Jesse, I'm not convinced the average American feels much affiliation with Greece and Rome.
Lera
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Mike Humfreville
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Bajalera...
I don't know average. I'm on the underside academically. But I tend to pay attention when in another world, which is most of the time since I have
no place on my own, socially.
When reading words another has written, an observation of a simple worn twig washed ashore or a hardwood carving made be a mainland Mexican and
shipped to San Felipe for sale to tourists, I tend to dive into them, the words, and soak up the issues the writer writes.
You and I know that JESSE writes only the truth. His post, regarding the aspects he sees in his neighbors to the north are his truths. I read his
thoughts with deep feeling, knowing he is expressing himself in a way I?d never read him before. I believe them, his feelings. I know you do too,
bajalera.
While I think we Gringos, behaving in Mexico, are many on vacation, with others of us living there beyond part time, we share much history.
I suppose there are a few locations on Earth where we live in isolation. Iceland? Greenland? A frozen hut in Antarctica? But for the most part we
are together. Seeing the lauded paintings and statues of Western Europe, the isolated walled villages of Africa, colored as they were with the tints
of local earth unique to their location, hearing the complaints of the Yugoslavs during the ?70?s and looking in confusion at graffiti scribbled
across a bridge ?NIXON: Assassin,? as we crossed in innocence into Portugal from Spain.
On the contrary, mi amigo (amiga), many of us are aware of the world and what we owe it and where we fit, can strive to find a place, a tiny niche to
save ourselves when the weather breaks and the sea cuts loose. We can know our small place to stand and steal a scrap of food when no one is
watching.
While I don?t mean to shout out names, jesse?s, just as yours, bajalera, have become an inspiration to me, for the understanding of a spirit unique
from mine that I can learn and grow from.
Yet we are all a voice, unique at times, and self-standing when necessary. At times we are one.
I look forward to the time we will meet. We share so much.
We win from the strength of each other and our individual attitudes!
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Eli
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Ditto Mike
Again I have stepped away from my study of the clouds, and have been reading every ones comments in relation to their vision of ?What is Culture? and
?Where did it?, or even better yet, ?Where does it come from?, I certainly really truly have so far enjoyed the diversity of everyone?s opinion in
regard to this.
I can relate to so many visions projected here. In particular, Jesse?s, Wilderone and Bajagrrl, Mike H.; Each drawing from their own life?s
experience, have expressed visions that I can certainly relate to and have given me much food for thought. As I watch the clouds dance about me, I
just continue chewing and chewing on what all everybody has to say in regard to their vision of culture.
Jesse?s, as I grasp what you are saying, I understand that your lose of identify with any culture is drawn from being raised in Baja. As the Perd? cu
Indians, (Help me on the spelling of this one David, or at least forgive me), were the original ?leave nothing but your foot steps when your gone
conciseness? sort of folks. As such, they didn?t leave a whole lot of clutter; so we don?t have a whole lot of knowledge of what their culture was
about, other than they were nomadic, did some hunting and gathering, ate a bunch of clams, pityas and left a few cave paintings.
Jesse, chooses not to identify with his European ancestry, and therefore does not feel privileged to draw from this culture that truly he has much
right to as an anyone in the America?s. If you analyze it, with the exception of those born of 100% Indian ancestry, (be it Hopi, Yaqui, Mayan or
Apache, what ever), or 100% Middle Eastern or African, etc., (expect you get my drift, I hope); Most of us in the America?s have all, a lot of, or at
least some European ancestry somewhere in there and as such, we are drawing from our European roots, and therefore have the right to claim that
culture. (Although in the end, I still believe that we are all of us on the planet now influenced by all cultures due to in the interaction of media
and the internet).
Bajagrrl, I know where you are coming from when you comment about coming from Europe young enough to loose your identity as a European, but being
raised in a European household, therefore not feeling American either. For as long as I can remember, I have felt an outsider looking in. Neither the
Gringos, nor the Mexicans, nor even the Chicano?s choose to identify me as ?One of their Own?. Having been raised on both sides of the boarder, I
belong to neither nor none. Ah but, the advantage being; I don?t get lost in identifying as anything other than being a plain and simple Humane
Being from Plant Earth and draw my own culture from what ever culture that exists on the plant that I choose to identify with.
Wilderone, I loved your dissertation on what we have access to from the ancient cultures here in Mexico. I agree, we are truly wealthy beyond belief
in the sense of what we may draw from in the way of past and present Mexican/Indian culture. You are right, you just got to get in there and study it,
it is there for who ever wants to partake of it, and as much as you can fill up on it until you are busting the preverbal gut. I expect that there is
more to study, more ideas and culture to fill ones brain than even an academic such as A.A. could ever hope to consume in one life time.
Certainly, I agree with the statement that we form our culture as we go, it is continually changing and evolving and well, a lot of wonderful (and
hopefully some of the awful) stuff gets lost along the way. What did Europe loose with the Alexander libraries were destroyed? God only knows what
the Catholic Church did in the way of destroying history, art and culture in Europe and the America?s during the Inquisition?
I personally respect and am in awe of the art created centuries ago by the Greeks and Romans, but I don?t really relate to them, they don?t sing to
me, but it appears that they do speak to you, Jesse, think about that, does that not make them part of who you are, your culture?
With out doubt, the ancient cultures that truly mostly influence my sense of culture as expressed in my art and life style are the Hopi, Huichol,
Yaqui, Zapotecas & Mayas. When I look at my drawings; I know that these ancient cultures along with Picasso, Rodolfo Morales, Grandma Moses, Frida,
Josefina Aguilar, your comments, and the clouds that I study daily are excellent examples of where I draw my inspiration from and which most dictates
my own vision of reality and style of art. And as such, I have much to thank them (and you) all for. Yes truly, I thank my lucky stars for the grace
of knowing them (and you) in their (and your) passing on of their (and your) vision and culture to me.
Simpre, Dando Gracia, Sara
[Edited on 10-21-2004 by Eli]
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Baja Bernie
`Normal` Nomad Correspondent
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BajaLera
Lee,
I am with you on this one so far. While pondering I thought a lot about history-vs-culture and am no embarked on a bit of research to see if what I
believe is true is in fact true. FUN!
I kinda think of the history of Greece and Rome as something like what the Priests wrote or failed to write about the natives of this this wonderful
finger we call Baja.
I believe that historians always have an undue impact upon what becomes culture.
Taking the fact that historians had their beginnings in the genes of great 'story tellers' or telllers of great tales---The guy or gal who wrote it
controls it.
Looking at history as a time line I find that Mexico and Latin America are almost totally ignored--so from that standpoint Jesse has some very solid
points.
More later on how I think cultures are erased and replaced by the writers of history and others. I have to do somemore looking before I expose myself
on this.
MIKE,
I know you will be very pleased if you ever have the opportunity to meet Jesse in person.
Warm, handsome, outgoing, and obviously very intelligent. Possible a revolutionary given a certain enviornment.
In other words one heck of a man.
My smidgen of a claim to fame is that I have had so many really good friends. By Bernie Swaim December 2007
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Debra
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Hansome?
Bernie, so I get invited too? 
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JESSE
Ultra Nomad
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| Quote: | Originally posted by bajalera
Jesse, I'm not convinced the average American feels much affiliation with Greece and Rome.
Lera |
Nor directly, but the basis of your culture comes from those civilizations, without them, european and american society would be completely different.
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JESSE
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I just wanted to add that living in Baja might seem like a disadvantage for a Mexican looking for his culture, but i do not believe that is true,
Mexican culture is not prehispanic culture, and Mexican culture is not european culture, Mexican culture is a blend, a hybrid of both, and here in the
border is where this new culture is emerging. There is a large movement of historians, thinkers, and artists that are starting to call the border
area the "Third nation", a place where Mexicans are finally blending both western style life and our prehispanic roots. Many of these people think
that southern and central Mexico is afraid of change and desperately is trying to hang on to only our prehispanic roots, while feeling angry towards
anything western, but here in the border we arent afraid of the west, we that live here understand that is possible to be distinctively Mexican and
live a modern western life.
The problem in my opinion, is not that we do not know how to live and thrive in an american-western style society, that in my opinion is fairly easy,
the problem is that we havent defined what a Mexican is, and thus dont know how to blend it properly with our clearly defined western part. If i
wanted to live like an american i could, but i am in search of something more, i want to be prosperous, modern, yet distinctively Mexican, and that is
the long path we have to find ahead.
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Annie T.
Junior Nomad
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Registered: 10-18-2002
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Sometimes lurking can be incredibly enriching. Thank you all, Annie T.
Live, love and be happy.
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Debra
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Annie
I know what got you.....the "cyber sex" I was enjoying with D. Rat right? 
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Annie T.
Junior Nomad
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Debra, Totally!!
Live, love and be happy.
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marla
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People are people regardless of their nationality. I know a lady from El Salvador who has lived in the US for many years and is now a citizen and owns
her own home. When she first came to this country, she was a live-in maid for an American family. These people gave her room and board and NOTHING
ELSE. Essentially she was their slave until she was able to get away. These people were scum not because they were Americans but because they were
scum. Having said that I have seen many occasions in which the Latino culture, not necessarily just Mexican, puts women up on pedestals in the ideal
but then allows them to be repressed and abused as a matter of course. In rural parts of Mexico, if families can afford education it is always the
boys that go, not the girls. I know of very successful female ceramic artists who even travel to the US for shows who are illiterate and totally
dependant on their husband's honesty and goodwill because he sells their wares for them and runs the business--because they cannot. They were not
allowed to go to school. THe last two times I have flown to Mexico, well-dressed and articulate older ladies sitting next to me have asked me to fill
out their immigration cards for them. Not because they couldn't read English because the cards were also in Spanish, but clearly because they could
not read at ALL. Women run the home but have no economic power at all. This was also true however in my Anglo Saxon family in the U.S.
If a man walks in the woods for love of them half of each day, he is in danger of being regarded as a loafer. But if he spends his days as a
speculator, shearing off those woods and making the earth bald before her time, he is deemed an industrious and enterprising citizen. Henry David
Thoreau
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Bruce R Leech
Elite Nomad
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Mood: A lot cooler than Mulege
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Thanks Jesse
Thanks Jesse you are someone that realy understands mexico.
Bruce R Leech Mulege Baja
[Edited on 10-22-2004 by Bruce R Leech]
Bruce R Leech
Ensenada
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jrbaja
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That may be true
for the past, but from what I have seen, the majority of students in the colleges in Baja are female. I pay attention to these things
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jrbaja
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Jesse
you really got me thinking when you were describing your culture, (or lack thereof).
I did a little investigating into mine.
It all started with something called the whiskey rebellion. Which would explain one hell of a lot!
Check it out
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lizard lips
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Those of you who disrespect your wife and marriage and have other families and children deserve to go straight to hell....You talk about being
human--That is not human as far as Im concerned it is being a DOG--plain and simple. I travel all over Latin America and it is always the same
situation. The Father leaves his wife with 8 kids finds another wife and does not support his prior family with a dime. It happened to my wifes father
here in Ensenada and you can believe me when I say it has effected our relationship. All because of this thoughtless prick that was not happy with his
present situation he decides that the pastures are greener on the other side and says to hell with it. Is that being human. I dont think so. Eight
kids and leaves and does not contact them for years! Im sure some of you are going to say this is an isolated situation, bullchit. I have lived in
Mexico for 19 years and see it all the time. Both my Mother and Father have been married and dicvorced 3 times but the support was always there and my
Father did not leave and never come back. I saw him all the time and benifited from his support when he was'nt there. I have been married for 17 years
and could never leave my Wife and 11 year old Son no matter how bad it could get. Im here for the long haul, through the worst and smile at the
best....BEING HUMAN--BULLchit-- Grow some balls and be a MAN
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