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rts551
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Quote: Originally posted by David K  | It's funny how "tolerant" and "open minded" the "elites" are UNTIL they disagree with you!
When Marco Polo returned to Venice from China, brand new plagues were introduced that killed millions.
The Spanish carried diseases to the Americas that were unknown there (here)... it was not intentional, but is normal when humans move into new lands
where the locals have no resistance.
The missionaries were doing 'normal' conversion activities the Europeans believed would improve life (right or wrong by today's standards), and not
committing intentional genocide.
The N-zis did, and ISIS is now committing genocide. There is no equating the missionaries activities to them. Bad stuff happens, but it was a
by-product of the occupation of California, and not the purpose.
Just how long could California remain isolated from diseases? If not the Spanish, then it would be another world power of that period.
Let's study history, but condemning a hard working priest, 250 years later, serves what purpose? There are no more unexplored lands or undiscovered
races of people to 'save'. |
If we "occupied" a land today and our hard work resulted in the genocide of that culture, I wonder how many would recommend us for sainthood? or
would we be taken to the world court? Too bad we can not write our own history as some did...our write their own manufactured facts as some do
today.
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David K
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If donkeys had wings then they could fly... is that what you are saying?
if if if
That leaves way too many dreamy possibilities.
Let's just deal with facts that are known.
1) Faith is extremely important to many people and has saved many people.
2) Faith has led to millions of deaths because many of faith are not tolerant of others.
3) Serra (and the other missionaries in California) were given the job (by their superiors) to convert the native people into good Spanish subjects of
the king. No orders were given to kill any friendly natives. They needed the Indians, so killing them was not productive or desired.
What did Serra personally do that was counter to his instructions or goals? Remember, diseases were already introduced long before Serra was even
born... even if you argue that was intentional.
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rts551
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You want facts. Then it is time we recognized the occupation for what it was. Imperialism at all cost, with conversion of heathens in mind, and
looking for riches. Geeze talk about donkeys.
[Edited on 4-26-2015 by rts551]
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David K
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Yes, imperialism... expanding the Spanish Empire... so what else was new, back then?
What does that have to do with Father Serra's job performance, and sainthood?
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rts551
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| Quote: Originally posted by David K | Yes, imperialism... expanding the Spanish Empire... so what else was new, back then?
What does that have to do with Father Serra's job performance, and sainthood? |
another fact. they furthered
the annihilation of a culture and never really careed about it. Father Serra was a part of that process. Would we honor him any more than we honor
the people that burned witches at the stake in the name of religion?
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David K
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Ok Ralph, that is a fair personal opinion on the subject and ending with a question. Let's see if Sargento Diaz has some response, as this is his
thread.
As for my reply:
I don't know the Franciscan theology as well as the Jesuit for their caring of the native culture, but the Jesuits did. In reading about the Jesuits
in California (Baja today), one learns that they respected the languages, place names, and incorporated them into the missions. They did not tolerate
native religion, however. That is understandable because their primary motive was to convert the natives to Catholicism.
I have not found that the Dominicans or Franciscans tried to learn the native languages as the Jesuits all had or use local names, north of El
Rosario.
However, it was during the Jesuit period that the soldiers (most likely) brought the diseases... some could have been introduced earlier (pearl
traders, pirates). Again, that is hardly the Jesuits fault. It sure isn't Serra's, who arrived after the Jesuits were removed, and well after so many
natives were dead from disease.
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sargentodiaz
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All of the Catholic missionaries sent to the New World attended local seminaries (colleges) where they were taught the skills necessary to be a
missionary.
One of those skills was in language. Almost every single missionary made it an immediate goal to learn the local language - often compiling
dictionaries so they could conduct the religious rites in the local language. The struggle to take Christian concepts and turn them into something the
locals could understand was as difficult as anything they would encounter.
As for killing natives - why on earth would any sane missionary even think of such a thing? Their goal was to bring as many as possible to the church
and give them a European style of living - lifting them out of their Stone Age ways.
It is estimated that most New World natives died of disease before the arrival of Europeans as those who did afterward. The biggest killer was
Smallpox - just as it was for Europeans who contacted it. It just seems the Europeans had more of an immunity to it.
I will pose the same question as before -- if Serra and the other missionaries were so cruel, why did converts voluntary drop to their knees and kiss
the hand of Serra whenever he appeared where they lived? Why did they voluntarily travel far just to pass his grave?
And, why did so many clans beg for missionaries to found missions in their area?
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LancairDriver
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If you want to take the time to read some excellently researched material related to this subject, read Charles G. Manns books 1491, and then 1493.
1491 is the Americas prior to Columbus, and makes the case that the Americas were far more populated than Europe and in many ways more advanced. The
follow up book, 1493, covered the incredible way the discovery of the Americas changed the world in ways that are still evolving in agriculture,
finance, and virtually every aspect of life. Worldwide civilizations that would not exist today owe their existence to the discovery and spread of
agricultural knowledge, and of course gold and silver deciding the dominant nations of the era.
It is far more complex than simply focusing on Religion or Imperialism in understanding how and why things evolved as they did.
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rts551
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| Quote: Originally posted by sargentodiaz | All of the Catholic missionaries sent to the New World attended local seminaries (colleges) where they were taught the skills necessary to be a
missionary.
One of those skills was in language. Almost every single missionary made it an immediate goal to learn the local language - often compiling
dictionaries so they could conduct the religious rites in the local language. The struggle to take Christian concepts and turn them into something the
locals could understand was as difficult as anything they would encounter.
As for killing natives - why on earth would any sane missionary even think of such a thing? Their goal was to bring as many as possible to the church
and give them a European style of living - lifting them out of their Stone Age ways. TO MAKE THEM SLAVES AS THEY BUILT THEIR EMPIRES.
It is estimated that most New World natives died of disease before the arrival of Europeans as those who did afterward. The biggest killer was
Smallpox - just as it was for Europeans who contacted it. It just seems the Europeans had more of an immunity to it. AND THE SMALLPOX CAME FROM
WHERE? ALONG WITH SYPHILIS.
I will pose the same question as before -- if Serra and the other missionaries were so cruel, why did converts voluntary drop to their knees and kiss
the hand of Serra whenever he appeared where they lived? Why did they voluntarily travel far just to pass his grave? THIS IS HISTORY AS WRITTEN BY
SERRA AND OTHER MISSIONARIES. MANY RELIGIOUS LEADERS CAST THEMSELVES THIS WAY STARTING WITH THE BIBLE. AND UNFORTUNATELY, FOR MANY NATIVES IT
WAS OBEY OR BE BEATEN.
And, why did so many clans beg for missionaries to found missions in their area? |
As some on this forum do, the accounts that were written were done so to shed , the best light possible on themselves and their deeds, even if it
meant bending the truth.
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Bajahowodd
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This whole discussion reminds me of what the Mormons did to Hawaii.
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Skipjack Joe
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Most people mistakenly believe that the Old World introduced syphilus to the Americas. In fact, the opposite is true. Columbus' men introduced it to
the Old World.
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bezzell
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Speaking of faith-based f'g idiocy ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp4qt3rgepQ
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sargentodiaz
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Along this line, I was asking myself - did the Upper and Lower California Indians have tribes before the arrival of the Spanish?
Think upon it. These Iron Age peoples never traveled more than one day from where they were born. Their only interaction with other families/clans was
to get fresh blood in the form of young boys and girls.
They had no tribal councils or chiefs beyond the head of clans or families.
Check out my thoughts on this @ Father Serra's Legacy, http://msgdaleday,.blogspot.com
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Osprey
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Hundreds of tribes of Indians lived in and traveled to the area south of what is now the border many moons before the missionaries arrived. Usually
nomadic bands of Coastal and Great Basin Indians traveled about 100 miles per generation. Whoever painted the mid-drift cave paintings began 7800
hundred ago and the painting, occupation was continued over the millennia -- one shallow cave near Lake Chapala has been used by hunting groups as
they traveled the length of the peninsula beginning 10,000 years ago.
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bezzell
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If I'd wanted to reference you, I would have included your quote, or whole
reply ... but was obviously referencing the subject. It's not all about YOU.
wake up
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Bajahowodd
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| Quote: Originally posted by Skipjack Joe | | Most people mistakenly believe that the Old World introduced syphilus to the Americas. In fact, the opposite is true. Columbus' men introduced it to
the Old World. |
I'll bite. Where did Colombus's men get syphilis?
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Bajahowodd
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Yup! But how do we deal with the American Taliban??
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bezzell
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| Quote: Originally posted by David K | wake up[/rquote]
You did reference me when you quoted from my reply... but you cut off the sentence midway through. Stop using me if you are too tired to type the
words you want. |
(sigh) no wonder science presents such a problem for you.
Ni modo
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monoloco
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| Quote: Originally posted by sargentodiaz | The hatred and misunderstanding is expected,
What beliefs did the natives have before the arrival of the friars? Do you know? Have you ever researched their cultures? Do you even know if they
believed in a Creator Spirit or Supreme Being? What did they believe about death?
So - here it is. Giving birth was as the animals did it - squat and drop the baby on the ground and cut or gnaw the umbilical. If the baby suckled,
fine. If not, it was left to die.
Education was simply letting them imitate what their elders did. They had no medicine people except for a few gaining power over the group by mumbo
jumbo. They did not know and seldom used herbal medicines.
They lived every day aware that death was coming and the huge majority never traveled more than one day from where they were born. They spent every
waking hour searching for food and simply lay down where they were when the sun fell.
Their homes were temporary made of the crudest of structures, usually brush twined together.
Do you know what Father Serra and the friars offered them to live a better life?
Probably no.
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Yet they managed to survive as a culture for thousands of years. How long did they survive after the friars
offered a "better life?"
"The future ain't what it used to be"
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sargentodiaz
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Over the past two days, I've posted to articles about Blessed Father Serra to my blog http://msgdaleday.blogspot.com
One was from a panel of historians indicating that he didn't need to be an angel to be canonized. They also discussed how he was a man of his times.
The second was about Pope Francis conducting Mass at Rome's North American College with a homily that explains the decision to make Blessed Father
Serra a saint.
And, to all you non-Catholics - what difference does it make? It doesn't affect you one little bit.
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