| Pages:
1
2
3
4 |
DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
You are correct. It is just a bunch of meaningless hocus pocus; just disappointed that this pope, who seemed better than most as a leader, chose to
do this. Even though he is no more than an ordinary person, he does influence a lot of people.
Even this 10 year old knows how destructive the mission system was and they are still teaching this garbage in the 4th grade.
http://nativenewsonline.net/currents/ten-year-old-wukchumni-...
Bravo to this young boy
|
|
|
luv2fish
Nomad
Posts: 455
Registered: 5-8-2011
Member Is Offline
|
|
Quote: Originally posted by DianaT  |
You are correct. It is just a bunch of meaningless hocus pocus; just disappointed that this pope, who seemed better than most as a leader, chose to
do this. Even though he is no more than an ordinary person, he does influence a lot of people.
Even this 10 year old knows how destructive the mission system was and they are still teaching this garbage in the 4th
http://nativenewsonline.net/currents/ten-year-old-wukchumni-...
Bravo to this young boy[/
Your comments are very offensive mrs trotter. If you don't believe simply refrain from posting such hurtful and evil comments. This is the main
reason I will not donate to you friends elderly home in camalu, I figure friends of a feather..... Enjoy independence.. |
|
|
|
DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
Oh gosh, let me go eat some worms.
You have the right to any religious belief you choose. I find nothing positive in the history of the Catholic Religion and Church ---- even though I
know a number of Catholics that I like and respect very much. They have the right to their spiritual beliefs as do I and we co-exist in mutual
respect as humans beings, not as religious beings.
So if that makes me evil in your mind, well so be it. And what you chose to do with any help you might offer anyone is surely your business and
decision and you have the right to base it on anything you chose.
And frankly, IMHO, it is silly to think that any human being is closer to any god or gods than any other person. It is like thinking royalty is
somehow better than other people, of course most of them at one time or another grabbed this status as it was granted by the Catholic Church.
Hurtful? I am sure glad my Christian, Catholic or other wise, prefer to discuss why they believe instead of feeling hurt. I certainly don't feel
hurt when they don't agree with my spiritual beliefs. But of course, you are totally entitled to your own feelings and emotions. They belong to you.
|
|
|
rts551
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6699
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by luv2fish | | Quote: Originally posted by DianaT |
You are correct. It is just a bunch of meaningless hocus pocus; just disappointed that this pope, who seemed better than most as a leader, chose to
do this. Even though he is no more than an ordinary person, he does influence a lot of people.
Even this 10 year old knows how destructive the mission system was and they are still teaching this garbage in the 4th
http://nativenewsonline.net/currents/ten-year-old-wukchumni-...
Bravo to this young boy[/
Your comments are very offensive mrs trotter. If you don't believe simply refrain from posting such hurtful and evil comments. This is the main
reason I will not donate to you friends elderly home in camalu, I figure friends of a feather..... Enjoy independence.. |
Well you certainly are getting back at Ms trotter aren't you. If this is the kindness your religion promotes, I want nothing to do with it.
|
|
|
|
sargentodiaz
Nomad
Posts: 259
Registered: 2-20-2013
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by David K | Why is there no tolerance of other ideas or beliefs, or any open minds from the elites here?
Catholic-phobic are we? Read, learn, think, discuss... but to harass anyone who brings up the past because it upsets you, is selfish, rude, and
ignorant of reality.
It happened, it is history, and we are supposed to study history and if it was bad to not repeat it.
If the elites had their way, history would be changed and made PC, as if not talking about the past somehow makes it never have happened?
|
Thank you so very much, David. Knew I could count on you. 
|
|
|
monoloco
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6667
Registered: 7-13-2009
Location: Pescadero BCS
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by David K | Why is there no tolerance of other ideas or beliefs, or any open minds from the elites here?
Catholic-phobic are we? Read, learn, think, discuss... but to harass anyone who brings up the past because it upsets you, is selfish, rude, and
ignorant of reality.
It happened, it is history, and we are supposed to study history and if it was bad to not repeat it.
If the elites had their way, history would be changed and made PC, as if not talking about the past somehow makes it never have happened?
|
Just curious, what exactly is your definition of an "elite"? Anyone who disagrees with you? Are the native
people who object to the canonization of Fr. Sera "elites?"
[Edited on 5-4-2015 by monoloco]
"The future ain't what it used to be"
|
|
|
elgatoloco
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 4323
Registered: 11-19-2002
Location: Yes
Member Is Offline
|
|
Elite = intelligent 
MAGA
Making Attorneys Get Attorneys
|
|
|
mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 17341
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by monoloco | | Quote: Originally posted by David K | Why is there no tolerance of other ideas or beliefs, or any open minds from the elites here?
Catholic-phobic are we? Read, learn, think, discuss... but to harass anyone who brings up the past because it upsets you, is selfish, rude, and
ignorant of reality.
It happened, it is history, and we are supposed to study history and if it was bad to not repeat it.
If the elites had their way, history would be changed and made PC, as if not talking about the past somehow makes it never have happened?
|
Just curious, what exactly is your definition of an "elite"? Anyone who disagrees with you? Are the native
people who object to the canonization of Fr. Sera "elites?"
[Edited on 5-4-2015 by monoloco] |
Dk is a martyr with an inferiority complex. Anyone that disagrees with him is an elite. The boy really needs some self esteem.
|
|
|
bajacamper
Nomad
Posts: 113
Registered: 2-21-2009
Member Is Offline
|
|
Believe whatever you want, "just don't scare the horses".
|
|
|
bajabuddha
Banned
Posts: 4024
Registered: 4-12-2013
Location: Baja New Mexico
Member Is Offline
Mood: Always cranky unless medicated
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by luv2fish |
Your comments are very offensive mrs trotter. If you don't believe simply refrain from posting such hurtful and evil comments. This is the main
reason I will not donate to you friends elderly home in camalu, I figure friends of a feather..... Enjoy independence.. |
Wow.
This has to be the most hypocritical Christianly fueled b.s. I've heard since Rev. Terry Jones in Florida gained his spotlight. I guess Sundee Skool
was the hardest two weeks of your life.
Enjoy your dependence...
[Edited on 5-4-2015 by bajabuddha]
[Edited on 5-4-2015 by bajabuddha]
I don't have a BUCKET LIST, but I do have a F***- IT LIST a mile long!
86 - 45*
|
|
|
mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 17341
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by David K | | 'Elites' here are those who think or act mightier than the rest... as if their beliefs are the only ones that matter |
hey, that description sounds like the catholic church!
|
|
|
bajabuddha
Banned
Posts: 4024
Registered: 4-12-2013
Location: Baja New Mexico
Member Is Offline
Mood: Always cranky unless medicated
|
|
Good thing you don't do any name-calling, Sunny Boy.
I don't have a BUCKET LIST, but I do have a F***- IT LIST a mile long!
86 - 45*
|
|
|
monoloco
Elite Nomad
Posts: 6667
Registered: 7-13-2009
Location: Pescadero BCS
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by David K | | 'Elites' here are those who think or act mightier than the rest... as if their beliefs are the only ones that matter and all others must be
eliminated. Liberals tout themselves as all tolerant and open to other's belief's... As we see in this thread, the opposite is the case. I am not
religious, but I respect and am fascinated by religions. To not just enjoy the Catholics honoring one of their miracle makers (rather you believe or
not in miracles) as a cultural event is just very sad. For those 'elite' Nomads who do all they can to distract, spoil an educational thread, and
cause others to not participate (for not wanting the drama), is shameful. |
Is it not educational to have a
discussion that deviates from the official Catholic version of the mission period and explore the history from the view point of the native people?
The historical fact is that the Catholic church was responsible for much misery in the world and to gloss over that fact, and try to portray the
Jesuits and the Roman church as all sweetness and light, in any discussion of the mission period would be a disservice and constitute a white washing
of history. In order to understand history it needs to be analyzed from every angle and not limited simply to the "official" point of view, which most
often written by the victors and not the victims.
"The future ain't what it used to be"
|
|
|
DianaT
Select Nomad
Posts: 10020
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline
|
|
| Quote: Originally posted by David K | | '........To not just enjoy the Catholics honoring one of their miracle makers (rather you believe or not in miracles) as a cultural event is just very
sad. ....... |
I guess the Inquisition was also just a cultural event??
The Catholic Church is not a culture. Any religion is not a culture, it is a PART of a culture. In various and different forms, the Catholic Church
has become a part of the culture in many places --- it is different everywhere.
DK there are a lot of really good people who are Catholics who really enjoy their religion and even in their darkest hours, there have been good
people who were believers.
However, the history of the official church is a quite dark history that includes the destruction of cultures and the historical records, murder,
torture, persecutions, enslavement, on and on. For the most part it has been about power and money. Religions are interesting to study. And the
believers and the hierarchy are often very different.
And I do believe that Alex, the 10 year old who stood up against his people being demeaned is a real hero.
[Edited on 5-4-2015 by DianaT]
|
|
|
mtgoat666
Select Nomad
Posts: 17341
Registered: 9-16-2006
Location: San Diego
Member Is Offline
Mood: Hot n spicy
|
|
the catholic church has canonized many bad or controversial people. is suppose one more won't hurt.
|
|
|
tortuga
Nomad
Posts: 277
Registered: 8-11-2007
Location: Bellevue, Idaho or Los Barriles B.C.S.
Member Is Offline
Mood: Muy Despacio
|
|
Santo Junipero Serra
I am offended by the lack of knowledge the original poster has about the indigenous people of California . The following that I am going to post here
is from Wikipedia on the subject of the Chumash Indians . I have studied this culture myself and agree with the facts stated below . Surely the many
groups that occupied California before European contact have diverse lifestyles, HOWEVER THEY WERE NOT living meaningless lives .
Chumash environment before contact (1400 AD)[edit]
The Chumash resided between the Santa Ynez Mountains and the California coasts where numerous rivers and tributaries abound. Situated inside and
around the modern-day Santa Barbara region, the Chumash found themselves in a veritable bounty of resources. The tribe lived in an area composed of
three different environments: the interior, the coast, and the Northern Channel Islands.[6] These three provided a diverse array of materials to
support the Chumash lifestyle. The interior is composed of the land outside the coast and spanning the wide plains, rivers, and mountains. The coast
covers the cliffs and land close to the ocean and, in reference to resources gathered, the areas of the ocean from which the Chumash harvested, and
the Northern Channel Islands lie off the coast of the Chumash territory. All of the California coastal-interior has a Mediterranean climate due to the
incoming winds from the ocean. [7] The mild temperatures year-round save for winter made gathering easy; during the cold months, the tribespeople
harvested what they could and supplemented their diets with stored foods. What villagers gathered and traded during the seasons changed depending on
in which of the three environments they resided. [8] With coasts populated by masses of various species of fish and land densely covered by trees and
animals, the Chumash had a diverse array of food. Abundant resources and a winter rarely harsh enough to cause concern meant the tribe lived a
sedentary (meaning living in one place) lifestyle in addition to a subsistence existence. Villages in the three aforementioned areas contained remains
of sea mammals, indicating that trade networks existed for moving materials throughout the Chumash territory. [9] Such connections spread out the
land’s wealth, allowing the Chumash to live comfortably without agriculture.
Chumash diet before 1400 AD[edit]
Obviously, the closer a village is to the ocean, the greater its reliance on maritime resources. [10] Due to advanced canoe designs, coastal and
island people could procure fish and aquatic mammals from farther out. Shellfish were a good source of nutrition, both relatively easy to find and
abundant. Many of the favored varieties grew within tidal zones, areas close to the shore. [11] Shellfish grew in abundance during winter to early
spring; their proximity to shore would make collection easier since gatherers would not need to venture out too far. Some of the consumed species
included mussels, abalone, and a wide array of clams. Ocean animals such as otters and seals were thought to be the primary meal of coastal tribes
people, but recent evidence shows the aforementioned trade networks exchanged oceanic animals for terrestrial foods from the interior. Any village
could acquire fish, but the coastal and island communities specialized in catching not just smaller fish, but alsso the massive catches such as
swordfish. [12] This feat, difficult even for today’s technology, was made possible by the tomol plank canoe. Not only did its design allow for the
capture of deepwater fish, but it also facilitated the trade routes between villages. [13] Before contact with Europeans, coastal Chumash relied less
on terrestrial resources than they did on maritime; vice versa for interior Chumash. [14] Regardless, they both consumed similar land resources. Like
many other tribes, deer were the most important land mammal the Chumash pursued; deer were consumed in varying amounts across all regions, which
cannot be said for other terrestrial animals. Interior Chumash placed greater value on the deer, to the extent that they had unique hunting practices
for them. They dressed as deer and grazed alongside the animals until the hunters were in range to use their arrows. [15] Even Chumash close to the
ocean pursued deer, though in understandably fewer numbers, and what more meat the villages needed they acquired from smaller animals such as rabbits
and birds. Plant foods composed the rest of Chumash diet, especially acorns, which were the staple food for numerous reasons despite the work needed
to remove their inherent toxins. They could be ground into a paste both easy to eat and stored for years.[16] Coast live oak provided the best acorns;
their mush would be served usually unseasoned with meat and/or fish. [17]
Tortuga
[Edited on 5-8-2015 by tortuga]
|
|
|
David K
Honored Nomad
Posts: 64493
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline
Mood: Have Baja Fever
|
|
The Chumash were only is a small area of California, but had a vibrant society IMO. Too bad the other California or Baja California tribes weren't as
productive... or were they at one time and declined by the time the Spanish occupied the land?
|
|
|
LancairDriver
Super Nomad
Posts: 1587
Registered: 2-22-2008
Location: On the Road
Member Is Offline
|
|
There is no comparison between the level of civilization and standard of living between the Chumash and the Baja tribes. This is well documented.
|
|
|
sargentodiaz
Nomad
Posts: 259
Registered: 2-20-2013
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Member Is Offline
|
|
The Chumash were expert boat builders and sailors. They routinely visited the channel islands and some small temporary settlements were established on
them. In that the islands lack regular supplies of fresh water, they were only temporary.
There is no question that they had a vibrant society. But - it lacked a sense of community. Each family or clan fended for themselves. Those from the
mountains never went near those living along the shore. The only contact were raids to obtain young boys and girls to keep the blood lines from
becoming stagnant.
I cannot find anything about a belief in a Creator spirit or anything in their lives but a dread for death they knew was inevitable. Thus, when the
friars came with a promise of life after death, they did not need to be enslaved to seek conversion and life at the missions.
While I use Wikipedia but source material, it is but one source.
|
|
|
Osprey
Ultra Nomad
Posts: 3694
Registered: 5-23-2004
Location: Baja Ca. Sur
Member Is Offline
|
|
There you go again Sarge, You quit before and only came back to sell your Amazon book.
Now you show us more arrogance and twisted research by telling us non Christians then and now lead empty useless lives.
Vegas isn't far from California -- you can redeem yourself by a long visit at the California Historical Society which will hopefully open your eyes to
the splendor of proud people from Alaska southward whose lives paint a story of peaceful occupation and reverence for the land, the animals and their
own private spirits.
|
|
|
| Pages:
1
2
3
4 |
![[*]](images/xmbforum/default_icon.gif){kind=icon}
