BajaNomad
Not logged in [Login - Register]
Go To Bottom

Printable Version  
 Pages:  1  2  
Author: Subject: The Fight for San Quintin Bay
rts551
Select Nomad
*******




Posts: 6325
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 11-7-2017 at 04:06 PM


Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
Quote: Originally posted by BajaGringo  

These fishermen still operate their commercial fishing operations inside and around the bay and have no interest in seeing any development that would do anything to harm the bay.


but development will harm the land. every developer will tell you their real estate development will not harm the bay. i have never seen development in baja (or anywhere) that did not impact the adjacent waters.

it's a beautiful area, would be a shame to see it developed, which WILL happen if it goes back to unprotected status :no::no:

i do not profess to know the legal arguments. I just hope for preservation to win.


Time does not stand still goat. I think fondly of when I was a child and hoped to personally drive to the tip of Baja on the same road as my parents did.

In 1973 (the year I turned 16), they constructed and paved the final 300 miles (San Quintin-San Ignacio) of highway... in a way, destroying the 'natural' environment of the central Baja desert (and bulldozing flat, millions of cardon, cirio, and other species of native Baja vegetation and animal habitat. Yet, I never hear complaints from environmentalists about paving roads (where they want to drive their cars).

Progress happens, and just because your pet area gets developed doesn't make it any more wrong than if it were someone else's.


Just to be fair, environmentalists complain about paved roads all the time. Most recently in Baja, they stopped construction on 5 for almost a year.
View user's profile
rts551
Select Nomad
*******




Posts: 6325
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 11-7-2017 at 04:10 PM


The video was an excellent history of what happened in the San Quintin Valley. For a long time a had one of the plot maps for one of the "developments" that was going to occur in the Valley during the early 60's (close to where the Hotel is now). I donated it to the Museum a couple of years ago.
View user's profile
David K
Honored Nomad
*********


Avatar


Posts: 51245
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline

Mood: Have Baja Fever

[*] posted on 11-7-2017 at 04:51 PM


Quote: Originally posted by rts551  
The video was an excellent history of what happened in the San Quintin Valley. For a long time a had one of the plot maps for one of the "developments" that was going to occur in the Valley during the early 60's (close to where the Hotel is now). I donated it to the Museum a couple of years ago.


Did it look like this?





"So Much Baja, So Little Time..."

A NEW Baja Missions History book in 2016: http://oldmissions.com

My (over 40) Baja Bound Travel Adventure articles: https://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/

My Baja web site, to help you plan your adventure: http://VivaBaja.com

View user's profile Visit user's homepage
rts551
Select Nomad
*******




Posts: 6325
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 11-7-2017 at 04:56 PM


Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by rts551  
The video was an excellent history of what happened in the San Quintin Valley. For a long time a had one of the plot maps for one of the "developments" that was going to occur in the Valley during the early 60's (close to where the Hotel is now). I donated it to the Museum a couple of years ago.


Did it look like this?



No. Not even close. It was much more detailed including land owners surrounding the proposed development. You could see who usd to own all the small parcels that have since been purchased by the large farmers.
One detail that is long gone was a fresh water lake in the area.
View user's profile
rts551
Select Nomad
*******




Posts: 6325
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 11-7-2017 at 04:59 PM


The museum out at the old mill has it now. It used to be on display. Have not been there in a while.
View user's profile
David K
Honored Nomad
*********


Avatar


Posts: 51245
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline

Mood: Have Baja Fever

[*] posted on 11-7-2017 at 05:07 PM


OK, well my dad was given that map around 1971, I think... Plots around the bay being offered for investment by Tierra y Mar.
I penciled in the many airstrips and runway lengths around the bay back when I got the Airports of Baja book for Christmas, 1972




"So Much Baja, So Little Time..."

A NEW Baja Missions History book in 2016: http://oldmissions.com

My (over 40) Baja Bound Travel Adventure articles: https://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/

My Baja web site, to help you plan your adventure: http://VivaBaja.com

View user's profile Visit user's homepage
rts551
Select Nomad
*******




Posts: 6325
Registered: 9-5-2003
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 11-7-2017 at 05:17 PM


This map was very large (6 ft by 6ft or so) and detailed everything between what is now the hwy and the bay. Since it was 1961 all the parcels were farms or proposed subdivisions. Where the hotel is now was blocked out but not labeled...I suspect in anticipation of the paved road.
View user's profile
David K
Honored Nomad
*********


Avatar


Posts: 51245
Registered: 8-30-2002
Location: San Diego County
Member Is Offline

Mood: Have Baja Fever

[*] posted on 11-7-2017 at 06:14 PM


If you mean the 1974 El Presidente hotel location (now called the Hotel Mision Santa Maria), that was pretty close to Rafael Orendain's planned resort and airstrip (which is also close to Cielito Lindo).
What a mess this all became.




"So Much Baja, So Little Time..."

A NEW Baja Missions History book in 2016: http://oldmissions.com

My (over 40) Baja Bound Travel Adventure articles: https://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/

My Baja web site, to help you plan your adventure: http://VivaBaja.com

View user's profile Visit user's homepage
BajaGringo
Elite Nomad
******


Avatar


Posts: 3753
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
Member Is Offline

Mood: What's the temperature in the tanks today?

[*] posted on 11-8-2017 at 08:01 AM


Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  

i do not profess to know the legal arguments. I just hope for preservation to win.


OK, let me get this straight.

What you are saying is that you don't really care whether the fishermen have a constitutionally backed, historic legal right to these properties, it's more important to you that your eco-social agenda wins?

While I find that reprehensible, I suppose at least you are demonstrating much more honesty than Terra in that regard...




Join us on Facebook - facebook.com/groups/TalkBaja
Where everybody knows your name and nobody stays on topic. 30K+ Members...
View user's profile Visit user's homepage
watizname
Senior Nomad
***




Posts: 677
Registered: 8-7-2009
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 11-8-2017 at 09:23 AM
Gastons


I was wondering if this was part of the problem the Gastons had when they were developing the Old Mill a few years back. I fished there a few times when it first opened, and it seemed to be going great guns with lots of people and boats then new rooms and the restaurant, then it seemed they were having some problems and then they were gone. Just curious.



I yam what I yam and that\'s all what I yam.
View user's profile
BajaGringo
Elite Nomad
******


Avatar


Posts: 3753
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
Member Is Offline

Mood: What's the temperature in the tanks today?

[*] posted on 11-8-2017 at 09:48 AM


Quote: Originally posted by watizname  
I was wondering if this was part of the problem the Gastons had when they were developing the Old Mill a few years back. I fished there a few times when it first opened, and it seemed to be going great guns with lots of people and boats then new rooms and the restaurant, then it seemed they were having some problems and then they were gone. Just curious.


While I never had the opportunity to get to know him personally, I am very close to several of his friends and former neighbors around him and they all tell me that he wasn't reporting his income to Hacienda.

The Mexican version of the IRS reportedly came in with a team of auditors who stood by and recorded his business sales for a week and then calculated his past due tax bill based on an extrapolated estimate of income.

They tell me that he was simply unable to pay and ended up shutting down...




Join us on Facebook - facebook.com/groups/TalkBaja
Where everybody knows your name and nobody stays on topic. 30K+ Members...
View user's profile Visit user's homepage
fishbuck
Elite Nomad
******




Posts: 3497
Registered: 8-31-2006
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 11-8-2017 at 01:52 PM


Thank you all for responding. Infomation is coming out from many sources.
Keep in mind that Ron had mentioned that this case may go all the way to the Supreme Court of Mexico.
So it doesn't get anymore complicated than this.
Please keep following along. And keep the comments and info coming.
Anything worth having is worth fighting for.



[Edited on 11-8-2017 by fishbuck]




"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.

View user's profile
watizname
Senior Nomad
***




Posts: 677
Registered: 8-7-2009
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 11-9-2017 at 08:02 AM


Quote: Originally posted by BajaGringo  
Quote: Originally posted by watizname  
I was wondering if this was part of the problem the Gastons had when they were developing the Old Mill a few years back. I fished there a few times when it first opened, and it seemed to be going great guns with lots of people and boats then new rooms and the restaurant, then it seemed they were having some problems and then they were gone. Just curious.


While I never had the opportunity to get to know him personally, I am very close to several of his friends and former neighbors around him and they all tell me that he wasn't reporting hisincome to Hacienda.

The Mexican version of the IRS reportedly came in with a team of auditors who stood by and recorded his business sales for a week and then calculated his past due tax bill based on an extrapolated estimate of income.

They tell me that he was simply unable to pay and ended up shutting down...



Thanks Ron.




I yam what I yam and that\'s all what I yam.
View user's profile
BajaGringo
Elite Nomad
******


Avatar


Posts: 3753
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
Member Is Offline

Mood: What's the temperature in the tanks today?

[*] posted on 11-10-2017 at 10:09 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Hook  
So, all the land parcels in Pedregal are illegal?


Any sales made by Orendain outside of the boundaries of their concession plan map and outside of the 10 year time limit of their concession were illegal sales. Further complicating matters for the Orendain family was the fact they didn't even follow the specific instructions of their concession to record ALL sales made with the Secretary of Agrarian Land Reform so that National Land Titles could be issued. So essentially, the entire concession map returned to national land status at the end of their concession and is the root cause for decades of land squabbles around the area.

Why they didn't record the sales with the office of the Secretary? One can only guess but the attorney for the fishermen believes it was twofold.

1. To avoid having to pay for the national land fees.

2. They knew that their land sales contracts in the bay area were outside of the concession plan map and would be rejected.

SQ Concession Map.jpg - 247kB

[Edited on 11-10-2017 by BajaGringo]




Join us on Facebook - facebook.com/groups/TalkBaja
Where everybody knows your name and nobody stays on topic. 30K+ Members...
View user's profile Visit user's homepage
bajaguy
Select Nomad
*******




Posts: 8751
Registered: 9-16-2003
Location: Carson City, NV/Ensenada - Baja Country Club
Member Is Offline

Mood: must be 5 O'clock somewhere in Baja

[*] posted on 11-10-2017 at 10:53 AM


Ron - Once while staying/eating at the Old Mill many years ago, the bartender told me he was the son-in-law of Gaston and that Gaston was selling lots for home sites north of the bay. Do you know anything of this and the status (we did not purchase)

Quote: Originally posted by BajaGringo  

While I never had the opportunity to get to know him personally, I am very close to several of his friends and former neighbors around him and they all tell me that he wasn't reporting his income to Hacienda.

The Mexican version of the IRS reportedly came in with a team of auditors who stood by and recorded his business sales for a week and then calculated his past due tax bill based on an extrapolated estimate of income.

They tell me that he was simply unable to pay and ended up shutting down...
View user's profile
DianaT
Select Nomad
*******




Posts: 9999
Registered: 12-17-2004
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 11-10-2017 at 11:14 AM


Quote: Originally posted by bajaguy  
Ron - Once while staying/eating at the Old Mill many years ago, the bartender told me he was the son-in-law of Gaston and that Gaston was selling lots for home sites north of the bay. Do you know anything of this and the status (we did not purchase)



Gaston is dead and be glad you did not get involved with those "lots". I know gringos who did and they ended up suing him in the Mexican courts. They won. There is so much more, but since he is gone, enough said. He sure could talk a good game


First time we met him he as working on the Old Mill and complaining about his Mexican workers. Then we saw how he treated them, and they must have really needed the work to keep working for him!



[Edited on 11-10-2017 by DianaT]
View user's profile
BeemerDan
Nomad
**




Posts: 156
Registered: 1-13-2011
Location: Port Orchard Wa
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 11-11-2017 at 12:05 AM


Quote: Originally posted by DianaT  
Quote: Originally posted by bajaguy  
Ron - Once while staying/eating at the Old Mill many years ago, the bartender told me he was the son-in-law of Gaston and that Gaston was selling lots for home sites north of the bay. Do you know anything of this and the status (we did not purchase)



Gaston is dead and be glad you did not get involved with those "lots". I know gringos who did and they ended up suing him in the Mexican courts. They won. There is so much more, but since he is gone, enough said. He sure could talk a good game


First time we met him he as working on the Old Mill and complaining about his Mexican workers. Then we saw how he treated them, and they must have really needed the work to keep working for him!



[Edited on 11-10-2017 by DianaT][/rquote

9999 posts and you left us hanging, Do tell!:saint::lol:
View user's profile
BajaGringo
Elite Nomad
******


Avatar


Posts: 3753
Registered: 8-24-2006
Location: La Chorera
Member Is Offline

Mood: What's the temperature in the tanks today?

[*] posted on 11-11-2017 at 01:17 PM


Quote: Originally posted by DianaT  
Quote: Originally posted by bajaguy  

Ron - Once while staying/eating at the Old Mill many years ago, the bartender told me he was the son-in-law of Gaston and that Gaston was selling lots for home sites north of the bay. Do you know anything of this and the status (we did not purchase)

Gaston is dead and be glad you did not get involved with those "lots". I know gringos who did and they ended up suing him in the Mexican courts. They won. There is so much more, but since he is gone, enough said. He sure could talk a good game

First time we met him he as working on the Old Mill and complaining about his Mexican workers. Then we saw how he treated them, and they must have really needed the work to keep working for him!


As I had no direct contact with Al Gaston, I cannot say for sure but I did hear several stories of such offerings and although each story seemed to give a slightly different view of the events they seemed to agree that it was land that was from Ejido Chapala and that it was being offered by a couple of the ejidatarios with a promise of a 10% commission back to Mr. Gaston.

If they are the same parcels, those properties have been getting snatched up recently by BerryMex, the Baja division of Driscoll's.

There are 18 additional parcels around the bay, south of where Gaston was offering, and those are awaiting their national land titles as well. The fishermen have been assured that those titles will be forthcoming soon.

As far as how Gaston treated his employees, I could not say for sure but some evidence could be extracted from the local rumor that it was one of his employees who turned him into Hacienda for not declaring any of his income...

[Edited on 11-11-2017 by BajaGringo]




Join us on Facebook - facebook.com/groups/TalkBaja
Where everybody knows your name and nobody stays on topic. 30K+ Members...
View user's profile Visit user's homepage
fishbuck
Elite Nomad
******




Posts: 3497
Registered: 8-31-2006
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 11-11-2017 at 01:28 PM


Yeah BerryMex has eaten up much of Chapala. I believe they will consume that entire side of the bay at some point. All wind blown and long abandoned when I first arrived in that area. Didn't seem possible to grow things but people had obviously tried.
Fast forward to desal and giant white tents.
These guys are another "Los Pinos"
Berries require water more pure than humans require.
Berries yeild about 4 times the profit of tomatos.




"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.

View user's profile
fishbuck
Elite Nomad
******




Posts: 3497
Registered: 8-31-2006
Member Is Offline


[*] posted on 11-11-2017 at 11:10 PM


I'm sure this operation has expanded more by now. This was almost exactly 1 year ago.
This was completely barren the 1st time I went by in 2004-2005 except for a few ranch houses that you can see if you look close.




"A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for." J. A. Shedd.

View user's profile
 Pages:  1  2  

  Go To Top


For high speed satellite internet in Baja call +1.6197170810 - or click here to email sistemassatelitales@hotmail.com



Tijuana Walking Tours - on Meetup.com


 






All Content Copyright © 1997- Q87 International; All Rights Reserved.
Powered by XMB; XMB Forum Software © 2001-2014 The XMB Group 






"If it were lush and rich, one could understand the pull, but it is fierce and hostile and sullen. The stone mountains pile up to the sky and there is little fresh water. But we know we must go back if we live, and we don't know why." - Steinbeck, Log from the Sea of Cortez

 

"People don't care how much you know, until they know how much you care." - Ivan R. Misner, Ph.D

 

"You can easily judge the character of others by how they treat those who they think can do nothing for them or to them." - Malcolm Forbes

 

"Let others lead small lives, but not you. Let others argue over small things, but not you. Let others cry over small hurts, but not you. Let others leave their future in someone else's hands, but not you." - Jim Rohn







Thank you to Baja Bound Mexico Insurance Services for your long-term support of the BajaNomad.com Forums site.







Emergency Baja Contacts Include:

Desert Hawks; El Rosario-based ambulance transport; Emergency #: (616) 103-0262