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David K
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[*] posted on 6-22-2018 at 04:07 PM


Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
so, Dolores north of Loreto is a lost mission?


No... it was a visita (like Londó) that the Jesuits called a mission (probably to show how successful they were in the first few years. It was a few miles north of Loreto but I have yet to know exactly where... but I haven't devoted a lot into that mystery, yet! It is the reason that when a (true) mission was founded, to the south (in 1721) called Dolores, that it was often called Dolores del Sur to distinguish it from the Dolores near Loreto. Another Dolores that was proposed in the north, was named Dolores del Norte for the same reason... It became Santa Gertrudis when it was finally funded and opened.

A true (Jesuit) mission had a benefactor ($$$) and a priest, full time (but often with so few Jesuits available, the priest had to help out at other locations).




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[*] posted on 6-22-2018 at 04:14 PM


Quote: Originally posted by norte  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Harald, looking over the letters written by Padre Juan María Salvatierra I could glean some population figures...

In June 1698, the California colony had 22 Spaniards.

On July 9, 1699, Salvatierra wrote that the Loreto presidio consisted of 27 soldiers with more expected to arrive soon.

I found a population report for the number of non-native Californians in the year 1700, when there were only two missions...
March 1, 1700, from a letter by Padre Salvatierra:
66 persons: padres, soldiers, muleteers, Filipinos, Christian Indians from the mainland, two Spanish soldiers of fortune, besides women and children.

In a letter dated August 29, 1701, Salvatierra reports of being somewhat in danger because of only having 16 soldiers for protection as the others had to be dismissed for lack of money to pay them.




Where did you get these letters? and did you translate them?


They are published in several books, including the Dawson Baja California Travelers Series, written by different scholars and translated into English.
See my list of reference sources in the back of my book.
My Spanish is not good enough to enjoy reading Old Spanish or other European languages (German often). The Jesuits were from many countries. However, after their expulsion from the Western Hemisphere (1767-1768), missionaries were usually Spanish citizens... some born in Mexico.




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[*] posted on 6-22-2018 at 07:39 PM


OK - numbers:

1768, in the middle of the mission period fifteen settlements had a population over 100 or more. All but one were mission stations. Santa Ana, the exception, was a silver mining center south of La Paz.
100 La Purisima
100 Magdalena
1000 Santa Gertrudis
1500 San Borja
200 Santa Ana - mining
300 San Luis Gonzaga
300 Mulege
300 Santa Maria
50 La Paz
50 Todos Santos
500 Comondu
500 Dolores
500 Guadalupe
500 Loreto
500 San Javier
500 San Jose del Cabo
500 Santiago
800 San Ignacio


1776:

MISION DE NUESTRA SEÑORA DE LORETO: Con 101 Hombres y 237 Mujeres, Total de 338 Almas
MISION DE SANTA GERTRUDIS: Con 453 hombres y 353 Mujeres, Total de 872 Almas
MISION DE SAN F. XAVIER: Con 153 Hombres y 151 Mujeres, Total de 304 Almas
MISION DE NUESTRA SRA, DE GUADALUPE: Con 94 Hombres y 76 Mujeres, Total de 170 Almas
MISION DE SAN JOSE DE COMONDU: ( Hombres, Mujeres ( ? ) Total 269 Almas
MISION DE SAN IGNACIO: Con 144 Hombres y 156 Mujeres, Total de 300 Almas
MISION DE MULEGE: Con 96 Hombres y 74 Mujeres, Total de 170 Almas
MISION SAN FCO DE BORJA: Con 524 Hombres y 434 Mujeres, Total de 958 Almas
MISION SAN JOSE DEL CABO: Con 65 Hombres y 46 Mujeres, Total de 111 Almas
MISION SAN FERNANDO DE VELICATA: Con 309 Hombres y 279 Mujeres, Total de 606 Almas
MISION NUESTRA SRA, DE LA CONCEPCION (Purisima): Con 90 Hombres y 87 Mujeres, Total de 177 Almas
MISION DEL ROSARIO DE VIÑADACO: Con 115 Hombres y 32 Mujeres, Total de 207

for the ones of you who still read: http://www.baja101.com/Nomad/Settlements.pdf






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[*] posted on 6-23-2018 at 09:19 AM
Mission History References


In the back of my book, 'Baja California Land of Missions' is a list of the books in my personal collection that contains some or a lot of details about the missions and the missionaries... Here are the 4 pages with those books listed...








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[*] posted on 6-23-2018 at 09:39 AM


The journey around unexplored Baja as the settlement timeline unfolds is fascinating to imagine. People from the Philippines in Baja before 1700, amazing



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[*] posted on 6-23-2018 at 09:50 AM


Quote: Originally posted by TMW  
I would have to do some digging but I seem to remember reading what the Indian population at various missions was (probably round numbers) when first started and what it was at the end.

In Edward W. Vernon's book "Las Misiones Antiguas", The Spanish Missions of Baja California, he has a section in the front on the Indians. He states that derived statistics indicate that the 30,000-40,000 aboriginals who occupied the Jesuits territories on the arrivial of the Europeans, shrank to fewer than 7,000, as shown by the census taken at the Jesuits' expulsion in 1768.

[Edited on 6-22-2018 by TMW]


Thanks Tom....I was hoping that historical accounts of the missions in Baja would make some acknowledgement of the "downside" of the romantic vision of priests suffering the Camino Real lugging grapevine cuttings and their mission to civilize the native heathens.
I am not suggesting that David take a political/emotional stance with his passion for the missions stories.....just the facts.

San Borja is my favourite mission site....with Mulege coming in second...always impressed with the imported stone details.....and the great human effort to schlep all that rock...




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[*] posted on 6-23-2018 at 10:22 AM


Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Quote: Originally posted by norte  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Harald, looking over the letters written by Padre Juan María Salvatierra I could glean some population figures...

In June 1698, the California colony had 22 Spaniards.

On July 9, 1699, Salvatierra wrote that the Loreto presidio consisted of 27 soldiers with more expected to arrive soon.

I found a population report for the number of non-native Californians in the year 1700, when there were only two missions...
March 1, 1700, from a letter by Padre Salvatierra:
66 persons: padres, soldiers, muleteers, Filipinos, Christian Indians from the mainland, two Spanish soldiers of fortune, besides women and children.

In a letter dated August 29, 1701, Salvatierra reports of being somewhat in danger because of only having 16 soldiers for protection as the others had to be dismissed for lack of money to pay them.




Where did you get these letters? and did you translate them?


They are published in several books, including the Dawson Baja California Travelers Series, written by different scholars and translated into English.
See my list of reference sources in the back of my book.
My Spanish is not good enough to enjoy reading Old Spanish or other European languages (German often). The Jesuits were from many countries. However, after their expulsion from the Western Hemisphere (1767-1768), missionaries were usually Spanish citizens... some born in Mexico.


Since there has been the propensity to romanticize the Spanish conquest and occupation of the Baja peninsula... wouldn't you have to be careful of calling someone else's translation fact? After all, more and more information is coming available bout how harsh and abusive the missionaries actually were.
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[*] posted on 6-23-2018 at 12:07 PM


There were hundreds of missionaries over a span of over 150 years. In most cases, the Jesuits were protective of the Indians and it was the government soldiers that they had to deal with and created a program where they would have authority over the soldiers.

After 72 years, the Jesuits were removed and the peninsula came under Spanish civil authority with the arrival of the Franciscans... The government made the rules, the Indians began to be treated like tools for the king, and that is when you begin to read of forced lodging at the missions, punishment for desertion, and harsh penalties. In other words, when the government was in charge instead of the Jesuit Order, that is when the deal soured for the natives.




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[*] posted on 6-23-2018 at 12:24 PM


do I read an admiration for the liberal Jesuits between the lines?



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[*] posted on 6-23-2018 at 01:33 PM


Didn´t the reduction of native population have alot to do with the filthy euro diseases they (the missionaries) brought and the natives having 0 resistance to these?

[Edited on 6-23-2018 by chippy]
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[*] posted on 6-23-2018 at 03:34 PM


The pearl fishermen, and pirates were the first to introduce diseases, followed by the soldiers. The Jesuit missionaries tried to protect the natives.



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[*] posted on 6-23-2018 at 04:11 PM


For clarity, and respect for the history, to tell the story of indigenous people, let's make this a bit more complex...
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[*] posted on 6-23-2018 at 05:11 PM


the native population wasn't really seen as human. They were used as workforce. Who do you think build Camino Real or the mission buildings? The "elite workforce" (carpenters, soldiers) were brought from Spain or mainland. They all came with a wife. The padres did not want any interbreeding with the native population. The first families in Baja (the Verdugos, de la Tobas, Villavicencios, Arces etc) are very proud of the fact that they are "pure".
To prevent interbreeding the padres did not want any uncontrolled settlements aside from the missions (mining, pearl fishing etc).
There was one notable exception. Real de Santa Ana, a silver mine near San Antonio/El Triunfo. Money always wins.
"Real" was like the approval stamp of the king in Spain and a visible sign that you were under the protection of the crown.
Santa Ana became Real Santa Ana because the owners bought mercury at Hacienda Real y Caja de Guadalajara. What a brilliant move! Almost all miners needed mercury. With the hacienda (IRS) selling it, the Spanish government made sure that you also paid your taxes.




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[*] posted on 6-23-2018 at 05:57 PM


Quote: Originally posted by 4x4abc  
the native population wasn't really seen as human.


That is an opinion, of course... and it may be true of some of the padres, such a German Padre Jakob Baegert (San Luis Gonzaga) who had quite the impression of the Guaycura Natives if you read his book! Others, however, were very respectful of the Natives as being people.

The missions and Camino Real were for the Californians and part of converting them to be loyal citizens of the Kingdom of Spain. Their land was called the Kingdom of California as well as their tribes were called kingdoms. This would indicate a degree of respect... even though the intention was to convert them into Spanish subjects.

The Jesuits didn't want other mainlanders beyond the craftsmen and soldiers to enter California to protect their neophytes. The Real de Santa Ana was not a popular exception, with the Jesuits.

As I said above, when the Jesuits were removed, then the whole deal changed and the civil government took over and the welfare of the native Californians was shelved. I think it would be fair to say after 1768, their status was lowered.

[Edited on 6-24-2018 by David K]




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[*] posted on 6-23-2018 at 06:03 PM


The story of foreign Missionary influence on indigenous Baja peninsula people from 1400-1500 to present is just one dimension of the indigenous people. There are many more complex social stories, and many are still unfolding with evidence uncovered by hurricanes and the eye of the observer venturing to areas unexplored to identify their behaviors and patterns.

Obviously the story told by historians of spanish visitors and Missions building initiatives is very narrow in scope, probably with many misunderstandings, and focuses on a small number of people (less than a few hundred, perhaps less than 100) and their stories. The total number of Indians in BCS and Northern Baja is still being determined but certainly was more than one thousand in 1500 and likely many thousands in this period with great diversity including Islenos, Perico, Kumeyaay, Cochimí, Cocopá, Kiliwa, Guaycura, Pai Pai and perhaps Seri. They had a different life from ours, and were very complex and intelligent so its hard to relate unless you open your mind, or perhaps identify with the life and imagine your life here at that time and what would you do and why. Of course there are many related Mestizo (mixed) people today who retain their heritage and cultural influence, perhaps it's possible to live in the remote area or islands as some have done and assimilate some aspect of their lives. To know their history one would need to sit still and open your eyes and look around and imagine what their life is like, the tools and locations and behavior will become obvious and before you know it the stories will shout out from the land and ocean and tools/artifacts will appear. so much evidence exists but is unreported. Perhaps you will leave the evidence of tools and artifacts just as they did because it doesn't help to carry tools from where you need them to another location where you don't.

Today, in 2018 we have a very short written history of mission influence by a small number of authors perhaps use your eyes, touch and imagination and the whole complex history of indigenous people in Baja will reveal itself which continues today.


I'n excited for DK's 50-100,000 year history of Baja coming soon to a book store near you!

paul 157.jpg - 71kB

[Edited on 6-24-2018 by gnukid]
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[*] posted on 6-23-2018 at 06:15 PM


I hope my book and writings inspire others to go to the mission sites and absorb the energy and sensations. To some, they are just locations with stumps of adobe to great churches built in a harsh land... to me, they are windows into the past of extreme human activity in a place so harsh and so remote. To imagine there were hundreds to thousands of native people, can be difficult. We are so fortunate the events were documented by those who lived at the missions. It is unfortunate that the Indians did not have a written language so that we could learn their thoughts on these events. Only the Indians of the north have been quoted, such as Chief Jatiñil in regards to the missions of Descanso and Guadalupe (1834-1839).

Edit, because of gnu's edit: My book deals with the period of recorded history in California (Baja) from 1533-1855... You can look to other books for pre-history.

[Edited on 6-24-2018 by David K]




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[*] posted on 6-23-2018 at 06:44 PM


Dk,
You should read the bio of Ishi.
And while you are at it, might as well drink a beer or 3 and watch Apocolypto, eh?

I think the churches throughout Latin America white washed their early histories. The truth is that most all Europeans felt themselves superior to the heathens, and history shows that prejudice results in mistreatment.... universal story, even if the padres wrote differently in their memoirs.




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[*] posted on 6-24-2018 at 05:49 AM


Quote: Originally posted by David K  
I liked Apocalypto... Interesting you mentioned it, as it showed correctly how the Indians killed each other in such savage violence!


Um, it was a Hollywood movie, the violence was over the top because that’s what sells.

Quote: Originally posted by David K  

Again, "most Europeans" were not the 16 Jesuits who were in California so I ask that you not generalize at least until you read more of what the Jesuits were thinking and doing in California.


Ya, sure you betcha!




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[*] posted on 6-24-2018 at 06:11 AM


The natives frequently were at war, took slaves, killed women and children. That a Hollywood movie illustrated reality instead of the 'New-think' habit of painting a picture of a gentle people in harmony with Nature until white man brought evil to the Americas.

Anyway, I started this thread not to debate a Mel Gibson film, but to put some statistical facts out for review. Do you have any facts to share on the 27 missions on the peninsula... those backed up with some documentation?




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[*] posted on 6-24-2018 at 11:40 AM


Quote: Originally posted by David K  
.... Do you have any facts to share on the 27 missions on the peninsula... those backed up with some documentation?



David,

Two minutes on Google for a starter....you corrected a previous poster with the disclaimer his post was "an opinion"...here are some more...

https://www.ncronline.org/blogs/faith-and-justice/junipero-serra-saint-or-not (too lengthy to cut and paste)

https://www.livescience.com/52230-why-serra-canonization-is-controversial.html

https://newsela.com/read/lib-california-missions-native-americans/id/36825/




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