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Author: Subject: Missions, just the FACTS, a project...
motoged
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[*] posted on 6-24-2018 at 12:10 PM


Quote: Originally posted by David K  
The natives were human, so if someone sees them as not human, isn't that an opinion???

Google is not the writings and books from the 1600s to now, is it?

Anyway, glad you are interested in learning about Baja's past!



So dismissive, David....:no:

I thought for a minute you might be open to the subject from an unbiased research perspective....damn, another wasted minute...




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[*] posted on 6-24-2018 at 12:59 PM


The Spanish Inquisition was in full force during much of the period the missions were built. All non-Catholics were considered to be guilty of heresy. First and foremost, the missionaries were evangelists. Their job was to convert the native population to Catholicism, and to say they were intolerant of those who resisted would be an understatement. Certainly, the Jews and Muslims in Spain found themselves in dire straits.

I don't know how forceful the Catholic missionaries in Baja were, but their primary goal was to convert the indigenous people to Christianity and eliminate their traditional religious practices. Most unfortunate in my book.




[Edited on 6-24-2018 by SFandH]




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[*] posted on 6-24-2018 at 03:22 PM
population of indians at each mission


There are several records of the number of Indians within the jurisdiction of each mission, but one difficulty in understanding them is that, whenever a new mission was activated, groups of Indians nearest the new location would be transferred from the previously existing mission. For example, when Padre Luyando finally was able to come to live permanently and found the mission in San Ignacio twelve of the rancherias to the north of Mission Guadalupe were ceded to the new mission. Padre Luyando came with nine mounted soldiers, by the way.

1730: Padre Luyando speaks of a population of 1,249 in the mission jurisdiction, mostly in the surrounding rancherias. Half of this population dies in 1731 during an epidemic of bloody dysentery. Also in 1731 a conflict with a non-christian rancheria is resolved and the new group is added to the mission jurisdiction. Then in 1732 Padre Taraval brings in a small group of Indians from Cedros Island, where 3/4ths of the population had recently died of smallpox, but the newcomers prove to be very sensitive to disease and most die in an epidemic.

You can see how difficult it is to formulate a population statistic for the missions. In 1743 1,196 Indians are living in the Mission San Ignacio community. (Padre Sistiaga, quoted in "Jesuit Relations" by Burris, page 114.) In 1745 750 Indians estimated to be in the population. In 1752 Padre Jorge Retz goes north to found Mission Santa Gertrudis and several rancherias north of San Ignacio are transferred to the jurisdiction of the new mission.

In 1752 1,147 Indians live in the mission San Ignacio jurisdiction; in 1762 838 Indians; in 1768 750 Indians; in 1771 558 Indians. In 1772 433 Indians of San Ignacio die of tifus and malaria. (About one third of the populations of Missions San Borja, Santa Gertrudis and Santa Rosalia de Mulege also die this year.)

In 1774 305 Indians live in the Mission San Ignacio area. Many have deserted the missions during the confusions of the expulsion of the Jesuits, brief tenure of the Franciscans, the taking of an unusual amount of the product of the mission to supply Padre Serra's expedition, and arrival of the Dominicans. In 1782 241 Indians are estimated for the mission population. In 1787 273 souls, no soldiers, one missionary. In 1790 216 Indians; in 1794 169 Indians; in 1798 133 Indians; in 1800 130 Indians; in 1808 75 Indians.



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[*] posted on 6-24-2018 at 05:12 PM


Fantastic information Juanita, thank you for your contributions.

Several of the rancherias north of San Ignacio were baptized by Padre Consag and placed (on paper) into the records of a mission called "Dolores del Norte" many years before a new mission could be established to the north.

When the new mission was finally founded, (by Georg Retz in 1752), the name was changed to Santa Gertrudis, to honor the wife of the benefactor. It has quite the story and is one I detailed in my book.

Writers in the 1900s thought Dolores del Norte was a "lost mission" since it was in the list of Jesuit missions in 1745 and on the Jesuit map of 1757. An old map even contains both names, Santa Gertrudis and Dolores del Norte. Even INAH made the mistake and called the adobe visita ruins in San Pablo Canyon, Dolores del Norte, as some writers had been doing.

Folks on the Erle Stanley Gardner expeditions of the 1960s came to believe the old stone walls at San Francisco de la Sierra were the lost mission when the villagers here saying the walls were "Dolores".

Great stuff all! Keep on learning, the truth is out there!

[Edited on 6-25-2018 by David K]




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[*] posted on 6-24-2018 at 06:23 PM


Quote: Originally posted by motoged  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
The natives were human, so if someone sees them as not human, isn't that an opinion???

Google is not the writings and books from the 1600s to now, is it?

Anyway, glad you are interested in learning about Baja's past!



So dismissive, David....:no:

I thought for a minute you might be open to the subject from an unbiased research perspective....damn, another wasted minute...


Some people use google to look for "facts" to back up what their preconceived notions already are. Its a sickness that is growing in the USA.
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[*] posted on 6-24-2018 at 07:12 PM


Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Yes... or they can buy books, the old fashion way, but works without cell or wifi signal!


Or read books in library :lol:




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[*] posted on 6-24-2018 at 08:33 PM


This whole missions and religion talk reminded me of a time I was returning from Costa Rica some odd 20 years ago. On the flight home there was a large group of folks eating mostly vegan meals. Well one of the group , a man of around 25 year old, was sitting next to me. So being the inquisitive kinda guy I am proceeded to inquire " just what the heck Ya'll up to ???
He proceeded to tell me that they were a Church group on a mission to build a church for a town that didn't have one. I thought " Wow that is really darn nice of them"!

Then upon future discussion I find out that they are building the church to covert the native people into "their" brand of religion.

So then I couldn't help myself but to tell the guy that he just lost ALL the goodness that I thought they were doing and that they were merely doing a very selfish act...

Now if they were building a school THAT would be a Noble cause...

[Edited on 6-25-2018 by Paco Facullo]




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[*] posted on 6-24-2018 at 08:58 PM


That is what leaders do. Convince others to do what they want done. Sometimes for the good, sometimes for the bad and sometimes somewhere in between. FDR convinced a nation that all we had to fear was fear itself.
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[*] posted on 6-24-2018 at 09:03 PM


Many homeless centers and shelters have a religious element involved in their operations. We'll feed you and give you a bed to sleep now join us for prayer and sing a few gospel songs. I'm not saying it's right or wrong since they do good work for the poor and homeless.
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[*] posted on 6-25-2018 at 10:52 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Juanita  
There are several records of the number of Indians within the jurisdiction of each mission, but one difficulty in understanding them is that, whenever a new mission was activated, groups of Indians nearest the new location would be transferred from the previously existing mission.



Thanks for the info....it would be informative if DK included such info in updated editions in Baja mission book(s).:light:




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[*] posted on 6-25-2018 at 11:14 AM


I would love to have every little fact in my book, but then it would be so big that it would no longer be easy to have at hand, in your glove box, for example.

I put in the basics of each mission plus addition interesting history about that mission or the people involved. I have listed every missionary who has been recorded as serving at the missions in the book.

At around 230 pages and so many photos and maps, it really does serve the purpose I had intended and apparently, it pleases those who have read it. I have had 5 printings to fulfill the demand by my distributor (Sunbelt Publications) as well as direct sales by my publishing company (M & E BOOKS) at www.oldmissions.com

Besides the reviews on the back of my book from Osprey, Graham, and GregN, there are reviews on Amazon, as well:

From E.D. in 2017: 5.0 out of 5 stars

"A book that captures not just the history of a place, but its heart as well!
Nothing defines California as significantly or emotionally as the missions and history of the old El Camino Real mission trail. The mission trail, and California history, starts almost a thousand miles south of the California border in Loreto Mexico, in Baja California; indeed, the California peninsula was the only California for at least 230 years before "Baja" was added to the name in 1769. The author, David Kier, does a remarkable job of chronicling the Jesuit, Franciscan, and Dominican missionaries and the missions they founded in Baja California. "Baja California Land of Missions" is superbly written and researched, with over a hundred photos, maps, and drawings. Kier's summary of the nearly 200 missionaries who served in Baja California between 1683 and 1855, is a unique, and incredibly useful, historical resource. Designed to fit nicely in a pocket, or console compartment - this is a "must-have" guide for any one traveling the Baja Peninsula, especially for the adventurer and explorer who takes delight in veering off the pavement, and into the wild ... and into the lives and dreams of men of the past.

In one slim volume David Kier has captured, not just the history of a place, but its heart as well."

From C.J. in 2018: 5.0 out of 5 stars

"Must have book for Baja travelers interested in History!
found the book to be a well researched and documented history of the Missions of Baja California. Lots of interesting information, corrections of older research, etc. well photographed, often with a photo history series dating back to the 1530s. I also found amazing that I got immediate responses from the author when I contacted him asking for more information.
If you are a Baja traveler, and interested in History, this should be one of your go-to books!

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, I must have done something right? I sure worked hard enough on it!

Now, this thread is for a different book, a THIRD EDITION of the 2012 book I co-authored with Max Kurillo, 'The Old Missions of Baja & Alta California, 1697-1834' about the founding of ALL the California missions, in the correct order they were founded, with photos and just a bit of history.




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[*] posted on 6-25-2018 at 12:03 PM


David,
I understand that adding another page or two to acknowledge such FACTS would certainly make the book too big to put in a glove compartment in a vehicle. I am sure the praise of Nomads is well-deserved for your efforts with your sharing your love of Baja mission history.

And I understand the incomplete (by omission) full story of the mission project's impact on indigenous populations tarnishes its charm.

Oh well.....your post started with an invitation:
"As with my other projects, I value the (serious) input of my Nomad friends."

My input was "serious". Why ask for factual input and then justify ignoring it?

As yer buddy says...."Sad"




[Edited on 6-25-2018 by motoged]




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[*] posted on 6-25-2018 at 01:11 PM


Ged, there are 27 missions and almost half of them were in more than one location. It would be 1-2 pages per mission, just fyi.

One of the purposes of the book is to provide basic facts like this.

If you u2u or email me your address, I will (as a friend) gift you a copy so you can appreciate what I have published. My book includes my lifetime of interest and my personal need to get the facts correct. As I have stated before, most if not all the books on the Baja missions have errors, often errors started with one author and simply copied in the next book written. I cannot guarantee my book is free of any errors but my goal was to correct those common errors made either on accident or intentionally. Whenever possible, I looked to the writings of people who were alive at the missions for the dates, names, and other details. Next, I went to the oldest research work that would have gleaned the mission papers in the 1800s. Next, I found a source for Dominican records that have never before been published in English to provide details on the Dominican missions never known to have existed in print, before.

No, my book does not have everything about the missions or lost mission legends, but I think it has more than any other single book you can buy and it will be more accurate, too.

It costs extra to mail a package to Canada, but in the hopes of peace and understanding, I will be happy to.

Here is the cover, front and back that pretty clearly says what is in the book and other authors' comments about it:





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[*] posted on 6-25-2018 at 02:28 PM


David,
Thanks for the free book offer...I will pass on that.





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[*] posted on 6-25-2018 at 03:40 PM


I just hate it when looking at books you find a "club" who reviews each others books with 5 stars. Turns me off.
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[*] posted on 6-25-2018 at 03:59 PM


Quote: Originally posted by motoged  
David,
Thanks for the free book offer...I will pass on that.



STILL throwing darts Ged?




Jobs or mobs..that was easy enough
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[*] posted on 6-25-2018 at 04:24 PM


Quote: Originally posted by norte  
I just hate it when looking at books you find a "club" who reviews each others books with 5 stars. Turns me off.


Those reviews were from Amazon... you have to buy the book from Amazon, not a club.




"So Much Baja, So Little Time..."

Learn about the discovery of Baja, the Missions, and people who built them: http://oldmissions.com

Over 60 Baja Bound Travel Adventure articles: https://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/

Visit Viva Baja, to help you plan your next adventure: http://VivaBaja.com

My 2018 Maps: http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=88771
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[*] posted on 6-25-2018 at 04:36 PM


TW mentioned Dr. Jackson's book earlier... He is a Baja Nomad (academicanachist) and a friend of mine. He has published several books on Latin American history.



Jackson's book was one of my sources for data and his book is in my list of references for those seeking additional information, not found in my book.
=========================================================

Some of the subjects of the comments by Nomads was addressed in the front pages of my book... Please read the Preface, in particular, the third paragraph:





[Edited on 6-25-2018 by David K]




"So Much Baja, So Little Time..."

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[*] posted on 6-25-2018 at 05:00 PM


David, I was shocked to see you offering him a free book (speaks to your character). I would have charged him triple plus $50 for shipping.
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[*] posted on 6-25-2018 at 05:30 PM


So Dave, I wonder what your mission is?


I think of the missions as still somewhat alive. If you are a Californian or a Baja Californian it's still part of your life whether you realize it or not.
It's very important to understand. To study. Many lessons left to us to understand. Insight to be had.
Many of the palms planted by the Padres still bear fruit.
Think about that a little...




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