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Author: Subject: Missions, just the FACTS, a project...
motoged
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[*] posted on 6-25-2018 at 08:37 PM


Quote: Originally posted by DaliDali  
Quote: Originally posted by motoged  
David,
Thanks for the free book offer...I will pass on that.



STILL throwing darts Ged?


DD,
Your dart doesn't have a point...my comments on this thread are in the spirit with history being presented as factual as possible based on available information....but as a vocal right winger, that might seem like an odd concept to you.



[Edited on 6-26-2018 by motoged]




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[*] posted on 6-26-2018 at 04:56 AM


Quote: Originally posted by motoged  
Quote: Originally posted by DaliDali  
Quote: Originally posted by motoged  
David,
Thanks for the free book offer...I will pass on that.



STILL throwing darts Ged?


DD,
Your dart doesn't have a point...my comments on this thread are in the spirit with history being presented as factual as possible based on available information....but as a vocal right winger, that might seem like an odd concept to you.



[Edited on 6-26-2018 by motoged]

So dismissive, David....:no:

I thought for a minute you might be open to the subject from an unbiased research perspective....damn, another wasted minute...

DK explained to you more than once how it all works, as he knew it, you can't except it.....all because of his political views.
You know it, I know it......it is what you do. Truly Sad

Vocal right wing vs vocal left wing.....ok got that Ged.




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[*] posted on 6-26-2018 at 05:17 AM


Quote: Originally posted by motoged  
Quote: Originally posted by David K  
The natives were human, so if someone sees them as not human, isn't that an opinion???

Google is not the writings and books from the 1600s to now, is it?

Anyway, glad you are interested in learning about Baja's past!



So dismissive, David....:no:

I thought for a minute you might be open to the subject from an unbiased research perspective....damn, another wasted minute...


It should be noted that there is an art to designing a book that is publishable. A little research will inform most that there are certain body content considerations (63,000 word) that attract publishers. Then there is the general readership potential where subject matter is strong. As well there is something to be said about the authors' own spirit to come through and the license they take advantage of to portray that.

Failure to understand the aspects of potential publication even if self publishing will sink any authors work at the query level. Maybe trying to write a manuscript would give a better level of understanding to David's work as it is. Or ignorance is OK to.

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[*] posted on 6-26-2018 at 06:46 AM


Quote: Originally posted by Enrique2012  
David, I was shocked to see you offering him a free book (speaks to your character). I would have charged him triple plus $50 for shipping.


I try my best to make peace and clearly there is a misunderstanding of my motives or perhaps just the events in history. Ged and I exchanged u2u messages and he just doesn't want any books on the missions, what he has seen in Baja is enough for him and there is no need to know the dates, people, or events that caused them to be built. I respect that.

Because what happened in the past was bad (especially by today's standards), does that mean we stop teaching history? Is it not better to know what happened than to pretend it didn't happen or rewrite events to falsely portray what happened? For some, I hope there is some interest in why, who, how, when. For others, there is no such need.

The mission sites and buildings in Baja are artifacts and monuments to human endeavors in this peninsula that even today is so harsh and difficult for many. That is what people see and want to know more about. That is what my book (and others before) write about.

If not the Spanish, some other nationality would have arrived on California's shores and brought their standards and diseases... it has happened elsewhere. Sad but true. I just wanted the facts as best as they are known to be accurate.

Now, while this has been quite a sidebar on my current book, Baja California Land of Missions, the purpose of the post is to condense details for the future book, a third edition of The Old Missions of Baja & Alta California.

Thank you!




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[*] posted on 6-26-2018 at 06:49 AM


Quote: Originally posted by fishbuck  
So Dave, I wonder what your mission is?


I think of the missions as still somewhat alive. If you are a Californian or a Baja Californian it's still part of your life whether you realize it or not.
It's very important to understand. To study. Many lessons left to us to understand. Insight to be had.
Many of the palms planted by the Padres still bear fruit.
Think about that a little...


See the Preface page I posted above your question.
Yes, you are correct. I feel a connection as a Californian and since Baja was California first, that is where I seem to be rooted. I wish I could live there rather than just visit.
I admire your future, Mike!




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[*] posted on 6-26-2018 at 08:13 AM
Now, back to the topic...


For the adobe ruins, in some cases I have the most recent year there was documented work. For example, at San Borja, the Franciscans added a new church building so the adobe there dates back to 1773 during the Franciscan's time in Baja (1768-1773). However, the Jesuits began the adobe complex in 1759, when San Borja was a visita of Mission Santa Gertrudis. San Borja didn't become a mission until 1762.

I am thinking instead of 1773 when the adobe work was completed, maybe add also when it was begun (1759)?

Santa Catalina was another mission that had adobe building before it became a mission. See, interesting, right?




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[*] posted on 6-26-2018 at 10:32 AM


Quote: Originally posted by David K  
.....
I try my best to make peace and clearly there is a misunderstanding of my motives or perhaps just the events in history. Ged and I exchanged u2u messages and he just doesn't want any books on the missions, what he has seen in Baja is enough for him and there is no need to know the dates, people, or events that caused them to be built. I respect that.....


My response to David's kind offer of a free book via U2U:

"David,
I passed on your offer as I simply don't have a strong interest in missions anywhere....but am knowledgeable and curious about history in a general sense.

I have visited adobe ruins in Baja, most of the standing missions (not Gertrudis....yet), and numerous churches on mainland, stone ruins on mainland Mexico, and Mayan ruins in Guatemala and Honduras...some great architecture and stained glass, but I just can't get past the oppression institutionalized by religions. As such, I use my voice to speak about what I consider to be injustice....be it religious, political, or social.

I believe it would be practical and possible for you to acknowledge the impact of missionary zeal on indigenous people in Baja by contacting the poster who responded to the question I asked you re: historical fact, follow up on the sources, and respect the Indians as much as the missionaries by including such info in upcoming editions....and talks you give.

I am sure an additional few pages of such historical fact wouldn't be a huge challenge to research and send to the presses.

Thanks for your offer again."

I respect David's work and passion for Baja history, mapping, and promotion....and was hoping his request that started this tread might result in some acknowledgement of the impact missions had on indigenous peoples of the Californias (Baja in point)....that's all.
Yes, he and I view the world through different political lenses and we have, over the years, had a few U2U's that were civil....







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[*] posted on 6-26-2018 at 10:41 AM


if we just had a bigger glove box.........
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[*] posted on 6-26-2018 at 12:20 PM


Quote: Originally posted by Paco Facullo  
This whole missions and religion talk reminded me of a time I was returning from Costa Rica some odd 20 years ago. On the flight home there was a large group of folks eating mostly vegan meals. Well one of the group , a man of around 25 year old, was sitting next to me. So being the inquisitive kinda guy I am proceeded to inquire " just what the heck Ya'll up to ???
He proceeded to tell me that they were a Church group on a mission to build a church for a town that didn't have one. I thought " Wow that is really darn nice of them"!

Then upon future discussion I find out that they are building the church to covert the native people into "their" brand of religion.

So then I couldn't help myself but to tell the guy that he just lost ALL the goodness that I thought they were doing and that they were merely doing a very selfish act...

Now if they were building a school THAT would be a Noble cause...



Paco, that's just so rude to tell a missionary that they were doing a very selfish act, especially if you know the word of Jesus, and what he did when Jesus saw two brothers fishing in the lake, and then told them to follow him and bring the net to fish for people.

The same thing in Matthew 28:19.

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit."

I also support, " Habitat for Humanity," who lives by the words in the Old Testament," If a brother living near you becomes poor, you must provide for him."

I understand where you are coming from Paco, and non of these religious groups are perfect, and it does sometimes pains me to see their recruitment of the so-called heathens to their religion, but their hearts are usually in the right place, and their good usually out weighs the bad.

That said, I believe with the Jesuits, in Baja and Mexico, the bad outweighed the good, by a long shot, and while some historians try to separate the Jesuits, Franciscan monks, and the Catholic church from the Spanish government,and point fingers at the Spanish as being the evil ones and say the Jesuits were only trying to help the local indigenous Indian population, that was mostly false, and both groups of mostly Spanish white men, from the government or church, tried to enslave the local population, and ended up decimating the local population with diseases and the ones who lived had their spirit killed.







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[*] posted on 6-27-2018 at 06:14 AM
A chapter, as a sample...


Okay, I think as long as there is going to be a discussion on the missions and if I have provided enough data, included on the native Indians, to those of you who do not have my book... Here is Mission #12 (1730):








[In the 2018/ 5th printing of my book, the bottom photo was replaced with one I took in 2017 at the Santa Rosa site.]




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[*] posted on 6-27-2018 at 08:01 AM


Quote: Originally posted by David K  
Okay, I think as long as there is going to be a discussion on the missions and if I have provided enough data, included on the native Indians, to those of you who do not have my book... Here is Mission #12 (1730):








[In the 2018/ 5th printing of my book, the bottom photo was replaced with one I took in 2017 at the Santa Rosa site.]


You are still relying on documentation that was written to justify an occupation.
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[*] posted on 6-27-2018 at 09:18 AM


There is no intention on my part to change the facts documented in order to be "pc". This is the history, and yes, it was an occupation.
I guess, for you, the question is, can you handle the truth? If it isn't pretty it still doesn't mean it didn't happen.
I reported on what the documents said what happened, not if it was good or bad. That is up to the reader to decide.







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[*] posted on 6-27-2018 at 09:36 AM


Quote: Originally posted by David K  
There is no intention on my part to change the facts documented in order to be "pc". This is the history, and yes, it was an occupation.
I guess, for you, the question is, can you handle the truth? If it isn't pretty it still doesn't mean it didn't happen.
I reported on what the documents said what happened, not if it was good or bad. That is up to the reader to decide.





as usual....your intention is perfectly clear david :rolleyes:
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[*] posted on 6-27-2018 at 09:48 AM


As is yours! :light: :lol:



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[*] posted on 6-27-2018 at 09:50 AM


David,
I don't see anywhere where posters are asking you to make a value judgement regarding the missionarys' impact on indigenous peoples in Baja....rather, some have encouraged you to use unbiased and /or range of research sources to address this part of the history....

I don't see the suggestion being about "political correctness"....but your bent on this suggests you may have a bias "politically"....and have difficulty handling "the truth".

It appears that your rhetoric may be showing such bias.

You could welcome the suggestions offered in response to your leading post rather than rationalize/justify your decision to not quantify (not qualify) the impact of missions.

Should you recognize the value of objective research from a range of sources, you could display such a lack of bias by including such evidence.

Just sayin' .....




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[*] posted on 6-27-2018 at 10:05 AM


For the love of GAWD.....

All this happened 300 years ago....
Invaders invaded.......that is what they did.

England, Spain, Portugal and France.

So now lets reopen the history books, get out a pen and rearrange all of their notes of these "invaders" and to dig down on what their true motives were.

And lay all the blame on DK for some vague, bias based reasons for overlooking it all.

Insanity.....




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[*] posted on 6-27-2018 at 10:09 AM


It is insanity to NOT learn from our history. If not accurately representing history in reporting it....what is that about?

Any comments are not a personal attack on DK, but perhaps on an approach to selling history.

No one wants history to be changed....just accurately reported.





[Edited on 6-27-2018 by motoged]

[Edited on 6-27-2018 by motoged]




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[*] posted on 6-27-2018 at 10:14 AM


Ged, the harp by some is on a book already done... it is not going to be re-written after a successful run with 5 printings. This thread was originally a way for me to get an idea of how a 3rd edition of The Old Missions of Baja & Alta California book could standardize the data on the missions. It is Max Kurillo's project for Sunbelt distribution.

I will be happy to tell him you guys on Nomad think the missionaries were horrible people who are responsible for mass genocide and want the narrative of the book changed. Max is 88 years old, so don't count on it... I am having a hard enough time just getting the updates to the Baja missions (my part) revised as there is more details I have learned of since 2012 when I helped him on that book, from when I wrote my book in 2015 on just the Baja missions.

My book (Baja California Land of Missions) is condensed data and stories from all the books and letters back to the 1600s plus my mission (and lost mission) discoveries and modern travel details. There is no political or religious bias from me. The bias from the Jesuits, Franciscans, Dominicans, and the Spanish government is obvious in their writings but that does not change names, dates, or locations which my book provides (less the errors of past books).

Max Kurillo is also not religious or has any more special motives than to share his excitement for the events and locations of the past that we can view today. Have you seen him with Huell Howser on TV?




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[*] posted on 6-27-2018 at 10:24 AM
Get This Book!


Those of you who want to read of the sad loss of Indian life... a true genocide... Get Baja Nomad member academicanchist's book, please!
I used Jackson's book as a source for population numbers (which are in my book for some of the missions) as well as older sources which I have that Jackson also used for his book...





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[*] posted on 6-27-2018 at 10:39 AM


Quote: Originally posted by motoged  
It is insanity to NOT learn from our history. If not accurately representing history in reporting it....what is that about?

Any comments are not a personal attack on DK, but perhaps on an approach to selling history.

No one wants history to be changed....just accurately reported.

[Edited on 6-27-2018 by motoged]

[Edited on 6-27-2018 by motoged]


We have learned from history Ged.....the invaders of 300 years ago don't invade anymore.

This is one person's account, based on his research, of how it all went down and drawn from those on the ground at the time.

If your all wound up on getting it "accurate".....research and write your own published version. What's that all about?

It is impossible to dig into someone's head who trod the Baja 300 years ago and "accurately" make a call about their real intentions.
It's only from an opinion of some that there were indeed......dastardly in those intentions or not.

Yes you were very "submissive" and contrite.....if not down right snarky.
All because your slant on DK's political held views does not mirror your own. You know it....I know it.

Not a personal attack?.......pifff





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