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Author: Subject: Missions, just the FACTS, a project...
motoged
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[*] posted on 6-27-2018 at 10:46 AM


Whatever :rolleyes:



Don't believe everything you think....
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JoeJustJoe
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[*] posted on 6-27-2018 at 02:09 PM


I would love to read David K's book, and it looks like he put in a lot of work into this subject, and he should be proud of his work.

I don't mind a little sugar coating of history, in regards to Baja history, the missions, Jesuits,Franciscan monks, or even Columbus, but as the years go on the alternative views, from the Latin Americas perceptives should be put out there starting in High School, and the older history books should be retired if they are not updated.

For example, Christopher Columbus, is not celebrated in Latin America, like he is in the USA, and even in the US, we are moving away of treating him like an explorer hero, and many see Columbus, as an evil villain.

Here is a good article from the "Guardian" that's an respectable news outlet, and the article doesn't pull any punches, and shows Jumipero Serra, as a conflicted man, who seems to care for the native Indians, but he also brutalized the Indians, through his own arrogance and ignorance, for example locking up the natives for supposedly their own protection, but it turn out Serra's action caused the Indians to be infected with diseases.
______________________________________

Junípero Serra's brutal story in spotlight as pope prepares for canonisation

Many have condemned decision to elevate 18th-century missionary to sainthood after violence suffered by Native Americans he was said to be protecting

Generations of American schoolchildren have been taught to think of Father Junípero Serra as California’s benevolent founding father, a humble Franciscan monk who left a life of comfort and plenty on the island of Mallorca to travel to the farthest reaches of the New World and protect the natives from the worst abuses of the Spanish imperial army.

Under Serra’s leadership, tens of thousands of Native Americans across Alta California, as the region was then known, were absorbed into Catholic missions – places said by one particularly rapturous myth-maker in the 19th century to be filled with “song, laughter, good food, beautiful languor, and mystical adoration of the Christ”.

What this rosy-eyed view omits is that these natives were brutalized – beaten, pressed into forced labour and infected with diseases to which they had no resistance – and the attempt to integrate them into the empire was a miserable failure. The journalist and historian Carey McWilliams wrote almost 70 years ago the missions could be better conceived as “a series of picturesque charnel houses”.

read the rest here:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/23/pope-francis-j...







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ELINVESTIG8R
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[*] posted on 6-27-2018 at 03:15 PM


Quote: Originally posted by JoeJustJoe  
I would love to read David K's book, and it looks like he put in a lot of work into this subject, and he should be proud of his work.

I don't mind a little sugar coating of history, in regards to Baja history, the missions, Jesuits,Franciscan monks, or even Columbus, but as the years go on the alternative views, from the Latin Americas perceptives should be put out there starting in High School, and the older history books should be retired if they are not updated.

For example, Christopher Columbus, is not celebrated in Latin America, like he is in the USA, and even in the US, we are moving away of treating him like an explorer hero, and many see Columbus, as an evil villain.

Here is a good article from the "Guardian" that's an respectable news outlet, and the article doesn't pull any punches, and shows Jumipero Serra, as a conflicted man, who seems to care for the native Indians, but he also brutalized the Indians, through his own arrogance and ignorance, for example locking up the natives for supposedly their own protection, but it turn out Serra's action caused the Indians to be infected with diseases.
______________________________________

Junípero Serra's brutal story in spotlight as pope prepares for canonisation

Many have condemned decision to elevate 18th-century missionary to sainthood after violence suffered by Native Americans he was said to be protecting

Generations of American schoolchildren have been taught to think of Father Junípero Serra as California’s benevolent founding father, a humble Franciscan monk who left a life of comfort and plenty on the island of Mallorca to travel to the farthest reaches of the New World and protect the natives from the worst abuses of the Spanish imperial army.

Under Serra’s leadership, tens of thousands of Native Americans across Alta California, as the region was then known, were absorbed into Catholic missions – places said by one particularly rapturous myth-maker in the 19th century to be filled with “song, laughter, good food, beautiful languor, and mystical adoration of the Christ”.

What this rosy-eyed view omits is that these natives were brutalized – beaten, pressed into forced labour and infected with diseases to which they had no resistance – and the attempt to integrate them into the empire was a miserable failure. The journalist and historian Carey McWilliams wrote almost 70 years ago the missions could be better conceived as “a series of picturesque charnel houses”.

read the rest here:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/sep/23/pope-francis-j...



JIHAD'S KNOWLEDGE ABOUT ANY SUBJECT HE PONTIFICATES ON IN HERE OR THE OTHER SIDE IS FROM A CUT AND PASTE PERSPECTIVE AND NEEDS TO BE CHALLENGED!




On June 8, 2013, Jihad Jay Salman of Temple City California invited Elinvestig8r over for coffee, but in the end, Jihad Salman was too frightened to open his front door. Elinvestig8r went over to get an apology from Jihad Salman after he put Elinvestig8r’s Peace Officer son in danger by revealing his name address and telephone number. On January 5, 2016, Jihad Jay Ezzeddine Salman of Temple City California was again too frightened open his front door after inviting Elinvestig8r for coffee. Prior to the visit Jihad Salman told Elinvestig8r to come at his own risk because he was armed. Facing extreme danger, Elinvestig8r went over to see Jihad Salman in the pouring rain to meet him for coffee and ask for an apology for putting Elinvestig8r’s Peace Officer son in danger. It is obvious Jihad Jay Ezzeddine Salman of Temple City California is too frightened of Elinvestig8r and will never meet with him for coffee to apologize for putting his Peace Officer son in danger by revealing his name address and telephone number!
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[*] posted on 6-27-2018 at 03:30 PM


Quote: Originally posted by DaliDali  
Quote: Originally posted by motoged  
It is insanity to NOT learn from our history. If not accurately representing history in reporting it....what is that about?

Any comments are not a personal attack on DK, but perhaps on an approach to selling history.

No one wants history to be changed....just accurately reported.

[Edited on 6-27-2018 by motoged]

[Edited on 6-27-2018 by motoged]


We have learned from history Ged.....the invaders of 300 years ago don't invade anymore.

This is one person's account, based on his research, of how it all went down and drawn from those on the ground at the time.

If your all wound up on getting it "accurate".....research and write your own published version. What's that all about?

It is impossible to dig into someone's head who trod the Baja 300 years ago and "accurately" make a call about their real intentions.
It's only from an opinion of some that there were indeed......dastardly in those intentions or not.

Yes you were very "submissive" and contrite.....if not down right snarky.
All because your slant on DK's political held views does not mirror your own. You know it....I know it.

Not a personal attack?.......pifff



Well said DaliDali. It's all a personal attack don't let anyone tell you otherwise. I see you already don't. Great!




On June 8, 2013, Jihad Jay Salman of Temple City California invited Elinvestig8r over for coffee, but in the end, Jihad Salman was too frightened to open his front door. Elinvestig8r went over to get an apology from Jihad Salman after he put Elinvestig8r’s Peace Officer son in danger by revealing his name address and telephone number. On January 5, 2016, Jihad Jay Ezzeddine Salman of Temple City California was again too frightened open his front door after inviting Elinvestig8r for coffee. Prior to the visit Jihad Salman told Elinvestig8r to come at his own risk because he was armed. Facing extreme danger, Elinvestig8r went over to see Jihad Salman in the pouring rain to meet him for coffee and ask for an apology for putting Elinvestig8r’s Peace Officer son in danger. It is obvious Jihad Jay Ezzeddine Salman of Temple City California is too frightened of Elinvestig8r and will never meet with him for coffee to apologize for putting his Peace Officer son in danger by revealing his name address and telephone number!
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[*] posted on 6-28-2018 at 05:25 AM


OH MAN!

This is SO better than TV
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[*] posted on 6-28-2018 at 08:46 AM


I found this passage in David K,'s book, most interesting about lazy male Indians, sitting around like male Lions, scratching their private parts, while the Indian women, compete with other Indians wives, gaining favor with their Indian Husbands.

I'm not going to say David K's, book, or research he did was wrong, because I'm sure other History books, share the same narrative. But if you ask me, that narrative comes from a white man's narrative, a Jesuit narrative, an ultra conservative narrative, and from a Historians native, that would be different from a historian in Latin America, or from other fields like science that would see Indian polygamy as a way for survival of a group of people.

It's obvious the Jesuits, who were paternal were outraged over the Indians before, especially in regards to marriage, sexually, and spiritually. And by God, they were going instill a fear of God, into these Indian heathens.

If you ask me these Pericu Indians, and basically most Indian tribes, were a lot more progressive than the sexually uptight Jesuits priests. The Indians who saw sexually on a continuum like most modern psychologists do today. Marriage was not like it was for the Spanish, or in the US/Mexico. There is no big marriage ceremony for these Indian woman, they hooked up with who they wanted, and didn't always stay with one man. The Spanish soldiers really enjoyed how sexually open these female Indians were. Unfortunately, the Spanish soldiers spread a lot of early STDs back then.

So at the end of the day, I find the passage by David K, below, ,somewhat limited of what was really going on, and it's from an American frame of reference. However, I also understand, the focus of the book was on the missions, and not Indians, lifestyle, marriage, and sexually.
________________________________
From David K's book:

David K wrote:"A major issue the Jesuits had with converting the natives to Christianity was the habit of the men of having several wives. Padre Tamaral, wrote of the issue to the missions benefactors Marques de Villapuente, on June 15, 1731. Tamaral describes on the wives compete with one another to gather the most food while their husbands rest all day in the shade with no need to work. Tamaral believed that by only halting polygamy was there any hope of to get some work performed by the "lazy men." Since Pericu women outnumbered men polygamy was desired by the women for survival of the all important family group."

_______________
A Brief History of Los Cabos, Part I: The Mystery of the Pericúes

Shelvocke was much more impressed with the moral qualities of the Pericú than Jesuit missionaries, who founded the first missions in the area during the next decade. The Jesuits were intent on saving souls, and found the religion of the Pericúes–shamanistic, with supernatural cures and distinctive burial practices–antithetical to their own. They had their own creation myth, in which heaven and earth created by a god named Niparaja. And they were polygamous.

http://www.loscabosguide.com/a-brief-history-of-los-cabos-pa...
______________________
Native American Marriage ( highlights from this article)

The debate over marriage in American society and the fears expressed by some conservatives that allowing diversity will somehow destroy the institution of marriage has been interesting (at some times amusing) to watch. While there appear to be some who feel that there is only one kind of marriage, in reality there are many options regarding marriage. In order to provide some additional depth to an understanding of the complexity of human marriage, I would like to discuss traditional Native American marriage.

In American society, part of the discussion about marriage is really about sex. While sex was a part of traditional Native American marriage, marriage was not about sex. Prior to marriage, young people were expected to engage in sexual activities. Sex was not confined to marriage.

The Europeans, and particularly the missionaries, had a great deal of difficulty in understanding that women had power in Indian society and that they had the right to sexual freedom. Indian societies were not organized on the patriarchal, monogamous norms of European society. Christian missionaries were deeply shocked and offended by the fact that Indian women were allowed to express their sexuality. At the same time, many of the European men were delighted by this.

Among some contemporary American commentators, there is a view that there are only two genders: male and female. Yet, in American Indian cultures people did not make this an either/or situation. They viewed gender (and sexuality) as a continuum. Many modern Indians talk about a third sex/gender often called a berdache or two-spirit. Yet in traditional cultures, it wasn’t quite that simple. There was a recognition of the feminine and masculine in all people. There was not an either/or concept of being heterosexual or homosexual.

Traditional Native American cultures tended to be egalitarian: all people were equal. This is one of the things that bothered many of the early Christian Missionaries, particularly the Jesuits in New France, as they viewed marriage as a relationship in which the woman subjugated herself to the man. In Indian marriages, men and women were equals.

http://nativeamericannetroots.net/diary/1084



[Edited on 6-28-2018 by JoeJustJoe]







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[*] posted on 6-28-2018 at 09:23 AM


Remember, the only people who can change the past are historians.



Want to adopt a mellow Baja dog or cat? - https://www.facebook.com/bajaanimalsanctuary/
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[*] posted on 6-28-2018 at 11:14 AM


The e wrote:"AND NEEDS TO BE CHALLENGED!"

So go ahead and challenge what was written or linked by me.

Otherwise, I'll continue to ignore you in the main area" of BN, like all the other members are doing with your posts.







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[*] posted on 7-5-2018 at 11:22 AM
Back to the subject...


Another book that will make some of you (who like to think the padres were all demons) smile might be Dave Werschkul's 2003 book... it is a combo of history and a travel guide to the mission sites.





"So Much Baja, So Little Time..."

A Baja Missions History book, updated in 2018: http://oldmissions.com

My (over 50) Baja Bound Travel Adventure articles: https://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/

My Baja web site, to help you plan your adventure: http://VivaBaja.com

My 2018 Maps: http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=88771
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[*] posted on 7-7-2018 at 10:33 AM
The missionaries


One of the most time-consuming sections to research in my book (Baja California Land of Missions) was the lists of missionaries and where they were in Baja over the years.

In each mission chapter, I have a list of the padres documented in service there, so it is location specific [see sample below]. In the back of the book, I have an appendix for each Order (Jesuit, Franciscan, Dominican) with the padres listed alphabetically along with the years and locations they were in Baja [see second sample below].

Because the data is incomplete and so many came to Baja, there are many gaps and years missing. As I say in the book's Preface, I hope this work inspires future discoveries be made to fill in the blanks in the history.


Sample from San José del Cabo mission chapter:



First page of Appendix B:




If you are interested in learning some of the past history of this exciting peninsula or would like to make more discoveries, I recommend my book to get you started! www.oldmissions.com or any of the many distributors online or in stores. Discover Baja Travel Club has a fresh stock. Make sure you look for the 2018 (5th) Printing for the most recent, updated copies!

Want to see more photos and discuss or share more on the missions? Join my Facebook Baja Missions & Travel Group Page, Baja California Land of Missions: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1685520784824763/





"So Much Baja, So Little Time..."

A Baja Missions History book, updated in 2018: http://oldmissions.com

My (over 50) Baja Bound Travel Adventure articles: https://www.bajabound.com/bajaadventures/bajatravel/

My Baja web site, to help you plan your adventure: http://VivaBaja.com

My 2018 Maps: http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=88771
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