BajaNomad

Arizonas new Imigration Bill(This has turned into a Rat Hole)

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Baja Bernie - 5-16-2010 at 09:56 PM

Wow, I have read all 46 pages of ‘stuff’, not very well developed, on the pros and cons of the ‘new’ Arizona law …which is the same as preexisting federal law. I really have a great deal of difficulty understanding many of your comments as they somehow seem to change to support you position as it relates to others comments. Some of you seem able to develop a new defense of your positions at the drop of a hat.

One of you even decided to attack the other side, whatever that is, by talking about individual tax cheating, speeding tickets, etc…such a bunch of BS when it comes to adult discussion of this topic. This even got some positive play with the folks who wish to give our country away for whatever reason…you even chose to forget that the Mexican Law as it relates to ‘illegal” aliens …mostly on it southern borders THEY ARE BASICALLY THE SAME AS THE ARIZONIA/ US FEDERAL laws.

The when Irenemm posts the following everyone ignores it

irenemm
Nomad

________________________________________


Posts: 277
Registered: 7-16-2009
Location: vicente guerrero, baja
Member Is Offline

Mood: relaxed
posted on 4-29-2010 at 12:33




My 17 year old granddaughter born in Ensenada and has lived her whole life in Vicente Guerrero sums it up for me. She does have a green card.
If you did not do anything wrong what is the problem. If they ask me for papers and I have them what is the problem. If I don't have them then I guess I am breaking the law. You pay the price for breaking the law
I like her thinking
Just 17
I am at totally loss because she is obviously a Mexican Citizen who it attempting to lend some rationally to this thread…AND she it totally ignored.

Guys and Gals this is simple a case of Sovereign Statehood and nothing else…Captain Mike posted a list of Country’s that protected their own borders…he failed to mention Mexico who is very forceful is protecting it’s own southern border…Oh! Yeah…Canada is becoming much more forceful in protecting it’s own…

My friends…just look around the world and you will find that America is the least forceful in enforcing our own borders ,,,both North and South.

And I believe that our country will drown and be lost should we continue our current path.

Just an old mans thoughts!

I too found it refreshing Bernie...

David K - 5-17-2010 at 08:31 AM

This was that reply:
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by irenemm
My 17 year old granddaughter born in Ensenada and has lived her whole life in Vicente Guerrero sums it up for me. She does have a green card.
If you did not do anything wrong what is the problem. If they ask me for papers and I have them what is the problem. If I don't have them then I guess I am breaking the law. You pay the price for breaking the law
I like her thinking
Just 17


BRAVO! SHE'S A GENIOUS! SAYS IT ALL...



[Edited on 5-17-2010 by David K]

Cypress - 5-17-2010 at 09:25 AM

Yicks, the usual crowd will probably label her a "racist redneck".:lol:

DENNIS - 5-17-2010 at 09:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
Yicks, the usual crowd will probably label her a "racist redneck".:lol:


Yeah Man...Irene had better watch her step or she risks being added to this list:

http://www.cracked.com/article_15677_9-most-racist-disney-ch...

17 yo with green card?

mtgoat666 - 5-17-2010 at 09:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Baja Bernie
My 17 year old granddaughter born in Ensenada and has lived her whole life in Vicente Guerrero sums it up for me. She does have a green card.


if she is 17 yo, has green card and still lives in mexico, she probably comes from middle- or upper-class mexican family; and she can only have green card because mommy or daddy arranged it. 17 yos do not know about what it takes to make a living and feed a family. they are impulsive immature adolescents, and often think they know it all :lol::lol:

it is like meg whitman (in midst of her campaign to buy the governorship) spouting off during the campaign about how the poor on welfare should be terminated from welfare. in midst of a depression, meg says "go get a job." where are the jobs, meg? :?:

ain't it grand when the wealthy and privileged tell the poor how to live? :fire:

the 17 you sounds like a typical adolescent, mouthing off from the perspective of a 17 yo privileged know-it-all. :lol:

DENNIS - 5-17-2010 at 09:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
in midst of a depression, meg says "go get a job."



Reminds me of when Nancy Reagan suggested that the homeless wouldn't be without a roof over their head if they just went out and bought a condo.
Yeah...stay in touch, Nancy and Meg.

Mexicorn Pops ?

MrBillM - 5-17-2010 at 09:53 AM

"Last Mexican American in Arizona dont (sic) forget to turn off the lights! "

IF "Mexican-Americans" leave Arizona, it will be of their own free, so no tears need be shed.

Regardless of what the Mongol Libs say, I doubt (and would wager money) that there will be NO statistical evidence that a significant number of Mexican-Americans or Legal Residents flee Arizona.

Those that do, should be careful WHERE they go, especially in California.

Sunday's Press-Enterprise has a lengthy article on the Police Checkpoints in the Inland-Empire (San Bernardino, Murrieta, Perris, Temecula, etc) where they are checking vehicles for proper licensing and registration, including Driver's Licenses. Those without the proper docs are having their vehicles impounded for 30 days. The Illegals are whining that THEY are being targeted because they don't have proper documentation. Well, DUH !

One amusing aspect to the brouhaha is that "activist" Illegals in the area spot the checkpoints, go down the road and alert traffic to the checkpoint. SO, the police stakeout the "alerters" and watch for cars behaving suspiciously. Caught some that way. Cool.

Of course, they're simply letting the offenders themselves go on their way AND redeem the vehicle if they can.

That's because California is so loving and caring.

[Edited on 5-17-2010 by MrBillM]

gnukid - 5-17-2010 at 11:16 AM

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/bill-conroy/2010/0...

HIDTA task force on border mired in corruption charges
Posted by Bill Conroy - May 16, 2010 at 11:43 am

ICE agents who blew the whistle on fellow law enforcers’ fraud, waste and abuse faced swift retaliation from their agency

A law enforcement task force in New Mexico that is supposed to target drug-trafficking criminals is instead awash in charges that it is using its nearly $600,000 taxpayer-subsidized budget to fund its own corrupt practices.

The task force was previously the target of an investigation by the internal affairs unit of Immigrations and Customs Enforcement (ICE) that revealed a disturbing trail of bookkeeping irregularities and multiple mysterious bank accounts. In the wake of that investigation, nothing of consequence happened to the task force or its operations, and it continues to operate under the same leadership to this day.

Now, a former ICE agent who participated in the task force has stepped forward with revelations that, at a minimum, raise serious questions about the integrity of a major federal drug war initiative known as the High Intensity Drug Trafficking Areas (HIDTA) program.
The Deming, N.M.-based task force, composed of local and state law enforcers as well as federal ICE agents, serves primarily three counties (Luna, Grant and Hidalgo) in southern New Mexico. The task force, called the Border Operations Task Force, or BOTF-Deming, is part of New Mexico’s larger HI DTA program, which is overseen by the White House Office of National

Drug Control Policy (ONDCP).
The former federal agent who is now talking, Christopher DeSantis, served as an ICE agent in Deming from 2001 until mid-2007. He is currently embroiled in litigation with ICE over claims that the federal law enforcement agency discriminated against him and eventually fired him because he blew the whistle on the corruption in the BOTF-Deming.

DeSantis, in a series of interviews with Narco News, claims that the leadership of the BOTF-Deming engaged in a massive waste of taxpayers dollars in order to spend down budgeted funds to assure the same level of funding, or greater, in the following budget cycle. DeSantis alleges some task force members claimed overtime pay while bird hunting; attended "training" junkets in places like Tucson and Las Vegas that they viewed as paid vacations and where they spent a good deal of their time in bars and strip clubs; and spent thousands of dollars on useless equipment, such as two cellular-based tracking systems for use in a remote corner of the border where there was no cell service.

“They were even buying refills for disposable pens just to burn up the budget money,” DeSantis says. “They didn’t give a chit. They just wanted to use up the money because the fiscal year was ending.”

DeSantis also alleges that it was common practice for the task force leadership to double count drug seizures. In other words, he claims that if ICE made a drug seizure in the area independent of the task force, then the task force also would count that same seizure in its drug-bust numbers to help bolster its standing for future HIDTA funding.
More disturbing, however, are DeSantis claims about the task force’s use of a particular informant, designated SA-163.

As part of one BOTF-Deming operation, DeSantis says he was part of a team that bought heroin every week, “like clockwork,” for a year based on information provided by SA-163, whom DeSantis says was a “doper.” The task force would pay that informant for the information, often dipping into both the task force’s funds as well as ICE funds so they could dole out more money to SA-163 and not trigger ICE reporting requirements that kicked in when informant payments reached a certain dollar level.

“We would meet someone who was bringing the drugs across the border, and we made the purchases in a parking lot or hotel [on the U.S. side],” DeSantis recalled. “We were wired for sound and someone was in a van or in an adjoining hotel room [for backup and monitoring.] Most of the time, we were just buying the drugs, and every one in a while, we would arrest a [low-level] mule.”

However, DeSantis says the operation, which he did not control, never made an effort to work its way up the drug organization’s hierarchy to bust its leadership, which he stresses should be the goal of any major drug sting operation.

“We were just going through the motions,” he says. “We had a lot of buy-walks, where we would just get the dope, but no one was arrested. The CI [informant] would just let his handler [a New Mexico cop with the task force] know there was another batch of heroin for sale, and ask if we wanted it.

“After doing this forever [the heroin purchases], it dawned on me that this CI [informant SA-163], that it was his heroin,” DeSantis continues. “He was getting paid by law enforcement and getting street value for his drugs with no risk (and the task force was getting to count the heroin purchase as drug seizures, which helped them justify the HIDTA funding and bolster careers.)

DeSantis says he and another ICE agent on the task force did report their concerns to a federal prosecutor in New Mexico. (That other ICE agent was later removed from the task force and reassigned to a different ICE post, according to DeSantis.)

The prosecutor, DeSantis says, scheduled a polygraph test for the informant. However, the ICE supervisor overseeing the Deming office at the time claimed the informant could not be found, DeSantis says.

That same supervisor, DeSantis alleges, subsequently approved a $10,000 relocation payment for the very same informant, SA-163 — after telling the prosecutor that the informant could not be found in order to take the polygraph test.

“So that means either (the supervisor) lied to the prosecutor, which is obstruction of justice, or he stole the $10,000,” DeSantis says. “Either way, he should have been criminally indicted.”
DeSantis’ claims about this ICE supervisor are also echoed in legal case brought before the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC) in 2007 by another agent at the ICE Deming office. That agent, who served as the Residence Agent in Charge of the ICE office in 2005, after the allegedly corrupt supervisor had retired, also claims she was retaliated against for blowing the whistle on the task force corruption – including alleging that some $300,000 in federal funds under the control of a HIDTA task force in Deming had mysteriously disappeared.
In her EEO filing, the agent, Caroline Richardson, claims the allegedly corrupt supervisor had problems with the U.S. Attorney’s Office in Las Cruces because he “was hiding” an informant to avoid having him take a polygraph.

Covering Up The Paper Trail
Although the legal trail for both Richardson and DeSantis has been long, several years in the making now, and is complicated, in essence each is claiming that ICE ruined their careers because they sought to expose corruption within the federally funded HIDTA program in New Mexico.

Both Richardson and DeSantis filed administrative cases with the U.S. Merit Systems Protection board alleging, in part, that ICE supervisors retaliated against them for seeking to expose alleged corruption in the HIDTA-funded BOTF-Deming.

Richardson and DeSantis both served in the ICE Deming office (Richardson from 2003 to the fall of 2005 and DeSantis from 2001 to mid-2007 — when he was terminated). Each of them reported the corruption problems within the BOTF-Deming, which eventually prompted an ICE internal affairs investigation in 2006 and a subsequent report of findings issued in 2007. (Narco News obtained that report the same year through a Freedom of Information Act request and wrote about it at length in a news report that can be found at this link.)

Although the New Mexico HIDTA program funding was suspended for a short time in 2007, due in part to the problems of the BOTF-Deming, the funding was restored within a matter of months, in large part because of the intervention of a powerful U.S. Senator in New Mexico — Republican Pete Domenici, who has since been replaced in the Senate by Democrat Tom Udall.
According to the findings of the ICE internal affairs investigation of the BOTF-Deming’s operations “reviewers … experienced considerable resistance when trying to obtain documents” relating to the task force’s funds.
From the ICE report:

OPR [the Office of Professional Responsibility, ICE’s internal affairs unit] reviewers concurred with the ONDCP auditor’s opinion that records are disorganized and extremely difficult to review or audit. This fact was confirmed [regarding] … “discretionary funds” expenditures and to some extent [in the] payments made to informants. With respect to the overtime payments, many times the reimbursement requests were not submitted until well after the overtime assignment was performed and frequently the support documentation for the payments was incomplete.

Other findings of the ICE OPR investigation (released in March 2007):
• The Task Force made multiple payments to a source of information, evidence or service [an informant]. … The review [of informant] payments disclosed possible reciprocal payments to two confidential informants. … Report forms in four informant files disclosed insufficient documentation. …
• [The BOTF-Deming] HIDTA Executive Assistant erased financial records from the computer. …
• ICE is not in control or in possession of its own Deming BOTF HIDTA initiative financial records.…

In addition, shortly after Richardson was demoted and relocated to El Paso in September 2005 (after reporting her corruption concerns about the BOTF-Deming operations to the Department of Justice) an unknown thief paid a visit to the BOTF-Deming office.
From the ICE OPR report:

The break-in occurred shortly after Richardson had been reassigned to El Paso…. On Sunday, September 25, 2005, at 0208 hours, the Deming Police Department was dispatched to the physical location of the Office of the RAC Deming [the location of the BOTF-Deming] where they met the federal agent who had called to report a break-in following Sector’s telephonic advise that the building alarm had sounded.

DeSantis claims that there was never an investigation conducted by ICE, or any other federal agency, of the break-in. In a comment he provided to Narco News previously, DeSantis described the break-in as a big “hoax”:

The abuses [by the BOTF-Deming) were so egregious that the Agency [ICE) will never allow the truth to see the light of day.

Overtime was paid for hunting trips, travel funds spent for strip-club patronage, and money just outright missing along with the accompanying accounting ledgers. As to the “break-in” of the RAC Deming office, what a hoax; the building compound was surrounded by 15’ chain link fences topped with razor wire and multiple video cameras recorded 24/7 video surveillance.
The Deming Police Department was called regarding the break-in but no investigation was conducted. I was in the building that morning and no effort was made to take fingerprints or examine the video surveillance tapes. The locks to the building were not damaged and [the task-force administrative assistant] mysteriously left the door to her office, where the HIDTA bookkeeping records where stored, unlocked; something she never did.

Absolutely nothing of value was taken from anywhere in the office…; only the HIDTA bookkeeping records were “stolen.”
Shooting the Messengers

Katherine Bush, a public affairs spokesperson for the ONDCP, provided Narco News with the following information about the current status of the BOTF-Deming in response to an e-mail query:

The total FY 2010 budget for the New Mexico Region of the SWB [Southwest Border] HIDTA is $8,317,832.

The NM Border Operations Task Force (BOTF), located in Deming, is still one of the initiatives for the New Mexico Region and therefore received HIDTA funds. For FY 2010, BOTF received $589,022.

Immigration and Customs Enforcement is very much a part of the NM BOTF (Deming) and provides fulltime agents as part of that task force.

So, it appears, despite the serious claims of corruption, and what appears to be considerable evidence in that regard, the BOTF-Deming remains operational. According to law enforcement sources and press reports, the same two individuals who headed the BOTF-Deming (an ICE agent and a New Mexico law enforcer) at the time Richardson, DeSantis and others brought forward the corruption charges, remain in charge. Those individuals are Bart Skelton, who replaced Richardson as ICE RAC in Deming; and New Mexico Sixth Judicial District detective Larry Lutonsky — who is also now apparently a candidate for Luna County Sheriff.
DeSantis and Richardson’s MSPB cases, as well as an EEO complaint filed by Richardson, eventually became the basis for now-pending lawsuits filed in federal court in New Mexico alleging that ICE engaged in discriminatory practices against each of them. (Richardson is Puerto Rican; DeSantis suffers from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and is now drawing a disability pension from the government.)

The discrimination and retaliation employed by ICE against the two federal agents led to DeSantis being fired from his job and to the demotion of Richardson from a Resident Agent in Charge post in Deming to a group supervisor job with ICE in El Paso, Texas, according to the trail of litigation in their cases.

DeSantis’ federal lawsuit is slated to go to trial in August and Richardson’s case is scheduled for trial in November.

Narco News did attempt to contact a representative of the BOTF-Deming, but the available telephone numbers have been disconnected, including numbers that have worked in the past. The ONDCP’s Bush explains that the task force “could be operating in some local police department’s basement” now, adding that every HIDTA operation is different.
Narco News also contacted ICE El Paso, which oversees the Deming RAC office. A spokesperson for that office has so far failed to respond to questions.

However, attorney Mark Conrad, a former supervisory special agent with U.S. Customs, which was merged into ICE, has some pretty harsh words for the government’s handling of the BOTF-Deming matter. Conrad is now representing DeSantis in his discrimination lawsuit against ICE.

After the documentary and testimony came out in the 2008 MSPB [Merit Systems Protection Board] discovery and hearings, I was astonished to learn that ICE is back in the thick of things again [with respect to the BOTF-Deming]. I am sure that ICE will tell you that they audit the [HIDTA] funds to insure that they are used appropriately. That is like asking Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to audit themselves. It is a fraud on the American people.
I am also astonished that the U.S. Attorney's office in New Mexico has not launched a criminal investigation into the allegations of intentional double payments to informants from two different pots of government money, but I have to assume that is … to protect the AUSA's that knew what was going on, and to protect their "defense" in the civil case Mr. DeSantis has against ICE (which is part of Homeland Security).

The documents and testimony are there. Any first-year prosecutor could convict some of these people of flat out fraud. …
Stay tuned ….

AND

MrBillM - 5-17-2010 at 11:30 AM

That has to do with WHAT aspect of the Arizona Law ?

Cypress - 5-17-2010 at 11:35 AM

I'm astonished that these abuses raised any eyebrows. The little fish are learning from the big fish. If they pass the tests they'll be on their way to Washington with raises and cushy desk jobs.:lol:

Bajahowodd - 5-17-2010 at 12:46 PM

They were acting like bankers and stockbrokers do!:lol:

The Nature of Man

MrBillM - 5-17-2010 at 03:12 PM

Is NOT Good. It is self-interest.

MOST People are naturally corrupt. Most struggle with Venal attractions throughout life.

Society is properly structured when we accept that fact and put in place safeguards and penalties to hold that natural corruption in check.

Nobody should EVER be surprised when anyone, Big Fish or Small, acts on their corrupt tendencies IF they believe they'll succeed.

That's Life.

Bajahowodd - 5-17-2010 at 03:17 PM

Hmmm. Safeguards and penalties. You sound like a big government liberal.:lol:

But, seriously, no successful society has ever been able to function without setting limits, rules and penalties on day to day activities. The corrupt nature of man, as you mentioned, is fundamentally what resulted in the rulers of yore to create religion. Fear of man is nothing like fear of God.

gnukid - 5-17-2010 at 04:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
That has to do with WHAT aspect of the Arizona Law ?


Bill

The Arizona law attempts to right wrongs, it's attempt to get a handle on a problem with illegal immigration which is directly related to crime, kidnapping, murder and gangs, immigration is supposed to be managed by ICE and Border Patrol some of whom according to the article, are mired in corruption as opposed to being effective and there is no accountability.

The connection between ICE corruption and illegal immigration is obvious and direct, illustrating the large problem, there isn't effective enforcement, those who are assigned responsibility are more concerned with personal benefit and fail to do their job. While Johnny tourist is hassled for an illegal kiwi in his camper, the border is wide open to those who want to pass without a visa or inspection.

oldlady - 5-17-2010 at 04:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
The corrupt nature of man, as you mentioned, is fundamentally what resulted in the rulers of yore to create religion. Fear of man is nothing like fear of God.


That's an interesting statement of fact. Where did you get it?

gnukid - 5-17-2010 at 04:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
Is NOT Good. It is self-interest.

MOST People are naturally corrupt. Most struggle with Venal attractions throughout life.

...


Bill actually there are few people who are corrupt unfortunately the system as it is benefits antisocial narcissists who use corruption to their benefit. On the other the majority are good people and believe most other people are too, so they fail to see their misleaders as corrupt. Many people fall into the game of believing their team is good and the other is bad, which is how the left-right paradigm plays out the public. People blame the other party instead of recognizing the complicity and connectivity between politicians and failure.

As a public we must be critical and skeptical of any politician or manager and never trust they would behave properly without direct oversight. We must break out of the false left-right paradigm and see ourselves as co-leaders.

Bajahowodd - 5-17-2010 at 04:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldlady
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
The corrupt nature of man, as you mentioned, is fundamentally what resulted in the rulers of yore to create religion. Fear of man is nothing like fear of God.


That's an interesting statement of fact. Where did you get it?


It was either Bill Maher, or my culo, if you must know. :lol:

Seriously, I have studied comparative religion at two universities. I have also read extensively on the subject. While there is no button on this forum to identify fact from opinion, I confess that it is my opinion that religions were devised by people in power, to control their flock. Much as the same that happens today in politics. Why else would there be so many similarities amongst disparate religions, who by virtue of their similarities, should be moving together, as opposed to be trying to kill each other?

[Edited on 5-18-2010 by Bajahowodd]

Response to bajahowodd about religion

Baja Bernie - 5-17-2010 at 07:40 PM

Amen,

I have spent over fifty years trying to understand religion and politics and have basically decided that any thing that has an 'ISM' behind it's name, indeed, is out to use it's power to gain MORE power and to control the masses...Yep! They are all in the same game and the name is control and power...and to hell with the masses.

Sadly! That is what I labor with each and every day...and the thirst for power has been elivated over 100 times over the past 20 years....Yep! that is Clinton, Bush, and Obama.

If we get out of this mess alive I will be most confused.

Mexicorn - 5-17-2010 at 10:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by gnukid
Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
That has to do with WHAT aspect of the Arizona Law ?


Bill

The Arizona law attempts to right wrongs, it's attempt to get a handle on a problem with illegal immigration which is directly related to crime, kidnapping, murder and gangs, immigration is supposed to be managed by ICE and Border Patrol some of whom according to the article, are mired in corruption as opposed to being effective and there is no accountability.

The connection between ICE corruption and illegal immigration is obvious and direct, illustrating the large problem, there isn't effective enforcement, those who are assigned responsibility are more concerned with personal benefit and fail to do their job. While Johnny tourist is hassled for an illegal kiwi in his camper, the border is wide open to those who want to pass without a visa or inspection.




Kid- you hit the nail on the head. Hey, by the way do any of you Nomads know of any local corruption at the San Ysidro Point of Entry by any members of Immigration Customs Enforcement Agents. I had been told that they cannot be in possession of Cellular Telephones while on duty. Furthermore, they are not notified of which lane they will be working and are shifted about every 15 minutes. Whats that all about?

NO ONE...

Dave - 5-17-2010 at 10:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mexicorn
I had been told that they cannot be in possession of Cellular Telephones while on duty.


Unless it's absolutely essential to their job should carry a cell phone at work. Yesterday, I watched a clerk at a Home Depot hold off a customer while he was on a cell phone. If he would've done that to me the phone would be up his a$$...Sideways.

gnukid - 5-17-2010 at 11:02 PM

If you want to know about corruption within ICE at San Ysidro you can do a search and find a long list of cases, it's also reported in their annual report. I am sure you could get anecdotal stories here, but just do a search to see more.

http://legacy.signonsandiego.com/news/metro/20050607-1354-bo...

http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=39929

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20061022/news_1m22co...

http://www.redcounty.com/deep-throat-double-cross-how-us-gov...

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=8290118
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/federal-eye/2008/12/homelan...

http://www.vanguardnewsnetwork.com/download/cobb/caganap6115...

http://www.citizensforethics.org/files/DHS_report_final.pdf

According to the report linked above, San Diego has the largest number of cases of corruption of any region of DHS in 2006 and CBP has the most cases of corruption under investigation.

"In 2006, Internal Affairs investigators conducted more than 600 probes into criminal activity of immigration employees nationwide." p50


[Edited on 5-18-2010 by gnukid]

k-rico - 5-18-2010 at 05:32 AM

Dumb question.

If this law is just like the federal law, why is it needed?

AZ cops should simply enforce the federal law.

Untangling Immigration's Double Helix


[Edited on 5-18-2010 by k-rico]

Alan - 5-18-2010 at 07:38 AM

The more things change the more they stay the same :


Theodore Roosevelt's ideas on Immigrants and being an AMERICAN in 1907.
'In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language.. And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.'
Theodore Roosevelt 1907

gnukid - 5-18-2010 at 07:40 AM

Krico There is a failure and breakdown of the federal government. The people of the State are reaffirming the rule of law.

k-rico - 5-18-2010 at 07:42 AM

Yes by why do they need a new law? They could just instruct the local cops to enforce the federal law. Couldn't they?

Udo - 5-18-2010 at 07:49 AM

Here is something that was forwarded to me by my accountant:

Mexicans here and in Mexico are rather upset by the recent enactment of stricter anti-illegal alien laws by Arizona's governor.

In light of the following, that position demonstrates the typical double standard used by race-hustlers and assorted something-for-nothings. Read on, and read it to the end.

New Immigration Laws: Read to the bottom or you will miss the message...

1 There will be no special bilingual programs in the schools.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

2. All ballots will be in this nation's language.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

3. All government business will be conducted in our language.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

4. Non-residents will NOT have the right to vote no matter how long they are here.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

5. Non-citizens will NEVER be able to hold political office

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

6 Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers. No welfare, no food stamps, no health care, or other government assistance programs. Any burden will be deported.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

7. Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount at least equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

8. If foreigners come here and buy land... options will be restricted. Certain parcels including waterfront property are reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

9.. Foreigners may have no protests; no demonstrations, no waving of a foreign flag, no political organizing, no bad-mouthing our president or his policies. These will lead to deportation.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

10. If you do come to this country illegally, you will be actively hunted &, when caught, sent to jail until your deportation can be arranged. All assets will be taken from you.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Too strict?......

The above laws are the current immigration laws of MEXICO !!!

These sound fine to me, NOW, how can we get these laws to be America's immigration laws??

WAKE UP, AMERICA - we are about to lose our country..........

I think that Americans living in Mexico have accepted the above laws, and it's nothing that any of us will ever change.

capt. mike - 5-18-2010 at 08:08 AM

This was written by a Mexican who is now a naturalized US Citizen, and I think it's a great explanation of the illegal immigration issue.


Here is the quote:


"If you had tickets to a sports event, concert, Disneyland, or for an airline flight, and when you got to your assigned seat you found someone else was in that seat, what would you do? You would call for a person in charge of ticket checking and have the person in your seat removed. You would properly be asked to show your ticket, and you would gladly and proudly do so, for you have bought and paid for that seat. The person in your seat would also be asked for a ticket, which they would not be able to produce. They would be called "gate crashers" and they would properly be removed.


Now in this huge stadium called the USA we have had (tens of) millions of gate crashers. We have been asking security to check for tickets and remove the gate crashers. We have been asking security to have better controls in checking at the door. We have asked security to lock the back doors. Security has failed us. They are still looking the other way. They are afraid to ask to see the tickets. Many people say there is unlimited seating, and whether there is or not, no one should be allowed in for free while the rest of us pay full price!


In "section AZ", of "Stadium USA", we have had enough of the failures of Security. We have decided to do our own ticket checking, and properly remove those who do not have tickets. Now it seems very strange to me that so many people in the other 49 "sections", and even many in our own "section" do not want tickets checked, or even to be asked to show their ticket! Even the head of Security is chastising us, while not doing his own job which he has sworn to do.


My own ticket has been bought and paid for, so I am proudly going to show it when asked to do so. I have a right to my seat, and I want the gate crashers to be asked to show their tickets too. The only reason that I can imagine anyone objecting to being asked for their ticket is that they are in favor of gate crashing, and all of the illegal activities that go with it, such as drug smuggling, gang wars, murder, human smuggling for profit, and many more illegal and inhumane acts that we are trying to prevent with our new legislation.

Is that what I am hearing from all of the protestors such as Phoenix Mayor Gordon, US Rep. Grijalva, even President Obama? If you are not in favor of showing tickets, (proof of citizenship, passport, green card, or other legal document) when asked, as I would do proudly, then you must be condoning those illegal activities."




Written by a US Citizen, Globe, Arizona.


This makes perfect sense to me. What do you think?


Since Obama has never shown his ticket, I guess he feels obligated to not ask others to show theirs.:smug:

Barry A. - 5-18-2010 at 08:31 AM

Udo & Capt. Mike----------I don't believe that anybody can make the point any better than that (last two posts)

WELL DONE, both of you, and the author of that brilliant piece.

That should be a "closer" to this thread if I ever saw one.

Barry

David K - 5-18-2010 at 08:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Udo & Capt. Mike----------I don't believe that anybody can make the point any better than that (last two posts)

WELL DONE, both of you, and the author of that brilliant piece.

That should be a "closer" to this thread if I ever saw one.

Barry


X2 :light:

k-rico - 5-18-2010 at 08:42 AM

The above post said:

"WAKE UP, AMERICA - we are about to lose our country.........."

Well if that happens, I have a map so you can find it.

Seriously, tell me, what does that statement mean?

Give it your best shot. ;)

DianaT - 5-18-2010 at 08:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by capt. mike

Since Obama has never shown his ticket, I guess he feels obligated to not ask others to show theirs.:smug:


Are you a birther??

Bajajorge - 5-18-2010 at 08:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico
The above post said:

"WAKE UP, AMERICA - we are about to lose our country.........."

Well if that happens, I have a map so you can find it.

Seriously, tell me, what does that statement mean?

Give it your best shot. ;)


Didn't the Greeks say something about wake up, you're spending and borrowing us into oblivion? Oh, that's right, their Greeks, we're Americans, it can't happen here.

oldlady - 5-18-2010 at 09:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico
The above post said:

"WAKE UP, AMERICA - we are about to lose our country.........."

Well if that happens, I have a map so you can find it.

Seriously, tell me, what does that statement mean?

Give it your best shot. ;)


We are transforming our belief systems.

k-rico - 5-18-2010 at 09:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldlady
Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico
The above post said:

"WAKE UP, AMERICA - we are about to lose our country.........."

Well if that happens, I have a map so you can find it.

Seriously, tell me, what does that statement mean?

Give it your best shot. ;)


We are transforming our belief systems.


Care to elaborate?

DianaT - 5-18-2010 at 09:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Udo & Capt. Mike----------I don't believe that anybody can make the point any better than that (last two posts)

WELL DONE, both of you, and the author of that brilliant piece.

That should be a "closer" to this thread if I ever saw one.

Barry


So because Mexico has strict immigration laws, and based on ONE naturalized citizens opinion---case closed?

Difficult to understand how one can base their opinion about this subject based on another country's laws and the opinion of one person.

But I guess it is a simple solution.

David K - 5-18-2010 at 09:12 AM

wow... is it really that hard to understand? :o:?:

DianaT - 5-18-2010 at 09:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
wow... is it really that hard to understand? :o:?:


No----some people really do like simple solutions and answers to everything---makes life easier for them.

Barry A. - 5-18-2010 at 09:22 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Udo & Capt. Mike----------I don't believe that anybody can make the point any better than that (last two posts)

WELL DONE, both of you, and the author of that brilliant piece.

That should be a "closer" to this thread if I ever saw one.

Barry


So because Mexico has strict immigration laws, and based on ONE naturalized citizens opinion---case closed?

Difficult to understand how one can base their opinion about this subject based on another country's laws and the opinion of one person.

But I guess it is a simple solution.


Diane-------you are being too literal----widen your perspective some------the jist of what Udo and Capt. Mike posted was an excellent piece describing where we Arizona supporters generally stand on this issue--------don't try to break it up into it's parts or you will lose the entire meaning of what was said.

In that respect, yes, it is a "closer" in that it represents where many of us stand on this issue----nothing more, nothing less. I especially liked the Capt. Mike post in it's simplicity and clarity----it represents what MANY of us are trying to say, not-with-standing that OF COURSE it was written by just one person-----comprende????

Barry

Barry A. - 5-18-2010 at 09:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
wow... is it really that hard to understand? :o:?:


No----some people really do like simple solutions and answers to everything---makes life easier for them.


-----and THAT is the way you solve problems!!!!!!!!! hence KISS (keep it simple, stupid)

Barry

DianaT - 5-18-2010 at 09:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Udo & Capt. Mike----------I don't believe that anybody can make the point any better than that (last two posts)

WELL DONE, both of you, and the author of that brilliant piece.

That should be a "closer" to this thread if I ever saw one.

Barry


So because Mexico has strict immigration laws, and based on ONE naturalized citizens opinion---case closed?

Difficult to understand how one can base their opinion about this subject based on another country's laws and the opinion of one person.

But I guess it is a simple solution.


Diane-------you are being too literal----widen your perspective some------the jist of what Udo and Capt. Mike posted was an excellent piece describing where we Arizona supporters generally stand on this issue--------don't try to break it up into it's parts or you will lose the entire meaning of what was said.

In that respect, yes, it is a "closer" in that it represents where many of us stand on this issue----nothing more, nothing less. I especially liked the Capt. Mike post in it's simplicity and clarity----it represents what MANY of us are trying to say, not-with-standing that OF COURSE it was written by just one person-----comprende????

Barry


Yes, that I can agree with that what the the one person wrote did speak well for what some of you believe---but does that make it a thread closer? WHY? End of discussion? Why---is that the LAST and only valid opinion around?

And I still think the immigration laws of any other country should have no standing in a discussion about our countries immigration laws.

But on the other hand, I still believe that many are looking for simple solutions---the simple answers to complicated problems, and far too often the simple solutions ignore the human aspect of the problem.

OK, back to lurking on this thread-----but still curious if Capt. Mike is a birther.

capt. mike - 5-18-2010 at 09:43 AM

hey Diana T.
you said a dozen plus posts ago you were through with this thread...gotcha!!! hahahahahaha.

maybe stick some posted notes on your forehead and look in the mirror every now and then, remind you of your to do and not to do lists. :lol::lol::lol:

oldlady - 5-18-2010 at 09:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico

Care to elaborate?


You're not the dullest tool in the shed, k-rico!

Our culture (laws, education, art, economic and political systems, social mores, religous attitudes) reflects a system of beliefs; values and priorities. These have changed since 1620, since 1850, since 1950. They continue to change. Transformation ("lost" isn't really the best word ) happens when enough of the beliefs have changed to a point that the underpinnings; the laws, economy and political systems, need to be changed to enable the operation of the new beliefs.

Breaking the Paradigm

MrBillM - 5-18-2010 at 09:52 AM

Is probably best left to the Gnu Who with his professorial compulsion to re-direct a straight-forward approach to a specific problem into a philosophical dissertation on myriad societal ills contributing to a complicated situation which must be studied and addressed before resolution can be hoped to have any effect while we descend further into the morass.

The PROBLEM is a lot simpler than that.

DECREASE (to whatever extent POSSIBLE) the Migration.

DECREASE (to whatever extent POSSIBLE) those already here by appropriate LEGAL means, including SEVERE Employer sanctions.

IF there then needs to be a Guest-Worker Program to fill specific needs, pass the appropriate legislation and provide for appropriate regulation of same.

And, at the same time to satisfy those like the Gnu and Mexipop, we can explore, discuss and address the deeper societal questions.

Or Not.

BTW, kico asks IF the Arizona law is the same as Federal Law "WHY" is the AZ law necessary ?

Having a little more respect for his intellect than the question would indicate, it's clear he's merely reciting a Lefty Talking point since the discussion from the very beginning pointed out that the PROBLEM was that Individual agencies and officers within Arizona were interpreting and enforcing their own versions of existing law. The PURPOSE of the AZ law is to MANDATE that they follow the U.S. law with penalty for not doing so.

Enforce the Law.

No Amnesty. No Quarter.

Barry A. - 5-18-2010 at 09:54 AM

Diane said, "But on the other hand, I still believe that many are looking for simple solutions---the simple answers to complicated problems, and far too often the simple solutions ignore the human aspect of the problem. "

No solution is perfect-----there are ALWAYS casualties--------the "complications" that folks conjure up (and some are real) are the reason that this particular problem has NOT been solved in decades---------

Lets SOLVE the problem, once and for all, and THEN address and try to correct the anticipated "complications".

What the Fed. legislature is doing now (nothing) is getting us nowhere, and in fact will eventually/already has drag us all down into the morass-------

That's it------that is all there is---------finis--------closer-------lets get on with it!!!!!!!! :rolleyes:

Barry

Alan - 5-18-2010 at 09:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by capt. mike
This was written by a Mexican who is now a naturalized US Citizen, and I think it's a great explanation of the illegal immigration issue.


Here is the quote:


"If you had tickets to a sports event, concert, Disneyland, or for an airline flight, and when you got to your assigned seat you found someone else was in that seat, what would you do? You would call for a person in charge of ticket checking and have the person in your seat removed. You would properly be asked to show your ticket, and you would gladly and proudly do so, for you have bought and paid for that seat. The person in your seat would also be asked for a ticket, which they would not be able to produce. They would be called "gate crashers" and they would properly be removed.


Now in this huge stadium called the USA we have had (tens of) millions of gate crashers. We have been asking security to check for tickets and remove the gate crashers. We have been asking security to have better controls in checking at the door. We have asked security to lock the back doors. Security has failed us. They are still looking the other way. They are afraid to ask to see the tickets. Many people say there is unlimited seating, and whether there is or not, no one should be allowed in for free while the rest of us pay full price!


In "section AZ", of "Stadium USA", we have had enough of the failures of Security. We have decided to do our own ticket checking, and properly remove those who do not have tickets. Now it seems very strange to me that so many people in the other 49 "sections", and even many in our own "section" do not want tickets checked, or even to be asked to show their ticket! Even the head of Security is chastising us, while not doing his own job which he has sworn to do.


My own ticket has been bought and paid for, so I am proudly going to show it when asked to do so. I have a right to my seat, and I want the gate crashers to be asked to show their tickets too. The only reason that I can imagine anyone objecting to being asked for their ticket is that they are in favor of gate crashing, and all of the illegal activities that go with it, such as drug smuggling, gang wars, murder, human smuggling for profit, and many more illegal and inhumane acts that we are trying to prevent with our new legislation.

Is that what I am hearing from all of the protestors such as Phoenix Mayor Gordon, US Rep. Grijalva, even President Obama? If you are not in favor of showing tickets, (proof of citizenship, passport, green card, or other legal document) when asked, as I would do proudly, then you must be condoning those illegal activities."




Written by a US Citizen, Globe, Arizona.


This makes perfect sense to me. What do you think?


Since Obama has never shown his ticket, I guess he feels obligated to not ask others to show theirs.:smug:

You forgot to mention that the stadium "managers" also require me to buy hot dogs and souvenirs for the gatecrashers :lol:

tripledigitken - 5-18-2010 at 10:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldlady
Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico

Care to elaborate?


You're not the dullest tool in the shed, k-rico!

Our culture (laws, education, art, economic and political systems, social mores, religous attitudes) reflects a system of beliefs; values and priorities. These have changed since 1620, since 1850, since 1950. They continue to change. Transformation ("lost" isn't really the best word ) happens when enough of the beliefs have changed to a point that the underpinnings; the laws, economy and political systems, need to be changed to enable the operation of the new beliefs.


I believe that change you speak of historically has occured slowly and with popular support in many cases. Today the change is occuring by mandate of only a few with little popular support. This is what is causing the angst for so many.jmho

Ken

oldlady - 5-18-2010 at 10:11 AM

Good point. It would be easier to garner large scale popular support if the vision were articulated with enough specificity and confidence that the benefits would be viewed as worth the effort/sacrifices to make the transformation.

k-rico - 5-18-2010 at 10:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldlady
Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico

Care to elaborate?


You're not the dullest tool in the shed, k-rico!

Our culture (laws, education, art, economic and political systems, social mores, religous attitudes) reflects a system of beliefs; values and priorities. These have changed since 1620, since 1850, since 1950. They continue to change. Transformation ("lost" isn't really the best word ) happens when enough of the beliefs have changed to a point that the underpinnings; the laws, economy and political systems, need to be changed to enable the operation of the new beliefs.


OK, but changing "America is being lost" to "America is being transformed" completely changes the meaning of the statement that I referenced and hear so often - that America is being lost. I reallly think that there a lot of people that are proponents of this law that think something fundamental is being lost and this law will prevent it. I'd like to know what they think is being lost. Perhaps my interpretation of lost to mean missing, gone in an undesirable manner is too strict.

Hyperbole, fear mongering, perhaps?


[Edited on 5-18-2010 by k-rico]

oldlady - 5-18-2010 at 10:41 AM

When a government doesn't protect its citizens, either because it cannot, or chooses not, and such lack of protection reaches a "tipping point", it is on a path towards a "failed state". In that context, lost is not completely inappropriate. The ability for a state to control it's borders and defend and protects it's citizens is generally accepted as being fundamental to maintaining sovereignty.

MrBillM's previous post is one of several in the thread that reiterates the solution. As long as we have a government that won't deal with those points, we have a divisive mess.

k-rico - 5-18-2010 at 12:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldlady
When a government doesn't protect its citizens, either because it cannot, or chooses not, and such lack of protection reaches a "tipping point", it is on a path towards a "failed state". In that context, lost is not completely inappropriate. The ability for a state to control it's borders and defend and protects it's citizens is generally accepted as being fundamental to maintaining sovereignty.


"failed state" you do have a flair for the dramatic.

Living in TJ and crossing the border frequently I have seen a tremendous increase in the border fencing and border agents patrolling the area. All of the numerous lanes at SY have high tech gear installed to detect people hidden in cars.

The feds have been working hard to enforce the border in this region. Perhaps AZ has now become the entry point of choice because the CA corridor is much more difficult. And AZ is no walk in the park, it's the Sonoran desert.

There are welfare agencies here in Tijuana to help the continually climbing numbers of Mexicans who get deported and dumped into TJ. It's a diffcult situation, especially for those that have been in the states for years and don't know anybody in TJ.

The government is increasing the enforcement of the border and deporting more illegals.

The California border is tightening up and all the fed jails to house deportees while they are processed are full.

So I think the idea that the government is unresponsive is inaccurate.

Bajahowodd - 5-18-2010 at 12:27 PM

History may very well view current times with an ironic chuckle. It has been reported that since the beginning of the recession, somewhere around 2 million illegals have left the US, and gone back home. There are several sources of anecdotal evidence that supports the idea that twice that many illegals remain here only because border security has been enhanced so much that they fear not being able to return when job demand increases. That said, I've provided a link to the Marketwatch site where they expect that by 2018, the US will have a worker shortage of somewhere between 3.3 and 4 million. The Marketwatch numbers compare conservatively to a report publish by the Graziadio School of Business at Pepperdine, who estimates the worker shortage at as high as 8 million by 2018. The difference in the estimates amounting to Marketwatch assuming more seniors will continue to work longer.

What this tells me is ironically, there would probably be millions fewer illegals in the US today had we not beefed-up border security. If there were millions fewer, the current debate would probably not reached the level to which it has. And, there would be some breathing room to establish an orderly process to provide for the entry of needed workers when the time comes.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/worker-shortage-coming-as-p...

gnukid - 5-18-2010 at 12:39 PM

Krico, There is massive local and global financial crisis in play, with massive illegal immigration as one tool of the deflationary game HELLO? Your pollyanna reply is cute but fails the test of reality. There is no oversight to stop the financial fall nor manage legal immigration.

It's cute that you and some Nomads are out of the loop, brain-washed and in denial, with your cutesy blame each other tit for tat, but that helps the national and world crisis very little.

The immigration problem is one arm of the crisis playing out among many and there is no end in sight. Massive illegal immigration is a serious problem with no very little real data available to understand the severity. Estimates can only begin to define the severity of the problem and those estimates state that illegal immigration exceeds 30,000,000 and of that group, they account for the largest percentage of crime, murder, gang violence and cause massive burden to the tax payer in the area of enforcement. The corporations, banks and government are the fuel to this fire and the immigrants are the pawns in a game which has rapidly destroyed a country which was once, a long time ago, an example of productivity and opportunity. Now that is long gone and what is left is a brain washed public, splintered by divisive memes, that play upon their weakness and irrational fears.

Until the people can find a way to take back their power with some action, any action we will be at the will of the financial fraud game and we will continue to lose our wealth, our industry, our jobs and our rights.

It's already a lost game and there is little clarity among this group or any other to gather some resolve to combat this.

This discussion about Arizona's mild response to reaffirm one aspect of the rule of law is a minor response, yet you can see it's a tool of division as well and a trap that catches our energy and causes more confusion and distraction. The elites laugh at the game and at you for falling over yourselves to attack each other instead of direct action. The solutions are simple as Bill and others suggest certainly. Get out of the corporate financial game, get back to basics and do not buy and play into the corporate tools that fuel your demise. Eat healthy natural foods, grow your own garden, make your bread and forgo consumer crap that fuels your demise whoever you may be.

Time to get serious, yes the US is done. We have lost ourselves to corruption in our government and banking system. Few people are wiling to admit that each day is worse even while countries around us fall to our orchestrated bankruptcy.

We have more than 20% unemployment, the jobs left are service industry positions with low pay, we have massive debt both as a nation and individually, well exceeding our GNP, we wage multiple wars with no goals except murder, pollution and attrition, our government is in complete chaos, bankrupt and running scams across the board as are our banking system the federal reserve which is still printing money deflating the value of your labor with NO OVERSIGHT.

Driveling crybaby arrogant replies are nothing more than distraction from the chaos either for your own false sense of self survival or if you are the least bit serious, there is little anyone here can do to help you.

As a group we must come to some common understanding that this crisis is the result of failures to use sound management of our dollar and of the rule of law-not so unlike the conditions that led us to create the constitution-now dismantled by crooks and liars.

[Edited on 5-18-2010 by gnukid]

oldlady - 5-18-2010 at 12:44 PM

It is a difficult situation. Some hold that Arizona's border is the most porous, and that the immigration traffic has been diverted as a result of better enforcement along the California border.

As far as unresponsive, choose a term you deem more accurate. Governments have a trick of not setting definitive goals and measurement systems that allow for meaningful definition of the scope of a problem and the effectiveness of the solution.
Indeed some in government positions don't agree that the problem is of such an extent that it needs to be addressed any further.

The governor of AZ believes there is. She asked the government to increase their effectiveness...several times....before the law was passed. She publicly claimed she received no response. I didn't hear Napolitano, Holder or Obama state that she was wrong and that someone had contacted her. Maybe someone else did and can link to it.

Mexicorn - 5-18-2010 at 01:13 PM

Looks like you guys swayed me over after watching this one it makes me PROUD to be an american:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7YrkpKNB7M&feature=PlayL...

Copied From Youtube

Mexicorn - 5-18-2010 at 01:21 PM

People just dot understand TRUE PATRIOTS when they see them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfhwQ1xoCSA&feature=relat...



Copied from you tube a must watch!

k-rico - 5-18-2010 at 01:28 PM

"As far as unresponsive, choose a term you deem more accurate."

They have been very responsive in this region. I forgot to mention the complete rebuild of the SY border crossing which is underway.

It's a looooooong border and they've tackled the hottest spots first.

Rome wasn't built in a day. Yikes, I said that?

Mexicorn - 5-18-2010 at 01:33 PM

Why has Immigration become such a hot button issue all of the sudden.
You Right wingers came crwaling out of the wood work ever since the United States had a black President.

Most of you didnt say boo when W was in Office. Hypocryites.

Bajahowodd - 5-18-2010 at 01:52 PM

Actually Obama's election was a tipping point, of sorts. There are two factors that are responsible for the current contretempts. One is long term. That is the inexorably fraying of the US middle class that has been occurring at least since Reagan. Jobs scarcer. Pay less. Decreased or no benefits. Second, is when it all hit the fan with the financial meltdown. Item one was less apparent as long as credit was easy and people were able to use home equity like a debit card.

Mexicorn - 5-18-2010 at 01:52 PM

ARIZONA- WHAT A WONDERFUL PLACE AND WHAT TOLERANT GRACEFUL PEOPLE! I JUST CANT WAIT TO PLAN MY NEXT VACATION THERE... NOT!



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQWdSAEdLQo\
Copied from Youtube.

Alan - 5-18-2010 at 02:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Mexicorn
Why has Immigration become such a hot button issue all of the sudden.
You Right wingers came crwaling out of the wood work ever since the United States had a black President.

Most of you didnt say boo when W was in Office. Hypocryites.
IMHO I really don't believe the color of the man's skin has anything at all to do with the mood of the country but that it is more reflective of the policies and direction set by this administartion and it's attempt to socialize this nation. Why would you even mention the man's race? What has that to do with the price of tea in China? It makes one wonder if the liberals selected a man of color to represent them merely so they could push their socialist agenda and speak down any opposition with accusations of racism. This isn't a matter of racism. It is the American majority finally speaking up and making it very clear that they believe Margaret Thatcher when she said: "... the problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money.

I really believe this current administration's approach may just be the straw that breaks the camel's back and the silent majority is finally going to stop turning the other cheek. You are just now starting to see the momentum that is building in this nation to finally say, enough is enough.

Back in the 60s&70s....

Sharksbaja - 5-18-2010 at 02:20 PM

.......we would pack our boats with beer and camping gear and head on over to the Colorado River to play for spring break or summer. From there we would go skiing and partying.:cool::saint:

We NEVER stayed on the Arizona side. Can someone guess why?;D

btw, the drinking age was 18 in AZ at that time.:bounce:

Nomad Youtubing

MrBillM - 5-18-2010 at 03:42 PM

I suppose since Mexipop and others are going to keep posting the results of their endless YouTube surfing, SOMEONE should take up the position of YouTube Viewer to summarize whatever it is they're trying to convey.

For those of us who have never, and hopefully, will never view that site. Any Tube worth seeing will show up on the Cable News.

Any Volunteers with time on their hands ?

[Edited on 5-18-2010 by MrBillM]

DENNIS - 5-18-2010 at 04:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Alan
enough is enough.



Well said, Alan.

Cypress - 5-18-2010 at 04:27 PM

Alan has put it in simple terms. All the liberals can pack their boats with goodies and stay on the what ever side of the river that suit's 'em.:lol:

Sharksbaja - 5-18-2010 at 05:08 PM

"What's a Liberal"? :lol:

Alan - 5-18-2010 at 05:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
can't we change the subject to climate change? :bounce:
Let's just call it the weather. Global warming discussions opens a whole new door :lol:

Alan

toneart - 5-18-2010 at 06:41 PM

I am trying to stay out of this string as I have said all I wish to say on the subject.

So, this is just to address your comments-

You speak of (I am paraphrasing here) Obama trying to push a Socialist agenda. Nothing could be further from the truth. Obama is a middle of the road politician. Sure, he is more Progressive in Social programs than you apparently would like, but he has deserted his voter base and has greatly disappointed.

This was my last election! I voted for the promised change that would deliver the country back to my political preference, but instead we got MORE OF THE SAME!

I have voted in every election including John F. Kennedy's. I used to believe that a party's platform made a difference. I believe things have changed radically since Reagan. Now I believe that it doesn't matter a whit which party is in control of either branch. It is all a charade.

No politician can reach the level of The Executive Branch or Congress without owing huge favors to the Corporate lobbyists. They are compelled to serve their Corporate masters. We The People (you, me, Liberals, Conservatives) are not represented. The Corporate Media only dupes you into thinking you are.

So, what we are left with is to argue ideologies here and elsewhere. That is merely an exercise in mast*rbat**n. It is silly and futile. We all need to stop this and find other ways to be friendly and civil! I understand your (and others') passion but in my opinion, it is misplaced.

For me it is interesting to read though, because there are huge chasms between people's ideologies, based on so many factors; geographical, upbringing, life's experience, being intellectually curious...or NOT, interest in other cultures, travel, and most of all...Liberals and Conservatives are just plain wired differently. I like to observe the differences and contemplate the viewpoints.

I believe our country is done. The great civilization is toast. What I am becoming is a passive bystander. I am not bitter. I am changing. I am transcending all of this B.S.. I have lost the passion because it just doesn't matter any more. What I haven't lost is my love for people and I will continue to serve them (us). I do care!
:light:

Mexicorn - 5-18-2010 at 08:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by toneart
I am trying to stay out of this string as I have said all I wish to say on the subject.

So, this is just to address your comments-

You speak of (I am paraphrasing here) Obama trying to push a Socialist agenda. Nothing could be further from the truth. Obama is a middle of the road politician. Sure, he is more Progressive in Social programs than you apparently would like, but he has deserted his voter base and has greatly disappointed.

This was my last election! I voted for the promised change that would deliver the country back to my political preference, but instead we got MORE OF THE SAME!

I have voted in every election including John F. Kennedy's. I used to believe that a party's platform made a difference. I believe things have changed radically since Reagan. Now I believe that it doesn't matter a whit which party is in control of either branch. It is all a charade.

No politician can reach the level of The Executive Branch or Congress without owing huge favors to the Corporate lobbyists. They are compelled to serve their Corporate masters. We The People (you, me, Liberals, Conservatives) are not represented. The Corporate Media only dupes you into thinking you are.

So, what we are left with is to argue ideologies here and elsewhere. That is merely an exercise in mast*rbat**n. It is silly and futile. We all need to stop this and find other ways to be friendly and civil! I understand your (and others') passion but in my opinion, it is misplaced.

For me it is interesting to read though, because there are huge chasms between people's ideologies, based on so many factors; geographical, upbringing, life's experience, being intellectually curious...or NOT, interest in other cultures, travel, and most of all...Liberals and Conservatives are just plain wired differently. I like to observe the differences and contemplate the viewpoints.

I believe our country is done. The great civilization is toast. What I am becoming is a passive bystander. I am not bitter. I am changing. I am transcending all of this B.S.. I have lost the passion because it just doesn't matter any more. What I haven't lost is my love for people and I will continue to serve them (us). I do care!
:light:



Me to Tony I just got the U2U from DM advising that I'm trolling in an attempt to cause discord. Funny how easy it is to have ones voice shut down on this subject when the right people complain. Kudos to you who ever you are for stiffeling my voice. WTG-

Cypress - 5-19-2010 at 04:48 AM

What's a liberal? The modern liberal is nothing more than a socialist.

Packoderm - 5-19-2010 at 05:18 AM

What's a conservative? The modern conservative is nothing more than a fascist - which is just as stupid of a statement as what is stated above. This extreme divisiveness just might be the undoing of our country. I like to think I'm smarter than that. Are you?

Extreme Divisiveness and the END !

MrBillM - 5-19-2010 at 09:10 AM

Yeah, that's EXACTLY what they said back in 1800.

Time and Time again since. Extreme divisiveness has been the rule rather than the exception.

It's Amusing that divided opposition was a "Patriotic" duty according to Pustule Pelosi and the DC Mongols when GWB was in office. Now that Offalman has ascended to the Throne of Saint Karl, opposition is BAD and destined to destroy the country.

Yeah, Right.

We can only Work and HOPE for the CHANGE that will DESTROY the goals set by the current Reich.

Meanwhile, back on point and on a lighter note, I saw yesterday where Darwin triumphed again at an Immigration-Rights protest held at a John McCain office. After attempting to disperse the Sit-In crowd, police arrested three "Refusniks" who turned out to be Illegal Aliens and will be turned over for Deportation. Those on both sides of the issue should applaud their misfortune. We simply don't need anymore people THAT Stupid.

[Edited on 5-19-2010 by MrBillM]

k-rico - 5-19-2010 at 09:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM

It's Amusing that divided opposition was a "Patriotic" duty according to Pustule Pelosi and the DC Mongols when GWB was in office. Now that Offalman has ascended to the Throne of Saint Karl, opposition is BAD and destined to destroy the country.

[Edited on 5-19-2010 by MrBillM]


Not only is it amusing, it makes perfect sense. ;D

Cypress - 5-19-2010 at 09:58 AM

So you'd like to think of yourself as being smart? I'd like to think of you as being smart also.:D

toneart - 5-19-2010 at 02:22 PM

:yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn::yawn:

Following the Arizona Example

MrBillM - 5-19-2010 at 04:00 PM

Costa Mesa, California

Talk about backlash!

tripledigitken - 5-19-2010 at 04:08 PM

This probably won't happen but............

Power Play Over Immigration Law
LA's boycott resolution sparks a threat over power the city receives from Arizona
By JONATHAN LLOYD and ROBERT KOVACIK
Updated 3:38 PM PDT, Wed, May 19, 2010

An Arizona utility commissioner said he's willing to pull the plug on Los Angeles if the city goes through with a boycott of his state.
In a letter to the city of LA, a member of Arizona's power commission said he would ask Arizona utility companies to cut off the power supply to Los Angeles. LA gets about 25 percent of its power from Arizona.
"That is one commissioner who has that idea -- whether he can do that or not is another idea," said LA Councilman Dennis Zine. "They are the ones who have to make the move, not us."
The commissioner's power grid play is in response to the city's approval of a resolution directing city staff to consider which contracts with Arizona can be terminated.

mtgoat666 - 5-19-2010 at 04:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
Costa Mesa, California


it will be easy to boycott costa crapa, because there is nothing worthwhile in cost crapa.

DENNIS - 5-19-2010 at 04:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
Costa Mesa, California


Prodded by nextdoor neighbor, Newport Beach, I'm sure. :bounce:

mtgoat666 - 5-19-2010 at 04:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken
This probably won't happen but............

Power Play Over Immigration Law
LA's boycott resolution sparks a threat over power the city receives from Arizona
By JONATHAN LLOYD and ROBERT KOVACIK
Updated 3:38 PM PDT, Wed, May 19, 2010

An Arizona utility commissioner said he's willing to pull the plug on Los Angeles if the city goes through with a boycott of his state.
In a letter to the city of LA, a member of Arizona's power commission said he would ask Arizona utility companies to cut off the power supply to Los Angeles. LA gets about 25 percent of its power from Arizona.
"That is one commissioner who has that idea -- whether he can do that or not is another idea," said LA Councilman Dennis Zine. "They are the ones who have to make the move, not us."
The commissioner's power grid play is in response to the city's approval of a resolution directing city staff to consider which contracts with Arizona can be terminated.


I recommend that in retaliation the CA National Guard go to Colorado River and appropriate all of Arizona's allotment of Colorado River. Next we enslave all zonies found living in CA and set up system so Californians may pick up free slave laborers at any Home Depot.

mtgoat666 - 5-19-2010 at 04:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken
This probably won't happen but............

Power Play Over Immigration Law
LA's boycott resolution sparks a threat over power the city receives from Arizona
By JONATHAN LLOYD and ROBERT KOVACIK
Updated 3:38 PM PDT, Wed, May 19, 2010

An Arizona utility commissioner said he's willing to pull the plug on Los Angeles if the city goes through with a boycott of his state.
In a letter to the city of LA, a member of Arizona's power commission said he would ask Arizona utility companies to cut off the power supply to Los Angeles. LA gets about 25 percent of its power from Arizona.
"That is one commissioner who has that idea -- whether he can do that or not is another idea," said LA Councilman Dennis Zine. "They are the ones who have to make the move, not us."
The commissioner's power grid play is in response to the city's approval of a resolution directing city staff to consider which contracts with Arizona can be terminated.


Zonies are brilliant. The CA boycott of AZ is not hurting AZ business, so zonies want to feel more pain and devise plan to voluntarily cut sales to CA.

Bajahowodd - 5-19-2010 at 04:25 PM

The threatened cut-off of power is a total non-starter. LADWP is a partial owner of the generating plants. If anyone ought to be upset if would be the Native Americans on whose land the coal is mined for the plants.

This is a prime example of the 24 hour news cycle, cable TV and Fox News, and why they are all responsible for the unneeded shrillness of today's public discourse. They are only doing what they do to sell toilet paper, Viagra and defective Japanese cars.

Udo - 5-19-2010 at 04:29 PM

This was forwarded to me by a friend in Tucson


We, in Arizona , know you're boycotting us -- but you really should come out here and see our Beautiful Sonoran Desert .



It's just gorgeous right now! We know you'd love it and maybe you can share what you saw with the rest of the country so they can love it too!



This is on an 'illegal super - highway' from Mexico to the USA ( Tucson ) used by human smugglers.


This area is located in a wash, approximately 1.5 miles long, just south of Tucson , Arizona . If a flood came, all this would be washed to the river and then onto the sea!



It is estimated over 5,000 discarded backpacks are in this wash. Countless water containers, food wrappers, clothing, feces, including thousands of soiled baby diapers. And as you can see in this picture, fresh footprints leading right into it.





As we kept walking down the wash, we thought for sure it was going to end, but around every corner was more and more trash!





And of course the trail leading out of the wash in our city, heads directly NORTH to Tucson , then leads to your town tomorrow.






They've already come through here. Isn't Arizona just beautiful, America ?

Why would you boycott us???



Our desert has basically been turned into a landfill.





The trash left behind by people illegally crossing our border is another Environmental Disaster to hit the USA .



If these actions had been done in one of our Northwest Forests or Seashore National Parks areas, there would be an uprising of the American people.....but this is the Arizona-Mexican border.



You won't see these pictures on CNN, ABC, NBC or the Arizona Republic Repugnant newspaper. Nor will they mention the disease that comes from the uncovered human waste left in our desert.


However, with respect to CNN, ABC & NBC, they do offer us "Special Reports" on cheating celebrity spouses....

This information needs to be seen by the rest of the country.

Capt. Mike and Cabo Ron should enjoy this one!

[Edited on 5-19-2010 by Udo]

[Edited on 5-19-2010 by Udo]

[Edited on 5-19-2010 by Udo]

DENNIS - 5-19-2010 at 04:38 PM

I don't know, Udo. These pictures beg a million questions.
What do these people do...get to that point in their journey and take off all their clothes?
And what about uncovered animal waste, such as cows. What diseases do they spread?

It just strikes me as a bit hyperbolic, these photos and claims and nothing will hurt the legitimate cause in Arizona as much as theatrical nonsense. It may sound mean, but I hope those pictures are real.

Udo - 5-19-2010 at 04:44 PM

When I first looked at the photos, Dennis, I thought these were from Mexico.
I am sure you have seen this mess in Mexico as well, Dennis, huh?:fire:

DENNIS - 5-19-2010 at 04:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Udo
When I first looked at the photos, Dennis, I thought these were from Mexico.
I am sure you have seen this mess in Mexico as well, Dennis, huh?:fire:


Only at the dump.

Udo - 5-19-2010 at 04:51 PM

Congratulations, DENNIS!:P


I are the 1000th poster on this topic!:tumble:

wessongroup - 5-19-2010 at 04:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
The threatened cut-off of power is a total non-starter. LADWP is a partial owner of the generating plants. If anyone ought to be upset if would be the Native Americans on whose land the coal is mined for the plants.

This is a prime example of the 24 hour news cycle, cable TV and Fox News, and why they are all responsible for the unneeded shrillness of today's public discourse. They are only doing what they do to sell toilet paper, Viagra and defective Japanese cars.


And what was the Mayor of LA doing... please... take a look at the Mexican populations between in LA and in Phoenix/Tucson .... yeah.. they will not be visiting and buying gas and food.. please...

SoCal is like 43% Mexican, not sure on Phoenix/Tucson now a days... would bet to be around the same... the numbers are the numbers...

Let's focus on the point of law which is in debate ...... not all this other stuff plus your aunt Molly's tamales... :lol::lol:

Skeet/Loreto - 5-19-2010 at 04:57 PM

If you PUNKS think that AMERICA is going down, you have another think Coming.

Just look at the Gun Sales in Texas! If you Punks don't look out we will take care of you like we did at the Alamo!!

We can defeat these Weak Minded Liberals without any Trouble/

DENNIS - 5-19-2010 at 05:17 PM

Give'm hell, Skeeter. :O

Bajahowodd - 5-19-2010 at 05:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Udo
When I first looked at the photos, Dennis, I thought these were from Mexico.
I am sure you have seen this mess in Mexico as well, Dennis, huh?:fire:


Only at the dump.


It's the wonder of the internet. Any joker can post whatever they want. It's up to the beholder to make a conscious decision as to its veracity.

DENNIS - 5-19-2010 at 05:38 PM

Legal battle against Arizona’s law could become complicated



Wednesday, 5/19/10

__________________

El Financiero (Mexico City) 5/18/10

A press report states that a legal memorandum dating to the administration of ex-President George W. Bush could complicate Barack Obama’s efforts to confront Arizona’s law SB1070. If the government decides to start legal action to prevent that law from going into effect, the document seems to be in conflict with the central argument that legal experts anticipate would be the core of the official case.

The existence of the document, written in 2002, turns out to be ironic because of the current administration’s intention to confront a law which President Barack Obama has called “ill guided.” The document from the Office of Legal Counsel of the Department of Justice concluded that local law enforcement has the “inherent power” to detain undocumented immigrants for violation of a federal law. The author of the Arizona law cited the authority granted to local law enforcement in that memorandum as a basis for the controversial legislation.

The Obama administration has not rescinded the memorandum, and a legal action on the part of the Department of Justice would be embarrassing at least. Robert Driscoll, an ex-official of the Department of Justice, who represents a sheriff in Arizona, pointed out how difficult it would be to “charge someone for carrying out the authority which the Department says they have.” The Attorney General, Eric Holder, has stated that his office is considering a lawsuit against Arizona and that the Civil Rights Division is conducting legal consultations on the matter.

Cecilia Wang, a lawyer with the ACLU, rejected the complications that the 2002 memorandum may cause because the Arizona law, she said, “goes much further” than the basic authority that document grants in order to carry out arrests.

http://www.elfinanciero.com.mx/ElFinanciero/Portal/cfpages/c...

____

Bajahowodd - 5-19-2010 at 05:42 PM

Time will tell. We all know that the Bush era legal posture was to devise any and all form of support to do whatever they felt like doing. If anything, I think that conservatives should realize that much of what Obama has done and not done, has served to alienate his supposed liberal base. Damned if he does; Damned if he doesn't.

k-rico - 5-19-2010 at 06:35 PM

I've seen folks post numbers about how many favor or oppose the AZ law. Here are the numbers from Gallup.

Interesting website, my first visit.

+/- 4% on the numbers:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/127598/Americans-Favor-Oppose-Ari...

wessongroup - 5-19-2010 at 06:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Udo
When I first looked at the photos, Dennis, I thought these were from Mexico.
I am sure you have seen this mess in Mexico as well, Dennis, huh?:fire:


Only at the dump.


It's the wonder of the internet. Any joker can post whatever they want. It's up to the beholder to make a conscious decision as to its veracity.


Very true.. any joker!!... would offer that the vegetation is similar to what one would expect to see in the area referenced ... and another observation... now where and how would one "stage" something like this... believe on the National Geo Special they show something along these lines.. in their documentary.. a few months back.. but then I could be mistaking all that for Spring Break :lol::lol:

[Edited on 5-20-2010 by wessongroup]

DENNIS - 5-19-2010 at 07:35 PM

I'm sure I'll get no answers to my questions. That just makes me more nervous.
I am, in no way, calling fraud. Just asking for insight. Can anyone offer an explaination as to why there is so much clothing on the ground. The pictures I've seen of moving migrants show most of them empty handed and if they're carrying anything, it's water.

mtgoat666 - 5-19-2010 at 07:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
I don't know, Udo. These pictures beg a million questions.
What do these people do...get to that point in their journey and take off all their clothes?
And what about uncovered animal waste, such as cows. What diseases do they spread?

It just strikes me as a bit hyperbolic, these photos and claims and nothing will hurt the legitimate cause in Arizona as much as theatrical nonsense. It may sound mean, but I hope those pictures are real.


those photos simply tell me how hard people try to get to US to serve burritos to and tend gardens of lard-butt gringos that never struggled a day in their life. in striving for opportunity, they abandon their few, meager possesions they carried on their backs.

i will now root even more loudly for the downtrodden poor and huddled masses. i hope they owners of all those abandoned possessions reached their goals and found peace and happiness.

[Edited on 5-20-2010 by mtgoat666]

mtgoat666 - 5-19-2010 at 07:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
I'm sure I'll get no answers to my questions. That just makes me more nervous.
I am, in no way, calling fraud. Just asking for insight. Can anyone offer an explaination as to why there is so much clothing on the ground. The pictures I've seen of moving migrants show most of them empty handed and if they're carrying anything, it's water.


people are exhausted after walking across desert and abandon items in struggle to soldier onward.

Packoderm - 5-19-2010 at 08:23 PM

If they had tamper-proof immigration cards that allowed employment in various industries here in the U.S. that have proven to have a genuine and substantial labor shortage, I would welcome any number of immigrants from any country to fill those positions. Not a problem unless the population gets out of hand. What we do not need, however, is immigrant labor facilitating the downward pressure on wages for jobs suitable for hard-working non-college graduates to the point that every single one of these jobs will become jobs that only illegal immigrants will take. Mexico has the money and natural resources to build a viable economy. This sneaking across the border nonsense that serves as a pressure relief valve is only postponing the the necessity for Mexico to do so. I'm sorry, but Mexican employers are going to have to start paying their workers a living wage. They're the real sinners in this big picture - not Arizona.

capt. mike - 5-20-2010 at 05:45 AM

good points Packy. you are right on target.
Mexico has to step up and take care of their own.
they need to create and support a middle class - Goat wants to speak of lard a$$ ricos in the States exploiting these poor souls....maybe he needs to be more critical of the Mexican wealthy....they seem to exhibit ZERO egalantarianism.
in fact - i can tell you from experience as i have interloped with many rico Mexicans - they often look down their noses at their own huddled masses with disdain...very ethnocentric class of people i must say.

Cypress - 5-20-2010 at 05:52 AM

Packoderm, You are smart!:yes:
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