BajaNomad

Jimena

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JESSE - 9-6-2009 at 03:16 AM

We are off to Mulege Sunday with food and supplies, and to the Zaragoza-Santo Domingo area on monday, if anybody wants to send something, you can drop it off at the restaurant before we leave.

Gracias

Diver - 9-6-2009 at 05:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Quote:
Originally posted by EngineerMike
Given the narrower cross section at the bridge, the difference had to be more there.


Well, that does not make any sense to me. A narrower cross section in a fluid flow would cause the velocity of the water flow to increase (Bernoulli's principle), but not much of an increase in the height of the water. If it were an inviscid fluid, I could tell you the height would not increase at all. But water does have some viscosity -- not much -- so you might get a small rise.


You are wrong - try studying open-channel flow - "hydraulic jump".

Don Chano's in Mulege?

Cypress - 9-6-2009 at 05:55 AM

Any word on how they fared?:?:

Hook - 9-6-2009 at 06:05 AM

I believe there are photos in the Carlos Milon link.

Dianamo - 9-6-2009 at 07:25 AM

Did anyone in Baja get a total amount of precipitation from Jimena? I saw the post from Sonora indicating 30 inches in 27 hours.

Ciudad Constitucion

aldosalato - 9-6-2009 at 07:30 AM

I went to visit Cd. Constitucion yesterday and the town is slowly getting back services. Many shops are open and food supply or gasoline are not a problem at moment. Construction materials are running out but probably there will be more supplies coming next week from La Paz.
Still it has been a miracle that there have been so little human loss in such a devastation. The worse in human memory in the area.
Now main problem will be how to rebuild all lost farming infrastructure to keep all lost jobs due to hurricane. Many farmer will not have the capital to reinvest in their own fields and infrastructure and will have to sell at very low prices their land or machinery. The risk is that the area could become a ghost town ............it will take at least 7 years to make back what was lost in terms of capital.
Program from the federal Government to give minimum salary of 53 Pesos per day to people that want to work in the area is not going to help either. People in the area need at least a 200 Pesos a day salary to have a hope to recover in the medium term otherwise they will abandon the area and find jobs somewhere else.
Charity will help in next few days especially in marginal areas and communities but after a couple of weeks only jobs of 200 Pesos per day will keep people in the area.

capt. mike - 9-6-2009 at 07:37 AM

Update from BBP:

I am in Cd Constitucion. Spent the day with the RC working out details and doing a 3 hour flight reviewing the damage with the RC. The major loss is in Mulege. Will figure out some way to get there in the morning. All dirt strips are a sea of mud. From the air the Senerad looked as if it got a lot of water.
Cloths shoes bedding mess blue tarps rope is critical. Keep collecting. I am making arrangements for all our stuff to go to Mulege. Mike Bidwell (owner AZ Cardinals football) flew in a load of GatorAid. Working from my iPhone. Will make a full report. Red cross is trying to get money for the choppers. May or may not happen. Mulege got pounded. If I get there my first priority is to get a landing strip. More later. Jack@BBP

Mulege SITREP- Sunday Sept. 6th

Mexrick - 9-6-2009 at 08:16 AM

Sunday Morning
Sept. 6, 2009

Good morning everyone. Greetings from the battle zone. First, let me apologize for not being able to keep up with the requests for information and pictures. I just haven't had the time and have been overwhelmed with requests. Today, God willing, I am going to go to Loma Azul, the area near Jungel Jim's and a couple of places in the Orchard and Oasis that I misses on the first pass. I'll try to get a slide show on the web site this evening and I'll put out at least a short report of what I found in the aforementioned areas.

Now for the SITREP (That's government-speak for Situation Report):

We have some commercial electricity in town that is being supplied by a half dozen emergency diesel generators. I was told by some CFE guys that a large plant was on the way from La Paz to run the water pumps until commercial power can be restored. That may be longer than I thought as a person driving down from Santa Rosalia reported at least 6-8 transmission poles down. Luckily, those are not the towers but are very tall power poles that can be replaced rather quickly.

Still no water but, hopefully, tank trucks will be able to fill our hotel pilas today so we can bathe. Some of us are still using collected rainwater to bathe. It ain't the best but it's better than the alternative and you really do feel a lot better afterward. Telephone is spotty. I have a telephone at my house now but the line to my in-laws doesn't work. We are, therefore, the neighborhood telephone store. Cell service (at least Telmex) has been restored. I don't have Movie Star so I can comment on it's availability.

Roads are passable north and south although the road through Santa Rosalia is a bit circuitous and rough in spots. The large sweeping bridge south of town is out as previously reported but only the ends collapsed... the part connecting the bridge to the highway. That's a lot better that one report I heard that it was totally washed out. They should be able to get that repaired rather quickly. The detour (bulldozed road) around the bridge(s) that were being constructed near Palo Verde is still that... a detour but it is passable. A guy drove in this morning from Guerrero Negro and gave me the above report. My brother-in-law came in last night from Cabo so I know the roads to the south are open.

Now for the location reports:

Disclaimer- Anything I say that is outside of the immediate Mulege area is from sources other than my personal observation but from what I consider to be reliable. This isn't the gospel but it's the best I have.

Loma Azul- reports of considerable but not entire wind damage. Some roofs were lost but, from most reports, only partially. In those cases, water damage from the rain obviously occurred. Further report hopefully tonight.

Downtown Mulege- already reported

Mulege- north side of the river: Widespread destruction. Don Chano's was hit hard and little is left. I don't know if anything is salvageable. If I get a reliable report on that question, I'll report it. El Patron is gone I'm afraid. It's a total rebuild if Tim decides to do that. Information is a bit more sketchy about Pancho Villas but I think it's a good assumption that the report is the same as that for the el Patron.

Mulege- south side: Everything on the south side, from the bridge to and including the Serenidad took a major hit. Damage was worse closer to the bridge. For all practical purposed, the Orchard is wasted. The first row has only three houses left and there are some missing homes in the second row as well. Rows three and four are probably repairable in most cases. I'm checking this morning on rebuilding requirements for the area. Be aware that the city may decide to hold a moratorium on rebuilding as they have done in the past. The length and scope of such moratoriums varies. I'm going to ask the government officials today if they have implemented such a moratorium and, if so, what the restrictions are. The Oasis fared a little better at least in the sense that total destruction was less noticeable. There is a lot of what I would call partial destruction- roofs, rooms, garages, storage buildings, trailers... that sort of thing.

Jungle area, Marybelle's - reports of "intermittent" damage, mainly to out buildings and/or partial damage to structures. More later after I've had a chance to get in there today (hopefully) and check it out more closely.

Posada Concepcion- Took a major hit. I have pictures of widespread damage. I did not see any pictures of what I would consider total destruction but, after review, the decision of the owners in some cases may be not to rebuild.

Burro and Coyote- Reports from Geary Ritchie (Burro) of a lot of damage. Reports are sketchy as he didn't give me a full report. He just said that they took a big hit. I would expect something like Posada, probably a little less but that is pure speculation on my part... something I do not like to do. I'm just reading between the lines. I'll try to get more information today.


DONATIONS: To donate to the relief efforts, please go to my web site (www.mulege-mls.com) where I will have information posted shortly. All help, of whatever nature, will be greatly appreciated. Clothes, money and food are in short supply. There is a military kitchen set up at the Kinder school in Mulege to serve the people and they are relying on donations of food to cook for the people. If you come down, bring something to throw in the pot. Don't forget the baby food, diapers and dog food.

That's about it for this morning. I'm off to the web site to put the donation information.


Regards,

Rick


--
Rick Barber
Pelican Reef Real Estate Center
Mulegé, BCS, Mexico
www.mulege-mls.com
Cel: (615) 161-5499

shari - 9-6-2009 at 08:23 AM

thanks so much for your heroic efforts here. We are getting stuff together to send out with the coop truck.

austriaco - 9-6-2009 at 08:39 AM

what Carlos said was
a) a brief report about what happened in Mulege and
b) what was in their eyes mostly needed at the moment
which is:

cloths
canned food
pampers for kids and adults
toilett stuff for ladies (I do not know the correct expression in english)
sheets and blankets etc.

thats all I remember

vandenberg - 9-6-2009 at 08:57 AM

Getting more pictures of the devastation will not only help raising awareness of the situation and likely have a positive impact on donations. Good work Rick.
Making it a one click site:

http://www.mulege-mls.com

Bonair - 9-6-2009 at 09:11 AM

The message is from the Pueblo of Mulege via Carlos Milan. Thanks Austriaco for reposting it.

Mulegena - 9-6-2009 at 09:25 AM

Rick Barber will be taking more photos today, posting tonight if possible. Thanks so much everyone for your continued personal effort and concern. Lisa Maria

mulegemichael - 9-6-2009 at 09:34 AM

rick...we cannot tell you how invaluable you are...you have just become our new best friend...we'll be there soon with relief.

How did Los Naranjos near Mulege do?

k-rico - 9-6-2009 at 09:37 AM

Due to their "light" construction technique, I'm wondering how the houses did at Playa Los Naranjos.

I briefly considered buying one a couple of years ago.

CasaChristie - 9-6-2009 at 10:09 AM

I hope this work. At the website below are pictures of Posada Concepcion damage. It is very bad and I am so sorry for everyone's loss.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jjchristie/sets/

Click on Hurricane Jemina Posada

[Edited on 9-6-2009 by CasaChristie]

DENNIS - 9-6-2009 at 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by CasaChristie
I hope this work. At the website below are pictures of Posada Concepcion damage. It is very bad and I am so sorry for everyone's loss.




Thanks Christie....Bad damage, for sure. It seems to be roofs and roofing that were the weakest point. I wonder if the tenants will learn from this and rebuild for strength and durability rather than the Gilligan's Island effect. Palm Fronds and Tejas Tile in a Tropical Storm zone? Makes no sense.

CasaChristie - 9-6-2009 at 10:52 AM

Here is website for damage pictures from Los Naranjos

http://www.mulege.org/nar2009/nar.htm

[Edited on 9-6-2009 by CasaChristie]

[Edited on 9-6-2009 by BajaNomad]

arrowhead - 9-6-2009 at 10:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diver
You are wrong - try studying open-channel flow - "hydraulic jump".


I beg to differ. Hydraulic jump occurs when the velocity of the water flow suddenly decreases. When an open channel is suddenly narrowed, the velocity of the water flow increases, just as Bernoulli's Principle states. Because the frictional resistance varies with velocity, the pressure drops and the water height actually drops.

If what I say is not true, then airplanes would not fly.

arrowhead - 9-6-2009 at 10:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by austriaco
toilett stuff for ladies (I do not know the correct expression in english)


The Spanish translates as "feminine hygiene napkins".

CasaChristie - 9-6-2009 at 10:59 AM

Our friends Pierre & Chris have a home on Santispac. It's a rock house at the north end of the beach. They have not heard anything about it and were wondering if anyone had any information. I know Ana's lost their roof and had considerable damage. Any information would be appreciated.

There are also two homes at Playa Arena at the south end of the beach. We heard that one lost some of the roof, but that was sketchy news. If anyone know anything about those two homes they would appreciate that also.

Thank you Nomad community for such great reporting and pictures. It really helps all of us to formulate our plans for coming down. We feel fortunate that our place is still standing with what seems to be minor damage compared to many.

[Edited on 9-6-2009 by CasaChristie]

monoloco - 9-6-2009 at 12:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by CasaChristie
I hope this work. At the website below are pictures of Posada Concepcion damage. It is very bad and I am so sorry for everyone's loss.




Thanks Christie....Bad damage, for sure. It seems to be roofs and roofing that were the weakest point. I wonder if the tenants will learn from this and rebuild for strength and durability rather than the Gilligan's Island effect. Palm Fronds and Tejas Tile in a Tropical Storm zone? Makes no sense.
Actually palapa roofs do quite well if constructed in the traditional manner of tying everything together using zoyate and datil. The problems arise when cutting corners and nailing the fronds to pine fajias. We have a palapa near Todos Santos which has weathered every hurricane since Fausto with virtually no damage.

Bajahowodd - 9-6-2009 at 12:09 PM

Thanks to all who have been sending out damage reports and photos. The damages are startling.

Maybe it's just me, but I see Mother Nature having an awful sense of irony, in that almost simultaneous to the great deluge in Baja, LA County experienced the largest (in area) wild fire in history. 148,000 acres burned, 64 homes destroyed, additional destruction to commercial structure and out buildings, and the is now only 49% contained. In the scheme of things, LA and Mulege are not that far from each other.

toneart - 9-6-2009 at 12:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Quote:
Originally posted by EngineerMike
Given the narrower cross section at the bridge, the difference had to be more there.


Well, that does not make any sense to me. A narrower cross section in a fluid flow would cause the velocity of the water flow to increase (Bernoulli's principle), but not much of an increase in the height of the water. If it were an inviscid fluid, I could tell you the height would not increase at all. But water does have some viscosity -- not much -- so you might get a small rise.


All I know is that the Capillary action is causing the water in my head to rise into my brain making it even mushier than it already was.(At my age, that is a lot of water under and over the bridge). I am turning into a Hydrocephalic and in need of relief from the pressure.:rolleyes:

Thank you...

toneart - 9-6-2009 at 12:15 PM

Rick Barber, Capt. Mike and Engineer Mike, for all you are doing!!!

wadeinthewater - 9-6-2009 at 12:56 PM

Just so you folks know, I am writing a feature for Western Outdoor News today that will be online tomorrow and in hard copy mid-week and focuses on the BBP and Mulege donation sites, as well as some numbers to help those stateside understand. I have no idea how or what coverage this is getting up there.

Robin Wade
Baja Editor
Western Outdoos News

Bajahowodd - 9-6-2009 at 01:01 PM

Try, like zero. Look forward to your article.

Bob and Susan - 9-6-2009 at 01:01 PM

punta arena...

2 houses

one lost part of the roof

the other is fine

a guard is there now 24-7 doing cleanup work

DENNIS - 9-6-2009 at 01:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by monoloco

Actually palapa roofs do quite well if constructed in the traditional manner of tying everything together using zoyate and datil. The problems arise when cutting corners and nailing the fronds to pine fajias. We have a palapa near Todos Santos which has weathered every hurricane since Fausto with virtually no damage.


Real Palapa roof construction is a skill as well as an art. Fifty years ago, I would sit for hours in a park in PV and watch to construction of a huge one. I'll bet it's still there today.
That said, do you think those raggedy grass roofs we see in the damage fotos fall into that catagory? I don't.

Just in from Bill Havig in Mulege:

EngineerMike - 9-6-2009 at 01:11 PM

It was Art who got stuck not me (@ Serenidad where there was about a meter of water; earlier rumor had Bill & Judy wading out from there). We are at the Mulege Hotel, I,m at Ellan's at the Bay, Sat. Internet,

Much worse than John, Had about 7 ft of water (@ Bills house, east end of Oasis & next the the Jungle; Bill's house is about 18" above ground level so 8.5' water there based on his 7' estimate), can't get in the garage yet. The town looks like a war zone. I have been to the house only 2 times, one time just looked in the window, went back yesterday... only stayed for 5 minutes, The Orchard is almost gone. we had to have over 100 mile hour winds

CFE just brought in a lot of Temp. Power. we have a little elect at the hotel but no A C. As for needs right now my head is not on right and i can't think of anything now, maybe a gas pressure washer, put mine up on the scaffold, but i think water got it, if i don't need it i'm sure some one will.

So much for sand bags, But Judy and i are fine, had one hell of a Hurricane party Wed. at the hotel, must be 15 of us.

Bajahowodd - 9-6-2009 at 01:13 PM

http://bajaquest.com/jimena/oasis.htm

I apologize in advance if this is redundant. Slide show of Oasis and Orchard.

Diver - 9-6-2009 at 01:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Quote:
Originally posted by Diver
You are wrong - try studying open-channel flow - "hydraulic jump".


I beg to differ. Hydraulic jump occurs when the velocity of the water flow suddenly decreases. When an open channel is suddenly narrowed, the velocity of the water flow increases, just as Bernoulli's Principle states. Because the frictional resistance varies with velocity, the pressure drops and the water height actually drops.

If what I say is not true, then airplanes would not fly.


OK, don't believe me ! Your choice.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_jump

High velocity water hitting an obstruction or narrowing will attempt to both increase velocity and column height as the obstruction causes turbulent flow and slows down the column. The release of water from the obstruction occurs with slower velocity into the more open channel beyond the obstruction......this difference and the surface tension/friction between the 2 flows will cause a "jump".

And if you don't believe this - FINE ! :P :lol:

Cypress - 9-6-2009 at 01:43 PM

If you're living in a big arroyo(a drainage area) and the rains come, you're gonna get wet. Geez! This is the second time in 5 yrs. that Mulege has been flooded. Water velocity? Surface tension? Friction? Can call it whatever you want, but the bottom line is "don't live in a flood zone".

Bajahowodd - 9-6-2009 at 01:45 PM

Thanks for the dose of reality, Cypress. It was becoming an academic waste of time, in that whoever was correct mattered not at all to the victims.

Ignacio Springs B&B

LaRibereña - 9-6-2009 at 01:56 PM

I just received this email from Terry who is apparently in Canada right now.


Well, I just got off the phone with Jane Ames in San Ignacio and it looks very bad for Ignacio Springs. I got word through the poliice that Gary and Peter are staying with Salvador, and that the flood was much bigger than anything we have experienced in the past and definitely went over our wall as it was 2 meter higher than the highest we have had. They are OK but the task ahead is immense. The funeral for my brother is today and I do not have a return ticket yet but I need to make some decisions soon I guess. I really need to be here but I really want to be with Gary. There is no electricity and who knows for how long that will be. The flooding is subsiding now so the work can begin I guess. I will keep you posted if I hear from Gary. Thank you all for your concern.
Terry

Cypress - 9-6-2009 at 02:00 PM

Bajahowodd, Reality. Yea, it's sad. One of those things, referred to as a "wake-up" call. Most of the local folks live above the flood zone. Most of the Gringos don't live in the flood zone, they have "camps" down there, and visit for a few weeks out of the year.:no:

EngineerMike - 9-6-2009 at 02:10 PM

Got a u2u and follow up w/a bi-lingual Nomad near S.D. She will be checking w/the Consulate on Tuesday about Aduana and donations crossing the border.

Previous rules about donations (based on experience w/a fire truck donated to Mulege) are as follows:
1) make a manifest showing the details of the donation: piece count, size(s), description(s), and value, just as though making a list to pay duty.
2) obtain a form for duty waiver, or have an official (in our fire truck case the Governor's office) get the forms, and fill them out.
3) the receiving agency (this is where it gets sticky) signs for acceptance of the donation. If it is a medical donation, that's ISSTE. If its a fire truck, the Govenrnor. If its food, clothing, blankets- I haven't a clue who is authorized to officially "accept" that stuff
4) proceed to Otay Mesa where the load will be inspected for consistency w/the manifest and cleared. (haven't a clue if this can go thru San Ysidro).
5) take donation to its recipients in Baja.

The Nomad thinks the form can be obtained at the Consulate, and signature obtained there as well. Facts to be ascertained are:
1) does the load need to set at the Consulate for their inspection to obtain the signature,
2) can the form be downloaded from the internet,
3) can the form be submitted and signature obtained in advance of hitting S.D. (by some advance volunteer) so drivers can pick up the signed form & scoot
4) does relief of this sort require the "acceptance" process as described above, which will probably make it infeasible due to accepting org's other priorities at this point; maybe that will be possible in a week or 10 days

This just in from a Mexican national of Mulege- locals are scared to death this will kill tourism in Mulege sufficiently to utterly collapse the local economy, which is already in extreme dire straights because of economic malaise in the U.S. With the loss of homes in La Fortuna, Orchard, Oasis, and the hard hits further downstream, lots of folks will consider bunching it.

shari - 9-6-2009 at 02:20 PM

I imagine the local red cross or proteccion civil or municipal police could sign for donations brought across the border no problema...or the delegado...probably can be faxed or scanned and printed, signed and emailed back too.

what does "bunching it" mean?

Bajahowodd - 9-6-2009 at 02:38 PM

I'm guessing he means something akin to walking away. There was an earlier post that mentioned the government may place a moratorium on building. That said, I suspect that any project that could help protect against a repeat of this problem would have to be massive in scope and extremely expensive. Dollars and cents-wise, I just don't think there's enough population in the area to justify the size of financial commitment it would take to actually make a difference. That also would translate into not being politically popular. Time will tell. Who knows? There may be a ton of folks willing to place a bet along the river, just looking at the odds for a repeat anytime soon.

DENNIS - 9-6-2009 at 02:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EngineerMike
This just in from a Mexican national of Mulege- locals are scared to death this will kill tourism in Mulege sufficiently to utterly collapse the local economy, which is already in extreme dire straights because of economic malaise in the U.S. With the loss of homes in La Fortuna, Orchard, Oasis, and the hard hits further downstream, lots of folks will consider bunching it.


Pretty much like New Orleans after Katrina.

DENNIS - 9-6-2009 at 02:43 PM

Speaking of Katrina...didn't Mexico send relief workers to New Orleans?
Nobility sees no border.


Maybe that was the fires. Can't remember everything.

[Edited on 9-6-2009 by DENNIS]

EngineerMike - 9-6-2009 at 02:54 PM

Bunching it: throwing in the towel, giving up, not coming back

I'm hoping you are right Shari, about faxes or scans. My experience leads to expect otherwise, with the official penchant for colored ink and agency stamps. In the U.S. most processes like these would be morphed to meet the need, with some official issuing a temporary exception. In Mexico my experience has been that federal agencies don't much care about the states when it is their (federal agency) budget that misses out on income. So this is very much an issue of federal agency sanity in an agency much given to corruption over many years.

That said, there is a wholesale new regime in place. I have high hopes for Aduana's new foot soldiers. But they have to have sensible guidelines from above.

EngineerMike - 9-6-2009 at 02:57 PM

As to placing bets along the river, I know two homeowners at the Oasis who got insurance within the last month, and many more who have had it for years. Actuarials at the insurance agencies didn't seem to have an issue up to that point. We'll see going forward.

Cypress - 9-6-2009 at 02:58 PM

DENNIS, Katrina didn't hit New Orleans. Katrina hit the Mississippi Gulf Coast. New Orleans is below sea level and was flooded due to lack of maintenance on flood pumps etc. The money was spent on "ghost employees" and other such frauds by the city govt. and they re-elected the same theives with full knowledge of their crimes. By the way, Mexico probably sent some folks down to help. They probably won't be going back any time soon. Another Wake-up Call!

Marie-Rose - 9-6-2009 at 03:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by LaRibereña
I just received this email from Terry who is apparently in Canada right now.


Well, I just got off the phone with Jane Ames in San Ignacio and it looks very bad for Ignacio Springs. I got word through the poliice that Gary and Peter are staying with Salvador, and that the flood was much bigger than anything we have experienced in the past and definitely went over our wall as it was 2 meter higher than the highest we have had. They are OK but the task ahead is immense. The funeral for my brother is today and I do not have a return ticket yet but I need to make some decisions soon I guess. I really need to be here but I really want to be with Gary. There is no electricity and who knows for how long that will be. The flooding is subsiding now so the work can begin I guess. I will keep you posted if I hear from Gary. Thank you all for your concern.
Terry



I am so very sad to hear about this. I can only hope that the damages are repairable. I just hate to think of the lovely antique furniture that belonged to Terry's grandmother... in my favorite yurt:no: Unfortunately it is the yurt right next to the wall. Please pass on my heartfelt regards to both Terry and Gary and let them know that we are thinking about them.

[Edited on 2009-9-6 by Marie-Rose]

Sharksbaja - 9-6-2009 at 03:24 PM

and according to one Nomad, we are blessed.

What a guy!

:(

So you think those who suffered damage from John should have not fixed their places, rather abandon their homes? Walk away? WTF?

Think about that.


Regardless of what extent you suffered it's the landowners or Fido holders to clean up their mess and not burden the city or others with doing so. Moreover, a return to a more user friendly area should be considered.

Think how it use to be. It was a place for camping and visiting in a palm oasis. It can still be that. Big permanent homes replaced palapa courtyards which would be easily replaced after a flood.

Frankly though if our home were rebuildable we most likely would rebuild it for a number of reasons. That game has changed the playing field for many of us now.

Enuff said. Keep the faith in Mulege. We'll be there, hope you are too.

DENNIS - 9-6-2009 at 03:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
DENNIS, Katrina didn't hit New Orleans. Katrina hit the Mississippi Gulf Coast. New Orleans is below sea level and was flooded due to lack of maintenance on flood pumps etc. The money was spent on "ghost employees" and other such frauds by the city govt. and they re-elected the same theives with full knowledge of their crimes. By the way, Mexico probably sent some folks down to help. They probably won't be going back any time soon. Another Wake-up Call!



Thanks, Cyp. I was just referring to the ruination of tourism due to the hurricane, or flooding in New Orleans.

DENNIS - 9-6-2009 at 03:39 PM

Anybody hear how BBP is doing with customs?

Cypress - 9-6-2009 at 03:40 PM

DENNIS, You're welcome. The Mississippi Gulf Coast is up and running. Check it out! New Orleans? Oh well, they're still waiting for somebody to help them.:(

Bob H - 9-6-2009 at 03:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EngineerMike
As to placing bets along the river, I know two homeowners at the Oasis who got insurance within the last month, and many more who have had it for years. Actuarials at the insurance agencies didn't seem to have an issue up to that point. We'll see going forward.


Does any of this insurance cover flooding? I can't believe that it would considering the risk to the insurance companies.
Bob H

Bob H - 9-6-2009 at 03:48 PM

I was thinking that rebuilding along the Mulege river will never be allowed again.... only at higher elevations .... maybe a road, but no dwellings... comments?
Bob H

toneart - 9-6-2009 at 03:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
Bajahowodd, Reality. Yea, it's sad. One of those things, referred to as a "wake-up" call. Most of the local folks live above the flood zone. Most of the Gringos don't live in the flood zone, they have "camps" down there, and visit for a few weeks out of the year.:no:



This is not true and it certainly is not helpful or consoling. This, coupled with some of your other absurd statements makes you a real POS!

Jeez.....here we go again. The now infamous, damned troll started spouting this nonsense after Hurricane John. We have been over and over this. Most of us do live in the flood zone and most of us are there for half a year or permanently. And yes, we are the "Mud People" whom that troll so graciously named us. You want to call us stupid too? You want to call me a "whiner" too? Well, so be it! I will commiserate with the finest people I know.

John was terrible, but we were able to clean up and look forward. Anything since the 1957 flood was doable as far as cleanup and repairing. We couldn't just walk away. Too much money was invested. Plus, you never think it will repeat year after year. The cost involved in cleanup and repair was worth it, until this one.

This Hurricane Jimena was the worst one ever!!!! EVER!. What we had was beautiful, and so was the life there. Now, for many it is totally gone!

It is a tremendous loss, economically, emotionally for all of us, Gringos and Locals alike... and literally for one local's very life! How do you think his family is feeling right now?

It is a horrific loss for the fine people who lived there, the community of present and future life long friends who are now family, and the wonderful locals who will survive this, but whose lives will never be the same. Economic times for locals were being affected already by diminished tourism, and most of them were poor to begin with. And now the outlook for their future is pretty dismal.

Cypress, if this is entertainment for you, take it to the porn movies or some other perverse form of your choice.:fire::fire:

mulegemichael - 9-6-2009 at 03:56 PM

bob...i think you are right; the powers that be have already considered not allowing any more building in that area..i think after this one we will be losing many of our neighbors in the oasis as after julio many of them were gone...this might be the proverbial "straw"...too bad....i wonder if jungle jims is still there, our little watering hole?...i will sorely miss it if it's gone

Bajahowodd - 9-6-2009 at 03:56 PM

In the US, the only flood insurance is available from the government, or at least a government sponsored entity. Maybe I'm being slightly prejudiced here, but I cannot imagine that Mexico would have flood coverage incorporated into their standard property insurance.

mulegemichael - 9-6-2009 at 03:59 PM

believe it or not, we have neighbors on the river in mulege that are still able to get flood insurance...i guess the insurance companies are rolling the dice also considering there wasnt a flood there for some 40 yrs prior to john...we don't even bother with insurance as the hassles outweigh the monetary loss...we just go in and muck it out one more time...i wonder how many more times we're gonna do it before moving to high ground...but boy, do i love having my boat at my dock and walking out my front door and fishing for snook..price ya pay for living in paradise.

arrowhead - 9-6-2009 at 04:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
If you're living in a big arroyo(a drainage area) and the rains come, you're gonna get wet. Geez! This is the second time in 5 yrs. that Mulege has been flooded.


Actually, it was the third time in four years. I think a pattern is developing.

Bajahowodd - 9-6-2009 at 04:04 PM

Tony- I can only imagine how painful this is for you. You have my deepest sympathy. As inartful and insensitive as Cypress' post was, there is some real truth involved. First, it remains to be seen whether the government will even allow rebuilding or new building. I think on the plus side, it doesn't appear that there was loss of lives. Thus, it becomes a financial decision. Governments tend to step in when there is a threat to the lives of their citizens. On the other hand, if it's just about money, they tend to back away.

mulegemichael - 9-6-2009 at 04:08 PM

dunno about "no loss of lives"....we've heard, and it's only rumor mill so far, that 20 personas, mas y mano, are missing...mostly rancheros...so sad

toneart - 9-6-2009 at 04:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob H
I was thinking that rebuilding along the Mulege river will never be allowed again.... only at higher elevations .... maybe a road, but no dwellings... comments?
Bob H


Hi Bob!

Yes, there is talk of that, but nothing official yet. It probably make good sense, after this Hurricane.

But if this is not enacted, it should certainly be a personal decision for each individual. Some will. We should not judge their personal decisions; some have something left with which to rebuild; some have faith that it will never happen again; Some are so emotionally attached to the place that they can't let it go.

The reality of this last Hurricane is so new than many have not been able to assimilate it. Besides, there is the very immediate crises of life for the locals that we need to consider first, in my opinion. Events will shake out (and dry out) in time and in increments

Time puts things in proper perspective, and those perspectives are different for each individual involved.

I have met you and Audrey and I know your concern for the people of Mulege. Your heart is in the right place.

arrowhead - 9-6-2009 at 04:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by toneart
We couldn't just walk away. Too much money was invested. Plus, you never think it will repeat year after year. The cost involved in cleanup and repair was worth it, until this one.


You know, you "mud people" could have the last laugh if you were only a little smarter about how you go about it. You want to live in the river bottom? OK. Here's how you do it. Buy yourself a house trailer on wheels and park it in the river bottom. Leave the wheels on it. Pay the land rent for your space. Every Spring when you go back north, have it moved up to high ground and tied down in a fenced yard. For those that live there full time, have a place to tow it to on high ground. There is always enough warning before the rains come.

Fight off the urge to improve your space with a house, garage, boat storage, an outhouse, etc. Just forget about it.

mulegemichael - 9-6-2009 at 04:12 PM

i second tony, bob...thanks for thinking of us and the mulege community

FancyLady - 9-6-2009 at 04:24 PM

Hello all. A family member of mine just built a casita on the other side of the river from the wrecked subdivision with the terra cotta roofs. We haven´t seen any photos, so I can guess that no news is good news. It's the camping spot that Manuel keeps with a big Mango tree and other domiciles. Do any of you know how he and his family are doing?

EngineerMike - 9-6-2009 at 05:03 PM

FancyLady- the reports on Manuel's place are not good, fairly similar to the terra cotta roof subdivisions. i.e. some houses down or "gone." However we haven't seen any photos yet.

Stay tuned, as I'm sure they will show up as conditions for access improve.

Has anybody seen Ed? First house in Don Chano's

akmaxx - 9-6-2009 at 05:19 PM

He was going to stay over the summer, I think and his house has probably been washed away. Has anybody seen him? - I don't think he checks the computer and I was wondering......

I have heard from Fam. Villavicencio (Pancho Villa's) and they all made it and are dealing with the devastation as best they can. Can't wait for the restaurant to be serving Yolanda's tasty chile relleno's once again.

Tourism is the lifeblood of Mulege, so when the damage is assessed and the basics are online, you should encourage folks to come enjoy the beaches and spend some dough in the town. Muleginos are resilient and will be smiling at everyone soon enough. The sad days will be behind us soon.

Beachgirl - 9-6-2009 at 05:43 PM

I hope when Tim...Yolanda...rebuild that it looks exactly the same, smack on the sand. Sheets of plywood, tin, funky spare parts. I love that place. Really, we should gather together things to help them "rebuild". How brave is that? Building a frail structure smack on the sand. I think is it wonderful and amazing. A feeling I get when there...don't know, just involved with the land, the locals, the water. We don't want to be rational and talk about rebar and building codes. I hope they rebuild it exactly the same as it was. Mulegemichael and I are in love with our community, the wonderful people we have met and adore, the river, everything. By the way, our house is still standing. We are lucky, the lucky ones. Blowing down there with a generator, pressure washer, wet vac, blablabla. Devoted to loaning out these things to help our neighbors. Come on. Stop the peeing match. We ALL love being there. We ALL love our beautiful location and our friends. Remember peeps, the locals are losing everything. Bring down what you can. We are in their country. Contribute.

DENNIS - 9-6-2009 at 05:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
you "mud people"



Just had to say it, didn't you. I hope it was in the right spirit of the event.

Trailer!!!!!

jerryjust - 9-6-2009 at 05:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mulegemichael
i second tony, bob...thanks for thinking of us and the mulege community

Great post I have already went to look at two Travel Trailers to do just that. We just purchased our casita in the orchard on the river and finished rebuilding it from the last one.Stayed in it two weeks and left Aug 6th. Will not build again,just park my trailer and enjoy.We lost everything. But will still return.Sorry for the people that are from there.



Jerryjust

mulegemichael - 9-6-2009 at 05:57 PM

it was

Beachgirl - 9-6-2009 at 05:58 PM

OK, one more thing. Insurance? We know people who have spent a year...more?...trying to get their insurance to pay for Julio problems. We decided we don't want to essentially be in an insurance hassle/lawsuit for year. Buy low-end furniture. Get reliable helpers. Move your boats to higher ground. Then just replace your stuff next time. We do NOT want to wake up or go to sleep thinking about some jerk at an insurance company not calling us back or paying off. It isn't worth the stress. Why are we down there? The lovely people we meet, the beautiful land, the stunning water and fishing...our community. Insurance? Come on kids. Forget it. Love your lives and your families, the people in our communities, the spirit of togetherness, or your solitude...whatever you "get" from your experience. Don't expect Baja to be like the States. God forbid we change it to evolve into that! Stay focused. Get your butts down there with things to help....like they say on an airplane. Secure yourself, then your kids. So clean up your stuff, help your community. Stop bickering or feeling sorry for yourselves. Aren't we all down there for the biggest adventure of our lives? There is risk. Stop being puss..... and start being strong. OK, I guess I might have alienated a few peeps, but I mean it. Get strong and stay strong. Stop the friggin' whining and get with it. Meet me at Junga's when it reopens! I will buy you a beer and toast to life itself...and you.

mulegemichael - 9-6-2009 at 05:58 PM

jerryjust slipped in between us there, dennis....it was...and still is

mulegemichael - 9-6-2009 at 06:01 PM

looks like my bride slipped in there too...she is soooo slippery...and i don't mean that in the biblical sense...or do i?...

Cypress - 9-6-2009 at 06:03 PM

toneart, I've been thru way more hurricanes than you have, never cried for pity or sympathy from anyone. When you live in hurricane country it's just one of those things. The govt. had signs on both sides of the Rio after John advising people not to build along the Rio. Yea, if telling it like it is places me in your POS catagory, you can put me at the head of your list. You probably have a long list.

mulegemichael - 9-6-2009 at 06:04 PM

oh gosh, you guys

DENNIS - 9-6-2009 at 06:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mulegemichael
jerryjust slipped in between us there, dennis....it was...and still is



If "mud people" is your reference, I was talking about the Palmeto99 use of the word.

OK...I'm not paying attention.

mulegemichael - 9-6-2009 at 06:05 PM

i was...or it was...or both...

Sharksbaja - 9-6-2009 at 06:31 PM

Hey Cypuss, you made my list too.

Beachgirl, were a bunch of wimps alright.

STOP WHINING YOU (house) LOSERS!

Yea Tony we're freakin' blessed didncha know?

(edit to add Arrowhead the genius to my fav list)



[Edited on 9-7-2009 by Sharksbaja]

DENNIS - 9-6-2009 at 06:34 PM

I think this whole board need a time out. Friends are starting to bark at friends.

Bob and Susan - 9-6-2009 at 06:36 PM

my email to corky read...

"you are blessed...
at least you aren't sleeping in the muk"

it ment...
at least he is safe and alive and dry

i'm sorry corky if you misunderstood this

Cypress - 9-6-2009 at 06:39 PM

Sharksbaja, Well shucks.

Sharksbaja - 9-6-2009 at 06:43 PM

Well at least you are sorry about something.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

DENNIS - 9-6-2009 at 06:58 PM

Well...that's a start.

Thanks, guys.



Jeeezo....I'm starting to sound like DK. :lol:

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by DENNIS]

mulegemichael - 9-6-2009 at 07:46 PM

are we just tired???...my shoulders feel a little tight..

DENNIS - 9-6-2009 at 08:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mulegemichael
are we just tired???...my shoulders feel a little tight..


I think everybody involved in any way has to be tired.
G'nite all.

SharonT - 9-6-2009 at 08:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
If you're living in a big arroyo(a drainage area) and the rains come, you're gonna get wet. Geez! This is the second time in 5 yrs. that Mulege has been flooded.


Actually, it was the third time in four years. I think a pattern is developing.


For those that were asking, unlike the U.S., Mexican insurance does include flood coverage. We are insured and were able to collect monies after both John and Julio. We will try to collect after Jemina also, but honestly don't expect to be insured again. While we have a permanent structure in Mulege (not a trailer or palapa) it was built to withstand this type of disaster. We will go in and muck out and try to help rebuild the Oasis community again. It is more about the people than the structures. We will bring down our garage sale couches and chairs and start over and will feel blessed to do so, insurance or not. We are just lucky this is our second home and didn't lose everything like many in the community at large.

mulegemichael - 9-6-2009 at 08:54 PM

Alright Sharon!....we're on the same page...not sure where you are located in the oasis but we're in #54, and like you, we still have a house standing...down this week to muck up

Mulegena - 9-6-2009 at 09:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by arrowhead
you "mud people"



Just had to say it, didn't you. I hope it was in the right spirit of the event.


I dunno, just yesterday I smacked a guy with my purse when he laughingly made that old joke about how I need to build my house so it floats. Now mind you, I didn't smack him hard and the joke was funny to him (and it is a little bit, but I've heard it a thousand times since H. John) and he was smiling when he said it, and I was smiling when I smacked him, and.... well, you get the picture....

ecomujeres - 9-6-2009 at 11:44 PM

Original Post Topic: Jimena photo links - consolidated



I'm tired of wading through the Jimena topic to find and refind links to photos and other material.

So, I've added a few pages to my own website. On one page, you can find links to all the photo galleries and albums available so far.

http://www.lasecomujeres.org/Jimena_links.html


This is also a place where I'll be posting links and current info for donations once that gets up and running.

Another page has a summary of the Hurricane and it's aftermath, so if you want to let others who know nothing know about the storm, this is a good place to go.

http://www.lasecomujeres.org/jimena_aftermath.html


Please let me know of any links for donations or photos that I can add to the page.

Thanks!

Debra

www.lasecomujeres.org
(Bilingual environmental education about Baja California)

BajaKeela - 9-7-2009 at 12:21 AM

ecomujeres...Thank-you ..This will be invaluable to many of us..Wish I would have had the smarts to do so myself.

Some thoughts after the storm

Sharksbaja - 9-7-2009 at 04:08 AM

Unlike H.John we are not seeing important items like mosquito spray and netting and tarps and twine being manifested.
There's gotta be some Nomads with those connects here. Look at Walmarts, REI, Home Depot etc. etc.

GET WITH IT PEOPLE!!! MULEGE NEEDS YOUR HELP ASAP!!

Cmon you guys, get off the stick and ask the BIG BOSS or MANAGER if they could donate useful items.;

Hey, it couldn't hurt to try! Sorry about the lack of press coverage. As usual, the hurricane(regardless of strength) loses any sigificance if it misses Cabo.

Contact Dennis if you have anything that needs material transmission. He has assumed a great function and I thank him too.








Bob, I thought long and hard(which was hard) and methinks I owe you some space. Perhaps what we think is not what is reality.

You are correct in the context that we are safe and healthy. My bad for taking it another way.

You know what our material losses are there, but it's certainly a whole lot more than that. We love Mulege. We'll camp there, spend money there, explore there, basically just have fun there. We love the people and atmosphere. It's an adventurers' paradise.

It's a problem for sure investing and building on or near bodies of water these days. I mean, cmon two hundred year bstorms in 3 years? WTF?


Let us get back to the useful and appropriate use of this magnificent place. I dunno but we have to go back and enjoy.:yes:

I have been so amazed and proud at the way Mulege and it's people can somehow overcome hardship & restore the town over and over. I love these people and their tenacity.

They are the salt of the earth. Let us learn volumes from them. Watch what they do, Mulege will live, prosper, it's a special place.

The moist fertile valley and rio beckons all who come to the oasis by the sea. Feel the warmth and friendship.

Bob,
That's all we really wanted to do in the first place. I'm so sorry it became so much more.

Paz, Corky
Quote:
Originally posted by Bob and Susan
my email to corky read...

"you are blessed...
at least you aren't sleeping in the muk"

it ment...
at least he is safe and alive and dry

i'm sorry corky if you misunderstood this


[Edited on 9-7-2009 by Sharksbaja]

SharonT - 9-7-2009 at 07:05 AM

MulegeMike,
Tussy's casa is M-3/Oasis, which I believe is just across the road from you. BOB and Hank and EngineerMike will be leaving US on Thursday, expected arrival in Mulege Friday or Saturday with RV trailer in tow. We will bring as much relief supplies as possible. Talked with Rafa Custa yesterday and he concurrs about the collapse of the Mulege economy. Locals are very scared and fearful. Most are still in serious shock. Rafa buried his dad on Wednesday morning. Rafa cut his finger pretty badly, but said at his age, he no longer uses it anyway. Many families are homeless, but most are living with other families. Rafa hopes many Americans will hire locals, like in HJohn to clean up and help stimulate the local economy in the process. Mulegeians are a strong resilant people and the commuunity will rebuild and survive. It will just take a little longer this time.

Mika - 9-7-2009 at 07:51 AM

Hi,

Anyone know how Loreto is now? Some of my friends are now in GN, and they are wondering if they should hurry through Loreto as well and drive all the way to La Paz.

Pebbles - 9-7-2009 at 08:36 AM

Loreto did not receive a lot of damage. Mostly just trees, signs, roof tiles etc. Biggest issue of course was electricity and water being out until Sunday. Storm was north of Loreto but seemed like it blew forever because it was turing and going up coast. Friends have driven to Constitucion for fresh vegetables and roads were open. Lots of damage there however.

k-rico - 9-7-2009 at 09:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob H
I was thinking that rebuilding along the Mulege river will never be allowed again.... only at higher elevations .... maybe a road, but no dwellings... comments?
Bob H


For the sake of discussion, why would the government prohibit rebuilding? That would decrease the incentive to clean-up and eliminate the jobs and inflow of cash that rebuilding would bring. It would also have long term negative economic effects in that fewer people with reliable income would be living there, supporting the local businesses.

In this particular case, if someone wants to take the risk, they should be allowed. High risk, yes, but the reward can be high. Rio Mulege, or whatever the river is named, is a unique place and I certainly understand why people want to live there.

austriaco - 9-7-2009 at 09:27 AM

Being here in Vienna/Austria, I wondered what I could do to help the Mulegenos. So I contacted the Austrian Red Cross. They told me that they are aware of the situation and monitor it closely.
They do not see a necessity to make an announcement for help or to set up a special account, as long as the Mexican Red Cross has not made an international appeal for help. They will inform me if this situation changes.

Donations for Mulege

EngineerMike - 9-7-2009 at 10:20 AM

Austriaco- that "international appeal" nonsense is a fine bureaucratic thumb sucking excuse, also known as fiddling while Rome burns. Large NGO's are like that much of the time, sad to say. If the disaster is not fund-raising type of visible, it is frequently ignored. And Mulege's biggest problem now & throughout its history is its relative remoteness. Vast majority of travelers to points south in Baja fly right over Mulege and don't even know where it is or even that it exists. Of those who drive, the vast majority drive right on by. This is a small, and economically isolated pueblo of a few thousand people, who are desperate for help.

Just as one example, I spoke to a local by cell phone this a.m.- his father-in-law (late stage diabetic) is incontinent among many complications of his condition, and they lost everything. We will be taking adult diapers, food, clothing, bedding, temp repair items for the house, etc. for this family and lots more. These are needs that the govt will never reach. Govt may send one mattress per family up to the point the mattress shipment is expended (i.e. regardless of actual needs assessment), and some stoves (again based on some arbitrary number of stoves the govt agency has budge for, not according to a well managed needs assessment). Because of the wind, there may be a truck of roofing, same ratio to needs as mattresses & stoves- arbitrary & per budgets which will be insufficient.

If you believe there is need in excess of what is being delivered, (and that judgement is yours and yours alone when you decide to donate here or anywhere), you can donate HERE or

Mulege Student Scholarship Program is accepting donations for direct relief (you can search previous posts on this thread) via paypal at Mike@Fleming.cc or via check in regular or express mail at MSSP, 1284 Vintage Way, Auburn, CA 95603, USA, or

you can stay tuned here on Baja Nomad as I believe there are Rotary Clubs in northern California getting together to raise funds especially for this, and there may be other avenues about to surface as well.
Thanks for your interest. That Baja Nomad reaches Austria is rather amazing. Our world is shrinking in an important sense.

DENNIS - 9-7-2009 at 10:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by k-rico


In this particular case, if someone wants to take the risk, they should be allowed.



If people want to build on a flood plane over an over, suffering the losses put upon them by Hurricanes over and over, appealing to disaster relief efforts over and over, it is evident that someone has to do their thinking for them. Their decission to endanger themselves and ther property over and over is not sound.

vandenberg - 9-7-2009 at 10:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS[/i


If people want to build on a flood plane over an over, suffering the losses put upon them by Hurricanes over and over, appealing to disaster relief efforts over and over, it is evident that someone has to do their thinking for them. Their decission to endanger themselves and ther property over and over is not sound.


Biloxi, Hilton Head, the Barrier islands, Grand Rapids, New Orleans, Padre islands around Galveston, most of the Mississippi, etc. Not just a Mulege trait apparently.

And I forgot the Sacramento Delta. Seen several major floods with major damage during my years in Sacramento

[Edited on 9-7-2009 by vandenberg]

DENNIS - 9-7-2009 at 10:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by vandenberg
Biloxi, Hilton Head, the Barrier islands, Grand Rapids, New Orleans, Padre islands around Galveston, most of the Mississippi, etc. Not just a Mulege trait apparently.



I guess not. Makes you wonder.

EngineerMike - 9-7-2009 at 10:55 AM

Dennis- you may have a point in such cases as the indigenous population has other options for housing. Not sure how to apply that in the arroyo that is Mulege.

As to the tourist population, if anything you said about is true about them, they should be ostracized. If tourist/river-dwellers are lining up to further tax local relief efforts, shame on them.
HOWEVER, to the extent the tourist population chooses to brave the risks, take the hits, pay hotel bills to brave the storm, then dig in to be part of the relief effort for affected locals (which by far and away in my experience is the majority), and plow big sweaty wads of money into the local economy to rebuild, buy food in the restaurants & stores, donate flood soaked stuff to their temporary employees, and stick it out for another year of supporting the local economy, then I'm not sure what there is to gripe about. Sounds like the government should declare a tax-free-zone for tourists along the river to encourage such risk taking, and concomitant support for a hugely disadvantaged local population.
Just my $.02

BTW, just got a solid report on my place- ceiling is on the floor, laundry room is rubble. Please don't bother doing my thinking for me. I'm going to bebuild, and the local economy will be better for it, I'm certain.

Also BTW, there has never been a more important time in Mulege to get kids the resources they need to pursue a college education, get a good paying job (which they won't find in Mulege) and get a system of intra-familia transfers in place that will help support those family members who remain as well as the future kids of those current students. For those whose inclination to help trends toward education, please feel free to email me at mike@fleming.cc for info on how you can help.

Skeet/Loreto - 9-7-2009 at 10:58 AM

Dennis:

Would you please take your "Blaming Words to another Forum"!!

You are showing a terrible lack of decency and Sense;

It is "None of your Business where anyone wants to build their Home!!!


For Once in your your Life"Keep ypour Mouth Shut about People during their Tradgey''

"Not yours"

Skeet
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