BajaNomad - Arizonas new Imigration Bill(This has turned into a Rat Hole)

Arizonas new Imigration Bill(This has turned into a Rat Hole)

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dtbushpilot - 5-26-2010 at 04:26 PM

A friend of mine works for Honeywell on this project. They are marketing them to the homeland security folks as well as the military. It occurred to me that this would be a great addition to my fishing boat, could save a lot of running around looking for fish....dt

http://www.missionready.com/thawkmav/

Mexicorn - 5-27-2010 at 02:35 PM

WHAT DO YOU MEAN WE ARE FINALLY DONE WITH THIS THREAD?

THANK YOU VERY MUCH!
EL MEXICORN

How ODD the Criticism ?

MrBillM - 5-27-2010 at 03:43 PM

ODD seems to think the ODD criticism of the Hadji Hussein Pandering is unjustified.

OK, let's hear some critical POSITIVE support for this latest decision. So far, although tempered because he's their Boy, the Liberals are grumbling that it's nothing more than an attempt to placate popular opinion. There's really nothing else that can be said. It is 20 percent of the same thing that Bush did which the Chicago Kid and his cronies derided.

But, we'll be waiting to hear from the ODD one why it's a good idea.

Anytime.

Bajahowodd - 5-27-2010 at 04:00 PM

An Apparent Difference of Opinion

From LA Times 5/27

Justice Department poised to challenge Arizona immigration law
Nine police chiefs meet with Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr. to tell him the measure would hinder local law enforcement and ask that the Obama administration block it.

By Richard A. Serrano and Kate Linthicum, Tribune Washington Bureau and Los Angeles Times

May 26, 2010 | 5:44 p.m.

Reporting from Washington and Los Angeles
Top Justice Department officials have drafted a legal challenge asserting that Arizona's controversial immigration law is unconstitutional because it impinges on the federal government's authority to police the nation's borders, sources said Wednesday.

At the same time, the government officials said, the department's civil rights section is considering possible legal action against the law on the basis that it amounts to racial profiling of Latinos who are legally in Arizona but conceivably could be asked to provide documents proving their citizenship.

U.S. Atty. Gen. Eric H. Holder Jr. met Wednesday with nine top police chiefs who object to the Arizona legislation and promised them he would act on the recommendations soon, a spokesman said.

The police chiefs urged Holder and the Obama administration, which has grave reservations about the Arizona measure, to stop the law. The chiefs said it would seriously hamper local police work if officers had to serve as border patrol policemen.

FOR THE RECORD:
An earlier version of this report said that Jack Harris, Phoenix police chief, attended the meeting. He was not able to attend.
"He did say that the Justice Department is seriously considering what they would do and that could come very soon," said Chuck Wexler, the director of the Police Executive Research Forum, a think tank that helped bring the police chiefs together with Holder.

Echoing concerns from Obama and Holder, the chiefs told the attorney general during the closed-door meeting that the problem with the Arizona law is that it will break down trust between victims and witnesses of crimes and the police officers in their communities.

One of the attendees was Los Angeles Police Chief Charlie Beck, who said afterward that he told Holder that "legislation like this inhibits us from doing our jobs" and would deter immigrants from reporting crimes, either as victims or witnesses.

"The fear of the police already inhibits immigrants from coming forward to a certain extent," Beck said. "But if you add this, you increase the reluctance tenfold.

"People should remember that undocumented immigrants are witnesses in all kinds of crime, and this does not just affect them. If people don't come forward to help the police solve and protect against crime, no matter what their status, then we are doomed to failure. It threatens to destroy a lot of the work that has been done."

Beck added that his officers are guided by a different set of rules than those laid out in the Arizona law. For more than three decades, he said, the agency has followed a policy that prohibits officers from initiating contact with someone solely to determine whether he or she is in the country legally.

But an additional dozen or more states are considering passing legislation mirroring the Arizona law, which is to go into effect in July. That groundswell of support for the Arizona law is part of what is pushing Holder and the White House to act swiftly if they decide they want to strike down the measure in Arizona.

The new Arizona law requires police to determine the immigration status of anyone they stop and suspect is in the country illegally. It also makes it a state crime to lack proper immigration papers in Arizona.

Matthew Miller, the Department of Justice's chief spokesman, acknowledged that Holder had told the police chiefs that a decision on federal action would come quickly.

But Miller also cautioned that "the review is still on."

"There's really not been any decisions yet," he said. "We're still working on it, and it's still being discussed internally."

He declined to discuss what legal strategy the department would pursue. Nevertheless, Miller said that the meeting with the police chiefs was very helpful.

"The attorney general thought the police chiefs raised important concerns about the impact the Arizona law will have on the ability of law enforcement to keep communities safe," he said.

Two of the chiefs meeting with Holder are from Arizona: Roberto Villasenor of Tucson and John W. Harris of Sahuarita, who also serves as president of the Arizona Assn. of Chiefs of Police.

"The attorney general asked us very specific, good questions about our experiences — all the things we've heard — to get a good reading on the ground," Wexler said. "Beyond that he did not give us any indication of what the Justice Department is going to do.

"We were not trying to influence the attorney general as much as to have a conversation with him about our concerns and also get the [Obama administration] focused on the need for national legislation."

"The U.S. attorney general listened to us — we had a great conversation — but he was not committal," the Los Angeles chief said. "His task is to announce his plans to the American people, not necessarily to this group. I think that we influenced him, but we will see."

Despite the opposition to the law from Obama and Holder, many Americans support it; some polls indicate that as many as 70% are in favor of giving local police the authority to check on someone's legal status in the United States.

Likewise, not all top U.S. police officials are against the law. Even in Arizona, some wholeheartedly support it. They include Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio in the Phoenix area, who has long railed against the influx of illegal immigrants there, and Pinal County Sheriff Paul Babeu, head of the Arizona Sheriff's Assn.

richard.serrano@latimes.com

kate.linthicum@latimes.com

Lotsa Words in that Copy and Paste, BUT ..........

MrBillM - 5-27-2010 at 04:19 PM

None of it addressing the merits of the Magic 1200.

Packoderm - 5-27-2010 at 05:10 PM

So, they're worried that illegal immigrants will be so scared of being caught for breaking the law that they will hesitate to supply witness against somebody else who is also breaking the law?

Sure, That's the Argument

MrBillM - 5-28-2010 at 09:40 AM

Or, at least, one. For the Moment.

Until it changes.

tripledigitken - 5-28-2010 at 09:49 AM

Why would any Nomad familar with the society in Mexico think that illegals in the USA would come forward to the police in AZ? They don't in their own country for God's sake.

Bajahowodd - 5-28-2010 at 01:06 PM

I think there are two factors. In reality, in areas with heavy concentrations of illegals, such as Los Angeles, there really has been little fear of cooperating with local law enforcement inasmuch as there has been a long-standing operational directive advising officers to literally avoid the documentation issue. This is well known in the community. Second, there are literally tens of thousands of mixed families in the US. By mixed, I mean that one or more in the family has legal status, or may be a citizen, while others may not be. So, the AZ law would have a chilling effect on those who may be legal, but will fail to report a crime or cooperate in an investigation in fear that the authorities may uncover the illegal status of others in the household.

Cypress - 5-28-2010 at 01:53 PM

If you're a harboring criminals it's not wise to report criminal activity. :light:

wessongroup - 5-28-2010 at 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
None of it addressing the merits of the Magic 1200.

thanks I like it short and sweet ..... and on target too

Illegal Cooperation ?

MrBillM - 5-28-2010 at 03:26 PM

SO, are we to use the "amazing" success that Los Angeles has seen in combating crime in Hispanic areas as evidence that THEIR methodology is a better answer ?

I've heard it has become SO SAFE in those areas of Los Angeles that you're more likely to be Mugged, Raped, Robbed or Killed in Brentwood.

Well, actually, I made that up.

BUT, I'm sure that L.A. is a REALLY Safe Place.

Bajahowodd - 5-28-2010 at 03:27 PM

And so? I don't recall that the topic of this thread was about the 1200. It has rambled all over the place. So, all Mr. Bile has done is make a dismissive comment without weighing in on the article I posted.

Weighing in on the Paste Job ?

MrBillM - 5-28-2010 at 03:41 PM

So that HowOdd may feel validated by my acknowledgment of his Copy-Paste, I'll Weigh Way In with a concise comment.

So What ?

It doesn't cover any new ground.

Feel better now ?

wessongroup - 5-28-2010 at 03:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
SO, are we to use the "amazing" success that Los Angeles has seen in combating crime in Hispanic areas as evidence that THEIR methodology is a better answer ?

I've heard it has become SO SAFE in those areas of Los Angeles that you're more likely to be Mugged, Raped, Robbed or Killed in Brentwood.

Well, actually, I made that up.

BUT, I'm sure that L.A. is a REALLY Safe Place.

Sure is, just a few years back some guy and his family made a wrong turn off the freeway and he ended up being killed by a group of "southsiders".. who's territory this poor fool wandered into... a one way street.... his small child was killed as was he.. his wife and other child escaped...

I have a few I could add in, but think the point is well made... that there are so places every bit as dangerous as any in Mexico... if you don't think so, drive your white ass into these areas about 8-9 pm... and see what happens.. if nothing while driving, get out a take a WALK!!! :lol:

What's Your Problem?

Bajahowodd - 5-28-2010 at 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
So that HowOdd may feel validated by my acknowledgment of his Copy-Paste, I'll Weigh Way In with a concise comment.

So What ?

It doesn't cover any new ground.

Feel better now ?

With the "paste job"? Don't know how how to do it?

Cypress - 5-28-2010 at 04:50 PM

wessongroup, A sad story.

How ODD does It ?

MrBillM - 5-29-2010 at 09:28 AM

MY only objection to "Long-Winded" Copy and Paste jobs is that they're just another example of laziness.

Lazy minds do it rather than spend the time using their own words, "quotes" and summaries in a more concise presentation.

Gov. Brewer: most illegal immigrants are 'drug mules'

mtgoat666 - 6-25-2010 at 09:23 PM

The woman is nuts:

"Well, we all know that the majority of the people that are coming to Arizona and trespassing are now becoming drug mules," Brewer said. "They're coming across our borders in huge numbers. The drug cartels have taken control of the immigration.

"So they are criminals. They're breaking the law when they are trespassing and they're criminals when they pack the marijuana and the drugs on their backs."

When pressed, Brewer explained that many are simply coming to the United States to look for work but "are accosted, and they become subjects of the drug cartels."

"The simple truth is that the majority of human smuggling in our state is under the direction of the drug cartels, which are by definition smuggling drugs," Brewer's statement said, according to the Associated Press as reported in the Arizona Republic. "It is common knowledge that Mexican drug cartels have merged human smuggling with drug trafficking."

Mexicorn - 6-25-2010 at 09:50 PM

Wow! I never thought I'd agree with one of those people inside that head! But I do- you go Goat- Giddy Up!!
Whats wrong is wrong-
Nice day in Primo Tapia hows thing your way?

Bajafun777 - 6-26-2010 at 01:10 AM

OK, I have seen enough about California being upset to the point of not wanting anything to do with Arizona, California has the same laws folks. Check out Penal Code Sections 113, 114, 115 and of course the law enforcement involvement with 834b of the California Penal Code. All clearly makes it a crime for anyone to use a false document of any kind for employment, makes it crime for anyone who assists anyone here illegally, requires YES requires law enforcement to cooperate with ICE. Now, the California Supreme Court found Prop. 187 unconstitutional thus it also said that 834b of the Penal Code was preempted by Federal law as the sole enforcement of immigration law violations rested with the Federal Government. However, Federal law 8 USC 1644 & 1373 gave law enforcement the right and ability to do as they are doing in Arizona share information and assist in arresting those violating federal law such as illegal immigration which is a misdemeanor. Local law enforcement officers must see a misdemeanor being committed to arrest here in California but with the federal law they can assist with linking with ICE to have the person found to be here illegally arrested and deported by ICE.
So, all crybabies in California need to shut the hell up and if it is illegal then don't do it or face not liking being arrested and deported back to where you came from. As written here, Mexico's laws are tougher on immigration than ours, so Mexico needs to shut the hell up too. Enough already, just everybody follow the law and if you do not like getting booted out for breaking the laws here or in Mexico, then do not break them.
Now,this issue is settled and over already. I told myself I would not enter this topic again but its ongoing nature just made me do it, so if anyone does not like what I wrote tough it's the law. Now, that's my story and I am sticking to it!!! LOL OK, Doug end the topic before they make an amendment to the Constitution to allow those not born in the United States to run for President as Arnold is out of job in January 2011.

Cypress - 6-26-2010 at 04:15 AM

California giving advice to other states is sorta like "Typhoid Mary" giving advice on hygiene.

Marc - 6-27-2010 at 05:47 AM

I was gassing up in Yacora, Sonora near the Chihuahua border in October '09. Pulling out I was stopped by a guy in an unmarked Jeep. He was not in uniform but did have some sort of badge. He checked ALL of my papers; Passport, visa, registration, insurance, vehicle permit, drivers license. I did not point out that in Sonora I do not need a car permit, but I was obviously returning from Chihuahua. Well it's his country, and as he stated to me, he's just doing his job. I was not breaking any law when stopped so I guess I was "profiled"! So what?

wessongroup - 6-27-2010 at 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
MY only objection to "Long-Winded" Copy and Paste jobs is that they're just another example of laziness.

Lazy minds do it rather than spend the time using their own words, "quotes" and summaries in a more concise presentation.

I some cases, one would rather "read" the words as written by the "source" rather than a "take" by one who suppling the "take"..

In that fashion, there is no mistake about what was actually said..

Some find it hard to support their "take" with factual documentation .... I for one do not..

Blah, Blah, Blah... is usually what starts a real fight... and does not really help in a "discussion" or an "argument" ...

Will grant its not as much fun... but, who said it would be fun

[Edited on 6-27-2010 by wessongroup]

Cypress - 6-27-2010 at 11:17 AM

Arizona has been forced to take action because the feds have failed to do their job. Plain and simple. :yes:

k-rico - 6-27-2010 at 12:14 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/25/opinion/25fri4.html

Mayor Michael Bloomberg, making good on an inaugural pledge, has stepped up to help lead the national battle for immigration reform. On Thursday, he announced a partnership of mayors and business leaders to make the economic case for reform, including mayors of Los Angeles, Philadelphia, San Antonio, Phoenix, and top executives of companies like Walt Disney, Hewlett-Packard, Boeing and the New York Mets.

Rupert Murdoch — chairman of the News Corporation, naturalized citizen and member of the coalition — stated its views succinctly: “This country can and must enact new immigration policies that fulfill our employment needs, provide a careful pathway to legal status for undocumented residents, and end illegal immigration.”

DENNIS - 6-27-2010 at 12:21 PM

There comes a time when "lip service" becomes really tedious.

wessongroup - 6-27-2010 at 12:22 PM

Naw... it's already be taken care of through "Sanctuary Cities"... quite a program they have going here... and it is completely against all Federal Laws on the issue.. and is stated as being not in compliance with Federal Laws ...

Take a look, you may find your own home town ... is a "Sanctuary City".. had no clue on this .. mine is ....

http://www.sanctuarycities.info/sanctuary_state_california.h...

Giving Sanctuary

MrBillM - 6-27-2010 at 02:04 PM

One of the cities in California that declared itself a "Sanctuary City" was my wife's childhood home of Maywood.

It was quite successful in that respect. It is estimated that 50 percent of Maywood's residents are Illegal Aliens. And, it must be true because the Los Angeles Socialist Peoples Daily World (L.A. Times) says so.

Of course, Maywood just went out of business because they're dead broke.

One "Amusing" aspect of the Death of Maywood was that the L.A. Times had described Maywood and Neighbor Cudahy as "Gritty" neighborhoods to which the Cudahy officials took exception and defended their "Fine" city.

NOW, that is a Laugh. Taking Exception, that is.

When I was a Youngster in the early 50s and mi Papa worked at one of the Rendering plants in Cudahy, calling the area "Gritty" would have been a compliment and nothing had changed since then.

Bajahowodd - 6-27-2010 at 04:46 PM

Does no one see a disconnect between Rupert Murdoch being actively involved in a media group lobbying for meaningful immigration reform, even as his Fox network clowns have spent several years in the forefront of fomenting the ugliness against immigrants?

Yep!

toneart - 6-27-2010 at 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Does no one see a disconnect between Rupert Murdoch being actively involved in a media group lobbying for meaningful immigration reform, even as his Fox network clowns have spent several years in the forefront of fomenting the ugliness against immigrants?

I raise my hand and my skepticism.

k-rico - 6-28-2010 at 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

Quote:

I raise my hand and my skepticism.

You mean compromising your beliefs, ideals to make a buck? Naw that never happens. Fox has found/made a huge market that subscribes to its point of view.

A part of immigration reform is to retain in the states the foreigners educated at American universities. The current process for obtaining the ability to work legally and permanently in the US is extremely onerous and old fashioned. I know, I helped my wife get a green card - stacks of paperwork, about two years in time, 1000s of dollars in lawyer fees, and an airplane trip to Juarez for one of the interviews at the US consulate there. Nice place................

Changing the forms to Internet based with automated input verfication and validation would be a HUGE positive step. A couple of years ago they all had to be typed and sent around in the mail.

And all of that as a spouse of an American citizen. Non-spouses have additional constraints to overcome. I signed papers saying I would be her means of support and re-imburse the government for any welfare money she may receive in the future.

I've read that it is estimated that half of all illegal immigrants got into the states legally and overstayed their visas, such as student visas, but probably mostly tourist visas, not by marching across the desert or by being stuffed into a truck of a car.

I'm guessing Murdoch is concerned about the archaic, difficult, and confusing process, since he too went through it, except for the Juarez interview since he's an Australian.

[Edited on 6-28-2010 by k-rico]

monoloco - 6-28-2010 at 08:17 AM

A worker trying to get a visa for menial labor will be retirement age before they are processed.

Bajahowodd - 6-28-2010 at 02:29 PM

k-rico:"You mean compromising your beliefs, ideals to make a buck? Naw that never happens. Fox has found/made a huge market that subscribes to its point of view."

Make a buck?? Fact is that the ONLY reason that international mogul and Australian Rupert Murdoch became an American citizen was so he could buy Fox and retain ownership of the television network and stations. US law prohibits foreigners from owning broadcast stations. He would have had to divest his holdings of the broadcast group, had he not become a citizen. Nothing as romantic or patriotic as loving America.

Arizona by the Numbers

MrBillM - 7-4-2010 at 01:42 PM

In March, Governor Jan Brewer trailed her Dem opponent by 9 points in the Rasmussen poll.

NOW, she leads in the same polling 53 - 35.

A 27 Point difference.

What Changed ?

OH, Yeah !

jimgrms - 7-4-2010 at 01:57 PM

american citizen are continuly being asked for a id when useing our debit or credit cards doing banking ect ; it is only a big deal if you are illegal

Cypress - 7-4-2010 at 02:15 PM

Hang tuff Arizona! Wish the rest of the US had the backbone/gonads to join you. :yes:

The Southern Invasion

MrBillM - 7-16-2010 at 09:28 AM

Hidden cameras placed on the Invasion routes in Arizona show a steady stream of Illegals, including Armed Drug-runners, and NO Fed agents.

One camera, over a 39-day period, shows 739 Illegals.

In a related story, it was noted that the ICE agents face difficulty in patrolling one section of the AZ border because it is the habitat of an endangered Deer and they are restricted from intruding upon the habitat of the creature. Additionally, FUGLY Janet says that we face "difficulties" in some areas because they are TRIBAL lands where the Federal government doesn't have full control.

It's just such a HARD job. I'm SO sorry for them.

DENNIS - 7-16-2010 at 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Additionally, FUGLY Janet says that we face "difficulties" in some areas because they are TRIBAL lands where the Federal government doesn't have full control.

The list would be far shorter if the government would tell us where they do have control. To stand there and blame their ineptitude on a tribe of over-weight Indians is ludicrous.

Control ?

MrBillM - 7-16-2010 at 09:40 AM

Just wondering, of course, but isn't their expressed "Supremacy" argument that ONLY They have FULL-CONTROL over the border and immigration ?

DENNIS - 7-16-2010 at 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Just wondering, of course, but isn't their expressed "Supremacy" argument that ONLY They have FULL-CONTROL over the border and immigration ?

Of course they do. They just have a pee-poor way of showing it.

oldlady - 7-16-2010 at 01:11 PM

:lol:

Hitting the Panic Button

MrBillM - 7-17-2010 at 12:52 PM

An article in today's L.A. (Communist) Times describes the record number of deaths in AZ's border desert areas as a (suspected) result of the record heat this July. Pima County has resorted to renting a Refrigerated trailer to store the bodies.

Accompanying the article is a photo of a radio-tower with an Illegal Alien Panic Button complete with instructions to summon Help.

wessongroup - 7-18-2010 at 08:49 AM

Has the "why" question been evaluated, why is there poor economic development in Mexico? Which leaves a large portion of the "people" with less than any real opportunity to "make a better life" for themselves?

Not excusing illegal entry into the United States.. all of my wife's family came across that way.. starting in 30's and 40's ... her grandfather "Santos" died in Watsonville still doing "field work" at the age of 74. We drove him up to Salinas in 1968 in our VW bus from Los Angeles, he had been not doing too good, he was 71 at the time... but, just hated living in Los Angeles... East L.A...

He had been born in Sonora on a family ranch.. which was lost after his father died in the Revelotion ... moved to Tijuana, as was able to get across and work in Agriculture for the rest of his life... he loved working in the fields and growing things..

But, that family came into the United States, cuz there was absolutely no chance for them in Tijuana or just about any other place in Mexico to really get ahead..

Brings up the WHY question..

Found a very interesting "paper" from Stanford University which places much of the blame on Mexico's Economic condition on one factor... Land Reform and the Political System which become "fixed" in place for over 70 years...

It does not excuse the illegal movement of folks from across the border into the United States.. but, it does help to make a bit of sense WHY the HUGE amount of folks do it...

http://weblamp.princeton.edu/rppe/events/piepmay2009/papers/...

If you have a little time, take the time to read it... found it quite insight full, as to why we see some of the things we do see, with regard to many of the issues discussed here: developments, poverty, land use, title issues and many others..

It all helps ......

Dave - 7-18-2010 at 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup
http://weblamp.princeton.edu/rppe/events/piepmay2009/papers/...

Very informative read.

Thanks.

mtgoat666 - 7-18-2010 at 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jimgrms
american citizen are continuly being asked for a id when useing our debit or credit cards doing banking ect ; it is only a big deal if you are illegal

don't be ridiculous.
people asking for credit at private businesses is discretionary and showing ID in such cases is part of biz transaction; and totally unrelated not same as gestapo stopping you for ID check on basis of racial profiling.

Barry A. - 7-18-2010 at 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by jimgrms
american citizen are continuly being asked for a id when useing our debit or credit cards doing banking ect ; it is only a big deal if you are illegal

Bolderdash!!!!! We need a bio-metric National ID card, period!!! and the first one should be issued to 'the Goat' so that we can keep track of him!!

Barry

DENNIS - 7-18-2010 at 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

don't be ridiculous.
people asking for credit at private businesses is discretionary and showing ID in such cases is part of biz transaction; and totally unrelated not same as gestapo stopping you for ID check on basis of racial profiling.

Total BS.......They don't detain gang members for profile reasons. They should, but they don't. If they did, there wouldn't be any left on the streets.
Why, all of a sudden, would they do this with gardners or construction workers or anybody else?
I think you give too much praise to the work ethic of police.

toneart - 7-18-2010 at 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup
Has the "why" question been evaluated, why is there poor economic development in Mexico? Which leaves a large portion of the "people" with less than any real opportunity to "make a better life" for themselves?

Not excusing illegal entry into the United States.. all of my wife's family came across that way.. starting in 30's and 40's ... her grandfather "Santos" died in Watsonville still doing "field work" at the age of 74. We drove him up to Salinas in 1968 in our VW bus from Los Angeles, he had been not doing too good, he was 71 at the time... but, just hated living in Los Angeles... East L.A...

He had been born in Sonora on a family ranch.. which was lost after his father died in the Revelotion ... moved to Tijuana, as was able to get across and work in Agriculture for the rest of his life... he loved working in the fields and growing things..

But, that family came into the United States, cuz there was absolutely no chance for them in Tijuana or just about any other place in Mexico to really get ahead..

Brings up the WHY question..

Found a very interesting "paper" from Stanford University which places much of the blame on Mexico's Economic condition on one factor... Land Reform and the Political System which become "fixed" in place for over 70 years...

It does not excuse the illegal movement of folks from across the border into the United States.. but, it does help to make a bit of sense WHY the HUGE amount of folks do it...

http://weblamp.princeton.edu/rppe/events/piepmay2009/papers/...

If you have a little time, take the time to read it... found it quite insight full, as to why we see some of the things we do see, with regard to many of the issues discussed here: developments, poverty, land use, title issues and many others..

It all helps ......

Thank you, WessonMan! Illegal is still illegal, but you give the people a face. They are human beings. It helps to understand their plight and motivations for crossing the border illegally. :light:

Barry A. - 7-18-2010 at 11:34 AM

I'm betting that 98+% of the folks on this Board "understand their plight", and symphathise with them. I "symphathise" with all kinds of people-----but you can't run a Country purely on symphathy! Any successful Country has rules and regulations to prevent chaos and unintended consequences, and they MUST be enforced in an orderly and fair manner if possible, but harshly if not possible. Reagan's immigration ideas, tho well intended, did not solve the problem-----it just incentivised more to come here illegally--------have we learned nothing??

I don't have all the answers for those illegals already here, but we as a Country HAVE to secure the border, and now!!!! and deal with the law breakers already here in as humane a manner as practical, but keeping in mind that they broke the law with their eyes wide open, no matter what there legit/or non-legit reasons, and NOBODY is above the law. (despite what some of you think)

SECURE THE BORDERS, NOW!!!!!! Our present policy is simply nuts!!!

Barry

Cypress - 7-18-2010 at 11:39 AM

Why have laws if they aren't enforced? :?:

wessongroup - 7-18-2010 at 12:13 PM

Not arguing about securing the border, and not arguing about it not being illegal... and running the Country of Mexico in the described historical fashion has led to their current plight, ... that was the bottom line of the "paper"

The paper was pointing out the WHY .....

As for sympathy don't think the Mexican people are really looking for that... rather opportunity to make a better life for themselves and their families.. be it in Mexico, or anywhere else.. much the same as my forefathers that came to the United States of America in 1657 as indentured servants from England

If you knew that the current situation of the Mexican people was a direct result of a Political system and Land Reform, which has been in place for all most 70 years and has resulted in the lack of Economic Growth for the Mexican people, .. well, can only say you are much better informed than most..

And perhaps you should have written the "paper" which was supplied...

As my intent was to merely show the other side of the fence... so to speak

My position on the entry into the United States illegally has not changed, it is illegal.. period..

And the idea of having some kind of reform without even enforcing current laws and regulations is ludicrous ... but then we have already seen a Health Bill passed and a Financial Bill being passed without anyone even knowing what is in them and if they will work.. .

Our current batch of "deep thinkers" are throwing it on the wall to see what sticks.. at our expense... much the same as the Mexican Government in their attempts to resolve decades of problems without resolve and which are also hurting their country Economic life also...

Living off tourist dollars in not a sustainable plan if one does not own their land.. and have the ability to use as an asset to obtain credit for obvious reasons ....

Barry A. - 7-18-2010 at 01:37 PM

I agree, Wesson.

Barry

DENNIS - 7-18-2010 at 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
perhaps soon mexico will have problem of illegals from US infiltrating their country to work in cabo.

Time Share anybody??

Bajahowodd - 7-18-2010 at 02:10 PM

goat does make a valid point. Historically, demographics drive much of what transpires. And when labor demand is far outstripping supply, people don't seem to care much about the legality issue. Every study I've read regarding US labor supply v. job demand projects that in just a very few years, the US will have a shortfall of workers in the tens of millions. Not going to weigh in on the moral/ legal issue here, but if we just think back a few years, when our economy was really humming, there was nowhere near the clamor over securing the borders. I think that the recession, job loss and the neat little homeland security excuse all have combined to make this issue absolutely frenetic.

oldlady - 7-18-2010 at 02:22 PM

If we look back a few(how many is that) there was nowhere near the death rates on both sides of the border either. What's our criteria going to be? Do we need 10 or 20 car bombs in El Paso six months or a year from now. Why is the status quo and related loss of life acceptable.

Please post the studies that indicate we are going to have a worker shortage in a very few years, because it is highly possible that the assumptions are wrong. We've got a big backlog of unemployed people and no politicians or economists predicting an nominal (as opposed to actual) unemployment rate in the 4% range in the next decade. Having a near term labor shortage issue would be a problem everyone would like to be scratching their heads over right now...I don't read that happening.

Bajahowodd - 7-18-2010 at 02:24 PM

I would really appreciate it if someone could enlighten me about the causes or reasons for this:

Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio appears to be the darling of those who are most vehemently anti- immigrant. How does one explain these stats, aside from concluding that Arpaio is an incompetent marooon?

Arizona Violent Crime since 2002

Statewide- -12%
Phoenix PD jurisdiction- -14%
Mesa PD jurisdiction- -14%
Scottsdale PD jurisdiction- -15%
Tempe PD jurisdiction- -26%
Maricopa County (Arpaio) jurisdiction- +58%

I See Your Point in the Immediate

Bajahowodd - 7-18-2010 at 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldlady
If we look back a few(how many is that) there was nowhere near the death rates on both sides of the border either. What's our criteria going to be? Do we need 10 or 20 car bombs in El Paso six months or a year from now. Why is the status quo and related loss of life acceptable.

Please post the studies that indicate we are going to have a worker shortage in a very few years, because it is highly possible that the assumptions are wrong. We've got a big backlog of unemployed people and no politicians or economists predicting an nominal (as opposed to actual) unemployment rate in the 4% range in the next decade. Having a near term labor shortage issue would be a problem everyone would like to be scratching their heads over right now...I don't read that happening.

I will grant that the attached paper was written in 2004, pre-recession. My feeling is that unless someone is a total doomsayer, the forces at work will still be there. Maybe perhaps with a delay or adjustment. But one cannot ignore the simple fact that we have an ever decreasing number of people reaching the age where they will enter the workforce.

http://gbr.pepperdine.edu/042/laborshortage.html

DENNIS - 7-18-2010 at 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I would really appreciate it if someone could enlighten me about the causes or reasons for this:

Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio appears to be the darling of those who are most vehemently anti- immigrant. How does one explain these stats, aside from concluding that Arpaio is an incompetent marooon?

Arizona Violent Crime since 2002

Statewide- -12%
Phoenix PD jurisdiction- -14%
Mesa PD jurisdiction- -14%
Scottsdale PD jurisdiction- -15%
Tempe PD jurisdiction- -26%
Maricopa County (Arpaio) jurisdiction- +58%

Where did you get the stats? I'm not challenging them....just want to know who compiled them.

wessongroup - 7-19-2010 at 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
goat does make a valid point. Historically, demographics drive much of what transpires. And when labor demand is far outstripping supply, people don't seem to care much about the legality issue. Every study I've read regarding US labor supply v. job demand projects that in just a very few years, the US will have a shortfall of workers in the tens of millions. Not going to weigh in on the moral/ legal issue here, but if we just think back a few years, when our economy was really humming, there was nowhere near the clamor over securing the borders. I think that the recession, job loss and the neat little homeland security excuse all have combined to make this issue absolutely frenetic.

Perhaps those thoughts and numbers were developed by the same folks that gave us the "Looting" of the United States of America.. which we have just witnessed .. to the tune of 50-60 Trillion dollars.. and is that something driven by demographics.. think not.. rather plain and simple unbridled greed... from both sides of the isle.. think not.... :lol:

The last numbers we were seeing, 11 million homes to be lost to foreclosure ... that would imply those folks do not have any work (jobs) therefore they can't pay the mortgages.. which must also be past Pluto !!.. and lets not forget the Commercial Real Estate which is coming up on 5-10 year renewals.. now that should prove fun.. as a lot of "unique" financial deals are structured on "values" of cost per square foot... which are going to be pretty hard to support this go around...

And what we have been seeing is that there is no work, here in the United States.. and no real expectations of new jobs to be created, oh, thats right "batteries" and making cars.. so we can drive around using electricity generated by the sun, but, not really going anywhere...

Well that's not so bad... as that appears to be what we have been doing for quite a while...

I Know

Bajahowodd - 7-19-2010 at 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
02

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
I would really appreciate it if someone could enlighten me about the causes or reasons for this:

Maricopa County Sheriff Joe Arpaio appears to be the darling of those who are most vehemently anti- immigrant. How does one explain these stats, aside from concluding that Arpaio is an incompetent marooon?

Arizona Violent Crime since 20

Statewide- -12%
Phoenix PD jurisdiction- -14%
Mesa PD jurisdiction- -14%
Scottsdale PD jurisdiction- -15%
Tempe PD jurisdiction- -26%
Maricopa County (Arpaio) jurisdiction- +58%

Where did you get the stats? I'm not challenging them....just want to know who compiled them.

I know they seem baked to the casual observer. They came from the Arizona Department of Public Safety.

What first went through my mind was that either all the bad guys choose to reside only in the unincorporated areas of Metro- Phoenix, or by Joe's own style of running things, it actually creates civic and social problems.

wessongroup - 7-19-2010 at 06:44 PM

If Arpaio is enforcing immigation calls for the entire County, as one is supposed to, believe they have much the same on the books California Law .. which is also not actively enforced (it been up a number of times) ... perhaps this would be the reason for the skewed numbers.. Tempe.. could be College and associated issues with same..

Barry A. - 7-19-2010 at 07:51 PM

I just like Joe A's. style, his frankness, and find him VERY refreshing in this Oh-so-correct society we now live in. It is attitudes like his that would make ME not break the law, and like it in the process. I hope the stats are not what they appear to be--------if they are then I REALLY don't understand society today, and THAT is unsettleing, for sure!!!!

You GO, Joe!!!!

Barry

gnukid - 7-19-2010 at 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
I just like Joe A's. style, his frankness, and find him VERY refreshing in this Oh-so-correct society we now live in. It is attitudes like his that would make ME not break the law, and like it in the process. I hope the stats are not what they appear to be--------if they are then I REALLY don't understand society today, and THAT is unsettleing, for sure!!!!

You GO, Joe!!!!

Barry

Yeah right on Barry it's cool to support the female chain gang's and hot tent prisons of non-violent people as a method to the madness. Now in your book, or let's just say in your mind, if you could, would you expand Arizona prison system punish people more harshly?

wessongroup - 7-19-2010 at 08:03 PM

Don't know the man.. but, if he speaks his mind, what ever it is.. without all that "transparency" crap... he's ok in my book... and I believe his position is one you are elected too..

So what is the big woof.. he is doing the job he was hired to do... and I too.. prefer to just be told what the hell is going on in simple english, if that is not too much to ask

Just looked him up... 25 years with DEA... now I get it... he really knows what is going on........ ya don't want one of those in office... if you're a bad guy... as he knows your game and is going to do you in.... just that simple...

gnukid - 7-19-2010 at 08:11 PM

I can only say that you guys really show your colors! Terrific! It's great to see and hear people speak their mind honestly that you do support chain gangs for non violent women, housing people in desert tents where the outside temperature was above 110F this weekend and Joe A also boasts that he reduced the daily food budget per person to .40 and reduced their calorie intake too. That is why I asked Barry A what more harsh punishment he had in mind? Since he and Skeet, Msterious and now you are all so open about how you feel about this stuff! Like a team!

Barry A. - 7-19-2010 at 08:21 PM

No "team", Gnu--------we don't know each other, nor have I received any off-board communication from any of them. But there are many of us out here that feel roughly the same way on some subjects, and it may not conform to your idea of 'right'-----so be it--------I think I am right, but open to suggestion, as always.

Since I have been in similar situations as those Non-violent criminals you speak of, and I survived, and truly learned that I don't want to be in that situation again, I have learned to behave myself and NEVER go back into THAT SITUATION again------so yes, it words for me.

I have even spent time in the TJ jail for something I did not do, but it sure looked like I did to the arresting cops, at the time (bank robbery). I was not mad at anybody, I survived, it SURELY was a learning experience, I vowed to be very careful in the future, and I have never been back to jail again. But I REFUSE to pay any mordida, and never have in 55 years of travel in Mexico. I truly believe that if EVERYBODY refused to pay, then it would just go away------like poof!!!!

That's my take--------- :light:

Barry

gnukid - 7-19-2010 at 08:31 PM

So what you are saying is that you believe in very HARSH punishment of non-violent criminals? or perhaps even innocents as you were? And while you keep agreeing with the same people when they say similar HARSH things you still have no association or group code of conduct supporting each other irregardless, you just happen to do it for no reason other than because. It's great that you can be so clear about your beliefs. Now that we know you we can pretty much predict what you'll say and who you will support irregardless and vice versa-but it's not a team since you haven't met. What is it then? Like a code or an oath?

wessongroup - 7-19-2010 at 08:48 PM

Seems I saw where he has a 7% recidivism rate on his drug offenders.. something is working..

As for being in a tent at 110 plus, been there.. and that is why I staying along the coast here in Baja north... think it was around 78º

And I also in 1965 while working on transmission line construction across the desert in heat of around 118º decided that I was in need of a career change..

Perhaps that is the intent of Mr Arpaio... to give one an example which they will remember for a long time... you know.. LIKE I NEVER WANT TO GO BACK THERE !!!

As for working on a chain gang in the heat.. there are folks that work in those conditions everyday.. They are called Agricultural workers.. and they do it for money.. might not live in tents.. but, I seen them setting on the porches at 3 am.. as the swamp cooler still is just not cutting it..

The only down side to the system in my opinion ... once your "marked" by the system... your life is effectively destroyed.. if a felony.. your dead meat.. about the only thing you're going to be doing is washing cars, dishes or driveways.. for the rest of your life, if you're a man.. .a woman still has the ability of finding a man that will love and support her... but, a man... there aren't too many ladies out there that are going to "hook up" with an ex-felon and support "HIM".. funny how that works.. oh, maybe he will find a Princess who will made him a King.. :lol:

gnukid - 7-19-2010 at 09:01 PM

You guys have this well thought out, so let's see, extremely HARSH punishment for non-violent offenders for example some one with drugs, and then no woman will make 'HIM' King.

And for corrupt police, illegal torturers or say malfeasance in Government, No prison time.

wessongroup - 7-19-2010 at 10:26 PM

Given the problems one has after getting released, removing the "drug" deal is really important.. as you right back in with the "crew" if you can't get away from it.... just the way it works...

Second part... no "slack".. "who ever" are found doing wrong ... hang them or put them into jail... same as everyone else... and "white collar" they should be doing "hard time"... too!!

Plus, no deluxe jails for the "big folks"... have you even seen what the "high ranking" get to spend their time in ??

gnukid - 7-20-2010 at 12:18 AM

Good that you can differentiate between legally highly addictive medicinal drugs versus illegal highly addictive medicinal drugs or alcohol or illegal non-addictive medicinal drugs like marijuana. Wasn't it George Washington who wrote about the importance of Marijauna crops to our country for clothes, bread, ropes and medicine, and then later prohibition of marijuana helped fuel the legal tobacco market which is highly addictive and harmful, while the black market of marijuana grows larger. And why again was alcohol prohibited, yet sold everywhere and then legal again. Who profited? Who profits? I so glad you have so well figured out because it seems that so no one else can see the trees because the forest is blocking the view.

WG who runs the heroine? Cocaine? Meth? Hello?

wessongroup - 7-20-2010 at 07:51 AM

My position has always been, if you want to go back through my posts, one can "do" anything thing they want, it's their body... if you want to do "smack" go for it.. smoke "rock" go for it... grow pot, go for it.. I believe that is part of the Freedom which is part of the United States of America.... which has and will continue to be taken away.. personal Freedom to do things YOU as an INDIVIDUAL want to do...

I don't see the Government having ANY business in an individuals "right" to do what they want, IF their actions only hurt themselves.. and yes of course there is really big money made out of this whole thing.. and it based on one thing ... Greed !!! and it is CONTROLLED business, legal and illegal...

I would rather folks do not do addictive drugs, as I became addicted to Fentanyl just about 3 years ago.. if was no fun "kicking".. but, it was my call.. as I was in pain, and everyone kept telling me to go to a "Pain Management" Doctor...

He was nothing more than a legal pushers.. he charged Medicare $500 dollars for a 10 minute visit.. as it is classified as a Cat 1 .. you can only get a prescription for 30 days.. so this joker is making $6000 dollars off me per year, and every other patient he has ... plus the Drug Company that has patient on it.. as it is not "generic" so you and/or Medicare and/or your add on to your Part B or D or what ever so you can afford your medication..

Currently I have to pay just about $1,200 per month just for medical insurance and prescriptions for my wife..

If you think I don't know what is going on, your wrong..

But to compare individuals in jail to the outside population is not a fair comparison..

When they get out, with maybe $30, and with many having NO ONE to help them, they are dead meat!!.. they have to find a place to stay, transportation, a job, and by the way... the have to meet with their PO the next day...

Having a drug problem when released from prison .... it not a get out of jail card... rather ... it a "you're going back" card.. given to them from their Government and their Society...

That's my story and I'm sticking to it... on the issue of ones freedom to do any substance they want to...

Considering that 90% of the worlds Heroine comes from Afghanistan.... gee, wonder who.. and it goes from their to ..... its all about Greed

Take it away by allowing individuals to do what ever they want on their own property... but, then ..... no one would make a BUCK!! about the only thing one could not grow.. Coca ... the plant requires a somewhat special environment.. the others will grow any place.. and they are just plants anyway.. which have been used since recorded history by the human species.. for various uses..

I don't think we really have a disagreement on this point.. maybe on "treatment" of prisoners, immigration (maybe) not sure .... but, not this use of drugs.. Smokem if you have them.. cook it up.. it's your body.. and put a still up too.. I posted the plans for a still for free, they are still up.. you can make your own ethanol, which you can use for fuel and drink and what ever else...

I'm going to try and find someone down here to make one up for me.. in copper.. copper is better in my opinion for "drinking" than stainless steel..

Want a project for the community.. how about making fuel for everyone

http://idisk.mac.com/wswesson//Public/Building%20the%20Still...

You can get conversion kits for just about all vehicles including motorcycles

Just another means to remove ones self from being part of a revenue stream which supports.. guess who....

Folks in jail don't do legal drugs.. they do what they are on.. the ones you mentioned..

Anyone that has spent time in court and around jails knows that 80% of this folks at there due to "drugs"..

The John Dillinger types of gangsters are long gone.. no one robs banks for a living anymore.. they are addicted individuals, who just keep getting busted..

[Edited on 7-20-2010 by wessongroup]

sorry for the errors.. just type..

[Edited on 7-20-2010 by wessongroup]

[Edited on 7-20-2010 by wessongroup]

Bajajorge - 7-20-2010 at 08:09 AM

Have y'all seen desertcpl post (7/20/10) on the Discussion page about Arizona license plates?

The Gnu Asks:

MrBillM - 7-20-2010 at 08:21 AM

"Who runs the heroine"?

How would we know ? Be specific. WHO is SHE ?

Jan Brewer ?

toneart - 7-20-2010 at 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup
My position has always been, if you want to go back through my posts, one can "do" anything thing they want, it's their body... if you want to do "smack" go for it.. smoke "rock" go for it... grow pot, go for it.. I believe that is part of the Freedom which is part of the United States of America.... which has and will continue to be taken away.. personal Freedom to do things YOU as an INDIVIDUAL what to do...

I don't see the Government having ANY business in an individuals "right" to do what they want, IF their actions only hurt themselves.. and yes of course there is really big money made out of this whole thing.. and it based on one thing ... Greed !!! and it is CONTROLLED business, legal and illegal...

I would rather folks do not do addictive drugs, as I became addicted to Fentanyl just about 3 years ago.. if was no fun "kicking".. but, it was my call.. as I was in pain, and everyone kept telling me to go to a "Pain Management" Doctor...

He was nothing more than a legal pushers.. he charged Medicare $500 dollars for a 10 minute visit.. as it is classified as a Cat 1 .. you can only get a prescription for 30 days.. so this joker is making $6000 dollars off me per year, and every other patient he has ... plus the Drug Company that has patient on it.. as it is not "generic" so you and/or Medicare and/or your add on to your Part B or D or what ever so you can afford your medication..

Currently I have to pay just about $1,200 per month just for medical insurance and prescriptions for my wife..

If you think I don't know what is going on, your wrong..

But to compare individuals in jail to the outside population is not a fair comparison..

When they get out, with maybe $30, and with many having NO ONE to help them, they are dead meat!!.. they have to find a place to stay, transportation, a job, and by the way... the have to meet with their PO the next day...

Having a drug problem when released from prison .... it not a get out of jail card... rather ... it a "you're going back" card.. given to them from their Government and their Society...

That's my story and I'm sticking to it... on the issue of ones freedom to do any substance they want to...

Considering that 90% of the worlds Heroine comes from Afghanistan.... gee, wonder who.. and it goes from their to ..... its all about Greed

Take it away by allowing individuals to do what ever they want on their own property... but, then ..... no one would make a BUCK!! about the only thing one could not grow.. Coca ... the plant requires a somewhat special environment.. the others will grow any place.. and they are just plants anyway.. which have been used since recorded history by the human species.. for various uses..

I don't think we really have a disagreement on this point.. maybe on "treatment" of prisoners, immigration (maybe) not sure .... but, not this use of drugs.. Smokem if you have them.. cook it up.. it's your body.. and put a still up too.. I posted the plans for a still for free, they are still up.. you can make your own ethanol, which you can use for fuel and drink and what ever else...

I'm going to try and find someone down here to make one up for me.. in copper.. copper is better in my opinion for "drinking" than stainless steel..

Want a project for the community.. how about making fuel for everyone

http://idisk.mac.com/wswesson//Public/Building%20the%20Still...

You can get conversion kits for just about all vehicles including motorcycles

Just another means to remove ones self from being part of a revenue stream which supports.. guess who....

Folks in jail don't do legal drugs.. they do what they are on.. the ones you mentioned..

Anyone that has spent time in court and around jails knows that 80% of this folks at there due to "drugs"..

The John Dillinger types of gangsters are long gone.. no one robs banks for a living anymore.. they are addicted individuals, who just keep getting busted..

[Edited on 7-20-2010 by wessongroup]

sorry for the errors.. just type..

[Edited on 7-20-2010 by wessongroup]

Good post, Wessonman!

Judge's Ruling NO Problema

MrBillM - 8-2-2010 at 06:21 PM

Says Sheriff Joe.

Who is Continuing his "Round Em Up" programs.

He pointed out that the Butthead Bolton's ruling covered only officers being Forced to ask immigration questions during the normal course of a stop or arrest.

He has no shortage of officers who "voluntarily" ask the questions.

36,000 detained so far.

More to come.

Harry Reid was Right ?

MrBillM - 8-18-2010 at 06:49 PM

Hard to believe, but I just saw Harry Reid making the argument against "Anchor Babies" on the floor of Congress.

It was in 1993, though.

And, he changed his mind six years later.

Sniffed a change in the political wind much like his latest position statement on the NY Mosqued-Men.

gnukid - 8-18-2010 at 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
"Who runs the heroine"?

How would we know ? Be specific. WHO is SHE ?

Jan Brewer ?

Finally a spelling N-zi. Thanks Bill.

I was reading a local USA mexican paper today whose headline was 350,000 Mexicans deported. It had tons of interviews and photos of Mexican Americans who were being deported after living the majority of their lives in the USA.

And I read in a english paper in a small farm town in California, they have a section in the police blotter noting how many deportations each week with specifics, names, interviews, where the story is generally the police asks the Mexican if they here legally and they Mexian replies no I am not, and the police calls ICE who eventually does arrive to process the person.

Of course, on the other hand we have many sanctuary cities, where deportation is not allowed unless a person has been convicted of a felon and served their time.

Reviewing population statistics for Mexico, the population has grown from about 50 million in 1970 to 111 million in 2010, more than doubling in 40 years.

So it appears there is some concern about population in Mexico, returning Mexicans to Mexico and it's affect on the economy as well as emigrant foreigners who fail to apply for visas and who work without visas.

Bottom line, is this is much to do with nothing. The focus of discussion should be, jobs, infrastructure, education, and investment in the economy as opposed to war machines and drug wars, yet these distractions such as Arizona laws or Mexican passport checks are in the news while in fact these are not stories, this isn't news.

Hopefully people are increasingly aware that the 'news' isn't news. It's a distraction from real issues. Only when people realize their own significance to the puzzle of economics and politics and simply reject these distractions for issues of importance will we begin to simply and easily address our real concerns-which are in general, jobs, infrastructure, education, and investment in the economy. Number one priority-end the war machine.

[Edited on 8-19-2010 by gnukid]

Pretty damn tired of this...

Pompano - 8-18-2010 at 07:53 PM

This thread has more turns than a sidewinder on the desert floor, but I feel like voicing my opinion on the gist of the matter. I am certainly not alone. I know SO many honest Americans & Mexicans who suffer this crap silently...up till now. Time to vent...

I'm tired of illegal aliens being called "undocumented
workers," especially the ones who aren't working, but are
living on welfare or crime. What's next? Calling drug
dealers, "Undocumented Pharmacists"?

I've lived in Baja 6-7 months out of the last 37, and have all the good Mexican friends one could hope for, so no, I'm not against Hispanics. Most of them are Catholic and it's been a few hundred years since Catholics wanted to kill me for my religion. I bear no malice.

I'm willing to fast track for citizenship any Hispanic person who can speak English, doesn't have a criminal record and who is self-supporting without family on welfare, or who serves honorably for three years in our military.

Those are the citizens we need.

Damn..I feel better already! Who sells soapboxes these days?

Keeping the Pot Stirred

MrBillM - 8-18-2010 at 10:32 PM

Until November, at least.

Although the economy, or lack of it, will be the number one factor by a wide margin, every other hot-button issue that might bring out the Dissatisfied voter is important. With unemployment guaranteed to remain around 9.5 well into the future, a substantial element of that dissatisfaction will be over Illegal workers.

Who knows ? Given a little luck, we may have another outrage of some sort involving an illegal alien and stoking the fire hotter.

With almost every "Swing" race determined by less than three percent, every little bit helps.

And, success in November will shake up the ship for 2012. Obama might not be Clinton, but like all who end up in that office, self-preservation is a strong motivator.

Let's HOPE for CHANGE.

Cypress - 8-19-2010 at 05:10 AM

And the thread continues, 'bout time for someone to start yelling "bigot". :biggrin:

capt. mike - 8-19-2010 at 06:52 AM

Pompano - yours is a voice of reason and is they wAY THE majority of AZ citizens feel.
it ain't about hate - it is about LAWS and RESPECT for them!!!!!!!!
i too have dozens of hispanic friends in USA and Mexico business and personal.

Lobsterman - 8-19-2010 at 09:44 AM

To me it's just about jobs. In my area my 20 year old daughter and her friends have a hard time finding and keeping jobs because a lot of the entry level jobs are filled by illegals. When i was a kid I picked cantelopes in Yuma, was a busyboy, a yardman, worked in hamburger joints, etc. Those jobs were parlayed to better jobs due to having a job history of experience and work ethic. Now I am retiring comfortably. If I did not work in my teens and early 20s in those entry-level jobs, I'm 100% sure I would not be where I am today. There are millions of others who took entry level jobs in their teens and used that experience to move up the ladder.

Today those jobs are not available in numbers adequate for our kids to get their 1st or 2nd jobs. No job, no experience, begets no jobs. It's a "catch 22". Therefore let's get all the illegals workers out of those jobs and open them up to our kids and the unemployed. There are millions of "99 weekers" in the USA today. Those are the unemployed who have received 99 weeks of unemployment and are no longer eligible for it. I'm sure they will make a hotel room's bed vs. being homeless. If cost go up so be it. Let the market rise to the true value of the task performed.

It's also not fair that we exploit many of these illegal workers in the USA with low wages and horrid living conditions (in canyons in our area) and it is especially not fair to our kids. Don't forget these kids are what is going to fund your SSI retirement in the future not illegal workers working for cash or a pitance of what they are worth.

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