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Gary Patton - Updated Jan. 5, 2015

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Taco de Baja - 4-9-2014 at 04:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Is there not a coastal route from San Quintin to Punta Canoas and all points south?


Depends on your definition of "coastal" Short answer is "no".

The paved Hwy 1 hugs the coast pretty well between San Quintin and El Rosario, and as such the beaches here are sketchy and not an ideal place to camp overnight.

It is very rugged between El Rosario and Canoas. Roads head off Hwy 1 to the coast in this area but I don’t think any really head up or down, just to a specific fish camp or two.

Also rather rough between Canoas and Faro San Jose, many of the "coastal" roads in this area have to head miles and miles inland to get around the deep canyons and headlands. South of Faro San Jose the road is pretty well on the coast; but again, there are still many areas where the road must head inland to get around the canyons and headlands.

monoloco - 4-9-2014 at 05:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by soulpatch
Besides, Toyotas like that are about the easiest thing on earth to make entry into..... they are made to be stolen.
I could start the last Toyota that I owned with 4 different keys that were on my key ring.

EnsenadaDr - 4-9-2014 at 05:07 PM

so the turnoff he took would have been the best route to head towards canoas from San Quintin?
Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Is there not a coastal route from San Quintin to Punta Canoas and all points south?


Depends on your definition of "coastal" Short answer is "no".

The paved Hwy 1 hugs the coast pretty well between San Quintin and El Rosario, and as such the beaches here are sketchy and not an ideal place to camp overnight.

It is very rugged between El Rosario and Canoas. Roads head off Hwy 1 to the coast in this area but I don’t think any really head up or down, just to a specific fish camp or two.

Also rather rough between Canoas and Faro San Jose, many of the "coastal" roads in this area have to head miles and miles inland to get around the deep canyons and headlands. South of Faro San Jose the road is pretty well on the coast; but again, there are still many areas where the road must head inland to get around the canyons and headlands.

danaeb - 4-9-2014 at 05:17 PM

I swore I wouldn't jump in and apologize if this has already been discussed, but there's something really nagging me about the rancher's account. He found the car and towed it to his house for safekeeping. He found a phone number that he thought was the family's. Where did he find it? He CALLED the family to let them know that the car was found, and it's location. But he DROVE to Catavina to notify the police. Why didn't he call the police if he had access to a phone? And if he believed that it was important for the police to be involved, why didn't he call/involve them (as others have said) before he moved the car? And why did HE call the family rather than leaving it to the police?

Dan, do you have a more detailed timeline of his actions other than what you've posted? It's unclear from this account where/when he found the phone number and when he called the family (before or after notifying the police).
Quote:
Originally posted by lizard lips

On March 05 the rancher reported that he drove his tractor to the vehicle and towed it to his ranch where it would be safe. Apparently other ranchers also are looking for cattle and he didn't want anything to happen to the SUV and all of the contents. After towing he drove to the Catavina Police and informed them of the vehicle. On March 09 the police came to his ranch and towed the SUV to their impound yard.

The rancher found a phone number for what he thought was the owners family and called and told them that the vehicle was found and where it was. He had no knowledge of Garys disappearance prior to locating the SUV.



[Edited on 4-10-2014 by danaeb]

lizard lips - 4-9-2014 at 05:18 PM

I don't why the police even let the boys see the camera let alone view what they did. I believe it's all protocol Latina. The Tijuana American Embassy has been in touch with the family and they contacted the family indicating that the vehicle has been released so they can pick it up anytime. It will be very interesting what is in the 4 Runner when they get it back. We know from the rancher what he saw and the family had a view but we don't know exactly what items they observed while at the Catavina PD. Just a waiting game right now.

A rattler could have very well hit him or a hungry Mountain Lion or a group of Coyotes. It's all a guessing game right now.

Taco de Baja - 4-9-2014 at 05:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
so the turnoff he took would have been the best route to head towards canoas from San Quintin?
Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Is there not a coastal route from San Quintin to Punta Canoas and all points south?


Depends on your definition of "coastal" Short answer is "no".

The paved Hwy 1 hugs the coast pretty well between San Quintin and El Rosario, and as such the beaches here are sketchy and not an ideal place to camp overnight.

It is very rugged between El Rosario and Canoas. Roads head off Hwy 1 to the coast in this area but I don’t think any really head up or down, just to a specific fish camp or two.

Also rather rough between Canoas and Faro San Jose, many of the "coastal" roads in this area have to head miles and miles inland to get around the deep canyons and headlands. South of Faro San Jose the road is pretty well on the coast; but again, there are still many areas where the road must head inland to get around the canyons and headlands.


No, there is a road that turns off Hwy 1 between El Rosario and the turn off to Faro San Jose that goes to Canoas. IF he took the Faro San Jose road he was backtracking and spending a lot more time off road than he really needed to.

However, as it has been mentioned, he could have gone to Canoas for a couple of days and been heading back to Hwy 1 on the road where the 4Runner was found. He could have just been trying a different route back.

lizard lips - 4-9-2014 at 05:21 PM

What I do know is that the rancher found a phone number somewhere in the vehicle for the family and called. There are no land lines or cellular operating in this remote area. The rancher said he called the family when he personally met with the police on March 05.

EnsenadaDr - 4-9-2014 at 05:28 PM

The rancher might have just kept the car for himself instead of reporting the vehicle if he wanted to cover anything up. No one ever would have found it and he could have repainted it and used it for himself or sold it. So I see absolutely no foul play here.

danaeb - 4-9-2014 at 05:28 PM

Thanks Dan. Now I can get over my obsession with this mystery. At least for now. :(

EnsenadaDr - 4-9-2014 at 05:43 PM

Here is a statement made by Gary's brother who said he was headed to a surfing beach south of San Quintin:

http://www.dirtlive.com/forum/showthread.php?160-Be-on-looko...

Hello everyone. New member here.
Hoping all the added eyeballs in Baja for the 1000 will aid in the search for my brother, Gary Patton. God only knows what route he took looking for that "perfect photo"....... Hopefully, one of you will see something. . .
Gary visited Baja with friends almost all his life, but he traveled alone this time. His plan was to camp at surfing beaches south of San Quintin ​​​​, perhaps visit whale shark sites in B ​LA, but his love of photography could have caused him to explore new ground. He spoke often of talking with the owner at Mama Esponoza's .
Photo of his 2-wheel drive 4-Runner is on poster, but added rack is pictured here:
http://www.yakima.com/shop/cargo/gea...ts/loadwarrior

Reports have been filed with Mexican and American Police, American Embassy, Red Cross, Flying Samaritan Doctors (eyes in the sky), and U.S. Border Patrol. BajaNomad.com members have been
helpful, with some riding the dirt and pavement, plus posting posters.

Gary's confirmed, last known communication and location:
* San Quintin (first night's stay @ Hotel Jardinis 9/4-5th );
Sightings since family reported Gary missing 9/10:
* Punta Abreojos fishing tournament 9/9 or 9/15 - vehicle spotting only; Unconfirmed, did not participate in event
* La Chorera beach (woman resident reported spotting vehicle only (9/16&17th)
* Bahia de Los Angeles (couple reported spotting vehicle while visiting there (9/22)
* Rosarito Beach (woman ID'd photo, reported a conversation w/Gary ~ 9/10 - 9/26)

Gary loves seafood, would eat at local street vendors, be seen taking photos of surfers and waves, not typically be in shopping malls, or staying in hotels, unless poor weather conditions. He'd be camping and near the water with vehicle. He would've had a surfboard and bogie board inside vehicle. He may have hired a fishing boat for fresh fish; would often use a pharmacia to call home or buy ibuprofen, snacks, etc.. His "dumb" cell phone only works in U.S. and all efforts to "track it" have been in vain. He does not use any credit cards, only cash cards. No bank activity has been noted in Mexico.
Family has made 2 road trips, working on a 3rd trip next week. We have volunteers actively flying and searching via roadways down to San Quintin area starting last weekend through this weekend: so far, nothing.
If anyone can report from the La Chohera areas, we could definitely use some searching there and in BOLA near whale shark lagoon(?), given the reports of seeing his vehicle.
Aqua Blanca was another area Gary mentioned.

REPORT ANY SIGHTINGS to Sheila Tubbs Patton at tubbs547@adelphia.net , or Patton Family at U.S. CELL # 949-697-9285 , OR call 066 for Mexico Emergency.

Any information will be greatly appreciated.
Patton family

latina - 4-9-2014 at 05:55 PM

Could it have been a salvage more than an intentional theft of the truck? What if Gary had an accident in the ocean or walking around his campsite at the beach and didn't return to his truck for weeks or months? Could a person think, why let the police have first dibs on it after it's sat impounded at the station for a year or more? I might as well hide it until I can figure out what to do with it...Salvaging abandoned boats isn't a crime NOB...Did anyone ever actually go to the beach at Las Canoas between the time Gary has been missing and the day his truck was discovered?

absinvestor - 4-9-2014 at 05:56 PM

DanaB's questions and LL response have raised some additional questions. In an earlier post LL confirms that the rancher only speaks Spanish yet the Patton's speak English. Based on my experience with ranchers I have given the rancher the benefit of the doubt. His involvement might require additional investigation.

BajaNomad - 4-9-2014 at 05:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Is there not a coastal route from San Quintin to Punta Canoas and all points south?


You can't even walk that route with a mule and not get stuck.... or, at least that's what Mike Younghusband and Don-Kay might tell you:

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=49180

;)

BajaNomad - 4-9-2014 at 06:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr

He spoke often of talking with the owner at Mama Esponoza's .


So many people have commented on the timeframe Gary would've had in going south on Sept 5th (some speculating an "early morning" departure, but I don't see that noted anywhere as indeed a fact) - but the comment above made me again consider all the possibilities of where he could've stopped, or taken time out, along the way south that day.

Just a thought.

willardguy - 4-9-2014 at 06:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by latina
Could it have been a salvage more than an intentional theft of the truck? What if Gary had an accident in the ocean or walking around his campsite at the beach and didn't return to his truck for weeks or months? Could a person think, why let the police have first dibs on it after it's sat impounded at the station for a year or more? I might as well hide it until I can figure out what to do with it...Salvaging abandoned boats isn't a crime NOB...Did anyone ever actually go to the beach at Las Canoas between the time Gary has been missing and the day his truck was discovered?
yes.

okay one more time, if he had been out to the coast, it was loong time after he went missing. the same week the family reported him missing we were between punta canoas and santo domingo. huge rains had left the area between punta canoas down to punta maria a giant mud bog with standing water so deep many of the beach areas were totally inaccessible. the guys at the fish camp (who had just dug out a new 4wd chevy truck that was buried up to the door handles) told us the road out to catavina was impassible.
gary's car was only dusty, he hadn't been out there, in that time frame.

EnsenadaDr - 4-9-2014 at 06:22 PM

Then the bottom line is the search must begin in May where the car was found to look for clues first, hopefully it will start right after sunrise to avoid the sweltering heat.

lizard lips - 4-9-2014 at 06:23 PM

From what I know on September 05 Gary left Jardines at around 6 am. He told them he was planning on returning in a few days (not specific). Mamas was contacted and the Guest book was reviewed by me and Brian McKinzy with nothing about Gary. Flyers were posted and as I said before, flyers were posted everywhere between BOLA and San Quintin. EVERYWHERE….

TMW - 4-9-2014 at 06:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja
Also rather rough between Canoas and Faro San Jose, many of the "coastal" roads in this area have to head miles and miles inland to get around the deep canyons and headlands. South of Faro San Jose the road is pretty well on the coast; but again, there are still many areas where the road must head inland to get around the canyons and headlands.


The coastal route from Canoas to San jose is a graded road. I was on it last month and did a trip report with pictures.

Ricardo - 4-9-2014 at 06:36 PM

Has anyone been able to look at the pictures on his cameras? Even if there is no GPS most pictures have a time and date. I know all I have to do is move my mouse over my thumbnails and the date and time of when the picture was taken appears. or right click then properties etc. etc.
Rick

interesting.......

bajaguy - 4-9-2014 at 06:40 PM

http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=73182

Skipjack Joe - 4-9-2014 at 06:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lizard lips

We know from the rancher what he saw and the family had a view but we don't know exactly what items they observed while at the Catavina PD. Just a waiting game right now.

A rattler could have very well hit him or a hungry Mountain Lion or a group of Coyotes. It's all a guessing game right now.



The rancher claimed to have found the 4Runner with it's wheels buried in sand and shovels and rakes used to dig it out.

It's unlikely he perished from animal bites. The things you mention are infrequent and to have it occur at the same time as a stuck vehicle, also infrequent, is astronomically small.

It would have really been helpful if he had called the authorities to verify the condition of the vehicle at the place where they found it. Photos of the actual site, measurements, anything. Much of the speculation now is because he had it towed. Although in his defense he had no way of knowing of a missing person. He just thought it was an abandoned vehicle.

My opinion is that if he didn't perish near the vehicle it will be a very long, long time before he is found.

danaeb - 4-9-2014 at 06:59 PM

Which brings us back where we started. If Gary had perished in the vicinity of the car, a rancher with 80 head of cattle would surely have investigated circling vultures, wouldn't he? I'm sorry to be so indelicate but the vultures would have been there.

805gregg - 4-9-2014 at 07:17 PM

The body is far from the car, the car was driven and dumped there to lead you away from the body, why can't the Mex police figure these crimes out? Or are they involved in someway?

Mulegena - 4-9-2014 at 07:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lizard lips
What I do know is that the rancher found a phone number somewhere in the vehicle for the family and called. There are no land lines or cellular operating in this remote area. The rancher said he called the family when he personally met with the police on March 05.
Some considerations, LL, perhaps pertinent, maybe not.
To clarify what occurred when the car was reported to the police on March 9.:
The rancher used what phone to call the family?
Did he use the landline phone in Catavina police hq?
Did he use his Mexican cellphone?
Did he use someone else's Mexican or US cellphone?
Does someone in the family speak Spanish? You've indicated the rancher speaks no English?
Why did the rancher make the call rather than the police? The commandante speaks English you indicated?
How often does the rancher come down from his home in Maneadero to tend to his ranch? Who caretakes the ranch on a day-to-day basis? What is the nature of the ranch, i.e. agricultural, cattle, goats?

monoloco - 4-9-2014 at 08:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by danaeb
Which brings us back where we started. If Gary had perished in the vicinity of the car, a rancher with 80 head of cattle would surely have investigated circling vultures, wouldn't he? I'm sorry to be so indelicate but the vultures would have been there.
Not necessarily, it's a big desert and circling vultures are quite common.

monoloco - 4-9-2014 at 08:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 805gregg
The body is far from the car, the car was driven and dumped there to lead you away from the body, why can't the Mex police figure these crimes out? Or are they involved in someway?
That is complete speculation. There is nothing that has been divulged here that would indicate that a crime has been committed.

mtgoat666 - 4-9-2014 at 08:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by monoloco
Quote:
Originally posted by 805gregg
The body is far from the car, the car was driven and dumped there to lead you away from the body, why can't the Mex police figure these crimes out? Or are they involved in someway?
That is complete speculation. There is nothing that has been divulged here that would indicate that a crime has been committed.


Without a body and cause of death, nothing here rules out crime as a probable cause.

Skipjack Joe - 4-9-2014 at 08:45 PM

Agreed. But 805Gregg states his view as certainty and Monoloco corrects him that it's speculation.

Maps are the clue

BeemerDan - 4-9-2014 at 09:09 PM

LL stated that Gary was given 2 maps, assuming one was Baja Norte, and the other Baja Sur.
(ask the family)
Who goes hiking out of a any situation without local knowlege unless they have a map?
If the vehicle was found with a Baja Norte map inside then I would guess foul play, if not he took a hike.
No criminal would think to remove the map/maps.
Forget your cameras, hoes, shovels, ranchers. etc
There lies the best clue IMO

BornFisher - 4-9-2014 at 09:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BeemerDan
LL stated that Gary was given 2 maps, assuming one was Baja Norte, and the other Baja Sur.
(ask the family)
Who goes hiking out of a any situation without local knowlege unless they have a map?
If the vehicle was found with a Baja Norte map inside then I would guess foul play, if not he took a hike.
No criminal would think to remove the map/maps.
Forget your cameras, hoes, shovels, ranchers. etc
There lies the best clue IMO


Please clarify the "best clue". A missing map??? This trumps the camera???

danaeb - 4-9-2014 at 09:25 PM

The family stated that Gary's sister gave him a "set" of maps. You can't assume that it was two maps, one north, one south, from this scrap of info.

lizard lips - 4-9-2014 at 09:30 PM

Mulegena-All of my information regarding the rancher making the call to the family was second hand and you are right, the rancher does not speak English however his daughter does and maybe the rancher called her and in turn called the Pattons. I will find out.

As mentioned in prior posts this is a cattle ranch. He has one employee that takes care of his property when he is gone.

The rancher makes one trip to his ranch per month and the time spent at the ranch can vary from one to two weeks.

I just sent the Pattons an email for help re: your questions however I would like to know, once you have this information, how this would bring us closer to finding Gary especially the use of what phone, who owned the phone and where the call was made.What I mean is what is your thinking for asking these questions and believe me you can ask anything and I will try and get the answer.

[Edited on 4-10-2014 by lizard lips]

BeemerDan - 4-9-2014 at 09:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BornFisher
Quote:
Originally posted by BeemerDan
LL stated that Gary was given 2 maps, assuming one was Baja Norte, and the other Baja Sur.
(ask the family)
Who goes hiking out of a any situation without local knowlege unless they have a map?
If the vehicle was found with a Baja Norte map inside then I would guess foul play, if not he took a hike.
No criminal would think to remove the map/maps.
Forget your cameras, hoes, shovels, ranchers. etc
There lies the best clue IMO


Please clarify the "best clue". A missing map??? This trumps the camera???


Correct me if I'm wrong, it was stated the last pic taken on the camera was in Catavina? I'm a analog kind of guy and always go for the old school obvious.
If you got stuck somewhere and had a map to get you out, would you leave it behind or take it with you?

BeemerDan - 4-9-2014 at 09:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by danaeb
The family stated that Gary's sister gave him a "set" of maps. You can't assume that it was two maps, one north, one south, from this scrap of info.


Why would they give Gary two copys of the same map?
Most people I know that do the peninsula have a copy of Norte, and Sur.
Don't you? Like I said maybe ask the family.

lizard lips - 4-9-2014 at 10:05 PM

Don't know anything re: maps or if the sister gave him any. I am assuming he did have maps and I will ask. No mention that maps were found in the 4 Runner and we probably won't find that our until the end of the month.

It was never mentioned where the photo was taken. It was mentioned however that it was a memorial made by the family of a guy that apparently died on the highway.

[Edited on 4-10-2014 by lizard lips]

lizard lips - 4-9-2014 at 10:14 PM

For all of you here posting and asking really great questions, I and the Pattons Thank You Mucho!

I must ask though if you are going to ask a question and have not read all of the posts, and there are about three hours of reading, to please start from the beginning and educate yourself with everything that has been said. I know it's a lot but I will be here answering all day long regarding questions that either have already been asked or were confirmed earlier.

I'm not attempting be a jerk but I'm getting really tired of going through everything three times. I hope you can appreciate what I am asking.

Thanks Guys!

This just in: Gary was given by his sister both Baja Norte and Baja Sur Automobile Club maps. Just those.

[Edited on 4-10-2014 by lizard lips]

BornFisher - 4-9-2014 at 10:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BeemerDan
Quote:
Originally posted by BornFisher
Quote:
Originally posted by BeemerDan
LL stated that Gary was given 2 maps, assuming one was Baja Norte, and the other Baja Sur.
(ask the family)
Who goes hiking out of a any situation without local knowlege unless they have a map?
If the vehicle was found with a Baja Norte map inside then I would guess foul play, if not he took a hike.
No criminal would think to remove the map/maps.
Forget your cameras, hoes, shovels, ranchers. etc
There lies the best clue IMO


Please clarify the "best clue". A missing map??? This trumps the camera???


Correct me if I'm wrong, it was stated the last pic taken on the camera was in Catavina? I'm a analog kind of guy and always go for the old school obvious.
If you got stuck somewhere and had a map to get you out, would you leave it behind or take it with you?


So your best clue is a map left behind? And that means exactly what?
Most maps are for driving, with scales of say 1 inch equals 10 miles. Useless for someone who is walking and needs a very detailed map showing trails and the topographic changes in elevation in a small area.

BeemerDan - 4-9-2014 at 10:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lizard lips
Don't know anything re: maps or if the sister gave him any. I am assuming he did have maps and I will ask. No mention that maps were found in the 4 Runner and we probably won't find that our until the end of the month.

It was never mentioned where the photo was taken. It was mentioned however that it was a memorial made by the family of a guy that apparently died on the highway.

If you do find the maps and I hope you don't mind one other suggestion.
I commonly highlight the routes I've taken or about to take. on maps. So maybe another clue?
I sent David K a similiar situation to fwd you that occurred years ago.



[Edited on 4-10-2014 by lizard lips]

BornFisher - 4-9-2014 at 10:25 PM

Quote:




This just in: Gary was given by his sister both Baja Norte and Baja Sur Automobile Club maps. Just those.

[Edited on 4-10-2014 by lizard lips]


Last time I got a Baja map from AAA, it was ONE map with north on one side and south on the other.

absinvestor - 4-9-2014 at 10:39 PM

I don't want to go back to get the exact quote but at one point LL said that if Gary was found alive that LL wanted the first crack at him- also a Newspaper was mentioned. I interpreted those two posts to say that LL felt that there was a possibility (maybe remote) that Gary might be attempting to not be found. If I interpreted those two posts incorrectly I apologize- It has been indicated that Gary took plenty of cash with him and no withdrawals have been made from his bank account. (Strange over a 6 month period.) However, do we know if there have been recent deposits? Gary receives social security which is required to be automatically deposited into a bank account. If the auto deposits have continued with no withdrawals it is one thing- however, if the deposits have stopped we need to find out where they are now being deposited.

BornFisher - 4-9-2014 at 10:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by absinvestor
If the auto deposits have continued with no withdrawals it is one thing- however, if the deposits have stopped we need to find out where they are now being deposited.


I don`t get it. What are you suggesting? He faked his death? Changed identity? Insurance scam? Or what??????????

BeemerDan - 4-9-2014 at 11:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BornFisher

Last time I got a Baja map from AAA, it was ONE map with north on one side and south on the other.


Give your head a big shake and go to bed:lol:

lizard lips - 4-9-2014 at 11:09 PM

What I meant by crack was if he just walks in the front door of his sister home and says "I'm home" I will take the trip to OC and be the first to confront him… It was just a joke and no reference to him wanting to be missing….

I don't know about deposits ab-what I have been told that there has been no withdrawals.

Bornfisher-As far a AAA maps are concerned I don't have a clue all I know is that is what he was given…….Was it just one map or two?

Mulegena - 4-9-2014 at 11:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lizard lips
Mulegena-All of my information regarding the rancher making the call to the family was second hand and you are right, the rancher does not speak English however his daughter does and maybe the rancher called her and in turn called the Pattons. I will find out.

As mentioned in prior posts this is a cattle ranch. He has one employee that takes care of his property when he is gone.

The rancher makes one trip to his ranch per month and the time spent at the ranch can vary from one to two weeks.

I just sent the Pattons an email for help re: your questions however I would like to know, once you have this information, how this would bring us closer to finding Gary especially the use of what phone, who owned the phone and where the call was made.What I mean is what is your thinking for asking these questions and believe me you can ask anything and I will try and get the answer.

[Edited on 4-10-2014 by lizard lips]
I'm looking for clarity and consistency in the details because there is so little known at this point.
Who actually spoke to Gary's family? Was it someone acting on behalf of the police and acting as translator? If so for whom, the police or the rancher? What information was given to the family by that person(s)?

lizard lips - 4-10-2014 at 07:08 AM

Answers from the family. I know whats coming next-----Why wasn't a call made sooner than March 27th when the 4 Runner was found on the 4th? This question I won't know and either does the family so we will have more speculation on this I'm sure and I welcome it:

The rancher used what phone to call the family?

==>He called me on my home phone from his family's business near Ensenada on March 27th.<==

Did he use the landline phone in Catavina police hq?

==>The Catavina police called March 17th from the Hotel Catavina phone because they do not have a phone (I believe they have a cell but there's no service there so would not reach him anyway)

<==
Did he use his Mexican cellphone?

Father and family do not have cell phones just the office phone.

Did he use someone else's Mexican or US cellphone?

==>Called from the business.<==

Does someone in the family speak Spanish? You've indicated the rancher speaks no English?

The ranchers' family speaks good english.

Why did the rancher make the call rather than the police? The commandante speaks English you indicated?

==>The rancher called me to ensure the police had contacted us about the car being found, but the daughter's first question when I answered was is Gary Payton there, are you his family? Is Gary still in Baja? I then said he is still missing, and she then informed me her father is who found the car and called the Catavina police. And that was March 5th, but the police only came to get the car, tow the car, March 9th. Then they called me March 17th.
<==
How often does the rancher come down from his home in Maneadero to tend to his ranch?
Who caretakes the ranch on a day-to-day basis? What is the nature of the ranch, i.e. agricultural, cattle, goats?

==>Rancher makes trips up to Ensenada every 2-4 weeks, stays a few weeks, then returns. Also does business in Ensenada. Not sure who stays at the ranch, it's mostly cattle ranch, but maybe tractors and machinery as well. The rancher was very concerned that maybe nothing had been done by the police and I told him I could not really substantiate whether search of any kind had been done.
This man even took the time to meet with Dan the following week for several hours. There is no reason to suspect this man of anything, I am confident, we are sure. He has offered to help us when we come down, although he cannot supply anything, no water or supplies but he did offer to help. He will be returning I believe in a few weeks too. <==


[Edited on 4-10-2014 by lizard lips]

[Edited on 4-10-2014 by lizard lips]

absinvestor - 4-10-2014 at 08:18 AM

BornFisher- I wasn't suggesting anything but if someone didn't want to be found it would be easy to change social security auto deposits to go to a Mexican or any other bank. It would also be simple for a person that might have something to do with the disappearance to change auto deposits by claiming to be Gary- I'm not suggesting anything but if the deposits are still going into the original bank account and there have been no withdrawals it would help eliminate other possibilities. To LL- thanks for the clarification. I can be guilty of reading too much into a post.

EnsenadaDr - 4-10-2014 at 08:18 AM

I think we all have to keep in mind the truck was not there just until recently. This would indicate that Gary did not get stuck there in September. Many are assuming he got stuck there and was looking for help. But if the rancher didn't see the truck until a month ago, then he never did go camping or get lost there, unless he was wandering around aimlessly for 6 months and ended up there which is highly unlikely since there was no activity on his bank account from September forward. Another fact another reader from another board is missing: the man left Jardines at 6 am. It is at the most 2 hours to the turnoff he supposedly turned off at. Why would he decide to camp at 8 am? In any case, the vehicle wasn't there before March.

[Edited on 4-10-2014 by EnsenadaDr]

latina - 4-10-2014 at 08:56 AM

The whole scenario seems to hinge on whether or not the 80 year old rancher's memory of being in the exact same spot in hectares of dense cactus and brush and not seeing Gary's car there is infallible.

Having spent lots of time camping in the desert I know you could be ALMOST in the exact same spot and something low and grey could easily be obscured by the tall cactus of varying shapes...

If the rancher's memory is correct, Gary could be ANYWHERE :(

If the rancher has made a miscalculation, he would likely be found somewhere between the highway and the first sign of habitation towards the beach...

absinvestor - 4-10-2014 at 09:00 AM

Ensenada Dr- The rancher's insistence that the truck was not there in Dec is also troubling to me. I just can't make myself believe that he is mistaken. Absent his assurance that the truck wasn't there earlier I would have been on board with believing that Gary got on the road the day he left Jardines an got stuck etc.

Skipjack Joe - 4-10-2014 at 09:06 AM

Sorry Janene,

But virtually everything except the ranchers observations suggest that the truck has been there 6 months.

1) There are 150 unaccounted for miles on the odometer. That means he would have driven 150 miles in 6 months.

2) the car had tires buried in sand with shovel and rake excavations showing attempts to dig it out.

3) Unfinished food and drinks in car and melted ice.

4) Camera laying on front seat untouched.

5) Money in car and fairly exposed.

Tell me. What abducter in their right mind would leave a car in this condition?

vgabndo - 4-10-2014 at 09:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Sorry Janene,

But virtually everything except the ranchers observations suggest that the truck has been there 6 months.

1) There are 150 unaccounted for miles on the odometer. That means he would have driven 150 miles in 6 months.

2) the car had tires buried in sand with shovel and rake excavations showing attempts to dig it out.

3) Unfinished food and drinks in car and melted ice.

4) Camera laying on front seat untouched.

5) Money in car and fairly exposed.

Tell me. What abducter in their right mind would leave a car in this condition?



"SOMETIMES LIFE IS TRUER THAN FICTION."???????:lol:

lizard lips - 4-10-2014 at 10:01 AM

"SOMETIMES LIFE IS TRUER THAN FICTION."???????:lol

YES…...

BajaBlanca - 4-10-2014 at 10:09 AM

"SOMETIMES LIFE IS TRUER THAN FICTION."??????? :lol:

yup

Taco de Baja - 4-10-2014 at 10:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
I think we all have to keep in mind the truck was not there just until recently. This would indicate that Gary did not get stuck there in September. Many are assuming he got stuck there and was looking for help. But if the rancher didn't see the truck until a month ago, then he never did go camping or get lost there, unless he was wandering around aimlessly for 6 months and ended up there which is highly unlikely since there was no activity on his bank account from September forward. Another fact another reader from another board is missing: the man left Jardines at 6 am. It is at the most 2 hours to the turnoff he supposedly turned off at. Why would he decide to camp at 8 am? In any case, the vehicle wasn't there before March.

[Edited on 4-10-2014 by EnsenadaDr]


Your estimates on times are way off. There is NO way he got from San Quintin to that location in 2 hours. You have to remember, these are Baja roads, not a freeway. On the pavement there are slow trucks, towns, windy roads, and military checkpoints. It's ~100 miles from San Quintin to the dirt road turn off. This alone will take 2-2.5 hours, not including time to fill up in El Rosario on gas and food, it he chose too. It’s slightly more than an hour from El Rosario to the turn-off, and this is the "fast" section. If he continued south to Cataviña to get fuel and back track, add more time in.

Remember too that area had some recent storms [I was on portions of the road he likely took at the very end of August, and got caught in one of the first of a series of rain from the outer reaches of a hurricane, the roads were a mess] and once off road driving would have been slow with ruts, washouts, and standing pools of water, as such the drive to the location where the truck was found could have been an additional 3 hours. So we are now up to 5-6 hours. And who says you can’t camp at noon? It's not like a hotel with no check-in before 3:00PM; camping is supposed to be about not having any set schedules.

This of course all assumes he went directly to this spot from San Quintin....I have seen nothing to point that this is what happened, as I have seen nothing to point that he spent a couple of days exploring before going here....Then there's the rancher's testimony that the truck was not here in December, and that shoots both theories down.

EnsenadaDr - 4-10-2014 at 10:18 AM

First of all the 150 miles could have been put on the car by someone else, and we don't know what side trips Gary might have made, so it is not entirely accurate to the mile.

Secondly, he could have had food in the car when the car was taken. The abductor wouldn't have to eat the food to prove the car was stolen from Gary.

Did anyone think the reason the Rancher didn't try to drive the car is that he was using the rake and shovel to dig the car out? Why are we assuming it was Gary?

How much money was in the car? I thought his wallet was missing?

I don't laugh at any of your observations so I would appreciate the same respect Vagabundo.

Why then would Gary leave and end up in a place 2 hours later camping? As someone else said there was a much better route to follow for the fish/surf camps on the coast.

EnsenadaDr - 4-10-2014 at 10:21 AM

Someone also said the car would have been covered in mud if he had gone towards the coast.
Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
I think we all have to keep in mind the truck was not there just until recently. This would indicate that Gary did not get stuck there in September. Many are assuming he got stuck there and was looking for help. But if the rancher didn't see the truck until a month ago, then he never did go camping or get lost there, unless he was wandering around aimlessly for 6 months and ended up there which is highly unlikely since there was no activity on his bank account from September forward. Another fact another reader from another board is missing: the man left Jardines at 6 am. It is at the most 2 hours to the turnoff he supposedly turned off at. Why would he decide to camp at 8 am? In any case, the vehicle wasn't there before March.

[Edited on 4-10-2014 by EnsenadaDr]


Your estimates on times are way off. There is NO way he got from San Quintin to that location in 2 hours. You have to remember, these are Baja roads, not a freeway. On the pavement there are slow trucks, towns, windy roads, and military checkpoints. It's ~100 miles from San Quintin to the dirt road turn off. This alone will take 2-2.5 hours, not including time to fill up in El Rosario on gas and food, it he chose too. It’s slightly more than an hour from El Rosario to the turn-off, and this is the "fast" section. If he continued south to Cataviña to get fuel and back track, add more time in.

Remember too that area had some recent storms [I was on portions of the road he likely took at the very end of August, and got caught in one of the first of a series of rain from the outer reaches of a hurricane, the roads were a mess] and once off road driving would have been slow with ruts, washouts, and standing pools of water, as such the drive to the location where the truck was found could have been an additional 3 hours. So we are now up to 5-6 hours. And who says you can’t camp at noon? It's not like a hotel with no check-in before 3:00PM; camping is supposed to be about not having any set schedules.

This of course all assumes he went directly to this spot from San Quintin....I have seen nothing to point that this is what happened, as I have seen nothing to point that he spent a couple of days exploring before going here....Then there's the rancher's testimony that the truck was not here in December, and that shoots both theories down.

Taco de Baja - 4-10-2014 at 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr

How much money was in the car? I thought his wallet was missing?



Who knows? I always hide money in several places in my vehicle, some relatively easy to get to, some not; in addition to a "small" amount in my wallet. I usually have several $100, Gary was probably the same.

Mexitron - 4-10-2014 at 10:30 AM

It could have been covered in mud but the the next rains could have washed it off again. The rains would be a better explanation for being stuck---mud is much harder to extricate one's vehicle from than is dry sand...

Mexitron - 4-10-2014 at 10:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Sorry Janene,

But virtually everything except the ranchers observations suggest that the truck has been there 6 months.

1) There are 150 unaccounted for miles on the odometer. That means he would have driven 150 miles in 6 months.

2) the car had tires buried in sand with shovel and rake excavations showing attempts to dig it out.

3) Unfinished food and drinks in car and melted ice.

4) Camera laying on front seat untouched.

5) Money in car and fairly exposed.

Tell me. What abducter in their right mind would leave a car in this condition?



Seems to make the most sense....but so far, this case has been far from sensible.

wilderone - 4-10-2014 at 10:36 AM

"There are 150 unaccounted for miles on the odometer"
What if he went to BOLA after Jardines, and was returning back to Jardines when he pulled off onto the Canoas/El Faro road. for overnight The weather had been bad for a few days -probably not very good whale shark watching at BOLA; a post from 9/9/13 reports 2 inches of rain fell in San Ignacio - if rainfall close to that fell around Catavina, there would be a lot of washouts and maybe arroyos flowing or wet and boggy? It's possible he didn't know the roads to the coast were impassable, yet tried to go, got dissuaded, slept in the car because of the rain. Really need the cameras and memory chips and "arrange by date".

Taco de Baja - 4-10-2014 at 10:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Someone also said the car would have been covered in mud if he had gone towards the coast.


True, but subsequent storms may have washed it off.

However, an examination should be made of the underside once the vehicle is released...That could be very telling. Mud = driven out soon after some rain. No Mud = recently driven out.

After my August trip the underside was coated in mud, the top, not so much because of driving in rain ALL the way back to San Diego.

Skipjack Joe - 4-10-2014 at 10:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr

First of all the 150 miles could have been put on the car by someone else, and we don't know what side trips Gary might have made, so it is not entirely accurate to the mile.



Janene,

The 150 miles covers side roads in baja PLUS 6 days of driving in the US. His odometer was checked 6 days prior to departure. Assuming he went shopping before leaving there is little unaccounted for. How many miles do you put on your car daily per average? This is very strong evidence that the vehicle could not have been driven for 6 months. Gary met his demise most likely within a week of driving south of the border. As LL said several pages ago, this evidence is rock solid. There is very little wiggle room.

So what other possibilities are there?

Gary met his end in a week and then 4 months later the car was driven to the current location, had it's wheels buried in sand, food and drinks were placed in the car, camera put on front seat, and money stashed between the seats?

It sounds preposterous. Yet we are left believing this as truth or that the rancher in fact didn't see the vehicle. To me, with the current inforation, the choice is obvious.

EnsenadaDr - 4-10-2014 at 10:40 AM

If the weather was that bad he could have driven the next hour or so to a town on the main road. I have thought about him going to BOLA too and turning off on his way back. But he wouldn't turn off the road in that kind of weather would he?
Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
"There are 150 unaccounted for miles on the odometer"
What if he went to BOLA after Jardines, and was returning back to Jardines when he pulled off onto the Canoas/El Faro road. for overnight The weather had been bad for a few days -probably not very good whale shark watching at BOLA; a post from 9/9/13 reports 2 inches of rain fell in San Ignacio - if rainfall close to that fell around Catavina, there would be a lot of washouts and maybe arroyos flowing or wet and boggy? It's possible he didn't know the roads to the coast were impassable, yet tried to go, got dissuaded, slept in the car because of the rain. Really need the cameras and memory chips and "arrange by date".

EnsenadaDr - 4-10-2014 at 10:42 AM

Could very well be the rancher is lying...but I don't feel he is. So assuming he is lying, and Gary was stuck, what is the scenario? Where did Gary go?
Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr

First of all the 150 miles could have been put on the car by someone else, and we don't know what side trips Gary might have made, so it is not entirely accurate to the mile.



Janene,

The 150 miles covers side roads in baja PLUS 6 days of driving in the US. His odometer was checked 6 days prior to departure. Assuming he went shopping before leaving there is little unaccounted for. How many miles do you put on your car daily per average? This is very strong evidence that the vehicle could not have been driven for 6 months. Gary met his demise most likely within a week of driving south of the border. As LL said several pages ago, this evidence is rock solid. There is very little wiggle room.

So what other possibilities are there?

Gary met his end in a week and then 4 months later the car was driven to the current location, had it's wheels buried in sand, food and drinks were placed in the car, camera put on front seat, and money stashed between the seats?

It sounds preposterous. Yet we are left believing this as truth or that the rancher in fact didn't see the vehicle. To me, with the current inforation, the choice is obvious.

Skipjack Joe - 4-10-2014 at 10:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr

Did anyone think the reason the Rancher didn't try to drive the car is that he was using the rake and shovel to dig the car out? Why are we assuming it was Gary?



Now that could be a good point. I thought the rancher stated that he had found the shovel and rake and dug dirt. Not that he himself had brought these tools and tried to do it. In fact, when he arrived the battery was dead so digging it out would not make sense for the rancher. So no, I don't believe the rancher was responsible for that.

EnsenadaDr - 4-10-2014 at 10:55 AM

It was confirmed Gary had a rake and a shovel in his vehicle, however, the rancher could have been the one trying to dig the car out.
Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr

Did anyone think the reason the Rancher didn't try to drive the car is that he was using the rake and shovel to dig the car out? Why are we assuming it was Gary?



Now that could be a good point. I thought the rancher stated that he had found the shovel and rake and dug dirt. Not that he himself had brought these tools and tried to do it. In fact, when he arrived the battery was dead so digging it out would not make sense for the rancher. So no, I don't believe the rancher was responsible for that.

Skipjack Joe - 4-10-2014 at 10:55 AM

I don't believe the rancher is lying. Everyone is vouching for the honesty and straightforwardness of the man. There is no reason to question that. After all he called the police and brought all of the evidence to them.

Anyone can make a mistake about not seeing something. I lose my keys 10 times a day and can't find them when I'm looking straight at them. That's why I asked earlier about the exact spot where the car was. If it's on a flat plain like a salt flat (just an example) then the oversight is less likely. But if he drove into an arroyo with a sandy wash lined with mesquite trees and elephant trees then it's more likely he didn't see it. And incidentally, that's the kind of sediment that does bury the tires.

mtgoat666 - 4-10-2014 at 10:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Could very well be the rancher is lying...but I don't feel he is. So assuming he is lying,


perhaps "mistaken or lying" is a better word choice
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
So assuming... Gary was stuck, what is the scenario? Where did Gary go?


highest probability scenario: he started walking out for help, had a medical problem, and perished.

lots of speculation about violent crime, but violent crime is very rare in that remote area

----

most of this debate is pointless. someone just needs to get out there and look around.

EnsenadaDr - 4-10-2014 at 11:03 AM

I highly doubt the rancher doesn't know his land inch by inch for as many years as he has owned it, that's his livelihood.. You are then saying he missed this vehicle on his property for over 5 months? And no sign of Gary?

Mexitron - 4-10-2014 at 11:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Could very well be the rancher is lying...but I don't feel he is. So assuming he is lying,


perhaps "mistaken or lying" is a better word choice
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
So assuming... Gary was stuck, what is the scenario? Where did Gary go?


highest probability scenario: he started walking out for help, had a medical problem, and perished.

lots of speculation about violent crime, but violent crime is very rare in that remote area

----

most of this debate is pointless. someone just needs to get out there and look around.


There is a lot of drug transporting activity out there though...if something happened maliciously, Gary may have had a run in with the wrong people. We have heard trucks at night out there occasionally and have found direct evidence of trafficking. Not likely I would think however---the drug runners want to stay far away from most people.

Skipjack Joe - 4-10-2014 at 11:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
It was confirmed Gary had a rake and a shovel in his vehicle, however, the rancher could have been the one trying to dig the car out.
Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr

Did anyone think the reason the Rancher didn't try to drive the car is that he was using the rake and shovel to dig the car out? Why are we assuming it was Gary?



Now that could be a good point. I thought the rancher stated that he had found the shovel and rake and dug dirt. Not that he himself had brought these tools and tried to do it. In fact, when he arrived the battery was dead so digging it out would not make sense for the rancher. So no, I don't believe the rancher was responsible for that.


Why dig a car out with a dead battery? I supposed he could have jump started it and tried to then dig it out. He doesn't say that but it could have happened. But then why was it towed to the ranch. Why not jump start and drive it back? Were the tires flat? It's been 70 pages. I don't know why it was towed instead of driven. It doesn't seem important. Seems like we're going off on a irrelevant tangent. Many posts on this thread are like that. It's hard to keep focused on good evidence. I suppose a detective like LL never considers anything as wasteful because the truth can pivot on just one piece of information. As someone wrote, nothing is conclusive until Gary is found.

TMW - 4-10-2014 at 11:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
"There are 150 unaccounted for miles on the odometer"
What if he went to BOLA after Jardines, and was returning back to Jardines when he pulled off onto the Canoas/El Faro road. for overnight The weather had been bad for a few days -probably not very good whale shark watching at BOLA; a post from 9/9/13 reports 2 inches of rain fell in San Ignacio - if rainfall close to that fell around Catavina, there would be a lot of washouts and maybe arroyos flowing or wet and boggy? It's possible he didn't know the roads to the coast were impassable, yet tried to go, got dissuaded, slept in the car because of the rain. Really need the cameras and memory chips and "arrange by date".


It's 323 miles from San Quintin to BOLA and back to Catavina.

latina - 4-10-2014 at 11:12 AM

Over the years the navy has found pangas loaded with drugs on the shorelines of Baja waiting for pick-up...so it is possibly a case of wrong place at wrong time. That would be the only explanation for a person hiding a car not to worry about the contents...BUT then why the rake and shovel...it all goes back to Gary himself.

And yes, mtgoat666, why isn't anyone looking for Gary? Until declared deceased he is still a MISSING PERSON....

EnsenadaDr - 4-10-2014 at 11:13 AM

Look at all the millions of dollars and manpower they are spending on the Malaysian Jet, looking for pings. Seemed to me ridulous. But they are making headway. This conversation I think is reconstructing what could have happened and getting to a more believable and credible scenario.
Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
It was confirmed Gary had a rake and a shovel in his vehicle, however, the rancher could have been the one trying to dig the car out.
Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr

Did anyone think the reason the Rancher didn't try to drive the car is that he was using the rake and shovel to dig the car out? Why are we assuming it was Gary?



Now that could be a good point. I thought the rancher stated that he had found the shovel and rake and dug dirt. Not that he himself had brought these tools and tried to do it. In fact, when he arrived the battery was dead so digging it out would not make sense for the rancher. So no, I don't believe the rancher was responsible for that.


Why dig a car out with a dead battery? I supposed he could have jump started it and tried to then dig it out. He doesn't say that but it could have happened. But then why was it towed to the ranch. Why not jump start and drive it back? Were the tires flat? It's been 70 pages. I don't know why it was towed instead of driven. It doesn't seem important. Seems like we're going off on a irrelevant tangent. Many posts on this thread are like that. It's hard to keep focused on good evidence. I suppose a detective like LL never considers anything as wasteful because the truth can pivot on just one piece of information. As someone wrote, nothing is conclusive until Gary is found.

EnsenadaDr - 4-10-2014 at 11:15 AM

Maybe with all the digging the Rancher did, if it was indeed him that was digging, he couldn't get the car to get out of the ditch driving it so he had to tow it. Seems logical to me.

TMW - 4-10-2014 at 11:15 AM

If you go from San Quintin to Punta Canoas, by way of Santa Catarina, to where the car was found it's roughly 140 miles. It would be easy to add another 10 miles around Canoas.

danaeb - 4-10-2014 at 11:20 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
This conversation I think is reconstructing what could have happened and getting to a more believable and credible scenario.
Quote:


And what is that scenario Janene? There are as many scenarios as there are posters on this topic. We are no closer to the answer than we were in September. It's all speculation.

Skipjack Joe - 4-10-2014 at 11:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr

You are then saying he missed this vehicle on his property for over 5 months? And no sign of Gary?



So far as we know nobody has searched the area around the vehicle very stringently for Gary.

He's not going to be near the car. With all of those provisions he would be IN the car.

They should be looking for him in the direction of help or perceived help. Have to put yourself in his situation, think what you would do, and then look in those places.

vgabndo - 4-10-2014 at 11:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
First of all the 150 miles could have been put on the car by someone else, and we don't know what side trips Gary might have made, so it is not entirely accurate to the mile.

Secondly, he could have had food in the car when the car was taken. The abductor wouldn't have to eat the food to prove the car was stolen from Gary.

Did anyone think the reason the Rancher didn't try to drive the car is that he was using the rake and shovel to dig the car out? Why are we assuming it was Gary?

How much money was in the car? I thought his wallet was missing?

I don't laugh at any of your observations so I would appreciate the same respect Vagabundo.

Why then would Gary leave and end up in a place 2 hours later camping? As someone else said there was a much better route to follow for the fish/surf camps on the coast.


Check my posts Doc. First I go by vgabndo, just for clarity. Second. Since I posted (for the second time, on page 46) my willingness to be at the search site in five hours with my 4x4, my quad, my camping gear and my willingness to work, you have posted more than 50 times with bits of generally meaningless conspiracy theories that you have pulled out of your...spare time. Even Lizard Lips, who has shown extremely admirable restraint, has had to ask you to try to get a grip. I find it laughable that on the same day you would post "We'll find Gary, I'm sure of it." and then a short time later: This will "...end up like Amelia Earhart one of the great unsolved mysteries." Then, there is your very astute observation that "Sometimes life is truer than fiction." I'm still laughing, and you can laugh at my two offers to help with the search if you wish.
Thanks for volunteering to join the search (even though LL had to shame you into it.) And, "Lips" you are shining like a diamond man. I'm looking forward to meeting you. Thanks for your work!

Skipjack Joe - 4-10-2014 at 11:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr

Look at all the millions of dollars and manpower they are spending on the Malaysian Jet, looking for pings.



BTW, I've come up with a joke for that.

The Chinese are looking of Ping.

Get it? Ping is the character in Mulan.

All right, all right. Well, I thought it was funny.

EnsenadaDr - 4-10-2014 at 11:33 AM

We need to start working as a team vgabndo, I am sorry you think I am a flake. What do you mean Lizard Lips had to shame me into it? You aren't any closer to the answer than anyone else. That being said, let's stop the verbal insults and get on with the real business of finding Gary. Glad you have all the equipment to help out.
Quote:
Originally posted by vgabndo
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
First of all the 150 miles could have been put on the car by someone else, and we don't know what side trips Gary might have made, so it is not entirely accurate to the mile.

Secondly, he could have had food in the car when the car was taken. The abductor wouldn't have to eat the food to prove the car was stolen from Gary.

Did anyone think the reason the Rancher didn't try to drive the car is that he was using the rake and shovel to dig the car out? Why are we assuming it was Gary?

How much money was in the car? I thought his wallet was missing?

I don't laugh at any of your observations so I would appreciate the same respect Vagabundo.

Why then would Gary leave and end up in a place 2 hours later camping? As someone else said there was a much better route to follow for the fish/surf camps on the coast.


Check my posts Doc. First I go by vgabndo, just for clarity. Second. Since I posted (for the second time, on page 46) my willingness to be at the search site in five hours with my 4x4, my quad, my camping gear and my willingness to work, you have posted more than 50 times with bits of generally meaningless conspiracy theories that you have pulled out of your...spare time. Even Lizard Lips, who has shown extremely admirable restraint, has had to ask you to try to get a grip. I find it laughable that on the same day you would post "We'll find Gary, I'm sure of it." and then a short time later: This will "...end up like Amelia Earhart one of the great unsolved mysteries." Then, there is your very astute observation that "Sometimes life is truer than fiction." I'm still laughing, and you can laugh at my two offers to help with the search if you wish.
Thanks for volunteering to join the search (even though LL had to shame you into it.) And, "Lips" you are shining like a diamond man. I'm looking forward to meeting you. Thanks for your work!

monoloco - 4-10-2014 at 12:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
I highly doubt the rancher doesn't know his land inch by inch for as many years as he has owned it, that's his livelihood.. You are then saying he missed this vehicle on his property for over 5 months? And no sign of Gary?
I'm sure he knows his land well, but it is possible that, at 80 years of age, his memory isn't perfect. I'm 20 years younger and often can't remember the time frame of when I've done something. It's far easier for me to believe that an 80 year old guy's memory is a bit fuzzy than to believe in some far fetched abduction theory.

lizard lips - 4-10-2014 at 01:33 PM

I first want to say that what you are about to read is fact as I know it. I am not accusing any one person, government agency, or group of people. This is just another take that I want to post and you can make up your own mind as to another possibility of Gary’s disappearance.

When I first learned about Gary’s vehicle being found and the talk with the rancher about his not seeing the 4 Runner there in December has been nagging me to no end and reminded me of what I am about to tell you.

Back in the late 90ies the families of two Nevada men who went to Baja to fish and relax hired me to locate them. They were last seen shortly before Thanksgiving at a home in San Miguel having dinner with friends. They told the friends that they were traveling south and would return in time to be back by the holiday to enjoy Thanksgiving with family in Nevada.

Their vehicle was a late model Ford 150 with camping gear and an outboard motor, no boat.

I initially posted flyers everywhere in Ensenada and areas just south of town. I received a call from an Ensenada Policeman who was attached to an outpost in La Mission, just north of Ensenada, who told me he was on patrol and found the exact same vehicle with the same color abandoned in his patrol area. He said he contacted the Federal de Caminos (Mexican Highway Patrol) and they had it towed by a private tow company that is contracted by them to their yard.

I contacted the private tow company and they said the truck had been towed to a Federal de Caminos officer’s private residence. I then contacted the Feds and they would not release any information regarding this transfer and I explained that I didn’t care what they wanted to do with the truck all I wanted was to confirm that the truck was either our guys or not and that could be easily done by checking the Vin number. They still refused.

I told the families what I had learned and within three days I received a long letter, in Spanish, from the office of Senator Harry Reid and apparently this letter was also sent to the Federal de Caminos Department in Mexico City. One day later the head of the Federal de Caminos flew to Ensenada in their private jet and raised holy hell. I wont go any further with what happened but you can imagine.

The vehicle was not the Nevada guys’ truck.

I then drove all the way to Cabo San Lucas posting flyers everywhere, and I mean everywhere. I stopped by all of the offices of every police station and every Mexican Government agency that would be helpful and nothing. No calls from anyone.

When I returned home I received a call from a policeman in Rosario telling me that they had found two dead bodies in an arroyo however one of the bodies was a woman, and was apparently confirmed by a medical examiner. I informed the family of this current piece of info and we both came to the conclusion that this was not our guys’ in that a woman was found. Plus the bodies were so badly decomposed that noting was left except for hair and bones. (Big mistake made by me).

Without going into a lot of detail the bodies were that of our two guys and the “confirmation” that one was a woman that was made by the medical examiner in that the body was found with long hair. I should have followed up when I learned this but discounted it. You learn by your mistakes.

Bajaguy, who was attached with Nevada’s Interpol, came down with a partner and they also went as far as Cabo to search with nothing to report. This is when I met him Bajaguy. He and his partner explained that these two guys families were very connected with state government and even knew Senator Reid. It was also learned that the two guys owned apartment buildings in Nevada and were worth millions, on paper.

I remember sitting in the bar at the Marina Hotel in Ensenada sometime in February or March with one of the guys’ fathers, brother and brother in law. They were in Ensenada to receive the cremated remains. The father seemed low key initially then he looked at me, raised his voice and yelled, WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED? WHY COULDN’T YOU FIND MY SON? I was taken a back, and excused myself and went home. I put myself in his position that night as I laid in bed thinking and cried. I’ll never forget it. It hits me right now remembering this…

In April I received a call from a producer at NBC who told me that he was doing a show about Mexico and wanted my help. He wanted me to go with him to the exact area where the guys’ bodies were found and to give an interview. The producer and his crew came to Ensenada and we all went to Rosario where I contacted the policeman there and enlisted his help in finding the exact location where the bodies were found. The crew filmed and I walked around the arroyo looking for anything that may be related then he wanted me to talk on film. His questions pertained to the missing men and how very dangerous Mexico was and all the crime blah, blah, blah. I did not give him what he wanted because I didn’t think Mexico was any different than the U.S. when it came to camping on the beach or anywhere else. They deleted the entire interview with me. GOOD!

I had been in contact with the head guy at the Ministerio Publico (District Attorney) office in Ensenada and told him that NBC was coming to town and they wanted an interview with him. This contact with him was the very day the NBC crew came to Ensenada and prior to our trip to Rosario. The head guy at the MP office told me he would get back to me.

Two days later when we all returned to Ensenada my wife told me that she received a phone call from the MP office and that they were going to have a meeting at 2 p.m. that day regarding the deaths of the Nevada men. Of course the NBC crew wanted to be there so we all went.

The meeting took place at one of their very large rooms at the MP office and there must have been three hundred people and a long table in front and sitting at the table was the head guy.

This guy started off saying that he first wanted to extend his condolences to the families of the murdered men.

He then went on to say that they have caught a suspect that goes by the nickname “Cilantro” and that he confessed to being at the site where the men were in their sleeping bags and then hitting them with a baseball bat and leaving them there. He said that Cilantro stole their vehicle. He then went onto say that the men had contacted Cilantro earlier that day and told him they wanted to by a large quantity of drugs and because of this Cilantro assumed that they had a large amount of money.

You can imagine how I felt during this meeting and the head guy talking looked at me quite often during his talk to see my reaction I assume.

After the meeting the head guy walked up to me and put his hand out to shake and I did. He looked at me rather strangely not saying a thing but you can take that for what it’s worth.

Anyway after typing all of this I’ll get to the point. I’ve noticed that this time of year there is a lot of Mexico bashing regarding murders and so forth on the television news. It seems more in April and May then any other time of year. Check it out. People in the United States are gearing up for their vacations and it seems that the American news wants vacationers to consider staying in the U.S. to enjoy there vacations and keep the money in the U.S. Of course this is my take.

What seems odd is that the rancher comes forward now and tells me what he found and what he didn’t see in December. I actually believe the rancher and what he tells us makes sense. Do the Mexican authorities want news reports circulating at this time of year about a missing American? Now that the vehicle was found do we just assume that Gary died because of the elements and him walking to find help as we have discussed and actually drove this into the ground with posts or was he murdered and there is a “cover up”?

The tourism industry in Mexico is a ton of cash and how many would decide not to travel to Mexico if this became a big story?

I think there is a lot more to consider with this and we can go on and on with possibilities but this has been in the back of my mind for a long time.

Just wanted to throw this out there and get your reaction.

Again, what I have written is just a theory and in no way am I implicating any one person, government authority, or group of people.

It is what it is….

absinvestor - 4-10-2014 at 02:07 PM

Very interesting. Your post shows that this should be approached without any preconceived idea and no stone left unturned.

lizard lips - 4-10-2014 at 02:11 PM

Of course right after I write the last post I receive an email regarding a news story in "El Mexicano" newspaper here in Ensenada about Garys disappearance.

Below is from the family:

=> God bless us thru this to wherever it must go... Latest UPDATE of help in these publications now coming our way: Today this article is in the El Mexicano newspaper! Next week it will be in BAJA Times, and last week it was in ECOS, their spanish version. Let's hope this close-up photo along with information for diligent, caring people out there will direct him to us, us to him. Please bring some hope to us, nomads, tell us who you can spread this word to and the photo. Knowing Gary as we do, he may be limping along but it doesn't mean he's fallen. Ideas for where he could be surviving are most welcome. We know that It is much easier to think the worst. You've all hung in there with us this far, please hang in a little longer .. with faith and your healthy energy. Thank you, all.

55steve - 4-10-2014 at 02:20 PM

I'm a mechanical sort and experience tells me that the average fully charged battery in a modern vehicle has about a 90 day charge before the voltage drops to the point of not starting the engine - this is due to several low draw systems that are always "on" in modern vehicles.

Also, Gary hopefully set the date/time on his camera. I have forgotten to do this before when the battery goes dead.

bufeo - 4-10-2014 at 02:27 PM

An article re: LL's narrative about the Nevada men can be found HERE

Allen R.

absinvestor - 4-10-2014 at 02:29 PM

LL- an unsettling coincidence- your story regarding some involvement from Senator Reed. Now, after basically nothing happening for 6 months the Pattons receive a call from the State Dept saying that a rep of the State Dept had gone to Guerrero Negro etc. A short time after the State Dept appears to have shown some interest the truck magically appears. Any thoughts on a reward for information and/or body?

lizard lips - 4-10-2014 at 02:55 PM

I have advised the family that reward may not be in the best interest of this investigation. We never did it for the Nevada guys and I really don't think it would be wise here and now for a lot of reasons. A lot of strange things happen when a reward is offered. Maybe Im wrong but I don't think so. Whats your take?

absinvestor - 4-10-2014 at 03:04 PM

I'll defer to your expert opinion. It was just a thought.

latina - 4-10-2014 at 03:24 PM

Is it really a bad idea for the family to be in BC at Easter to start looking for Gary? It is painful to think that no one is searching for him, especially when their note to you sounds like they think he could still be alive...God only knows how that would be possible after 7 months and 9 months by the time they get here.... they could at least be putting up revised flyers and meeting the rancher to see first hand where the truck was found...and the sooner they see what is inside his truck the better...

Hook - 4-10-2014 at 03:50 PM

Many of us who have been on Baja websites for years, remember the incident with the Nevadans.

I feel like I asked you this many years ago but was the vehicle ever located? I seem to remember something about the son of a cop in the area driving it around. Was that "Cilantro"?

Anyway, the only thing I might glean from your story is that the foot-dragging may, indeed, be from a desire to preventpeople from cancelling their Semana Santa plans in Mexico. As I've said before, there is deliberacy in this search delay; for what reason, I dont know. But that's how it feels to me.

chavycha - 4-10-2014 at 04:31 PM

Regarding the camera, the timestamps will likely still be useful, whether or not he set the data/time.

The camera will timestamp the first picture as something like 1/1/2004 00:00. Subsequent pictures will be timestamped accordingly. A picture taken a week later will be 1/8/2004 00:00.

If he took a picture at a location which is known (say, on his way down in early September), even if he didn't set the date/time, the timestamps on subsequent pictures can be used to determine the time lapsed between photos.

Ricardo - 4-10-2014 at 04:58 PM

If the camera battery is still good you could take a picture today and count back as well.

monoloco - 4-10-2014 at 05:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ricardo
If the camera battery is still good you could take a picture today and count back as well.
Most DSLR cameras retain the time and date settings when the battery dies.

Traffic on the San Jose to Canoa Road

Skipjack Joe - 4-10-2014 at 05:08 PM

I was wondering if the people who are familiar with that road could comment on the frequency that vehicles pass on that road.

Could Mexitron, Taco De Baja, Sunman, Woody, or anyone else comment on this.

Does a car pass by every 4 hours, eight hours, once a day, one per 2 days, 3,4,5 days?

It's my understanding that if you're going to San Jose from the hwy you would never be on this road. Similarly, if you're going to Canoa from the hwy you would use a different route. You would only use this road going from San Jose to Canoa or backwards. Is that correct?

PS We're talking September. I'm sure it changes seasonally.

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by Skipjack Joe]

Justbozo - 4-10-2014 at 05:17 PM

I am no sleuth and don’t read mystery novels.

I believe that the rancher plays a large roll in Gary’s disappearance and is unknowingly connected. He is being played for his honesty and generosity.

The large time gap always bothered me, and with the sudden appearance of the 4 runner in undisturbed condition, it was even worse. A small item was exposed lately. The ranchers business.

OK, here we go. Just an outline of my thoughts.
Gary never got out of the San Quintin area.
Gary left Jardines early in the morning heading on his adventure. He makes a stop for maybe breakfast, gas, OJ, ice? This is where it goes sour for Gary. Too much talk. Too much cash. Details unknown, but Gary and the 4 runner never leave the area.

This may not have been the intended outcome of whoever he met. Maybe someone not hardened in this line. The 4 runner is under wraps. People get nervous, lips start to move. How to get rid of a hot gringo car with posters all over town?

Connection for this is made. Ditch it in the boondocks, camping/stuck. Maybe some knowledge of general area Gary was headed, or just surf gear. This is where the rancher comes in and the fact that he has as a business in the San Qintin general area of Baja. The contact has knowledge and connection to the rancher, family/friends maybe 60 years difference in age. Knowing the upstanding nature of the rancher, who better to have find the 4 runner and throw the hounds way off the track.

So, Gary is somewhere around San Quintin, the rancher has no knowledge other than what he has told and the perpetrator has a connection to the rancher.

That’s the way I see it from here, right now.

Mexitron - 4-10-2014 at 05:20 PM

Sometimes you can drive the San Jose road and not see anyone for 3 hours, especially in the old days (hah--ten years ago). Other times you see a few cars. Its a well enough travelled road however that someone would eventually pick you up in a day or two. The road from the highway to Canoas more or less the same. However the connector road from Canoas south to the San Jose is likely less travelled.
Surfers are more likely November to March, and especially at Xmas. I've been out on the coastal road between Canoas and San Jose (not the more inland route used by Gary) and not see ANYONE for days at a time.

Justbozo - 4-10-2014 at 05:28 PM

It's just what I woke up from my siesta with.

Maybe in the back of a delivery truck?

I dunno.

Just another line of thought to pick apart.

Whale-ista - 4-10-2014 at 05:29 PM

Wow... someone who has recently joined the Nomads forum could string these posts together, and have a "Semi-True Detective" novel woven out of the various theories, suppositions, suspicions and speculations posted here.


I'm still hoping Gary shows up with a "stranger than true" story to share that will put all these to rest. If so, there's probably a book deal, if not movie, waiting.
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