BajaNomad

Gary Patton - Updated Jan. 5, 2015

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bajaguy - 4-10-2014 at 05:31 PM

Abs......Senator Reid said and did all the right things (contacted the State Department) on the federal level, but he leaned heavily on people at the state level when we had a Governor of the same political party......and as you know, stuff flows downhill and the case landed on my desk.

Quote:
Originally posted by absinvestor
LL- an unsettling coincidence- your story regarding some involvement from Senator Reed. Now, after basically nothing happening for 6 months the Pattons receive a call from the State Dept saying that a rep of the State Dept had gone to Guerrero Negro etc. A short time after the State Dept appears to have shown some interest the truck magically appears. Any thoughts on a reward for information and/or body?

latina - 4-10-2014 at 05:43 PM

The problem with the Punta San Jose to Punta La Canoa theory is that it was September and even the "graded" dirt roads were virtually impassable, as was testified by a Nomad who was there at the same time Gary disappeared. Fishermen from Las Canoas had the "graded roads" into the beaches blocked to traffic off and on all through the month of September AND Gary's 4runner was only 2wheel drive.
That theory works if something happened to Gary when he tried to go the Punta Baja route, someone kept his truck hidden nearby, and then drove the same route and hid it...BUT there are so many other hiding places...why go that far???

Skipjack Joe - 4-10-2014 at 06:23 PM

What kind of "thief" leaves money in the car?

What kind of thief is that?

What kind of thief leaves a camera in the car?

What am I missing here?

Can anyone answer these simple basic questions? Those with abduction theories.

Please provide scenarios that include decisions to leave these behind. I'm just curious.

latina - 4-10-2014 at 06:59 PM

Skipjack Joe...I agree with you...nothing about this is logical...the only logical conclusion to me is that way back in September Gary met his fate, when he got stuck of the main trail....out of all of the "clues", only the rancher's determination about where he found the truck throws a wrench into logic....

lizard lips - 4-10-2014 at 07:00 PM

More information from the rancher just in:

- The direction the car was facing ? == NORTH (not toward ocean, toward highway)

- The # of coolers (should've been 2)? == YES, two coolers, no water, and a box of food (he would've had breakfast bars, oatmeal, cereal but I am adding these comments)

- The heavy, red metal tool box ? ==He said honestly he does not recall seeing a red metal tool box, but he also is saying he may not have noticed it;

- Any Pillow, blanket in the car? == Pillow and tent were in car, did notice any blanket(s)

- A tent? ==Yes

- Was there a Windshield shade in the front window? A sun protector? ==No window shade in the window when he found it;

- Were there any maps? ==He did not notice any maps, but Garys son says he saw some maps just did not look closely enough to say they were Triple A Baja maps.

latina - 4-10-2014 at 07:06 PM

So maybe he did make it to the beach, and then something happened to him....were the boogie board and the wetsuit in the truck??

lizard lips - 4-10-2014 at 07:09 PM

We are going to have to wait on that one Latina.

latina - 4-10-2014 at 07:16 PM

Thanks LL...I do get it, but for some reason this whole story is just eating away at me...hopefully in May when the family come down they will have some kind of closure...

EnsenadaDr - 4-10-2014 at 07:19 PM

A drug runner with no time to spare...his money will pay off big time with the delivery...a few bucks means nothing to him nor the camera, just dump the vehicle ASAP
Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
What kind of "thief" leaves money in the car?

What kind of thief is that?

What kind of thief leaves a camera in the car?

What am I missing here?

Can anyone answer these simple basic questions? Those with abduction theories.

Please provide scenarios that include decisions to leave these behind. I'm just curious.

lizard lips - 4-10-2014 at 07:29 PM

When the vehicle is searched by the family and the cameras are looked at this will give us a lot but until then we must wait.

As far as them coming down during Easter break I told them that it wouldn't be a good idea. A lot of govt. offices are either closed or employees are on vacation. I remain home during Easter. Way to many people on the road and everything is crowded. I have an assignment in Guadalajara that just came up and they wanted it done next week. I told them that they will have to wait until the 22nd. By then most everyone on vacation will return.

Also I have to explain that the family is not wealthy and don't have a senator in their pocket so this process will be a slow one. Grease turns the wheel and Gary's ex-wife has been contacting everyone and keeps the pressure on. Its nice to see that an ex would do this for her former family. They all get along however and they are also uneducated with the process in Mexico but learning fast. I know if it wasn't for this forum it would be a worse nightmare than what it is right now so keep it up with your thoughts and questions and I, and the family, will do what we can.

lizard lips - 4-10-2014 at 07:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hook
Many of us who have been on Baja websites for years, remember the incident with the Nevadans.

I feel like I asked you this many years ago but was the vehicle ever located? I seem to remember something about the son of a cop in the area driving it around. Was that "Cilantro"?

Anyway, the only thing I might glean from your story is that the foot-dragging may, indeed, be from a desire to preventpeople from cancelling their Semana Santa plans in Mexico. As I've said before, there is deliberacy in this search delay; for what reason, I dont know. But that's how it feels to me.


No hook. Cilantro was not driving it around. I found the truck at a junk yard in San Quintin pretty much stripped.

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by lizard lips]

Mulegena - 4-10-2014 at 07:54 PM

My thoughts are focusing on this, too, and feel it deserves delving further:
On second inquiry we've now found out that the rancher, himself, did not make the call to the Pattons as he speaks no English; a family member actually called on his behalf, probably with him directing the conversation, however.
The rancher commutes between his ranch and Maneadero. Someone else surely lives fulltime on the ranch as caretaker/manager. Perhaps it was this person who initially encountered the car and moved it, not the rancher himself. It's very, very likely he was involved, imo. Who is this person? What part did he play in this? What does he have to say?
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Maybe with all the digging the Rancher did, if it was indeed him that was digging, he couldn't get the car to get out of the ditch driving it so he had to tow it...

Question??

captkw - 4-10-2014 at 08:58 PM

was the check point south of "jadines" aka S.Q. in ops during (top of the hill) sept. and has anyone shown pics at the the gas station at the "CURVE" he,, like all of us HAVE to fill up there and the check point guys do remember things !! my two centavo's..and a big thanks to LL

JoeJustJoe - 4-11-2014 at 12:41 AM

Wow now the 80 year old Mexican rancher is a suspect. Lots of theories and conspiracy theories theories are being floated out and and some of them seem pretty outrageous. I think my tongue-in-cheek remark about a "Texas Chain Saw Massacre" operation and the rancher being in on it, is about in the middle of the road in terms of outrageous theories being floated here.

The simplest and probably the most likely scenario that occurred to Gary is that he got stuck in the sand, and left on foot to find help, but got lost, disorientated, and probably perished in the unforgiven terrain of Baja. People get lost all the time in the US in the mountains and desert and it's almost always just an accident and not foul play. Sure Mexico has some pretty dangerous areas due to Mexicans cartels fighting over drug territory, but we are talking about places like San Quintin and Catavinia that are in the middle of nowhere and unlikely places where Mexican cartels operate, or bad guys hang out.

Lizard Lips as seemed pretty rational and seems to know what he is talking about, but his theory on the US news media putting negative stories about Mexico just in time for spring and summer travel, are a first for me, and sounds pretty farfetched. I do agree that Mexico would like suppress the negative news stories, but the big stories always get out, and really Gary's disappearance probably means very little to the rest of the world, except for his family, and Nomad members. I think there were 22 million tourist in Mexico in 2011 and similar numbers in 2012, and I'm sure 2013 was also a good year, but I haven't seen the number yet. So whatever happened to Gary, it's doubtful it's going to hurt Mexican tourism much, although a few places in Mexico and Baja are already hurting because of the cartel violence, but they're also hurting because some of the places haven't done enough to attract the tourist, but I'm getting off the subject.

There does seem to be a few odd things about the 4-Runner being found, and some of the things the rancher said, but many of those things could be attributed to Gary's odd behavior, like leaving money, and a pair of keys locked in the car, especially since it was indicated Gary was concerned about getting stuff stolen. There is also the fact that Gary would even attempt that drive on a two-wheel drive 4-Runner. That's just crazy!

Of course the whole thing could be staged or somebody else might have been driving the the stolen 4-Runner, and when they got stuck in the sand, they left the truck there and didn't want to be got with any evidence, but then why leave the money? But before I could entertain the more deadly foul play scenarios. I would want to know exactly the kind of "meds" Gary was on, because it would give a clue to possible mental or clouded mental functioning, especially if he was mixing the meds with alcohol.

I also do not see anything wrong with Nomad members who are nearby forming an unofficial search party and just searching the possible locations Gary could have walked to, and leave the official search party and contacting the police to Gary's family when they come down in May.

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by JoeJustJoe]

mtgoat666 - 4-11-2014 at 05:14 AM

Why are the cops (apparently) not investigating? What are the cops covering up? Are cops in on the disappearance?

Why is the family delaying starting search?

chuckie - 4-11-2014 at 05:34 AM

Read the thread

Mulegena - 4-11-2014 at 05:57 AM

Not suggesting the rancher or his ranch person/people are culpable.
Making no theories here. More interviews need to be conducted, I believe.

Suggest investigator/family seek out and discreetly interview the person(s)
living full-time on the ranch and to speak separately once again with the rancher.

mtgoat666 - 4-11-2014 at 06:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chuckie
Read the thread


Where in the thread are cops cleared of being suspects?

If cops are not investigating, that makes me suspect they are involved in the disappearance.

If the cops are hiding information, at a same time they are not investigating,... You connect the dots.

Murder or disappearance is so rare in Catavina, makes me wonder why the cops are not out in force, communicating daily updates to family, etc

absinvestor - 4-11-2014 at 07:33 AM

Skipjack Joe- as to your question about what thief would leave money etc in the car. My answer is a scared thief. The car was heading North away from the beach. Could it be that Gary had a surfing accident and someone not involved in the mishap decided to steal the car and became stuck? Or could someone have murdured Gary, stolen the car but again got stuck. If I was either one of those people and the car got I would panic and leave without any thought of taking valuables. Although not hidden I don't believe the "coins" were out in the open. Personally I believe that something happened to Gary away from where the truck was found but who knows?

lizard lips - 4-11-2014 at 07:44 AM

I know Joe it's pretty far fetched about the bad press as I have posted but I will never forget that producer with NBC and his agenda. He wasn't there intentionally for the Nevada guys story. He made it clear by the questions he asked to bash Mexico. Was it because of tourism? Just a thought thrown out by me but he was peeed because I would not tell him on film that I thought Mexico was dangerous. He was a great interviewer and really didn't speak to me again until we got to the Ministerio Publico that afternoon. The sound guy was Mexican/American and he told me privately that the producer was an ass.

As far as what has recently been addressed regarding the Catavina PD and their lack of investigating I don't know if they have done anything or have been vigilant and scoured the area where the 4 Runner was found. We will know by the end of the month. You must remember that these police officers, I assume, are not well trained and have their own theory of what happened and maybe followed up. Good post Goat!

Also the Ministerio Publico Investigators that were assigned to the case in San Quintin must be contacted. The last time I met with them they told me that there was a Gary sighting south of Guerrero Negro by a police commandant. I called this guy and he told me that it could have been him but his description matched about every other 65 year old gringo. Grey hair, short beard, hat, etc. plus no mention of what vehicle he was driving. As we know the mileage doesn't match a trip to GN.

The ranchers worker? If it was him then why didn't he take everything in the vehicle especially the container of coins between the seats. Will follow up with him when travel is made to the ranch.

SoCalPattonCrew - 4-11-2014 at 08:02 AM

Latest UPDATE of help in these publications now coming our way: Today this article is in the El Mexicano newspaper! Next week it will be in BAJA Times, and last week it was in ECOS, their spanish version. Let's hope this close-up photo along with information for diligent, caring people out there will direct him to us, us to him. Please bring some hope to us, nomads, tell us who you can spread this word to and the photo. Knowing Gary as we do, he may be limping along but it doesn't mean he's fallen. Ideas for where he could be surviving are most welcome. We know that It is much easier to think the worst. You've all hung in there with us this far, please hang in a little longer .. with faith and your healthy energy. Thank you, all.

woody with a view - 4-11-2014 at 08:05 AM

Lizard, do we know if the coins were US or Mex? US coins are worthless in Mex as far as i'm aware.

Hook - 4-11-2014 at 08:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by chuckie
Read the thread


Where in the thread are cops cleared of being suspects?

If cops are not investigating, that makes me suspect they are involved in the disappearance.

If the cops are hiding information, at a same time they are not investigating,... You connect the dots.

Murder or disappearance is so rare in Catavina, makes me wonder why the cops are not out in force, communicating daily updates to family, etc


On the subject of police complicity.........

Whatever police force is in Catavina is certainly inadequate to conduct a search this far from their main beat. And it would leave them unavailable to continue their day-to-day operations, which has to be their first priority. Couple that with the logical conclusion that this person is very likely dead, after all this time, and the priority in their mind becomes very low.

This investigation should be passed to authorities higher up than simply the municipal police, if it is simply a matter of manpower.

Of course it is possible that the local police are aware that there are drug operations in that area. Everyone knows that, except, apparently, Just Joe. And they may feel that this gringo may have run afoul of them and they want no part of asking questions to persons within this organization because they know they have to deal with them in the future. You know, as part of the uneasy "ignorance" that goes on all over Mexico between lower cartel elements and local police. Ignorance born of payments to look the other way at the right time or born of the real fear of retribution. By now, they may have contacted them and gotten an answer that basically says "do nothing" from them.

If Gary wandered into the wrong place at the wrong time, with respect to operations going on in the area, they may have known nothing about his vehicle and valuables. They just wanted no witnesses, period.

I can't say how likely this scenarios are; probably the first one is more likely. But there has to be an explanation for why this isnt being pursued faster. I can't understand why the family must be there to begin conducting a further search by authorities higher up than the locals.

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by Hook]

woody with a view - 4-11-2014 at 08:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I was wondering if the people who are familiar with that road could comment on the frequency that vehicles pass on that road.

Could Mexitron, Taco De Baja, Sunman, Woody, or anyone else comment on this.

Does a car pass by every 4 hours, eight hours, once a day, one per 2 days, 3,4,5 days?

It's my understanding that if you're going to San Jose from the hwy you would never be on this road. Similarly, if you're going to Canoa from the hwy you would use a different route. You would only use this road going from San Jose to Canoa or backwards. Is that correct?

PS We're talking September. I'm sure it changes seasonally.

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by Skipjack Joe]


agree with Mexitron on the various roads and wait times for a vehicle. even in Sept there would be at least a car per day on either road. the road where the truck was found might not see a car for weeks, in my opinion. like i said earlier, even trying to use it as a shortcut (IF YOU DON"T KNOW THE AREA) is risky, especially in a 2wd. a single vehicle, maybe low on fuel and worried about the next place to refuel.... it isn't a road a normal person would turn down to try to find a camp site so close to the beach. if he was heading away from the beach he would know where to back track on foot......

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by woody with a view]

EnsenadaDr - 4-11-2014 at 08:13 AM

I think a reward would definitely help. No bank account activity is not a good sign, especially in Mexico. There are many missing person cases in the US where the Police simply lose interest in investigating. Too much time and manpower, but I have seen cases where the family and others push for reopening the case and the police get involved again. Like Goat mentioned, the squeaky wheel gets the grease. More exposure in local press is good as well. It's a bad situation In a harsh environment.

absinvestor - 4-11-2014 at 08:25 AM

LL commented that he thought that a reward was not a good idea at this time and based on his knowledge and experience I think we should follow his lead. I'm sure if he changes his opinion he will let us know. I would still like to know if Gary's social security checks are still regularly deposited into his bank account.

absinvestor - 4-11-2014 at 08:30 AM

BajaGuy- thanks for your comments on Reids involvement. I just thought it quite a coincidence that a few days after the Pattons received a call from the State Dept that the truck magically appeared.

Ateo - 4-11-2014 at 08:56 AM

and just as a reminder, a video of some of the illegal activity going on in the area:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=PLAcv5GC5_QHJOtXqvdGCMu_li...

BajaGringo - 4-11-2014 at 09:09 AM

Gary was last seen at Jardines. My business partner and others there spoke with Gary at the bar in the restaurant while he was staying at the hotel. They recall him as being extremely chatty and talked about finding some good surf breaks.

The area below Canoas has several spots with historically good (at times) breaks that attract surfers from up north. It is very possible that Gary hung out in that region for a few months just enjoying the remote location and surf. There are a few fish camps in the area and it is easy to get food and water/beer to live on while "hanging out" in a remote spot. We see surfers come down here to our region and do the exact same thing - some for weeks on end.

I know of that rancher and it is highly unlikely to me that he is lying or somehow involved in any of this. He is a good, stand up guy and together with his ranch hands have helped out many in that region who have run into problems over the years. This sounds to be no different.

Thieves would definitely have stripped the truck of any valuable belongings including the battery (which is a very valuable commodity in that region) and just left it or set it afire at most. The whole restaging the vehicle at a different location scanario, leaving everything onboard just does not happen down here.

The perceived lack of police action is completely understandable in that there is no full-time police force in the area. In fact there isn't a police force at all - it's just one guy who is part time and he covers an area extending to hundreds of square miles. He has no on-staff search and rescue team, investigators, photographer, forensics team, or anything like that. He doesn't even have a phone line for God's sake.

I have spent several days in that area and driven on the large network of small, unmarked roads leading in umpteen different directions. It is quite easy to get lost there - even with a map onboard. Based on the info LL has given, I think the most likely scenarios are two possibilities:

1) after getting stuck, Gary set out to look for help and got lost, eventually falling victim to the elements.

2) after getting stuck, Gary set out to look for help and was given a ride by someone who had other than humanitarian intentions.

If he did fall victim of a crime, common sense tells me that it happened away from the vehicle. Thieves down here in such remote areas never leave any loot behind. That is just the reality of the region...

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by BajaGringo]

EnsenadaDr - 4-11-2014 at 09:13 AM

Then Ron, you still haven't answered the question. If he got stuck, then why was the car not seen on the Rancher's property for over 5 months? That is, if you totally believe the Rancher as you say you do. I tend to agree with you about the Rancher. If he was involved he certainly wouldn't draw attention to himself and call the police. He would get rid of the car or completely dismantle it. Only a fool would call the police and incriminate themselves.
Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Gary was last seen at Jardines. My business partner and others there spoke with Gary at the bar in the restaurant while he was staying at the hotel. They recall him as being extremely chatty and talked about finding some good surf breaks.

The area below Canoas has several spots with historically good (at times) breaks that attract surfers from up north. It is very possible that Gary hung out in that region for a few months just enjoying the remote location and surf. There are a few fish camps in the area and it is easy to get food and water/beer to live on while "hanging out" in a remote spot. We see surfers come down here to our region and do the exact same thing - some for weeks on end.

I know of that rancher and it is highly unlikely to me that he is lying or somehow involved in any of this. He is a good, stand up guy and together with his ranch hands have helped out many in that region who have run into problems over the years. This sounds to be no different.

Thieves would definitely have stripped the truck of any valuable belongings including the battery (which is a very valuable commodity in that region) and just left it or set it afire at most. The whole restaging the vehicle at a different location scanario, leaving everything onboard just does not happen down here.

The perceived lack of police action is completely understandable in that there is no full-time police force in the area. In fact there isn't a police force at all - it's just one guy who is part time and he covers an area extending to hundreds of square miles. He has no on-staff search and rescue team, investigators, photographer, forensics team, or anything like that. He doesn't even have a phone line for God's sake.

I have spent several days in that area and driven on the large network of small, unmarked roads leading in umpteen different directions. It is quite easy to get lost there - even with a map onboard. Based on the info LL has given, I think the most likely scenarios are two possibilities:

1) after getting stuck, Gary set out to look for help and got lost, eventually falling victim to the elements.

2) after getting stuck, Gary set out to look for help and was given a ride by someone who had other than humanitarian intentions.

If he did fall victim of a crime, common sense tells me that it happened away from the vehicle. Thieves down here in such remote areas never leave any loot behind. That is just the reality of the region...

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by BajaGringo]


[Edited on 4-11-2014 by EnsenadaDr]

Ateo - 4-11-2014 at 09:16 AM

I believe Ron answered the Dr.'s question when he said,

"It is very possible that Gary hung out in that region for a few months just enjoying the remote location and surf. There are a few fish camps in the area and it is easy to get food and water/beer to live on while "hanging out" in a remote spot".

BajaGringo - 4-11-2014 at 09:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Then Ron, you still haven't answered the question. If he got stuck, then why was the car not seen on the Rancher's property for over 5 months?


Because it wasn't there - he was probably surfing down the entire length of seven sisters over that time. The rancher said the truck wasn't there in December and I believe him. He knows that area like the back of his hand...

Ateo - 4-11-2014 at 09:19 AM

The only issue with the above post is there were many people in the 7 sisters area on the lookout for Gary in that time period, including myself.

If Gary was a chatter, I would've expected a few sightings in that period, but there were none that I'm aware of.

Having said this, out of the hundreds of people/surfers that visit the area in the Winter, how many were aware of Gary's disappearance? Not many, so just providing the other side of my above argument.

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by Ateo]

EnsenadaDr - 4-11-2014 at 09:20 AM

He had no activity on his bank account Ron, and you know and I know people in the area aren't going to let you live off of them. Why would he unnecessarily worry his family and not contact them? He said he would be back in 3 days. He couldn't have called them to let them know he was ok? I don't believe Gary was that kind of a person. I agree with you Ron about the Rancher knowing that area. I have no doubt in my mind about that.
Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Then Ron, you still haven't answered the question. If he got stuck, then why was the car not seen on the Rancher's property for over 5 months?


Because it wasn't there - he was probably surfing down the entire length of seven sisters over that time. The rancher said the truck wasn't there in December and I believe him. He knows that area like the back of his hand...

durrelllrobert - 4-11-2014 at 09:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Gary was last seen at Jardines. My business partner and others there spoke with Gary at the bar in the restaurant while he was staying at the hotel. They recall him as being extremely chatty and talked about finding some good surf breaks.

The area below Canoas has several spots with historically good (at times) breaks that attract surfers from up north. It is very possible that Gary hung out in that region for a few months just enjoying the remote location and surf. There are a few fish camps in the area and it is easy to get food and water/beer to live on while "hanging out" in a remote spot. We see surfers come down here to our region and do the exact same thing - some for weeks on end.

I know of that rancher and it is highly unlikely to me that he is lying or somehow involved in any of this. He is a good, stand up guy and together with his ranch hands have helped out many in that region who have run into problems over the years. This sounds to be no different.

Thieves would definitely have stripped the truck of any valuable belongings including the battery (which is a very valuable commodity in that region) and just left it or set it afire at most. The whole restaging the vehicle at a different location scanario, leaving everything onboard just does not happen down here.

The perceived lack of police action is completely understandable in that there is no full-time police force in the area. In fact there isn't a police force at all - it's just one guy who is part time and he covers an area extending to hundreds of square miles. He has no on-staff search and rescue team, investigators, photographer, forensics team, or anything like that. He doesn't even have a phone line for God's sake.

I have spent several days in that area and driven on the large network of small, unmarked roads leading in umpteen different directions. It is quite easy to get lost there - even with a map onboard. Based on the info LL has given, I think the most likely scenarios are two possibilities:

1) after getting stuck, Gary set out to look for help and got lost, eventually falling victim to the elements.

2) after getting stuck, Gary set out to look for help and was given a ride by someone who had other than humanitarian intentions.

If he did fall victim of a crime, common sense tells me that it happened away from the vehicle. Thieves down here in such remote areas never leave any loot behind. That is just the reality of the region...

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by BajaGringo]

Nice new avatar by the way.

BajaGringo - 4-11-2014 at 09:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ateo
The only issue with the above post is there were many people in the 7 sisters area on the lookout for Gary in that time period, including myself.


That region is quite large and there are thousands of spots where you could set up camp and not easily be seen. You mention that you yourself spent time there, were aware of Gary's disappearance and yet did you at any time then see his truck? We know from the lack of mileage that it was most likely there in the area. I tend to prefer the simple explanations and the simple answer is that he was there.

It was mentioned before that he had cash with him Janene. Folks in the remote fish camps don't charge restaurant prices for their catch. He might have even caught his own fish - did he have a fishing pole and tackle with him?

Skipjack Joe - 4-11-2014 at 09:30 AM

I agree that Baja Gringo's first scenario is most likely true. I'm not sure you could bring enough provisions to Canoa for a 4 month stay in a 4 Runner but I don't know the area. Perhaps there is a small tienda or supplies and water to be bought.

Also, it's unlikely that Gary got lost when seeking help. He was 2km from a road which he had driven on. So it was easy to get to the road and it makes no sense to leave it until a 2nd more traveled road is reached.

I'm really surprised that now, that the location of the vehicle is known, nobody is looking for Gary. I strongly suspect that a search is in progress and we simply have not been informed.

Taco de Baja - 4-11-2014 at 09:33 AM

I agree with Woody and Mexitron that main road to Faro San Jose will have several vehicles per day at all hours of the day and night. I’ve been camped out there both right on the main road (vehicle problems) and just off it, but hidden from view and had vehicles drive by in the dead middle of the night. We often pass at least one or two vehicles going the opposite direction when going to or from the coast in the few hours it take to make the trip. One could extrapolate that as many as 10 or or more vehicles pass on a daily basis. Ranchers, fisherman, surfers, and yes probably even drug runners.

In the early 80s it got way less traffic. I remember one time we came across a poor guy who had gotten 3 flats coming back from buying lots of tomatoes in San Quintin for his wife to can. He had been able to patch all the tires, but had no air pump. Boy was he glad to see us as he had been there for 3 days! Being the patron of the fish camp, we got lots of free longosta over the week.

However, in this day and age, if Gary had troubles he should have been able to get to the main road and within a couple hours someone would have come along.

BajaGringo - 4-11-2014 at 09:35 AM

There are some folks up at Puerto Catarina, a few km north of Canoas that bring in supplies on a regular basis and travel to the more remote camps, taking basic provisions and water on a weekly basis...

BajaGringo - 4-11-2014 at 09:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by durrelllrobert

Nice new avatar by the way.



What can I say? The years have not been kind...

EnsenadaDr - 4-11-2014 at 09:45 AM

Did you say the date of Gary's disappearance it was flooding and raining heavily so would he have avoided the surf camp altogether or just that road he was found off of? Was it raining heavily in San Quintin that day? What I am trying to get out would he have avoided the surf camp or the fish camp because of the weather and panned to go directly to BOLA?
Quote:
Originally posted by Taco de Baja
I agree with Woody and Mexitron that main road to Faro San Jose will have several vehicles per day at all hours of the day and night. I’ve been camped out there both right on the main road (vehicle problems) and just off it, but hidden from view and had vehicles drive by in the dead middle of the night. We often pass at least one or two vehicles going the opposite direction when going to or from the coast in the few hours it take to make the trip. One could extrapolate that as many as 10 or or more vehicles pass on a daily basis. Ranchers, fisherman, surfers, and yes probably even drug runners.

In the early 80s it got way less traffic. I remember one time we came across a poor guy who had gotten 3 flats coming back from buying lots of tomatoes in San Quintin for his wife to can. He had been able to patch all the tires, but had no air pump. Boy was he glad to see us as he had been there for 3 days! Being the patron of the fish camp, we got lots of free longosta over the week.

However, in this day and age, if Gary had troubles he should have been able to get to the main road and within a couple hours someone would have come along.

LancairDriver - 4-11-2014 at 09:46 AM

I would be very surprised, given all of the mysterious and confusing circumstances so far, that there would be any photos stored in camera memory, if in fact there are even any memory storage cards still in the camera.
Inspection of the camera/cameras, will be another very good clue regarding the circumstances involved in his disappearance.

Mulegena - 4-11-2014 at 09:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Quote:
Originally posted by durrelllrobert

Nice new avatar by the way.



What can I say? The years have not been kind...
You look like a guy lives down here in Mulege, Ron... ever'body has his twin, they say.

I want the hippydippy back. I know his twin, too, and he doesn't smoke... tobacco.

Skipjack Joe - 4-11-2014 at 09:55 AM

The main road to San Jose was 7 miles away from Gary and it does seem that he should have reached it and been picked up eventually.

But if he had driven from the Canoa direction he, I think, would not have known how far that road was. Nobody looks at their odometer when leaving an area and then computes how many miles are left to the next road.

In such a case Gary may, as Woody suggests, have tried to backtrac back to Canoa and that would have been undoable.

Others have stated that he had a heart condition. Perhaps that prevented him from reaching the San Jose road, although if he can surf, then he certainly can walk 7 miles. It's really a question of what condition he was in when he finally decided to strike out away from the vehicle.

Skipjack Joe - 4-11-2014 at 10:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr

What I am trying to get out would he have avoided the surf camp or the fish camp because of the weather and panned to go directly to BOLA?



Janene,

Someone, I believe it was TW, pointed out that a trip to BOLA and back to the spot they found him would use more miles than what the odometer indicated were available. He implied that a trip to BOLA was impossible.

Skipjack Joe - 4-11-2014 at 10:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by LancairDriver

I would be very surprised, given all of the mysterious and confusing circumstances so far, that there would be any photos stored in camera memory, if in fact there are even any memory storage cards still in the camera.



If the memory card has been removed from the camera then foul play is almost certain. I suppose that's obvious.

willardguy - 4-11-2014 at 10:30 AM

my take. gary wasn't an avid surfer, probably not an avid fisherman, probably not an avid camper. Gary was an avid socializer. If he was like me he could have camped alone for about a day before he said screw this and hit the cantina for beers and conversation.
Gary was never at punta canoas, no way in the TWOrunner with those tires. we were there for a week(the week that gary went missing) in a 1st generation 4runner thats the most capable 4WD you can imagine, and IT was iffy. everyone seems to be an expert on the traffic patterns out there, well the week we were there I doubt we saw two cars.
someone brought up gary may have been out at punta baja, or maybe san carlos, very possible, anyone ask around or leave flyers?

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by willardguy]

EnsenadaDr - 4-11-2014 at 10:31 AM

I don't discount that Skipjack. I do however, want to discount the possibility that he headed to Canoas and that he was headed to BOLA if the weather was that bad. I still think he picked someone up because he liked company and this was the first time he was traveling solo. Was it at the fish camp or surf spot? Was it at the gas station/OXXO or whatever? Was it on the main highway?
Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr

What I am trying to get out would he have avoided the surf camp or the fish camp because of the weather and panned to go directly to BOLA?



Janene,

Someone, I believe it was TW, pointed out that a trip to BOLA and back to the spot they found him would use more miles than what the odometer indicated were available. He implied that a trip to BOLA was impossible.

fdt - 4-11-2014 at 10:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hook

Anyway, the only thing I might glean from your story is that the foot-dragging may, indeed, be from a desire to preventpeople from cancelling their Semana Santa plans in Mexico. As I've said before, there is deliberacy in this search delay; for what reason, I dont know. But that's how it feels to me.


Two days ago the State Secretary of Tourism asked the media not to publish negative news:

http://www.afntijuana.info/informacion_general/26697_pide_no...

Agregó que las noticias negativas “si salen tantas veces perjudican el trabajo de promoción turística” y que esto terminaría afectando a la ciudad; ejemplificó que de un incidente que se registra al reproducirlo diez veces en los medios, da la percepción al exterior de que fueron 10 incidentes y así en lo consiguiente.

Esta reproducción ‘viral’ hacia el extranjero, retomado por prensa extranjera estaría afectando en su opinión “más que el crimen organizado”, y costando más al Estado en materia de disposición de recursos para contrarrestar su efecto.

Translation
He added that negative news "if it comes out so many times, undermines the work of tourism promotion" and that this would end up affecting the city; exemplified by an incident that is published,  when you republish it ten times in the media, it gives the perception abroad that were 10 incidents and so on.

This 'viral' reproduction abroad, taken up by foreign media would affect in his opinion "more than organized crime" and would cost more to the State's available resources to counter its effect.

Mexitron - 4-11-2014 at 10:33 AM

What if Gary went to Canoas after SQ and got in with the "wrong" crowd (see Ateo's video---that's the Canoas area) and had to flee suddenly....if he thought he was being chased it would explain why the truck was found in a remote spot---he was TRYING to hide. Maybe the rains came and he couldn't extricate himself.....?

lizard lips - 4-11-2014 at 10:42 AM

That video has my head spinning. These guys are completely nuts! If Gary saw something he shouldn't is one thing but then again we have to come back to the rancher and his observations in December. Many have questioned the rancher because of his age and the possibility of him just being confused. He was adamant and again, I believe him. This is key information and should not be discounted.

EnsenadaDr - 4-11-2014 at 10:44 AM

There are two camps this thread is divided into: one believes that the Rancher is telling the truth and knows the property like the back of his hand. The other group believes firmly that the Rancher either was so ignorant of the car being in the arroyo or he is lying. If you believe the Rancher is telling the truth then Gary was somewhere else for 5 months. But without contacting the family which is highly unlikely or being at the fish camp with no bank account activity whatsoever, which I find hard to believe after 5 months he was living on his cash in his pocket. After WillardGuy's recount, I doubt he went to the coast in those weather conditions. The people that believe the Rancher and the people that think he is either lying don't trust his judgment or awareness of the car being on his property will never reconcile.

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by EnsenadaDr]

TMW - 4-11-2014 at 11:01 AM

Why would the rancher lie? Since he reported it to the police he had nothing to gain.

Mexitron - 4-11-2014 at 11:02 AM

So if Gary did get stuck after trying to hide out, then went for help and the bad guys found him out on the road, that my explain how the truck was still "intact"...the bad guys didn't vandalize it because they didn't know where it was. If the rancher was mistaken (NOT lying) about not seeing the truck then there is something of a continuity with the story. Another idea anyway.

Justbozo - 4-11-2014 at 11:03 AM

EnsenadaDr

And that is the thrust of my post that he never got out of San Quintin!

The camera will bare this out.

EnsenadaDr - 4-11-2014 at 11:05 AM

I never considered that, but you have a point there.
Quote:
Originally posted by Justbozo
EnsenadaDr

And that is the thrust of my post that he never got out of San Quintin!

The camera will bare this out.

DENNIS - 4-11-2014 at 11:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TW
Why would the rancher lie? Since he reported it to the police he had nothing to gain.


I doubt he raced to the phone after he, or his people, came across the car. People here, especially those with a bunch to lose, think long and hard before they ally themselves with the police. They know how that could turn around on them as well as the high cost it could have for dealing with an agency known for extortion. Aside from personal relationships, the Mexican people don't generally think of the police as friends.

YES, DENNIS

Gypsy Jan - 4-11-2014 at 11:50 AM

What you said.

GJ

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by Gypsy Jan]

EnsenadaDr - 4-11-2014 at 12:06 PM

Now this isn't CSI or New York Dennis. I loved Ron's description of the Catavina police. A sort of Mexican Andy Griffith in Baja instead of Mayberry. He is judge, investigator, police officer all rolled into one. No manpower, no phone even. I doubt the rancher is afraid of him. Being in such a small and sparsely populated area, he probably is even the best of friends with him going way back.

absinvestor - 4-11-2014 at 12:07 PM

To BajaGringo and Ateo and others who somehow believe that Gary might have been hanging out, surfing or whatever (for several months) I believe you are on the wrong track. First Gary was not a loner but most importantly as Ensenada Dr pointed out it would have been totally out of character and just plain rude to go months without communicating with family. The family reported him missing within days of him checking out of Jardines which certainly indicates that in the past he kept in contact. Also if I remember correctly there was an important wedding that he missed. Some travelers take more money to Mexico than they should but how many would take 6 months worth- especially someone like Gary who was accustomed to using ATM's in Mexico. It is my understanding that Gary's source of income was his social security checks. Why would there be no withdrawals of 6 months of social security checks.

Ateo - 4-11-2014 at 12:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Quote:
Originally posted by Ateo
The only issue with the above post is there were many people in the 7 sisters area on the lookout for Gary in that time period, including myself.


That region is quite large and there are thousands of spots where you could set up camp and not easily be seen. You mention that you yourself spent time there, were aware of Gary's disappearance and yet did you at any time then see his truck? We know from the lack of mileage that it was most likely there in the area. I tend to prefer the simple explanations and the simple answer is that he was there.


Yep, I didn't see any sign of Gary (December) at about 4 different surf spots, or the roads leading in and out to those spots. You are correct, there are thousands of spots to set up camp and not be seen. But, not many people choose to camp 10 miles inland, say in an arroyo (where they wouldn't be seen), for instance, especially if they're surfing.

Most tend to flock to the usual spots, with a great ocean view, camping on a cliff, with fishing, overlooking the ocean. To be in that area and out of sight for like 5 months would be very hard to do. That's a ton of H20 and supplies to haul in.

I also agree that the lack of mileage would put him in the area, and not BOLA for instance. I believe he was there. Where - we don't know!

The place is pretty desolate for sure. The last time I went into Canoas we didn't see any other surfers the entire 4 day trip. We saw some fish camps and fishermen, like the ones in the video link I posted. I believe Gary was out there, I just don't think he could've been out there for 5-6 months (estimate from when he left to the time his 4 runner was found) and not have made some friends, been spotted by some Nomads, some Baja 1000 teams, or the random military hummers.

All just speculation on my part. =)

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by Ateo]

absinvestor - 4-11-2014 at 12:18 PM

JustBozo-You may be correct- it has been indicated that Gary was an active picture taker. He would have had lots of photo opportunities while at the beach or..........Can't wait to see what is on that second camera.

Ateo - 4-11-2014 at 12:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by absinvestor
To BajaGringo and Ateo and others who somehow believe that Gary might have been hanging out, surfing or whatever (for several months) I believe you are on the wrong track.


I ABSOLUTLEY don't think Gary was out there hanging out for several months. No way!!!! Did I say that previously?

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by Ateo]

DENNIS - 4-11-2014 at 12:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Now this isn't CSI or New York Dennis. I loved Ron's description of the Catavina police. A sort of Mexican Andy Griffith in Baja instead of Mayberry. He is judge, investigator, police officer all rolled into one. No manpower, no phone even. I doubt the rancher is afraid of him. Being in such a small and sparsely populated area, he probably is even the best of friends with him going way back.


If there was evidence, or even an inclination of foul play, the country bumpkin cop would be down the avenue immediately and the state police would take over. Mr. Ranchero doesn't want anything to do with that. They would not be his carnales.

EnsenadaDr - 4-11-2014 at 12:26 PM

Wanna make a bet Dennis that Mr. Ranchero and the country policia are fast friends? Sort of like you and the head of the La Joya Fire Department?
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
Now this isn't CSI or New York Dennis. I loved Ron's description of the Catavina police. A sort of Mexican Andy Griffith in Baja instead of Mayberry. He is judge, investigator, police officer all rolled into one. No manpower, no phone even. I doubt the rancher is afraid of him. Being in such a small and sparsely populated area, he probably is even the best of friends with him going way back.


If there was evidence, or even an inclination of foul play, the country bumpkin cop would be down the avenue immediately and the state police would take over. Mr. Ranchero doesn't want anything to do with that. They would not be his carnales.

LancairDriver - 4-11-2014 at 12:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by absinvestor
JustBozo-You may be correct- it has been indicated that Gary was an active picture taker. He would have had lots of photo opportunities while at the beach or..........Can't wait to see what is on that second camera.


If I were a betting man, my money would be on the camera memory being blank or missing, changing the direction of most of the thread speculation.

Skipjack Joe - 4-11-2014 at 12:37 PM

The theory of Gary spending several months at Canoa was brought up as a way of explaining the vehicle suddenly appearing at it's current location 4+ months after Gary left - showing up without new miles.

It sounds plausible except that now Ateo is stating he couldn't have been there for that long without being seen. So either he wasn't seen in the San Jose / Canoa area or the rancher didn't see the truck. Are there any other plausible theories - theories that don't involve abduction or scheming police and ranchers?

Hopefully the camera will provide some/all the answers.

What's taking so long in getting these images?
Who has ownership of the camera now?
Who has looked at them so far?

JoeJustJoe - 4-11-2014 at 12:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hook
Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by chuckie
Read the thread


Where in the thread are cops cleared of being suspects?

If cops are not investigating, that makes me suspect they are involved in the disappearance.

If the cops are hiding information, at a same time they are not investigating,... You connect the dots.

Murder or disappearance is so rare in Catavina, makes me wonder why the cops are not out in force, communicating daily updates to family, etc


On the subject of police complicity.........

Whatever police force is in Catavina is certainly inadequate to conduct a search this far from their main beat. And it would leave them unavailable to continue their day-to-day operations, which has to be their first priority. Couple that with the logical conclusion that this person is very likely dead, after all this time, and the priority in their mind becomes very low.

This investigation should be passed to authorities higher up than simply the municipal police, if it is simply a matter of manpower.

Of course it is possible that the local police are aware that there are drug operations in that area. Everyone knows that, except, apparently, Just Joe. And they may feel that this gringo may have run afoul of them and they want no part of asking questions to persons within this organization because they know they have to deal with them in the future. You know, as part of the uneasy "ignorance" that goes on all over Mexico between lower cartel elements and local police. Ignorance born of payments to look the other way at the right time or born of the real fear of retribution. By now, they may have contacted them and gotten an answer that basically says "do nothing" from them.

If Gary wandered into the wrong place at the wrong time, with respect to operations going on in the area, they may have known nothing about his vehicle and valuables. They just wanted no witnesses, period.

I can't say how likely this scenarios are; probably the first one is more likely. But there has to be an explanation for why this isnt being pursued faster. I can't understand why the family must be there to begin conducting a further search by authorities higher up than the locals.

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by Hook]


Hook I would like to be enlightened about the Mexican cartel activity in Catavina which looks to be in the middle of nowhere in the Baja Hot Desert, although I understand they have a nice motel , cave paintings, and rock formations. I understand there is Mexican cartel activity in many states and towns in Mexico, and in certain areas of Baja, like Tijuana and Rosarito where the US State Department says to exercise caution especially when traveling at night, and I'm really familiar with places in Tijuana where drugs sales are sometimes openly sold and then we have places like San Lucas and La Paz where there is No advisory is in effect, and I'm pretty sure Catavina there would be no advisory in Catavina, and I can't even find past news articles about Mexican cartel drug activity in Catavina. Now in San Quintin there are a few stories about cartel activity and a major farm operation a few years back.

But according to numerous sources about 80 % to 90% of the homicides in Mexico involve Mexican cartel activity or involve drugs in some way. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but gringo or American tourist getting killed in Mexico is really small and many of those that are killed die in things such as car accidents, and sadly the few Americans citizens that are killed, are also sometimes tied in to selling or using drugs in Mexico.

So if Gary happened to stumble upon a cartel operation. Would it be such a big deal in a town with a part time cop? Why not pay off the cops? If anything I would think Gary might have asked a drug runner for a Marijuana joint? Are you going to tell me that a 64 year old man who still surfs, is on meds, and enjoys alcohol doesn't like the occasionally "mota" therapeutic relaxer?

If you're going to create a scenario where Gary was abducted or killed by Mexican cartel members because he may have stumbled on some clandestine drug operation, or perhaps he refused to be a mule for the cartel. I would think in this case the more likely scenario based on past homicide stories in the newspapers would be that Gary himself was up to his eyeballs with the Mexicans cartels, because really that would make more sense, however I don't believe this either, and I believe Gary has a clean record in the USA, but don't ask me how I might know this.

I'm just amazed at all the finger pointing, when cases of missing persons go on all the time, and the places where people go missing in isolated places. It's usually an accident caused in part by the victims lack of experience, not being property prepared, and sometimes just dumb luck.

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by JoeJustJoe]

BajaNomad - 4-11-2014 at 12:46 PM

All addressed previously. Photos exist. We'll know more details when the family can get back down there in May.
Quote:
Originally posted by lizard lips

The camera was inspected Gary's son when they initially saw the SUV at the Catavina Police impound yard and his son turned the camera on and saw the photo. The photo was a picture of a little memorial that was placed on the highway where apparently an accident occurred and the family of the victim constructed it. You all have seen plenty of these. My thoughts are maybe Gary inserted this chip after he used up another one. Who knows and we won't know until the camera is returned and all of the photos are viewed.

Pompano - 4-11-2014 at 12:55 PM

So many fine people all interested in one thing...finding the missing Gary. Good contributions, all! Let's pray for a solution soon.

Different minds make for some great mystery solving...and reading.


BajaNomad - 4-11-2014 at 01:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lizard lips

The cameras are still with the police and will be returned when the family goes down the first part of May.

BajaNomad - 4-11-2014 at 01:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lizard lips

I don't why the police even let the boys see the camera let alone view what they did... The Tijuana American Embassy has been in touch with the family and they contacted the family indicating that the vehicle has been released so they can pick it up anytime... Just a waiting game right now.

BajaNomad - 4-11-2014 at 01:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lizard lips
For all of you here posting and asking really great questions, I and the Pattons Thank You Mucho!

I must ask though if you are going to ask a question and have not read all of the posts, and there are about three hours of reading, to please start from the beginning and educate yourself with everything that has been said. I know it's a lot but I will be here answering all day long regarding questions that either have already been asked or were confirmed earlier.

I'm not attempting be a jerk but I'm getting really tired of going through everything three times. I hope you can appreciate what I am asking.

Thanks Guys!

danaeb - 4-11-2014 at 01:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by LancairDriver
Quote:
Originally posted by absinvestor
JustBozo-You may be correct- it has been indicated that Gary was an active picture taker. He would have had lots of photo opportunities while at the beach or..........Can't wait to see what is on that second camera.


If I were a betting man, my money would be on the camera memory being blank or missing, changing the direction of most of the thread speculation.


I can't see our suspects (whoever they are) taking the time to remove the memory cards but leaving everything else intact.


[Edited on 4-11-2014 by danaeb]

BajaNomad - 4-11-2014 at 01:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lizard lips

When the vehicle is searched by the family and the cameras are looked at this will give us a lot but until then we must wait.

As far as them coming down during Easter break I told them that it wouldn't be a good idea. A lot of govt. offices are either closed or employees are on vacation. I remain home during Easter. Way to many people on the road and everything is crowded. I have an assignment in Guadalajara that just came up and they wanted it done next week. I told them that they will have to wait until the 22nd. By then most everyone on vacation will return.

Also I have to explain that the family is not wealthy and don't have a senator in their pocket so this process will be a slow one. Grease turns the wheel and Gary's ex-wife has been contacting everyone and keeps the pressure on. Its nice to see that an ex would do this for her former family.

BajaNomad - 4-11-2014 at 01:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo

Gary was last seen at Jardines. My business partner and others there spoke with Gary at the bar in the restaurant while he was staying at the hotel. They recall him as being extremely chatty and talked about finding some good surf breaks.

...I know of that rancher and it is highly unlikely to me that he is lying or somehow involved in any of this. He is a good, stand up guy and together with his ranch hands have helped out many in that region who have run into problems over the years. This sounds to be no different.

...The perceived lack of police action is completely understandable in that there is no full-time police force in the area. In fact there isn't a police force at all - it's just one guy who is part time and he covers an area extending to hundreds of square miles. He has no on-staff search and rescue team, investigators, photographer, forensics team, or anything like that. He doesn't even have a phone line for God's sake.

BajaNomad - 4-11-2014 at 01:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lizard lips

More information from the rancher just in:

- The direction the car was facing ? == NORTH (not toward ocean, toward highway)



I'm uncertain how relevant this might actually be - because of the vehicle having been found in an arroyo off the through road. The vehicle was likely either facing in, or facing out of, the arroyo - which would not indicate whether he was heading into or out of Canoas.

Also, I'm not seeing any indication by anyone of the family's question (twice stated):

If Gary is still alive, where do you think he might be?


Thoughts?

Thanks.

BajaNomad - 4-11-2014 at 01:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SoCalPattonCrew

Ideas for where he could be surviving are most welcome.

Ateo - 4-11-2014 at 01:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaNomad
Quote:
Originally posted by SoCalPattonCrew

Ideas for where he could be surviving are most welcome.


He could be surviving anywhere, but probably not in heavily flyered areas. He could be in Guatemala for all we know, or Mainland Mex. He could be living in Ensenada somewhere. La Paz. Cabo. Large areas where you could hide out/not be noticed. The possibilities are infinite. He could be anywhere. Let's hope he is.

Skipjack Joe - 4-11-2014 at 02:06 PM

Ideas about where he may be if still alive? That's a hard one. Ideas:

1) He was picked up on one of those roads by a rancher and is being nursed back to health.

2) He is being held hostage and is intended to be used to get ransom.

If not already done then the surrounding ranches should all be visited and it's people interviewed. Now that the vehicle has been found the search should concentrate on this small area. I guess all of this is pretty obvious.

BajaNomad - 4-11-2014 at 02:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ateo

Large areas where you could hide out/not be noticed. The possibilities are infinite. He could be anywhere.



Remember, unless he's found another financial source, he's only working off whatever cash he took with him. If I recall correctly, the family long-ago indicated they felt he could go quite a while camping on a remote beach. However his camping gear was apparently in the vehicle. So.....

:?:

absinvestor - 4-11-2014 at 02:27 PM

Ateo- my comment addressed to you and BajaGringo was in response to your comment on 4-11@416pm where you said "I believe Ron answered the Dr's question when he said it is possible Gary hung out in that region for a few months just enjoying the remote location and surf etc." From your later posts it is obvious that you were not agreeing with Ron but only clarifying to the Dr that Ron had already answered the Dr's question. My mistake for including your name.

Ateo - 4-11-2014 at 02:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by absinvestor
Ateo- my comment addressed to you and BajaGringo was in response to your comment on 4-11@416pm where you said "I believe Ron answered the Dr's question when he said it is possible Gary hung out in that region for a few months just enjoying the remote location and surf etc." From your later posts it is obvious that you were not agreeing with Ron but only clarifying to the Dr that Ron had already answered the Dr's question. My mistake for including your name.


My mistake for not pushing the "quote" button on the Dr.'s post to better clarify what the heck I was saying. =)

Taco de Baja - 4-11-2014 at 02:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoe
Hook I would like to be enlightened about the Mexican cartel activity in Catavina which looks to be in the middle of nowhere in the Baja Hot Desert, although I understand they have a nice motel , cave paintings, and rock formations. I understand there is Mexican cartel activity in many states and towns in Mexico, and in certain areas of Baja, like Tijuana and Rosarito where the US State Department says to exercise caution especially when traveling at night, and I'm really familiar with places in Tijuana where drugs sales are sometimes openly sold and then we have places like San Lucas and La Paz where there is No advisory is in effect, and I'm pretty sure Catavina there would be no advisory in Catavina, and I can't even find past news articles about Mexican cartel drug activity in Catavina. Now in San Quintin there are a few stories about cartel activity and a major farm operation a few years back.
[Edited on 4-11-2014 by JoeJustJoe]


A number of years ago there was a very large drug bust on the road a between El Rosario and Cataviña. It was only about a mile and a half north of Hwy -1 (near KM 141). There was a 300 acre MJ growing operation at this location; to put that in perspective, that's almost a square mile in size! The plowed field is even visible on Google Earth, it's fallow and brown but you can see it if you know where to look. The GE image likely predates the entire 300 acre farm, but there is some plowing of less than 300 acres in evidence in the image.

Read about it here: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304521304576446441269265276

If you don’t trust my link, or want other sources, search for “Mexico’s largest marijuana farm”. It's tough finding sources to news article about these remote areas because even the articles won’t name Cataviña by name since most people don't even know where that is. For example, most of the articles on this 300 acre farm reference "El Rosario" as the location, although it's really closer to Cataviña. And I’ll bet many people won’t even know the location of El Rosario. That "major farm operation” you mention is probably really this one in Cataviña, but the writer tossed in "San Quintin" as more people might know where that is.

Also, not everything being transported by pangas and pickups in and out of these remote "fish camps" is fish. :light:

Sometimes being in the "middle of nowhere" is a good thing for the cartels.

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by Taco de Baja]

vgabndo - 4-11-2014 at 03:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoe
Quote:
Originally posted by Hook
Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by chuckie
Read the thread


Where in the thread are cops cleared of being suspects?

If cops are not investigating, that makes me suspect they are involved in the disappearance.

If the cops are hiding information, at a same time they are not investigating,... You connect the dots.

Murder or disappearance is so rare in Catavina, makes me wonder why the cops are not out in force, communicating daily updates to family, etc


On the subject of police complicity.........

Whatever police force is in Catavina is certainly inadequate to conduct a search this far from their main beat. And it would leave them unavailable to continue their day-to-day operations, which has to be their first priority. Couple that with the logical conclusion that this person is very likely dead, after all this time, and the priority in their mind becomes very low.

This investigation should be passed to authorities higher up than simply the municipal police, if it is simply a matter of manpower.

Of course it is possible that the local police are aware that there are drug operations in that area. Everyone knows that, except, apparently, Just Joe. And they may feel that this gringo may have run afoul of them and they want no part of asking questions to persons within this organization because they know they have to deal with them in the future. You know, as part of the uneasy "ignorance" that goes on all over Mexico between lower cartel elements and local police. Ignorance born of payments to look the other way at the right time or born of the real fear of retribution. By now, they may have contacted them and gotten an answer that basically says "do nothing" from them.

If Gary wandered into the wrong place at the wrong time, with respect to operations going on in the area, they may have known nothing about his vehicle and valuables. They just wanted no witnesses, period.

I can't say how likely this scenarios are; probably the first one is more likely. But there has to be an explanation for why this isnt being pursued faster. I can't understand why the family must be there to begin conducting a further search by authorities higher up than the locals.

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by Hook]


Hook I would like to be enlightened about the Mexican cartel activity in Catavina which looks to be in the middle of nowhere in the Baja Hot Desert, although I understand they have a nice motel , cave paintings, and rock formations. I understand there is Mexican cartel activity in many states and towns in Mexico, and in certain areas of Baja, like Tijuana and Rosarito where the US State Department says to exercise caution especially when traveling at night, and I'm really familiar with places in Tijuana where drugs sales are sometimes openly sold and then we have places like San Lucas and La Paz where there is No advisory is in effect, and I'm pretty sure Catavina there would be no advisory in Catavina, and I can't even find past news articles about Mexican cartel drug activity in Catavina. Now in San Quintin there are a few stories about cartel activity and a major farm operation a few years back.

But according to numerous sources about 80 % to 90% of the homicides in Mexico involve Mexican cartel activity or involve drugs in some way. I don't have the numbers in front of me, but gringo or American tourist getting killed in Mexico is really small and many of those that are killed die in things such as car accidents, and sadly the few Americans citizens that are killed, are also sometimes tied in to selling or using drugs in Mexico.

So if Gary happened to stumble upon a cartel operation. Would it be such a big deal in a town with a part time cop? Why not pay off the cops? If anything I would think Gary might have asked a drug runner for a Marijuana joint? Are you going to tell me that a 64 year old man who still surfs, is on meds, and enjoys alcohol doesn't like the occasionally "mota" therapeutic relaxer?

If you're going to create a scenario where Gary was abducted or killed by Mexican cartel members because he may have stumbled on some clandestine drug operation, or perhaps he refused to be a mule for the cartel. I would think in this case the more likely scenario based on past homicide stories in the newspapers would be that Gary himself was up to his eyeballs with the Mexicans cartels, because really that would make more sense, however I don't believe this either, and I believe Gary has a clean record in the USA, but don't ask me how I might know this.

I'm just amazed at all the finger pointing, when cases of missing persons go on all the time, and the places where people go missing in isolated places. It's usually an accident caused in part by the victims lack of experience, not being property prepared, and sometimes just dumb luck.

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by JoeJustJoe]


http://colectivopericu.net/2014/01/31/llegaron-los-caballero... They are in beautiful downtown Vizcaino.

And just today, the news... http://vizcainohoy.com/index.php/policiaca/item/4230-pgr-y-s...

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by vgabndo]

EnsenadaDr - 4-11-2014 at 03:45 PM

The obvious is: Gary was a talker, Gary was a nice guy. He loved people. He got involved with the wrong people.

Somebody in that very small community has to know what happened to him. The key is to find out who, where and why.

DENNIS - 4-11-2014 at 03:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
The obvious is: He got involved with the wrong people.



Really??

ooops....Frank already voiced that sentiment....and more.



.

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by DENNIS]

msteve1014 - 4-11-2014 at 03:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
The obvious is: He got involved with the wrong people.



You are still just guessing, but stating things as if they were facts.

Hook - 4-11-2014 at 03:55 PM

vgabundo, this isnt occuring in Catavina. It's towards the coast. Catavina apparently has jurisdiction over it but it closer to areas know for smuggling operations.

You have looked at the maps indicating where the car was found, havent you?

Taco de Baja - 4-11-2014 at 03:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
The obvious is: He got involved with the wrong people.



Really??


X2! :no:

DENNIS - 4-11-2014 at 04:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by msteve1014
Quote:
Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
The obvious is: He got involved with the wrong people.



You are still just guessing, but stating things as if they were facts.


:lol::lol: It fits well with the other 75 pages.:lol::lol:

msteve1014 - 4-11-2014 at 04:01 PM

Half of the guesses seem to come from Ensenada.

Spanish Direct translation of first article

durrelllrobert - 4-11-2014 at 04:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by vgabndo


http://colectivopericu.net/2014/01/31/llegaron-los-caballero... They are in beautiful downtown Vizcaino.

And just today, the news... http://vizcainohoy.com/index.php/policiaca/item/4230-pgr-y-s...

[Edited on 4-11-2014 by vgabndo]


The Knights Templar arrived BCS!

Posted on January 31, 2014| 78 comments



◾SE installed in the North Pacific
◾;Desde December there are accounts in the site settings
◾Mataron to the former Chief of PLAZA de Vizcaíno
◾SE unleashes the hunt against LOS MICHOACANOS
◾Policia Ministerial and State police open front

2 1 templariosEl Vizcaino, B.C.S-Knights of new account heats the square in this region that includes all of the communities of the North Pacific area and the city of Guerrero Negro, since now is the poster of the Knights TEMPLAR and intends to settle in Baja California Sur.

According to information published in its edition of the weekly newspaper ZETA and began to circulate as of today in the city of Tijuana, cells of that cartel since December have been installed in VIZCAINO, who is now his base of operations for drug trafficking.

As you will be recalled, the past eight December was found the corpse of which identified as Chief of this place, identified as Iván Villavicencio Arce "El Taco", which was executed to death with weapons caliber 45 and goat Horn.

Cites the publication since then a RAID of Knights TEMPLAR is being in the Northern Pacific, to seize 2 - 1 vizcaino henry froylanventa of drugs through wrongfully that already gave the first clues about which now is has erected as the new head of square, identified with the nickname of the BUZZARD and name Henry Froilan Rojas Ramirezoriginally from Apatzingan.

The data provided by wrongfully newly captured to those who know them as LOS MICHOACANOS, know that they are members of a cell of the Knights TEMPLAR who infiltrated the region as agricultural workers, due to the pressure now exerted in their State of origin, part of the self-defense forces and the Federal forces.

Concerns the weekly ZETA who already were captured by the police Ministerial Juan Carlos Casillas Ledesma of 24 years and Antonio Ledesma Moreno of 32 years, both originating in Apatzingan, situation that bothered much to the vulture who threatened via telephone to the headquarters of the Ministerial police in VIZCAINO who release them "or will fall all dead".

Despite the threats, elements of the Attorney's special investigations of the Prosecutor's Office of Justice continue in search of Henry Froilan Rojas Ramirez alias EL BUZZARD which already issued a warrant with photography. In the actions of intelligence and search also involved preventive State police that has made screenshots of people involved in drug trafficking.

ASSURANCE OF WEAPONS AND DRUGS YESTERDAY!
The Attorney's special investigations unveiled as a result of operations carried out in the northern part of the State, were the location and 2 - 1 vizcaino narcomenudeoaseguramiento of long guns, 3 weapons short, 15 useful Chargers, 173 useful cartridges, seven vehicles, and Crystal and granulated illicit substances with the characteristics of the drug Crystal corresponding to 31,750 doses, which are related to criminal acts in the community of Villa Alberto Alvarado Arámburobeing placed at the disposal of the agent of the Ministry public jurisdiction common attached to the Attorney's special investigations.

The State Ministerial police investigations agents attached to the Attorney's investigations special date 24, 25 and 26 of January of this year, deployed operational special security in the community of Villa Alberto Alvarado Arámburo where was the arrest of 7 likely responsible for a crime against the health and assurance of substances white and Crystal with the characteristics of the drug for a thousand glass 950 dosesas well as a white powder with characteristics of 88 dose and a vehicle for cocaine, which were put at the disposal of the agent of the public prosecutor of the common law research Adscritos to the strategic operations center in Guerrero Negro.

Derivative of the above was achieved at the same time the location of seven vehicles that are related to illegal activities in the area North Pacific North State.

Tracking research on January 30, 2014, elements of the Ministerial State police assigned to the Attorney's research moved to the Ejido Gustavo Díaz Ordaz, where was located next to the road that leads to Bahía Tortugas, buried 8 long and 3 short weapons and substance Crystal and grainy with the characteristics of the drug Crystal, which is why the agent of the Ministry public of jurisdiction common researcher, ministerial police seconded to the Attorney's special investigations and experts attached to the Directorate of services expert, Internat

DENNIS - 4-11-2014 at 04:23 PM

So it's not a squeaky clean area. These guys in the drug business don't have a reputation for going around killing distressed people in the middle of nowhere.

I'm not saying these thugs have any redeeming qualities, but they usually keep a tight focus on their traditional foes.

latina - 4-11-2014 at 04:31 PM

"Also, I'm not seeing any indication by anyone of the family's question (twice stated):

If Gary is still alive, where do you think he might be?

Thoughts?"

We know what he is NOT doing:
-not camping
-not surfing
-not fishing
-not taking photos
-not spending money

If he is alive someone would have to be looking after his necessities. The only places I come up with if he is alive are hospitals and jails.

DENNIS - 4-11-2014 at 04:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by latina

We know what he is NOT doing:
-not camping
-not surfing
-not fishing
-not taking photos
-not spending money



Although I have to agree.......these are only more assumptions.

KurtG - 4-11-2014 at 05:03 PM

The "major farm operation" a few years back was referred to as being in San Quintin by the news reports but in fact was just north of the highway at San Agustin which is about 20 miles north of Catavina. Where the old closed Pemex and the unused SCT facility are. As to police operations in Catavina, they are part-time and minimal at best and have existed at all only in fairly recent years.

About the only theory that hasn't been floated yet is that "Gottapeso" was the kingpin behind all this. That would make as much sense as most of the speculation going on here.

[Edited on 4-12-2014 by KurtG]

Skipjack Joe - 4-11-2014 at 05:20 PM

A couple of more suggestions for LL. Both are obvious:

Camera battery charge:

How much of a charge did the battery have when the police/rancher got hold of the camera. Assuming there is no way to charge batteries at those fish camps and that he isn't using portable batteries, if the battery is close to full then he didn't spent 4 months at the Canoa fish camp.

Notes or writing:

Check vehicle/glove compartment for any notes, scribbles, writing that could have been left in the vehicle.

I suppose there could be many such clues now that I think about it. A salty wetsuit or swim trunks. Sand stuck to areas of wetsuit. If he perished soon after crossing the border he probably never entered the water.

There must be many other clues like that. Booties? I don't know. I'm not a surfer.

Even the condition of his clothes. Check his clothes bag. If only a few are dirty then he didn't have time to go through them. If most look grungy then he could have been at Canoa for 4 months. Compare clean vs dirty.

Will think about more such ideas.

JoeJustJoe - 4-11-2014 at 05:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by latina
"Also, I'm not seeing any indication by anyone of the family's question (twice stated):

If Gary is still alive, where do you think he might be?

Thoughts?"

We know what he is NOT doing:
-not camping
-not surfing
-not fishing
-not taking photos
-not spending money

If he is alive someone would have to be looking after his necessities. The only places I come up with if he is alive are hospitals and jails.


The only hope Gary is still alive is early on it was mentioned somewhere on the Internet that Gary had a falling out with the family, had plenty of money with him, and may not wanted to be found.

So this would bring up another question: Was Gary fond of the ladies? There are many older Gringos who find love with Mexican girls half their age, and sometimes they find them in small towns and live quite happily for awhile at least till their money runs out, or for reasons why other people split up, for example why their first wife divorced them . Could Gary be with some woman and her family and just be hiding out?

This is the only a plausible scenarios among the weird, outrageous, and unlikely I could think of, besides the most likely and obvious, and that is Gary got stuck in the sand, left his two-wheel drive SUV, and went by foot to get help in the hot desert sun. I'm sorry, but it's highly unlikely anybody could survive very long in those harsh unforgiving conditions in the Baja desert during the last days of summer in September.

[Edited on 4-12-2014 by JoeJustJoe]

Fishing rods

Skipjack Joe - 4-11-2014 at 05:51 PM

I read that Gary was an ardent fisherman.

Were the rods assembled or disassembled?

If assembled then he probably fished on that coastline. Nobody leaves home with assembled rods. They are stowed and assembled after arrival. If rods are unassembled he could or could not have been on the coast already. Sometimes we disassemble them when going from location to location, at other times we just throw them over the back seat and keep them ready for other locations.

Can't think of other sure fire indicators of whereabouts regarding fishing. He could or could not have changed his line before the trip. Lures could be new or battered - no clues there. Old bait on hooks could be an indicator of time spent at Canoa (4 month theory). Nobody leaves home with hooks in that condition.
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