BajaNomad

Turtle bust

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Skipjack Joe - 7-11-2010 at 08:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup


Not a clue why one would have these responses to Mr. Munoz’s submission to official documentation, which in fact prove his position, at this time.



A. Mr Munoz publicly accuses Marc and Olivia of drug trafficking and destruction of endangered animals.
B. Mr Munoz provides documents of his real estate ownership as some sort of proof in his case.

What does one have to do with other?

Are we to conclude that because M&O lost their land dispute (if they did) with Mr Munoz they are also guilty of the above crimes?

What documentation are you looking for M&O to provide?

Shouldn't the accuser provide documentation for the crime he's accusing? And not the other way around?

I have to admit that my initial reaction to the display of official documents were "What on earth ...?". But apparently a couple of nomads found them to be pertinent to this case. The only thing they show, in my opinion, is that there is a verry strong likelihood that Mr Munoz has alterior motives that the criminal accusations of M&O stick.

I have no legal background, but aren't those documents the sort of thing a judge would forbid as inadmissable evidence in a court of law because they have nothing to do with the case in hand and tend to bias the jury? Isn't that in fact what Mr Munoz is trying to do with the reader?

toneart - 7-11-2010 at 08:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
So, because you don't have any better evidence against them, you bring up the turtle story (again) hoping to get sympathy from the tree huggers (greenies) here.

Olivia told me what happened and she (in person) is far more believable than you (on the Internet). Do you think someone being so harassed te way you are harassing them would take a chance at breaking the law?
Allowing a Mexican family to use her kitchen for their big event is the kind hearted action of this lady. Do you also go around to other places (like Comondu) and turn in other families cooking turtle (beacause you have nothing else to do)?

If it is turtle crime you hope to stop, then leave... they have been arrested and released for allowing (without knowledge) someone else to cook their fiesta turtle meal.


David K.,

Your first paragraph is the type of political bias that poisons so many of your otherwise poignant posts. Why do you find it necessary to do this? Are "tree huggers (greenies)" the only ones that are concerned about the welfare of turtles? What about you? What is you attitude in regards to the welfare of turtles?

mtgoat666 - 7-11-2010 at 09:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
So, because you don't have any better evidence against them, you bring up the turtle story (again) hoping to get sympathy from the tree huggers (greenies) here.


you don't have to be "green" to be for saving endangered species. DK: why do you want to eat turtles?
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Olivia told me what happened and she (in person) is far more believable than you (on the Internet).


hopefully, the courts will not decide innocence/guilt on basis of who DK likes.
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Allowing a Mexican family to use her kitchen for their big event is the kind hearted action of this lady. Do you also go around to other places (like Comondu) and turn in other families cooking turtle (beacause you have nothing else to do)?

If it is turtle crime you hope to stop, then leave... they have been arrested and released for allowing (without knowledge) someone else to cook their fiesta turtle meal.


i find it bvery hard to believe that owners or emplyees were unaware of turtle stew being cooked in restaurant. it seems to be a stretch to believe that hotel owners or emplyees were unaware about the crime going down in the kitchen. seems very convenient excuse to blame things on guests,... would you want to be guest if you were made scape goat?

David K - 7-11-2010 at 09:27 AM

Tony and Goat, I said what I did because THAT is the purpose of Muñoz... to use you to further his goals of conquest... in much the same way Al Gore uses people to get rich (by telling lies about global warming/ sea levels rising over us).

Turtles are animals and most humans eat animals. Sad perhaps, but a fact of life. Once the turtles have rebounded from near extinction, they will again be enjoyed by locals and fine eating places, as they were when I was a kid traveling in Baja.

I don't remember if I tasted any back in 1967 at Diaz' in Bahia de los Angeles (I don't think so, as I was fussy about food), but it was a big event when Cruz made her turtle meals. I do remember in the 1980's seeing turtle oil and lotion for sale in the shops in San Felipe as well.

Totuava is another 'endangered' species, but is still caught and eaten... If someone is hungry, I think they will chose their life over an animal's. God (Nature) provides these things afterall... It would probably really upset you to go to the Orient and see the kinds of things people eat there!

Next time you have a tuna sandwich, think of the family destroyed by eating one of the parents... Is it only okay to eat tuna because there are still lots of them? Who's to say when a food source must end or if it is 'natural' to eat them until they are all gone. Does a snake stop eating mice when he has a harder time finding them as they become fewer where he hunts?

Have a great day and think logically instead of emotionally, for a change!

Well, there you have it!

toneart - 7-11-2010 at 09:38 AM

DK,

As Elinvestig8 says: "Thank you for your reply".:rolleyes:

David K - 7-11-2010 at 09:40 AM

My pleasure... Have a great day Tony!:biggrin:

mtgoat666 - 7-11-2010 at 09:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Tony and Goat, I said what I did because THAT is the purpose of Muñoz... to use you to further his goals of conquest... in much the same way Al Gore uses people to get rich (by telling lies about global warming/ sea levels rising over us).

Turtles are animals and most humans eat animals. Sad perhaps, but a fact of life. Once the turtles have rebounded from near extinction, they will again be enjoyed by locals and fine eating places, as they were when I was a kid traveling in Baja.

I don't remember if I tasted any back in 1967 at Diaz' in Bahia de los Angeles (I don't think so, as I was fussy about food), but it was a big event when Cruz made her turtle meals. I do remember in the 1980's seeing turtle oil and lotion for sale in the shops in San Felipe as well.

Totuava is another 'endangered' species, but is still caught and eaten... If someone is hungry, I think they will chose their life over an animal's. God (Nature) provides these things afterall... It would probably really upset you to go to the Orient and see the kinds of things people eat there!

Next time you have a tuna sandwich, think of the family destroyed by eating one of the parents... Is it only okay to eat tuna because there are still lots of them? Who's to say when a food source must end or if it is 'natural' to eat them until they are all gone. Does a snake stop eating mice when he has a harder time finding them as they become fewer where he hunts?

Have a great day and think logically instead of emotionally, for a change!


dk: thank you for your revealing post :lol:

"Next time you have a tuna sandwich, think of the family destroyed by eating one of the parents" said DK :lol:

ya, sure, you betcha!

David K - 7-11-2010 at 09:49 AM

That is know as 'food for thought' ... Mr. goat :light:

BajaBlanca - 7-11-2010 at 09:53 AM

Turtles are eaten everywhere here in these villages in Baja California Sur.... it will take a lot of time before those who are used to eating them really understand that they are endangered...that enlightenment only comes with real education. I think environmental groups still have a lot to do to convice those who still eat turtle = a comfort food.

David K - 7-11-2010 at 09:55 AM

Exactly!

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-11-2010 at 09:56 AM



I have been pretty clear how I feel about people torturing and killing sea turtles. That said I am still willing to give Olivia and Mark their day in court to prove they had nothing to do with it. I think I have been very fair to them as I do not know the truth.

DENNIS - 7-11-2010 at 10:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
I do remember in the 1980's seeing turtle oil and lotion for sale in the shops in San Felipe as well.




Yeah....that stuff was really popular. Turtle oil in everything.
Actually, I never thought for a second that there was any turtle oil in any of the stuff. I mean, how would you know?
It's like all the Vanilla Extract you see on the shelves today. I doubt there's any real Vanilla in that stuff either.

comitan - 7-11-2010 at 10:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Tony and Goat, I said what I did because THAT is the purpose of Muñoz... to use you to further his goals of conquest... in much the same way Al Gore uses people to get rich (by telling lies about global warming/ sea levels rising over us).

DK

You just can't not get political can you.!!!!

wessongroup - 7-11-2010 at 10:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup


Not a clue why one would have these responses to Mr. Munoz’s submission to official documentation, which in fact prove his position, at this time.



A. Mr Munoz publicly accuses Marc and Olivia of drug trafficking and destruction of endangered animals.
B. Mr Munoz provides documents of his real estate ownership as some sort of proof in his case.

What does one have to do with other?

Are we to conclude that because M&O lost their land dispute (if they did) with Mr Munoz they are also guilty of the above crimes?

What documentation are you looking for M&O to provide?

Shouldn't the accuser provide documentation for the crime he's accusing? And not the other way around?

I have to admit that my initial reaction to the display of official documents were "What on earth ...?". But apparently a couple of nomads found them to be pertinent to this case. The only thing they show, in my opinion, is that there is a verry strong likelihood that Mr Munoz has alterior motives that the criminal accusations of M&O stick.

I have no legal background, but aren't those documents the sort of thing a judge would forbid as inadmissable evidence in a court of law because they have nothing to do with the case in hand and tend to bias the jury? Isn't that in fact what Mr Munoz is trying to do with the reader?


For a start... ANY documentation !!!!

As for the other... here is a post dated 4-13-2009 @ 09:59 on the very first page of this thread which "brings up" Mr. Munoz's name and property stealing ... FIRST!!! and was put up by Baja&Back

Barry & Vanda
Baja and Back RV Tours
Vancouver BC Canada / Baja
http://bajaandback.com

This is a quote from the Baja&Back post

"FYI: The guy posting at Bajaforums as "San Buenaventura" is Munoz himself, the person who is trying to steal miles of beachfront in Concepcion by invading and fencing it. He has had a running battle with Mark & Olivia for years. I wouldn't be surprised if he planted the turtle evidence on them, considering his black reputation.
He also sent emails out to baja caravan companies, including us, that we have to pay HIM next year to stay on Bahia Concepcion beaches! I will post his email on this forum when I have replied.
Look for this snake lawyer to show up on Nomads forum soon ..."

In the previous posts on the first page, there is no mention of land and/or Mr Munoz being involved until this post...

So please explain, how one concludes the issue of land ownership was started on THIS thread by Mr. Munoz?



[Edited on 7-11-2010 by wessongroup]

Bajatripper - 7-11-2010 at 12:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ELINVESTIG8R

I do not drink!



You ought to, it might make you a happier person.

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-11-2010 at 12:27 PM

Good post Bajatripper.

mtgoat666 - 7-11-2010 at 01:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
That is know as 'food for thought' ... Mr. goat :light:


also known as idiotic blather

Skipjack Joe - 7-11-2010 at 04:48 PM

Mr Wessongroup,

This thread is 79 pages long and contains over 1500 posts. It wanders all over the place. I am not going to read all those posts now to look for exceptions to my statements. The post you found wasn't even made by either of the 2 parties.

The gist of the thread is as follows as I see it. Mr Munoz and M&O had at one time land disputes over some property rights which Mr Munoz won in court and is now the undisputed owner of it. In all honesty I don't remember any posts by M&O disputing this at any time.

The thread really starts with Mr Munoze's accusations of narco trafficking and turtle poaching (hence the title of the thread). Virtually every post he has made over the last year keep hammering on this subject. Am I to post his quotes here as you did?

Mr Munoz claims that he now needs to defend himself. From what? He has been the accuser in the entire process. The driving force in this pursuit of justice. And yet his credibility in the matter are some court documents dealing with his real estate dealings. What nonsense!!!

Listen, if Mr Munoz is so apalled with the destruction of turtles he would be active in their conservation by now. He could organize a watch group of turtle poaching in baja. He could contribute monetarily to such organizations that already exist. He could get involved in turtle rearing projects to negate the effects of poachers. But no. Mr Munoz is only interested in the single alleged poacher living next door. Now tell me, how believable is the word of such a man?

But there is more...

As the thread evolves Mr Munoz starts to call Investigator8 as the only reasonable mind here. It also just happens that this man is the only one that agrees with him.

Jesse ,who doesn't buy Mr Munoz's argument, is now being referred to as NarcoHelper or some such thing.

I don't know about you, Wessongroup, but the man doesn't inspire trust in me. At best I see him as cagey.

wessongroup - 7-11-2010 at 05:10 PM

The contents is of importance, not the poster.. as names change

And the only way to find out who start this entire "Soap" was to find the first poster.. that you don't want to find it.. is not of concern and has nothing to do with the fact, that this post was made and in alleges both land grabbing, and illegal actions by Mr Munoz, if you can't see the importance, again, that is not of concern or importance. The post is through

I just started to read from the start... had never done it.. I came in on page 70 and did not want to wade through the whole sorted story... that is why I asked could anyone prepare a report, keep the cover page to one page, included a list of players, include a chronology and support everything with documentation... pictures, evidence in what ever form.. statements et al..

What came back was supplied by only one individual, and then statements were again made about many other issues, and did not related to "turtle meat".

I thought, well... I'll will go back and find the "first person" who changed the threats original point, "cooking of turtle meat".. was not sure how far it was going to take ... but, was pleasantly surprised to find my answer on the first page, which I then noted, and post to "show" that it was not Mr Munoz who started this whole thing, but someone else.

I did not even point out, that in that post the first mention of Mr Munoz being an alleged planter of the turtle meat in the subject restaurant where an official found an animal one is not supposed to possess and/or eat.

Again, I have requested documentation from anyone to help with this point, yet none have supplied any to date.

We have been given assurances by one individual this evidence is forth coming.. one can only wait...

I hope this provides you insight into my involvement in this issue.. it has been only since page 70 which equates to posted on 7-1-2010 at 07:35 AM

Someone had suggested that I take a look at this thread.. I had never been on it to the best of my knowledge... but, then I'm an old guy on drugs.. so don't be to hard on me if I'm off a bit on things.. I try and keep things straight.. but, don't claim to be perfect... was just struck by the degree of emotion going on over a turtle stew !!!

[Edited on 7-12-2010 by wessongroup]

[Edited on 7-12-2010 by wessongroup]

mtgoat666 - 7-11-2010 at 05:38 PM

here is a reminder:
Quote:
Originally posted by OLIGUACOMOLE
To all concerned; yes, I have been involved in many different and some very bad situations, affecting my business for more de 19 years, my reputation, my image and my life of all the ones I love including our families and friends. I am not going to tell you all of the details of this lately federal offense that indeed happened in my restaurant on Saturday April 11th, Easter weekend, because is and going to be under investigation. I am working in my restaurant and my business is open that’s a big plus, yes it is a huge felony and you don’t stay out to tell the story, you go straight to a federal prison and might be 1 to 9 years in jail, but who ever is trying to nail me down didn’t do it right. I was not selling “soup”, I DID NOT KNOW because the food was bring to my restaurant cooked and ready to be serve, I was not making money with it, it was for a group of Mexican families from Ensenada and they were going to pay for the drinks and service as well for the use of the facilities of the beach and restaurant. The officials from Pesca and Sagarpa including the marines were there for hours and DID NOT find any illegal and/or out of season species in my freezers or refrigerators, what they found in a pick-up truck outside the restaurant in the garbage containers was these plastic bag with parts of a turtle, 2 heads, 4 fins and the chest or bottom part of it, NO BLOOD OR GUTS. Also parts were in a plastic bag type that I do not have here. No other parts were found.

Someone called after dropping off a blue covered pot at my restaurant and said “there is a pot blue with turtle at Buenaventura. Parts of turtle in trash, and drugs under the computer.

Rafael Munoz “el mano negra” mentions that I have several reports in Mulege for different “crimes” but HE does’nt say that he is the one that made all these accusations against me and fail in all of them.

If anyone has questions about me and wants to know more about these nightmare feel free to come to my restaurant, because I am not going to play this BS that Munoz plays.

Muchas gracias, Olivia Higuera.


who knows what the real story is???????????????

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-11-2010 at 06:09 PM

wessongroup - 7-11-2010 at 06:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
Again, I have requested documentation from anyone to help with this point, yet none have supplied any to date.

We have been given assurances by one individual this evidence is forth coming.. one can only wait...



Documentation? where do you think you are? kansas? any documentation provided by both parties should be taken very lightly considering the huge amount of fake paperwork floating around Baja at this time. A person who asks for documentation is clueless about the way things are done here in baja.

You have been given assurances by an individual that ALWAYS promises assurances and never delivers, that is there for all to see in past cases where Muñoz is involved.

Wake up!


True and correct documents can be requested, if someone needs to third party independent verification of all supplied documentation, same has been suggested

And for now we are to my knowledge talking about the cooking of turtle meat in a Restaurant.. and that is all

And no I don't think I'm in Kanas... and Mexico does have Government Agencies and they do keep records and copies can be requested under current Mexican Law

If you have specific knowledge about restrictions to request under the Freedom of Information Act your Country has for it's citizens, please advise

[Edited on 7-12-2010 by wessongroup]

wessongroup - 7-11-2010 at 07:02 PM

for the time being, would prefer that the topic stay on"turtle meat" allegedly being cooked, in the kitchen, I can only guess...
Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
here is a reminder:

Quote:
Originally posted by OLIGUACOMOLE
To all concerned; yes, I have been involved in many different and some very bad situations, affecting my business for more de 19 years, my reputation, my image and my life of all the ones I love including our families and friends. I am not going to tell you all of the details of this lately federal offense that indeed happened in my restaurant on Saturday April 11th, Easter weekend, because is and going to be under investigation. I am working in my restaurant and my business is open that’s a big plus, yes it is a huge felony and you don’t stay out to tell the story, you go straight to a federal prison and might be 1 to 9 years in jail, but who ever is trying to nail me down didn’t do it right. I was not selling “soup”, I DID NOT KNOW because the food was bring to my restaurant cooked and ready to be serve, I was not making money with it, it was for a group of Mexican families from Ensenada and they were going to pay for the drinks and service as well for the use of the facilities of the beach and restaurant. The officials from Pesca and Sagarpa including the marines were there for hours and DID NOT find any illegal and/or out of season species in my freezers or refrigerators, what they found in a pick-up truck outside the restaurant in the garbage containers was these plastic bag with parts of a turtle, 2 heads, 4 fins and the chest or bottom part of it, NO BLOOD OR GUTS. Also parts were in a plastic bag type that I do not have here. No other parts were found.

Someone called after dropping off a blue covered pot at my restaurant and said “there is a pot blue with turtle at Buenaventura. Parts of turtle in trash, and drugs under the computer.

Rafael Munoz “el mano negra” mentions that I have several reports in Mulege for different “crimes” but HE does’nt say that he is the one that made all these accusations against me and fail in all of them.

If anyone has questions about me and wants to know more about these nightmare feel free to come to my restaurant, because I am not going to play this BS that Munoz plays.

Muchas gracias, Olivia Higuera.


who knows what the real story is???????????????
'

[Edited on 7-12-2010 by wessongroup]

ramuma53 - 7-11-2010 at 07:03 PM

My friends
In the past we may all have eaten sea turtle, but we did it almost to the species extinction.

When that happen, it is time to stop eating the animal in danger; first it is suggested, but people just keep doing it as if nothing was going to change; the governments have to step in forbidding the killing; at that point it is against the law and a crime to do it; it is no longer an excuse to say that you used to do it so you are going to continue.

The crime is exacerbated when a business is involved, because the merchant is not only breaking the law, he is promoting the felony to get revenue.

A lot of you, say you know Olivia and that she is a nice lady, but if you know her, you must know that she never give away anything or let you use her kitchen for free; you should know it, so the story about she letting an external guest use her kitchen without knowing what was being cooked is infantile; also to cook sea turtle is not an act you can hide, it really smell and you know it is being cooked 1/2 mile away, so Olivia was not only allowing a couple use her kitchen, she knew what was being cooked and she for sure knew it was illegal, but she did it anyway.

Another fact is that if what she say were true, it would have been an isolated event, but we all know it was not an isolated event.

At that time I was not at the hotel, but several usual guests were and they related the events to me direct hand.

At least TWO different corporations were watching the Restaurant looking for drugs, then they knew because Olivia was publishing the fact that she will be selling sea turtle that Saturday and the authorities being there got the word and got their teams together.

She was caught by 3 DIFERENT Federal corporations and a marine commando caught her with the sea turtle pot on her hands, she didn't say IN HER FIRST STATEMENT THAT she was allowing a couple use her kitchen, she said SHE WAS COOKING IT FOR THE ENSENADA COPULE.

If she was cooking it for them in her restaurant, do any of you think she was not charging for it???? even people who know her say she would never cook for free.

Also, the sea turtle parts were all over her property, her trash can and her pickup; also they caught the lady who sold the sea turtle to her with part of the same caguamas and she said Olivia asked her for them for Semana Santa and her son caught them at sea on her special order.

The same multi corporation task force, went all over Baja cracking down on people selling sea turtle, Olivia was only one of the ones who were caught, so it was not a task force for her only.

Of course the task force went to Comondu and other places and they only caught 3 places with sea turtle and Olivia was the only restaurant.

Do any of you are ready to justiffy selling an endangered species on restaurants???? do any of you are ready to justiffy breaking the law just because before it was not a crime.

Did you know that using and selling cocaine was not a crime some years before and it was being sold on any Pharmacy??? Do you also on the same basis condone the use and traffick of cocaine?????

The law seve a purpose, to allow for costume or to change costumes that no longer are fair of good for some one else or specie.

To change is our obligation because we didn’t do it voluntarily in time, now we have to change and is not a question; it is an obligation from now on.

comitan - 7-11-2010 at 07:10 PM

I think that I now have enough information and my bet is on Seabisquit .:yes::yes::yes:

mtgoat666 - 7-11-2010 at 07:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
for the time being, would prefer that the topic stay on"turtle meat" allegedly being cooked, in the kitchen, I can only guess...


Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
here is a reminder:

Quote:
Originally posted by OLIGUACOMOLE
To all concerned; yes, I have been involved in many different and some very bad situations, affecting my business for more de 19 years, my reputation, my image and my life of all the ones I love including our families and friends. I am not going to tell you all of the details of this lately federal offense that indeed happened in my restaurant on Saturday April 11th, Easter weekend, because is and going to be under investigation. I am working in my restaurant and my business is open that’s a big plus, yes it is a huge felony and you don’t stay out to tell the story, you go straight to a federal prison and might be 1 to 9 years in jail, but who ever is trying to nail me down didn’t do it right. I was not selling “soup”, I DID NOT KNOW because the food was bring to my restaurant cooked and ready to be serve, I was not making money with it, it was for a group of Mexican families from Ensenada and they were going to pay for the drinks and service as well for the use of the facilities of the beach and restaurant. The officials from Pesca and Sagarpa including the marines were there for hours and DID NOT find any illegal and/or out of season species in my freezers or refrigerators, what they found in a pick-up truck outside the restaurant in the garbage containers was these plastic bag with parts of a turtle, 2 heads, 4 fins and the chest or bottom part of it, NO BLOOD OR GUTS. Also parts were in a plastic bag type that I do not have here. No other parts were found.

Someone called after dropping off a blue covered pot at my restaurant and said “there is a pot blue with turtle at Buenaventura. Parts of turtle in trash, and drugs under the computer.

Rafael Munoz “el mano negra” mentions that I have several reports in Mulege for different “crimes” but HE does’nt say that he is the one that made all these accusations against me and fail in all of them.

If anyone has questions about me and wants to know more about these nightmare feel free to come to my restaurant, because I am not going to play this BS that Munoz plays.

Muchas gracias, Olivia Higuera.


who knows what the real story is???????????????
'

[Edited on 7-12-2010 by wessongroup]


it does seem kind of fishy for a restaurant to turn over their kitchen to a customer. it also seems to be a convenient excuse when caught serving illegal turtle,... blame it all on the customer.

so, let's hear from the customer. ramanus53: who was the customer? was it DK or Elvis8?

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-11-2010 at 07:43 PM



Edit to say: Sorry I tasered you Jesse. I meant it for Mtgoat666!

[Edited on 7-12-2010 by ELINVESTIG8R]

ramuma53 - 7-11-2010 at 08:27 PM

mtgoat666
" I was not selling “soup”, I DID NOT KNOW because the food was bring to my restaurant cooked and ready to be serve, I was not making money with it, it was for a group of Mexican families from Ensenada and they were going to pay for the drinks and service as well for the use of the facilities of the beach and restaurant."

SHE SAY SHE WAS NOT MAKING MONEY, BUT THEN SHE SAY THEY WERE GOING TO PAY FOR THE SERVICE AND DRINKS AND USE OF FACILITIES, THAT MEAN THE RESTAURANT AND WHO WILL BELIEVE THAT SHE DID NOT KNOW THAT SHE WAS GOING TO SERVE SEA TURTLE, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE SEA TURTLE AND DON'T KNOW IT IN A SMALL REATURANT, IT SMELL A LOT; ALSO, THE SEA TURTLE PARTS WERE ON MARK JEROME BURBEY PICUP TRUCK, HER ALLEGUED HUSBAND, NOT JUST ANY PICUP TRUCK.
ALSO SHE HAVE FAILED TO EXPLAIN HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT WHEN SHE SAW THE AUTHORITIES, SHE TOOK THE POT WITH THE TURTLE AND TRIED TO GO OUT THE BACK DOOR WITH IT AND WAS CAUGHT WITH IT ON HER HANDS BY A MARINE COMMANDO?
IF SHE DID NOT KNOW THAT THE POT HAD COOKED CAGUAMA, WHY DID SHE TOOK THAT PARTICULAR POT FROM HER STOVE AND TRIED TO RAN OUT WITH IT?; SHE DID IT BECAUSE SHE KNEW WHAT IT WAS, SHE TIRED TO TAKE IT OUT BECAUSE SHE KNEW IT WAS A CRIME TO HAVE IT AND NOT TO CHARGE FOR IT IS UNBELIEVABLE, SHE WAS CHARGING FOR EVERYTHING ELSE AND SHE ACCEPT IT.

I agree, we should wait for the veredict on her crime, but if the turtle were planted and the authorities thought it was true, they would have indicted some one else and nobody beside her and her cook were indicted and subjected to trial.

On the part that all the fellonies she is being prosecuted for were initiated by me, it is a lie, because from the 8 prosecutions, only 4 are mine for damages to my property and she confesed to the police right away and later changed her story in writing and that is why she is being also prosecuted by the authority for lying to the authorities.
The others were intiated by Juan Ankrom and his wife and by Jimmy an American who she tried to kill in her restaurant; a conviction was issued on those last charges, 6 years in jail, but for some obscure reason the oreder to start serving the time has never been served.

So it is clear we are dealing here with a convicted criminal, not a nice lady; she is just waiting for more convictions on a lot more charges.

Whoever here trying to denny her own words, have a difficult time doing it, because she herself have admited to the crimes in writing to the police and district attorney; we are not trying to convict her, her own actions did it and she admited having commited the criminal actions, we are just trying that justice be served and criminals go to jail for their crimes after being convicted by a judge.

Why people here denny she is a criminal? she have been convicted of several crimes already; the first one was the one for commiting fraud against Mr. and Mrs, Christ and the conviction ordered her to pay back the money. she never did; the last one was for Jimmy's injuries that put his life in danger, injuries sustained with intent to kill, Jimmy said she was there with Narc kiking and hitting him with a machete; he also with other hotel guests heard her saying to Narc "Kill him"; only the order to start serving the time has never arrived.

But the best point is made by ELINVESTIGAT8R just wait and see; almost every issue that has surfaced her, has found legal proof and a little more time will bring down these issues too.

Just do not believe that Mexico is a Lawless country, it take it's time, but justice sooner or latter comes down on the criminal.

Also, you should not believe what Jessy the cooky liar say that it is easy to forge official documents in Mexico, it is easy on any part of the world, but in Mexico if you do it, it is a federal felony and the Federal police will come down on you just like a ton of bricks, so do not believe that and try it, it would be on you for a long time in jail; it is easy to do it, but extremely hard to go away with it.

Mexico is a lot like the USA, but a lot of people think they can go away with violating the Mexican law, only they will find out that it take time but justice come in Mexico, some time harder than in any other place in the world.

ramuma53 - 7-11-2010 at 08:50 PM

Mtgoat666
You are the second one on this discussion who think, the first one was elinvestigat8r.
Yes it smell fishy or to sea turtle; also that Ensenada couple was never found or their name provided, not even by her Narc husband even after they supposedly knew them from Ensenada.
If that Ensenada couple exist, why nobody, not even her husband provided their name to discharge Olivia; also, if that couple were there cooking at her kitchen, why only Olivia and her cook were apprehended by the task force?????? That means there was nobody else at the kitchen so that mean Olivia and her cook were cooking the sea turtle.
She is convicting herself with her own words and that is what usually happens to criminals.

At the time the task force surrounded the restaurant, only Olivia and her cook were inside and were apprehended by the police, nobody else left the premises; that is why only her and her cook are being prosecuted.
If the police thought that some of my employees at Hotel Buenaventura planted the sea turtles on Olivia, they would have apprehended them too, but nobody beside Olivia and her cook are being prosecuted.
Your observations are the same the Federal Judge and the police made and she never explained them in a credible way.
Nice to have some one else beside Elinvestigat8r who use their head here.
:bounce::bounce::bounce:

[Edited on 7-12-2010 by ramuma53]

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-12-2010 at 05:01 AM

mtgoat666 - 7-12-2010 at 06:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ELINVESTIG8R


elvis8:
your caricature is close, but off. yes, i am a gas bag, but no i am not bald, and due to good genes never will be :bounce:

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-12-2010 at 06:03 AM

Touché Devil Goat!

ramuma53 - 7-12-2010 at 06:09 PM

nice to know you mtgoaqt666 only your look is very hard on people

ramuma53 - 7-12-2010 at 06:29 PM

Just as another comment on Olivia’s words
She said that I have failed to prosecute her in all procedures and that is false.
All my accusations on her were accepted by her, as having committed the acts of destruction on my property; she later changed her story and for that act, she is being prosecuted now for lying to the authorities, so I have not failed on any of them, everyone of them is going to convict her; but the local district attorney was holding all the cases or sending them without proof AND RETURNED BY THE JUDGE TO BE COMPLETED, he is only dragging his foot on all her investigations, but he has not dropped anyone or declared her innocent or not responsible for the criminal acts; the sword, or 8 swords are on top of her head, ready to drop any minute; she has not been declared innocent in any of them and she is being prosecuted for several.

Hope she becomes smart and just leave soon before the swords start to drop on her head, because then, after the third conviction she will be there in jail forever and Santa Rosalia jail is not exactly the most comfortable in the world.

All these are not my doing, it is her doing; she became adamant and cynic when committing the crimes, she just didn't believe she would be prosecuted and jailed; she was wrong and continue to be wrong if she think she will not be convicted and jailed for her crimes, actual crimes, but may be more coming I know Federal Police have not dropped her case on the unloading of drugs, it is a matter of time, she have done it so many times, she will do it the last time.

Skipjack Joe - 7-12-2010 at 07:24 PM

80 pages of bile and anger.

Mr Munoz, you are one of the unhappiest men I've ever come across.

Such a waste.

If this is the price people have to pay to get rich - I don't envy them one bit.

You are one angry man.

gnukid - 7-12-2010 at 07:41 PM

Hey Skipjack, You make a good point, these two, Ramuna53 and Elvinst8 are certainly people who deserve our compassion, never before have I seen such sad pathetic and angry souls, whose lives are spent to gain so little while losing so much.

Certainly both Dave E and Ramuna deserve our compassion, our thoughts and our prayer to help them through what is certainly the expression of their sentiment, lives so full of spite, anger and desire to hurt others, they must hurt inside, they must have suffered a life full of abuses, perhaps far worse than any one else can imagine.

As a group, we are able to listen, to hear their words which convey such horror and lack of joy, while we do not tolerate anti-social sociopaths at dinner, we can support them in this online community.

Ramuna and Dave E, let it out, talk about it, open your souls, forgo your promises to this sad cause, you are better than this, you can be so much, tell us your real dreams for joy and peace? A walk on the beach in peace, the joy of giving to those in need, the joy of celebrating hard work! We can listen if you will talk real talk.

[Edited on 7-13-2010 by gnukid]

DENNIS - 7-12-2010 at 07:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

If this is the price people have to pay to get rich - I don't envy them one bit.



He may have money, but he's far from rich. He shows a poverty of spirit and soul that makes the complete man.
Can't buy or cheat people out of that stuff.

24baja - 7-12-2010 at 10:30 PM

blah blah blah blah blah.....thought I'd run up a post number, this is insane reading and it will never end, i am so glad i am not living this!

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-12-2010 at 11:27 PM

larryC - 7-13-2010 at 08:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ELINVESTIG8R

Are you on San Diego TV? Don't you do the "Turco Files" for one of the local TV stations?

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-13-2010 at 09:35 AM

Good Zinger Larry!:lol:

toneart - 7-13-2010 at 01:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 24baja
blah blah blah blah blah.....thought I'd run up a post number, this is insane reading and it will never end, i am so glad i am not living this!


Ooops! Your post here reveals that you have read the whole insane string. And your "blah blah blah blah" is perhaps the best and most relevant contribution anyone has thus far made. Conclusion: Not only are you living it; This is your life! :spingrin:

And, since "it will never end", you are a Zombie just like the rest of us, condemned to an eternity of insane, Nomadic absorption.

Zombie.jpg - 9kB

Bajahowodd - 7-13-2010 at 02:53 PM

Don't want to get redundant here, but, geez, if Munoz was such a wealthy, successful businessman, who apparently after all this time, has a slam dunk on this issue, why in the name of all that is righteous is he wasting so much time on this forum? Methinks someone ought to pull aside the curtain.

24baja - 7-13-2010 at 03:28 PM

No not living it, just reading and thanking my stars that I have a very quiet life without threats and violence.
Quote:
Originally posted by toneart
Quote:
Originally posted by 24baja
blah blah blah blah blah.....thought I'd run up a post number, this is insane reading and it will never end, i am so glad i am not living this!


Ooops! Your post here reveals that you have read the whole insane string. And your "blah blah blah blah" is perhaps the best and most relevant contribution anyone has thus far made. Conclusion: Not only are you living it; This is your life! :spingrin:

And, since "it will never end", you are a Zombie just like the rest of us, condemned to an eternity of insane, Nomadic absorption.

ramuma53 - 7-13-2010 at 08:12 PM

BajaHowodd
Why do you have such a low opinion on all bajanomads?; why do you think people here are not important?

Do you think that only poor guys read and write in Bajanomad??????
I sincerely do not think so; here you find a Baja English speaking population and visitors fair sample.
Do you find any English speaking newspaper? Well only the Gringo Gazette, but it has such a low distribution that it is almost irrelevant while Bajanomad forums reach almost everyone.
Do you think only failures in life live and visit Baja? no for a long way, I have several American friends who are wealthy or better said very wealthy, in fact only wealthy people can afford to live permanently in Baja so here you should find a lot of business wealthy people, only they do not say they are, nor am I saying I am, but some of you keep bringing it up; do you feel inferior in some ways?.
Yes I have my properties but I assure you a lot of people here have properties so I consider myself just another Bajanomad.
Also for the ones who feel bad about us, sorry but you are in the wrong place, the church channel is someplace else, you are predicating in a very wrong place.

Remember, never feel sorry for the winner, but you when you lack arguments, just start to predicate; nice people you must be but god will not help you on this one and much less when you promote a sea turtle killer.

Howard - 7-13-2010 at 08:24 PM

In my opinion, I think some of these posters need to get on with their life. If this is all they have to do, spew poison and negativity, they lead a very shallow life.

This thread has see-sawed back and forth from serious, to funny, back to serious and now very, very pathetic. ENOUGH ALREADY!

Have you ever met someone that just tries way to hard? Is that person so pathetic that he has nothing else in life to do other than keep playing the same music over and over?

I do not have a dog in this fight. I will go to sleep tonight and hope that I made a friend today and not an enemy. Can some of you posters say the same?

Some of you, get a life, make a difference and move on to positive things, not negative.

Peace out,

Bubba

wessongroup - 7-13-2010 at 11:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Mr Wessongroup,

This thread is 79 pages long and contains over 1500 posts. It wanders all over the place. I am not going to read all those posts now to look for exceptions to my statements. The post you found wasn't even made by either of the 2 parties.

The gist of the thread is as follows as I see it. Mr Munoz and M&O had at one time land disputes over some property rights which Mr Munoz won in court and is now the undisputed owner of it. In all honesty I don't remember any posts by M&O disputing this at any time.

The thread really starts with Mr Munoze's accusations of narco trafficking and turtle poaching (hence the title of the thread). Virtually every post he has made over the last year keep hammering on this subject. Am I to post his quotes here as you did?

Mr Munoz claims that he now needs to defend himself. From what? He has been the accuser in the entire process. The driving force in this pursuit of justice. And yet his credibility in the matter are some court documents dealing with his real estate dealings. What nonsense!!!

Listen, if Mr Munoz is so apalled with the destruction of turtles he would be active in their conservation by now. He could organize a watch group of turtle poaching in baja. He could contribute monetarily to such organizations that already exist. He could get involved in turtle rearing projects to negate the effects of poachers. But no. Mr Munoz is only interested in the single alleged poacher living next door. Now tell me, how believable is the word of such a man?

But there is more...

As the thread evolves Mr Munoz starts to call Investigator8 as the only reasonable mind here. It also just happens that this man is the only one that agrees with him.

Jesse ,who doesn't buy Mr Munoz's argument, is now being referred to as NarcoHelper or some such thing.

I don't know about you, Wessongroup, but the man doesn't inspire trust in me. At best I see him as cagey.


As stated before.. I'm an old guy with not much to do .... and spend a lot of time in bed, due to being handicapped ... so.. to help you out, as it appears, that you wish to base your posts on "gist" "evolution" and your take on what was posted .. I went back and copied every post (which is still up under the name of ramuma53)

Please note that the date and time of posted, is in chronological ordered from the "board" starting with the first post... there are number of pages.... but, it does show what was said, as compared to what is alleged to have been said. And it will state again, that it was not Mr. Munoz to first make allegations broaching alleged "involvement" .. in this thread about cooking of turtle meat illegally

I stopped copying at page 70 as that is where I made a request for a report be supplied with supporting documentation .. it is the first post on page 70 if you wish to again see what I had hoped to "see" which would allow one to arrive at a fact based conclusion.

posted on 4-14-2009 at 03:34 PM ramuma53

My friends, it is clear that Olivia and Mark were selling and cooking for sale Turtle, that at this time is a protected specie in extintion danger, the fact that it is good or bad to eat is not on debate or the fact, it also looks like the fact that they killed the turtles and cooked them is not argued by Mark, Olivia's husband; the fact is that at this time, it is a Federal ofense to do that and she was caught in the act, a fact that not even they denie; who blew the wistle is of no importance because if I knew I would have done it myself, but the same Conapesca authorities busted several places that day, looks like it was an area action, we know that they searched the Hotel Buenaventura too, but found nothing illegal, but in the Restaurant El Zargazo owned by Olivia and Mark, they found the big pot of stew cooking, full of people waiting for it and the heads of the poor turtles in the trash can; also she was trying to go out of it, by saying that she is a MAFIA member or a Mafia Member relative; are those people who some people argue are good guys, then my notion of a good guy is out of place; Is Mexico a lawfull place or not, are we going to protect the endangered species or not, are we against the Mafia or not.

posted on 4-14-2009 at 04:50 PM ramuma53

As you said, it may have been a tradition, but only a culinary one; also the Aztecas had a tradition to kill people and that doesen't mean you can do it now; the real thing is that the turtles were put under protection for a reason, people were eating them to extintion and now it is a federal felony worst than killing a human, at least if you kill a human, you can argue that you were deffending yourself, but that is hard to argue against a Turtle; also I dare you to kill a Gray wale and then argue it is an Skimo Tradition, lets see if you manage to stay out of jail in any part of America.
On your line of tought, then why forbid cocaine consumption, that won't be going away soon either, or for that matter of fact any illegal drug consumption or even Discrimination against blacks or Mexicans, after all it was a Kukus Klan tradition or not.
The fact my friend, regardless of if it was a good food, it was a tradition or anything, is that it is Illegal all over the world now, for a very good reason, they are in extintion danger and as a consequence it is illegal to even look at them in a bad way; traditions change and have to be forgoten all the time and this is one we all should enforce, if we want our grandchildren to see a live turtle swiming in the sea, or are you palnning on telling yours that there are no more turtles because we were unable to change a culinary tradition.

posted on 4-14-2009 at 11:50 PM ramuma53

Well we are in Internet I think, a Real Estate war exist between people who actually buy land and hold it for proffit; here we have Olivia Higuera Aguilar claiming that Munoz papers are false and nobody bothered to ask her por proff; actually she made a formal complain to the Federal Police, who investigated the matter and who found out that the title was real and legal and that Olivia has no title or right or reason and the case was droped by the Federal authorities and anyone who want proff, there is no better place than the Public Registry with cadastral number 3-03-157 and Public regsitry number 340 book 178 in Santa Rosalia, you will find all the legal history incluiding the Federal investigation that finally recognized that the title was legal; even the Predial tax is paid on that property since 1971 to 2008 on Munoz name with no debt.
Now try to find anything there on Olivia's name, nothing, absolutely nothing, she only has a private contract with Ejido La Purisima afecting a piece of land on the Kilometer 94 to 95, but San Buenaventura is on Kilometer 93; she simply is on the wrong place and that is why the Ejido La Purisima droped the lawsuit against Munoz, they are no longer fighting him; now, do you want and American's independent opinion, just ask Mr. Thad Braxton who live in Buenaventura beach like me at thadbrax@yahoo.com , he is one of the people who Olivia claim Munoz took the house from him, but he is still there and not fighting Munoz at all but is being sued by Olivia who want to take his house from him through the Agrarian Tribunal at this very minute.
Here we have a person (Olivia) who acuse exactly of what she is doing, who don't have a single paper sustaining her property rights, acusing a person who have everything legal and who was catched in the act by federal police of selling as food a protected specie.
That is why I claim that there is no balance of eveidence between themat all, all the evidence is in Munoz favor and absolutely no evidence on Olivias favor and don't get me wrong, I will end up paying rent to one or the other, only I already saw all the legal evidence by myself and thorugh my attorney, simply Olivia has no legal case, only a newspaper case or an Internet case.
By the way, she is already out on Bail.



posted on 4-15-2009 at 12:05 AM ramuma53

And sorry about that tripledigitken I understand what you wanted to say and clearly know you will not buy illegal turtle now, but we are always claiming that there is no justice for Americans in Mexico but I think this show that there is justice in Mexico, not strong enought to hold her in jail for long, but I don't think she will have her restaurant for long after this.
Also if you want any proff, just ask Munoz at director@munoz-industries.com , he has always provided everything asked for, with no questions asked.


posted on 4-15-2009 at 11:31 AM


Well, Baja Gringo, that is the problem, I am citing court cases, and you cite me newspaper articles with personal opinions; if you call personal opinions evidence equal to court cases, then a problem arises; I am citing Public registry data, no newspaper opinions; I myself checked the legal data and found the public documents where they are supposed to be, in a public office and there you find Police investigations and the result of those, you find the Ejido La Purisima droping the claim that Munoz property is illegal and theirs, since he bought the land from the Federal government and part of the procedure was conducted with the Ejido signature and seal.
On Semarnap, Munoz is not on Federal Zone, his property is the land on the side while Olivia is holding a Federal Zone concesion that allow her only to have a Restaurant and palapas, her rent of bungalows ai unlawful as is to sell alchoolic veverages there; also and clearly selling turtle is not allowed and is unlawful.
Clearly to obtain a right opinion we have to compare the same kind of proff to one side or the other.
What I am saying is that Munoz have all kind of legal verifiable and solid proffs while Olivia has only newspaper opinions sent by herself and her husband.
Also, some of you sy you smell a rat; as if somebody had put the turtle on her, but remember that she was caught cooking it in her restaurant with the heads in the restaurant kitchen by herself and her cook who was also detained; if somebody put her up to that she must have participated and accepted to cook it and that is her own action, not something put there by somebody.
She was caught by a Marine commando operative, with a Propesca representative and Semarnao representative who were looking to all the commercial kitchens and she was one of the two catched in the act; they argue that the turtle was for their own food but they had 2 big turtles for a couple of people that is incredible; that is why she is in trouble, not because her land problems; lest not loose objectivity.


posted on 4-15-2009 at 04:00 PM

As we know, they checked El Burro, the Hotel Buenaventura and several other kitchens, but in Bahia Concepcion only Olivia Higuera Aguilar in Restaurant El Zargazo and another Lady named Gorosabe on Requeson beach were caught selling and cooking it for sale, they caught another place near Constitucion, but they say they checked about 200 places with only those 3 catches.
The Propesca commisioner was in Baja for 3 days only coming from Sonora, so the operative was staged to take him to as many places as they could in those 3 days, his visit was published and only a fool may have been catched selling sea turtle, but aparently Olivia didn't care or didnt know of the area operative, but it was obvious, it was easter vacation, it happen all over Mexico, besides, those operatives should be more frequent.
Also, looks like a lot of people are very willing to accept sea turtle as food and don't mind people selling it, some sound like they are even hurt that she was caught in the act of cooking 2 big sea turtles, with a big pot of stew, 2 blody shells and 2 heads in her posesion.
My friends, that is a federal ofense and a hideous crime and more for sale, lets get our values straight and avoid double standards.
it is not up to us to decide how criminal this act is, it is a criminal act agaisnt nature, no way around.



posted on 4-15-2009 at 09:56 PM

Well Diver, even if I don’t write very often, that doesn’t make me new, I am registered since 2003 and that makes you the newcomer, not me, so I am not exactly new here, I am a tenant of Mr. Munoz who live in Buenaventura Beach and I am not stomping it down your throats, I just don't like wrong statements circulating without commenting on them and those are not my facts, those are public facts, legal facts that I know and that I have not just extracted from an newspaper; of course, I investigated it because it affect me, I live there, but I went to the bottom of it with my attorney and if you do that, you will find that Mr. Munoz simply is the land owner and that Olivia used to work for him and had only a power of attorney, then she was fired and got the Federal Zone on her name, while the Hotel that has never been hers, paid for it, and the bills are in the Hotel accounting to prove that fact; we the Buenaventura tenants have been there since 1994 and Munoz have been the owner since 1971 for what I know and with the Ejido knowledge and consent, I am not alone living there, Mr. Thad Braxton and Mr. Murphy and Mr. Stan Valentine also live there and all of them pay rent to Mr. Munoz not to Olivia, just ask to Mr. Stan Valentine how much money was extorted from him by Olivia and her husbands and if he has lost a penny with Mr. Munoz.
It just revolt my stomach to see how people just believe what Olivia print in the clearly interested party newspaper; just write to that newspaper and see if they print first page 8 columns 7 times what you said but they print even false statements from Olivia every time; yes there is a rat, but it is not Munoz and time will give me the reason, just wait for it, we really have time on Baja to wait for anything, or not?.
My question may be, why so much interest to protect a criminal? What I tell is a public true supported by public documents; why sustain the Olivia's myth as a victim when she is really the attacker and the known criminal; at this time she has 8 criminal prosecutions in Mulege and one Federal now; from wounding an American with intent to kill to robbery and damages and lying to authorities, just ask the district attorney in Mulege, not me; she was even sentenced for stealing from an American couple a few years back but anyway she never paid the money back; those are known facts by all the people who live near us and now you, because you asked suggesting a bad intention; if you ask, you will get hard facts about Olivia all over the place.

posted on 4-15-2009 at 10:29 PM

El iNVESTI8 of course I am Mexican by birth and my name is Eduardo Villa Arellano, I will never deny it, just worked hard in American and came back, my main language is Spanish, that fact is not a secret or the point here.
About protecting our houses, you are right because every year our houses get robed in October when we go to America, but armed guards are expensive and that is why we don't do it, but we really need them, that is true.
About calling Mr. Munoz "Mano Negra", it is a disrespect act, but it is because he always use a black glove, because of an industrial accident; also, as I told you, he has never taken anything from nobody here in Buenaventura Beach, just ask the hometenants here.
About the newspaper article saying that he took some houses in some other place, we laugh about it here, because he does not even know the place where those houses are, as they are shown on the newspaper and if you segest he took a house here, these houses are his property, we are just renting them from him, but anyway he has not taken anyone's house here.
Those are the lies I was talking about, printed in the newspaper without even corroborate them as true facts, clearly Olivias is trying to discredit him and she has a lot of expensive help and that is something that smell like a rat, but people who know him personally will always give you the real thing, he is not bad at all and will help anybody who need it, as many people can tell you here and in Mulege, we just don't care about the newspaper.
The other fact is that Olivia commited a crime by her own acts, may be a sting, but she fell for it, it is like as if I ask you to kill somebody and you do it; you will only do it if you are an assasin, even if it is a sting and stings are used to catch criminals all over the world, just ask Mr. Delorean.
The fact is that those sea turtles are dead because she cooked them to sell them as food and that is a crime, here in Mexico and in the USA too, she may had just refused to cook them as anyone of us would have done, I am sure.


posted on 4-16-2009 at 12:29 PM


Ok. first Sharkbaja
Those are lies, Requeson or Buenaventura roads never were closed, and if you know the area, through Requeson road you can access any other beach; there were other 3 entrances that were closed for security reason; as you must know, last year an American was killed in La Armenta and closing all those entrances enhanced the area security because to enter the beaches you have to pass in front of a lot of people; so the bottom of it is that the beaches never were closed and it was a complete lie as every authority there is, found out because motivate by 5, 8 columns first pages on El Sudcaliforniano went to verify and ask every person arround, but when they arrived, Requeson was full of people and completely open, the same for Buenaventura; the funny thing is that the day the first news came out, the Estate police was there because they were investigating the roberies in our area, so the Police commander and agents are withnesses that the beaches were never closed.
That is what I am talking about, you have to be there to know the true facts, the nespaper is printing every lie Olivia send them, without even checking on it.


posted on 4-16-2009 at 01:08 PM


ELINVEST8 now, you are bringing out exactly the right questions, lets comapare the two caracters and I know the two of them.
Engineer Rafael Munoz Martinez, also attorney at law, was a Senate Candidate for North Baja on the 2000 elections, he owned then the ABC Baja newspaper and has a lot of journalistic trophies, past president of 2 small land owners associations in Rosarito beach, he was teaching martial arts ar the Army School when he was 18 years old, advisor for 2 lawmakers, congresswoman Mercedes Erdman and Mercedes Maciel, he founder of the Workers Party in Rosarito Beach and security advisor for the Mexican Army, I would trust any amount of money to Munoz while feeling safe and more would be overkill ok, but remember thr Army connection.
Olivia Higuera Aguilar, she used to work for the Electrical Company in Mexicali Baja, whith her ex husband Michael, she started bringing all kind of stuf from Central Mexico and bought even an airplane, they were bringing even wores to Buenaventura restaurant and one of them run off with her husband; two of her older brothers were killed in drug wars in Mexicali, she is a realtive of Martin Anaya Gorosave and just check on that one with your local DEA; she has 8 open criminal prosecutions in Mulege one of them for injuryes to an American with intent to kill and now one Federal for the turtles; she is selling alchool without a legal Federal permit for Federal Zone, she rent a house when it it prohibited by law to sub lease any part of Federal Zone and now she was caught cooking and selling sea turtle; also all arround here we see the unloading of boats at 3 AM and the next day a lot of policemen coming for 10 minute visits to her restaurant and have seen the army trying to catch them running all over the beach several times, she was sentenced along with her ex husband Mike for taking in a fraudulent way money from Mr. and Mrs. Christ, a couple who gave them money to build a house and got nothing and she never paid back a cent; she took more than $250,000 USD from my neighbor Mr. Stan Valentine who never got a cent back.
To who would you trust some money?
Also a lot of times, Olivia and Mark refuse service to Mexicans in her restaurant and refuse to grant access to the boats ramp and that is also against the law.
As you see, you have to know facts first hand to really have an opinion, but don't belive me, ask my neighbors who are Americans like Mr. Thad and Lora Jones at thadbrax@yahoo.com , or Mr. Stan Valentine or Mr. Murphy at TERRYRMURF@aol.com who are deffending themselves from Agrarian claims from Olivia, who is trying to get their houses. and gues who is helping us to keep our houses, Mr. Munoz.
posted on 4-16-2009 at 01:46 PM

BajaGringo
Concerning the land, I am sorry to tell you that the land at this minute is not subjected to any trial, because the Ejido La Purisima backed up their claims against Munoz, because they found out through official channels that Munoz property title was good and legal after a 2 years investigation by the Federal Police because an Olivia claim, so there is never going to be a Supreme Court ruling because there is no trial, the only trials are Olivia against the home tenants, JUICIO AGRARIO: TUA-48-047/2006. POBLADO LA PURÍSIMA MUNICIPIO DE COMONDÚ and others against us;
trying to collect $250,000 USD from each one of us, but it has already been proved that her Ejido Land is 1 Km north of Munoz property and does not everlap.
At this minute nobody is challenging Munoz property rights in any court, all the claims have already been dropped after investigation.
Also, our topic was not about the land, it was about the morality of killing turtles and cooking them for sale; this started because I see that many of us, take this ban as a shalow thing, like if the bad thing is that she was caught cooking a big stew pot, with 2 bloody shells and two turtle heads in her trash can, all this in a restaurant full of people waiting for the food.
You acuse me of being biased, but I see a lot of bias from people who do not personally know the real facts or Mr. Munoz or the whole story.
Also you acuse Munoz of drug connections and say it as if you know it for a fact; if you knew him, you will know it is exactly the oposite, he is on the other side and I know that Olivia use Crack and cocaine because I have been there and I know that with Munoz, he don't even smoke cigaretes and drugs are out of the question.
My friends, any one of you have access to DEA, just ask for the two of them, you will get a very different opinion about both of them; there Mr. Munoz is known as Mr. Munoz while Olivias is known as "La Vaquera" and her Mafia realtive as "El Gordo" and just look at the records there.
Of course I am angry, but I am mad about those drug landings on our beach at 3:30 AM, the roberies and violence against all of us, who suposedly came to Baja to a paradise.
I also know a lot of people who think Olivia is a nice people, but not many Mexicans think like that, or for that matter any person who lives on Buenaventura beach Mexican or American.


posted on 4-16-2009 at 02:00 PM

tripledigitken
Don't worry, Munoz is not selling, but fore sure if it comes to that, I will any time buy a house from Mr. Munoz without losing my sleep and with time I asure you, this place is going to be one of the safest and legal places on Baja, we are not just reading newspapers, we are doing something and yes I am extremely biased against killing turtles and losing my house to Olivia.
posted on 4-16-2009 at 02:02 PM

I forgot, slender is when you tell lies, just try to prove any of my words as a lie, you would find even more and more on the same direction, that is why I became bias, I wasn't, now I am, because I investigated myself.

posted on 4-16-2009 at 02:04 PM


Also Jesee, others already noticed it, why are you so adamant on defending her? what is your bias or hiden interest?

posted on 4-16-2009 at 02:19 PM

Bajajack
all of us give a cram, we live here and we ant to live in a lawful place, that is why we are in board, reading about Baja

posted on 4-16-2009 at 02:51 PM

Bajagringo
You are right, you did not said anything on Mafia, but we are discussing a topic here and others did it and I asure you the one who said it, got the point
It looks like many of our board friends make questions, but don't like the answers from people who are there and when it involves personal action, they preffer to just talk, but we who live here have to act and that is why we know every fact and when you get personally involved, sooner or latter you make your descision on where to stand and I am there, I know where I am standing and what I want, a clean and safe and drug free Baja with all its beauty parts in place for now and the future; here we are just talking, but you ask questions that have an answer that cost us a lot of actions and money to investigate.
Of course sooner or latter Olivia will come in Line, but she will not be able to explain why she killed the turtles or why she kooked them in her restaurant.
On the property question, I know that many of you don't know and don't really care to investigate yourselves, actions are only for the affected people like me or my neighbors, but if you are not ready to make a judgement, don't give opinions on matters that you are not ready to corroborate and give a first hand opinion; here in internet, we have the responsability to say the true facts we know, but also you can be questioned by anybody, even with fool questions or by people not really concerned who just say worng things, but that is the beauty of Internet, it is free speech, just if you ask, be ready to analyze the information you get back and this is not for you Bajagringo, is fo all of our board friends.


posted on 4-16-2009 at 03:00 PM
Jesee
you afirm that both are wrong, do you personally know any of them to afirm that any of them are wrong? I do, I know both of them and read the same newspapers, only I have first hand information, I am here and I can tell you, she in free on bail, Propesca will fine her $750,000 pesos, Profepa something similar and Semarnap will close her retaurant forever and those are news you will read in the same newspapers in the near future.
You really want to be able to say who is wrong, just go to the Agrarian Tribunal there in La Paz and ask, even the dogs outside know about this, but get first hand information and then tell us what you found.


posted on 4-16-2009 at 10:30 PM

Bajagringo
To Munoz, I consider him as a friend but he is also my landlord, and you will find that same answer from all the house tenants in Buenaventura beach, to Munoz Industries, I would like to have a relationship, but no, sorry for me but I don't have any.



posted on 4-16-2009 at 10:49 PM


Skipjakjoe
About the turtles you are completely wrong since we have always tried to protect the sea turtles, some times when the fishermen bring the turtles for sale as meat, only some times they have them all tied up but alive and on those ocasions I have paid for them as meat and then released them in to the sea, they sell them for as little over a hundred dollars a big one and when I have them I do it; the crime is to harm them, not to pay to release them; all my neighbors really care about the Bahia Concepcion enviroment, it is our yard, I snorkel a lot, the same as them and the rays and the turtles are a joy to watch free, but the ray killings ar very high too.
On Olivia, she deserve this and more; I wont do anything to create her a harm but she do it herself prety good anyway.
If Olivia were a good neighbor, she may stay there forever as it concern to me, but she is not, she is the debil in paradise; I know she used to be better but her actions dictate our feelings; we used to go to her restaurant with Feliciano and have a good time, but now it is imposible, she is always high on something; she used to be beautyful, but just look at her now.
Anyway, now she is a known liar and an adict who cant control herself and that is why she have not been able to reach an agreement with Munoz; I know that he at one time he offered her $50,000 USD to avoid conflicts but, she went and started the fight; just a few days ago, in front of me, Munoz asked her to propose something within reason and the next day she started with the lies in the newspaper about closing the beaches.
What would you do with a neighbor like that? love her? No, I don't even apreciate her now and as soon as she go out of Buenaventura, the better for everybody, she is just prolonging her agony.



posted on 4-17-2009 at 07:31 AM

buenaventura



To all concerned; yes, I have been involved in many different and some very bad situations, affecting my business for more de 19 years, my reputation, my image and my life of all the ones I love including our families and friends. I am not going to tell you all of the details of this lately federal offense that indeed happened in my restaurant on Saturday April 11th, Easter weekend, because is and going to be under investigation. I am working in my restaurant and my business is open that’s a big plus, yes it is a huge felony and you don’t stay out to tell the story, you go straight to a federal prison and might be 1 to 9 years in jail, but who ever is trying to nail me down didn’t do it right. I was not selling “soup”, I DID NOT KNOW because the food was bring to my restaurant cooked and ready to be serve, I was not making money with it, it was for a group of Mexican families from Ensenada and they were going to pay for the drinks and service as well for the use of the facilities of the beach and restaurant. The officials from Pesca and Sagarpa including the marines were there for hours and DID NOT find any illegal and/or out of season species in my freezers or refrigerators, what they found in a pick-up truck outside the restaurant in the garbage containers was these plastic bag with parts of a turtle, 2 heads, 4 fins and the chest or bottom part of it, NO BLOOD OR GUTS. Also parts were in a plastic bag type that I do not have here. No other parts were found.

Someone called after dropping off a blue covered pot at my restaurant and said “there is a pot blue with turtle at Buenaventura. Parts of turtle in trash, and drugs under the computer.

Rafael Munoz “el mano negra” mentions that I have several reports in Mulege for different “crimes” but HE does’nt say that he is the one that made all these accusations against me and fail in all of them.

If anyone has questions about me and wants to know more about these nightmare feel free to come to my restaurant, because I am not going to play this BS that Munoz plays.

Muchas gracias, Olivia Higuera.


posted on 4-17-2009 at 08:10 AM

I am very proud of my wife Olivia who is 51 years. I think she has done very well against Munoz. We have been dealing with this individual for nearly seven years. Now with reading his posts some of you know what we have enured for all these years.

I have some handsome pictures of Rafael Munoz that i would like to share. How do i attach to a post?


posted on 4-17-2009 at 06:28 PM

Well the poachers appeared
Mark is saying now that I am a bodyguard, hope I look like one at least; well it is hard to be a bodyguard for Munoz when I am here in Buenventura while he has been in New York for 3 weeks now, don't you think? Mark I saw you a couple of times today, you even told me you will do something against my life and Munoz life yesterday, don't you remember? and you claim that you know Munoz is not here, something that is true, rare on yourself but true this time; you don't make any sense but we are begining to uncover you and really understand you.
Last time you were saying that Olivia was cooking the stew for your own consumption in Loreto and now you are saying that it was already prepared and was going to be served for some Ensenada families.
I would like to know any person here in this board who knowing that it is illegal sea turtle will serv it in his house.
Well, I can now call you a poacher and a liar freely and you know I will do it to your face, it is not the first time.
Concerning your brush with the Mexican army, why don't you tell them that that day 2 boats were being unloaded ar 3:30 Am on your ramp and when you saw that some people were looking at you, everybody ran; of course the the military arrived late because miraculously the hotel telephone was burned that same morning and the hotel pick up tires were punctured; I know, random events of course.
You start not looking like victims anymore.


posted on 4-17-2009 at 06:36 PM

O and Caboron
we have heard those screams coming from Olivia's restaurant several times and also a nice pigy was killed there very cold fashion by Mark, with a knife; I was unable to even touch jam for a month after that; also remember that you killed one our little dogs, only 3 months old with a shovel Mark; just don't try to hide it, it is showing this time all over the place.


posted on 4-17-2009 at 06:42 PM

Just to check on the Sudcaliforniano news, we went today to Santa Rosalia to fix our phone and just for fun went to Santa Ines the place where the newspaper claim Munoz took some houses, for your information, there, they don't even know who Munoz is; then how is it possible that El Sudcaliforniano keep printing your screams every time, even if they are not true and this one anyone can check, just look for somebody from that area, even you Mark.


posted on 4-17-2009 at 06:44 PM


Oliguacamole or bether said Olivia Higuera Aguilar, I am intense because it is illegal to kill sea turtles and the turtles losses can not be cut like you cut their necks; what do you feel when they scream Olivia?

osted on 4-17-2009 at 07:00 PM

BajaGringo please read and see that even Olivia and Mark know me, they said that I am Munoz bodyguard but I am not fore sure I don't have the body or the training; she is calling me her neighbor don't you see and yes we are neighbors and we know each other very well and I know them too well for their own good by now.
you try to make an issue because we use Munoz computer to write, sorry but everything here is his property, even the computers and satellite connection and email accounts; please don't try to confuse the fact that we are talking about protecting the eviroment here, that is the topic, don't loose it.

posted on 4-17-2009 at 07:09 PM

Well, I se Olivia just went offline without answering, she noticed that she inclriminated herself, well, remember when I told you that she does the worst harm to herself; I rest my case, good night.


posted on 4-17-2009 at 07:15 PM


O and Olivia, now that you mention the end of lower Agrarian court trials, dont forget to tell them that those cases are against us your neighbors, that you are trying to take our homes from us and collect $250,000 USD from each one of us, you lost against Munoz, but you are still going against us; just go to court and see that our appeal is in, so don't be so happy so soon.



posted on 4-17-2009 at 11:50 PM

Ok, Bajagringo, you keep on believing that I am Munoz, even if it has no consequence for this discussion, but for your information, the Munoz Industries email is the email used here at the hotel for reservations by internet and is very public; the hotel and everything incluiding the computers are Munoz Property, and I mean the houses where we live too; if you want to communicate with Munoz, you have to use the same email and that is director@munoz-industries.com and that will come to the hotel also, he has private emails, but just email him direct and he will answer, he reads everything and he has always been a gentlemen; also his english is a lot better than mine, but lets keep to our topic.
Today the Hotel Buenaventura got an email from Green Peace and they are going to press the federal authorities to make an example of these poachers and also from other pro nature organizations that have read about this HERE and came through the hotel webpage and yes through the same Munoz emails that we can see here.
Looks like the poachers are not going to have it as easy as they tought; closing of the restaurant is asured and voiding of the Federal Zone concesion a must.
I also found out that killing a turtle has a heavier penalty than killing a human; if you kill a human and show at least some self preservation you will stay only 2 to 4 years in jail while a killing a turtle carry a 12 years jail sentence, more fore who cook it, sell it and or transport it.
I also called Munoz about this conversation I have been having and he will enter the board in the next few days; looks like I am a lot more expresive than he is.


posted on 4-18-2009 at 12:54 PM

My friends, for that matter, at one time I was corossing the border Tijuana San Diego with new boots bought in Tijuana, those were turtle leather; at the San Ysidro border entrance, Customs confiscated my boots and didn't charged me, but I was afraid to looose my greencard then; happyly I was able to demostrate that I had just bought the boots in a legal shoe store and I know that that store was closed a few weeks later, so it is no easy thing to posses, transport, sale or even use sea turtle products.
Actually the law forbids the harrasing, catching, harming, sale and transportation of sea turtles or its products or derivates; if you have an old shell, it is not a crime as long as you don't transport it, sale it or cross the border with it.
On the other side, Olivia was catched with two fresh LOODY shells from 2 sea turtles, being cooked on her restaurant stove in a big pot, with the two real fresh heads in the kitchen INSIDE trash container; also she accept that she was warming it as a favor to some Ensenada families who were inside her restaurant for free while every person who know Olivia must know that she would never do that for free, that is an imposibility, she always charge for everything, no exception and even her friends know that.
My friends, also note that the hotel has no telephone at this moment, since last boat unlodading on Olivia's Restaurant and the Propesca raid was after that, so the tip could not have come from the Buenaventura hotel and we know that the only other telephone 15 miles orround is in Olivia's restaurant, so the tip must have come from her restaurant, maybe one customer or employee or husband of her did it and since she charge for telephone use, she must know who did the on time calls.
Also, Mark was not there very conveniently and since he is the restaurant co owner, or at least he say that, it is extrange, don't you think.
But anyway, they are known poachers now, they even accept that they had the Sea Turtle in their restaurant for their customers service free or not, they say free, but that is hard to believe even for her adamant protectors here.
The real question is, Do we condone the actual serving of Sea Turtle in a restaurant today???????
It is not a matter that in the past we like it or not, because I used to like it; not as a tradition, because it was not; they just were selling it all over Tijuana; it was not like turky tradition, we just were able to get it anyplace; of course in Baja, if you went to an able home, they will offer the best and that was Sea Turtle, now they offer shrimp the same way, or fish; Sea Turtle was not a tradition, it was the best at that time; now only the ones who are able to brake the law with impunity do it, being a corrupt governor or politician, but it is like inviting you to be their associate in crime.
We are not loosing tradition when we are not able to serve Sea Turtle in our homes, we can still make that dish, they call it Cahuamanta; it taste the same, the flavor is the same except it is made of fish, ray meat and beef' so the tradition can continue without the Sea Turtles participation.
When all over the world the lawmakers in our representation, baned the Sea Turtles from our tables and menus, it was for a reason; the sea turtles were being hunted to extintion; one way or the other, the Sea Turtles were gone from the tables, also they have become extremely expensive.
So we have not lost a tradition, we have not lost the excuisite dish and we are very willing to see the turtles sweeming in the sea, very alive.
We just need to take a step in to an active position and really protect the remaining sea turtles with our condoning or repudiating the ones that break that law, being a governor, a politician, a policeman, a restaurant owner or a friend who serve it at home when he invite you. that is the question for us here ???????????


posted on 4-18-2009 at 01:36 PM

Baja gringo
Still unable to solve that one; if you check in the internet Munoz curriculum vitae, you will notice that he is a Civil Engineer, an attorney at law, speaks spanish, english and some italian; also he studied Physics, Electromechanical engineering, a lot of computng systems and know several programing languages; does that sound like a guy who can do that and more ? and of course would not make as many mistakes as the humble of me.
Anyway, just listen to Olivia and Mark, the interested parties, they KNOW ME, they think I am his bodyguard, but are unable to explain how come the bodyguard is enjoying the Baja beaches while the principal in in New York; doesent sound like the bodyguards I see in the movies at least.



posted on 4-18-2009 at 04:06 PM

Baja Gringo
I would prefer to remain out of this discussion for now, because there is an ongoing Federal investigation about the facts being discussed here. But as an attention to my friend Eddy, I will make a small contribution of the facts known to be true, I know Eddy was there himself and he is not a liar as far as I know, so I also think the same way he does, so just take his worlds as mine too, Olivia and Mark know I am not afraid of telling it to their faces also, I have done it many times.
Baja gringo, What you know, is where an Internet protocol (IP) is assigned, and it is assigned where it enter the Physical Internet network, when it is dynamic and uploaded to a satellite connection, It goes up the satellite stream in pockets and then down at the Internet Service Provider (ISP) where it is assigned the Dynamic IP, where it enters the physical network; and since my Satellite Service Provider for Buenaventura Hotel is in Tijuana, it is not bizarre you find that. Also, you will find that, if you locate the dynamic IP for my personal computer which is where I am sending this comment from, it will always be in Tijuana. I have a contract for wireless broadband connection with Telcel in Tijuana and that means, that from any place in continental America, it goes through the 3G Cellular networks, all the way to Tijuana and then it enters there to the physical Internet network. So, I may be in any place in the world and as long as I use that connection, the dynamic IP is going to be a Tijuana assigned; so much for you as a spy. But this is just a technical distraction since the main issue is solved, I uphold Eddie’s words as mine and he has my permission to use my Hotel Buenaventura address and connections. Just take it as if I had said it; Is that enough for you?
Please, Eddie has a big mouth but, he seems to feel like he needs to set the record straight, I don’t. Your comments here do not affect me, in any way, I only do it because it is not fair that you keep putting in doubt Eddie’s ideas, just because you don’t believe he is who he is. He is and has my complete support if that is what you wanted to know, he is also not my bodyguard, he is shorter than me, I am the martial arts expert, not him, it would work better the other way around.
Why do we know so much about Olivia’s investigation? Because I have several of my attorneys looking for ways that the law is not violated here. She has done it locally for years, Federal is another sphere and she was caught by several law enforcement organizations with interlocking actions and interest. Also, we have a presidential directive to fight organized crime and nature organizations are starting to act against her.
Why she was caught? She was caught, because she is under a Federal police microscope, for her boat unloading at 3:00 AM since years ago and this is not a secret anyplace anymore. They were unable to catch her last time, but for sure the whole deal was observed by law officials and at that time, it was no longer my say or my friends say anymore, everything else is a consequence.
Why is she so upset about me, because I put a whole system of cameras, even robotic cameras with 250 x zoom and starlight with the stream uploaded to internet instantly and that system has been recording all her movements for months, including all the law officials’ visits after the landings? This data is not in my possession anymore, so don’t get any ideas.
Mark, you try to appear like a hurt husband by unfair attacks on your poor wife. Those accusations have been there for years, and as I remember, you ran from me every time I catch you in my property, not in a rhetoric way, you really run fast. Also, tell us why you are with a lady 20 years older than you, that is by far no longer a beauty even if she was when she was younger and not so much in to drugs, I recognize. Also, many people saw you very happy when she was arrested saying that you were now the owner.
Olivia may be many things, including now a poacher, but she has always been a lady, why are you so afraid that she may make a deal with me? Remember last time when you practically dragged her from my presence, when she told me she wanted a deal? Mark, act like a gentlemen and let the lady off, you are never going to be a millionaire as you dreamed; the lady deserves a fair chance in life, you are making her make life changing mistakes.


*****posted on 4-21-2009 at 03:19 PM

This is Rafael Muñoz Martinez, since a lot of what is said here is always put in doubt, I want to share some verifiable information from reputable sources, sorry it is in Spanish, but I don’t want somebody to say I miss translated:
--------------------------------------
De: Everardo Mariano Melendez <emariano@conanp.gob.mx>
Fecha: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:19:42 -0500
Para: Aarón Esliman <aaron@grupotortuguero.org>, Everardo Mariano Melendez <ever1234@hotmail.com>, Ernesto Israel Popoca Arellano <epopoca@conanp.gob.mx>
Asunto: RE: Restaurante sorprendido vendiendo Caguama en Bahia Concepcion, Mulege B.C.S.

Hola Aarón,

Efectivamente fueron detenidas dos personas del sexo femenino, con pruebas evidentes de dos tortugas que preparaban para guiso de caguama, fueron remitidas ante el ministerio público federal por delitos ambientales, la PGR atrajo el caso y hasta lo último que supe fueron procesadas. Se les encontró en el acto y con las evidencias periciales.

En Loreto nos pidieron ayuda para buscar depositarios del producto y le fue turnado el caso a PROFEPA. Me parece que este tipo de revisiones a restaurantes debiese ser con mayor frecuencia y poner una alerta que tanto es culpable quien la captura como quien la consume.

Estamos en contacto!

Saludos.
Ever

Everardo Mariano Meléndez
Encargado del Despacho
Parque Nacional Bahía de Loreto
Tel: (613) 11350477
Paseo Pedro de Ugarte S/N
Col. Misioneros.
Loreto, B.C.S.



-----Mensaje original-----
De: Aarón Esliman [mailto:aaron@grupotortuguero.org]
Enviado el: mié 15/04/2009 17:40
Para: Everardo Mariano Melendez; Everardo Mariano Melendez; Ernesto Israel Popoca Arellano
Asunto: FW: Restaurante sorprendido vendiendo Caguama en Bahia Concepcion, Mulege B.C.S.

Hola Ever, me acaba de llegar esto, sabes algo de este asunto, creo que
sería bueno investigar por allá que apso con esto, se ve bastante feo y me
encantaría poder contestar algo a este cuate. Se los encargo mucho.
Saludos
Aarón
----------------------------
So I am not making it up, and Olivia was caught in fraganti cooking the Sea Turtle stew pot in her restaurant for sale to a lot of people, detained, put in jail and she is free on bail, pending the administrative and criminal sanctions. Also, it makes clear that Mexican reputable Nature Organizations are promoting the checking and pressing for the convictions, not me.
Some of you are right, Olivia or Oliguacamole just lost the little credibility she had here, because she invented something without knowing the Middle Eastern costumes; the true is that I almost always use a glove, because of an industrial accident that happened in one of my business; I am a Civil engineer, but also studied Law and I am an attorney at law, but as I say, I studied law to protect myself from my own attorneys, so it happened to me when saving an employee of mine; I have my hand, so it is also false that I don’t have it or chopped off; it was burned and I can’t control the temperature, so it does not get cold I almost always use the glove but I have the use of it, it is even evident on the photo Olivia shared with you and the Sudcaliforniano and it is becoming clear who try to deceive you.
On the fact that Eddie said that I own my 1000 Has. Lot since 1971 when I was 18 years old, it is only partially true, because I claimed the property at that time, but my private property title was issued in 1988 and a complement on 1992; I bought it from the Federal Government and the validity of it was checked by the Federal Police and a Federal Judge thanks to Olivia and Mark, who denounced me formally of having a falsified title and at this moment the Federal Police and the Federal Judge declared my title lawful; Olivia Know of it because that is the cause why the Ejido La Purisima, dropped their claims against my title and me; also because in my file, they in 1985 ageed to my limits and signed and put their seal in agreement on an official document, so I have no quarrel with the Ejido and if Olivia is part of the Ejido she should have done the same, but she is trying to collect from my American tenants, but that is a legal battle that do not affect me and should not be part of this.
On Federal Zone, there you are in my knowledge sphere, It is very important for you who live near the sea to know what is Federal Zone and what is not: Federal zone according to the law, is a 20 mts. strip of land measured WHEN THE COAST HAS A BEACH AND THE SOLID GROUND BESIDE THE BEACH IS LESS THAN 30 DEGREES; ONLY THERE THE FEDERAL ZONE WILL BE MEASURED; this is very important because if there is no beach there is no Federal Zone and you should not pay for it and this is the law since 1992 by decree; I know that this is not exactly the information the Federal Zone officials want you to know, because what you pay for it, is in some cases 30% of the city income as is in Rosarito Beach; there, I as an expert witness won the cases for Castillos del Mar and others, so it is a tested in court true; they want everybody to believe that the Federal Zone is 20 mts. From the sea, but it is not, since on cleefs there is no Federal Zone, or where the solid ground is more than 30 degrees there is also not a Federal Zone. (If you need details, just write me and I will give you exact details on the law.)
Another very important fact on Federal Zone is that even if you have the Federal Zone concession, you cannot charge for people using it or crossing it, you can only use the consession only for the use authrized; also it is unlawful to sub lease any part of a concession; Federal Zone if public property and no way around it; also you cannot sell alcohol on it or rent houses on it since it would be sub leasing; nobody can charge you for going to the beach, they can rent you an umbrella, but they cannot prevent you from using it. Then you the Wagon Masters here will say “O but you charge” it is true, I charge you for overnight parking your buses on my property, because I have a parking permit but if you go on foot and leave your bus on the highway, nor me, or anybody can prevent you from using the beach, any land owner by law have to allow people to walk to the beach, not by car, walk; you can see that the hotels always leave a narrow passage to the beach, enough to walk but not for vehicles, but in my case I allow free parking on my property during the day and only when you stay overnight I charge them and that because they use the bathroom and the water cost me, since I bring it by truck from Mulege 30 miles north.
Olivia does not have a parking permit because it is forbidden to park or use vehicles on the Federal Zone, you can only park or drive vehicles on the property, out of federal zone and she has not been noticing that I allow her customers to park on my property without paying, but I can legally close her access to the restaurant at any time I want. She even has to ask for my permission to cross my property and I have a letter signed by her, asking for that permission and if she denies it I can show it, it was signed by her in front of a Navy Captain who also signed as witness.
I know that most of what Olivia do is because she don’t know the law and its details and that is why I say that if I disagree with her, she has always been a lady, not a true telling lady but a lady.
Also so you can understand me, the Property tax on my property is $850,000 USD a year and that is way over the $5000 USD they pay and those prices were put there by the lawmakers and that is done to force people to develop the valuable properties, but we will never do it with places like Olivia there that cannot be moved or have a real money obligation according to what they prevent.
On the fact that she got the Federal Concession, I can comment and prove that she paid for that concession with the hotel funds and the payments are in the Hotel accounting books and if she is not the Hotel owner, she took personal advantage of being at one time the Hotel manager, with a power of attorney only (hope she does not denies it because I have a public notary document where she accept that, “she does not own any part of the hotel”). Also just consider, I have a $750,000 USD investment in the hotel, pay taxes on the hotel and the property, while she rent a Federal Zone house without paying any taxes, because it is unlawful to do it, she sells liquor without paying for a federal permit or tax and she uses my property as her parking, because in Federal zone, she has no area, because she use it with buildings, that cannot be there, because in Federal zone you cannot put permanent buildings.


posted on 4-22-2009 at 02:09 PM


Good question. From Oliguacamoles's Own words, or Olivia's or Mark own words here, they accepted and said here that they were going to serve the stew to a group of Ensenada families, now the turtle was planted, make up your mind, because you lies are showing up here Olivia.
Ok you made a big mistake, just accept it; you know it will cost you a lot of money, but I don't think more than that, depending on how good they got you and how hard the Nature organizations press to make an example of you, but you know that usually that do not happen, so just tell the true story.
by the way the black hotel's truck is in Loreto at the mechanic, do you want to check, also all my employees are in the hotel if you want to check also.
I also agree that the people who was waiting to eat the turtles should have been prosecuted and Olivia must know who they are since she was making them a really big favor by warming the turtle stew; you will do that free only for people who are very familiar with you so just ask them to come forward and take the heat from you; if you don't know them, it means that it was for sale
Olivia, you are hanging yourself with your own words
Also Mark, you threatened my employees yesterday in Mulege at the tire store with killing them like it will happen to me; how is it that you are very brave only with women, why don you threaten me in my face next time you see me instead of runing like like you always do ???????? many people say you are a nice guy, but nice guys do not threaten to kill people, or they do??? let see you next time and you know you will see me.

posted on 4-22-2009 at 09:58 PM

Mark, this is not the first time you do it, only most of the times you do it in a situation where there is your word against some one else and you never were brave enough to try it with me, but several times you have done it to women working in the hotel, only this time you did it in town, in front of another people and in front of the tire store employees who were able to confirm that you went to them while changing a tire; I mention it this time because you did it in public in in front of withness in a demostrabe way.
I know, dog that barg don't bite but what boders me is that this NICE GUY who sells sea turtle, do it only to women while always run when confronted with men; you by experience know that you can not fight with me, you went down at the first blow last time you tried to atack us, Juan also put you down when you atacked the mail man but that is no excuse to now do it exclusively with woman.
I own the place with property titles, I have a Hotel, you have only a concession on a 20 mts strip that belong to public property; you violate the law in several ways, who do you think will go?
I have never even bothered your employees, but you know you do it all the time up to the point of going in to my hotel to tell people that you rent a house cheaper, or you will denie it too Mark?

posted on 4-22-2009 at 10:01 PM

Sorry, but I have no court date, it is only Olivia Against 4 Americans from who she is trying to take their house; since the Ejdio droped their claims against me, I am not a part of the claims; she was claiming that my titles were false and those have already proved true, so I have no court apointment, I won already; sorry I ca not say the same for the 4 Americans.
yes it may be boring, but this board is 11 pages long with a lot of people saying something



posted on 4-25-2009 at 09:50 AM

ELINVEST8
1.- Olivia and Mark quit bringing and selling drugs to Buenaventura beach
2.- She and Mark quit acting like gangsters
3.- Let the District Atorney solve all the claims for good or bad, do not brive them.
4.- Quit bothering the Americans about their houses in Agrarian Court.
5.- Just stay in Federal Zone, do not invade my property
6.- One extra sorry DO NOT HARM AMIMALS.

Are those so difficult???? I think they are.




posted on 4-26-2009 at 11:30 PM

ELINVEST8
1.- We have seen the boats unloadings at 3 AM and I mean law enforcement officers and me but soon she will se about that.
2.- Friday, Mark did not let Mr. Thad Braxton put his boat in the water because he was going to give two mexicans a ride, he threatend my life and his with 2 more witnesses and the formal complain will be presented to the district attorney tomorrow, Wednesday he threatened 2 of my employees in Mulege in front of other people; is that acting as a gangster enough.
3.- Because we have 8 formal complains against Olivia and Mark for robery, robery with violence, lying to judicial authorities, damages and she has one from Jimmy Rusell for wounds with intent to kill and the complains have been lost several times, never acte upon or sent to the judge with obvious flaws to be rejected; the Estate District attorney is under invesigation at this time for those flaws that are allowing Olivia and Mark to be free.
4.- The houses are in my property and at this time my prpperty is beyond doubt thanks to her, not in Federal Zone.
5.- She on a daily basis, croses over my property with her verhicles, use my property and do not attend warnings no to use my property; if you try to stop her, she will attack you with violence, that is why she have so many formal complains; she try to build a house over my property and there is a formal complain for that too, we stoped them.
6.- Yes, Mark killed a pig on a very sadistic way with a knife, the pig was like a pet for everybody, he killed one of our dogs ith a shovel in front of several people and there are morebut not to my personal experience.

1.- Her claim for rent on American people living IN MY PROPERTY, when the Ejido dropped its claims because it was proved that my property is NOT EJIDO LAND and Olivia's contract is one mile north of my property.
4.0 you can see El Sudcaliforniano, she has published 8 columns first page 7 times lies against me that were proved false by the authorities.
6.- The property title was proved true by the Federal Police and the federal judge, if it had not hapened that way, I would be in jail at this time, there is no open investigation against me for that, all the charges proved false; she has acused me of taking the property from her but her charges have been dropped because I have proved to be the legal owner while she only has a private contract with the ejido for a piece of land 1 mile north of mine.

posted on 4-27-2009 at 10:54 PM

You are certainly right, those acts are being denounced to the proper authorities, but there the problem arises, she buy them.
Today she invaded my property again, she is trying to build with heavy equipment over Federal one even if that is forbiden by law, I will send you soon photos of these acts.
My friends, the poor turtles are being forgoten by the authorities but not for long since I know paper is flying from one office to the other, soon those will reach Olivia and maybe the turtles will be vindicated and their sacrifice will serve to save some others.
Well from now on I will just report new acts of vandalism by Olivia with proff.
Why I do it? why do you think?, if she can commit any crime and not be prosecuted, the only defense is making it public, don't you agree?
it is simple.


posted on 4-28-2009 at 06:22 PM

Sorry Pescador, but to talk you have to know.
A concession is the right to DO the activity being allowed by it, but it does not mean you own the place; if you build a ramp in Federal Zone, you are building on Public property and the instant you build it, it belongs to Public Property and nobody can charge for the use of public property or deny the use of public property. Also there can be several different concessions for different people on the same area, for different uses. The ignorance of the law is what makes Olivia make so many mistakes, but it is as easy as to just read the concession papers.
Today those guys not allowed to use the ramp, talked to the Federal Zone and Mulege City officials, they asked them to make a formal complaint against the American, who did, that because it is a Federal Offense, a city violation and a Federal Zone violation; the City major will watch that the District attorney do fallow the law in this case because there have been too many incidents on that restaurant El Zargazo where the law was not applied.
The Federal Zone officials also said that Olivia came to them to try to force me to tear down my perimeter fence, but they denied to act because I have proved my property rights beyond any doubt and confirmed that it is unlawful to deny the use of the ramp to any person, since Olivia and Mark only have the right to use it, also said that the ramp is not on Federal Zone, it is in Marine Zone that is National Property, Federal Zone is the strip that start where the high tide water ends and the beach start, where the water at high tide start, is Marine Zone not Federal Zone and absolutely nobody can prohibit the access to a Marine Zone.
Also Mark (American) and Olivia (Mexican) are lying about not charging or pretending not to charge for people having lunch at the beach, they continually try but are not allowed by us, at least in front of my hotel, we have stopped them hundreds of times, specially Mark and think how a Mexican National feel when an American come and talk to him in English and try to charge him for the use of the beach or out with the police, he had a lot of problems with people, but he is good at intimidating people, specially women, those are his specialty.


posted on 4-28-2009 at 06:46 PM


Mark, why dont you take me to court to make me tear down my fence? or why don't you complain in criminal court for me putting it up?
O but you did try it, but were turned away because you have no right to any land and I have demostrated that I own the place; wel keep trying.
I put the perimeter fence around my property because it is my right to do so and you weren't able to do anything against it, because you are not the owners of anything.
At this time you only have the right to use the Federal Zone to sell food but ONLY in movable structures, in other words in a movable cart, not in permanent buildings, that is against the law because you deny the right to use it to other persons, just read your concession.
I know you were bribing the Federal Zone guys, but new and honest are coming from Mexico City to see if you are using the Federal Zone in the way you are allowed to, and do you know why they are comming, because your newspaper articles


posted on 4-28-2009 at 06:54 PM

For those that remember the Turtles, Mexico City District Attorney asked today for the L

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-14-2010 at 02:29 AM

Jesse can you explain in plain English what you are saying in your last post above. It was kind of cryptic. Can you give us the Who, What, Where, When, Why and How of what you mean. Thank you!

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-14-2010 at 04:27 AM

Spot on Wesson group...Great job getting it all in chronological order. As I have said before some people in here are SHEEPLE and no matter what is shown to them they will continue to believe what they believe.

Rafael you have every God given right to continue posting your thoughts in here as do the others who do not agree with your side of the issue. Keep posting as you deem appropriate and screw the people who call you a thief and a liar. I'm sure they would not want to be face to face with you and call you a thief and a liar. For you cowards in here that insist Rafael Muñoz Martinez is a thief and a liar, and post those opinions of him in here please feel free to contact him in u2u to arrange a meeting where you can go see him face to face and call him a thief and a liar you Keyboard Billy BadAss Wannabes. Go ahead...

ramuma53 - 7-14-2010 at 06:48 AM

Jesse the cooky liar
It is hard to understand you, but knowing that you always try to do the wrong thing, I get what you try to imply, that I have worked for some guys that some people say were bad people.

Castillos del Mar that belong to Juan Ernesto Corona Flores, Corona Plaza hotels owner; well, he was a businessman with legal business, his brother was the CANACO president and a very respected Tijuana businessman also; some say he had mafia connections, but that is because his name is the same as one of the CAF cartel family members; Corona is a very common Mexican name so it is not extraordinary and if you want that kind of misguiding connections, my name Rafael Muñoz and it was also the name for the Eastern Mexico drug lord, only his second name was Talavera and mine is Martinez, we had absolutely no family connections, at least I think so.
If you mean it because I took the case for El Oasis that supposedly belonged to El Caballo, one of the CAF members, I have to tell you that my technical team took it to help Lic. Ballin, a very respected Baja attorney who sold that property and being pressed to demonstrate that it was his property, we took the case and very few people may say something bad about him, because he was the Political master mind behind every Baja governor, from the first to Roberto de la Madrid and when he went out of that position PRI political party lost the Estate; so I have nothing to hide.

If you mean CFE, that is the Federal government and you do not mean they are crooked? Do you? Well, maybe a little but not in the way you imply.

But, so you can explain yourself why I took all those cases, I took them because all of them are the same against Ejido Mazatlan as Playa Encantada wrongly known as La Joya del Mar; there I honed my then legal thesis and turned them in to court tasted legal true that will be used against La Joya del Mar very soon and I mean:
The Ejido Mazatlan does not have any land.
The Ejido Maztlan had a virtual execution, meaning no execution and meaning they received no land.
La Joya del Mar is in National Land
All the Technical works that supposedly describe Ejido Mazatlan are wrong technically; meaning the Ejido Mazatlan does not have a single valid technical work.
The whole land strip from Rosarito to Punta Banda in Ensenada is National Land, pending to be legalized, no private property exists there, but a few exceptions already with National land title.

Also I do not see the Sea turtle connection on your implied question???

Jessy the cooky liar, you just look more and more desperate every day, you lack any kind of argument or even intelligence; please ask your bosses the turtle killers and drug dealers to please send us a better advocate, you do not challenge us anymore.

[Edited on 7-14-2010 by ramuma53]

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-14-2010 at 11:40 AM

Jesse I do support whole heartedly the documents Rafael provided and that is all I have said I support. Of course we all have at least one skeleton or another in our collective closest even you must have one or two. Please expound and give us the Who, What, Where, When, Why and How of what you meant in your above post. Are you saying that Rafael Munoz represented someone of an unsavory character as an attorney, which happens every day around the world, or are you saying Rafael is in bed with criminals? Those are two distinct matters. Can you please clarify to which one you are referring? Thank you

burnrope - 7-14-2010 at 02:26 PM

This thread should have enough postings to make it eligible for it's own forum.

David K - 7-14-2010 at 03:08 PM

Tehag started this thread because of a reported turtle law being broken... Interesting how it was used by ramuma53 to tar and feather two hard working people who actually do something nice for travelers of Hwy. 1.

Go back to Page 1 and read the start of this thread... You will see it was Baja & Back who first made the connection that Muñoz would make this up or cause this to be used to hurt Mark and Olivia.

Is cooking some 'illegal food' really a high crime worthy of jail time and all this public harassment... seriously? A fine is certainly normal for this. From turtle being cooked by a non-employee to drug trafficing to property laws to ??? Muñoz seems to be using some of you to continue HIS crimes against Mark and Olivia. If you want to boycott the restaurant, fine... but don't help this very un-amigo-like person to continue to poison the reputation of hard working business people who many Nomads have met and enjoyed... at least have the fortitude to meet Muñoz and talk with him in-persom before you become his aid ... IMO.

Go back to page 1... the beginning...

KAT54 - 7-14-2010 at 03:28 PM

He FORGED the deed?
He is claiming private property all over?
He fenced and took over private property?
ELINVESTIG8R has a 8 year old mentality?

wessongroup - 7-14-2010 at 04:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Tehag started this thread because of a reported turtle law being broken... Interesting how it was used by ramuma53 to tar and feather two hard working people who actually do something nice for travelers of Hwy. 1.

Go back to Page 1 and read the start of this thread... You will see it was Baja & Back who first made the connection that Muñoz would make this up or cause this to be used to hurt Mark and Olivia.

Is cooking some 'illegal food' really a high crime worthy of jail time and all this public harassment... seriously? A fine is certainly normal for this. From turtle being cooked by a non-employee to drug trafficing to property laws to ??? Muñoz seems to be using some of you to continue HIS crimes against Mark and Olivia. If you want to boycott the restaurant, fine... but don't help this very un-amigo-like person to continue to poison the reputation of hard working business people who many Nomads have met and enjoyed... at least have the fortitude to meet Muñoz and talk with him in-persom before you become his aid ... IMO.

Go back to page 1... the beginning...


Well, I'm glad you finally did... as that was what I posted

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup


Not a clue why one would have these responses to Mr. Munoz’s submission to official documentation, which in fact prove his position, at this time.



A. Mr Munoz publicly accuses Marc and Olivia of drug trafficking and destruction of endangered animals.
B. Mr Munoz provides documents of his real estate ownership as some sort of proof in his case.

What does one have to do with other?

Are we to conclude that because M&O lost their land dispute (if they did) with Mr Munoz they are also guilty of the above crimes?

What documentation are you looking for M&O to provide?

Shouldn't the accuser provide documentation for the crime he's accusing? And not the other way around?

I have to admit that my initial reaction to the display of official documents were "What on earth ...?". But apparently a couple of nomads found them to be pertinent to this case. The only thing they show, in my opinion, is that there is a verry strong likelihood that Mr Munoz has alterior motives that the criminal accusations of M&O stick.

I have no legal background, but aren't those documents the sort of thing a judge would forbid as inadmissable evidence in a court of law because they have nothing to do with the case in hand and tend to bias the jury? Isn't that in fact what Mr Munoz is trying to do with the reader?


For a start... ANY documentation !!!!

As for the other... here is a post dated 4-13-2009 @ 09:59 on the very first page of this thread which "brings up" Mr. Munoz's name and property stealing ... FIRST!!! and was put up by Baja&Back

Barry & Vanda
Baja and Back RV Tours
Vancouver BC Canada / Baja
http://bajaandback.com

This is a quote from the Baja&Back post

"FYI: The guy posting at Bajaforums as "San Buenaventura" is Munoz himself, the person who is trying to steal miles of beachfront in Concepcion by invading and fencing it. He has had a running battle with Mark & Olivia for years. I wouldn't be surprised if he planted the turtle evidence on them, considering his black reputation.
He also sent emails out to baja caravan companies, including us, that we have to pay HIM next year to stay on Bahia Concepcion beaches! I will post his email on this forum when I have replied.
Look for this snake lawyer to show up on Nomads forum soon ..." (searched this forum and Bajaforums for this poster, no results)

In the previous posts on the first page, there is no mention of land and/or Mr Munoz being involved until this post...

So please explain, how one concludes the issue of land ownership was started on THIS thread by Mr. Munoz?

[Edited on 7-11-2010 by wessongroup]


Again, the use of hearsay, conjecture and unsupported statements don't do much for me, in a review of a dispute...

Will again ask, where is the "documentation" to support these acusation made by this individual and/or others? including what knowledge this person has related to the unsupported allegation of "planting" the turtle meat !!!.....

Also the documentation to support Kate54's statements which are followed by a question mark, as to deflect arguments about supporting the statements made, as if the question marks make some real difference in the intent....

One other thing, I spent some time.. copying all of the posts made by the posters that goes by the "handle" of ramuma53 ... if you have not read these posts, I would suggest you should.. as I did not find these posts to be "evil", unsupported, rather attempts to explaining current legal requirements to "owning" land in the Federal Zone, plus insight into the "Political" reality which exist dealing with same, with an underlying emphasis on environmental protection of resources of Mexico.

posted on 7-13-2010 at 10:23 PM page 80

If one does not think there are politics involved in "zoning", "land use", resource development, and the Law Governing same.. then we have a very large disconnect .... it is call Society

As for coming to the "aid" of this individual... I don't believe he or she needs my help at all.... appear to be doing just fine...

My only intent was to try and get this thread way from he said she said.. and into a fact based discussion. With the ultimate goal of allowing all facts to be laid out to be reviewed and to be found true and correct or in fact fraudulent and dismissed from the discussion.

Thus allowing a final determination to be arrived at... at some point in time... the other was not going anywhere...

Some have not seen a Naval Gunboat down here policing drug runners.. have seen these guys a few times off the coast in the Descanso Bay.. this was the first time we saw them.. they were anchored there for 5 days, after cigarette boats were making runs from La Salina to Popotalo/Rosarito



[Edited on 7-15-2010 by wessongroup]

[Edited on 7-15-2010 by wessongroup]

ramuma53 - 7-14-2010 at 04:30 PM

Kat54 the new Jesse the cookie liar
Nice to see your infantile arguments, please try to do it better that the cookie liar, I know now you are liar too, but you need to be at least as active and creative as him or at least a kooky to make it more interesting.

If ELINVETIGA8R has an 8 year old mentality, where do that let you be, an spermatozoid? and a very young and mentally unable too.

David K
Do that mean, you do not care about turtle killings, you are the kind that kills a baby seal without a further thought, only thinking about the buck you are going to get for that fur???? Certainly we do not need more like you.

But I agree they are hard working guys, unloading a drug boat is not easy, more at 3 AM and with the army on your heals and after that spend the next day paying all those policemen who come to collect.
But after that, the nice part comes, days and days of drugs and alcohol to make your brain stupid and she has done it for such a long time with people like you, so much, she is now up forever and a shadow of the beautiful lady she was in the past.
Narc, he has been a stupid from the start, you cannot blame the drugs and do not think I do not say this to his face, just ask him how many times I have done it and he has ran like a rabbit; he is known animal killer, a burglar and a vandal also and those are not insults, those are known adjectives he has with the police and Mexican authorities, but don’t worry he has been trying to become better, something like a killer, only he has no balls.

Remember, going in to the drug industry is easy, you live well for a few years and then you are dead or in jail, the only question is when and which option; it has happened a lot, it is only a matter of time and when you become known and your business is a public matter, the end is near.

Some get smart and go out, but only a few, most go in to the drug business because they not very smart to start, so they do not recognize the signs; this looks like one of those cases.

Just wait and see, some bajanomads even have suggested to make a movie out of this, we can invite you, Jessy the cooky liar and Kat54 as some of the bad guys, what do you think???? Would you do the part????? Say yes, it will be perfect for you.:light:

Well that is if you think at all.:o

Skipjack Joe - 7-14-2010 at 04:52 PM

Mr. Wesson,

What's the point of writing anything when you just keep ignoring it and continue pursuing your own path?

For whatever reason, everyone seems to be entrenched in their viewpoints and any further exchange is wasted effort.

In the end we all need to get along with one another on this board in the future and I refuse to get angry and say something which will affect that (with you and others as well).

Already we are being called liars and cowards for simply not recognizing the 'obvious evidence'. Who needs that?

If you think Mr Munoz is an impartial participant in this entire thing who. like the rest of us, simply wants justice served then you are welcome to your opinion. I don't share it. And I find the documents irrelevant. For previously stated reasons.

Please let's get off the merry-go-round now.

wessongroup - 7-14-2010 at 05:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Mr. Wesson,

What's the point of writing anything when you just keep ignoring it and continue pursuing your own path?

For whatever reason, everyone seems to be entrenched in their viewpoints and any further exchange is wasted effort.

In the end we all need to get along with one another on this board in the future and I refuse to get angry and say something which will affect that (with you and others as well).

Already we are being called liars and cowards for simply not recognizing the 'obvious evidence'. Who needs that?

If you think Mr Munoz is an impartial participant in this entire thing who. like the rest of us, simply wants justice served then you are welcome to your opinion. I don't share it. And I find the documents irrelevant. For previously stated reasons.

Please let's get off the merry-go-round now.


Joe,

Where exactly were YOU called a liar and/or a coward?

Again, please support your statement, give me the link where this occurred.. I know that I have not called you a liar or a coward.. to the best of my knowledge, I don't even know you..

For you to dismiss the need to document as irrelevant.. is of course your own business.. it however does not hold up under scrutiny ... hence the reason for the need to document what events have occurred.... it's called due process...

It would appear that you do not feel that due process is necessary .....

I for one, would not like to live in any place like what you are describing.. As if one does not agree with your position.. then they are automatically wrong, and cannot PROVE themselves innocent, cuz documentation (evidence) doesn't mean anything.. and reading the whole case is to time consuming..

I have asked for the same ground rules for both parties.. if someone says.. that X happened... then support it with a witness, a written statement obtained through credible sources.. along with any and all documents which will prove their case

As for the innocent not having to provide any evidence to support their side of the story.... I find that really quite hard to understand.

I do not reject evidence, I do reject "posts" on an internet bulletin board where people do not even identify themselves with there true name, email addresses, phone numbers, pictures et al...

I'm not afraid to put up my ugly mug, and my wife's... my dogs.. Where I live .. Hell I have a live camera.. you can watch the wife hang out the clothes.. I wear Fruit of the Loom ..

I'm not really afraid of anything, getting old has that effect .... If someone comes by and shoots of stabs me.. or takes my personal possessions.. well, then it will happen... but, I don't live my life in fear, and I certainly don't live my life accusing someone of something without "EVIDENCE"...

Apparently it is no big in many folks book.... it is in mine...

Everyone deserves the same type of Law to protect themselves and others from accusations which are unsupported by fact .. I'm old school, but I'm not into vigilantes yet...

Seems that is what we are talking about.. Law and its implementation in BCS

Sorry you feel, that my request for documentation to support one's statements is such a big deal... and I do not reject out of hand "posts" I have only requested that when someone makes a statement about "what" happened, or "that" someone did something... is supported with something .... not just talk..

I'm not sure you would feel the same way if the positions were reversed...

This is not intended as a means to start a fight, rather to bring one to a conclusion... through simple process called P.O.S.T

Wiley S

David K - 7-14-2010 at 06:51 PM

Wesson, I know... but I was trying to use as few words as possible to get Nomads to do what you wanted (read the beginning)... I did that because if a post is toooo loooong, people get glaze-eyed, and may not bother to read it, knowing they may fall asleep before getting to the end... so for me, short, but sweet works.

Sr. Muñoz, to you this is not about turtle killings... you are here to try and do as much damage to Olivia and Mark as you can. Hoping to reduce their business income and force them to leave so you can grab some more land.

Instead of wasting time on Nomad, start a turtle rescue project at your Bahia Concepcion hotel or other land. See the progect at Bahia de los Angeles for an idea on what to do... It would be GREAT PR for you and a slap in the face to turtle eaters!

Some photos at the turtle project in Bahia de los Angeles... (oh, we love turtles and hope their population rebounds):







As for you, I don't want to be enemies... but you have said so much against Olivia and Mark, that an apology is in order in public, and then you would have my support in your future turtle research project at Bahia Concepcion!

The ball is in your court!
Viva Baja!

DianaT - 7-14-2010 at 07:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Wesson, I know... but I was trying to use as few words as possible to get Nomads to do what you wanted (read the beginning)... I did that because if a post is toooo loooong, people get glaze-eyed, and may not bother to read it, knowing they may fall asleep before getting to the end... so for me, short, but sweet works.

Sr. Muñoz, to you this is not about turtle killings... you are here to try and do as much damage to Olivia and Mark as you can. Hoping to reduce their business income and force them to leave so you can grab some more land.

Instead of wasting time on Nomad, start a turtle rescue project at your Bahia Concepcion hotel or other land. See the progect at Bahia de los Angeles for an idea on what to do... It would be GREAT PR for you and a slap in the face to turtle eaters!

Some photos at the turtle project in Bahia de los Angeles... (oh, we love turtles and hope their population rebounds):







As for you, I don't want to be enemies... but you have said so much against Olivia and Mark, that an apology is in order in public, and then you would have my support in your future turtle research project at Bahia Concepcion!

The ball is in your court!
Viva Baja!


You are aware, I am sure, that the Turtle Project at Bahia de Los Angeles is no longer and according to what we were told, when it ended all the turtles were eaten. :no::no:

Skipjack Joe - 7-14-2010 at 07:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
Joe,

Where exactly were YOU called a liar and/or a coward?

Again, please support your statement, give me the link where this occurred.. I know that I have not called you a liar or a coward.. to the best of my knowledge, I don't even know you..



Right here. But you're right: Jesse's the liar, I'm the coward.
Quote:
Originally posted by ELINVESTIG8R
Spot on Wesson group... For you cowards in here that insist Rafael Muñoz Martinez is a thief and a liar, and post those opinions of him in here please feel free to contact him in u2u to arrange a meeting where you can go see him face to face and call him a thief and a liar you Keyboard Billy BadAss Wannabes. Go ahead...


Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
For you to dismiss the need to document as irrelevant.. is of course your own business.. it however does not hold up under scrutiny ... hence the reason for the need to document what events have occurred.... it's called due process...


I didn't say the need to document is irrelevant. I said the documentation provided is irrelevant. In fact, I asked Mr Munoz to provide documentation that DavidK asked supporting his accusations that M&O are guilty of narc trafficking and turtle beheadings (that's relevant documentation).
Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
It would appear that you do not feel that due process is necessary .....


No. That's why I'm ignoring Mr Munoz's public accusations until the courts decide and he provides documents to support it.
Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
I for one, would not like to live in any place like what you are describing.. As if one does not agree with your position.. then they are automatically wrong, and cannot PROVE themselves innocent, cuz documentation (evidence) doesn't mean anything.. and reading the whole case is to time consuming..


No. I said you are entitled to your opinion but I don't share it at this time.
Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
I have asked for the same ground rules for both parties.. if someone says.. that X happened... then support it with a witness, a written statement obtained through credible sources.. along with any and all documents which will prove their case

As for the innocent not having to provide any evidence to support their side of the story.... I find that really quite hard to understand.


That's correct. M&O are innocent until their accuser proves their guilt. That's the way it's in this country. So far Mr Munoz has not shown any legal documents that the courts have found them guilty.
Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
I do not reject evidence, I do reject "posts" on an internet bulletin board where people do not even identify themselves with there true name, email addresses, phone numbers, pictures et al...


As stated ad nauseum, there is no confirmed evidence yet. Just rants.
Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
I'm not afraid to put up my ugly mug, and my wife's... my dogs.. Where I live .. Hell I have a live camera.. you can watch the wife hang out the clothes.. I wear Fruit of the Loom ..


We finally agree on something. I wear the same.
Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
I'm not really afraid of anything, getting old has that effect .... If someone comes by and shoots of stabs me.. or takes my personal possessions.. well, then it will happen... but, I don't live my life in fear, and I certainly don't live my life accusing someone of something without "EVIDENCE"...

Apparently it is no big in many folks book.... it is in mine...


No. Wiley. Read the post. The quotes are there because Mr Munoz has provided documents documents which have nothing to do with the current accusations. They deal with past history.
Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
Everyone deserves the same type of Law to protect themselves and others from accusations which are unsupported by fact .. I'm old school, but I'm not into vigilantes yet...

Seems that is what we are talking about.. Law and its implementation in BCS


Absolutely. That's why they're not in jail. Because they haven't been proven guilty.
Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
Sorry you feel, that my request for documentation to support one's statements is such a big deal... and I do not reject out of hand "posts" I have only requested that when someone makes a statement about "what" happened, or "that" someone did something... is supported with something .... not just talk..


On the contrary. Please ask Mr Munoz to provide documents supporting court decisions regarding his accusations: narc trafficking and turtle slaughter.
Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
I'm not sure you would feel the same way if the positions were reversed...


I would feel the same way. If I was accused of a crime I wouldn't want nomads to find me guilty until the courts did. I would be very angry if someone was given a free hand to slander me on the internet without having the decency of proving it. As Mr Munoz has been doing and been given the freedom to do so.
Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
This is not intended as a means to start a fight, rather to bring one to a conclusion... through simple process called P.O.S.T

Wiley S


No fight intended. Just a misunderstanding.

Your desire for a conclusion is reciprocated. That's why I said "Let's get off this merry-go-round".

Sincerely,
Igor

wessongroup - 7-14-2010 at 09:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Wesson, I know... but I was trying to use as few words as possible to get Nomads to do what you wanted (read the beginning)... I did that because if a post is toooo loooong, people get glaze-eyed, and may not bother to read it, knowing they may fall asleep before getting to the end... so for me, short, but sweet works.

Sr. Muñoz, to you this is not about turtle killings... you are here to try and do as much damage to Olivia and Mark as you can. Hoping to reduce their business income and force them to leave so you can grab some more land.

Instead of wasting time on Nomad, start a turtle rescue project at your Bahia Concepcion hotel or other land. See the progect at Bahia de los Angeles for an idea on what to do... It would be GREAT PR for you and a slap in the face to turtle eaters!

Some photos at the turtle project in Bahia de los Angeles... (oh, we love turtles and hope their population rebounds):







As for you, I don't want to be enemies... but you have said so much against Olivia and Mark, that an apology is in order in public, and then you would have my support in your future turtle research project at Bahia Concepcion!

The ball is in your court!
Viva Baja!


Thanks DK, know you don't and I know I'm a wind bag.. told by everyone... always putting my foot in my mouth.. have done it so many times.. just seems natural any more..

As we have talked before... we have much they same thinking on a lot of stuff, on others we differ.. a car is a car.. I don't have a love affair with cars :) ... and not far off on this either.. would just like to be very sure of "things".... when they get into the level that someone may lose their freedom and have to go to jail..... that's a big one in my book ... and want to "silk screen it"

To my knowledge I have not said anything against Olivia and Mark.. I have only asked for their side in document fashion.. I don't even know the folks.. and what Im asking for can not hurt their case only strenghten it !!

Just to show, all are under the same magnifying glass, I'm doing some looking myself.. making up a list of everything I can find about this site and/or individuals associated with it ... I wish to insure that a through look is conducted at ALL aspects and would prefer to use as many other outside sources as possible .. than just this board and documents submitted hear thus far..

I have not taken any side on this issue, I will respond to anyone who submits evidence to proof their case .... usually thanking them.. as it not a "friendship thing"... it collecting evidence...

I'm trying to find out in a systamatic fashion what has been said, what viloations of Mexican law have been broken, what charges have been filed, what decesions, if any have been made, and if those decesions have been made there out come and then that would mean the case is closed and any and all documents in a file can be copied under the Freedom of Information Act which is in effect here is Mexico..

Which in its self would put to bed at least what was used to reach the decesion... and open other avenues of redress possibily

I attach two Google translations of one Document which I found issued by PROFEPA on beach closure by fence 2/10/2009... I will not speculate on their meaning at this time .. just that I found documentation which I will date and log into a data base..

Attachment 1



Attachment 2

wessongroup - 7-14-2010 at 09:48 PM

Igor.. trying to stop the go around.. and the only way is to continue to search for All the facts.. which I will continue to do.. see above post to DK

Have no "friend" in this .. now what would one call this .. a case, don't know for sure if there is on being tried... investigation(s).. that one I don't think a gringo can do down here in Mexico unless we are doing a joint investigation between like DOT ... see I'll not go to the other.. try and stay in the middle and use the Department of Transportation..

However, with various agency's involved, I believe that many facts can be obtained through routine requests.

Which I don't mind doing.. been a while since I've done anything... so it's giving something to do other than post..

Plus I'm learning about Mexican law, Politics, Zoning, Taxes.. lots of neat stuff..

Now if I can keep from pi*sing everyone off... which has always been my downfall ..... I am a dreadful person to work with or for... just terrible ... won't listen to anyone.. really bad.. so... I usually work best by myself... which will keep me from underfoot and allow all to have a good time..

Will try and keep it down to a dull roar.. but, would like to find answers to a lot of questions which have been brought up here... with a lot of strong feelings.. which I can appreciate.. I'm my be dumb, but I'm not stupid.. :):)

Let the chips fall where they may... including my terrible grammar and spelling.. you might note that I don't use Word.. just type..

Maybe a Skeet's Jr... and the best of luck to him on his surgery

[Edited on 7-15-2010 by wessongroup]:lol::lol:

[Edited on 7-15-2010 by wessongroup]

David K - 7-15-2010 at 07:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT


You are aware, I am sure, that the Turtle Project at Bahia de Los Angeles is no longer and according to what we were told, when it ended all the turtles were eaten. :no::no:


No, when was it reported and being such a fantastic story, why no multi-page outrage here on Nomad?

Even if true, why not encourage Muñoz to start one?

Bajatripper - 7-15-2010 at 11:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT


You are aware, I am sure, that the Turtle Project at Bahia de Los Angeles is no longer and according to what we were told, when it ended all the turtles were eaten. :no::no:


No, when was it reported and being such a fantastic story, why no multi-page outrage here on Nomad?

Even if true, why not encourage Muñoz to start one?


I'm all for that, DavidK. So, when might we expect the first harvest?

ramuma53 - 7-15-2010 at 01:31 PM

Shipjackjoe
What you say makes sense but the problem is that very few people makes it.
You can see Jesse the cooky liar and Kat 54 who lie and lie and lie attacking the person and not the arguments; they are just trying to rise a doubt about a person and not about the issues dicussed here and that is what causes the problems about being called a liar because I only call a person a liar until I demostrate them as liars.
So if you want reason here, direct your criticism to the person who attack without any reason behind their words and I don not see you doing that.
You see here only part f the information exchanged because a lot of people write through U2U and email direct; I see a lot of persons here who write me to express support and to tell that those not reasonable people should not keep me from continuing pressing the sea turtle issue and that is what I am doing; also a lot of people who want to know bout land legality issues and I think I will open another one on that matter.
So do not think that people just read this and keep it to themselves, that is why this is one of the most read and participated discussions, do not miss that point.

ramuma53 - 7-15-2010 at 02:31 PM

Jesse the cooky liar
Now I see that you refer to the late Mr. Juan Ernesto Corona Flores as my boss and for the people, who do not know who he was, because he died a year ago, let me explain to whom Jesse the cooky liar refers to without any respect.
Late Juan Ernesto Corona Flores was the owner of the Corona Plaza hotel chain, also Castillos del Mar owner in Rosarito Beach and Football Tijuana stadium former owner.

Well, to cal him my boss, I would have to work or have worked for him, not give him a service, get a wage from him on a periodical way, or, to be called his partner, I would have to own part of his business or him part of mine; any of those facts would have to be true so “Jesse the cooky lair” were not a liar again.

I am about to demonstrate you a liar again Jesse the cooky liar2 .

Well, in no public registry, there is a single inscription, where I own part of any of Corona's business or properties, nor he own any part of any of may businesses or land, not a single one; my only relationship with him was, that I directed the strategy, to win the case of Castillos del Mar against Ejido Mazatlan, directed only, because the one who executed the legal procedure was the Guillermo Ruiz Hernandez law firm, not me but my team directly executed the technical part because it was the critical issue.

I also did not work for him, because I have never worked for anyone and I mean anyone, because I have worked in my own businesses since I was 16 years old, I have never worked nor for him nor for anybody else.

Just to confirm that, Ernesto's property is less than mine, so it would be illogical that the employee has more property value than the boss, but I would like to see you providing a single proof that I work or worked for him or to make it easy on you, for anybody anytime.
Also and not less important, even if you obviously did not like Juan Ernesto Corona Flores, it is a very different story to call him a crook or something worst, that you try to imply, because Ernesto had all his business on the surface and as a legal businessman; from the start when he was young, he was and always were a workaholic, when he made his fortune through liquor stores on Revolution avenue in Tijuana, to when he owned a liquor store chain all over Baja; then when the law changed and turned liquor stores in to a less profitable business, he sold his chain and went in to the hospitality business with Hotel Corona Plaza in Tijuana then Rosarito and bought Castillos del Mar already made, so his business career is public and cleaner than yours for sure; also his brother Gustavo Corona Flores was President of the Business Commerce Chamber in Tijuana and almost National, he has a clean business and is public figure in Tijuana; he was almost the Tijuana major candidate.
I know, Ernesto was not a lovable guy, he was a bad-tempered guy and was not easy to be his friend, but from that, to imply that he had shady connections or businesses, is a long way, because when I was helping him with Castillos del Mar, anything would have had surfaced and didn’t, in fact, his hotel was used by the Federal Police to keep their people living; also, he crossed the USA border every day to his sons house in Chula Vista, so the American authorities would have stopped him, if he were in any but any not clear business and to close on him, he was a poor rich guy, a workaholic to the final day, he was always struggling to pay for his employees wages; I saw him a lot of times ask for hard lent money to pay for the week wages; do that sound like a guy who is in a shady business???? Only to you, who speak just to put dirty on people you do not personally know.
Also since he is now dead, and he died while playing football as he did every Sunday in Otay mesa public camps; I would like you to say anything about him to Tommy his son, you will find him an interesting karate expert guy, but more lovable than his father.

Jesse, you are a no scrupled guy, but you should put on leash you viperous tongue, some people may take offense harder than me; I am a very civilized guy who does not take offense from people like you seriously, I even make fun of it, but other people are more serious about that, so be careful with your venom, it may turn on you.
:no:

JESSE - 7-15-2010 at 03:00 PM

Well, it doesn't get any clearer than that, apparently "some people" may take offense at the posts of a lonely cook somewhere in baja, so i have deleted most of them because i am not going to get into trouble over something that doesn't concern me.

I am permanently out of this discussion, good luck to all.

ramuma53 - 7-15-2010 at 03:00 PM

David K
You portrait me here as a rich guy on a mission to bother a nice lady who is a hard working person together with his lovely husband and who is trying to steal more and more land starting with Olivia’s land while using the sea turtles I planted on her as a tool to obtain my devious goals.
I have demonstrated, not just talked about like you do, that nor she nor Nark are nice guys, they are already convicted felons just waiting for more convictions and be put in jail for a long time.
I have demonstrated here with logical conclusions that Olivia cooked the sea turtles and that it is impossible that any of my people or me, planted the sea turtle pot on her own hands, well, she made the case against herself very good anyway.
I have demonstrated that I legally own my land through legal titles already checked tanks to Olivia by several Federal authorities so I am not steeling any land.
I have demonstrated that Olivia does not own any but any land nor has she provided here proof of any land owning and it is impossible to steal land from somebody who do not own any land, well, she is not even an ejidataria now to be able to steal from her ejido land.
I am not getting any more land or want more land, I have more than enough with the land I own I Rosarito and Baja.
I do not have to get Olivia’s land, because she does not own any of the land she uses, she is in Federal Zone, public property and I do not need or want that, my property has 5 Km. of beach front, why would I need her 100 mts.
Why I do not want her there, is clear and upfront, I do not want drug landings in front of my property, I do not want sea turtle or animal killers there, I do not want sea turtle stew being sold in front of my property, also and I do not want a drug supply there; also I do not want them there because as I have demonstrated, they have destroyed my property several times and almost killed some of my Hotel guests; do you think I need more just cause??????? Would you yourself need more ??????????
Since everything you say is a lie, do you want me to start calling you also a liar, because it sound very fine to me “David K known Liar”.

mtgoat666 - 7-15-2010 at 03:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ramuma53
“David K known Liar”.


rams-anus53:
don't strat a flame war with DK, you will lose, as he has an endless supply of hot air and is not afraid to use it :lol:

p.s. you are getting very tiresome. this subject is old and worn out.

ramuma53 - 7-15-2010 at 03:20 PM

David K
Concerning the Turtle project, I may not start one, but I would certainly help on one that really is designed to keep those wonderful animals around forever.
I have several PADI scuba diving certifications so I know them in their element; I can help in any way to just keep them there, to look at them in books is not the same thing and to look at them in a stew pot is something very sad and more when you see Narc cut parts from the live animal like he did to the beautiful piggy he killed in front of everyone with a knife; you should have heard the animal cries and his cold killing actions; no animal deserves that; they deserve at least a painless dead.

wessongroup - 7-15-2010 at 03:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by ramuma53
“David K known Liar”.


rams-anus53:
don't strat a flame war with DK, you will lose, as he has an endless supply of hot air and is not afraid to use it :lol:

p.s. you are getting very tiresome. this subject is old and worn out.


Aaahhh... goat... knew we were missing something... and of course... we get that from only you...

Yes, the search for truth, protection of the environment, and civility would be a bit tiresome to you...

Speaking of old and worn out... just might be the bleating of the "goat"

Back to work...

ramuma53 - 7-15-2010 at 03:33 PM

Jesse the Cooky liar
That is the only reasonable thing you have said here and maybe in your whole life.
You can insinuate anything about me here, I will answer and have fun with it, but you going to imply that other people are something, just to try to get some dirt on me, is not very smart in Baja, keep it on me only, your vendetta is on me, don't get in to trouble with other people, I know you are a harmless cooky but some other people may not take that in to account and remember that we are in Mexico.

mtgoat666 - 7-15-2010 at 03:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
Yes, the search for truth, protection of the environment, and civility would be a bit tiresome to you...


turtlebutthead:
if you are searching for that, don't be reading this thread. this thread is just juvenile blather

KAT54 - 7-15-2010 at 04:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ramuma53
David K
I do not have to get Olivia’s land, because she does not own any of the land she uses, she is in Federal Zone, public property and I do not need or want that, my property has 5 Km. of beach front, why would I need her 100 mts.
“David K known Liar”.


You mean you do not want to control the beach un front of the hotel?
If Olivia puts a caravan or two in front of the hotel with the generators blairing that would be OK?
And she can collect their money too?
DavidK is a "known liar"?
What is he lieing about?

ramuma53 - 7-15-2010 at 04:36 PM

Just a comment on the newspaper story.

The newspaper clearly say that my fence, because I put it up, is hundreds of meters from the beach, every inch on the highway, so I was fencing my property on the highway side as I am allowed by law.
Olivia called the authorities on me, lying as always, as if I was fencing the beach, but the authorities checked and no beach was being fenced or closed as she said to them and it is said on the nespaper story too.

What they said, was that La Perla beach entrance was being closed by me and yes, it was closed by me, also the former entrance to La Armenta was closed by me, because it is my property and miles from anybody else's federal concession, including Olivia, who only has a 100 mts. concession on Buenaventura beach; I closed those entrances to enhance security and closing those entrances does not mean I closed access to the beaches or did an illegal act, because if you know the place, you can enter to Requeson beach and through the existing road access parallel to the beaches any of those beaches can be reached; but you have to pass in front of the fisherman living there who work for me; why? because as you know, last year, an American was killed in La Armenta by some drug addicts who found it easy to do it, because they were able come in and out of the beach without anybody looking at them, because of those redundant entrances; anyway they were caught by the police with the victim's car; stupid drug addicts.

I was not even fined or even cited by the authority, because it is not an unlawful act, to fence your property; it is not unlawful to stop cars from crossing your property; the law say, that you must allow entrance to Federal Zone once every 800 meters, if there is no way to go in to that particular place and since you can access every beach front from Requeson road, there is no need to allow more entrances, case closed.

Also, for your information, “allow entrance”, means to persons on foot, not cars; you are not obligated to allow entrance to cars to your property and people accessing on foot the beach, cannot wander on your property, just cross it to the beach following a narrow designed passage.

Also, having a concession like Olivia has for Federal Zone, means she can make a restaurant business there only, not sell alcohol that is not covered by her concession, that is an illegal act she does every day; also she cannot lease federal zone or even live there and she in consequence is violating federal law when she stay overnight there or when she rent a house there or when she sells drugs of course.
A concession only allow you to perform the commercial act allowed by the concession, it does not allow you to forbid anything else; that mean that if you have a concession to rent umbrellas, people can use the beach and rent from someone else chairs; IT IS PUBLIC PROPERTY, she cannot forbid anything there or anyone from using the Federal Zone, a concession is only a permission to perform that particular act of commerce, it is not a property right, is only a permission by the Federal Government.
You think Olivia is a law abiding person? just ask her to put your boat in the water on the ramp beside her restaurant. it is not even on Federal Zone, because it is in the water and that is Marine zone; she forbid anybody to use it and you must pay if you want to use it; that is clearly an illegal act, but keep thinking she is a nice lady.

ramuma53 - 7-15-2010 at 05:00 PM

Kat54
I do not need to control the Federal Zone in front of my hotel, because nobody can put a caravan in front of my hotel, that is my property and I can legally forbid them to park there.
Remember that I can or forbid entrance to vehicles to my property lawfully? what I cannot do is forbid you to reach and use the beach on foot, so you can legally park your bus on the road side and walk to the beach and even camp there while I cannot do anything about that or even charge you, but enter my property with a bus, I can allow it or not. And I can legally charge you while Olivia cannot.

Also, having a Federal Zone concession, does not allow you to charge for using it; beaches are free to use by anybody so since Olivia’s Restaurant is in Federal Zone, you can legally seat on any of her tables and not pay anything, she is allowed to sell you food, but not forbid you to use the Federal Zone.

Concerning caravans, Olivia has a concession or permission to perform the commerce act of restaurant service; not to rent federal zone while I have a city permit to charge for using my property as parking to vehicles, so I can charge you for parking there, she cannot.

Also it is unlawful to park on Federal Zone, because it is public property and every person must be allowed to use it, you can only park on my property and that is why I charge the caravans and if I do not want them in front of my hotel, I legally do not allow them in front of my hotel, I do not need to control Federal Zone, because I am not performing any commerce act on Federal zone, I am performing that act on my property beside the Federal Zone.

If you want to park on the Federal Zone, it is a forbidden act because you cannot legally park or circulate a motor vehicle on Federal Zone.

My friend, remember that I am an attorney, you will not catch me or my employees performing illegal acts, while Olivia does it every day.

noproblemo2 - 7-15-2010 at 05:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ramuma53
My friend, remember that I am an attorney, you will not catch me or my employees performing illegal acts, while Olivia does it every day.


Well, my friend, "IF" you are an attorney you certainly don't seems to have much of a practice since you spend your days posting on message boards.... :lol::lol:

mtgoat666 - 7-15-2010 at 05:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ramuma53
My friend, remember that I am an attorney, you will not catch me or my employees performing illegal acts,


rams anus:
while your actions MAY be legal, they are certainly not moral.
i think there was illegal turtle cooking going on next to you, but i am rooting for for your neighbor. i hope your neighbor prevails in the war or you get struck by lightning.

ramuma53 - 7-15-2010 at 05:32 PM

noproblemo2
How did you reach that brillinat conclusion? a lot of thinking for sure.:?:
My friend I do not have a practice because I do not work as an attorney, I do not get my living from performing as an attorney, I do with my day anyting I like, like writing here in Bajanomads; also I have always said that I studied to be an attorney at law just to protect myself from my own attorneys.:rolleyes:
We may say that you are not working also because you had the time to write those lines but I know it is not true.
I am also a journalist and you know, journalist get their living by writing, maybe that is what I am doing here.:lol:

ramuma53 - 7-15-2010 at 05:37 PM

mtgoat666
Why are they not moral please say exactly what the inmoral act is????:(
Sorry my friend, but the one who send the lightning is god and he doesen't like us to cook sea turtle or people named goats 666 who tell him to who he must send his lightning; he usually send it to that kind of people.
Also why did you choose to be named goat and 666? did you have any connection on the dark side?????:lol:

KAT54 - 7-15-2010 at 05:37 PM

Amala has nothing to do with Munoz.
This is a private property that the company has owned since 1971 and is fully fenced.
The complete area from Armenta to Requeson is owned by the same company.
We have title insurance from First American Title Insurance Company and Stewart Title Insurance company.
Nobody involved in the project has anything to do with Munoz.
If anyone ones to know more about the development you can email directly at info@amalabaja.com
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=42612&pag...
Did you steal this property?
Is this why it is not offered anymore?
Where is your land if AMALA ownes all the other land?
Do not they have a concession?

Bajatripper - 7-15-2010 at 06:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ramuma53
Jesse the Cooky liar
That is the only reasonable thing you have said here and maybe in your whole life.
You can insinuate anything about me here, I will answer and have fun with it, but you going to imply that other people are something, just to try to get some dirt on me, is not very smart in Baja, keep it on me only, your vendetta is on me, don't get in to trouble with other people, I know you are a harmless cooky but some other people may not take that in to account and remember that we are in Mexico.


Hello, Mr. Muñoz
Jesse did a hard thing and backed down and has officially checked out of the conversation. With all due respect, why don't you show a little class and let it be? Or is your real agenda to keep the crap flowing?

David K - 7-15-2010 at 08:27 PM

DOUG... Time to put this thread to bed, yes?:wow::light:

BajaNuts - 7-15-2010 at 10:21 PM

final question to ramuma53-
what does all this ranting and raving on an internet forum get you?


Has it helped your business? Has it helped your cause of protecting the turtles?

mtgoat666 - 7-16-2010 at 08:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
DOUG... Time to put this thread to bed, yes?:wow::light:


let it die naturally.
euthanasia is bad.

Lobsterman - 7-16-2010 at 09:05 AM

I would like to thank Ramu for multiple reasons

1. His crusade to rid baja of drugs. Drugs and the lowlifes that come with it is why myself and +thosands of people like me no longer bring our hard earned dollars south into Mexico. I do not want to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. being a greyhair puts extra emphasis on me. I took Skeet's advice 4 years ago. I monitor this board everyday looking for signs that things are changing for the better. I know this causes a great hardship on the wonderful, kindly and hard working people of baja but safety first. People like Ramu and his efforts to rid Mulege of drug scum will bring us back in hords inspite of what Skeet's says. I retire in 197 days and hope to be going to Mulege to rent a place, fish daily with my Cabo216 and spend lots of cash on the local economy.

2. Thanks for explaining in layman's english who owns what, access to the beaches, who can charge rent, etc. Also what are differences between marine, federal, personal ownership of land. I guess for forty years I was paying to sleep on the beach where it should have been free but $5-10/day was not worth worrying about either then or now. Safety is paramount. I liked his reasoning on fencing his property so there is a choke point for making cars go by his employees' watchful eyes to get to the beach where a gringo was murdered a few years ago. Every bit helps.

3. The National land problem is finally understandable. It's unfortunate some people lost their's in this process like in Punta Banda but right is right and business is business. Correcting the misdeeds of others in the past will finally unmuddle the waters on land ownership to spur gringo and businesses to buy land in mexico again.

4. For his unemotional approach to explaining his side with facts and legal documentations. His command of the english language is quite commendable. Not a single other person on this board (perhaps I missed one or two) has provided one shread of evidence to refute what Ramu has presented in this thread. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

5. Jessie should be giving Ramu thanks for the heads up that he is in deep dodo for dissing a deadman who can not defend himself. Jessie better keep a low profile cuz as Ramu stated "this is Mexico".

I hope this thread continues because I would like to see justice done if in fact drugs and other misdeeds were done as Ramu has so elegantly explained. If Mulege and other cities can clean up their towns and one can again feel safe traveling south, thousands of people like me are waiting in the wings for it to happen, we will return with a vengence for time lost and will bring our bucks with us to distribute to the locals for restaurant meals, lodging, tinkets, pangas, etc.

I miss Mulege greatly but...... still waiting

DianaT - 7-16-2010 at 09:33 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT


You are aware, I am sure, that the Turtle Project at Bahia de Los Angeles is no longer and according to what we were told, when it ended all the turtles were eaten. :no::no:


No, when was it reported and being such a fantastic story, why no multi-page outrage here on Nomad?

Even if true, why not encourage Muñoz to start one?


David,
Once again, you are accusing me of making up stories----you just won't quit, will you. I thought maybe you had changed a little, but evidently not---you just want to mouth off when you have no idea about what is happening.

When is the last time you were in Bahia de Los Angeles? And believe it or not, nomads is not where all that happens in Baja is reported all the time. There are multitudes of foreigners who travel and or live full or part time in Baja who either don't know about nomads, or know about it and don't care, or really dislike nomads.

So before you start with your accusations, AGAIN---check it out.

We found out that the turtle reserve was gone from BOLA when we went to there earlier this year---it was no longer there. We talked to people who live near where it was, and they told us about its closure.

Now, I certainly did not see the people eating turtle, but the people who live near where it was told us that they were captured and eaten after the shut down. Also, some friends who live there now said that is the word around there---that they were eaten. Please note that in my original post I made sure I said that is what we were told because we did not see people eating the turtles. But the project is closed unless someone has re-opened it in the last few months.

Why don't you drive down and check it out before you mouth off!

It is like your lame defense and pretense that you know anything about this dispute----yes, we know a number of people who know Mark and Olivia, like them, and therefore take their side of the story. Some people say they know Munoz and think he is not OK.

But, just because someone is liked or disliked does not necessarily make them a crook or a liar or not a crook. It is a dispute that will eventually be settled.

I would never venture a guess as to who is innocent and who is not---I DON'T KNOW and YOU DON'T KNOW. Just because someone is hard working and liked by some nomads, does not make them necessarily innocent, nor does it make them honest and ethical.

But you are the self-proclaimed expert on ALL things Baja. You do have a lot of knowledge, but try, for ONCE sticking to the things about which you do have knowledge and quit mouthing off when you are clueless.

I once again very much resent your accusations----but I just have to consider the source --- it is what you do.







[Edited on 7-16-2010 by DianaT]

ELINVESTIG8R - 7-16-2010 at 09:41 AM

Lobsterman I could not agree with you more. Thank you for being so eloquent in your post. WOW…Spot-On!

Those of you who do not agree with Rafael Munoz Martinez as far as the documents he provided as the truth in his defense, I still love you like a brother and a sister.

mtgoat666 - 7-16-2010 at 10:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by DianaT
You are aware, I am sure, that the Turtle Project at Bahia de Los Angeles is no longer and according to what we were told, when it ended all the turtles were eaten. :no::no:


No, when was it reported and being such a fantastic story, why no multi-page outrage here on Nomad?


perhaps no multi-page thread because the alleged turtle eaters did not advertise their feast. or perhaps everyone knows but does not care. or perhaps such a feast never happened.

dk: you may be shocked to discover that things happen in baja without nomads knowing and opining

[Edited on 7-16-2010 by mtgoat666]

ramuma53 - 7-16-2010 at 11:47 AM

BajaNuts
Have you heard that the one who does not object when somebody call him a thief accept the fact?????:light:

A lot of people had the wrong idea about a lot of things and now a lot are thanking me here or direct for explaining the wrong facts.

A lot of people thought that I was stealing land; now a lot of people know I am not.

Do you know that Tijuana, Rosarito and Ensenada, places that were some of the most visited in the world are now dead towns? do you know the causes? Would you worry about that fact if you lived in one of those towns? if your business were there?

I do and I am doing something, not only here but in a lot of places.

I oppose the drug dealers and you know that is not very healthy occupation, but to just go with the wind is not very healthy either and if you are going to die, die standing, not hiding.

This is a reality for us and Mulege is almost dying because there is absolutely no tourism but why there is no tourism??????????
Because our politicians got in bed with the drug traffickers, got their money, the politicians got greedy and started to sell protection not only to one of the drug traffickers group but to several; when several groups got the absolute impunity, they also got greedy and started to fight among them to control the area and started to kill people all over the place, even in Caliente, movie theaters, dance clubs and even on Revolucion street; at this time, Tijuana has at least 10 executed people every day; not even your war in Irak Afganistan kill so many people per day; would you go to vacation with your wife in Irak or Afganistan??????

Aggravating that, you Americans want not only to visit, but to live in paradise (Baja) and the Land ownership is a problem, you started to lose the dream house you wanted for your golden years because of land disputes and like in Punta Banda it went the other way; you usually trust people in power so they trusted the Baja Governor’s cousin and the Ejido but they lost their houses.

A that time, the American consulate consulted me and I told them what would happen and exactly what happened; they told me that they had the Governor’s word that nothing would happen and you know what happened.

In 1992, the Agrarian Department knowing about those problems started a regularization program in Baja, South Baja and Puebla; in Puebla they issued 10,000 property titles in Both Bajas Zero; why? Because the then Governor Ruffo opposed the SRA and asked the president to stop the program and guess what, be careful with what you wish, because it may be granted and the President did; remember he was the first PAN Governor? They just let him hang himself but got Baja in to the problem it is now.
Also Ruffo started to make deal
with several drug traffickers groups and sold them the police groups, city and state; then the policemen started to die because they got to be players on that business and the war started.
Also the strip between Tijuana and Ensenada became a political price and every group who could provide money to the new party in power did and they allowed them to grab the best land; that is the case for La Joya del Mar and several others the Torres Group started to build but the predicted problems started to come true.
Now our streets are worst than battle fields and we have no tourist, but looks like the PAN party just lost all Baja towns but they still have the Governor chair.
So we accept that we have both problems, drug traffickers gone crazy and land ownership problems and both affect the tourist; North Baja is known all over the world as a dangerous place, for business and personal.
We all know the problems, but how do we correct them?
First the drug traffickers: Drug traffic is not new to Mexico, it is very old, dating back to the Viet Nam war; but Mexico was a traffic point, no drugs were sold here; Also the drug traffickers were very disciplined and if the government said NO movement, they stopped the traffic at once, no explanation needed or granted; then things changed mostly in North America because they started to press for the end of drug providing; They started to jail the disciplined drug traffickers but the law of Supply and demand overran them and they lost control of the new drug traffickers; they started to sell their drugs in Mexico and it became a Mexican drug addiction problem that dropped productivity in a lot of places like Mulege; also and very understandably, the security became bad as it is today.
The government need urgently to get on top of the drug problem and world examples exist, just remember the Opium wars, there is no middle point or easy way, the government need to stop the traffickers the only way they respect; kill of jail them all; of course that will not stop the traffic because that is why it is a law, the law of supply and demand will act and the traffic start again so you in America have to stop using them or legalize the use to bring that business in to control (I know difficult) but there is no alternative; otherwise we will live in a war zone.
The land ownership problem:
Just restart the land regularization program and issue real titles to all the real owners; stop the selling of court rulings and start departing justice and that is it; order will follow.
Easy said, but hardly done, but, there is no option or we must resign ourselves to cultivate the land again and forget about the tourist trade also you will have no option but Florida or the California crazy prices for ocean view living units.
Action is needed to make those corrections, the actual Mexico President recognized the problem and has started acting but he cannot do it alone and believe me, he is almost alone.

You do not think writing in this forum changes anything, sorry to disagree, but just check the very long list of participations; at the start, every person thought I was a crook trying to steal land while Olivia was a nice lady fighting a rich guy who planted sea turtles on her restaurant to achieve his devious goals; now everyone agree I have proved my legal property, that she cooked sea turtle and is not such a nice lady, also that she has no land right; don’t you think it worth it?????
I know among those people there are Rosarito Beach people interested in maintaining the land ownership problem, those are the ones who do not listen to reason and keep attacking, but the problem is now public and believe me, they do not want publicity but to solve the problem it is needed that the buyer know about the problem he is getting in to; otherwise would be to cooperate with the fraud against tourism.:smug:

KAT54 - 7-16-2010 at 12:27 PM

So this is ture?
You are stealing this property?
Quote:
Originally posted by KAT54
Amala has nothing to do with Munoz.
This is a private property that the company has owned since 1971 and is fully fenced.
The complete area from Armenta to Requeson is owned by the same company.
We have title insurance from First American Title Insurance Company and Stewart Title Insurance company.
Nobody involved in the project has anything to do with Munoz.
If anyone ones to know more about the development you can email directly at info@amalabaja.com
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=42612&pag...
Did you steal this property?
Is this why it is not offered anymore?
Where is your land if AMALA ownes all the other land?
Do not they have a concession?


The Pani Family does not have title?
You are the true owner?
Does Stewart Title know this?

KAT54 - 7-16-2010 at 12:37 PM

Is Munox stealing property for sale again?
Quote:
Originally posted by ramuma53
MPC
Sorry but DonJulio is right, you need an F4 permit to be able to legally sell a single lot, it is called Fraccionamiento and it is signed by the Governor; if you sell without one of those it is a Fraud "Fraude Equiparado" and a criminal offense.
Also I woud not trust the title insurance issued by American companies, they usually do not know what they insure and you have to go in to the fine print to see that they put a lot of ifs; just check the Maravia project in La Paz, they have an American Title insurance and do not have a private property title, they have a Colonial title that is worth nothing, they do not exist since 1992.
Also you say you own land in Bahia Concepcion since 1971 and in Bahia Concepcion there is only one Private property title for Buenavetura, all other land is Ejido La Purisima land up to Estero Santa Barbara and Mulege Ejido up from there.
Also your webpage has nothing that show you as owners.
You said that you own the land since 1971, but there was a National Land claim in 1962 by a company named Yates y Turismo that dropped the claim in 1971, and was claimed the next year by the Buenaventura owner in 1972, so how come you own something you do not have, because Buenaventura hotel is there and if you put a foot in Requeson or anyplace near, you will get a criminal charge without the premission of Buenaventura owner and that is good for you or any of your buyers.
You look like another smart guy who try to get a buck from inocent Americans, we do not need more of those, we have enough with Olivia.

Is is trying to stop the sale of lots in his area?
The Pani have owned this for years?

ramuma53 - 7-16-2010 at 01:08 PM

Kat54
Hold your horses, they fist have to say where their property is, it may be near but not overlapped.
Also I heard of the Pani family long time ago, they do not have anything that prove their property and they are not alone, a lady named Yolanda ****** also were saying she owned the place, but when we look at her alleged title, it was a buy from Mr. Gorosave and Mr. Gorosave only had a claim over the land to National Land office, a claim denied because it was no longer National land, it was my property and he based his claim on property right coming from a Benito Juarez title located 20 miles inland without any border with the ocean.
Let them show anything from the public registry and you will see.
Also as You know, I just came out smelling like roses after a 7 year court battle with the Ejido and Olivia, where every kind of authority verified my title and declared it legal; how come now those guys now say they want to sell a piece of it.
Just check their webpage, nothing; this is part of the problem I was talking about.
Also, do you still think this forum is worthless; just look how everything comes out and allow people to get informed, about any but any kind of problem; this is the real value, it is becoming impossible for crooks to perform their art without being put to the light.

ramuma53 - 7-16-2010 at 01:12 PM

Just so you corroborate
He say that his property is fenced but remember who fenced the land?
Even Olivia called the police on me for doing that on my property so it is clear that I fenced my land; then who is lying?
But lets hold the horses, let them explain where their land is located in nature this may be a missunderstanding.

KAT54 - 7-16-2010 at 01:43 PM

The map shows it is just south of benaventura.
ABOUT US
Amalá is the manifestation of a 45-year old dream of famous Mexican architect
Mario Pani Darqui (I). Pani bought the land 45 years ago when the Baja
peninsula was virtually untouched by man. He bought the land in hopes that it
would never be disrespected and over-developed. Today, Pani’s son and
grandson in combination with a seasoned group of experts are building Amalá
with that dream in mind, with environment-friendly concepts, and with the utmost
respect for the surroundings.
CONTACT US
Developer
Mario Pani Cusi
Email: Mario@amalabaja.com
Mexico Phone: 55.6421.3935
US Phone: 978.317.2037
VP Marketing
Laurie Pani
Email: Laurie@amalabaja.com
US Phone: 978.376.9717
Q: How do I go about viewing the property?
A: Nellie Hutchison of Dorado Loreto is the exclusive realtor for the project. You
can contact her directly at nellie@doradoloreto.com, via Mexico phone: 52
613.135.0310, or via US phone: 602.628.2920.
If you already have a local realtor in mind, please contact Nellie Dorado to
schedule a visit. The Developer, Mario Pani Cusi, also welcomes inquiries at
mario@amalabaja.com via Mexico phone: 55.8421.3935 or via US phone978.317.2037.

ramuma53 - 7-16-2010 at 03:37 PM

Just South of Buenaventura is Requeson and Requeson is fenced by me up to La Armenta where the SRA has a line that is my border with the Ejido La Purisima on Km 89 and the same to the North where there is an official marker on Km 94.5 put there also by the SRA that mark my boundary with the Ejido La Purisima, so all my boundaries are official markers put there by the Authority and I have a fence all over the place and everybody know it since your read about it and some of you posted it here also so there is no doubt about who own that land and you can see it on the Agrarian Magistrate answer to the Federal Judge that he recognizes my title and boundaries, so there si no question that inside my boundaries I am the only owner and it is registered in the public registry and other official regstries.
As you say, a lot of people has dreams, but property is not proved with dreams or empty webpages, it is proved with official registries and property titles and you can see mine published at my webpage www.munoz-industries.com/proof.htm let see somebody else put up something.

ramuma53 - 7-16-2010 at 04:18 PM

I just published my official plans and photo of those plans on Google and you can all see them in www.munoz-industries.com/proof.htm
Every document is an official one, drawn by the Agrarian Office and recognized by the Federal Judge and Agrarian Magistrate.

If something I have to thank to Olivia is to corroborate all my documents and plans in court, so everything is a legal true, not object able by anyone or even any judge anymore.

Documents are not wet dreams, are a reality plus I have a hotel there to prove it.

I just asked to the Agrarian Office and they say the information provided is wrong, Pani was the representative for Yates y Turismo, a corporation that claimed that land in 1962 and never got it, dropped the claim or better said, abandoned the claim and it in 1967 was declared process abandonment and listed as available land again so when I claimed it in 1972 it was available National Land, case closed.

So what they have as an abandoned in 1967 claim to the National Land office not a property title.

That is why I doubt they have a title insurance that cover any foreigner; it may be something that have a lot of ifs and exclusions, subjected to getting the title, title that they never got or paid.

Please be aware that what those people are offering for sale, is a fraud and do not go for it, any way it looks like people here are lot more legally smart now, than in the past and that is the way it should be to avoid any more Punta Bandas.


[Edited on 7-16-2010 by ramuma53]

KAT54 - 7-16-2010 at 04:59 PM

This is your property?
We should not buy it?
Someone is trying to steal your property?
Panis stole your property?
What about the people that already invested?
Is their money gone?



ramuma53 - 7-16-2010 at 07:43 PM

Kat54
Yes it is clearly inside my property and covered by the title you can see.
You should not buy it, because I am not selling and also because it is illegal to sell without the F4 development authorization, it is called fraud and of course when you try to enter, your just bought parcel, I would put you in jail for entering my property.
No they cannot steal my property, I have all kind of legal proof for my property, what they are trying is to steal from unsuspecting Americans and then leave them to deal with me, the legitimate owner; in other words anyone who buy from them, would lose their money; that is the kind of scam that I was warning about; but as long as you ask the right questions, it does not work and some of you did; where is F4 permit to sell?. Where is you legal title? Where is you public registry sub division and authorization to sell?.
Now you understand me why this forum is really an useful place; how many of you may have bought if the information were not public?.
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