BajaNomad - Mas en Loreto y Loreto Bay

Mas en Loreto y Loreto Bay

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vandenberg - 2-15-2006 at 02:16 PM

T&T,

Got any approximate figures of what a desalination plant for, from 6 to 10000 people will cost and the time frame of building one ??

turtleandtoad - 2-15-2006 at 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
T&T,

Got any approximate figures of what a desalination plant for, from 6 to 10000 people will cost and the time frame of building one ??

I'm probably not the one to put a dollar (or peso) figure on it because I'm not familiar with all the costs of property, materials, labor rates, etc. involved with doing business in Mexico.

However I can probably give you physical size, and US construction time and manhours (design/build) of such a plant. It'll take a while for me to pull together the info but it doesn't look like this thread is going away for awhile.

Just keep in mind, it'll be what we call a "SWAG" (scientific wild-a*s guess). :biggrin:

capn.sharky - 2-15-2006 at 05:30 PM

Pam---You Rock!!!! I agree with everything you said except about the famous flojos.....I have seen some really hard working Mexicans in Loreto. Yes, there are some lazy ones....but on the whole, I think they all do pretty well. Also, some of your Captains are the best Loreto has to offer. Gabriel, Fidel, Nacho...and some others. Why, because you treat them better than the other fishing companies. You want them to do good and be able to feed their families.

Marie-Rose - 2-15-2006 at 09:27 PM

I noticed earlier that "Friend of Baja" was logged on and I was interested to see what
his/her response would be to Pam's post .... :?:

Bruce R Leech - 2-15-2006 at 09:59 PM

keep waiting :lol:

vandenberg - 2-15-2006 at 10:07 PM

Would be nice to know ,to whom at Loreto Bay we're actually answering posts. Come on, identify yourself and quit hiding behind a synonym. We don't. " Friend of Baja" doesn't quite cut it. I've an idea ,but not sure. :light:

Phil S - 2-16-2006 at 08:04 AM

Pam. "times we are out of electricity" count. Isn't totally fair to compare, as over the past fifteen years I've been coming to Loreto, I've lost count of the number of times the electricity as been off over those years. And L.B. wasn't around until about two years ago.

Wilderone: You mentioned earlier that you knew of some "screw up's" (not correct wording, sorry) by Butterfield & Grogan in the past. I'm curious if you meant, "they screwed up" or something happened to some projects they were involved in. Two years ago, when L.B. was still in the "drawing board" stage for Nopolo, we stopped by Scottsdale, Arizona on the way down, and spent several days 'nosing around' Met with Jim Grogan. Asked around the business community about him. Not a word came up of any "screw ups" in his background. Didn't get to meet Butterfield during that visit. But did get to meet him, and over several opportunities, have been able to get to know him a little. I don't see a "grab & bail" bone in his body. (and I've spent most of my working life dealing with "people", and can get a pretty good "read" after all these years. (and my background comes from banking, finance, credit lending, insurance & real estate. After a while, you can "sniff out" those folks. Of course I did this with a need for information, as I own a home in Nopolo that I hope L.B. will be protecting my (others) rights to water, sewer, etc. So far, I'm not as worried about it as there seems to be so many others on this board, who some don't own property in this area. Wilderone. Did your information come from a private phone investigation, or personal visits to people who knew something about them. I'd love to know this, in efforts to help me turn up this same information myself. Thanks for providing a more clear picture of their problems of their past. Appreciate it. Phil S

A TYPICAL CONCEPT SUMMARY

turtleandtoad - 2-16-2006 at 11:18 AM

OK, for those who asked (and those that didn't); here's what I've come up with as what a concept study might look like for LB. I've based this on a couple of projects currently working their way through the public process in California. I know that the Environmental part probably isn't the same in Mexico, but from what I've heard, the Bureaucracy can be just as slow.

Loreto Bay Energy Park Executive Summary.

Loreto Bay?s Utilities Department, doing business as LBUD, proposes to construct, own, and operate an electrical generating plant in the Village of Loreto Bay, Baja California Sur, Mexico. The Loreto Bay Energy Park (LBEP) will be a dual fuel (natural gas/diesel)-fired, combined-cycle electrical generating facility rated at a nominal net generating capacity of 120 to 125 megawatts (MW), with the ability to peak-fire to 160 MW nominal during summer design conditions.

The project is proposed for a 20-acre site that lies within a 140-acre Loreto Bay parcel designated as the LBIP (Loreto Bay Industrial Park). The project site is within the limits of the village of Loreto Bay, adjacent to and north of the Loreto Bay Waste Water Treatment Plant (LBWWTP). The project site is owned by the Village of Loreto Bay and is zoned Public/Quasi-Public. Surrounding land uses currently include recreational, and rural residential.

The below figures are for the power plant only and do not include any ancillary or adjacent projects or property acquisition.

Design Time; 36-40 months

Permit/Environmental Study time; 24-36 months

Construction time; 24-30 months

Estimated Capital costs, 120 Million.

Estimated Construction Costs; TBD

PROJECT FEATURES
The main project features are:
? The project is a 120 to 125 MW nominal, dual fuel (diesel/natural gas) fired, combined-cycle generating plant with two General Electric LM6000 or two Alstom GTX 100 combustion turbine-generators (CTGs), a single condensing steam turbine generator (STG), a deaerating surface condenser; a four-cell mechanical draft cooling tower; and associated support equipment.
? The CTGs are equipped with evaporative coolers on the inlet air system and water-injected combustors for the LM6000 model or dry low NOx combustors for the GTX 100 model.
? The heat recovery steam generators (HRSGs) will be of the horizontal, natural circulation type, equipped with duct burners. The emission reduction system includes a selective catalytic reduction (SCR) unit to control nitrogen oxide (NOx) stack emissions and an oxidation catalyst to control carbon monoxide (CO) emissions.
? A 40,000 pound-per-hour dual fuel-fired auxiliary boiler and a nominal 750 kW, diesel-fired standby generator will also be included in the project.
? A 50-foot-long pipeline will supply tertiary treated recycled waste water from Loreto Bay?s adjacent LBWWTP (Loreto Bay Waste Water Treatment Plant) for use as cooling tower makeup water, firewater, service water, and process makeup water.
? Cooling tower blowdown water will be treated through a zero liquid discharge (ZLD) treatment system located on the project site. As a result, no process wastewater will be discharged from the plant. A relatively small amount of salt cake will be produced by the ZLD system for off-site disposal at an approved landfill.
? A 60-kilovolt (kV) on-site switchyard will deliver the plant's power directly to the grid through a double-circuit 60 kV transmission line that will be located adjacent to the project site. This new line will be constructed along the projected alignment of the access road or an alternative road alignment as part of the LB development and will be looped directly through the project switchyard.
? Approximately 1 mile of 10- to 16-inch diameter underground natural gas pipeline and an equal amount of 4 to 6-inch diesel pipeline will convey fuel from the LB Fuel Storage Field to the project site.
? Potable water will temporarily be supplied to the project site from an on-site well. The project will use potable water from the Loreto Bay Desalination Plant distribution system when this water becomes available as part of the build-out of Loreto Bay?s infrastructure.
? Storm water runoff will be collected in ponds located on-site and be redirected to the Loreto Bay Industrial Park?s storm water treatment facility and bioswale.
? Sanitary waste water will be piped to the LBWWTP's influent junction structure, located approximately 800 feet east of the project site.

As you can see, the whole infrastructure thing is interrelated and no one item can really be addressed without including the rest.

Enjoy.

Cincodemayo - 2-16-2006 at 11:32 AM

Toad...You have waaay too much free time! :biggrin:

comitan - 2-16-2006 at 11:34 AM

TT

As I remember Morro Bay power plant takes in salt water because I remember them cleaning the filters(stink) and then to what degree changeing it to fresh water, I understand they release fresh water because everyone fishes there because it seems to attract fish. If this is true couldn't the water from the plant supply the whole area.

[Edited on 2-16-2006 by comitan]

turtleandtoad - 2-16-2006 at 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cincodemayo
Toad...You have waaay too much free time! :biggrin:

Yeah, I can't seem to retire. :lol:

And it was work on this or do my taxes

Cincodemayo - 2-16-2006 at 11:52 AM

Toad...Let me guess...Engineer or ex nuke?

turtleandtoad - 2-16-2006 at 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by comitan
TT

As I remember Morro Bay power plant takes in salt water because I remember them cleaning the filters(stink) and then to what degree changeing it to fresh water, I understand they release fresh water because everyone fishes there because it seems to attract fish. If this is true couldn't the water from the plant supply the whole area.

[Edited on 2-16-2006 by comitan]

The 1,002 mW Morro Bay plant is a 1950-60 generation plant (that is slated to be replaced by a modern 1,200 mW plant) that uses what is called "once-through" sea water cooling. This water is pulled in from Morro Bay and discharged into Estero Bay.

There is also some ancilliary waste water from the steam plant that is also mixed into the outflow. This ancilliary water started out as fresh but has low level contaminates when discharged (that's one of the sources of the "smell", the other is when they are cleaning the seawater side filters, which collect seaweed and small sealife that get trapped in the filters and die). These screens and filters have been seen in a couple of movies. I think one of them was a Bond movie.

The power plant does NOT make fresh water. The effluent is slightly less salty than when it came in. The fish and other sealife are attracted by the warmer water. The power plant has to monitor and regulate the effluent to prevent excessive heat, low salinity, and heavy metal contaniments.

Unfortunately this warm water is a breeding ground for unwanted and non-native sealife that ultimately disrupts the local marine cycle.

This same cooling system will be utilized for the new plant.

My concept doesn't affect the environment because there isn't any effluent release (until it's been processed), and it doesn't use sea water cooling. Thats the beauty of co-locating the power plant, the desal plant, and the sewage plant.

I doubt that the LB people have thought that far ahead.

turtleandtoad - 2-16-2006 at 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cincodemayo
Toad...Let me guess...Engineer or ex nuke?

BOTH !!!!

Boomers forever. Everything else are targets.

[Edited on 2-16-2006 by turtleandtoad]

Cincodemayo - 2-16-2006 at 01:14 PM

T&T...I could just tell! My neighbor is a retired nuke and a great friend is about to retire in a year. He can just look at something to build and it's done systematically....cars, boats..you name it. Bangor and Bremerton bases. Had tours on Tridents both in water and drydock. Absolutely amazing in drydock how immense those are!

turtleandtoad - 2-16-2006 at 01:32 PM

Cincodemayo
Been there done that! Had both as marine design clients before retiring.

But I started out on the old WWII diesel boats, USS Queenfish - SS 393. Open shears and a deck gun! You may have seen it; painted pink in "Operation Pettycoat".

Lots of eardrum-popping fun trying to snorkle in rough water in those old boats.

Cincodemayo - 2-16-2006 at 01:55 PM

T&T..
Well God bless ya for serving our country proudly and that goes for the rest of our Vets here on Nomad and abroad.

terrybird - 2-20-2006 at 05:08 PM

the mongol hordes( aka: baby-boomers)

Well, I've been called a lot of things.....:moon: :biggrin:

Mongol Hordes

capn.sharky - 2-20-2006 at 06:42 PM

Hey!! These are our little brothers and sisters. For the really old guys...your children born after 1944. No one can help it when or where they are born. Fact is, Baby Boomers, have lots of bucks and are looking for a better place to retire. Somewhere quiet and tranquil. I am older than a BB but, I don't label them. They have worked just as hard as we did....if not harder. They want to come to Baja---let them come. Use this board to tell them what to do and not to do to help them fit into the Baja scene. :yes:

capt. mike - 2-21-2006 at 05:47 AM

IS ANYONE EVER GOING TO POST HERE WHO ACTUALLY BOUGHT/LIVES AT LORETO BAY???????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

all this speculative discourse is so mundane.......lets have some empirical events puleeeeeeze. :lol:

Skeet/Loreto - 2-21-2006 at 08:16 AM

Mike: I did not buy at LB! Approx. 3 months ago I did a short Investigation-on Site= with out being observed only my friends.
This develop,emt could go on and make a good theing for Loreto or it will fall on its face from a couple of things, Water and poser being the biggest Problem!
I knew and observed 2 people that are High Muckey Muckies in a very important part of this operation- I would not trust them any further than I could throw them!!!

If it does Fail, "What does it Hurt? It is only Money and most Mexicanos I know can do a good Job of Surviving on Beans and Rice and some fish and still be happy. It will be the "Outsiders who lose the Money-No big Deal+

Skeet/Loreto

vandenberg - 2-21-2006 at 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
.

I knew and observed 2 people that are High Muckey Muckies in a very important part of this operation- I would not trust them any further than I could throw them!!!

Skeet
You're getting too old to throw anybody. Probably hurt your back. :lol:

Skeet/Loreto

Skeet/Loreto - 2-21-2006 at 08:45 AM

Van: Did just that yesterday! leading a mare into the Barn and both legs gave way. Little sore this morning.
I have been trying for three years to find the cause of the Problems, MRI, Doppler, XRAy, 2 Nerve TESTs, still the Doctors will not come up with anything. Oh Well One of these Days m,aybe it will Fall off!!

Difficult to kick Butt with One Leg!!

Skeet/Loreto

Someone may be interested in joining this

bajajudy - 2-21-2006 at 09:26 AM

Last year at Grupo Tortuguero Conference in Loreto, there were representatives from this group. Maybe some of you in Loreto would be interested in getting in touch with them about the water questions.
http://www.waterkeeper.org/mainjoin.aspx

capn.sharky - 2-21-2006 at 11:48 AM

Capt. George said " is so mundane.......lets have some empirical events puleeeeeeze. :lol:

"
Empirical events. Come on George, did you look that word up in the dictionary?
You want empirical events, go to Iraq. Loreto is a peaceful little town. Too dull for you, I guess. Youse guys from New Yok need action all the time. Come on back down and visit me. Russ

turtleandtoad - 2-21-2006 at 03:03 PM

Webster On-line

Main Entry: em?pir?i?cal
Pronunciation: -i-k&l
Variant(s): also em?pir?ic /-ik/
Function: adjective
1 : originating in or based on observation or experience <empirical data>
2 : relying on experience or observation alone often without due regard for system and theory
3 : capable of being verified or disproved by observation or experiment <empirical laws>
4 : of or relating to empiricism

In other words; Lets hear some first-hand observations.

Very common word for anyone who took science in high school (and stayed awake).

But, empirical 'evidence' probably would have been better.

bajalera - 2-21-2006 at 03:52 PM

Why not just say "first-hand report"?

[Edited on 2-21-2006 by bajalera]

Skeet/Loreto - 2-21-2006 at 04:16 PM

Judy: Went to your recommended Water Site;
For a one sided View it was very well done. I still think that they could get more support if theydid not use scare words such as "Babies".

One of the largest Water Problem is in the Central Valley of Calif.

How do you produce th food that feeds millions of people and still keep it Clean??
How do you produce Milk that feeds millions of People without messing up the Water??

We, all of us, benefit from the Production of Food, therefore all must pay for that production and the clean up of the Water.

The problem with the Envior Groups is they do not want to pay, they want the Producer to Pay.

There is justnot enough Water in Loreto to support another 25,000 People. A desalt Plant will do the Job

Skeet

Skeet/Loreto - 2-21-2006 at 04:43 PM

Larry; You hit the Nail on the Head!!
If you do math on the number of Planned Homes you can come up with the number of people that will or could be using those Homes.

If you go to a power Grid company such as Gurnsey and ask them to supply that many homes they can give you the cost and the power necessary.

La Paz cannot supply that much power without tripleing their Plant.

Skeet/Loreto

turtleandtoad - 2-21-2006 at 04:44 PM

6000 homes x 4.5 people/family (Mother, Father and 2.5 kids) = 27,000 people.

And that's not counting the people running the infrastructure (power, water, sewage, shops, gardeners, cooks, maids, waste management, etc.)

Don Alley - 2-21-2006 at 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by turtleandtoad
6000 homes x 4.5 people/family (Mother, Father and 2.5 kids) = 27,000 people.

And that's not counting the people running the infrastructure (power, water, sewage, shops, gardeners, cooks, maids, waste management, etc.)

Fonatur predicts 10 new Mexican national arrivals settling in Loreto for each unit built. At build out, that would mean 60,000 folks. Nor just cooks, maids, gardeners, etc, but "unemployed" as well.

Promotional efforts by LB will also help increase interest in other developments. More people.

And the university study rejected the 10 person per unit figure. They predict 20.

Don Alley - 2-21-2006 at 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
IS ANYONE EVER GOING TO POST HERE WHO ACTUALLY BOUGHT/LIVES AT LORETO BAY???????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

all this speculative discourse is so mundane.......lets have some empirical events puleeeeeeze. :lol:

Mike, we don't live in Loreto Bay. But when a company says they will build 6000 units three miles from where we do live, obviously we are interested.

We have legitimate questions. Will LB take water that we now use? Will they force rationing of current water supplies? Will there be enough electricity? If there are shortages, who has priorities, the folks at LB and Fonatur, or city folks? If desal plants are built, will our water rates subsidize them? Same with sewage.

Yes, sure, we speculate, and we lack good "empirical events" or good information. All the information from LB seems to be salesmanship babble about "sustainability," which I find to be "so mundane."

My Friend Capn Sharky

Sonora Wind - 2-21-2006 at 05:55 PM

That was My Friend Captain Mike with the Mundane, not My Friend Capt George. But we all make mistakes, even Captain Jim of the Sonora Wind LOL :cool:

Note to self: I can't aford it anyway.

Note to self: I can't keep track of all us damn capins.

bajajudy - 2-21-2006 at 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

You're probably right. Desalination sounds pretty attractive when one is on the edge of such a large body of water, especially if a bunch of high-consuming rich folks want it to happen. What I haven't heard brought up much when folks talk about desal (probably reverse osmosis?) is the power source. How much is necessary to desalinate water for 25,000 folks (where'd you get that number, by the way)? Where's that power come from? What's the impact of generating it?

--Larry

And what will happen to the Sea of Cortez where they take the water to desalinate. Wont that change the marine life. Wont that harm it. Isnt that a Marine Park, protected by the Mexican government. :biggrin:

Cincodemayo - 2-21-2006 at 06:51 PM

Will the desal plant and water usage lower the water level in the Sea of Cortez???

turtleandtoad - 2-21-2006 at 08:02 PM

One of the byproducts of a desal plant is an extremely salty brine. If not properly handled it can have an adverse affect on the local environment. If discharged back into the ocean, it will raise the salinity of the local water, making it inhabitable to the local marine life. The size of this desolate area is dependent on the amount of brine pumped back into the ocean.

If discharged onto the land, the land will become a wasteland, unable to support life of any kind for thousands of years. (think "the Utah Salt Flats) It will also seep into the local aquifer, contaminating wells for miles around.

However, it would not lower the level of the Sea of Cortez. At least not in the forseeable future.

Phil S - 2-21-2006 at 08:17 PM

Wilderone. Still waiting for your response as to the problems you related to with David Butterfield & Jim Grogan. Something about their having a "past" that included some failures. I'd like for you to give us further details if you wouldn't mind. I'd like to investigate those further, to be able to make my own decisions regarding how serious they might be. Several friends of ours here in Nopolo are also interested in knowing. Awaiting your reply. Thanks, Wilderone. Phil S

Phil S - 2-21-2006 at 08:19 PM

It's one thing to "impact" those of us who live here in Nopolo for the past years. It's another thing to cause problems for those that live in Loreto. Many people have just concerns, and if I'm reading Pams comments earlier, I'm seeing a change in attitude regarding her concerns. Right Pam.????
Did something recently effect you that involved Loreto Bay????

Sallysouth - 2-21-2006 at 08:41 PM

And where would Pams'post be ? I sure can't find it!!!

vandenberg - 2-21-2006 at 08:45 PM

Sally

Start at page 4 and you'll find them. There are quite a few.

Pompano - 2-22-2006 at 08:34 AM

Remember the great proposed new condo project going south out of Ensenada..now years later with the laundry hanging on the railings..and the..whew..smells from the ill-planned water and sewage systems? Loreto in ten years, perhaps? We all hope not. :no:

turtleandtoad - 2-22-2006 at 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by turtleandtoad
One of the byproducts of a desal plant is an extremely salty brine. If not properly handled it can have an adverse affect on the local environment.

And if properly handled, could be it's well on the way to being table salt. Hmmm....

--Larry

Exactly, the whole utilities infrastructure should be a totally integrated system.

Such as:
The power plant utilizes the effluent from the sewage plant for cooling; this heated water is then sent to the desalination plant for heat extraction. The power plant also burns waste from the community. After being used in the power plant, this heat energy is also reclaimed at the desalination plant.

From the desalination plant, the water is then sent through a cooling tower to the farms surrounding the utilities complex for irrigation. This water then perks down to the aquifer, replenishing it. Some of it would be rerouted to the power plants retaining ponds/tanks to repeat the cooling/heating cycle.

Another option for the power plant retaining ponds would be to use them to raise fresh-water fish or shrimp. One of the biggest fresh-water shrimp farms in the America?s is currently in Texas, has proven the technology, and is making a very nice profit.

The solid waste from the sewage plant would be sterilized (via UV radiation, no chemicals) and sent to the farms for fertilizer. These farms could be leased or sold to the locals for operation.

The desalination plant would send the brine to the salt farms where it would be placed in evaporation ponds with impermeable liners for salt extraction. Or some of it could be recombined with some of the cooling water and either used in salt-water fish farms (another employment opportunity for the local population) or discharged into the Sea of Cortez (at the proper temperature and salinity).

Another shared energy source would be the community garbage. It would go into pits with impermeable liners, the pits would be capped and the resulting decomposition gases would be pulled off and burned in the power plant. As the decomposition continued, the liquid would be put through the sewage plant and the solids would be UV radiated and sent to the farms.

This cycle is based on an evaporative desalination plant; it would be modified slightly if a reverse osmosis plant is used.

Note that salt-water cooling isn?t used because it isn?t needed.

Once again; this would be my approach, I doubt that LB (or Fonatur) has gotten any farther in planning the utilities than throwing around words like desalination and carp ponds in their news releases.

Cincodemayo - 2-22-2006 at 11:09 AM

T&T...
Jumbo prawns work for me! As for RO filtration it's the purest H2O around....even filters out the atomic wastewater from carriers and subs as we all know cause it's particulate matter! :biggrin:

[Edited on 2-22-2006 by Cincodemayo]

vandenberg - 2-22-2006 at 11:30 AM

Again,
What kind of money are we talking about for such an integrated system for a community the size of Loreto Bay ?? :?:

turtleandtoad - 2-22-2006 at 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cincodemayo
T&T...
even filters out the atomic wastewater from carriers and subs as we all know cause it's particulate matter! :biggrin:

[Edited on 2-22-2006 by Cincodemayo]

You're kidding right? :lol:

As I hope your nuke friend has already pointed out; Nukes don't have any "atomic" wastewater. They are a closed system. The seawater used for machinery cooling is about as radioactive as a glow in the dark watch dial.

As to the cost of my system? As I said in an earlier post, I'm not familiar with construction costs in Mexico, but as a SWAG, I'd say in the neighborhood of 400-600 million. That's for a system that would handle both Loreto Bay and Loreto. In a system like this, bigger is more cost effective.

Assuming the operating entity only took 10% profit from the annual revenues, this system would pay for itself in about 30 years. That's also a SWAG.

turtleandtoad - 2-22-2006 at 02:57 PM

OK, I give; what's a sexenio?

Cincodemayo - 2-22-2006 at 02:59 PM

Of course I'm kidding. That would be Greenpeace's nightmare :lol:

This could be a water bottling dream come true...$1.25 for a pint bottle of Baja's best H2O. Just like Dasani but name it Bajani.

turtleandtoad - 2-22-2006 at 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cincodemayo
This could be a water bottling dream come true...$1.25 for a pint bottle of Baja's best H2O. Just like Dasani but name it Bajani.

Another income stream I overlooked. (pun intended) :lol:

Dave - 2-22-2006 at 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by turtleandtoad
OK, I give; what's a sexenio?

The amount of time it takes for a Mexican administration to have nonconsensual relations with all its constituents.

turtleandtoad - 2-22-2006 at 03:21 PM

:lol:

vandenberg - 2-22-2006 at 03:28 PM

Quote:

.

As to the cost of my system? As I said in an earlier post, I'm not familiar with construction costs in Mexico, but as a SWAG, I'd say in the neighborhood of 400-600 million. That's for a system that would handle both Loreto Bay and Loreto. In a system like this, bigger is more cost effective.

Assuming the operating entity only took 10% profit from the annual revenues, this system would pay for itself in about 30 years. That's also a SWAG.

A friend of mine on this forum quoted me a system in Cabo that handles a complete resort ( don't know size ) and was build for under $ 2 mill. Is this possible and possibly of interest to this project ?? I have my doubts ,but he insists it's viable. Like to hear some opinions on this.
BTW, the projects I,ve seen on Google from all over the world( Calif. included ) show only projects into mega millions.

vandenberg - 2-22-2006 at 03:33 PM

BTW

Is our " FRIEND OF BAJA " paying attention to this thread??

turtleandtoad - 2-22-2006 at 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
.
A friend of mine on this forum quoted me a system in Cabo that handles a complete resort ( don't know size ) and was build for under $ 2 mill. Is this possible and possibly of interest to this project ?? I have my doubts ,but he insists it's viable. Like to hear some opinions on this.
BTW, the projects I,ve seen on Google from all over the world( Calif. included ) show only projects into mega millions.

Was this a fully integrated system with power, water, sewage, and waste disposal that is environmentally friendly?

or was it just a power or water system that dumped the byproducts back into the ocean?

For the price, it sounds like a small RO water or diesel power plant.

As to the costs you've found on the net, the ones you've seen are probably a lot larger than mine. Plus they probably include things like property aquisition, permitting fees, and others that I haven't included.

Of course even though 600M is a little shy of 1 Billion, it's still in the mega-million catagory. :lol:

And bribes, strikes and cost overruns would probably push it over the 1 billion mark.

terrybird - 2-22-2006 at 05:30 PM

Perhaps they could use the "hoard" to run in little cages to produce electricity, or as sponges to sop up waste or for fuel, eee!
Maybe the current administration could sort out these problems when thier term(s) are up, eee! :wow:

Phil S - 2-22-2006 at 05:34 PM

Last November, while staying at Bueblo Bonito Sunset Beach Resort where we have a fix date time share for two weeks, one of the "tours" of the facility was their desalt plant. I took pictures, as I was really impressed. (first & only system I've ever seen) I'd guess that they service their facility only, and for their intended expansion program that is currently in effect. Took about an hour to do the tour. I'd put the pic's on, but since I don't know how, that will not go any further. They are in my Kodak software system on this laptop. Since I'm on "dial up" here in Nopolo, it would take months before you'd get them all. Anyway. The cost they mentioned during their earlier construction was $2M and that would have been about three years ago. Ed is having problems accepting that $2M would build one three years ago. It doesn't look that complicated. Pumps, motors, valves, tanks, huge reservoir, etc, and an impressive electronic electrical panel with lots of gauges & screens. Their water line runs underground from the complex to the Pacific side, and out quite a ways. I don't know about discharges back into the ocean. For a layman, it was very impressive.

turtleandtoad - 2-22-2006 at 05:57 PM

Phil,
To help me get a better feel for construction costs in Mexico, could you answer a couple of questions?

1) Was the plant a Reverse Osmosis or Evaporative type? (evaporative plants have boilers and big steam lines running everywhere).

2) How big is the Resort (number of people, or number of rooms/cabins or maybe the website of the resort).

I'm guessing that, due to labor rates, Mexican construction costs are going to be about 50-66% less than if the same plant was built in the US.

If you can answer the two questions above, and assuming that the 2 million cost is valid, I can interpolate the cost vs size and adjust for inflation. This would give me greater confidence in my own estimates.

Thanks.

Phil S - 2-22-2006 at 07:53 PM

I'm sure it was the Reverse Osmosis system.
Pueblo Bonito Sunset Beach Resort (pueblobonitosunsetbeach.com)
Boy numbers wise, would be a wild guess. There are I think 30 buildings, plus averaging about six units per building up to ten units per building.
Plus they have just completed their all inclusive hotel (adults only) that is I believe six stories. Maybe 150 rooms. They are building fractional timeshare houses up on the side of their mountain, that will be maybe 60 homes, & all with swimming pools & separate hot tubs. Plus there is an area that they are building individual custom homes. There will be two l8 hole golf courses with home custom homes around the golf course. I just stay there for two weeks every Thanksgiving, and get thawed out. This is one heck of a project, and Wendy & I really love it there for a two week break from the Nopolo experience. Wish I could give you more numbers. Sorry.

turtleandtoad - 2-22-2006 at 09:19 PM

Anyone got a number for what a kW/h costs in Baja Sur?

Don Alley - 2-22-2006 at 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by turtleandtoad
Anyone got a number for what a kW/h costs in Baja Sur?

Billing:

First 150 kWh 0.595
next 250 kWh 0.983
additional kWh 2.073

Actual production costs are about 2.088 pesos per kwh

capn.sharky - 2-22-2006 at 10:13 PM

TNT: I am just finishing up two condos in Loreto. They are two story and each has about 1,000 square feet. Balconys, two bathrooms each side, dual pane Milguard windows and tiled floors throughout. Built them for $25.00 a square foot. Add in the land and it comes to $27.50 sq. foot. But you gotta know who you are dealing with and use really good guys. I was lucky.

turtleandtoad - 2-22-2006 at 10:15 PM

Thanks all,
Now I got some numbers to crunch.

Bob and Susan - 2-23-2006 at 06:25 AM

Sharky you were VERY lucky!!!

Do you have some pics you could post???

fdt - 2-23-2006 at 06:32 AM

BCS governor sais LB has all his support because it has complied with all of it's promises, contracting local workers, respect for the enviroment and respect for workers rights. :?:

http://www.oem.com.mx/elsudcaliforniano/notas_e.asp?urlnota=...

Phil S - 2-23-2006 at 07:01 AM

And to top that off, conversation of last weekends sales promotion brought another 75 sales, or what must be another 75 "idiots" as some of the Nomads would say. I'd prefer to say, another 75 "believers". And yes, I believe in the good tooth fairy, & Santa Claus. You can live your lives as skeptics, or you can live your life as positive thinkers. One of the reasons I'm able to afford spending time down in Loreto area, is because I've had a positive attitude most of my working life. How have your lives been, those of you who reflect back & see your past as having been with negative impacts & outlooks. Bad choices & decisions? It's all done by having the ability to make the right decisions throughout life. Mine hasn't been 100% for sure, but it's been good to me most of the time. And I love Loreto area & the people that live here, and the ones that are moving here. I only have to overcome the health issues that plague me when I'm here, and so far this winter, I've been o.k. Think positive. Be positive!!!!!!!!!!

Pompano - 2-23-2006 at 07:07 AM

capn. sharky: Your two units cost you $27 sq ft w/land in 2006. Thirty-some years ago, mid to late 70's, I was building 1100-1200 sq. ft. studio/condos in the US (AZ-MT-ND-MN) for the same price....$26-$28 sq. ft including land costs.

My construction costs today in the Bay are equivalent to 30 year old prices in the US also, but as you said, to reach that price, you need to get personally involved, buy right, and hire capable, efficienct 'craftsmen', not grunts. I am sure the project managers are doing the same in Loreto.

[Edited on 2-23-2006 by Pompano]

jimgrms - 2-23-2006 at 08:48 AM

Having been a construction worker allmost my entire life( union electrician, i have found that contractor's and developers will not take any responsibilty for thier project 's shortcomings,unless forced by law to do so ,and the only thing the law can do is stop them from doing buisness,

capn.sharky - 2-23-2006 at 09:10 AM

Pompano---You are absolutely right. I started this project a year ago in 2005. I have done very little fishing during the past year and a lot of managing. I was lucky to have a really good Mexican friend to oversee this for me. Also my superintendent was really good and committed to the project. I don't think this would work for Loreto Bay. Too big a project. We pay weekly and always pay the guys. Phil: I am a skeptic---but I have had a very good life. Traveled all over the world. Same wife for 41 years. Raised four great kids. But I have been lied to in my life---hence I am a skeptic. Also, I have visited Mexico for most of my life (Loreto for 35 years) and I have seen the broken dreams. I remember Puerto Escondido when all the workers showed up and put in curbs, lighting, etc. I though this would be the end of the world---or at least, the end of my quiet Loreto. Hah!!! Two weeks and they all took off nothing happened after that. I am disappointed in LB for reasons mentioned above. I don't really see any benefit to the pueblo of Loreto (except maybe taxes). No benefit for most of the Loreto workers. Best case scenario---it stays south of town and the people buying will hire Loretanos to work down there. The promises are kept and water and trash are taken care of by the LB company. I really don't see many coming into town to buy groceries, etc.---but time will tell. Viva La Raza y Skepticos.

Skeet/Loreto - 2-23-2006 at 09:49 AM

there is a Large Lot or Area up on top of the Road going To Villa. Many years ago I looked into gettin that lot, building a shor Raod anoud to the Sea Side where you could see all the Way to Catalina. I talked to Rodrigo about gettin a Loader where Icould build a Road in a couple of Days-At that time would have to bring the laoder from La Paz.

Rodrigo said tome" Mosco, I have 5 friends with Families, we could build the Road with Pick and shovel, therefore their families would have something to eat and some money to buy clothes.

It still remains the same, most projects are done by Hand Labor at a slower pace[such as the recent import of Wokers}.
If LB was to decide on a new Power Plant, it would have to bring in outside Help whichwould be very expensive. It would be cheaper o bring Water down the Colo River, load it on large Barges and float to Loreto, then to build a Power Plant would cost more tthan the whole SouthernState could Float.

Went to a Don Williams concert last night with two very upper employees of Gurnesey Corp.{A very Large Power System in the Souther Area. I questioned at lenght{Over several Cervasas] Loretos Problems. their take seem to be that was here in the US we are fac ing anEnergy Crisis that will result in New Expansion all over the world., and those Areas that are dircetly involved with the "20 Year long War" will get all the attention and Money.

So it maybe a double whammy aganist LB trying to get Power or Water into Loreto under those Conditions.
there CEO.s are warning that the strongist effort for Power and theProtection of Water will be directed toward the War efforts.

Skeet/Loreto

turtleandtoad - 2-23-2006 at 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phil S
I'm sure it was the Reverse Osmosis system.
Pueblo Bonito Sunset Beach Resort (pueblobonitosunsetbeach.com)
Boy numbers wise, would be a wild guess. There are I think 30 buildings, plus averaging about six units per building up to ten units per building.
Plus they have just completed their all inclusive hotel (adults only) that is I believe six stories. Maybe 150 rooms. They are building fractional timeshare houses up on the side of their mountain, that will be maybe 60 homes, & all with swimming pools & separate hot tubs. Plus there is an area that they are building individual custom homes. There will be two l8 hole golf courses with home custom homes around the golf course. I just stay there for two weeks every Thanksgiving, and get thawed out. This is one heck of a project, and Wendy & I really love it there for a two week break from the Nopolo experience. Wish I could give you more numbers. Sorry.

Well Phil, the numbers have been crunched and the results are;

Yes, you can build a RO plant to handle a large resort for under 2 million. However, it will only supply about half of the water for a resort the size of Pueblo Bonito Sunset Beach. For 3 million you don?t have to rely on outside water. None of this considers the golf courses (which may be using reclaimed water) or hillside homes.

Pueblo Bonito Sunset Beach has 327 guest rooms, 3 restaurants, 4 bars, 4 pools, Spa and 2 Plunge tubs. This calculates to 1308 AF/A (Acre Feet/Annum) or1,167,840 gpd (gallons per day).

By using the numbers provided by forum members and comparing the construction costs of similar projects in both California and Mexico, I?ve come up with a ?rule of thumb?, or ROT, for my SWAG?s (Scientific Wild Ass Guesses). That is; it costs about $2.50 US per gpd to build a reverse osmosis plant in Baja Mexico.

Using my ROT and the above gpd, I come up with $2,919,600.00 US. If you only supply half of the water it is $1,459,800.00 US.

This does not consider that it?s probable that, as the gpd goes up, the cost per gallon may go down. That?s one of the problems with ROT?s

By the way, the electrical power to operate a RO plant using saltwater is about 8,900kWh/AFA (it?s lower if they are using brackish water). So the above $3 million plant would cost about $6,530 US/day to pay the electric bill (unless they made some kind of deal with the power company). That would work out to about $9.30 US/day per guest, based on double occupancy (as they like to say in the tourist trade).

Of course when you combine ROT?s with SWAG?s your results may be GIGO (garbage in, garbage out). :lol:

And that, my friends is called CYA (covering your ass) :lol:

If anyone gets the chance to visit this resort, I'd be interested in how close (or far) my results are to the actual figures.

[Edited on 2-23-2006 by turtleandtoad]

Phil S - 2-23-2006 at 07:38 PM

TNT: Wow. Great report, and quick!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Thank you. Now maybe someone can convert your ROT & SWAG's to actual figures, since you've done most of the hard work.
Ed. Am I more credible now???????

Bob and Susan - 2-23-2006 at 07:49 PM

TNT

I'm sorry but I really have to ask this....

Were you wearing clothes when you SWAGED this? :lol:

turtleandtoad - 2-23-2006 at 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
TNT

I'm sorry but I really have to ask this....

Were you wearing clothes when you SWAGED this? :lol:

I know this isn't the answer you're expecting but, no I was naked as a jaybird.

But thats because I'm a nudist (as anyone that has visited my website already knows) and am currently in a nudist resort in Phoenix AZ. :lol:

Bob and Susan - 2-23-2006 at 08:20 PM

:lol:

thats why you are why out in nowhere land...

i'll have to see what google earth has as a picture :lol:

[Edited on 2-24-2006 by Bob and Susan]

vandenberg - 2-23-2006 at 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Phil S
Ed. Am I more credible now???????

NO, not by a long shot.
And BTW quit pontificating !!. If you have any more inclanation in that direction, I have a soap box I could loan you. Straight from Hyde Park, with oratorial know how build in. You need it.

Skeet/Loreto - 2-24-2006 at 08:59 AM

Toad: Glad to see that you are in a Park. Sure would hate to see you on that Motorcycle in San Francisco!!!

Skeet

turtleandtoad - 2-24-2006 at 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bob and Susan
:lol:

thats why you are why out in nowhere land...

i'll have to see what google earth has as a picture :lol:

[Edited on 2-24-2006 by Bob and Susan]

Just look for the nekked guy with a laptop alongside the pool! :lol:

turtleandtoad - 2-24-2006 at 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Toad: Glad to see that you are in a Park. Sure would hate to see you on that Motorcycle in San Francisco!!!

Skeet

Haven't you ever joined the San Fran nude fun run? :?:

Loreto Bay recent sales event

Phil S - 4-30-2006 at 12:09 PM

Word has it, another sales event produces 37 more sales as of two week ends ago. Per Bob Toubman, CEO Loreto Bay Mexico when providing a question & answer session to Nopolo property owners (Loreto Bay owners were also invited) Much discussion about water, sewer & electric. One interesting aspect of that meeting was, the wind generators will be built on the Pacific side very near San Carlos, where there is already an electrical generating plant operating. So the power that the "fans" will generate will be placed into the existing power grid. Estimated to be 20Kwatts. More than they will use. Excess will be provided to surrounding communities as needed. "we will generated more power than we will use". (quote unquote) Water: Geologists have explored the mountains to the west of Nopolo, identifying fizzures, and they will construct diversions, that will slow down the runoff during normal rain conditions, allowing the water to return to the water table. Let me throw in a comment by a rancher on the San Juan Valley, that I visited with recently with an interpretor, that in an 8 sq.kilometers there are 6 wells drilled on his property. Of an 11 wells that were drilled in the area. Four wells able to produce immediately, of which three are presently operating. When established about 15 years ago, the water table dropped 30 meters during the first 5 years. From that date forward, there has been no further drop in the water level. When I asked if he was worried about all this growth, he responded by saying, "he didn't feel there was anything to worry about"
Also at the Loreto Bay meeting was the Director of BMO who stated that there are two wells at Nopolo to the west of the highway. Water is supplied to the reservoir at Nopolo, to suppliment the water pumped to Nopolo, twice a week from the Loreto Reservoir. He also advised that in the city of Loreto there are many lines in need of repair to cut down on the waste of water. (I can add a campaign in effect with posters, stating, "conserve water". You can see much waste of the water being hosed onto dusty streets. As the streets are paved, there will be less water used in hosing them down. As Loreto Bay says,"we will conserve more water than will be used". Time will tell if all these things will actually happen. But to a resident of Nopolo, it appears Loreto Bay is not just sitting around doing nothing.

Skeet/Loreto - 4-30-2006 at 01:35 PM

Good Post Phil!

We will know for sure when the next 7 year Drought Occurs!

When you were talking to your Rancher Friend, did he tell you how many Ranchers had sold their Property Rights to the City of Loreto?

Are precautions being made for a Hurricane?
I was sitting in Tio's Front yard when Lisa came close, winds were only 85 MPH.
The Arroyo ran completely full for 3 days, the debri moved out 7 miles into the Sea Of Cortez. That storm is what made the Nice sand Beach just south of the Hotel Oasis.

The Debri washed down from the Mountains contained Donkeys still with their Hitching Posts as well as several Coral Snakes.

It also washed away 80 tons of Gravel that was being used for road construction.

Think what another Storm like that will do out North where they ran two arroyos together just North of Rancho Sonrisa.
Miramar would be wiped clean.

Hope they have planned for Drought and Storms. that was the same storm that took several Hundred people out into the Bay in La Paz where they were consumed by Sharks.

Nature is very destructive at times.

Skeet/Loreto

cpg - 4-30-2006 at 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto

the same storm that took several Hundred people out into the Bay in La Paz where they were consumed by Sharks.

Nature is very destructive at times.

Skeet/Loreto

When did this happen?

Skeet/Loreto - 5-1-2006 at 03:46 AM

Cpg: Long Story: Please go to Noaa and Ckeck out Hurrcaine "Lisa" for the accruate Date. I will have to dig in my old files for the exact Date
There had been a 7 year Drought-The Ranchers of the Mountains lead by Gloria Benziger Davis"S Father had hired a company out of Texas to spray Silver Oxicide{SP] in the the Mountains from La Paz North, as many cattle were dying from the lack of Water. The pilot would take off each Day from La Paz wait until the "Boombers" had built to a certain level, then with his special built Cessna 210{ with a Metal Screen would go into the clouds and dump his chemical at about 20,000 Ft. He returned each day to LaPaz were theywould use "Bondo" to smooth the leading edge of the wings,Preparing him for the next day's flight..
It is said by the old timers,that his spraying was successful as Hurricane "Lisa" arrived a few days later.

The storm moved in and hit La Paz on its south edge, and Villa Constitution on its North side.
The Arroyro above the Malacon in La pazhad a small Dam above,which broke,People had built their small shantys along its side. On breaking it wiped clean all of those shanties along with the People in them,!
The Mexican govt. under reported the Number Missing!

I had a friend who was coming back from a fishing Trip down south pulling his small 14 Ft. Valco behind a Mustang. the winds caught him south of Villa, taking the boat completely off and rolling nearly a Mile before it stopped. he ended up in the Hospital, as he was attempting to Hold the boat down, broke his right Shoulder.

Tio Don O'Neil and I tied down his Palapa with ropes and heavy Rocks and decided to set the storm out in a Large MotorHome.Winds reach about 85 MPH.

The next day, the Water came out of the Mountains , running full the Arroyo between Loreto and the Colonia.The only way to get across was by Boat.
the Amount of Water was of such force and Volume that it did the Damage described, created the long Sand Spit to the south of the Hotel Oasis,lined the Beachs of Loreto with Debri 2 to 3 Feet High.
Tio and I inspected the Debri and found many Items in that debri, including the Coral Snakes, donkeys still tied to their Hitching Posts!!

the following day we went out and measured the Debri flow at about 7 miles offshore from Loreto. the fishing was great as the Dorado and Sharks and other fish were coming into the area an attacking all of the things washed down and out into the Bay.

My Friend Alvaro Murrillo Romero had been to La Paz to pick up the body of a family member. They could not get through the Arroyo near Villa, had to Finally hire a large Flat Bed to get them across{Three Days after the Storm}

It is very difficult to beleive the amount of Water volume that came down out of the Mountains!

It was many days before the water finally stopped-That is why Loreto has the large Berms built North as you go into Sargrosa.

Just talk to some of the Ole Timers when you visit Loreto.

Skeet/Loreto

"In God I Trust"

Skeet

Baja Bernie - 5-1-2006 at 05:33 AM

I'm going to steal and use, somehow, that line about the Donkeys and the hitching posts--visuals are great--gulp!

flyfishinPam - 5-1-2006 at 05:36 AM

Don't need to talk to old timers about storms and the arroyo flooding. The arroyo flooded during Hurricane Juliette in 2001 and again during Ignacio and Marty in 2003. Marty packed winds of 98 mph a borderline catagory 2 storm. The eye was about 30 miles East of Loreto when it passed by. My daughter and I were caught in in at my shop. The streets flooded all over town and the marina was destroyed. Miramar was spared during all three of these storms. Chile Wille restaurant was gutted out from encroaching waves. The waves came into Macawas restaurant too. We were lucky the storm wasn't closer or stronger.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-1-2006 at 03:57 PM

Pam; I know that your Were Not!!!! in Loreto on one october when a "Whip Storm'{that is a Storm formed only in the Sea Of corez} chased all of the Pangas south in a Frensey.Two of the Pangas came sliding up in front Of Rancho Sonrisa, rapidly removing their Clients and running for cover inside our Palapa which had 67 windows. They helped us Hold the windows from the inside, it still took the Hinges and two windows and tore them loose, tore out the Electric Poles down at the Hotel Oasis. After the brief Storm which reached and estimated 95 miles per Hour, all of the people came out , as 11 Pangas were still missing. They had taken shelter at Coronado.
I would suggest that you get a copy of "The Baja guide and read it ~!!

I still suggest that if you want the True stories about the Facts that you talk to Alvaro Murrillo Romero, His Brothers, are Martin the Son of Enrique Murrillo.
I started fishing with Alvaro and his Brother Enrique in their Wooden Boat in 1968,staying at the Hotel Oasis when it had only 6 rooms, $9.00 a night including 3 meals, Bill was bringing water from a pump a quarter of a mile away.
Your World is completely different now, but the old time fisherman from San Nicholas are still the Best fisherman in Loreto!!!!

Skeet/Loreto
Skeeter Peter
Anon The Preacher

"In God I Trust"

Skeet/Loreto - 5-1-2006 at 07:44 PM

Pam: Another story from an "Old timer"!!

Were you in Loreto when the Storm blew down the Fancy Bridge at the Golf Course??

If not this iswhat happened:

Viginia and I departed from in Front of "Rancho Sonrisa' very early headed for "Manderos Reef". We stood off the Point of Coronado, feeling the Water--No wave action at 5

o Am. It was safe to go!! Proceeded a45 minute trip to the Reef, arriving just at lite to see fish all over the top of the Water-Fantastic fishing! Two other Pangas{Mexicano fisherman arrived!}

Fishing like Crazy when we looked uo and Coronado disappeared!!! We all three knew we were in Trouble so headed directly {90 Degrees to Manaderos} We stayed together and had one of the Worst rides for 20 minutes, rollers to 8 feet off our Port Side, Virginia was scared out of her Mind.
Proceeded south to Loreto arriving off of Doctors Point to find a "flying tigers boat, out of Fuel anchored with the Captian and 3 Pasengers.
In Trouble!
Pulled my trusty little Panga and the Capitan transferred across, turned to go through Pass and encornered at least 11 Ft. Waves. A wild ride into Loreto where I dropped the Captian, later to see him heading back to rescue his Stranded boat. He had left instructions that if the waves got Higher to cut the Line and Beach the boat.!

He was luckey, the wind died and he was able to get to his people.

"The Day the Wind Blew down the Golf Course Bridge" by Skeet/Loreto

Skeet/Loreto - 5-1-2006 at 08:31 PM

I forgot the lesson that I had learned several years prior from my good Friend Alvaro Murillo;
Alvaro had told me that any time on the Sea Of Cortez that you Hear Thunder and there are no clouds- Head for the closest place of Safety!!
I had "heard the thunder"but the fishing was so good that I ignored the Warning-

Skeet/Loreto

flyfishinPam - 5-2-2006 at 03:32 PM

Skeet I hope you don't think I was challenging you when I described some storms that occurred since I've been living here, I was not. There is potential for storms even into the future and the question is can the Villages at LB withstand them? Our home is up on the rise abive Miramar and personally having been through Marty at the malecon I would much rather be in our high spot anyday. We are so luck you to have the internet so available and advanced warning in the form of on the spot satellite images. The pangueros know how the read the clouds and the water, they know when behaviours of animals both land and sea change as predicting severe weather to come. Thanks for the stories I love to hear the old timers tales about everything.

Pescador - 5-2-2006 at 03:40 PM

Turtle and toad: Boy is it refreshing to read your comments. I heard all this info about how they were going to de de-sal plants and the like but being a water operator, I knew the ins and outs of this operation. If cities normally figure 1 acre foot or 326,000 gallons per family per year, and due to the "water conservation" efforts of LB, we cut that in half, we still come up with an astronomical amount of water needed to fund this project. 150,000 x 600 units is somewhere around 90 million gallons of water. At the rates needed for de-sal, this puts it out of reach from everyone except the very rich.
Perhaps even more interesting is the fact that we keep trying to kill the goose that lays the golden egg. One does not have to read this forum for very long to realize that most of the people here were looking for a place that was a little rustic, laid back in comparison to "back home", populated by a warm and carefree population, priced lower than back in Canada and the US, maybe a little good fishing thrown in, and that wonderful sun and sand for the real clinch. Now, Southern California has a lot of the same characteristics, but I have no interest in going there to camp or live in an RV for months at a time. Fly Fishing Pam, who I consider to be very astute and bright relates that following 9-11, that the local economy took a real nosedive and businesses closed, especially those related to the the tourist industry. Well, it's too bad that the local government people are so focused on what is coming in under the table either in hard cash or perks that they fail to see the longer range effects of what is happening.
In the US, any developer has to jump through innumerable hoops to get a project approved and the infrastructure is developed to provide at least some control on the wanton and willful destruction of land and property. I have not seem that same level of control and concern over the development in Mexico.
I just hope I run out of life before I run out of places.

Thought I'd bring it back...

Juan del Rio - 5-2-2006 at 08:14 PM

Anyone want to stir the LBC topic? Cruised through this Sunday...was trying to figure out(if I bought), were to drop off the bottle water, take out the trash, bring in the block ice for the Pacifico's/Tecate and find my way to the Playa. Anyone want ot see more photos? I'm open to the concept here, just can't see where I park the Baja Burb, or charge/park my electric car.
In Texas (sorry Skeet), they call this, "Big Hat/ No Cattle". Could be a new breed of cattle comin' in...
Juan

Ok, let me stir it a little more...

Juan del Rio - 5-2-2006 at 08:19 PM

Old(left) with the Burb and new(right) Range Rover. There is no one here. I think they should both(cars/development) apply for, "Day of the Dead" cameo appearance.

Anyone home???

Juan del Rio - 5-2-2006 at 08:21 PM

This place was dead...but it sure did look nice!

What about the playa???

Juan del Rio - 5-2-2006 at 08:28 PM

Yep, you can still get to the beach. I think its time to move on...There is a huge coastline in Baja that we all still love!

Oh...one last thing:

Juan del Rio - 5-2-2006 at 08:30 PM

They have a new Marina at the Condo's next door that you can buy in to as well.
Juan,
...over and out on this subject.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-3-2006 at 01:58 AM

Juan!
Thanks for the Photos! Keep them coming;
May I have permission to use the Photos in comparison to my Photos of years ago??
I am trying to write a Book comparing the Past of Loreto to the the Present

I have many Photos taken from 1968 to present.Just need to have them processed as they were not Digital

.Skeet/Loreto

Paula - 5-3-2006 at 06:09 AM

Quote:

Cruised through this Sunday...was trying to figure out(if I bought), were to drop off the bottle water, take out the trash, bring in the block ice for the Pacifico's/Tecate

Juan, I think the chupacabras do all of these mundane chores

wilderone - 5-3-2006 at 08:25 AM

Why, oh why, is the landscaping not consistent with what is native in Baja, CA , or at least draught resistant? That is ludicrous.

Cincodemayo - 5-3-2006 at 10:41 AM

Bouganvilla, palms, and such are very drought tolerant once established.

Juan del Rio - 5-3-2006 at 01:31 PM

Skeet, go ahead and use any of my photos!

comitan - 5-3-2006 at 03:09 PM

Cinco

You tell that to the 5 Coco's I've lost and4 fan palms, coco's take a lot of water, Bougainvillea need water at least a drip system and watered every day. Most of the area near the water have sandy soil and the water goes right through at least this all is from my experience.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-3-2006 at 06:10 PM

Comitan:
Virginia and I planted over 2 Hundred Coco Palms at Rancho Sonrisa; We never lost a plant!
They were bought at the Nursery in La Paz at about $4 each.The Key to planting a Coco is Dig the Hole, place Double Handle full of rock Salt in the bottom of the Hole, Set the coco plant on top and cover up and water!
We were producing CocoNuts in 6 years.
I had a Pila built with a drip system hooked to a pressure Tank.The results of our work can still be seen at the former Rancho Sonrisa , North of Loreto

Skeet/Loreto

"In God I Trust".

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