BajaNomad - Cultural differances, ain't they fun!

Cultural differances, ain't they fun!

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DENNIS - 12-2-2006 at 06:33 PM

It amazes me that the absence of venom, sylens word, and the interchange of friendly thought can be considered so unusual here.
Perhaps we should adopt the holiday spirit throughout the year.
It's not too early, I hope, so Merry Christmas everybody.

Diver - 12-2-2006 at 06:38 PM

Very good thoughts, Sylens.
I had been sitting back realizing all the similarities in those "differences" that were brought up by some.
Yes we are all so different but also so alike.

jerry - 12-2-2006 at 06:46 PM

their theives and murders in every cultures allways have been these are not the norm there are brillent people these are not the norm eather
just because one culture may be more articulate with words expressing them selves doesnt mean that another culture who isnt has different intentions
i think everything is learned and a lot of that is goverened by the teachers be it schooling , religion or family
why do the mexican people speak spanish?? spanish is an influence not native

DENNIS - 12-2-2006 at 07:09 PM

Actually jerry, Mexican people spoke Japanese until April 7th, 1762, when they discovered they had no word for Fish Taco so, they made a small adjustment in communication.

Sharksbaja - 12-2-2006 at 07:10 PM

And to be Mexican........is so Mexican!

Oso - 12-2-2006 at 07:25 PM

I'm not sure where anyone got that DNA percentage, but 96 to 99%, depending on methodology, is the shared DNA between humans and chimpanzees. Not really a surprising statistic in light of fairly recent elections in various parts of our small planet.

Paula - 12-2-2006 at 07:38 PM

How do different languages affect the general personality traits of different groups of people united by location and shared history? There are words and ideas that can be expressed in one lanuage or the other, but require very non-literal translations to equal the same thought. Does this fact affect behavior, or does behavior affect language?

Oso-----

Barry A. - 12-2-2006 at 07:49 PM

I assume that you are talking about the elections on Nov. 8???? Yes, I too was amazed, but the Monkeys came out in force that day, I guess, and set us all back a little. :lol:

Minnow - 12-2-2006 at 08:17 PM

Here we go again.

Comitan. Saludos

I was actually spell bound, for a minute, by purely intelectual thought.

My bad.

[Edited on 3-12-2006 by Minnow]

[Edited on 3-12-2006 by Minnow]

[Edited on 3-12-2006 by Minnow]

Iflyfish - 12-2-2006 at 08:50 PM

sylens,

I am glad you have weighed in.

You have said “i'm way over-generalizing, but it is my way of reconciling my sense that we are so tremendously similar (99.9???% shared dna) and yet indescribably unique. and yes, i think cultural similarities/differences fall in the same boat. looked at from some perspectives, it is amazing how all societies have developed cultures to deal with the same issues. but from another perspective, it is wondrous to enjoy the dramatically different way cultures have done this. and i'm using "cultures" in the broadest sense”

You are pointing at the dynamic I am looking at. Most people do not know that DNA is expressed via interaction with the environment. DNA exists as potential and is expressed as it interacts with the environment. Certain contexts and stimulation must occur for this expression to happen. DNA is also mutable and changes over time. Environmental influences change DNA. The giraffe modified it’s DNA over time to extend the neck in order to eat tender leaves that grow on the top of trees. The organism changes to adapt to it’s environment. It takes the monarch butterfly something like four generations to complete one cycle of it’s migration. That is how important DNA is to butterfly behavior.

The human brain appears to have gone through three distinct phases of development. The primitive or “reptilian” brain is shared with the reptiles. The neocortex developed later and allows for much more complex behavior. The frontal lobes developed later and are very involved in mediating behavior and in complex thinking related to cause and effect as well as forward thinking. The brain evolved over time through genetic mutation to adapt to its changing environment.

Jerry wrote in part “why do the mexican people speak spanish?? spanish is an influence not native” among many other things you have said. I want to acknowledge taking this statement out of context.

Farasha wrote in and exchange with longlegs “As the skin is renewed on an daily basis - and within 2 weeks we have a complete NEW skin - and still ol' habits!!
Maybe we (humans) should do the same? Changing by adjusting every so often, just keeping the important features (likes the wrinkles in a faces or moles) that make us distinctive, a personality. And sheding the flaws??”

I wonder if indeed this is what happens on a genetic, DNA, RNA level. The human organism, including the brain evolves over time.

There are those in this dialogue who have proposed that our behavior is all learned. Like a “tabla rosa” we appear as blank slates and then our culture is written on it. It is clear that this certainly happens. We learn languages and social customs and norms that are the substance of our cultures. We also have genetic material that modifies itself to meet the demands and context of our lives. We have an organ called an appendix that used to be used for digesting fiber. We no longer need it but it still sits there like an embarrassing dolt of a cousin at our elegant table. Our brain is still wired to react to stimuli like we still had sabor tooth tigers around. Most all of us have had the experience of our fight/flight system going into overdrive in an inappropriate context. Certain hormones if expressed in excess can over ride out judgment and we find ourselves waking up with people who we do not find attractive in the morning. I digress a bit, flood of testosterone.

To those who ascribe to the learning theory I would ask why is it that some people have a greater capacity for language than others? Why do some excel at mathematics while others flounder? Is it possible that entire races and cultures have evolved certain parts of their brains more than others. Is it possible that the more square shape of the Asian skull allows for more material in the frontal lobes? Is it possible that certain races/cultures have developed bigger gluteus maximus muscles in order to run and jump better? Is it possible that certain hummingbirds have developed beaks that are a perfect fit for one flower and that beak differs from their cousins?

Is it possible that human beings in northern climes did not need as much melanin in their skin to act as a natural sunscreen? Is it possible that human beings in more southern climes with greater sun exposure have retained more melanin in their skins to adapt to more sun than their cousins in northern climes?

Is it possible that some groups of human beings developed more complex language and frontal lobe structures to deal with different environmental challenges?

I was once asked if I could be reborn into any place and time that I had knowledge of and where and when would that be. I answered Polynesia in the eighteenth century. Great temperature, lots of fruit available for the picking, lots of fish readily available, la vida man! Easy life!, no need to ponder all this stuff!

Well, that’s enough for tonight. I have promised myself a good night sleep.

Ilfyfish when not engaged in useless thinking

jerry - 12-2-2006 at 11:05 PM

anything is possible.
if it found to be true by who??
by what measure??
is sciense itself flawed??
evolution ??probibly??
inviroment for sure
another few 100,000 years and im sure all these questions will answer them selves
me headed to baja in january and i hope nothing changes before i get there

fdt - 12-2-2006 at 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
It amazes me that the absence of venom, sylens word, and the interchange of friendly thought can be considered so unusual here.
Perhaps we should adopt the holiday spirit throughout the

Funny, isn't it, and if you notice, usual venom throwers are'nt posting here and we even have the big time people involved now. Congrats to us all!

And Big wow

fdt - 12-2-2006 at 11:20 PM

7 pages, 120 replies an almost 2000 views. hey Doug, I think there maybe sould exist a "Cultural Diferences area".
saludos

FARASHA - 12-3-2006 at 05:05 AM

HEY- THIS THREAD IS STILL GOING !!!!!!!!

I DID INDEED MEAN FRIENDS - not Acquaintances, and as it is, I'm not a native english speaker, I looked it up (for my correct spelling) and found much more on Acquaintance then I thought - look it up: http://www.reference.com/search?r=2&q=Acquaintance It gives a quite good Idea about all we are talking about too (beside spelling).
A nice sunday from over the pond!!

FARASHA - 12-3-2006 at 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish

Farasha wrote in and exchange with longlegs “As the skin is renewed on an daily basis - and within 2 weeks we have a complete NEW skin - and still ol' habits!!
Maybe we (humans) should do the same? Changing by adjusting every so often, just keeping the important features (likes the wrinkles in a faces or moles) that make us distinctive, a personality. And sheding the flaws??”

I wonder if indeed this is what happens on a genetic, DNA, RNA level. The human organism, including the brain evolves over time.

Is it possible that human beings in northern climes did not need as much melanin in their skin to act as a natural sunscreen? Is it possible that human beings in more southern climes with greater sun exposure have retained more melanin in their skins to adapt to more sun than their cousins in northern climes?

Ilfyfish when not engaged in useless thinking

I think that we are still evolving, that will never stop. And refering to the skin - we have had a darker skin in the past, we lost the melanin in our skin, due to adaption to cooler/darker environment, with those tribes who wandered north. And those who develope skincancer are usually those with skintyp I and II.
So we adapt continuously, for the good and for the bad (unfortunatly).
What does have also a GREAT influence is what happens also during fetal status, and birth, and nutrition during th whole time until we grow up - more or less Oxygen,Protein, Vitamins - IS influencing the developement of the brain - which has an influence on differing intellectual developement. Plus the social surrounding that is more or less supportive by stimmulating a childs developemnt of brain and skills.
AND STILL I find siblings are some times sooooo DIFFERENT as one can not imagine - maybe a precaution from nature to avoid inbreeding??
I see it as a VERY COMPLEX thing why we differ in some ways, and in other ways are the same.
Fact is - we incline to look for different Genetic material for reproduction, and I think that is why we are also drawn to differing cultures etc....As the Variety/Diversity will keep us alive as Human Species!??

WHATEVER the Reasons, I ENJOY IT A LOT - the Diversity as much as Common Grounds!

[Edited on 3-12-2006 by FARASHA]

Believe it or not....

Lee - 12-3-2006 at 09:32 AM

"In some parts of Spanish America, esp. the Andean countries (Equador, Peru, Bolivia), people who are open, frank, direct are considered rude and blunt.... in some places, in order to be kind to you, people will tell you what they think you want to hear...

The Hispanic Way
(Aspects of Behavior, Attitudes and Customs in the Spanish Speaking World)
Judith Noble / Jaime Lacasa
NTC/Contemporary Pub. Co. 1991

:cool:

longlegsinlapaz - 12-3-2006 at 10:41 AM

A prime example of cultural diversity, thought processes & appreciation….or lack thereof:

Setting the scene:

Place: El Centenario
Time: 9:00 PM, Saturday night

The unnecessarily amplified Mariachi band sets up with much testing of the sound system, resulting in squawks & high pitched screeching that put the resident hens & roosters to shame, while most likely doing irreparable damage to egg production for the foreseeable future!

They seriously blast into full swing around 9:30 PM; the bass setting cranked to a ground-shaking level that could have made one believe that they were in Asuncion! Throughout the casa, heavy iron doors & window frames began a steady vibration, rising & falling dramatically along with the heavy beat of the music….the entire structure mimicking a tuning fork! Dogs joined in the ear-splitting competition! Plaintive cries (shrieking) of young Mexican maidens added to the raw sounds pulsing out into the night!

The single gringa in the rental casa on the adjoining property: cursing the inventor of amplifiers, Thomas Alva Edison, Ben Franklin, CFE, whatever Mariachi group first decided that amplification was necessary, let alone would somehow add to the quality of their performance; along with whoever sold it to them! She found herself wondering how much the owner of the adjoining property was paying the Mariachi group to perform; ergo how much it might cost her to pay them to pack up their electronic equipment & call it a night! She was praying for a power failure, rain, hurricane, tsunami, drug raid, swarm of locust; ANYTHING that would leave a deafening silence in its wake! By 10 PM she was gritting her teeth; then came 11 PM….12 PM….1 AM (I won’t attempt to describe her progressively deteriorating mental state!) Suffice it to say that she gave up any attempt of sleep around 1:30 AM! She got up & let her dogs out to join in the festivities & attempted to ignore the vibrations reverberating through her concrete casa enough to concentrate to play a computer word game. She experienced great joy as the decibel level of the neighborhood dropped considerably around 2:15 AM, the pleasant sound of cars pealing off down the dusty road & out onto the highway became the new music to her ears! Eventually, somewhere around 4:30 AM sleep finally came! This was her around 8 AM >>>>

The several hundred Mexican residents within a mile: Most likely simply appreciated the free music! :yes:

FARASHA - 12-3-2006 at 10:53 AM

LEE , yeah, also in other places like Bedoins in Sinai, or in Asia.They would not be open to you unless you really become a CLOSE friend and part of family.

[Edited on 3-12-2006 by FARASHA]

Minnow - 12-3-2006 at 10:53 AM

Here's another example/ what are the chances of this happening in the states.

Nov. 20, dia de revolucion, is celebrated all over Mexico with parades. In Maneadero there is only 1 paved road, which happens to be the main highway, MX 1. For three hours in the mourning of Nov. 20 the highway was closed to have their parade. Hundreds of children, bands, beauty queens, and the like, had their chance to be the center of attention. Mean while, hundreds of cars, trucks, motorhomes, were forced to try and work their way around the festivities, or wait it out. I found myself in the middle of it when I went to town to buy propane. So what do my wife and I do. Sit and watch the parade, of course. Here is a quote from her. "if the mountain won't come to you, you need to go to the mountain". Cosas de la Vida. :lol:

Great story longlegs! I hope you get some sleep soon.

[Edited on 3-12-2006 by Minnow]

tmpphpupB6P3.jpg - 45kB

Iflyfish - 12-3-2006 at 11:25 AM

Great stories, this is the stuff of the differences. Love to read these anecdotes!

I'll bet those native Mexicans who have visited the USofA have some funny stories too. These stories reflect the culture of the writers. To a native Mexican they would be so syntonic they might not be worth repeating. Culture is like a bone in our nose, others are odd not having them.

I once stayed in the Obrero, a Basque hotel in the middle of China Town in San Francisco. I opened the front door early in the morning and was hit by a wall of Chinese language and culture. I hunkered in a doorway for a while to acclimate myself to the scene. I recall watching these Chinese women sorting through vegetables like they were gold panning. I watched as they picked up each piece of fruit or vegetable and turn it repeatedly in their hands. Examining, squeezing, smelling, and puncturing with their fingernails. After discarding a dozen oranges, one or two made the cut. Then they progressed to the onions and quinces.

I think that I am so used to having the brightest, biggest, shiniest vegetables available in abundance with the vegetable guy at the store throwing away anything that is in the least way blemished. So this ritual fascinated me. I then discovered that often-unwitting store clerks would give away persimmons that are soft. They of course are best eaten soft. I have scored a lot of them by asking “are you going to sell these?”

Iflyfishwhennotpeoplewatching

FARASHA - 12-3-2006 at 11:38 AM

I agree with FLYFISHING Nomad - are there Mexicans on this board who would throw in their stories, with what they had exprienced with Gringos/Gringas?

Lee - 12-3-2006 at 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FARASHA
I agree with FLYFISHING Nomad - are there Mexicans on this board who would throw in their stories, with what they had exprienced with Gringos/Gringas?

A related story I can tell for a Mex friend in Denver:

we were at a business workshop over a weekend, and somewhere there was an air conditioning problem, and through the weekend, he was questioned whether he was the air conditioning repair man, or not. Eventually, he did get pi**ed off about it. I think it was, partly, because he was dark skinned and the white folks (it was white folks asking) just thought the repairman would not be white. Strange but true.

Now, in Baja, I don't think the reverse is true, but might be on some level.

:cool:

Iflyfish - 12-3-2006 at 02:02 PM

Lee

Good one

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 12-3-2006 at 02:06 PM

Great Dead Fish Pic Minnow.

I must have missed that one. Jealousy is an ugly thing in any culture! I just have a hard time hiding mine when I see pics like that.

Iflyfishwhennotlustingafterotherpeoplesfish

fdt - 12-3-2006 at 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FARASHA
I agree with FLYFISHING Nomad - are there Mexicans on this board who would throw in their stories, with what they had exprienced with Gringos/Gringas?

You asking and longlegs inspiring me I remember that for my 16th birthday, living in La Paz we(my friends and I) organized a party were I lived, The Hosteria del Convento, my girlfriend at the time was the daughter of a coronel in the army and she got me the military band to play at the party. Well when I told Javier, who was sort of like the manager of el Convento about the music that would be playing, he just said NO, because of the other guests, so here I am all sad and all when that afternoon Hanssie arrived back from San Francisco (remember, the american lady that taught english in La Paz? "English with Anita") and I visited her and she said she was very tired from her trip but after I told her the situation, she just looked at me and said to just forget about Javier and have the party in her place. Very few people will do this, she lived in a 2 bedroom unit, or I guess you could call it livingroom and bedroom, she taught English in the living room area that had desks, chairs and so on, and her room was the back one. Well anyway, the band set up in her bedroom and the party was in the living room, I don't know how she did it, but she slept right next to the band. Wow what a gal she was, love you Hanssie.

fdt - 12-3-2006 at 02:17 PM

Simone my wife is one of those that gets upset if there is a party late at night, instead of looking at it as a serenata, oh well that's cultural, or not

Cypress - 12-3-2006 at 02:22 PM

fdt! Good story!

FARASHA - 12-3-2006 at 02:42 PM

fdt - what a party - can imagine her sleeping next to the band :lol:

- travelling can be a killer - really a good story.
Also the one from longleg, I feel with that poor gringa - I'm sensitive to noise myself (ie my neighbor'sTV) . But if it is a cultural event - HEY lets have it!

fdt - 12-3-2006 at 02:55 PM

Anita Walker was a special kind of gringa :yes:

FARASHA - 12-3-2006 at 02:59 PM

I remember about a thread were she was mentioned, some month ago.

Lee - 12-3-2006 at 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
A prime example of cultural diversity, thought processes & appreciation….or lack thereof:

The several hundred Mexican residents within a mile: Most likely simply appreciated the free music! :yes:

Great story, LL.

I think everyone has a similar story, eventually.

I think it's different when you have the option of being a celebrant. Otherwise, it's someone else's party, and you have to wait until they stop. Free music after mid-night for those within a mile of the party, who weren't invited, probably counted the hours until it stopped as well.

Ya think?

:cool:

DianaT - 12-3-2006 at 07:40 PM

As said before, it is so nice to read a thread where civility rules. :yes:

While it was not Mexico, it was a Latin American Culture. We were living and teaching in Honduras. Invited to a student's birthday party, we arrived an appropriate 1/2 hour late only to find the entire family still in their pajamas. It was an awkward 1 1/2 hour wait before the other guests arrived.

When my high school seniors were preparing their graduation invitations, they stated a starting time 1 1/2 hours earlier than planned. The owner of the little bilingual school operated on their punctual Minnesotan time schedule, and the parents were on Hondruan time. Some parents were still late.

But from our living and travel experiences, we have found one unfortunate cultural equalizer ---this picture was taken in Batopilas, at the bottom of Cooper Canyon in Mexico. There are not a lot of supplies available there, but this open aired shop was well stocked.

Plastic, Coca Cola, and disposable diapers have taken over the earth

Diane

[Edited on 12-4-2006 by jdtrotter]

[Edited on 12-4-2006 by jdtrotter]

Iflyfish - 12-3-2006 at 08:16 PM

jdtrotter,

I recall when people carried goods in rebosos or multicolored seisel bags. I was told that each village had it's own distinctive reboso. I remember clearly the year that plastic bags were introduced into Mexico and now they are to be found everywhere including the roadsides. I wish they were produced in such a way that they would decay!

Not all cultural change is for the better. I recall the markets of the Tarahumara in the Copper Canyon full of raku fired terra cotta pots with wonderful designs and green woven reed baskets. I still have some of both that I treasure with the memories. I also recall what to me was the music of Mexico, the hands slapping together to produce hand made tortillas. What a treat those were. Mmmmmm good!

I recall the advent of television. I saw my first in a Chrysler Dealership in our small town in North Dakota. I recall looking through the window and discussing with my brother how stupid that was, "who would waste their time watching that thing. I recall seeing early TVs in village squares hung on a tree for all to watch. Television has changed the culture of the USofA irrevocably. Few families sit down to eat together at a table where they discuss the events of the day. Families often sit side by side in front of the glowing tube and so are only engaged in parallel activity. In my life time we have moved from a linier to acoustic age. It is wonderful to be engaged in a context where people are writing back and forth (linear) with each other and exchanging ideas, images and feelings using this acoustic format. In the USofA we are surrounded and bombarded with images that come at us faster and faster. They tell us how to be, smell, think, and feel. I wonder how this will affect our neurology over time. It may already be affecting attention spans.

I think it is the province of the aged to regret change. The young often embrace it while the old resist it. The Latin phrase goes "Sic Transit Gloria Mundie" translated roughly into "Thus Passes the Glory of The World"

In a world where the only constant is change, it is adaptive to embrace it or in the effort of fighting it become cynical, remorseful and angry.

Seize the Carp!
Or Carpe Carpum as OSO so eloquently puts it.

Iflyfishforcarpemdia

Lee - 12-3-2006 at 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fdt
Well anyway, the band set up in her bedroom and the party was in the living room, I don't know how she did it, but she slept right next to the band. Wow what a gal she was, love you Hanssie.

I love this story. Thanks for printing it.

Sounds like people I grew up with. Not the Ozzie&Harriet/FatherKnowsBest stuff I watched on TV, but REAL.

:cool:

Paula - 12-3-2006 at 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee

Quote:

Here's another difference-- if you can hear the music you are invited to the party! Just walk in and smile, and you'll pretty much for sure be welcome. We tested this out Friday night when we were surprised to hear live music coming from next door. Now fortunately we like banda music, and 2 trombones, 3trumpets, one tuba and the cutest little french horn I ever did see-- all pulled together by the rythm of 3 different kinds of drumset-- is music to our ears. We stayed for half a dozen songs, as the music started at 10 pm, and we just hadn't planned ahead to party all night. Tonight it's recorded norteno so far. I don't know where these guys came from, never heard a sound from that place before, and my guess is they won't stay all that long.
Life in Mexico, where to hope and to wait are both expressed by the same word... :bounce:

and the sky and heaven are both el cielo :saint:

DianaT - 12-3-2006 at 09:53 PM

Quote:

Here's another difference-- if you can hear the music you are invited to the party! Just walk in and smile, and you'll pretty much for sure be welcome.

We recently taught school and lived in Calexico for five wonderful years. The majority of our neighbors were from Mexicali. Many owned businesses there and lived in Calexico.

It was a typical cheap---well nothing in California is that cheap--tract with the garage in the front. Unlike other areas of California, in the evening, many of our neighbors sat outside in the front yard, socializing with the community like around a plaza in a typical Mexican town---very unlike the typical gringo sitting on the patio in the backyard, isolated from the community. And when it was fiesta time, a childs birthday, an anniversary, or maybe just a Friday evening, it happened in the garage in the front yard, and yes, all the neighbors were invited, even if we didn't speak much Spanish.

But when it came time to move and our neighbor wanted to buy our house, she was quick to make sure that we understood that she wanted to do business in the gringo way---everything stated firmly, clearly, and finished quickly. This was all communicated through her bilingual daughter as she spoke little English and our Spainish is very weak.

It was an interesting place to live-and work. --sometimes a place caught between two cultures, or maybe a place of a unique border culture. There were lots of positives, and some negatives. As one graduating student shared her fears with me, she felt caught between two languages, neither of which she knew well. It was not uncommon in the classroom to hear, "Donde esta the stapler"?

Diane

Iflyfish - 12-4-2006 at 10:29 AM

jdtrotter,

I can almost smell the bbq. Of course the zocolo used to be the focal point in villages. I used to really enjoy the passeo in the evenings.

In the UsofA there is the mall.

Iflyfish

Cypress - 12-4-2006 at 10:38 AM

If you can hear the music, you're invited to the party! :tumble:

My kinda people. :spingrin:

Cincodemayo - 12-4-2006 at 06:54 PM

Dang...Great stories people!
Back in 1980 from San Clemente a good friend's Dad bought a big GMC Eleganza moto home and took 3 weeks..One week down Baja, one week in Cabo and one week driving back..While staying in Mulege we went scuba diving and got invited to a locals house in the palm groves to a fantastic dinner and had the best time while stayijng at the moto part of the Serenidad...One of many stories in Mexico that are all good.

Just to show different cultures around the world the first time I went to Bali by myself I hired a driver for a 4 day jaunt around the magical Island. The first night he hooked me up with this beautiful Balinese gal who he was friends with and went with for another day. The next day we were driving up thru Bali and he asked me if I wanted to do something tourists never get to do. I asked what and he said the Island c-ckfight in the middle of the jungle. Well after a few Bintangs I said sure and it was amazing. I was the only white guy amung 300-400 Balinese in the middle of the Bali Jungle with the biggest lightning and thunder show with a 45 minute deluge during the festivities! It was not for me to judge what they have been doing for hundreds of years so the experience was unbelieveable that will be engrained with me forever. My guide being Hindu had 2 families and he was proud to introduce me to both with great Balinese food at each residence. The experience surely opened me up to other cultures and what they are all about. The Balinese like the Mexican people are awesome and not to be judged. I've traveled the world and the only people I've scorned at are Germans in Tunisia and "UGLY" Americanos.

[Edited on 12-5-2006 by Cincodemayo]

Iflyfish - 12-4-2006 at 09:05 PM

Cincodemayo,

I was fortunate enough to be in Queretaro during the Christmas season. We went to the Palenque and after the matches were over they covered the floor with plywood and out comes Vincente Fernandez and his band. They sung and played till the wee hours. Amazing!!! There is so much magic in Mexico........... and on it goes.

I kept betting on white roosters, never won.....not once!

Moral.............. don't bet on the white chickens.

I never saw roosters so well maintained, oiled and pampered, mouth to mouth resuscitation, water spewed at the nether regions, such pleading urging and encouragement, such admiration and love........ till the end........ then it's all over for the bird............. and taco time.

Now talk about cultural differences!!!

Iflyfishwithfeathersfromthechicken

DENNIS - 12-4-2006 at 09:47 PM

Oh yeah.... c-ckfights.
They may just be chickens but it's ugly. A thirty minute ritual....twenty nine minutes of betting and one minute of combat. One goes home a winner....the other is stripped of his spurs and thrown out the back of the tent into a pile of losers. You probably wont see the Dalai Lama at one of these events.

Hey, Dennis!

Dave - 12-4-2006 at 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Oh yeah.... c-ckfights.
They may just be chickens but it's ugly. A thirty minute ritual....twenty nine minutes of betting and one minute of combat. One goes home a winner....the other is stripped of his spurs and thrown out the back of the tent into a pile of losers. You probably wont see the Dalai Lama at one of these events.

Maybe it's just me but I think your mood is changing.

Lee - 12-4-2006 at 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

Maybe it's just me but I think your mood is changing.

c-ckfights are ugly. The Bali experience might have been the entire experience -- jungle, cab ride, middle of no-where, with Balinese out the gazoo.

Fighting to the death whether it's chickens or the bull ring rubs me the wrong way too. It's a backward custom. I don't have to like it.

How about a dog fight to the death? Or a cat fight? Or Llamas? Bring back the gladiators.

:cool:

DENNIS - 12-4-2006 at 10:56 PM

Dog fights? People involved in this should be tortured and put to death, then prosecuted in a court of law with nothing but a public defender.

Iflyfish - 12-4-2006 at 11:01 PM

Dennis,

I probably have seen a Dalai Lama there, who didn't make it this time around, and simply didn't recognize him. I will look closer next time. I have also read that if one sees the beatific vision in an ashtray that one aught to keep it to oneself. I also saw a whole pile of pollo tacos to be in the natch.

Now this is another real cultural difference. c-ckfights are a very traditional part of Mexican culture and go back a long way. Anyone willing to share the history of c-ckfights and what role they play in Mexican culture? That would be interesting learn more about. Norte Americanos tend to view c-ckfighting as brutal and insensitive and those who attend as barbaric.

I also had the extraordinary good luck of seeing Cordobas, one of histories greatest matadors fight in the bullring in T.J. That was my first Bull Fight and I happened to start at the top. After seeing this fight, I started to appreciate ballet. Cordobas looked like Baryshnikov in drag. The Bull Fight is a drama, sort of a tragic opera, in which the female power of the matador overcoming the male power of the bull. The matador is dressed as a woman who seduces and overcomes the male power as played by the bull. Fascinating when viewed from this perspective. High drama it is! Norte Americanos tend to see bullfights in the same light as they view c-ckfights.

This again is another cultural difference. In the USofA the game of football may have some of the same dynamics as bullfighting with a guy bent over passing a ball to the man covering him who then hurls it into the waiting arms of another man. It would be interesting to hear how a native Mexican views this game.

Iflyfishwhennotviolatingculturalnorms

DENNIS - 12-4-2006 at 11:13 PM

Japanese used to wrap their women,s feet to deform them to resemble baseballs, ostensibly to keep them from running away. Other cultures scar and mutilate their children to make them more beautiful. Do I have to think these actions are righteous just because they are performed in a different culture? Do I try to understand their motives or do I try to understand my revulsion?

DENNIS - 12-4-2006 at 11:19 PM

IFF -----
By the way, on your question of how native Mexicans would view our game of football, they would probably view it as lame compared to their rendition of basketball 600 years ago when a hard rubber ball was projected through a vertical hoop on a wall and the losers of the event were put to death.

Bring back the old rules!

Dave - 12-4-2006 at 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
IFF -----
By the way, on your question of how native Mexicans would view our game of football, they would probably view it as lame compared to their rendition of basketball 600 years ago when a hard rubber ball was projected through a vertical hoop on a wall and the losers of the event were put to death.

And Shaq might never miss another free throw.

The Dalai Lama, c-ckfights and sissy bullfighters. This thread has finally livened up. What took you guys so long?

[Edited on 12-5-2006 by Dave]

DENNIS - 12-4-2006 at 11:50 PM

Jeezo, you're right. This place is really starting to cook. I'm going to turn in before the subject turns to blow-up dolls.

Hasta Mañana

Lee - 12-5-2006 at 08:14 AM

Quote:

Yeah, the losing team considered it an honor to be put to death. Chac Mol at Kukucan Temple. http://www.nikonians-images.com/galleries/showphoto.php?phot... This was where they ripped still beating hearts out of someone's chest.

Bring back the real games. Let's face it. Mexicans like blood sports and Nortenos have a problem with death.

On top of life being cheap in Mexico. Was it reallly 600 years ago? Seems like yesterday.

:cool:

DENNIS - 12-5-2006 at 09:01 AM

South-Central Mexico.........600 years.
South-Central Los Angeles........... Yesterday.

Cincodemayo - 12-5-2006 at 10:18 AM

Come on now...I never said I agreed with it I was in THEIR country. I totally DISagree with cruelty like that but Putu said the loser is Chicken soup, not thrown into a loser pile. Heck the Phillipinos have been having clucker fights for centuries. Just like stated above at Chitzen Itza the winners of the game were sacrificed....

This whole thread was about cultural differences and my post was just about that. I was relating MY experiences with a major cultural difference not agreeing with it just the energy there was worth remembering with all the factors involved. I was at a bullfight the early 70's and we were rooting for the bull in TJ....it sucked. Wished the TORO would have sent the macho a-hole 15 feet in the air.

[Edited on 12-5-2006 by Cincodemayo]

Iflyfish - 12-5-2006 at 12:08 PM

Cincodemayo,

I did see the matador thrown in the air in a terrible fight in Ensenada and have seen the matadors booed and cushions thrown at them and the bulls cheered.

Dennis,

You raise some interesting ideas. Foot binding is still done in the USofA. Have you been to Nordstrom’s Women’s shoe department lately? You don’t have to answer that. One could do a doctorial thesis; maybe someone has already, on the topic of how various cultures, including ours, shape women to the norms of various cultures. This often involves PAIN. How about putting holes in the ears? Have you seen that silicone can now be used again for “breast augmentation”?

As to cruelty to human beings the Mexicans love Soccer with a passion. Now compare Soccer with Football. Can one really compare the brutality of these two sports? They are not even on the same menu. I have met many, many men with permanent injuries suffered in high school football. How many men have you met who have blown out knees from this activity. We go to American football games and cheer as men are blocked, tackled and thrown in the air. We cheer them as they are carried off the field on stretchers and think nothing of it. We think nothing of it because the cruelty is part of our culture. It is like our skin, we simply accept it. We participate in a group ritual that involves human injury. I am not saying that this is good or bad, just pointing out a bone in our nose.

Most cultures have some sort of aggressive activity that is engaged in to sublimate and channel the aggression of the masses. I believe there is an important role that these group activities serve to channel the collective aggression of human beings. Why most cultures seem to evolve events like this? I propose that they serve a very important function. Have you seen the cage fighting that now is one of the USofA’s most popular sports? Ever watch one? Why do so many find this fascinating? Why is it becoming so popular?

Animals, including chickens and dogs have fought to the death before mankind ever domesticated them. Have you ever watched a wolf pack? How about a lion pride? We share genes with these animals. Most of our genes in fact are held in common with these animals. Human beings are genocidal. Seen the news from Darfur today? What has happened in Iraq as the existing ruler was deposed by an invasion?

I appreciate the posts here. These are not easy topics to discuss in a civil fashion. We have powerful feelings about the “rightness” of our culture. Most human beings are ethnocentric, that is believe that their culture is the center of it all. It is with great difficulty that we address the bone in our nose. It is there for a reason and very hard to see, let alone dislodge. It takes courage to look clearly at these things.

Iflyfishwhennotpullingbonesoutofnoses

Cypress - 12-5-2006 at 12:19 PM

Had a buddy arrested for "dog fighting". Ragged him about it. He said " Jeez! I was only selling the refreshments." :no:

DENNIS - 12-5-2006 at 03:12 PM

IFF ---
All good points. Sometimes it can be disgusting to try and figure it out. The ultimate fighting which you pointed out is, along with dog fighting, a low point in our cultural evolution. Spectators get off vicariously on the cruelty of the event. Sad as well is the fact that boxing is an olympic sport.
I dont see these events as characteristics of a healthy culture. I see them as abhorrant behavior, not widely popular in our culture.
God, I dont know. It all seems to be a different rendition of war. There are even people who enjoy that.

DENNIS - 12-5-2006 at 03:21 PM

I think I'm going to occupy my time studying the Debutant Ball and Quinceañera [sp?] as a cultural evolution of puberty rites.

toneart - 12-5-2006 at 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
IFF ---
All good points. Sometimes it can be disgusting to try and figure it out. The ultimate fighting which you pointed out is, along with dog fighting, a low point in our cultural evolution. Spectators get off vicariously on the cruelty of the event. Sad as well is the fact that boxing is an olympic sport.
I dont see these events as characteristics of a healthy culture. I see them as abhorrant behavior, not widely popular in our culture.
God, I dont know. It all seems to be a different rendition of war. There are even people who enjoy that.

I hate the idea of dog fighting. There is a thriving group in Mulege who fight pit-bulls. I have heard stories of gringos complaining and were told to butt out. The inference was; messing with the wrong people (sanctioned by some prominent locals) could get you hurt. On occassion, I have seen guys walking down the south river road with a fighting pit-bull. They do keep them under tight leash control and even walk way to the side of the road and crouch down with them when they see me coming with my dog. They even turn the dog around and block their line of vision with their bodies. I appreciate that but it really makes me nervous. I always grab my dog when I see them coming, and if he is loose I immediately put him back on his leash. If not, my dog would hum "do de do de do" and run up to the pit-bull and want to play.

Here's a challenge to anybody: My dog can lick your dog....literally!

Regarding boxing, that is a sport that Mexico may even be more into than us, but the big money is in the U.S.

Regarding war: It is not politically correct for anyone to admit they like war, but I bet there are some in the Pentagon and in Washington who are really getting off. Unfortunately, they have discovered that it'll come back ta bite cha! Can you say Quagmire? I don't see the Mexican Nationals being exuberant about war. I think their military and the country would suffer greatly if they were called into a political battle. But they had better start mobilizing to qwell the cartel violence or they will lose the tourist industry.

DanO - 12-5-2006 at 04:04 PM

One man's blood sport is another's ballet. I was fortunate enough to see my first bullfight in the corrida in Madrid, Spain. It featured one of the top matadors in the country, who was gored halfway through the match. IFF is right, it was an incredible spectacle, a layered and sophisticated living art form, on all levels -- the fight, the crowd, the costumes, you name it.

I'm no fan of ultimate fighting, but I have met and spoken to one of the fighters, a member of the famous Gracie family, who was best man at my brother's wedding. You will not meet a more thoughtful and gracious individual. His angle on the sport comes from generations of his family's development of Gracie jiu jitsu, which he and his brothers teach to kids and adults as a form of physical discipline and culture, as well as a martial art. I've got tremendous respect for those guys. That said, there's lots of money involved in their sport. The combination of money and physical violence makes for a popular pastime. Can anyone say, boxing?

Lee - 12-5-2006 at 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
I appreciate the posts here. These are not easy topics to discuss in a civil fashion. We have powerful feelings about the “rightness” of our culture. Most human beings are ethnocentric, that is believe that their culture is the center of it all. It is with great difficulty that we address the bone in our nose. It is there for a reason and very hard to see, let alone dislodge. It takes courage to look clearly at these things.

Iflyfishwhennotpullingbonesoutofnoses

You've raised too many points to debate all of them so I'll take your last paragraph.

Some here are not arguing (discourse) the rightness of our culture. So, Mexico has bull fights, and Nortenos have cage fighting. I don't really see the difference between the two. Both ''sports'' are ignorant and backwards, unenlightened and pointless.

You can dress bullfighting, or cage fighting, any way you want with customs, dress, history, and the rest. It still comes down to a level of darkness that is valued by some people as good. For bullfighting, I think there is a large part of the audience (how large I'm not debating) that show up because they like blood.

Cage fighting looks like the same to me. The crowd pays to see the sh*t kicked out of the other guy. Blood and guts. The more brutal the better. If cage fighting could be taken to a level where it was OK to fight to the death, the auditorium would be packed. What a sad sad culture this is.

I draw the line with blood and death. Because it's been done for centuries doesn't make it right. Rome had the Colisium. Was any of that right? Doubt it.

As for healthy debate, that's fine too. Let's be real though. Any ''sport'' that ends in the death of an animal is not a sport.

How about a matedor with a gun, instead?

:cool:

Iflyfish - 12-5-2006 at 05:24 PM

Is it possible that these sports fulfill a human need? Do they serve as a substitutes for war? Are they a "safe" place to channel our collective aggression? If not then why do they spring up in nearly every culture?

And speaking of brutality in the USofA, thanks for asking about my circumcision scar, it is healing nicely after sixty some years, lost some sensation, but all in all doing fine thank you.

Iflyfishwhennotcontemplatingmywounds

Iflyfish - 12-5-2006 at 05:40 PM

Lee,

I appreciate your perspective and in some ways share some of your attitudes. We all are however all a product of our culture. We view the world through the bone in our nose. That makes it hard to be clear sometimes. It also feels better to take the “moral high ground” and denounce bullfighting, c-ckfighting, football, boxing, and other blood sports. I personally consider skiing a blood sport as I inevitably have hurt myself doing it.

My point is that these activities must serve some real human need as like religion, they keep emerging in nearly every culture.

Is it possible that humans are BY NATURE genocidal. I could cite examples throughout history to support this hypothesis. It goes on and on in the history of humankind. I am not advocating genocide, though I might make an exception for aggressive drivers when I become King. I am pointing out that it exists throughout history. We participate in it. They gave Geronimo a Cadillac to calm our own guilt. Adios Indios, we need to fulfill our Manifest Destiny. How many Mexican cultures are dying as we speak? Mexico has had fifty-six distinct language groups, second only to India with fifty-nine. Where are they now?

If this is true, that human are genocidal, then we might thank our lucky stars that there are “legitimate” contexts for the acting out of this aggression. It might even be dangerous to do away with this sort of activity.

I appreciate those who are taking the time to add to this very important and I hope interesting dialogue.

Iflyfish

DENNIS - 12-5-2006 at 05:46 PM

I'm not sure what "collective agression" is. I cant help but feel that mans agressive nature is as unique and personal as his need for acceptance and nurturing.
I also have trouble considering "agression" as a normal psychological function such as "fight or flight", especially the agression related to blood sports.
Speaking of blood IFF, if your circumcision is still oozing after all these years, you may want to take what's left of everything to a Jewish doctor. They know all about these things.

Iflyfish - 12-5-2006 at 06:13 PM

DanO,

Exactly, the sole purpose of boxing is to produce brain damage. Knocking someone out creates a hemorrhage in the brain. That is why people fall down. Getting knocked out is the product of brain trauma. Ditto for "getting your lights put out,” "your bell chimed" and all the other euphemisms used in sports to describe this phenomenon.

Slapstick humor is often based on someone falling, being hit with a falling object etc. We laugh at it, but if you examine it closely it is the appreciation of SOMEONE ELSE experiencing pain.

Why do we slow down at a car wreck?

I had the privilege of spending some time with Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, M.D. She wrote some of the seminal work on Death and Dying. She grew up in Switzerland, close to the German border. She visited Auschwitz and saw the atrocities perpetrated on the Jews at the concentration camps. She was aghast, horrified by what she saw. This experience stirred in her a life long passion for helping people who were facing death. She said to me “we all have a Hitler in us,” “it is important that we all acknowledge that there is a killer in each one of us”, “the issue is how we want to deal with that Hitler.” What she meant was that we all have the capacity to kill. It is in all of us. If we deny this in ourselves then it comes out in some very terrible ways. I have read estimates that up to six hundred thousand innocent people, men, women, and children have died in Iraq. We justify this death and destruction in the name of taking care of “evil doers”, “spreading democracy” and slogans like this. This is exactly the behavior Kubler-Ross was talking about. Is this war and example of the collective aggression of the USofA manifest on the world stage. All cultures justify their aggressive acts with slogans of self-righteousness. God seems to be on all sides at once.

I am not wanting to discuss politics, nor to support this discussion deteriorating into a debate about Iraq. That is not the purpose of this post. The purpose of this post is to acknowledge that we share the “blood thirsty” traits of those we condemn who watch bullfights, c-ckfights, boxing matches, football games. I just think it is important to “own” these traits in ourselves. We are less likely if we do own these traits to try to “stomp out” those behaviors or traits in others. In the act of “stomping out” the behaviors of others, we often show our own naked aggression.

Iflyfishwhennotnursingmywounds

Iflyfish - 12-5-2006 at 06:17 PM

Dennis,

Great idea on the doc. Maybe she will know what to do with it.

By the way, where do I find the Debutant Ball and Quinceañera, now that sounds like my style.

Ilfyfish

DanO - 12-5-2006 at 06:34 PM

IFF, I'd steer clear of the underage girls if I were you. Especially with that little problem of yours Dennis referred to.

Lee - 12-5-2006 at 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
Elizabeth Kubler-Ross, M.D. She wrote some of the seminal work on Death and Dying. She grew up in Switzerland, close to the German border. She visited Auschwitz and saw the atrocities perpetrated on the Jews at the concentration camps. She was aghast, horrified by what she saw. This experience stirred in her a life long passion for helping people who were facing death. She said to me “we all have a Hitler in us,” “it is important that we all acknowledge that there is a killer in each one of us”, “the issue is how we want to deal with that Hitler.”

Iflyfishwhennotnursingmywounds

As much as I respect the opinions of Kubler-Ross, I think she's wrong in the above. I think we have the ''potential'' for having a Hitler in us, but we do not have Hitler in us.

We all have a light and dark side to us. Those focusing on the dark side attract more darkness.

There are cultures who haven't ''gotten it'' yet, and that's what I speak to.

I'm reducing it to the ridiculous: we can make the world a better place. It's a choice.

The unenlightened to not know they have a choice.

I'm convinced that there are people who are seduced by darkness, and even think it's cool.

:cool:

DENNIS - 12-5-2006 at 06:37 PM

Wow. You want to read about aggression?
Lencho up there has a quote from a Cormac McCarthy book, "All The Pretty Horses".
McCarthy wrote another heavy seller called "Blood Meridian".
I'm not suggesting this book as anybodys Christmas present. I had a hard time reading it. It takes cruel aggression to new levels, high or low, take your pick.
Oh well, I couldn't finish "Call Of The Wild" because of the cruelty involved.

IFF ... I agree, this is a good thread, healthy discourse. I enjoy philisophical conversations. All questions---------no answers.

Iflyfish - 12-5-2006 at 06:39 PM

Dennis wrote
"I'm not sure what "collective agression" is. I cant help but feel that mans agressive nature is as unique and personal as his need for acceptance and nurturing.”

Are you saying that you don't think that each of us has all emotions and all of the potentials for human behavior? I would agree that there are some individuals who through constitution have limited capacity for certain human emotions and behaviors i.e. people who suffer from Autism certainly experience the world in a different way than most of us. I however believe that aside from the exceptions like that mentioned above that we all experience the full range of emotions and motivations, all of the seven deadliest sins included. If we deny them, then we act them out someway. Add my aggressive impulses and feelings with yours and everyone else’s and we have “collective aggression”.

Dennis wrote

I also have trouble considering "agression" as a normal psychological function such as "fight or flight", especially the agression related to blood sports."

Most of us do not want to “own” that we have negative feelings and motivations. Most of us do not want to admit that we feel greed, avarice, sloth, lust etc. It simply is not “cool” to admit this about ourselves, let alone our culture.

I notice you used the term “fight.” Where did that come from? You state that “flight and fight” are normal psychological functions. These functions comes from the natural impulses of organisms to engage in fight or flight when faced with a threat. Isn’t then that fight inherent to our organism? I think so. Do we have to learn how to modify our impulses to aggress against others? I hope so. If we have to learn to channel it, it is then normal and in all of us. We have to teach children not to hit. Why do they want to hit “aggress”? They want to hit because they are not getting what they want and are using force to get what they want. This is not learned. What is learned is how to sublimate this feeling and behavior into more culturally accepted behavior. “Take it out on the field” I was told. “Big boys don’t cry”, what do they do? Act angry of course and try to find some wrong to right.

I appreciate your posts Dennis.

Iflyfish

fdt - 12-5-2006 at 06:40 PM

There is a post right now from iclarke asking if 300 will pay for 3 weeks in Baja. Do you think that someone like him that has never visited a country or a certain area of that country should also ask about the culture and customs. maybe he already has researched it and knows about bullfights, c-ckfights, turtle soup, monkey brains and other to some repulsive habits, but maybe the beautiful beaches, good foods, music, nightlife, nature, etc., outweigh the negative. I must confess that I love to eat turtle soup, so there

, but I certainly hope I don't loose a friendship because of it, I love bullfights, when I was young I jumped at the Tijuana bullring as an espontaneo and I dressed in lights at a bullfight in La Paz back in 74 at the estadio. So I guess that specialy if I was to move to a new country or state and I knew what theire traditions were, I would just shut up, specialy if it's not my country. At age 15 I went to live in La Paz by myself to study tourism and beeing from Tijuana I would of course miss some of the things from home that back then La Paz didn't have, maybe it was some sort of homesickness I'm not sure but I must have sounded like a complaining p..che gringo and someone very wise told me "Pero bien que estas aqui verdad" and "Si no te gusta nomas vete"

Cypress - 12-5-2006 at 06:49 PM

Would advise not eating any of those dead birds from rooster fights. Some folks give 'em arsenic, makes the blood clot and keeps 'em from bleeding out.

DENNIS - 12-5-2006 at 06:50 PM

How much cultural interchange can one fit into a three week vacation when he is chaseing the Baja Mystique...... the natural history and unique beauty of the land and sea? I used to stay in Mazatlan for six months on 150 dollars and, although I absorbed a lot of the culture, it wasn't the purpose for my trips.
I was young .... what did I know?

fdt - 12-5-2006 at 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lee
There are cultures who haven't ''gotten it'' yet, and that's what I speak to.

And who would be the authority or culture to tell what cultures have or have not gotten it?
How would we have those cultures get it?
peacefuly? And what if they still don't get it? By example? and if they still don't get it? Diplomacy? And then let's just say they still don't get it, what then?

fdt - 12-5-2006 at 06:55 PM

and what is it they don't get anyway?

DENNIS - 12-5-2006 at 07:00 PM

IFF -----------
Yes. I believe we have all the emotions and all potentials for human behavior but, not All human behavior for All people. To believe that is to say we actually have no control over ourselves. Do you think Mother Theresa could have run the ovens in Auschwitz? Not on her worst day and she wouldn't have had to control any impulse to the contrary. Strong moral conviction trumps basic capability. We grow out of that stage hopefully at a young age, our age of reason.

DENNIS - 12-5-2006 at 07:02 PM

fdt -----------
You might pose these questions to the U.S. administration.

DENNIS - 12-5-2006 at 07:04 PM

Sorry ............. No politics.

Iflyfish - 12-5-2006 at 07:09 PM

ftd

I have had the good luck to have helped a family unload their boat of turtles in San Felipe many years ago. This of course led to a wonerful dinner of soup and steaks. Delicious. I am glad that there is now focus on saving these creatures. Maybe one day we can have a bowl again.

I am not certain what your response to iclarke is about? Does he appear to be rude askiing these questions before learning some things? Does he appear forward in asking these things? I will go look for the post. I am interested in what he has said that generates your questions. There may be some cultural differences there or maybe something else?

Do you think there is a cultural difference between NorteAmericanos who feel free to exress their thoughts and feelings about customs and traditions without having relationships to do this in? I have heard native Mexicans say that they experience NorteAmericanos as loud, brash, opinionated, judgemental and pushy. Does iclarke's post strike you in that way?

You said "I must have sounded like a complaining p..che gringo and someone very wise told me "Pero bien que estas aqui verdad" and "Si no te gusta nomas vete"

I thank you for your honest sharing with us this experience. It is very rich with meaning to me. You moved from a big city to one being taken over by NorteAmericanos and that must have been a major adjustment for you. So much to get used to and to learn about! At such a young age. How fortunate you had a wiser person to share with you "Pero bien que estas aqui verdad" and "Si no te gusta nomas vete"
I am sorry that my Spanis is so poor that I cannot translate this so don't understand what was said to you. I wonder if you or someone would translate so I can understand this. I want to know what advice was given that helped you to be more tolerant and understanding. Sometimes I think there is too little of this in the world.

Thanks again for posting.

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 12-5-2006 at 07:15 PM

Lee

"We all have a light and dark side to us."

Exactly what I am saying. You say it more clearly than I. I just think it is important to "own" our dark side. We are less likely to act it out if we do.
I am not advocating the development of this side, there has already been too much of that in our history.

I think it behooves us to acknowledge and remove our own mote before trying to remove the others sliver.

Thanks Lee.

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 12-5-2006 at 07:17 PM

DanO,

Thanks for the advice. I'm a phishophile not a pedophile.

Iflyfishwhennotremovinghooksfrommyhide

Iflyfish - 12-5-2006 at 07:23 PM

fdt

You wrote

"And who would be the authority or culture to tell what cultures have or have not gotten it?
How would we have those cultures get it?
peacefuly? And what if they still don't get it? By example? and if they still don't get it? Diplomacy? And then let's just say they still don't get it, what then?"

Cultural Imperialism anyone?

Their are Moslem Clerics who have an idea or two for us NorteAmericanos about our "getting it".

Well said ftd, well said.

Ilfyfish

fdt - 12-5-2006 at 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
ftd

I have had the good luck to have helped a family unload their boat of turtles in San Felipe many years ago. This of course led to a wonerful dinner of soup and steaks. Delicious. I am glad that there is now focus on saving these creatures. Maybe one day we can have a bowl again.

Yes it's been years, I'm sure it will taste even better.

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
I am not certain what your response to iclarke is about? Does he appear to be rude askiing these questions before learning some things? Does he appear forward in asking these things? I will go look for the post. I am interested in what he has said that generates your questions. There may be some cultural differences there or maybe something else?

What I am saying is that he probably already knows about the culture

Iflyfish - 12-5-2006 at 07:26 PM

I mean no offence to iclarke for his post. I have not yet read it but it has struck a cord with ftd, a native Mexican, so I am interested in what he said. Where can I find it?

Iflyfish

fdt - 12-5-2006 at 07:31 PM

Here goes again:

Do the people that hate c-ckfighting, bullfighting, turtleeating and so on know that all of this is going on before entering México?
If they do, do they know that it's part of the culture?
Are they here to change it?
Do they want it to be the same as what they left behind?
Wouldn't it be a lot easier to accept, they don't have to participate.

DENNIS - 12-5-2006 at 07:31 PM

Go to Todays Posts

TWO QUESTIONS / NEVER TRAVELED TO BAJA

Pretty close to the top at this moment

Iflyfish - 12-5-2006 at 07:32 PM

ftd

I found his post

"two questions, never traveled baja

Hi,
I was wondering if anyone could answer some of my questions as I hav bever traveld in Baja, or even Mexico for that reason. I plan on backpacking, camping out in a tent most of the time. I plan on hitting up some hotels every now and then looking for a private room. I have heard 300 or so US dollars is plenty for traveling Baja for two weeks. Is this true? Also, I am unsure what the safest way to carry ash is... Should I carry cash or rock out with a debit card?
Lastly, I am flying into San Diego, menaing I will need to drive over the border. What forms of ID will Ineed to enter/leave Mexico?
best regards,
-Ian "

What is it about this post that you are reacting too? I still don't understand? I may have the same bone in my nose.

Thanks,

Iflyfish

toneart - 12-5-2006 at 07:34 PM

Iflyfish raises a great question (paraphrasing): Are bloodsports a substitute for war?

Are they? Do they take the pressure off humans of every culture?

Does this apply to spectators as well as participants?

What about watching war on television? Does that serve the same purpose. It is presented as a form of entertainment.

How about returning vets? Have they had enough so that they will never want to watch boxing, football, bull fighting, c-ck fighting, etc.?

My personal belief is that, yes, we all have a Hitler within us. We are all capable of killing. I also think some enjoy it and others are repulsed by it. These tendencies do not seem to be exclusive to any one culture.

These are base traits that humans possess. But the gift that we humans possess is the ability to rise above this baseness. Here's how:

Do a gut check. How do bloodsports, war, cruelty, torture make you feel? If you have been desensitized by life's experiences so as to not feel much, can you reach back and remember how you felt about these things as a child?

Look into your soul; What does your religious or spiritual or humanist experience say to you?

How would you like sadists, bullies, torturers or murderers to treat you? (I'm not considering self-defense instincts here).

How does negative attention and name calling make you feel?

Can you remember when you started to desensitize? Was it peer influence; your parents; a sibling; a teacher? Can you remember the transition?

I'm just saying that, just because we possess these traits, it doesn't mean that it is OK to act on them. We can control them. We can be better human beings.

Is the following hypocrisy?: I like the skill level and the artistry (if you will) in watching football and boxing and auto racing. When someone gets hurt or dies, I really feel horrible....for that person....for his/her family and friends.
In most cultures we (especially boys) all played sports. It was mandatory in school. It was also fun. Many of us participated in sports in college or in the military or in leagues. We appreciate the skill level that specially talented people and professionals possess. We know what it takes. Most of us don't measure up, but we can fantasize and live vicariously.

Some people do go to boxing matches and auto races to see someone get hurt or killed. Some people enjoy it when our team or our country kicks the others' asses. There is a concerted public relations campaign to villify the "other" and make them faceless. It doesn't matter if they die because they are less than us; less than human. I know that's true. I don't get it. There was a time when I did.

fdt - 12-5-2006 at 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
ftd

I found his post

What is it about this post that you are reacting too? I still don't understand? I may have the same bone in my nose.

Thanks,

Iflyfish

He's not asking about the culture or customs, so I imagine he knows.

DENNIS - 12-5-2006 at 07:40 PM

Lots of people go to Mexico with pre-formed notions about these issues. Lots of others dont and couldn't care less.
I don't feel that it's a good idea to travel to another country with plans to change the culture. If one adopts the new culture and the new culture adopts him, I feel he has every right to have an opinion on all things new and old.
But, if I ever go to Turkey, I wont pray in a Mosque.

Lee - 12-5-2006 at 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fdt
Here goes again:

Do the people that hate c-ckfighting, bullfighting, turtleeating and so on know that all of this is going on before entering México?
If they do, do they know that it's part of the culture?
Are they here to change it?
Do they want it to be the same as what they left behind?
Wouldn't it be a lot easier to accept, they don't have to participate.

I"ll give you an example of something. Once in Pescadero, a dog was killed on the highway. I'm the kind of person, up North, who stops to drag dead animals off the road. Doesn't matter what shape they're in.

I was in a hurry that day and didn't stop to get this dog. By afternoon, when I passed it again, it was too late. I would have needed a large scraper to get it off the road and didn't think the traffic would cut me any slack.

I brought the issue up to a local who said: Mexicans are superstitious and don't like death. Something like that. Maybe I'm thinking they don't like dogs too.

Next time, I'll stop sooner. Maybe my behavior will influence someone to do the same for a dead animal next time. Maybe not.

I recognize that there are things about Baja, Mexico, that I don't like and think are backwards and unenlightened. I accept that. Not everyone in Baja and Mexico is backwards and unenlightened. Just some people. I can have a moral and ethical judgment about c-ckfighting and bullfighting and not be judgmental. I'm not Mother Theresa and not here to save the world -- though in my younger years I wasted alot of time trying to do that. Some part of me is still trying to do that as a Paramedic. (Today, I chastised an older man (older than me) who was using a chainsaw that he needed to have on a helmet and goggles and that if the chainsaw kicked back and took off his head, I'd treat him but tell him I told him so.)

In regard to Baja, I'm a guest, I'll always be a guest and even after I have Mexican citizenship, I"ll still be a guest and respect the people. Doesn't mean I have to respect the people who haven't gotten it. And I can state that people enjoying themselves at cage fighting events, or c-ckfighting, or eating turtles that might be endangered, haven't gotten it.

There are people who will die stupid. I know some.

:cool:

Iflyfish - 12-5-2006 at 07:53 PM

ftd,

You wrote

"Here goes again:
ftd,

You wrote

"Here goes again:

Do the people that hate c-ckfighting, bullfighting, turtleeating and so on know that all of this is going on before entering México?
If they do, do they know that it's part of the culture?
Are they here to change it?
Do they want it to be the same as what they left behind?
Wouldn't it be a lot easier to accept, they don't have to participate."

It sounds like some of the opinions of NorteAmericanos regarding bullfighting, c-ckfighting; turtle eating etc are offensive to you as these things are part of your culture. It would be like you coming to the USofA and making a fuss about us eating turkey for dinner at Thanksgiving.

Is it like the feeling you had when you saw what happened to Cabo when the NorteAmericanos came and changed everything? Like something important to you was being criticized and taken away?

I am glad that you are posting here on this topic. I don't know if we NorteAmericanos get how insulting we can be by questioning criticizing or trying to change these differences.

Do the people that hate c-ckfighting, bullfighting, turtleeating and so on know that all of this is going on before entering México?
If they do, do they know that it's part of the culture?
Are they here to change it?
Do they want it to be the same as what they left behind?
Wouldn't it be a lot easier to accept, they don't have to participate."

It sounds like some of the opinions of NorteAmericanos regarding bullfighting, c-ckfighting; turtle eating etc are offensive to you as these things are part of your culture. It would be like you coming to the USofA and making a fuss about us eating turkey for dinner at Thanksgiving.

Is it like the feeling you had when you saw what happened to Cabo when the NorteAmericanos came and changed everything? Like something important to you was being criticized and taken away?

I am glad that you are posting here on this topic. I don't know if many of us NorteAmericanos get how insulting we can be by questioning criticizing or trying to change these differences.

The Federal Government of Canada resides on the East Coast of Canada and in an area where French is commonly spoken. Many Federal Legislators believed that because of the history of the French in Canada and the numbers of French speakers in Canada that they should make the ENTIRE country bilingual. Well that really made the people of British Columbia mad. There are not many French speakers in British Columbia, or that was true at the time. Anyway they ended up having to have both languages on all things sold in the ENTIRE country. There was an outcry, a huge debate. They felt that the French Canadians were imposing their culture and values on them and did not like it one bit. There were cries of Cultural Imperialism raised against the French Politicians who proposed and supported the law. Both Canada and France require that a certain percentage of their broadcast media be of Canadian and French origin. They do not want the “Cultural Imperialism” of the USofA to be thrust upon them unawares. Since the USofA is so powerful, I don’t think we have had much experience of being the recipient of this. It is good to hear from a person of another culture what this is like.

Iflyfish

Iflyfish

Oso - 12-5-2006 at 07:59 PM

Having seen "Midnight Express", I ain't never going to Turkey, no how, no way.

"There are only three true sports: Bullfighting, Mountaineering, and Auto Racing. The rest are just games."
-E. Hemingway

Iflyfish - 12-5-2006 at 08:10 PM

toneart,

I really like how you said this
"Do a gut check. How do bloodsports, war, cruelty, torture make you feel? If you have been desensitized by life's experiences so as to not feel much, can you reach back and remember how you felt about these things as a child?"

That sounds like a very good moral compass to me. I have come to understand the concept of sin as a choice not to follow this compass.

Having said that I have to be very careful applying my compass to your or anyone else’s journey. That is the rub. Does the other person want a compass? Is my compass of any use or value to them? Do they have their own way of navigating? If I offer my compass am I inherently saying that theirs is flawed?

I once had a professional philosopher in my boat. We fished many a time before I inquired as to his profession. I told him I had a philosopher in my boat all the time. I told him that philosopher started the engine each time I turned the key. We had a good laugh with that. Anyway he told me that as a philosopher, his field is Medical Ethics, that the important thing is to ask the questions that others may not have asked. The answers will emerge, ask good questions he told me.

I like your questions a lot. Do a gut check. Think about your history and acculturation. Do you feel ok doing what you are doing? Ask yourself questions about yourself. I like that a lot.

Iflyfish

fdt - 12-5-2006 at 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
It would be like you coming to the USofA and making a fuss about us eating turkey for dinner at Thanksgiving.

Having a gringa wife, yes, I have to go eat turkey on thanksgiving and I love the food. I would like to eat turkey dinner with all the trimings more often. As for the simbolism behind the turkey and the corn and all that, nobody from my family sailed with the pilgrims, but someone said that we probably cooked the turkey for them.

DENNIS - 12-5-2006 at 08:21 PM

IFF -----------
Speaking of shifting cultural imperialism, have you been in Southern California or Chicago lately?

DENNIS - 12-5-2006 at 08:25 PM

fdt ------
Or at least washed the dishes.

Iflyfish - 12-5-2006 at 08:29 PM

Dennis wrote

“IFF -----------
Yes. I believe we have all the emotions and all potentials for human behavior but, not All human behavior for All people. To believe that is to say we actually have no control over ourselves. Do you think Mother Theresa could have run the ovens in Auschwitz? Not on her worst day and she wouldn't have had to control any impulse to the contrary. Strong moral conviction trumps basic capability. We grow out of that stage hopefully at a young age, our age of reason.”

I do believe that we have lots of control over ourselves. I also believe it is important to know and understand ourselves so that we can exercise that control wisely.

I do believe we have primitive impulses and emotions that if we do not learn how to direct in positive ways can be very destructive. One of my favorite books and movies is Lord of the Flies. In that work the social system breaks down and a duke system evolves and it is survival of the strongest. The physically strong take over. I believe this to be human nature.

I do indeed believe that Mother Theresa would have run the ovens of Auschwitz had she not had some formative developmental experiences that mitigated against this. Why did she devote her life to suffering if she did not understand oppression? What was it in her history that led her to eschew her self-interest or recognize her self-interest was to focus on the needs of others? This sort of act comes out of some sort of illumination that generally is preceded by some painful experience or awareness. What was it she recognized in herself that she needed to overcome in order to do what she did? I do not know about her history, maybe someone else can help us to better understand what motivated her.

Of Theresa you say “Not on her worst day and she wouldn't have had to control any impulse to the contrary.” I wonder. I wonder if she went through a “dark night of the soul”, a questioning of purpose. A battle with her self over her meaning, purpose etc. If one meditates it does not take long to run into our demons. She had hers too. She was human after all. She BECAME a saint. She was not born one.

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 12-5-2006 at 08:34 PM

fdt

I like turkey too. It is hard to enjoy or digest it if you have a militant vegitarian at your table.

Ilfyfish

Iflyfish - 12-5-2006 at 08:38 PM

Oso, you could have gone all day without saying that

What, oh no, Hemminway considered fishing a game? Oh, no....no.. no

Iflyfishwhennotcrushedbytherealizationpapahemminwaythinksit'sagame

Iflyfish - 12-5-2006 at 08:39 PM

Well, I have been laying around all day wretching from my thphoid pill, pwueee.

Great dialogue. I appreciate all of the posts today, took my thoughts away from my wreched body.

Off to Baja soon!

Iflyfish

From one town to another

fdt - 12-5-2006 at 08:50 PM

Before the days of president Lopez Portillo, Tijuana or most of it's long time residents did not use pesos, Tecate did, mexicali did, Ensenada did but Tijuana was dollars only to see pesos was not an everyday thing, Once my uncle from Ensenada gave me some mexican 20¢ coins that they used for the jukeboxes they had and when I tried to spend them in school (mexican school) they would not accept them. I remember some people (mexican) thought Tijuana was in the US. That was a cultural difference within the same culture even the same state.

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