BajaNomad

Illegal nets

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fishbuck - 5-11-2007 at 08:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto


Why not start in the States?

Skeet/Loreto


Well Skeets, that's a good suggestion.
I live in Costa Mesa, Ca. I think I live in one of the greatest places in the world. I'm super healthy and have a great job and I attribute that to this area.
But at the same time I really don't like it here because of the volumn of people.
To me this area is already ruined. What can I really do? 1 man crushed by millions. I spend alot of my time hiding like a mouse in a hole. All I really want to do is escape like you did to my own Rancho Sunrisa.
But Baja is a different story. It's not overrun with people yet. And there is a chance to make a difference and do it right this time.
Is that so hard for you to understand. I don't believe the local natives have the right to destroy the place anymore than the devolopers from Newport Beach do. Baja belongs to everyone who loves it in it's natural state. That natural state needs to be preserved and protected. And that includes each and every creature including rattle snakes.
Sure we can harvest some fish but it must be done carefully and in a sustainable manner. Error to the safe side.
Otherwise all your local native fishing buddies will end up as rock farmers or waiters. If they're lucky.

[Edited on 5-12-2007 by fishbuck]

Don Alley - 5-11-2007 at 08:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
How strange-------I did not see anybody "crap on those that do give a damn", as Don says. I just saw folks that wondered why Green Peace did not protest this long ago, and it looks like maybe they did.

And also wondered why a local did not obey the law.

I have a hunch that EVERYBODY on this board would like to see things done in a much more environmentally friendly way.

End of story, it seems to me.


Barry, you are on the wrong thread. This is the "illegal netting" thread, not the "Greenpeace/Puerto Los Cabos" thread.

End of story.

Barry A. - 5-11-2007 at 08:50 PM

Thanks, Don-----but I realize that. The "Puerto" thread disappeared, so I thought that this was a semi-related thread, with many of the same participants, so thought I would just chime in.

I still think that basically we all really agree on most of the Baja related Environmental issues, but that the methods used to make the public aware are what is questioned.

Also, the issue of local folks thinking that they are above the law to the detriment of everybody (everything?) else---------I have a real problem with that concept, even tho they may not understand what they are doing.

Thanks for your response, and trying to keep me out of trouble----I appreciate that. :yes:

DENNIS - 5-11-2007 at 09:46 PM

Skeets ----- Thanks for the bio.............. I appreciate that.

You'll have to wait till tomorrow for my blistering reply. I've had it for today.
Hasta mañana.

jerry - 5-11-2007 at 11:06 PM

dennis i never mentioned the word teachers you must be hung up on yourself again?? lol

jerry - 5-11-2007 at 11:26 PM

sharks
in oregon all the while the people who should know whats going on with the fish (fish and game) were blaming the local harvest they turned there heads the other way as factory ships off shore gobbelled up all the fish everyone from the loggers to the fisherman were blamed as the politics sold out to the highs bidders the greenys joined right in with their hands out to save us all from ourselves and in truth became part of the problem
then the spotted owl the greeny used to fill there coffers with donations the whole thing was trumped up only to stop logging so the city dwellers would donate more bucks theres no danger to the spotted owl they live in barns and second growth
so now the state doesnt get much timber taxes for there schools and the greenys march on to another made up cause feeding on the ignorent

IMHO

Sharksbaja - 5-11-2007 at 11:55 PM

Fish & Game has their head up their____. They have never got it right except for maybe some salmon restoration projects which probably ruined the gene pool. Silting-in of bays and estuaries from decades of bad runoff practices by timber companies took it's toll years ago. Salmon are affected by many different aspects of the environment in their long distance spawn cycle. I would offer that mistakes made have been fodder for the timber cos and the F&G Certain elements have been addressed particularily in stream enhancement and shade buffers. WE can learn how to manage stuff but the bueracracy comes first I fear. So I feel a bit of personal responsibility to acknowledge Bajas diversity and precious features and fragile areas. Why wouldn't I kill and keep a delicious shark. Why should I not feel passionate about giving a damn. Because I want it to last, pray tell.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-12-2007 at 06:01 AM

Dennis: While you are resting: Look up and tell me about the Deer Debackle. The Aramdillo Debackle:

O yes , Protect the Deer from the Hunters. Save the Deer!!
There were 43 Deer in my front yard yesterday, some very small, from lack of Proper Breeding due to their Protection!

Dennis:
Who are you trying to SAVE everything For???
Why Future Generations???

It seems to me that the Do Gooders are trying to act Like God with no idea of Faith Hope and Charity.

Why not work on the People? They are the ones that will grow up to take care of themselves. Good , Bad , or Indeffrent!

You cannot Legistate "Morallity".

Skeet/Loreto

DENNIS - 5-12-2007 at 07:53 AM

That's another good one, Skeet -----

You can't legislate morality but it's OK to legislate mortality.

What do you think, Skeet? Isn't legislating mortality a moral issue?

Just curious ------- Why don't you put up a fence? Or, just go out there and bludgeon Bambi with an ax handle if things like that don't bother you.

DENNIS - 5-12-2007 at 08:04 AM

Quote:
education of the mexican people showing them how they can live in socity in harmany and keep there pride will work by example this is not going to happen over night and its not going to happen by burning thier fish nets




Jerry ---- Right on. You didn't say "teacher." But, as you can see above, you clearly implied it.

jerry - 5-12-2007 at 10:49 AM

dennis again nothing is clear to you your doing the inplying not me
i said show by example not teach
i can see by your posts you think teach is driving it in thier heads and if they dont do as you tell them then resort to violents against them
seems the teacher need some education of his own??

DENNIS - 5-12-2007 at 11:27 AM

OK Jerry, you're right. I hadn't realized the difference between "show by example" and "teach" but, there it is. Plain as day.
See Jerry? Now you're the teacher. Thanks.

Slowmad - 5-12-2007 at 11:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by grover
Anybody ever read about the Tragedy of the Commons?


No need to read it when you're paddling through it daily.

Slowmad - 5-12-2007 at 12:13 PM

I kiped the slogan from a painting I had by some guy who lived at Baja Tradewinds in the 70s...
Keep it rollin'...

Only one more thing to say...

Sharksbaja - 5-12-2007 at 12:22 PM

FRICKIN' NETS!!#@!*#

Slowmad - 5-12-2007 at 12:24 PM

What ho!

That'd be him.
My friend George was a neighbor, and a piece of his found its way to me.
Wish i still had it.
Always dug the sentiment of the tagline.

Thanks for the link.
And Duncan Hunter is not welcome at my camp fire.

DENNIS - 5-12-2007 at 12:30 PM

If Duncan Hunter had any idea how deadly fishing nets are, he would have them strung the length of the US/MEX border.

Slowmad - 5-12-2007 at 12:38 PM

Valve stems, mijo.
Valve stems.

Cypress - 5-12-2007 at 01:08 PM

If the illegal net situation isn't brought under control the inshore fisheries will be wiped out with the exception of some reef fish. Then they'll move offshore.:no:

Skeet/Loreto - 5-12-2007 at 04:34 PM

"IF"

"If Roberta had had Balls , we would have called her Uncle Robert""

jerry - 5-12-2007 at 10:46 PM

balls without brains is like a blind hog it will root out a acorn every once in a while

Cypress - 5-14-2007 at 05:58 AM

"If" If gill nets had not been banned in the northern Gulf of Mexico the inshore fishery would have been over by now. Gill nets were outlawed and the fishing is excellent.:yes:

Minnow - 5-14-2007 at 07:26 AM

Dennis, the only people I know of running nets in our area are Chuy's family. They string them right across the openings between the rocks off of Punta Banda. Where do you think that pile of crab comes from you see sitting on the table when you drive by? Anyone ever buy those, if so, you are part of the problem.

Skeet, these people are not poor. As a matter of fact, they own ranches and properties all over the area. If the poor people fish, at least where I live, they are uni divers.

Have I ever taken out their nets.. Si Senior. With the propeller of my outboard. Lets call it an accident. They have plenty of money to buy new ones though.

I only take what I can eat, and maybe a few to give to my neighbors. I don't like frozen fish, or old fish.

DENNIS - 5-14-2007 at 07:47 AM

Yeah ---- That's a real appetizing sight. A pile of dead spider crabs cooking in the sun. I don't buy them. I wouldn't take them if they were free. I wouldn't take them if they were alive and well.
I am aware, however, of the blind efficiency of gill nets. I used to fish commercially with deep water nets. Anything that swims into them is dead. Fortunately for the fish, our nets were too often empty but, in those days nobody questioned the methods for the decline of fish. We just called it another bad day.

Skeet/Loreto - 5-14-2007 at 10:43 AM

I so pity all of you Weak-minded Do Gooders who thin that you are doing something "Good" trying to save the Fish.

If you were to succeed, it would have to be with Military Enforcement and which Do Gooder would be the Head of that Group.

As I awoke to another Beautifull Day, a very sad picturewas brought back to my Memory:

1951/52 North Korea where my tears flowed and my Heart broke, watching starving Children eating Bugs and Worms to keep from Starving to Death.

Their Evil Govt. still thrives, the Do Gooder Military Eats Well while its Children Starve. and you People want to keep Fish off the Market that may end up keeping a Child Alive. SHAME ON YOU!!!

At lease our efforts in the War saved the South Koreans from Starving.

Minnow, if you went to the Baja Sur Coast and cut some nets, your Body would one day come ashore wraped in a Net.

Skeet/Loreto

Minnow - 5-14-2007 at 11:02 AM

Skeet, I don't want to make light of your heartfelt post. However, it is hard to grasp exactly where you are coming from. The poor in Mexico/baja are usually so poor, at least from what I have seen, they could never afford a net. Nets are for the rapers these days. I would have loved to have been alive to see the SOC in 1950. I was there in 1980.1990.and 2000. Don't tell me the fishing is still the same.

You are living off an old model. One where a rich young millionaire in Mexico had to make friends with the locals. The rym's nowadays have plenty of company. The foundation you laid is well in place. Good work my man.

Sharksbaja - 5-14-2007 at 01:04 PM

;):):yes: Hey Minnow....were on the same page.:lol:

and what you say is true IMHO. Skeet...hello...

Skeet/Loreto - 5-14-2007 at 02:11 PM

I will agree that the fishing is not the same as it was 20 30 years ago.
In the past, the Loreto area, neting of Fish and taking the Cabrilla with Spearguns was Illegal and was and is still be enforced!
In the Past 20 years, the Miltary came in and started enforcing the Limit of the Fish.
Many Sport fisherman stopped coming to the Loreto Area because of the restrictions.
I saw the removal of the Sierra from the Bays, whereby the Yellowtail moved out to deep water for the Mackeral. The Sierra are coming Back.

I saw Whales and Squid beach themselves as an act of their Nature.

Where I am coming from is that I firmly beleive that Mexico is for Mexicans- That American or Canadian Do- Gooders should become Good Doers and start in their own Country and let the Mexicans take care of themselves.
How do you expect anyone in any Country that is Hungry from buying food for Survival. What about the Cat and Dog Food produced from the byproducts. Should all Americans get rid of their Pets, thereby stopping that part of the equation???

Why was there no "Do Gooder outcry when for 3 years in the Past 10, Hannjin was taking 1,000's of Tons of Squid out of the Loreto area each night from April to Sept.??- It was being shipped to South Korea for Food.

I think that the Major reason for a decline in the Fish Count around Loreto is because of the taking of the Squid, the decline of the Sportfisherman.
The Sea of Cortez is still Rich in Fish. It is a long way from being "Ruined as the Eco-nuts Hollar about.

It appears to me that many Do Gooders find a Platform, then use Scare Tactics to elicit Support by giving them Money.

I think that they should become Good Doers with Actions to help People instead of Do Gooders who Talk and Scare People.

Minnow, if you would like to see and Help some poor People of Baja sur, I suggest that you get many warm Jackets, go to the General Hospital in Cuidad Constution. Go with the Social Worker to deliver those Jacket, then come back on this Board and tell us about the Children you Helped.

Saving the Fish for the Future Generation?? Look what happened to my Generation after we went to War, trying to save Generations from the N-zis the Japanese: Our Country one of the largest users of DOPE.
The yougones cannot save a Dime for the Future, but contuine to get into Deeper Debt., Half are fighting a War, the Wimps are Protest, our Prisons are Full, Children are killing Children in the Schools.

Do you expect a Mexican Fisherman, Commercial or Not respecting an American coming into his Country and trying to force him into not catching and selling a Food Product???

I think your efforts should go to doing something to help the present Generation who in the process maybe able to help the Future Generation.

Skeet/Loreto

fishbuck - 5-14-2007 at 02:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
I will agree that the fishing is not the same as it was 20 30 years ago.
In the past, the Loreto area, neting of Fish and taking the Cabrilla with Spearguns was Illegal and was and is still be enforced!
In the Past 20 years, the Miltary came in and started enforcing the Limit of the Fish.
Many Sport fisherman stopped coming to the Loreto Area because of the restrictions.
I saw the removal of the Sierra from the Bays, whereby the Yellowtail moved out to deep water for the Mackeral. The Sierra are coming Back.

I saw Whales and Squid beach themselves as an act of their Nature.

Where I am coming from is that I firmly beleive that Mexico is for Mexicans- That American or Canadian Do- Gooders should become Good Doers and start in their own Country and let the Mexicans take care of themselves.
How do you expect anyone in any Country that is Hungry from buying food for Survival. What about the Cat and Dog Food produced from the byproducts. Should all Americans get rid of their Pets, thereby stopping that part of the equation???

Why was there no "Do Gooder outcry when for 3 years in the Past 10, Hannjin was taking 1,000's of Tons of Squid out of the Loreto area each night from April to Sept.??- It was being shipped to South Korea for Food.

I think that the Major reason for a decline in the Fish Count around Loreto is because of the taking of the Squid, the decline of the Sportfisherman.
The Sea of Cortez is still Rich in Fish. It is a long way from being "Ruined as the Eco-nuts Hollar about.

It appears to me that many Do Gooders find a Platform, then use Scare Tactics to elicit Support by giving them Money.

I think that they should become Good Doers with Actions to help People instead of Do Gooders who Talk and Scare People.

Minnow, if you would like to see and Help some poor People of Baja sur, I suggest that you get many warm Jackets, go to the General Hospital in Cuidad Constution. Go with the Social Worker to deliver those Jacket, then come back on this Board and tell us about the Children you Helped.

Saving the Fish for the Future Generation?? Look what happened to my Generation after we went to War, trying to save Generations from the N-zis the Japanese: Our Country one of the largest users of DOPE.
The yougones cannot save a Dime for the Future, but contuine to get into Deeper Debt., Half are fighting a War, the Wimps are Protest, our Prisons are Full, Children are killing Children in the Schools.

Do you expect a Mexican Fisherman, Commercial or Not respecting an American coming into his Country and trying to force him into not catching and selling a Food Product???

I think your efforts should go to doing something to help the present Generation who in the process maybe able to help the Future Generation.

Skeet/Loreto


Wow Skeets, your the one who sounds like the bleedig heart liberal!
So some people in Baja are poor and starving. How'd that happen?
Who's responsible?
Here's a novel idea. If you can't support children then don't have any. Why don't you tell that to you local buddies.
And not everyone in the US is on drugs or doesn't save enough for retirement or all the other bad things you described.
Wh are you so bitter and hate people from the US.
I'm glad the mexican people are starting to manage their fish better. Good for them!
But you know Skeets, people can believe in whatever causes they like. I personlly would rather save the cortez and Baja than any people who seem intent on ruining it by overfishing it.
If you want to take you millions and pass out jackets to starving poor people who probably should never have been born go ahead. No one is stopping you.
By why get down on people who are trying to help in a different way. I'm sure there are lots of fish left in the Cortez. I'm counting on it. But it's stupid to fish them until they are all gone. Just like it's stupid to produce children you can't support. Just because you have a family to support does not justify ruining the enviornment or breaking the law.
That's cheating and is the exact opposite of being a responsible adult.

Sharksbaja - 5-14-2007 at 02:59 PM

Yes Skeet, Mexicans should make, honor and enforce their sovereign nation. That should include this near shore environment. It's wonderful to hear and see the progression towards managing and acting as good stewards. But as many point out, the net has huge holes in it. I've seen the trawlers in the Bay of Conception more recently. I doubt they were approached at all and they are part of the Guaymas fleet not locals.
THat doesn't mean that the locals abide either. I don't know if long-lining for shark is allowed in there but I've seen huge piles of rotting shark and ray parts in a few places. As far as netting goes, I wouldn't be suprised to see that occur either in there.

My point is; Mexicans as well as any other country can learn stuff from others and protect themselves for similar fate(s). Even though marine science is so inexact, there is much the world has gleaned towards being good stewards. Don't you think every nation has a moral obligation to protect their own productive waters. That means learning from others and ACTUALLY ENFORCING the laws they created.
I know money has a lot to do with the equation. My belief is that the people of Mexico get nothing from these ventures and have everything to lose.

vandenberg - 5-14-2007 at 03:02 PM

Hey fishbuck,
You better write the Pope about those kids they're not able to support.:light::(:O:tumble::tumble:

DENNIS - 5-14-2007 at 03:53 PM

Fish ---

Bad analogy. People have kids out of human instinct, to propagate a species.
People fish because they are hungry and want to eat.
Other people fish because they want all of the yen they can gather.
They are the problem.

But, lets take it to another level.........one taken by the Mexican government in the drug issue.
It is their point that demand controlls supply. The U.S. market sets the need and the tempo of supply.
This is true.
Mexico, by this point, can't controll the need and since they can't do that, they can't controll supply.
Without aborting this thread, lets transfer the "need/supply" to tuna.
Isn't this the international business philosophy of Mexico? Give them what they pay for?

fishbuck - 5-14-2007 at 04:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Fish ---

Bad analogy. People have kids out of human instinct, to propagate a species.



That is animal instinct you described. Propagate the species? Your kidding right. Isn't there like 6 billion people on the planet.
Human intelligence is the ability to plan for the future. If I have children do I have the ability to support them, educate them, help them find a place in society etc.
That's what is suppose to set humans apart from other animals.
But if you create a bunch of children that you can't support you are no better than a stupid animal.
It's time to let natural selection take it's course.

DENNIS - 5-14-2007 at 04:39 PM

Yeah... thats a good one.

You talk about humanity like they all went to college. What is that drives a Mexican family to be large, or any other culture that passes on familial responsibility to offspring? The young will care for the old.
That is natural selection.

I was supporting you on your altruistic stand but, I'll back off. I don't think you see all of the real picture at this point.

fishbuck - 5-14-2007 at 04:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by vandenberg
Hey fishbuck,
You better write the Pope about those kids they're not able to support.:light::(:O:tumble::tumble:


Why, does the Pope have a bunch of kids he can't support?
Maybe the catholics should follow the example of their Pope.

DENNIS - 5-14-2007 at 04:47 PM

Hey fish ----

You're making less sense by the minute. Are you drunk and out of control?

fishbuck - 5-14-2007 at 04:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Yeah... thats a good one.

You talk about humanity like they all went to college. What is that drives a Mexican family to be large, or any other culture that passes on familial responsibility to offspring? The young will care for the old.
That is natural selection.

I was supporting you on your altruistic stand but, I'll back off. I don't think you see all of the real picture at this point.


Well Dennis, if that ever worked I think it's a bit obsolete. And kind of selfish too.
I think you'd be better off skipping the kids and saving your money for health insurance.
Isn't that how we do it in the new world?
As far as altruism? Wrong guy. I believe in mutually beneficial capitalism. I get what I need and you get what you need. We both win as long as we didn't hurt anyone or the planet ( the fish! ) to get it.
Strangly though, I have felt the urge to try and help someone in Baja lately. Don't get the wrong idea. I'm doing it for me and the warm and fuzzy I'll get from it. You didn't think I was getting soft or something did you?

DENNIS - 5-14-2007 at 05:46 PM

Oh, c'mon fish ----

A culture is obsolete? Not yours, of course but, another culture is out of date?
Jeezo... If they only knew that you felt that way, what might happen?
Doncha think that's a bit arrogant?
For Mexicans to practice their time honored culture is, as you put it, selfish?
They should, in the interest of modernity, buy more rubbers and health insurance?

I have lived here for quite a while and, untill our conversation, never understood fully what Mexicans found so abrasive about our superior attitude when discussing culture.
Now, thanks to you, I know.

What new world are you seeing that tells people how many kids they can have? China does that, don't they?

fishbuck - 5-14-2007 at 06:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Oh, c'mon fish ----

A culture is obsolete? Not yours, of course but, another culture is out of date?
Jeezo... If they only knew that you felt that way, what might happen?
Doncha think that's a bit arrogant?
For Mexicans to practice their time honored culture is, as you put it, selfish?
They should, in the interest of modernity, buy more rubbers and health insurance?

I have lived here for quite a while and, untill our conversation, never understood fully what Mexicans found so abrasive about our superior attitude when discussing culture.
Now, thanks to you, I know.

What new world are you seeing that tells people how many kids they can have? China does that, don't they?

Doncha think that's a bit arrogant?

I have lived here for quite a while and, untill our conversation, never understood fully what Mexicans found so abrasive about our superior attitude when discussing culture.
Now, thanks to you, I know.


No, I think it's enlightened and pragmatic. I believe their culture should evolve to survive and be sucessful. Just like we have in the US and some other developed nations.

Abrasive and superior? Hey I don't care what they do as long as they don't ruin the enviornment I plan to move to eventually.
If they want to have too many kids and live in squalor that's their business. This only promotes more poverty.
I plan to live neat,clean and responsible the way I have my whole life and my family has in the past and yes that is a superior way to live. To each his own. And to be honest I don't care what anybody thinks of me. I do the best I can and that gernerally is good enough for me. Of course there is always room for improvement.
When I fish I will only take what I need and that will probably be below the legal limit. I hope there is something I can do to enhance the fishery for the future. Maybe handing out condoms will do the trick.
I don't apologise because I believe my ethics are good but I am glad you understand things better now Dennis.
Let me know if I can help anymore!

DENNIS - 5-14-2007 at 06:35 PM

I believe their culture should evolve to survive and be sucessful. Just like we have in the US and some other developed nations.



Yes. I can't wait till they reach our level.

Ramping it up

Sharksbaja - 5-15-2007 at 12:53 AM

You guys certainly take took this subject to a new level. Do you think morality has a play in actually saving wild stocks? Can we look at each other from a purely non-selfish attitude while connecting the dots. Could religion be a factor?

I suppose if you get into comparitive cultures you could derive demographic numbers and maybe one could make an equation. It would be very interesting to see if say, Muslim countries had better wild stocks of comparitive fish in comparitive areas. Do other Latin countries share similar scenarios.
I suggest money is the religion at play here. It has nada to do with resource management. Perhaps there may be a grad study to clarify the dynamic impact on Bajas near/offshore fisheries from netting but I doubt this type of info and data could be gathered let alone permitted.:no:

Pescador - 5-15-2007 at 08:33 AM

I continue to sit on my hands and keep telling myself not to post on this issue but the pressure is building. I find it amazing and is probably part of the culture of the United States and to some degree Canada to figure that we are somehow the saviors and solution to the world. Here we are ranting about how to establish conservation in a country in which we are visitors. Even though I have been going to Mexico since the late 50's, and live there half of the year, I only have a small glimpse into the psyche and thought process of the Mexican culture. It is interesting to hear Pam Bolles and Shari from Asencion who have married into the culture saying that there are levels of culture that they struggle with understanding even though they are intimately involved. And yet, here we take the liberty and superior attitude that we know what the problem is and how to fix it. We can't even agree if Greenpeace or other consortions are in fact effective but we are going to unleash our management on the Mexican Culture and teach them how to conserve their resources. At least we owe them the respect of realizing that they are their resources. There is some kind of superiority communicated in Fishbuck's attitude that they have to be made to see how they are exploiting their resources.
It must be a part of our culture to expand our way of thinking to the world and show them how to do it. Is this not the same kind of thinking that caused us the problem in Iraq? Whether you support the war or not the fact remains that our reason for going (forget weapons of mass destruction) was to bring freedom and democracy to the middle east. If it took us 200+ years to learn how to live within freedom and democracy then how do we bring it about in a couple of years to a group of people who have never clearly indicated that is what they want to do with their lives.
So here we are importing our alpha male syndrome into Mexico and we haven't even taken time to listen to what they want and how we might help them achieve that. I'm not that sure that we have managed our own fish stocks all that effectively. Why in Colorado we have Whirling Disease which has affected every major river containing trout and that came from the Colorado Department of Game and Fish.
Skeet at least has the perception after having lived there for a long time that there is some kind of process going on here and it may well be the wrong one for the ultimate perpetuation of the species, but I still think that the Mexican people have the right to fail or succeed and our advice is better given when asked for.

Osprey - 5-15-2007 at 10:08 AM

Ah, the voice of reason. Mexico has big, better, best plans for the Sea of Cortez. go to www.mexidata.info and you'll learn all about it -- you can order the whole Mexican law/plan/mandate IN ENGLISH online.

jerry - 5-15-2007 at 10:15 AM

thank you Pescador well said my thoughts exactly

wilderone - 5-15-2007 at 11:00 AM

"Mexican people have the right to fail or succeed"
No human being on this earth has the right to exploit, diminish, poison, drive to extinction any species the planet supports, including Mexicans.
Greenpeace? You keep talking about Greenpeace. In just 10 minutes on the internet you will find innumerable entities which study and support wildlife on Earth - worldwide. Hard science. Elsewhere on this board is a long discussion on the tuna pens. And comparing it with salmon farming. Elsewhere is the so-called Greenpeace induced Pacific tuna fleet demise, leading to the tuna industry shifting to other countries. Do you finally get the idea that it's one earth? A global economy? Mexicans are exploiting an unregulated tuna penning industry to feed the Japanese. Ditto Malta, Spain and Libya. Here is what I found in about 5 minutes - the wealth of information - for your edification is ming-boggling, but it doesn't take rocket science to tell you that human beings are destroying the earth's resources far faster than ever before, and we cannot continue to allow such using and abusing and expect that there will be no ramifications. Each small incident - the development of a beach that has, for 1000 years been undeveloped, will have an adverse impact - no question about that. Overuse of an aquifer; diseased fish farms, etc. So cut the crap already about how anyone has a right to destroy something that everyone else on the earth is dependent upon. Rather, we are stewards of the earth's resources, and mankind has done a pitiful job. Here's a sampling:

“Salmon farms are source of sea lice, say scientists”. According to the Scottish-based Sea Trout Group (29th July) the “new research points to fish farm cages as most likely source of sea lice” and “show links between sea lice infestation on salmon farms and ‘pools’ of sea lice juveniles ready to infect wild fish on a Scottish sea loch”.
______________
Just over a year after the malachite green scandal blew up in the face of the Chilean salmon farming industry, the suspected carcinogen has once again been detected by Dutch health officials in farmed Chilean salmon destined for supermarkets across Europe. “In a survey of farmed salmon on sale at major stores, samples from Morrisons contained malachite green; a chemical banned in Britain in June 2002 amid concerns that it is toxic and might trigger cancer.
____________________
Literature holds many documented cases of fish diseases spreading from fish farms – for example, Ward et al. (2001) reports that in 1995 and 1998-1999 the Australian population of pilchard, Sardinops sagax, was affected by two mass mortalities that each killed more fish over a larger area than any other mono-specific fish-kill ever recorded. The responsible agent was found to be a previously unknown herpesvirus (pilchard herpesvirus PHV) thought to be exotic to Australian sardines. In 1995 but not in
1998, mortalities also spread to New Zealand (Smith, 1995). As a result, spawning biomass of S. sagax in South Australian waters fell by 75%; spawning biomass reduction following the 1998 event is estimated at about 70% (Ward et al., 2001).
_______________________
Tuna in Croatia seas: 'We don't have any'

By Elisabeth Rosenthal International Herald Tribune
Published: July 7, 2006

SUCURAJ, Croatia Two decades ago, the channels that separate the Adriatic islands here were brimming with tuna, a species so plentiful that tourists used to climb ladders by the sea to watch the schools swim by. Today, these majestic predators are rarely caught.

"You have to work a lot harder to catch fish of any kind," said Lubomir Petricivic, a fisherman who recently opened a restaurant in the harbor here. "Tuna? Impossible. We don't have any - we can't get it."

The tuna population in the Mediterranean is nearing extinction, a new WWF report released this past week has warned, with catches down 80 percent over the past few years, even among high-tech trawlers that now comb remote corners of the sea in search of the hard-to-find fish.

"This is past the alarm stage," said Simon Cripps, director of the Global Marine program at WWF. "We are seeing a complete collapse of the tuna population - it could disappear and never come back."

Bingo!

Sharksbaja - 5-15-2007 at 11:20 AM

"Mexican people have the right to fail or succeed"
No human being on this earth has the right to exploit, diminish, poison, drive to extinction any species the planet supports, including Mexicans.

Yeah, why the hell do you folks think that the elite few who cash in on tuna exploitation have a god given right to do so. The tuna belong to the seas which belong to the planet. You can't just indiscriminately scoop em up and send them to Japan.......or can you? Giving free reign to govt and corporate sponsors of these tuna farms is rediculous. You really believe that a country has a right to exploit any fishery. Good grief.

Anyone for a baleen sandwich??

Skeet/Loreto - 5-15-2007 at 11:35 AM

Dennis:
Tell me what difference will be if all Tuna are Gone?????

Wildone:
What will happen if a Species is Lost????

As i sat in the Dental Office awaiting the Picks and Shovels to arrive for the Cleaning of my Teeth, I was very pleasantly surpised to pick up a current Copy of "Newsweek" . "Harry S. Truman !!!!!!!
Could it be possible that this Country is looking for a "Fighter Type" for the Next President>> I hope So.

Do you People think that you have the "Right" to set the Agenda, Thinking and Responsibility for the "Future Generations"?


Over my 40 years on the Sea of Cortez, and in the early times I helped my Mexicano Friends in San Nicolas and Loreto Commerical Fish for Shark, Parquette, Yellowtail etc.. As a result of some of thatextra income from me buying the Gas for the Fishing, was Dental work on Children and Wives was Afforded. People were Helped, who wanted to Help themselves and their Familes.

What would happen if "Oscar" cut the Nets of the Mexican Fisherman??
You can no more stop the Neeting than you can stop the taking of DRUGS, by the American Public.

I do not have any "Hate" in my system. I was trying to point out that "People who live in Glass Houses, should not throw Stones"

How many on this Thread Have lived among the Mexican People, How many speak their Lanuage?

Thanks to all for a Good Discussion; Sure do hope we get a "Truman" in the next Election, maybe he can bring order out of Chaos and then another "Kennedy" who can again ask" Do not ask what your Country can do for you,
Ask What you can do for Your Country!!! Not Baja Mexico.

Skeet/Loreto

Cypress - 5-15-2007 at 11:55 AM

Maybe the key words to this issue are "frustration" followed by "hope"? We can see what has already happened in other areas, to other fish stocks.:)For the most part, it isn't a pretty picture.:(

Osprey - 5-15-2007 at 12:00 PM

Skeet, politics aside the other poster's comments are timely:

1. Yesterday marked the first day of the Shark Norma 029 law allowing inshore netting and longlining in the Sea of Cortez
2. Most of the boats in the Cabo San Lucas marina made a parade protest in the packed marina (they blocked the marina but let the cruise ships in)
3. 3 large Profepa patrol boats were trailered to this area (Palmas bay of East Cape) to begin daily patrols of inshore and offshore waters to look for violations of maritime/fishing operations under existing and new laws.

DENNIS - 5-15-2007 at 12:04 PM

No more tuna sandwiches.

fishbuck - 5-15-2007 at 12:53 PM

Anybody know the details of Shark Norma 029. The sportfishing fleet was not too happy about it. Why?

Pescador - 5-15-2007 at 01:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
"Mexican people have the right to fail or succeed"
No human being on this earth has the right to exploit, diminish, poison, drive to extinction any species the planet supports, including Mexicans. :fire:


So let's invade Mexico, line up the bad guys and shoot em.

I agree that everything that someone who lives south of the border may have an ultimate influence on me, but the process of treaties and binational agreement is a long ardous process. If you are going to change something you at least need to respect the other person's point of view.
I have a good friend in Santa Rosalia who I have had long discussions with concerning conservation of fish stocks and he looked at me one night and responded with: " Of course you want to save the fish, you like to catch them for recreation, but I need to catch them for food to eat today, and that makes a difference. You have a full belly and mine is frequently empty, so we sometimes have a different view of the world, no?"

backninedan - 5-15-2007 at 01:28 PM

Fishbuck, here is a site that explains shark norma 209 in detail.

http://www.seawatch.org/position_papers/shark_norma.php

fishbuck - 5-15-2007 at 01:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Pescador
Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
"Mexican people have the right to fail or succeed"
No human being on this earth has the right to exploit, diminish, poison, drive to extinction any species the planet supports, including Mexicans. :fire:


So let's invade Mexico, line up the bad guys and shoot em.

I agree that everything that someone who lives south of the border may have an ultimate influence on me, but the process of treaties and binational agreement is a long ardous process. If you are going to change something you at least need to respect the other person's point of view.
I have a good friend in Santa Rosalia who I have had long discussions with concerning conservation of fish stocks and he looked at me one night and responded with: " Of course you want to save the fish, you like to catch them for recreation, but I need to catch them for food to eat today, and that makes a difference. You have a full belly and mine is frequently empty, so we sometimes have a different view of the world, no?"


So why is it that he is so hungry and your not? Why is fishing a sport for you and a matter of life and death for him?
That's kinda of been my point. They have created their own problems. And now he wants to solve this problem by creating a new bigger problem. (Overfishing)
Tourism probably creates more money for them than commercial fishing. My guess is that sportfishing alone has very little impact on the fishery when the catch limits are followed.

Minnow - 5-15-2007 at 02:03 PM

Pescador, I don't know a Mexican alive who worries about how much he has in his belly. Sure hunger makes a person do almost anything, but talk about it. Now, if you would have said how much his children had to eat, I would have believed you.

Norma is a scary thing

Sharksbaja - 5-16-2007 at 02:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
Anybody know the details of Shark Norma 029. The sportfishing fleet was not too happy about it. Why?


I think that's pretty obvious. Long-lining isn't fair.:(
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