BajaNomad - Loreto Bay - the June 2007 Version

Loreto Bay - the June 2007 Version

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Osprey - 6-20-2007 at 10:01 AM

While the world of marine conservation is trying mightily to offset/change the law that sells all the fish in the Sea of Cortez, while millions work hard every day to help the fishery, Sandy Dibble has written one piece after another praising Mexico and its leaders for their conservation moves, some recent, some very old news --- what's up with her?

wilderone - 6-20-2007 at 10:48 AM

"what's up with her?"
ask her directly. Maybe she'll look a little deeper. I know for a fact that the Union Tribune doesn't spend any money to allow their reporters to travel to do in-depth, investigative reports, so they must glean from other sources. Feed her what she needs to know.
Mexico is more than just Baja, and she reports on all issues, including politics (big assignment).

Baja_Girl - 6-20-2007 at 10:51 AM

Sandra D*ibble - ace reporter - so intuitive, so inquisitive, so skeptical - I tried to explain to her (at length, fairly and succintly) the problem with LBC - they have a dream - so do I - I have a dream that Russell Crowe will divorce his beautiful wife and marry me - but then there's reality - I'm cute, but probably not THAT cute (reasonable minds might differ) - so, anyway, Ms. D*ibble wrote back that there was "nothing new" to report on. Isn't that journalistic talent at its best? I'm gonna sell a car in her San Diego newspaper that gets 500,000 miles to the gallon. Maybe that will get her editor's attention.
D*ibble, indeed.

[Edited on 6-21-2007 by BajaNomad]

wilderone - 6-20-2007 at 11:08 AM

My friend at the UT says:
"Like most of us, she's over-worked - so doesn't have the time to get to all the stuff she'd like to do. And, as is the case with most of us, her bosses don't always approve every story she'd like to work on....I'm not up on these issues, but I can tell you absolutely that there's no way Sandra Dibble is in the pocket of Mexico developers or politicians.
The best way to reach her is probably by e-mail: sandra.dibble@uniontrib.com She works out of TJ. "

DENNIS - 6-20-2007 at 11:10 AM

Baja Girl Lisa -----

The SD Union would be the last place to sympathize with goings-on in Loreto. It is such a Mexico apologist fish wrapper because they don't want to offend their neighbor to the south.
Anyway, it's plain to see that you and their Mexico scribe didn't hit it off. No surprise to me but, her name is Dibble, just in case you want to fry her with the editor. You probably know that and I'm sorry for correcting you.

Loreto Bay Report

rentalsloreto - 6-20-2007 at 11:16 AM

If the Loreto Bay executives do read Baja Nomad, I would like to make the suggestion that they post a 'printer freindly' copy of their report on their website so that it take less ink to print out. Currently with all the 'fancies' it is a time-consuming and expensive document to print.

That's not my impression

Dave - 6-20-2007 at 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Baja Girl Lisa -----

The SD Union would be the last place to sympathize with goings-on in Loreto. It is such a Mexico apologist fish wrapper because they don't want to offend their neighbor to the south.

The Tribune slams Mexico every chance it gets. They seem to enjoy it. But they also know that the typical cross border tourists aren't aware. They ~~can't~~ don't read.

LB isn't a typical tourist concern. It's about making money. The Copleys aren't about to stifle that.

DENNIS - 6-20-2007 at 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

The Tribune slams Mexico every chance it gets.

No kidding? When's the last time you read anything about Hank Rhon's past in the Union?

Dave - 6-20-2007 at 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
No kidding? When's the last time you read anything about Hank Rhon's past in the Union?

Hank isn't a Mexican. He's a billionaire.

Baja_Girl - 6-20-2007 at 11:49 AM

...the point being...I took the time as per another Nomad's suggestion, wrote a thoughtful email to Sandra, offered more info...and since she had no problem dispensing the LBC propaganda - let's face it - LBC has a "press kit" that the journalists simply regurgitate - it wasn't a matter of "hitting it off" with her - blowing me off was more like it...and this is what I am reading happens over and over again with these so-called "journalists" - any do-do brain can regurgitate.

DENNIS - 6-20-2007 at 11:50 AM

When he's governor, that will improve.

oldhippie - 6-20-2007 at 02:37 PM

The San Diego U-T editors are pretty conservative and wouldn't intuitively take a green slant. That may be changing now that it's fashionable. And of course they don't want to offend neighboring Mexico, their advertisers are selling to a lot of Mexicans. Besides, not offending neighbors is usually the smart way to go, don't you think DENNIS?

What would be news for Ms. Dibble to report on would be some organized local resistance to rapid development complete with digital pictures.

Perhaps another angle would be the ownership of so much land and below ground resources by just a few aliens along the coast (from the planet Canada right?). The Mexican Constitution forbids that in some ways, which indicates the sentiment of the proud Mexican people and their forefathers towards aliens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Mexico#Article_... last line.

No doubt what Loreto Bay is doing is legal, they bought the land from under the locals' feet fair and square (after a secret deal with Fonatur officials and suitcases full of cash).

Loreto Bay is also going to be the owner of the sometime in the future maybe windmills that are going to produce all of the electricity that Loreto Bay needs. Of course the other run amuck developers that will follow if Loreto Bay does nothing else except sell condos will need to fire up some good old fashioned oil burners, but that's not to the point.

The point is that I think there is some good old fashioned nationalism fire that needs some fuel poured on it. Imagine, an alien corporation owning the land, the drinking water, and the power supply. You can't even work for them unless you speak English. And the aliens are so white they turn pink in the sun!!

Rise up! Revolt! Give Sandra something to report upon.

Are there going to be turnstiles at the entrance to Loreto Bay?

sandra d*ibble

flyfishinPam - 6-20-2007 at 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja_Girl
Sandra D*ibble - ace reporter - so intuitive, so inquisitive, so skeptical - I tried to explain to her (at length, fairly and succintly) the problem with LBC - they have a dream - so do I - I have a dream that Russell Crowe will divorce his beautiful wife and marry me - but then there's reality - I'm cute, but probably not THAT cute (reasonable minds might differ) - so, anyway, Ms. D*ibble wrote back that there was "nothing new" to report on. Isn't that journalistic talent at its best? I'm gonna sell a car in her San Diego newspaper that gets 500,000 miles to the gallon. Maybe that will get her editor's attention.
D*ibble, indeed.

I received no response to my lenghthy letter to her asking for an investigative report. she's owned

[Edited on 6-21-2007 by BajaNomad]

wilderone - 6-20-2007 at 04:48 PM

Well forget the Union Tribune. How 'bout 60 Minutes?

flyfishinPam - 6-20-2007 at 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
Well forget the Union Tribune. How 'bout 60 Minutes?

That's a great idea I was also thinking National Geographic

Don Alley - 6-20-2007 at 06:18 PM

Sandra D.

She's probably not going to report opinion, or recant previous reporting. You need to alert her to current "news."

Maybe something like:

"Booming Baja Resort Development Threatened As City Imposes Water Use Restrictions"

"Loreto Water Police on the Move, Citations Issued"

Baja_Girl - 6-20-2007 at 06:33 PM

Don,
but I wasn't trying to give her opinion - I was inviting her to "investigate" and fetter out fact vs. fiction. I wasn't being a brat (I know how to do that, too...) But Sandra D. wouldn't have it...**************************
******************************************

Anyway, re-publishing fairy tales and fantasies isn't "journalism" - and that's what she did...without question.

BTW, did you get a citation or know someone who did? Was this published in the local news - to kind of deflect away from the fact that the little boat ramp was going to be on the DL?

[Edited on 6-21-2007 by BajaNomad]

flyfishinPam - 6-20-2007 at 07:23 PM

I still see people watering the street, washing cars with hoses, no citations that I've heard about. In fact the only water restrictions I've heard about were right here on this board. Funny thing is that most people here don't know about these restrictions.

Baja_Girl - 6-20-2007 at 07:28 PM

Pam, that is funny...I snuck into town two weekends ago - a quick visit - and my host - bajabird - and his gardener - and other homeowners we talked to, were very much aware of it...they were laughing about "that will be the day I don't wash down my boat...I'd rather pay the fine."

Geez, I thought that Loreto was the world's greatest secret - but now I think it has little secrets all its own.

I thought about 60 minutes, BTW, this is far from over...

flyfishinPam - 6-20-2007 at 07:44 PM

OK I guess I'll ask lots of folks in Miramar if they are aware of the restrictions. Seriously I didn't know about them except for reading it here but we're off the water grid and conserve anyway because we have so little. The anuncias don't make it up our way too often (only during elections time)

JZ - 6-20-2007 at 08:16 PM

Having just read 7 pages of dis-orderly b-tching about LB it's obvious to me that that the folks who want to preserve Loreto need to get orgainized. You need a team and a leader, a strategy, legal representation, and a fund raising plan to fight them.

Baja_Girl - 6-20-2007 at 08:43 PM

JZ - thanks for the reminder of this...

A long, long time ago, a princess queen lawyer went to Loreto and spent the day on a boat and in the Sea of Cortez SCUBA diving. Dolphins showed the way. (But when the PQL jumped into the water to swim with the dolphins, they went away. :no

This was way back when there was an all-inclusive adults-only resort at Nopolo. It was an enchanted place. Loreto stole her heart forever.

While in Loreto, she saw a reference to an organization called

"Friends of Loreto." "Friend of the City of Loreto" "Friends of Loreto BCS"

???

Was it at the airport? Was it in a newspaper? Or in her wildest dreams?

Years pass. The PQL wants to organize a group to be the friends of loreto. Alas, has anyone heard of "Friends of Loreto" - or was the PQL just imagining this? Does this group exist? Who were the Friends of Loreto?

Maybe a place to start?

BajaNomad - 6-21-2007 at 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja_Girl
...has anyone heard of "Friends of Loreto" - or was the PQL just imagining this? Does this group exist? Who were the Friends of Loreto?

http://friendsofloreto.org

oldhippie - 6-21-2007 at 05:00 AM

I have this notion that there is a difference between investigative reporting and plain old reporting of newsworthy events. Investigative reporting is perhaps an expense that is devoted only to topics of interest to many of the paper's readers. I don't think a town 600 hundred miles or so south of San Diego meets that criteria for the Union-Tribune.

Maybe that's why the U-T's response was that nothing new has happened.

The subterfuge embodied by the the Loreto Bay marketing campaign is in my opinion newsworthy. They have taken the very essence of the environmental problems developers cause and used them as an argument to market their fantasy. Their low volume toilets are a good thing according to them, when actually toilets are not a good thing at all when considering the environment.

If they were redeveloping an area and replacing environmentally destructive devices with new devices that were less so, I'd give them 3 cheers. Come to Tijuana, please.

If they were developing needed new affordable housing in an eco-friendly way, I'd give them 3 cheers. Come to Tijuana, please.

But they're not doing any of that. They are simply catering to the almost rich and building a foreign vacation spot in a foreign land. They are not redeveloping a bad place into a better place nor are they developing something that is even close to being needed.

They are not being constructive, they are being destructive. That's the subterfuge.

The nouveau riche can really be annoying. :moon:

wilderone - 6-21-2007 at 08:41 AM

The non-profit Friends of Loreto organization is exactly what is needed in order to apply for grants from the Loreto Bay Foundation. They pretty much only grant funds to other non-profits. Friends of Loreto needs to organize themselves and apply for grants on a regular basis. Way too much wasted money flowing from the LB Foundation.

I think a collaborative effort to prepare a presentation to submit to 60 Minutes is a must. I think the "sustainable" development issue is ripe for dissection. Developers: Weapons of mass destruction wrapped in a "sustainability" package.
LB Co. exemplifies the conundrum -- for instance, they state: “The principles of New Urbanism inspired the planning and design of The Villages of Loreto Bay. New Urbanism is an international movement to reform the design of cities and neighborhoods to create better places to live. It strives to be the revival of our lost art of place-making, a move away from automobile dependence and urban sprawl and a return to the way communities have been built for centuries around the world. New Urbanism produces a town like those great villages in Europe and old Mexico.”

IN FACT, the “great villages in Europe and old Mexico” are full of Europeans and Mexicans, while the Village at Loreto Bay will be filled with couples from Scottsdale and Vancouver. No children walking to school (no school!), no teenagers hanging out at the sports fields, no discos, no tortillaria, no panaderia, no families going to the church on the corner, no open markets, nobody traveling to a job. No garages full of boats, fishing gear, kayaks, diving gear, gardening supplies – no garages! And what could exemplify urban sprawl more clearly than the Villages of Loreto Bay – high density units strung 3 miles along the coast south of the town of Loreto.

That is urban sprawl -- and the development is not sustainable to this day. 60 Minutes could rip them apart.

Baja_Girl - 6-21-2007 at 10:29 AM

Everyone should view:

www.friendsofloreto.org -

and if you do nothing else, maybe try to help this charity with a few dollars. I have donated recreational items to various organizations in Loreto...and the appreciation expressed back has been tremendous.

but, alas, I digress...I will think more about the need to organize. JZ is absolutely right.

I have "U2U'd" some folks about coming to have dinner with me...if you are in Loreto on July 10th, and would like to meet - please U2U me for details.

tu amiga
lisa marie

Cypress - 6-21-2007 at 12:33 PM

Why would anyone buy into a housing project with no water, no sewage disposal, no parking, no this and no that.

The answer is "No! Don't do it".

bancoduo - 6-21-2007 at 02:06 PM

Sounds like Bagdad.

oldhippie - 6-21-2007 at 04:12 PM

"Developers: Weapons of mass destruction wrapped in a "sustainability" package."

SUBTERFUGE!!

Does this fit?

"Over the last 30 years, as environmentalism has slowly shifted from fringe to fact of life, the definition of “green” has morphed into a hip, educated social identity, and a public relations tool. “The idea is to advertise where you’re weakest, and the companies that have the worst problems spend the most money to massage their reputations,” says Sheldon Rampton, of the Center for Media and Democracy, which runs SourceWatch, an online newsletter that compares the claims of companies with their actual actions. "

http://www.sourcewatch.org/

I found this little gem while researching exactly what propaganda is. I've called the LB marketing drivel propaganda and I wanted to be sure of myself. Turns out they are using a classic propaganda technique in all their advertising. And it is so blatant. See one of the nifty angles they are playing is that they are selling Mexican real estate to Americans and Canadians. Their advertising doesn't need to follow any kind of "truth" regulations.

Anyway:

"Transfer is a device by which the propagandist carries over the authority, sanction, and prestige of something we respect and revere to something he would have us accept. "

The something we respect is mother nature, the something to be accepted is massive development.

http://www.propagandacritic.com/articles/ct.fc.transfer.html

oldhippie - 6-21-2007 at 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
See one of the nifty angles they are playing is that they are selling Mexican real estate to Americans and Canadians.

That's a tough sentence, it was my Jimmy Cagney impersonation:

See, ya see, doncha see tough guy, one of the nifty angles they are playing is that they are selling Mexican real estate to Americans and Canadians. Ya see? Yeah.

Sorry folks, this is just my notepad for Oldhippie's View from the Left column on Lisa Marie's website.

Cypress - 6-21-2007 at 04:48 PM

oldhippie. :lol:

Yea, I see! :yes:

oldhippie - 6-21-2007 at 04:55 PM

hence they can lie through their gold crowned broken teeth and their singl malt scotch soaked breath,

see, ya see, docha see. They're no good, see. Listen to me!

flyfishinPam - 6-22-2007 at 04:45 PM

Lisa count me in. See you in a few weeks!

Stickers - 6-22-2007 at 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress

Why would anyone buy into a housing project with no water, no sewage disposal, no parking, no this and no that.

Simply to speculate for future profit by merely flipping it to the next chump that stops in Loreto for a visit.

oldhippie - 6-22-2007 at 06:04 PM

The greater fool theory.

capn.sharky - 6-23-2007 at 01:18 PM

Loreto Bay sucks...always has and always will. Period.

oldhippie - 6-25-2007 at 04:45 PM

capn.sharky, maybe it's the pumps sucking water that you're hearing.

A while back I explained that Loreto will be a great diving destination because, due to global warming, scuba divers will be able to sit at "Founders Village" patio tables and spear fish.

Naturally there were nomads who questioned the idea that sea level properties are threatened by inconvenient truths.

Well...........................

In San Diego sea level increases are going to be interesting. From Sunday's paper:

"But even a modest increase paints a doomsday path of devastation: Point Loma would become an island and Lindbergh Field would need seaplanes.
Mission Beach would submerge into Mission Bay. North Island and Coronado would morph to a soggy mess as waves lap over much of the Crown Isle."

So we can rename "Founders Village" to "Flounders Village"

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/features/20070624-9999-lz...

GO GLOBAL WARMING

bancoduo - 6-25-2007 at 04:56 PM

In other words it will return to its natural state. :bounce:

well maybe , but.....

capt. mike - 6-25-2007 at 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capn.sharky
Loreto Bay sucks...always has and always will. Period.

i just got their latest promo sales glossy/pkg and the new DVD, its very well done.
not my cup o' tequila - too much built in density, but i'll tell you for sure -
they are dead serious about this project, are VERY WELL funded, have Fonatur strongly behind them all the way and could give a ratz arse about detractors because they have the sales and HP to prove the deal. and it is a 10 year plan afterall so global economical stuff could problematicALLY give it levels of heart burn i guess.

like i say, i would n't buy there, i am trailer trash type folks.
but i have a friend in phx, he's loaded $$ and bought a nice unit, and LOVES it. and loves the concept and his neighbors.

guess i'll get to visit him this fall.
Their Sales lady will comp my stay if i buzz over in july. i told her there isn't enuff AC in the whole town to get me there walking around Loreto in july or August! good luck!
funny.....offer doesn't extend to october....go figure! well, that's marketeers fur ya!

capn.sharky - 6-25-2007 at 07:32 PM

Capn. Mike you sure hit the nail on the head about the heat in July, August and Sept. in Loreto. I don't know how the Mexicans without air conditioning do it. I have noticed they sweat just like me when it gets hot. As for your friend in Phoenix ---ever notice the guys with the big bucks seem to buy the worst things and then cover their a-- by telling everyone how happy they are with what they got. When his house is laying all over the beach, we'll see how he likes it. Does he own a home in Tahoe too?

jerry - 6-25-2007 at 07:58 PM

yes mike ever notice how the guys with the big bucks are a lot stupider then us poo folk?? :bounce:

Roberto - 6-25-2007 at 08:27 PM

Folks (especially from this board) have been predicting the demise of this place for a while now. Yet, these guys seem to keep goin'. Now, I'm not into planned "authentic Mexican villages" :lol:

, but I'm starting to think you folks are "holwin' in the wind".

And, the same applies for the Escalera Nautica (Escalera Stupida it's been called). This one's going to happen too. Maybe not the land bridge, maybe not to the extent of the original plan, but it WILL happen. And, you know what - it's not all bad. As a boater, some places to refuel along the Pacific coast, along with some contacts for emergencies might be appreciated. Right now, the ones who are not affected by these shortcomings are the multi-millionaires. Most every one else need not apply. Stick THAT in your pipe and smoke it.

I don't want it to change either, but some of you folks are just as arrogant as the planners of these monstrosities. And, why don't you look up "luddite" in the dictionary?

[Edited on 6-26-2007 by Roberto]

oldhippie - 6-26-2007 at 07:53 AM

Roberto,

Since we're giving each other vocabulary lessons, here's one for you:

defeatism - an attitude of accepting, expecting, or being resigned to defeat.

I'm strongly against this development and I'm not a Luddite. BTW, the word is capitalized. It comes from a man named Ludd.

DENNIS - 6-26-2007 at 08:03 AM

Oldenglishteacher ----------

I don't think adjectives, in the middle of a sentence, should be capitilized.

Ergo: luddite.

Paula - 6-26-2007 at 08:15 AM

Luddite is a noun.

DENNIS - 6-26-2007 at 08:18 AM

Luddite is an adjective.
Dictionary is a noun.

DENNIS - 6-26-2007 at 08:20 AM

Actually, it's both.

oldhippie - 6-26-2007 at 08:52 AM

Roberto,

I'd be all for a nice mid-sized marina with a modest hotel and shops to resupply boaters on their voyages. The Sea of Cortez is truly a watersportman's paradise.

What Loreto Bay is doing will pollute the environment, dry up the aquifers, and alienate the local population.

They are evil folks motivated soley by profit who are performing a modern Mexican land grab using greenwash propaganda. The area will be devastated. Take a look at Cabo San Lucas and see the future of Loreto.

[Edited on 6-26-2007 by oldhippie]

wilderone - 6-26-2007 at 09:00 AM

"Flounders Village" Ha!!! very funny
Escalera Nautica failed because it was not feasible, their supporting propaganda didn't pan out (the number of registered boats in Arizona were calculated in fer crissake), the planned private funding did not materialize and there were environmental concerns prompting opposition from that standpoint. During the subsequent years and to this day, alternative plans for "improved" marinas evolved instead, dictated more by a more gradual indication of actual need. Even so, with the designation of BOLA as a marine preserve, a huge marina will not materialize there, and I suspect that interests other than John McCarthy's - who is no longer at the helm - will become important factors to be dealt with. Puerto Escondido had been in the works for a long time, and with the LB development, its time finally came, but wasn't necessarily an element of Escalera Nautica success. Long story short, Escalera Nautica failed. And it's still a matter of time before we see LB's success. Lots of opposition, and more people are beginning to understand all the factors which will negatively affect the project, as well as LB's own lies - they will be hoisted on their own petard.

oldhippie - 6-26-2007 at 09:18 AM

Good point wilderone, Puerto Escondido is the area's marina. I guess there's no need for one in Loreto.

DENNIS - 6-26-2007 at 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Oldenglishteacher ----------

I don't think adjectives, in the middle of a sentence, should be capitilized.

Ergo: luddite.

Fortunately, there are agreed-upon rules for grammar so that language doesn't become total anarchy. As far as I know, this one of yours isn't one of them. Or rather, it's overridden by the adjective-derived-from-proper-name capitalization.

--Larry

Where does it say that, Larry? If you're willing to teach, I'm willing to learn..........and stand corrected.

DENNIS - 6-26-2007 at 12:36 PM

Never mind. I found it. Proper adjectives.

I stand corrected.

Cypress - 6-26-2007 at 12:41 PM

Adjectives? Those adjectives can contribute to some unusual situations.

Don't want any of 'em added to my rations, they can cause a variety of ailments.

DENNIS - 6-26-2007 at 12:44 PM

Yeah...... You have to read the labels.

capt. mike - 6-26-2007 at 12:46 PM

this thread would be more fun on 'ludes....... :wow:

the market will decide LBs fate ultimately. :light:

DENNIS - 6-26-2007 at 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
this thread would be more fun on 'ludes....... :wow:

If this thread got any more tranquil, it would ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZsnorkZZZZ

Baja_Girl - 6-26-2007 at 06:56 PM

...Stay tuned, my dears, Loreto Bay Company is SOOOO unhappy I have purchased www.loretobaycompany.org, etc...Hi Scott!!!
xoxo
Baja_Girl

PS - like, uh, even if a court ordered me to give these specific domains to LBC, its not as if I couldn't buy 100 more just like it...all I want is to disseminate the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth...I have no incentive or need to do otherwise!!!

[Edited on 6-27-2007 by Baja_Girl]

DENNIS - 6-26-2007 at 07:07 PM

Lisa ---

Is this going to be your south-of-the-border raison d'etre?
It may take away your tanning time but, a good tan isn't everything.

flyfishinPam - 6-26-2007 at 07:14 PM

No Dennis, Lisa's raison d'etre in Loreto is to win the Fishin for the Mission Tournament!!!! You go Girl!

Baja_Girl - 6-26-2007 at 07:15 PM

...Dennis, I love Loreto. I love it because I feel safe there, a young woman traveling alone, and because the people are so friendly and beautiful and kind. I love it because the water is crystal clear and I can dive and not see mounds of liter like I see in the waters near Hawaii...Loreto is special because there is no Staryucks or McDonalds or other junk-food containers lining the streets - as I found in the Florida Keys...I do not think that adding 6000 housing units bodes well for keeping Loreto (or any place) as safe and clean and sweet as it is.
...so, yes, it can easily be my raison d'etre - I have no economic interest in any of this - I just know that when I have felt broken on the inside (personal heartaches, etc.), Loreto is where I went to feel whole again. And I love it for that.

[Edited on 6-27-2007 by Baja_Girl]

DENNIS - 6-26-2007 at 07:24 PM

Lisa..Mi semi-nueva Nomada-----

With the strength you show, you are never alone. You have yourself. I'm sure that's pretty good company.
Give'm hell toots.

Roberto - 6-26-2007 at 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
Roberto,

Since we're giving each other vocabulary lessons, here's one for you:

defeatism - an attitude of accepting, expecting, or being resigned to defeat.

I'm strongly against this development and I'm not a Luddite. BTW, the word is capitalized. It comes from a man named Ludd.

Thank you for that information, oldhippie - I had NO idea. You are obviously a man of superior intellect and education. :lol:

BTW, to be a defeatist, wouldn't you have to be in the "battle"?

Roberto - 6-26-2007 at 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
Long story short, Escalera Nautica failed.

So this is your opinion, right? Look I want to see it fail too, but it will not - once again, not in the original form, maybe, but parts of it WILL be implemented.

You do realize that the development at Puerto Escondido is part of it, right?

oldhippie - 6-27-2007 at 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto
Thank you for that information, oldhippie - I had NO idea. You are obviously a man of superior intellect and education.

Roberto, no problem and thank you for the compliment!

wilderone - 6-27-2007 at 10:05 AM

Puerto Escondido is not part of Escalera Nautica.

"Loreto, Ixtapa-Zihuatanejo, Los Cabos, and Cancún were Mexico’s emblematic tourism projects in the 1970s [planned by FONATUR]. Plans for Loreto stalled because of its remoteness from central Mexico and the paucity of public and private investment. As far back as 1976, Fonatur planned Loreto as the main residential area for the local population, Nopoló as the hotel, tourist and real-estate area, and Puerto Escondido as the harbor. The “Subregional Urban Development Program for the Loreto-Nopoló-Notrí-Puerto Escondido-Ligüi-Ensenada Blanca Region” picks up where that original plan left off. Of several possible scenarios proposed for 2025, the one that was selected purports to allow for “balanced and decentralized growth, with support villages, creating attractive areas for urban development outside of Loreto and Nopoló, locating new infrastructure in those areas to meet the needs of the population in Ensenada Blanca, Ligüi, Puerto Escondido and Notrí.”
http://americas.irc-online.org/pdf/papers/0703Gulf7.pdf

Boomtown Loreto: A City on the Move!

Don Alley - 6-28-2007 at 06:32 AM

Baja_Girl - 6-28-2007 at 06:38 AM

Thank goodness there is a nice watch dog to make sure the ambulance doesn't get vandalized or anything.

Thanks, Don, looking forward to meeting you on July 10th.

Fiesta de la Baja Girl y su amigas!

Phil S - 8-19-2007 at 12:48 PM

Lisa. A thought here on your "campaign". If you should become successful in your project, I'd be concerned of your 'health' in Loreto. Have you thought about "what if" regarding your daughters mother's future? You would be damaging many a job workers employment down there. A worker who is trying to support himself & his family. Now, not all the workers I've met over the pat three years are God Fearing Christians. Like all civilizations, there is an element of "people to be feared" in every culture. If for any reason you were successful, how would you think the folks that work at the airport would feel when they got laid off because the number of flights ceased because some lady named Lisa caused them to lose their job. How about when you go into the grocery store, and your known as the lady that 'broke' Loreto. Think you'd feel save walking the streets at night anymore????? Having been a crusader for most of my life, I took on one project that turned against me. And that was one regarding "street people". Backfired. It didn't get them "off the street". It got me threats, intimidation, phone calls at night, knocks on the door at night that I didn't answer. My life didn't get threatened, but had I kept up the campaign, it might have. Suddenly, my "need" wasn't as important as the bodily harm I feared for. Rattled my cage. Have you thought through this completely????? I would think that maybe you should be working agianst the San Bruno project, as it hasn't broken ground yet, and that's the same water you drink when you are in Loreto. Oh yes. Conchita might be a little upset with you also, as you might cause her some financial problems. Let's see. Maybe Francisco at El Ray Taco might not want to wait on you anymore. Cafe Ole relies on "customers". Your campaign might cause them some problems. etc. etc. etc. etc.

edinnopolo - 8-19-2007 at 01:21 PM

Hey Flip,
What are you smoking :?:

I want some of that

DENNIS - 8-19-2007 at 01:26 PM

Is that what's happening in Loreto? Everybody lives in a state of fear if they don't tow the company line?

backninedan - 8-19-2007 at 01:38 PM

Phil, takes your meds bud, the voices are taking control.

Re-done Golf Course gets water on the Green

Juan del Rio - 8-19-2007 at 01:39 PM

I had to drive from San Somewhere to the Loreto Airport on Thursday. I noticed that the re-done golf course was starting to get water on a few of the greens.

SJ 8 19 07 804X.jpg - 33kB

gnukid - 8-19-2007 at 01:43 PM

Phil, Why are you surmising who might threaten Lisa? Phil?

Those who lead from an ethical, moral and logical viewpoint are appreciated for their efforts. If the efforts attenuate rapid growth development slightly they will be appreciated because that means the effort was correct and justified.

Phil, for you to suggest hypothetical threats is more than inappropriate to this process. In doing so, clearly your words connote a likely threat and your behavior is suspect. Your note shall be put on record, along with the evidence of your login and ip address and you shall likely be considered for having instigating a threat to a person. Your words shall not be taken likely as they demonstrate your thought process.

Your comments will be brought to the attention of the Mexican and US authorities.

New Loreto Airport additions

Juan del Rio - 8-19-2007 at 01:45 PM

There are now these large posts that will have billboards on them in the coming weeks. It also looks like that they have made progress on the new Terminal Building to the North of the existing terminal.

SJ 8 19 07 810X.jpg - 32kB

Stickers - 8-19-2007 at 09:24 PM

Why all the rumors of a new Loreto airport in another location?

.

Baja_Girl - 8-20-2007 at 07:18 AM

I just got back from Roatan Island - Honduras, so I need to take some time to catch up with these postings.

I find it hard to believe that the townsfolk of Loreto could be so utterly dense and short-sighted to think that Loreto Bay is good for their town.

It competes with their economy, it pollutes their environment, and worse of all - more Americans means more American fastfood and fastfood means GARBAGE all over the place...if there is anything I HATE is garbage in the ocean. When I was in Honduras, I found Coke bottles floating in otherwise gorgeous water. I started picking them out of the ocean - one little person won't make a difference, I know - and the Dive master said "why nearly drown yourself for a Coke bottle" - I said "because its my ocean, too, my world, I love it and I wouldn't have empty Coke bottles floating around my backyard...."

yes, some people will not like the truth, but the truth is, Loreto Bay is only good for the developers. Coke bottles floating around the Sea of Cortez - makes me nauseous to think about it. Yes, Phil, staving off the damage is worth being threatened, the potential harm to Loreto is much greater than the potential harm to myself...and I daresay, some coward threatening me would get no where. I'm not invincible, I'm just a poor target.

Don Alley - 8-20-2007 at 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Stickers
Why all the rumors of a new Loreto airport in another location?

.

What I have heard is that an ejido donated or will donate property north of Loreto, at San Juan, for a possible new airport. That would make sense for the ejido as it would greatly increase their property values.

Second, the existing airport uses valuable coastal real estate.

Third, the huge development planned for San Bruno would love to see the airport moved closer to them.

Third, if Loreto's airport begins getting massive numbers of landings/takeoffs, local Loreto residents may want to see it move.

But my take, especially with the new construction at the airport, is that any such move to a new location is not going to happen soon. Fine with me, I like the airport where it is, at least for now.

The thing about development here is that there is no news source. You can't pick up a local paper, or turn on the TV, and see "New terminal planned for Loreto airport" long before work starts. Unless you have a need to know, you only get rumors, if that. Sometimes important development decisions are made privately and the locals are kept in the dark

Is that strange?

Sharksbaja - 8-20-2007 at 12:40 PM

Ok, who exactly does know the proposals on the table besides Grogan, Butterworth and myriad tight-lipped officionadas.
It is interesting Don that with all the wisdom and info gleaned here by Nomadic foot-soldiers we'd be in the know.
Let me seee, how many units are complete? I am trying to figure out if there are enough toilets flushing to sustain that new golf green and fairway. :lol:

I don't think so. How can they accomplish their(LBC) goals and promises when you put a cart before the burro? Isn't effluent the primary source for the developments adjunct plans?
I smell sumpin' fishy. :rolleyes:

Inquiring minds need to know!

Cypress - 8-20-2007 at 01:14 PM

You've got to be a hardcore golfer to wade around in poop to get a chance at a hole-in-one.

Another viewpoint

cajhawk - 8-27-2007 at 06:46 PM

I admit a bias in that I have spent much time in the real estate industry on both sides of the border. This discussion occurs everywhere. Ex pats hate that developer changes their slice of heaven. Developer makes promises. Ex Pats think all of the promises are lies, developer doesn't fulfill all promises. Same stuff. I am not an apologist for Loreto Bay and don't believe all of the hype, but I'll put in my 2 cents on 3 things.

1) FONATUR said that there was plenty of water for LB. LB either doesn't believe them, doesn't want a PR nightmare or needs a secure water supply because they have planned and are bidding on an RO project. Similar to ones in Cabo, these are about the size of a railroad car. LB is not going to drain all of the water in Loreto. It would be a nightmare for them to sell their homes even if you think they are evil.

2) Wind farm on west coast is not being done by Loreto Bay. They are a big player, but some energy company is doing it (Conergy?)with the backing of other municipalities as well. LB will be a big customer, but is building it. Both LB and Conergy are also Mexican Corporations, so the lease talk doesn't make much sense.

3) Paspalum grass is the only way to go if you have a golfcourse going on in Baja. Less water, takes brackish water, less pesticide (salt water kills some of them). Not quite as nice as the grass used on courses in Cabo, but much better for water use. New course in San Felipe using it now as well.

This is what I know about the discussion thus far. Many good points are being made here, but I wanted to clarify the stuff I thought was just inaccurate. The good news is that at least it is only one developer for that big area instead of 3 or 4 -- now THAT is a nightmare!

[Edited on 8-28-2007 by cajhawk]

Crusoe - 8-27-2007 at 07:15 PM

Cajhawk......Can you please tell us why we need more golf courses in Loreto? thanx ++C++

capt. mike - 8-28-2007 at 06:21 AM

CAjhawk - are you a KU alumni? ROCK CHALK!!

i like your points here - fair and balanced.

no one likes to wait for a Tee time. :lol:

Don Alley - 8-28-2007 at 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by cajhawk
This is what I know about the discussion thus far. Many good points are being made here, but I wanted to clarify the stuff I thought was just inaccurate. The good news is that at least it is only one developer for that big area instead of 3 or 4 -- now THAT is a nightmare!

[Edited on 8-28-2007 by cajhawk]

Loreto Bay, 5,000 units.
Villas Groups, 2500 units
San Bruno Paraiso 6000+ units
Golden Beach

...and a "Master Plan" allowing for much more.

Just thought I'd clarify some stuff I thought was just inaccurate.

wilderone - 8-28-2007 at 09:03 AM

Thanks for your input. You proceed on the premise that "Ex pats hate that developer changes their slice of heaven. Developer makes promises. Ex Pats think all of the promises are lies, developer doesn't fulfill all promises." You are totally missing THE POINT. Which is that we opposers of LB believe this region of Baja - as with many very special regions in Baja - should be left alone for the intrinsic benefit of its naturalness for everyone - expat, citizen and future generation and future tourist - to enjoy. The LB project is too large to make sense. And LB does lie.
"LB is not going to drain all of the water in Loreto." Says you? oh - ok, then.

And you have not addressed the POINT of an uneeded golf course which will become more and more salt laden, use pesticides - all which will flow into the estuaries and the gulf because where else would all that salt and toxin build-up go?

And of course they don't want a PR nightmare. Why wasn't an RO facility part of the INITIAL PLAN? WHY? Because it wasn't. Speaks volumes.

"The good news is that at least it is only one developer?" Are you kidding? They plan 6,000 units - a village - a 5-mile footprint along a coastline - urban sprawl - couched with "sustainable" lies. Such utter crap.

Mike - I thought you didn't care - fair and balanced? HA! go away.

Rbuttal

cajhawk - 8-28-2007 at 09:29 AM

I knew I'd catch some flak for my post. I DO understand the point that you are making, but you are also agreeing with me. You don't want ANY project there at the site of Loreto Bay. That isn't going to happen, mainly because FONATUR put in the infrastructure that is there now. You can definitely argue about scope and planning, but it will be built at some point just due to inertia.
The golf course was already there, so the remake of the golf course is not a NEW golf course per se. I don't think Baja needs another golf course, but they are only changing one that is currently there.

The RO wasn't part of the original plan because FONATUR declared that there was enough water for almost 200,000 people in Loreto in the aquifer. That isn't LB's fault; that was the hydrologist's report that worked for FONATUR.

The "area" I referred to was LB, not all of Loreto. Once again if you think 3 huge projects are a nightmare, try 4 or 5 developers at EACH of those sites. I have no crystal ball, but I would be surprised if Fadesa's project ever comes to fruition. Spanish companies have a long history of promises and no action in Mexico. The Villa Group on the other hand South of town has a distinct possibility.

IMHO I believe that if you put down everything about the LB development that your concerns get trivialized as just another NIMBY or CAVE (Citizen Against Virtually Everything). LB is being built, so work to make it better for Loreto at this point. You can't turn back the clock.

flyfishinPam - 8-28-2007 at 09:37 AM

Thank you for your perspectives they are appreciated and help me to understand things and question things too. That is good.

Quote:

Originally posted by cajhawk
1) FONATUR said that there was plenty of water for LB. LB either doesn't believe them, doesn't want a PR nightmare or needs a secure water supply because they have planned and are bidding on an RO project. Similar to ones in Cabo, these are about the size of a railroad car. LB is not going to drain all of the water in Loreto. It would be a nightmare for them to sell their homes even if you think they are evil.

Do you care to add your three centavos on the fact that the new development to the north has directed the pipes from the aquafer directly to their project, San Bruno the FADESA project?

Don´t you think when you consider ALL of the proposed projects combined that our water table WILL definately suffer?

Here´s what I am concerned about : the San Juan Londó aquafer dries up (or worse, see water issues in a March thread by Don Alley), we have to go to De-sal, great.... then

who´s going to pay for it?
How will it be built and how much power will it require?
Where will the waste be deposited?
How much will the water cost to the people of town?

Do you know that is is a FACT not an estimate that for every built unit or room (from statistics of Las Cabos and Cancun), that TWENTY Mexican persons come into the area to support it?

Lets do the math JUST for Loreto Bay:
(from the journal La Jornada: "Loreto Bay Company, de capital canadiense, fue la primera en tomar la palabra a Fonatur, con un proyecto de mil 600 cuartos de hotel, 6 mil 374 viviendas, 4 mil 571 villas residenciales, campo de golf, marina, spa, centro de pesca deportiva, restaurantes e instalaciones comerciales, recreativas y culturales." thread and link to article here => http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=22961&pag...)

OK back to the MATH for >Loreto Bay: from the above article in La Jornada the completed Loreto Bay will have 600 hotel rooms + 4,571 villas + 6,374 houses = 11,545 units...now multiply that by 20 and you get 230,900 new persons in Loreto, plus those apready here, plus those who will come as a result of other projects.....final number is anyones guess.

Have you ever been to Loreto? ever spend time here?
If the answer to these questions is yes then how the heck can you say with a straight face and truthfully that this kind of economic stimulation is good for this municipio? our natural resources cannot sustain it and neither can our man made infrastructure including electric, sewer, streets, medical, etc.

Always remember that Loreto Bay is planning for their "sustainable" village only and they are not considering the additional 230K+ persons that will be residing nearby to support their "sustainable" village.

Yes the water issue is the biggest problem and is among other problems that growth creates. The water issue will become news that is important for future investors to consider and hopefully this important fact will overshadow the propogandist "news" that´s being fed to you north of the Mex border now.

To those in favor of this project I have no disrespect for your motives but please take a look into the future, when there will literally be nowhere for the workers that will support your lifestyle to live, when there will be not enough accessable water (this is already a reality), when there will be insufficient infrastructure to support this population. The ordinary people will suffer, their jobs will be low paying service industry jobs and there will be very little opportunity for the majority of them. How long do you think the people will continue to live this way? Another thing to consider is the history of Mexico, all investors should read it and understand their risks.

Quote:

2) Wind farm on west coast is not being done by Loreto Bay. They are a big player, but some energy company is doing it (Conergy?)with the backing of other municipalities as well. LB will be a big customer, but is building it. Both LB and Conergy are also Mexican Corporations, so the lease talk doesn't make much sense.

I am not up on energy produced by wind farms and have not had time to do the calculations required for me to understand the input and output of energy produced by the same equipment they are planning, but..

Can a wind farm sustain not only a village of say 10,000 but the city next to it and its outlying areas of 250,000+ persons?
Is this possible, how much will this equipment cost and how large a farm will be required?
What will be the difficulties of getting this power to the eastern side of the peninsula where the demand is?
Is there really a constant, year round supply of wind to generate the required electricity that will be able to sufficiently supply Loreto as well as LB and the other development projects being planned?
Who will pay for a wind farm that can generate enough electricity to not only supply the "sustainable" village but its environs which support most of the population placing the demand?

I do know that it is a fact that in Loreto we get brown outs severtal times a day and blackouts of at least several minutes on a daily basis. This was wreaking havoc on my electronics until I put UPS backups on ALL of them. When I moved here in 1999 we had blackouts only when a car hit a power pole or once in awhile when there was too much demand on the system in the summer, and of course during and after weather events which is understandible, but since this project has started electrical outages have increased tremenoudsly and they´re really only in building stages now.

So who pays for my dead appliances??
I´ve replaced mine but can my Mexicano neighbors do the same so easily?

Quote:

3) Paspalum grass is the only way to go if you have a golfcourse going on in Baja. Less water, takes brackish water, less pesticide (salt water kills some of them). Not quite as nice as the grass used on courses in Cabo, but much better for water use. New course in San Felipe using it now as well.

I have no problem continuing with the excisting golf course as it was here for decades but please remember it was hardly ever watered and was brown more often than green so the demand on the water supply for it was very minimal.

As for the Paspalum grass I think this is another on the long list of propoganda tools being used by LB.
A link for this miracle groundcover => http://www.paspalumgrass.com/
funny now the last time I read over that link there were temperature, humidity, rainfall and pH tolerances listed and they´re no longer there. Here´s another link with these specs =>
http://www.fao.org/ag/agP/agpc/doc/Gbase/data/pf000288.htm

while I won´t go into detail, when looking through the list of specs for this species note those listed for, high temperature range, saline tolerance (everything I am seeing says it is saline INTOLERANT), pH levels, pests, diseases and one that I find interesting Fertliizer Requirements: "Paspalum needs high fertility and responds to a basic complete fertilizer mixture and subsequent dressings of nitrogen"

This grass will perform no better than the bermuda grass that it is replacing. Neither of these grasses is a native species. I read the link for this grass that was supplied earlier in the thread and I believe that my training allows me to read and understand fully the performance of this grass. It will require more water than the specs Loreto Bay will present and it will require more insecticides, more fungicides and more fertilizers simply because it will be in an extreme environment for its tolerance levels. Please go and read for yourself I am not making this up.

You see LB feeds us these little "news" clippings to prove how wonderful a project they are and to make you feel good and put the idea into your head to buy their product. another example of this is the dehumidifer machine press release "water from the thin air" that can´t even out perform a 1 ton mini split air conditioner that costs less than 1/4 of its price heres the link to that thread http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=25587, and the "rebuilding of an estuary" that was maybe there a few centuries ago and has since been buried by storm activity. This will have absolutely NO circulation when complete and can become a potential health hazard in the future...know what the LB ingineros call this place? not Agua Viva but Dengue Row!

Quote:

This is what I know about the discussion thus far. Many good points are being made here, but I wanted to clarify the stuff I thought was just inaccurate. The good news is that at least it is only one developer for that big area instead of 3 or 4 -- now THAT is a nightmare!

Thanks for your clarificastions they are appreciated but I just had to add my two cents as well, as a person who has lived here full time for many years and has married, birthed two children in Loreto and has a business here.

If you look at posts in past years I was very much in favor of this project because the town of Loreto badly needed economic stimulation. At the time LB was announced at a Hotel Association meeting, we had been already been hit by Hurricane Ignacio, then Hurricane Marty and Hurricanes Nora and Omar almost collided directly over us. Humidity and heat levels throughout October were unprecidented and there was nowhere in town to buy mosquito repellent. I lost a daughter in law who was eight and a half months pregnant to Dengue Hemoragic fever, baby was still born and until that point for some reason the town had not been sprayed for mosquito abatement as it had in years past. Tourism was waaaay down. We had major airlines cancel flights and businesses were closing left and right.

So I had no problem with a development project but I was a bit frightened by the scale which we were being told was going to be 4-5000 homes. Of course the project just kept getting bigger and bigger. Then the water issue became a major turning point in my personal decision to act contrary to large scale projects in our delicate area. No, I do not have an "unwillingness to accept change" attitude and I am not completely against development only against irresponsible and deceptive development and sales.

For reasons stated earlier by Don Alley who said something to the affect of "Loreto is a small town without the experience to handle what´s coming our way", this is very true. The fact is that for the most part the people of Loreto are not educated in such a way as to understand the consequences of this growth. Their level of education generally does not go beyond the 6th grade. Its time to educate them. How could you expect a population to make decisions without all the facts in front of them? How could YOU as a potential investor to this area make an informed, intelligent financial decision without all of the information?

The people are mad, there´s feces running down the center of our streets and its been this way for months. They just don´t know what to do. They´re used to broken promises and handouts of "bags of cement if you vote for our party".

Well I´ve typed enough, but this is from the perspective of a resident and her family and friends and neighbors of Loreto who will be and are directly affected by these changes.

flyfishinPam - 8-28-2007 at 09:43 AM

testing. I just made a very long post and it disappeared. Even though it states I am the last to have made a post that post cannot be accessed! thinking if I post this it will reset the system somehow.

this technique worked!

[Edited on 8-28-2007 by flyfishinPam]

Minnow - 8-28-2007 at 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Phil, Why are you surmising who might threaten Lisa? Phil?

Those who lead from an ethical, moral and logical viewpoint are appreciated for their efforts. If the efforts attenuate rapid growth development slightly they will be appreciated because that means the effort was correct and justified.

Phil, for you to suggest hypothetical threats is more than inappropriate to this process. In doing so, clearly your words connote a likely threat and your behavior is suspect. Your note shall be put on record, along with the evidence of your login and ip address and you shall likely be considered for having instigating a threat to a person. Your words shall not be taken likely as they demonstrate your thought process.

Your comments will be brought to the attention of the Mexican and US authorities.

Phil was writing on personal experience. I don't see anything on the level of a threat. I am no fan of LB but comments like this certainly put me off some of the so called eco people. Now Kid, your post it threatening. Your accusations are preposterous, and you need to censure yourself.

Minnow - 8-28-2007 at 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja_Girl
I just got back from Roatan Island - Honduras, so I need to take some time to catch up with these postings.

I find it hard to believe that the townsfolk of Loreto could be so utterly dense and short-sighted to think that Loreto Bay is good for their town.

It competes with their economy, it pollutes their environment, and worse of all - more Americans means more American fastfood and fastfood means GARBAGE all over the place...if there is anything I HATE is garbage in the ocean. When I was in Honduras, I found Coke bottles floating in otherwise gorgeous water. I started picking them out of the ocean - one little person won't make a difference, I know - and the Dive master said "why nearly drown yourself for a Coke bottle" - I said "because its my ocean, too, my world, I love it and I wouldn't have empty Coke bottles floating around my backyard...."

yes, some people will not like the truth, but the truth is, Loreto Bay is only good for the developers. Coke bottles floating around the Sea of Cortez - makes me nauseous to think about it. Yes, Phil, staving off the damage is worth being threatened, the potential harm to Loreto is much greater than the potential harm to myself...and I daresay, some coward threatening me would get no where. I'm not invincible, I'm just a poor target.

I don't believe I have ever seen a more ethno centric view of the world. Pick up the trash, that is great. I do it too. I certainly don't blame the Coke makers. Personal choice is exactly that.

The pressure you must feel to save the Mexican people from themselves, the Americans from their corporations, and Loreto from LB must be intense. Answer me this though.

Was the amount of consumables you used in your trip to Honduras, and polluted the Earth with, justified by picking a few Coke bottles from the Sea? If your answer is no, you really are not helping anything are you.

According to your view of the world we would all be better off if we just stayed locked in our houses, or better yet, put a bullet in our head. :lol:

oldhippie - 8-28-2007 at 11:09 AM

I've lost count, is this round 3 or 4 of the Loreto debate?

Pam, Lencho, anyone - have the specs for the desal filtration plant been published yet? I'd like to see them.

No point talking about the wind power idea until there is some evidence that it's going to be built. Supposedly it will be in the GN area. Has anybody seen or heard anything? The Econergy website hasn't published anything new.

Loreto Bay has been real quiet on the Internet lately. Either there's something going on that's causing them to be quiet or they're preparing a winter advertising blitz. Hopefully the former, probably the latter.

Pam, what's going on that's causing raw sewage in the streets?

[Edited on 8-28-2007 by oldhippie]

capt. mike - 8-28-2007 at 11:59 AM

good amiga Wilderone sayeth............

"Mike - I thought you didn't care - fair and balanced? HA! go away"

To where? What does care have to do with it? cajhawk has made some real sense here. a level of pragmatism heretofore missing over this emotionally based discourse.

uh oh, Fox news is coming on, gotta go see the right beat up on the left, what fun!

flyfishinPam - 8-28-2007 at 12:02 PM

The raw sewage is being caused by "improvements" in the infrastructure. After the first of the year (January 2007) Calles Juarez, Salvitierra and Hidalgo (the main streets in town) were unpaved (this is what I call it, the pavement was removed). There are many rumors that people buy into and I am hearing this one consistently;

the state government promised to repave these main thrououghfares in order to reinforce the concretes for the increased volume of traffic we expect as a result of the growth. now that the streets were going to be unpaved the city decided to re-do the water and sewage lines before they were repaved. sounds reasonable enough. unfortunately only less than 30% of the streets have been repaved and the rest are still waiting, yet they continue to tear up whats left!

rumor is and it may or may not be true, that the state government has with-held funding for repaving so that Loreto will vote their party (PRD) instead of the current party (PAN) in the next election. so that´s why we have chit floating down the street!

the street in front of my store (the very center of town) was unpaved day after easter and they keep telling us it will be done by, may 31, july, august, before the rains, before the Loreto festivities, before hell freezes over... promises unkept. now the city has said that they will repave the main streets in the center of town, hidalgo and juarez but that was over a month ago and still, no pavement. people are literally getting sick, doctors are noticing (a very good man has a blood infection may be typhoid!), but read the news (Sudcaliforniano) and everyone´s soooo happy, 80+% approval rating for the state governor, 85+% approval rating for the local government how can this be true?? speak to the real people who are living here they are sick and tired of it.

I have lost my sense of humor over this but know we have been very lucky because when our street was unpaved my espresso business seeason was just winding down and my fishing business was just starting to pick up. The fishermen are more understanding of the condition of the streets than the winter and spring seasonal tourists. but I did lose business, sales and inventory to this just like everyone else here. Now that my fishing season is basically through i have decided to close my shop early. usually I close only in September but I closed in the middle last week and will re open on the 8th of October. Hoping that our street will be done by then but I won´t hold my breath.

in the chamber of commerce meetings, people seem to be protecting the local government and placing blame on the state. But I wonder why the local gov would allow this work to commence in the first place if they did not have the funds in their "hands"? I don´t think any collective body of government can be this stupid and it seems all too "fishy". Loreto has received the short end of the stick for many years but this time its REALLY short and businesses are hurting and closing at an alarming rate when they should be thriving instead.

The streets are basically undriveable and their routes change on a daily basis without notice. There are accidents caused by this work, there is private property damage caused by this work. the less than an inch of rainfall on sunday 19 Sept caused some nasty hazards throughout town that I have on film because nobody would believe it otherwise. god help us if we get more rain now. its a bad combinatiion for those who live here and the tourists think it is disgusting. many will never return and I hear this first hand. that´s bad for a town whose economy is solely based in tourism.

here´s a fact which I find alarming, the new water lines and sewage have been built to handle a population of between 30 and 40,000. That´s it? so all this improvement will have to be re-done is such short order according to the predicted growth? i am thankful that mine is an established business because a fledgling business would never survive this.

to add more acid to the wounds right before the Christmas holidays, when Loreto is at 100% capacity for tourism, all hotels full...the gov decides to put lighting along the streets of Salvatierra and Hidalgo the main street in town. They proceeded to rip up most of the sidewalks so it was virtually impossible to walk, for tourists to walk around and spend money, wey, then they closed it up after tourism went down as it does after the holidays, only to proceed to rip up the streets entirely in february when they unpaved. I have not forgotten this. It is complete and utter bullchit and bad for business which is bad for the local economy which is bad for everyone.

On the comment on the desal report. I have to confeess that I haven´t read it yet but your reminder here will make me print it up and read this week. I am very interested and will start on it tonight. I just finished our busiest season ever and closed up the shop then did some spring cleaning in my house. House is clean and now I can hang out on the hammock for some light reading. also I´ll check the stat on my new private BBS and contact those who are interested.

Thank You

cajhawk - 8-28-2007 at 12:28 PM

Thanks for your points Pam. I thought that I would clarify what I (think I) know about the 3 issues I stated. I think that LB needs to address the water issue as if they weren't going to get any from the aquifer. The wind power will supply more than enough electricity intially, but if all 3 developments go in they will need to build more. As far as your take on the long term effect on Loreto, I would agree. If 3 developments of this size go in, it will ruin Loreto. If Fadesa doesn't go in and one of the two remaining projects completes 1/2 of their scope, you are looking at about 5,000 new homes over a 10 year period (12,000 people). Will this ruin Loreto? I don't know. LB has built 150 or so homes in 4 years, so I think that 6,000 in a 10 year period will never happen.

I have spent some time in Loreto and love it. I actually bought an LB house with some partners (and am now selling it with no plans to buy anything else -- cash strapped!). I have spent time at the Nopolo Condos as well and really like the town of Loreto itself. I have seen the good and bad of Loreto Bay up close, so as I stated before I am not an apologist. Thanks for your viewpoint!

flyfishinPam - 8-28-2007 at 12:34 PM

Well my child has returned from school and I have to go away from the internet now but a quick question:

"If Fadesa doesn't go in and one of the two remaining projects completes 1/2 of their scope, you are looking at about 5,000 new homes over a 10 year period (12,000 people). Will this ruin Loreto? I don't know. LB has built 150 or so homes in 4 years, so I think that 6,000 in a 10 year period will never happen. "

Where are you getting these numbers and how can you make your assumptions based on these? 12,000 people where in the developments or throughout the Loreto area?

if we were only talking an increase of 12,000 new residents you wouldn´t hear a peep from me. it would be insignificant.

I don´t know about the god and bad of Loreto Bay but only the reality of Loreto.

oldhippie - 8-28-2007 at 12:56 PM

"rumor is and it may or may not be true, that the state government has with-held funding for repaving so that Loreto will vote their party (PRD) instead of the current party (PAN) in the next election. so that´s why we have chit floating down the street!"

I've heard that's how politics works in Mexico. Hence Hank (PRI and a strong candidiate) lost and Millan (PAN and Calderon's buddy) won in BC a few weeks ago. A brutal but very effective political strategy. When's the next election for BCS governor and city mayors? Vote PAN all the way and get in the good graces of Mexico City, where the big bucks are!

cajhawk - 8-28-2007 at 02:17 PM

The 12,000 people are at the development itself. It will obviously increase the number of people in Loreto proper as well, but nowhere near (IMHO) the 20 or so Nationals per home. The construction camps and transient nature of the industry preclude most of them from calling Loreto home long term. I think the number will be almost one for one in that if 5,000 units are built (12,000 or so people) another 12,000 will actually be living in Loreto as well. Many of these homes are longer term investments for gringos and will be rented to those working in these towns (service industry). Is that too many? What if Loreto proper triples in 20 years? Is that still too many? For folks there now the answer is yes, but if I come down there in 20 years will a town of 35,000 turn me off?

backninedan - 8-28-2007 at 03:02 PM

"Many of these homes are longer term investments for gringos and will be rented to those working in these towns (service industry).

Have you even been to baja?? If so you should realize how silly this statement is. Where in hell are service industry employees going to get that kind of money. If gringos are depending on this to bail them out of a bad investment, they will be in deep trouble.

oldhippie - 8-28-2007 at 03:29 PM

"Many of these homes are longer term investments for gringos and will be rented to those working in these towns (service industry)."

That's mighty pee-poor investing. My wife, who has lived in TJ all her life, tells me that the check-out people in grocery stores make about $80 a week. Sooooo, let's spend a quarter of a million dollars or more on a house and rent it to these folks. I'll skip doing the arithmetic for you. That idea is a BIG loser.

All of this is besides the point anyway. There's no water. What's there now is already being rationed.

And, thanks to the developers and their "partnerships" with the local officials,

THERE'S RAW SEWAGE FLOWING IN THE STREETS OF LORETO.

As reported by a resident of the town.

Russ - 8-28-2007 at 03:37 PM

Can you just imagine how big the law suits against the government officials and developers would be in New Port Beach or any where in Orange County? CACHING :!:

bajalou - 8-28-2007 at 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
"Many of these homes are longer term investments for gringos and will be rented to those working in these towns (service industry)."

So do like they do in other areas - rent to the Time Share and Real estate sales people. And all the other hanger on's that show up in town when it's growing.
:biggrin:

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