BajaNomad - Senate immigration bill suffers crushing defeat

Senate immigration bill suffers crushing defeat

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DENNIS - 7-1-2007 at 07:03 PM

Sorry Larry. That was an out-of-context cheap shot.

Gadget - 7-1-2007 at 07:50 PM

Wow! a hot topic here huh?
I'm a General Contractor.
I don't hire illegals or day workers off the street.
I use a professional staffing agency for all my employment needs from skilled to unskilled who hire properly documented workers only.
I don't make as much money per year as if I hired off the street.
I don't have payroll, employer tax reporting, workers comp or un-employment claims, the agency takes care of all that and sends me a monthly bill.
I don't have to go buy lunch for workers unless I want to.
I get the job done in a timely and professional manner and have been for almost 20 years now.
I used to hire low skill workers out of prison release programs until temp agencies caught hold in our area.

Congressman Arlin Spectar said the other day when the bill went down that the desenters need to voice their views so that meaningful work can be done to complete the immigration reform bill.
Congress does not listen to us anymore but they heard us for sure on this one.
And were called the voting public Arlin!!!

I'll repeat what I want.
A secure border to protect us from terrorists and illegals of any nationality.
Jobs going to workers legally entitled to them of any nationality.
Employers fined or locked up per emplyee for hiring illegals of any nationality.

I can run my business without illegals in a very competitive industry full of them and still pay my bills. Anyone else who says they can't are just plain greedy.

DENNIS - 7-1-2007 at 08:02 PM

Hey Gadget ----

YANKEE DOODLE..............Good for you

Paula - 7-1-2007 at 08:28 PM

''Sorry Larry. That was an out-of-context cheap shot."

Dennis, I don't want to enter this discussion, but I did want to tell you that I think the above was a very nice post

DENNIS - 7-1-2007 at 08:35 PM

Thanks Paula. As you know, I sometimes lose control of myself.

Paula - 7-1-2007 at 08:43 PM

So glad that never happens to me :lol:

Mexitron - 7-2-2007 at 06:17 AM

Gadget--I've used those temp agencies...the employees were generally laughable and were sometimes illegal(they just gave false documents to the agency--they told me themselves). But glad to hear its worked for you. I really wanted to go that route because I hate all that paperwork too.

oldhippie - 7-2-2007 at 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho
Ah. Do you fully trust the Mexican government?

Trust Government? I don't understand.

oldhippie - 7-2-2007 at 09:12 AM

Come on grover, the Mexican Government doesn't do that.

Gadget - 7-2-2007 at 05:58 PM

Thank you gentlemen for your kind comments. I wasn't looking for acolades here, just stating the facts as how I try not to contribute to the problem(s), one of many facing our country at this time in history.

And yes Mexitron, it isn't easy all the time working with the temp agencies, but I am involved with a very good one at present called Contractors and Builders. I do have to punt low skilled workers if they don't perform occasionally, but I have developed a temp agency workers performance form that each worker must read and sign agreeing to what is expected of him prior to starting work. It has been approved by the agency who thought it was a great idea. If they don't agree to the conditions they don't start work. Simple!!! I have yet to have any kind of problem with higher skilled workers, all of which have been very professional and trustworthy. :yes:

Mexitron - 7-2-2007 at 06:38 PM

Gadget--good to know your technique, I'll give it a try if I ever get employees again...right now working solo and enjoying the freedom of not taking care of the "kids". Actually in Texas there's plenty of legal labor available anyway.
One thing about temps though is that its hard to build a team that consistently works together which was really important in my landscaping work--that was the advantage of full time staff--a well-oiled machine as it were.

What our friends are thinking

Baja Bernie - 7-2-2007 at 07:36 PM

July 3, 2007

Immigration-Political News

The US Senate´s Rejection of Immigration Reform Sends
Political Ripples into Mexico

Widely condemned across Mexico´s political spectrum, the
US Senate´s failure to pass an immigration reform bill has
touched off reactions that could influence the course of
Mexican politics as well as bilateral US-Mexico relations.

In the wake of the recent vote, legislators from the
opposition Institutional Revolutionary Party (PRI)
demanded that the administration of President Felipe
Calderon adopt a more agressive defense of undocumented
Mexicans in the United States.

Ricardo Garcia Cervantes, the president of the North
American foreign relations commission in the Mexican
Senate, contended that Mexico´s federal government ¨has to
do its job¨ and get the immigration question back on the
political agenda between the US and Mexico.

At the same time, the PRI members of the lower chamber of
the Mexican Congress sent a letter to President Calderon
requesting that he demand Washington halt the construction
of new border walls. The PRI representatives proposed the
possibility of withdrawing Mexico´s ambassador to the US
if no positive response was received from the Bush
administration.

In other pronoucements, the National Campesino
Confederation (CNC), a mass organization of small farmers
historically tied to the PRI, and the Mexican Episcopal
Conference (CEM) both commented that the defeat of
immigration reform in the US demonstrated the need for a
fresh look at job creation and other internal solutions to
a migration crisis that has as many as 600,000 Mexicans
leaving their homeland every year.

For his part, longtime Mexican political leader Porfirio
Munoz Ledo noted the irony of the immigration bill defeat
at a time when Mexican residents of US are reportedly
consuming more than other US residents, and driving
economic growth.

In an exclusive interview with Frontera NorteSur, Munoz
Ledo called Mexicans in the US a ¨boost to the North
American economy.¨ A former leader of the PRI who helped
found the center-left Party of the Democratic Revolution
in 1989, Munoz Ledo has served in both houses of Mexican
Congress. He was once Mexico´s ambasssor to the United
Nations, and during the early years of the Fox
Administration served as ambassador to the European
Union.

Munoz Ledo traced the current immigration crisis to the
North American Free Agreement that opened the door to the
massive importation of basic grains from the United States
and the ¨depopulation¨of the Mexican countryside.

¨The big error of (former President) Salinas was to not
demand the free circulation of people in exchange for the
North American Free Agreement, like it exists in Europe,¨
Munoz Ledo said.

The veteran politician also criticized the Mexican
government´s ¨timid¨relationships with migrants in the US
and with ¨Hispanics in general.¨ Munoz Ledo affirmed that
it is up to migrants across the border to press for
immigration reform, but that the Mexican government has
both a responsibility as well as a right to strengthen
relationships with its citizens in the US.

Additional Sources: CNN en Espanol, July 1, 2007. La
Jornada, June 30, 2007. Articles by Angeles Mariscal,
Georgina Saldierna, Gabriel Leon, Roberto Garduno, and
Andrea Becerril.

Frontera NorteSur (FNS): on-line, U.S.-Mexico border news
Center for Latin American and Border Studies
New Mexico State University
Las Cruces, New Mexico

oldhippie - 7-2-2007 at 08:15 PM

Interesting, it seems to be a tepid response. For some reason it seems to me that the Mexicans would be more or less happy with what they got, nothing, the status quo.

The Gull - 7-3-2007 at 06:08 AM

It was amnesty for breaking US law.

It doesn't wash with even the most heart tearing stories of a bad life without breaking the law.

All actions have consequences.

Arizona just passed a law to prosecute employers of illegals. I wish them well and long days for lots of raids.

oldhippie - 7-3-2007 at 06:51 AM

Gull, please explain what you would like to see happen to the 12 million people who are in the US illegally.

David K - 7-3-2007 at 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
Gull, please explain what you would like to see happen to the 12 million people who are in the US illegally.

How about the SAME thing Mexico would do to Americans who are breaking Mexican law?

Can you imagine if groups of Americans marching in Mexican cities carrying American flags... demanding special services and a change to the law?

(I am not Gull... but I felt inspired to jump in!)

oldhippie - 7-3-2007 at 07:23 AM

"How about the SAME thing Mexico would do to Americans who are breaking Mexican law?"

And what would that be? Go ahead, explain your solution.

Pass the Necessary Laws and Tighten Up Enforcement

MrBillM - 7-3-2007 at 08:04 AM

Michael Jerkoff, the Homeland Security Jefe, decried the failure of the Bill because it meant that the "Emergency" funds of 4 + Billion for Fence Building would not be forthcoming. The answer to that "Emergency" situation is simple. Draft and pass a clean bill funding the money.

As with every other issue, tackle them ONE at a time. The whole excuse for COMPREHENSIVE Legislation is for Everyone to get something they like, good idea or not. So-called Comprehensive legislation usually makes for REALLY Bad Law.

IF the workers are needed, Pass legsislation to increase the Temporary Work Visas such as H-2-B in the other fields where we NEED foreign workers. Offer a Seasonal Visa to anyone who comes forward and can show they've paid their taxes, etc while already here as their defenders claim they have.

Use whatever ICE resources available to track down and round up what violators we can.

Anything that decreases the approximately 12 million figure and curtails the rate at which illegal workers are coming in will be an improvement.

Taco de Baja - 7-3-2007 at 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
Gull, please explain what you would like to see happen to the 12 million people who are in the US illegally.

It's a free country we live in, even for those who are here illegally.

Enforce the law, and build the fence.

Then, they can choose what to do, when the work dries up because no one will hire them.

They initially chose to come here, in many cases they chose to tear apart and separate their families; they can choose to go home too.

It is not the responsibility of the USA to support the tired, poor, and huddled masses of the world. If it were, there are a couple Billion people who would love to come here….

----------------

And to those who say “fences don’t work” They do. Remember back in the late 1980’s and early 1990’s all the illegals who were getting hit on the I-5 freeway trying to evade the San Onofre checkpoint? That’s when they came up with the road sign of the mom and dad dragging their kid behind them…in English it said CAUTION in Spanish it said PROHIBIDO.

That did not work several people still died every year…..They decided to build a fence down the centerline of the freeway, the activists said “no, no, don’t do it, it too expensive and it wont work….” Since the fence was built, no one has died.

Fences make good neighbors and save lives.

oldhippie - 7-3-2007 at 08:27 AM

OK Taco, at least you have a plan. Crack down on the employers and jobs will dry up for the illegals. Then they can choose what to do. Not bad, but there's one problem. You'll be creating a destitute/desperate class of millions of people. Not a good thing. Property theft, armed robbery, drug abuse, malnourished childern, etc.

You'll be making a bad problem worse.

[Edited on 7-3-2007 by oldhippie]

Lets See How it Works in Arizona

bajalou - 7-3-2007 at 08:40 AM

From the NY Times

Expressing frustration with the lack of a federal immigration law overhaul, Gov. Janet Napolitano of Arizona signed a bill yesterday providing what are thought to be the toughest state sanctions in the country against employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants.

Ms. Napolitano, a Democrat, called the bill flawed and suggested that the Arizona Legislature reconvene to repair problems with it, but she nevertheless moved forward “because Congress has failed miserably,” she wrote in a statement.

The bill requires employers to verify the legal status of their employees. If they fail to do so, they risk having their business licenses suspended. A second offense could result in the “business death penalty,” a permanent revocation of the state business license, effectively preventing a business from operating in the state.

There's more at

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/03/us/03arizona.html?th&e...

oldhippie - 7-3-2007 at 08:52 AM

Another thought after my gedankenexperiment where I just walked a mile in the other man's shoes.

If I were he and the US tried to forcefully make me leave, either by brute force or cutting off my livelihood and all of that threatened the welfare of my family or some other thing of equal regard, well, being me, I'd fight back. Americans would really be hating me. I can't help it, it's just the way I am and I'm proud of it.

Sooooooooooo, perhaps we're sitting on a tinderbox and should take to heart the words "all men are created equal" and show the basic level of respect that all living things deserve. I guess, especially people.

This idea that all of that doesn't matter because someone broke a law in order to work is a red herring. I think what the non pathway to citizenship folks think is something much more base.

Taco de Baja - 7-3-2007 at 09:04 AM

One problem with the Napolitano plan Lou....The ACLU. :mad:

They will threaten to sue, the law will be repealed, and it'll be business as usual.

Old hippie, I say again it is NOT our responsibility to support the poor people of the world.
If they choose a life of crime, rather than leaving, jail them in the AZ desert, al la Joe Arpaio (you get water, food, shade and pink boxer shorts, and little else) then deport them.

The Gull - 7-3-2007 at 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
Gull, please explain what you would like to see happen to the 12 million people who are in the US illegally.

We already have too many of them in jail, so that type of social engineering won't work.

Deport 10% of them this year and the rest will get the message.

It is interesting to hear the BS from people who do the estimating of 12 million. I think it is 11,342,968 and they aren't all from south of the border.

oldhippie - 7-3-2007 at 09:48 AM

OK, Taco is going to put 'em in jail if they get violent. And certainly millions won't get violent, maybe just a few hundred thousand or so.

Gull is going to deport 10% a year and the message to others will be go home quietly or take your chances that you may have another 9 years before there's any problem.

Come on anti-immigration bill people, I want to hear it.

oldhippie - 7-3-2007 at 09:56 AM

actually 10% a year would take care of 100% in 7.2 years, sorry for the common math error.

assuming no others came in

[Edited on 7-3-2007 by oldhippie]

Mexitron - 7-3-2007 at 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
actually 10% a year would take care of 100% in 7.2 years, sorry for the common math error.

assuming no others came in

[Edited on 7-3-2007 by oldhippie]

I think Gull was saying that by deporting 10 percent this year the rest would be scared into leaving as well(which isn't likely since you'd have reduced the labor pool and probably creating higher wages).

anyway--isn't 10 percent a year kind of like Zeno's Paradox :spingrin:

--how'd you get to 7.2 years?

Taco de Baja - 7-3-2007 at 10:48 AM

So what's your solution oldhippie?

Legalize the 12-20 million that are here (or were here as of Jan 1, 2007)? Ok, that quickly solves one problem with a name change...... :rolleyes:

Then what? Just say screw it and have no border? Make everyone citizens of the world, free to go wherever, whenever they want??? A giant free labor market, if you will....I am sure there are Palestinians, Indians, Africans, Chinese, etc. who come here and will work at 1/4 or maybe 1/8 the wages employers pay the current illegals. Think how cheap everything would be! :light:

Also, remember there is that poll from 2005 that found that 40% of Mexico would move to the USA, if they could Link. That's close to 40 Million, from just one country!

So what do we do ito curtail illegal immigration in the coming years, oldhippie?
I’m not talking LEGAL immigration, I’m referring to the ILLEGAL immigration.

oldhippie - 7-3-2007 at 10:50 AM

Maybe I applied the rule of 72 incorrectly. If you have 8% growth every year you will double whatever your growing, usually money, in 72/8 or 9 years. Inversely, if you're shrinking something by say 10%, it will disappear in 72/10 or 7.2 years. Zeno's paradox does apply, but we're talking finite elements, people. I suppose eventually you would have just arms and legs lying around as you approached the finish line, which just before it would be the last pubic hair.

oldhippie - 7-3-2007 at 10:53 AM

I thought the Congress and President Bush came up with a reasonable stab at the solution for existing illegal aliens and the curtailment of future illegal entry. Keep in mind it could have been amended and improved as time went on. But no, it didn't happen.

oldhippie - 7-3-2007 at 11:03 AM

BTW, the rule of 72 is an approximation to a more complex equation. It works rather well in the 5 to 15% range.

The Gull - 7-3-2007 at 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
BTW, the rule of 72 is an approximation to a more complex equation. It works rather well in the 5 to 15% range.

Why is it surprising to see a mis-application of math from advocates of amnesty for criminals? 1+1 = whatever proves your point. Reading is fundamental - you should try it. I wrote that removing 10% of the criminals (illegally entered the US) would start the change needed. I did not say to waste resources chasing 10% per year to infinity. Maybe the second year, we should incarcerate 10% of the employers and watch that event unfold. The laws are already on the books for both.

With that kind of clear thinking, you must be a supporter of GWB commutation of Scooter's jail time. Scooter didn't even have to check in and fake hysteria like Paris did.

Why did GWB get it right with this amnesty plan when he has gotten everything else wrong - according to the American experts on US politics and public policy who are legal and illegal residents of Mexico who frequent this board?

Answer that one.

oldhippie - 7-3-2007 at 11:22 AM

George got only one thing right of all the things he's done because he is stupid. When I went to school people who flunked out were at least half right.

There I answered it, any more questions?

The Gull - 7-3-2007 at 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
George got only one thing right of all the things he's done because he is stupid. When I went to school people who flunked out were at least half right.

There I answered it, any more questions?

None, everything is now self evident.

oldhippie - 7-3-2007 at 11:39 AM

Glad to hear it. You're welcome.

DENNIS - 7-3-2007 at 12:56 PM

Jeezo...Are you guys done peeing all over each others shoes?

oldhippie - 7-3-2007 at 01:51 PM

good thing you said peeing, the website wouldn't allow peeing (rhymes with hissing)

just a friendly debate between the left and the wrong, I'm having fun.

Slowmad - 7-3-2007 at 02:16 PM

"Who's gonna build your wall"
By Tom Russell

I got 800 miles of bolted border
Right outside my door
There's minutemen in little pickup trucks
Who declared their own dang war
Now the government wants to build a barrier like ol' berlin, 8 feet tall

But if Uncle Sam sends the illegals home
Who's gonna build the wall

Who's gonna build your wall, boys
Who's gonna maw your lawn
Who's gonna cook your Mexican food
When your Mexican maid is gone

Who's gonna wax your floors tonight
Down at the local mall
Who's gonna wash your baby's face
Who's gonna build your wall

I ain't got no politics
So don't lay that rap on me
Left wing right wing up wing down
I see strip malls

It's the bad cat white developer
Who's created this whole damn squale
It's the pyramid scheme of dirty jobs
And who's gonna build your wall

Who's gonna build your wall, boys
Who's gonna maw your lawn
Who's gonna cook your Mexican food
When your Mexican maid is gone

Who's gonna wax your floors tonight
Down at the local mall
Who's gonna wash your baby's face
Who's gonna build your wall

We've got fundamentalist muslims
We've got fundamentalist jew
We've got fundamentalist Christian
That'll blow the whole thing up for you

But as I travel around this big ol' world
There's one thing that I most fear
It's a white man in a golf shirt
With a cell phone in his ear

Who's gonna build your wall, boys
Who's gonna maw your lawn
Who's gonna cook your Mexican food
When your Mexican maid is gone

Who's gonna wax your floors tonight
Down at the local mall
Who's gonna wash your baby's face
Who's gonna build your wall

oldhippie - 7-3-2007 at 02:24 PM

what's the melody? a popular tune?

Slowmad - 7-3-2007 at 02:51 PM

No to the melody.

But he's been puttin' out the goods for a long while.

toneart - 7-3-2007 at 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by The Gull

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
BTW, the rule of 72 is an approximation to a more complex equation. It works rather well in the 5 to 15% range.

Why did GWB get it right with this amnesty plan when he has gotten everything else wrong - according to the American experts on US politics and public policy who are legal and illegal residents of Mexico who frequent this board?

Answer that one.

Beats me. maybe he was rebelling against his puppet master while he was away in an undisclosed location . :?:

The Gull - 7-3-2007 at 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
good thing you said peeing, the website wouldn't allow ******* (rhymes with hissing)

just a friendly debate between the left and the wrong, I'm having fun.

Dennis is being sensitive, that's why it looked awkward.

By the way, he meant kissing.

Frequent Flyers

Slowmad - 7-3-2007 at 04:21 PM

Did you know that there's a First Class Upgrade offered by many coyotes along La Linea?

A typical low budget service might be 500 dollars point-to-point.
But an acquaintence (and a damn good tree trimmer) paid 3000 dollars for something called "guaranteed."
That included a trip acrossed the line with three others in a U.S. Border Patrol vehicle.
Says it's available from T-town to Texas.

A patrolman can match his annual salary in a day.

Who's gonna build your wall?

oldhippie - 7-3-2007 at 05:19 PM

$3000 ???

You can get genuine forged documents that will have the immigration guys wishing you nice day as you cross for much less.

Who's gonna build your wall?

DENNIS - 7-3-2007 at 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
good thing you said peeing, the website wouldn't allow ******* (rhymes with hissing)

just a friendly debate between the left and the wrong, I'm having fun.

Yeah... I know Olddebator........
I thrive on contention here. Your interaction is good. Sometimes agreeable, sometimes so far to the left that I cant understand it.
I repect your qualified opinions. I can't respect your nonsense. And, if your reasons for being in Canada during the war had anything to do with the war, [you said they didn't] I repell from you. I couldn't respect you enough to discuss anything here, or anywhere.
Your ideals are yours. Mine are mine.

David K - 7-3-2007 at 06:31 PM

Sorry Hippie, but I was working today with my son and my LEGAL, card carrying amigo from Oaxaca...

See that's the point... LEGAL. We are not anti immigrant, we are anti criminal (what breaking the law is). The bill was an amnesty bill, allowing criminals to stay here while all others are in line going through the process.

Why is it that (some) latino immigrants need a 'pass' on obeying our immigration laws, while all others (our ancestors, relatives) went through the process... learned the language, and became Americans?

Why... well how about the real underlying reason... VOTES. Pandering to a voting group for the politicians' own greed, to stay in office or convert America to a socialist country...

Have a Nice Day! :biggrin:

DENNIS - 7-3-2007 at 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
We are not anti immigrant, we are anti criminal

Thanks David. THAT should be a bumper sticker.

DENNIS - 7-3-2007 at 06:56 PM

I guess all you aholes with a contentious point, dragging along your convenient facts, are going to have to deal with grover. He seems to have a handel on what is factual.
Go ahead.....Test him.
I honestly appreciate his interjections here and there which bring factual facts to the debate.

Thanks, Grover.

woody with a view - 7-3-2007 at 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by grover

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie...Who's gonna build your wall?

Fence-building company punished for hiring illegal immigrants

These guys are a little too busy in court to get to it.

"...Golden State, which is based in Riverside and has a branch in Oceanside, was ordered to forfeit $4.7 million to the U.S. government. That total represents the amount of profit the government believed the company derived through its use of undocumented workers. Kay was ordered to pay a $200,000 fine, and McLaughlin must pay a $100,000 fine.

The company, Kay and McLaughlin pleaded guilty in December to knowingly hiring at least 10 illegal immigrants within a 12-month period.

"I would like to apologize for my company and my behavior," Kay said in a courtroom...

..."This case is not about the exploitation of employees," [defense attorney]Hirsch said..." :lol:

i have worked right along side this company for a few years. it's hard to fault the workers, but the owners should lose their license and spend a few years in prison-after they lose their houses and bank accounts. they were actually raided TWICE and were found to have kept some illegal employees on their payroll up until the end.

CULOS!

David K - 7-3-2007 at 07:17 PM

It's probably hard to give up a good employee, because the federal government was unable or unwilling to secure our borders.

I do not think a business should be resonsible to do border enforcement... Business should be able to hire the best person for the job and assume all people in America belong here. It is the federal government's job to keep America secure from invasion...

The real solution is for Mexico to become as prosperous as America is through free enterprise, end of corruption, drop ridiculous banking restrictions on loaning money for business start ups, guarantee true property rights... etc.

THEN those poor people would not be compelled to risk their lives to come here to do any job they can get! Mexico IS a rich country... if it would only free up the opportunity to all.

woody with a view - 7-3-2007 at 07:31 PM

DK

now you're becoming an apologist. these guys at golden state were told after the first raid that there were "X" amount of illegals. they were told who the guys were. they just went about it like business as usual. until the next raid where they were found to have snubbed their noses at the federal gov't.

f'em! they should lose more than a few $.

DENNIS - 7-3-2007 at 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

The real solution is for Mexico to become as prosperous as America is through free enterprise, end of corruption, drop ridiculous banking restrictions on loaning money for business start ups, guarantee true property rights... etc.

Jeezo-- That is funny. I mean, Im laughing my culo off.
Where did you ever get this economic profile that gives blue-sky hope to any individuals in a system that is controled by one or two people? It's slavery on an acceptible level. So refined.

DENNIS - 7-3-2007 at 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by grover

Might need a Big Government to handle it.

How much bigger can it get?

bancoduo - 7-3-2007 at 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Ask him about his "HELPERS"

oldhippie - 7-4-2007 at 06:37 AM

A few of you have missed my point. To those who are anti pathway to citizenship, I was asking the simple question "What are the alternatives?" The question applies to only the people who are here now illegally.

So far the alternatives expressed are based upon an idea that the US Government pass some kind of law that will scare the illegals and they'll go back voluntarily out of fear. In other words, no workable alternatives have been expressed, and there are no workable alternatives yet to be expressed.

So, it's my position that the people here now need to be legalized via some mechanism whether you like it or not. Why? Because, once more, there are no alternatives.

woody with a view - 7-4-2007 at 06:49 AM

go after the employers, the jobs dry up (mostly) and they go home (mostly). how many millions are in prisons? send 'em back when they are released.

it's a start without the addition of a bigger magnet (old hippie's version).......

oldhippie - 7-4-2007 at 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
And, if your reasons for being in Canada during the war had anything to do with the war, [you said they didn't] I repell from you. I couldn't respect you enough to discuss anything here, or anywhere.
Your ideals are yours. Mine are mine.

I was a middle class white kid going to college when I was of draft age. Students like me didn't get drafted. I lived in Canada just across the border for the same reasons I live in Mexico now, I had a nice inexpensive place on the beach close to my daily activities in the US.

The Gull - 7-4-2007 at 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
A few of you have missed my point. To those who are anti pathway to citizenship, I was asking the simple question "What are the alternatives?" The question applies to only the people who are here now illegally.

So far the alternatives expressed are based upon an idea that the US Government pass some kind of law that will scare the illegals and they'll go back voluntarily out of fear. In other words, no workable alternatives have been expressed, and there are no workable alternatives yet to be expressed.

So, it's my position that the people here now need to be legalized via some mechanism whether you like it or not. Why? Because, once more, there are no alternatives.

Here's a simple answer for a simple mind. Naturally, you disregard any alternative that does not fit your idea of what you want. Pompous attitude.

BTW, on your road to citizenship idea, how does the enforcement agent know someone has been in the US so that they get the chance to begin the road, versus someone who just got to the US the week after? None of these criminals would ever think of faking their name and changing ID's, frequently.

Enforce the laws - deport criminals and prosecute employers. ...and try to remember to consider the illegal entry issue is NOT A MEXICAN-ONLY ISSUE!

[Edited on 7-4-2007 by The Gull]

The Gull - 7-4-2007 at 08:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie

Quote:

A practiced answer, if there ever was one.

amir - 7-4-2007 at 08:40 AM

Maybe a practiced answer, but could still be true!
There was no draft during the beginning of the VietNam war.
Later there was a draft lottery that went by birthdays.
There were plenty of kids that volunteered to be cannon fodder.
There was no shortage of soldiers during that war.

--Amir

wornout - 7-4-2007 at 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by amir
Maybe a practiced answer, but could still be true!
There was no draft during the beginning of the VietNam war.
Later there was a draft lottery that went by birthdays.
There were plenty of kids that volunteered to be cannon fodder.
There was no shortage of soldiers during that war.

--Amir

Personally, I am thankful for the 'cannon fodder' because if it wasn't for them, we would be speaking Chinese now, and German or Japanese, after world war 1 & II, and so on.

And as far as the amnesty bill goes, why put more laws on the books, that these idiots we elect to represent us and send to Washington DC, will not enforce! I do think there is a ray of hope since I understand we did a good job of jamming the phone system in DC, speaking our mind and using our tools to let them know we are here.

Cypress - 7-4-2007 at 10:56 AM

Yea. We've got too many "Laws" as it is.

More laws reqiure more police, more police require more money , more money requires more taxes.

All those parasites in Washington do is make laws and beat their gums.

Enforce the laws we already have. :biggrin:

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