BajaNomad

TIP JUAN !!!!

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smlslikfish - 3-25-2008 at 11:44 AM

I stand corrected :)

gibson - 3-25-2008 at 11:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diver

Juan is a gentleman who would never ask for a tip and enjoys fishing over money.


exactly. really feeling for this guy and his obvious culture clashing :lol::lol:

pascuale - 3-25-2008 at 12:05 PM

If Juan is charging $100 bucks for fishing, ill be there soon. Best price in baja hands down. Thats awesome and hed at least get $40 tip from me. Does $100 even pay for fuel? ****, ill be there asap. Palmas is like $250 +taxes +tip+lunches+2.50 for each beer put in the cooler, for a panga. Juan is the man, but no Banana hammocks onboard.
:lol:

Thanks for everyones opinions, good read and i hope everyone learned something.
have a nice day and wish me a happy 26th birthday:lol:

[Edited on 3-25-2008 by pascuale]

[Edited on 3-25-2008 by Hose A]

pascuale - 3-25-2008 at 12:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Diver
Now that you are out-of-the-closet smellyfish, it sure doesn't seem fair to pull Juan and Shari into your little rant. They are good folks that are trying to adapt to their growing gringo clientel.
Juan is a gentleman who would never ask for a tip and enjoys fishing over money. Without his knowledge of where and when to fish, most of his clients would have got bubkas.

To Pascaul also;
I have worked as crew on party boats when I was younger and expected less $ from life. I always enjoyed being on the water and the clients were just part of the day - often a good part. Tips were good when they were good; more like an unexpected bonus. Seems like times have changed.
.

[Edited on 3-25-2008 by Diver]



Whats changed...hmmm how much was a home in San Diego in the 70's, or 80's. Glad you didnt need the tips, but times have changed .

Tipping

makana.gabriel - 3-25-2008 at 12:16 PM

This is from a recent post by Rosana Hart in Jalisco. I'm sure anybody who reads this will be forever changed on how they view tipping in MX. It did for me.

2 comments
Tuesday, March 18, 2008
There is Hunger Here

A Mexican friend of mine went to Soriana in nearby Chapala the other day. It's a box store with a large parking lot, and there are always several guys there washing cars while you shop. We often get our car washed there.

When one of the men asked her if he could wash her car, she began by saying, "It's hardly worth it because of all the jacaranda trees where I live... my car never stays clean." But when she glanced at him, the disappointment in his face caused her to change her mind and say "Sure, go ahead and wash it."

When she was done with her shopping, she paid him what he asked, some 25 pesos, and she added a tip. The man's eyes welled up with tears and he told her that he had had no work in two days and his children had not eaten.

Yesterday, Kelly and I did some shopping at SuperLake, a grocery store on the main highway in San Antonio Tlayacapan which caters to foreigners. I've mentioned it before -- it's where I get a lot of things that a typical Mexican store doesn't carry, like tamari, brown rice, and black tea.

HPIM1247There is an indigenous woman beggar who is usually sitting on the sidewalk in front of SuperLake or the liquor store next door. I often give her ten pesos and over time, we have developed a friendship. She has had some health problems which we have discussed, and she has showed me the medications prescribed by the IMSS, the national health care system. Here is a photo of the two of us on the sidewalk in front of the community bulletin board, taken with her permission.

So after hearing my friend's story about the man at Soriana, yesterday I squatted down and told my beggar friend that a Mexican had been talking with me about how sometimes people here don't have anything at all to eat. Does this happen to her?

She nodded. On the days that she comes and begs, she can always eat something, but on the days she stays home, sometimes there is nothing to eat. She said she has to pay, not for only food, but also for her rent and light bills, as well as bus fares, from what she earns begging. I know she lives a bus ride away beyond Chapala someplace, not in the fancy high-rent districts.

Well, I wasn't born yesterday and I knew that many poor Mexicans eat a substandard diet. But I was a bit taken aback by total lack of food. I asked if she had family that helped her. There was a bit of a catch in her throat as she said her daughter does sometimes. I got the feeling there was a sad story there, so didn't pursue it. I asked if she got any money from the government and she was astonished at the idea.

I went into Tony's for lunch with friends, and told them what I've just written here. One of them said she never gives to beggars but will now. Lakeside has a small contingent of regular beggars, and most of them are not whining... the ones in the more anonymous atmosphere of Guadalajara tend to do desperate pleading which is pretty rare here. There's a blind man stationed in front of Tony's who speaks English and I often say hello as I walk past him.

As I did my shopping a little later, splurging on a package of that nice Mexican brie I have just discovered and loading up on luscious golden mangos that are now in season, I felt wealthy. As we put our groceries in the trunk of the car, I said hi to a fellow standing in the parking lot with his dog. I had chatted with him before. He's American and had been singing quite a lovely song in front of SuperLake once, begging in that way. Yesterday when I said hi to him, I reached in my purse for a coin. He said, "You gave me something before. I try not to ask the same people," and he went on to mention that he is homeless, which didn't surprise Kelly or me. Haven't seen any other American homeless here. I gave him the coin anyway. Any hunger is too much hunger.

[Edited on 3-25-2008 by makana.gabriel]

pascuale - 3-25-2008 at 12:25 PM

Very true Makana, thanks for the story.

vandenberg - 3-25-2008 at 12:42 PM

Although we're drifting from the original subject, I like to respond to Makana's post.
Growing up in Holland as a youngster right after WW11,we had several beggars in our main shopping district, sitting on the cold pavement ,usually under the big stores awnings. Crutches, eye patches, torn clothing and other forms of apparent poverty abound and selling pencils to get by in life.
Can't remember the exact reason, but some one observed one of them, after his "shift" crutched along for a few blocks, got in a car and left. Those were the days that no one but the very rich or government officials had cars. Lucky to have a bicycle. They started investigating those people and discovered that their average income approached 25000 guilders a year. Those were the days that the average workingman, like my dad, struggled to take home 50 guilders a week.
Thought I bring this up to put all this in some kind of perpective.

[Edited on 3-25-2008 by vandenberg](spelling)

[Edited on 3-25-2008 by vandenberg]

Martyman - 3-25-2008 at 02:18 PM

People that have jobs that tipping is part of their income are very passionate on the subject. People like me who work a regular job with an average wage are not passionate, and generally are confused about how much to tip in foreign countries.

I remember someone telling me "don't leave anything, they don't tip in Mexico"!!!

I am not a big tipper or a rich guy. Usually I leave 10% at a restaurant in Mexico or whatever change I have in my pocket and it is definately related to how good the food/service was. I leave nothing if it was crappy.

smlslikfish - 3-25-2008 at 02:43 PM

Back to the subject at hand, I often ride my son's boat here in so cal, and often I'm allowed to ride for free or a reduced ticket price. When that happens I leave the fare as a tip and help scrub the decks and bag fish etc. It's about showing your appreciation.

Iflyfish - 3-25-2008 at 03:12 PM

When I was doing group therapy on my marathons I often did the following experiment. I had all members stand in a circle, reach in their pocket and place in their hand an amount of money that they would be comfortable parting with. I then asked each person to put their hand with the money in the center of the circle and with the other hand to take all of the money they wanted from other peoples hands. I had people keep "for real" the money they extracted and then ask people to consider and discuss their process in this experiment. Did they take enough, not enough, "give too much", "take to o much"......it was always interesting to me how much people's "script" played into this and how people tended to generate familiar feelings in this situation. Some felt "ripped off" or that ait was "unfare" like they always felt in life, some felt "guilty" like they always did in their life, some laughed and enjoyed themselves like they always did in their life, some were very analytic and saw it as a very interesting social experiment with surprising and a potentially insightful outcome.

When I first did this experiment, as a participant, all of my typical or favorite bad feelings emerged in the context of this small experiment. Gave me lots of pause and helped me to be clear about my own expectations and how much I am in charge of how things turn out for me.

Now there are cross cultural elements to this dialogue, that is clear, and I always try to get as clear as I can. I am not a Mexican and do not know what the expectations are and the only way for me to find out is to either ask or be told. These expectations vary in different subcultures also in Mexico. I have found it to be very different in border towns than in remote villages. In the north we are much clearer about these sort of expectations in urban areas than in rural areas where kinship bonds are primary and people need to barter.

Iflyfish

I am not MINNOW

smlslikfish - 3-25-2008 at 03:24 PM

I just received an email from the minnow himself asking me to verify that I am not HE.... TIP YOUR CREW!!! :P:P:P

BajaWarrior - 3-25-2008 at 03:37 PM

Smlslikfish,

If you don't know Juan and Shari, (I do), how do you know Juan is NOT being tipped?

Juan's prices are fair, and does deserve to receive a tip (I have) for good service.

It's all the other Pangueros that are charging too much!

P.S... Say hi to Minnow for me.

[Edited on 3-25-2008 by BajaWarrior]

Osprey - 3-25-2008 at 03:55 PM

One of my favorite c-cktail waitresses in a Las Vegas bistro seemed to be in a strange mood while working the bar; shaking her head, a funny smile on her face. When I asked her wassup? she said "A guy just gave me a $100 tip and didn't pay for his drink!"

Steve&Debby - 3-25-2008 at 04:03 PM

Hey Pascuale,I beg to differ with you,I am also in the pump service and repair buisness. I have never fixed a custom lunch but I sure have bought alot of customers or potential customers lunch. I have been doing water well drilling and service and repair for 40 years and have never recieved a tip. I am just like you,I do the best job possible and charge a fair price (that I can make a living on) with one big difference I DO NOT EXPECT A TIP and do not think anything less of my customer:!::!::!:

shari - 3-25-2008 at 04:07 PM

Well, I know Juan and I can tell you he rarely gets a tip. Fortunately today a client gave him a nice rapalla and some pliers wich he was very thankful for. By the way, Juan just raised his price up from $75 because of complaints from other charter operators in this part of baja...ha..ha..I sure wish clients would clean their own fish though...we're up at 6:00 getting the boat and gear ready, making lunches, launching boat etc etc...and Juan's pretty bagged when they get back but still has to clean all the fish...I thought guides were paid to catch fish not clean them...my bad...I'm thinking it might be a good idea to pay a kid to come after the charters and offer to clean their fish...everyone gets a bit then...spread the wealth...Juan's sister often prepares the fish and delivers their dinner to the table of their rental house....for $8 a plate...nobody tips her either. Juan would hate this discussion about tips cause he's mexican and they don't tip...cant...haven't ever done it...I just like to see fairness, apreciation respect.

soulpatch - 3-25-2008 at 04:21 PM

Aaagghhhhhh, market forces.
I guess this is where many of us would prefer to just have the desired amount known clearly up front. If he wants $100/day and gets it he should be happy and everyone should walk away feeling fine. This is a one man operation. If he gets more or provides more services/fish cleaning etc to get more then even better. He sounds like a pretty handy guy, I am sure he could make a little sign that states prices for all services besides the days fishing. Hell, they do fuel surcharges, cleaning charges, bagging charges, lunch and beverage charges and probably many more I am forgetting about on this side and everybody is aware when they use a certain service.
I believe that is an extremely long-winded way of saying "take the mystery out of it".
Quote:
Originally posted by shari
Well, I know Juan and I can tell you he rarely gets a tip. Fortunately today a client gave him a nice rapalla and some pliers wich he was very thankful for. By the way, Juan just raised his price up from $75 because of complaints from other charter operators in this part of baja...ha..ha..I sure wish clients would clean their own fish though...we're up at 6:00 getting the boat and gear ready, making lunches, launching boat etc etc...and Juan's pretty bagged when they get back but still has to clean all the fish...I thought guides were paid to catch fish not clean them...my bad...I'm thinking it might be a good idea to pay a kid to come after the charters and offer to clean their fish...everyone gets a bit then...spread the wealth...Juan's sister often prepares the fish and delivers their dinner to the table of their rental house....for $8 a plate...nobody tips her either. Juan would hate this discussion about tips cause he's mexican and they don't tip...cant...haven't ever done it...I just like to see fairness, apreciation respect.

shari - 3-25-2008 at 04:25 PM

but there is such beauty in mystery my friend...I hate signs! I used to love that old song..signs signs everywhere are signs, blockin up the scenery, blowin my mind...do this, don't do that...cant' you read the signs...I think it was the guess who...the only black and white things that I appreciate are photos....thank goodness the world is in technicolour (canadian spelling)....use your OWN head and heart to determine how to treat people...not what a sign tells you to do...life would be pretty dull without mystery.

[Edited on 3-25-2008 by shari]

Santiago - 3-25-2008 at 04:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by shari
I'm thinking it might be a good idea to pay a kid to come after the charters and offer to clean their fish...everyone gets a bit then...spread the wealth


Now that's a good idea - Juan won't have to clean fish and of course, you'd have to tip a kid that cleans and bags your fish. Right? Plus the added goody that the kid's mamasita could make fish head soup 4 or 5 times each week. Good all the way around.

Pescador - 3-25-2008 at 04:30 PM

Well this is a great discussion and I have thought about it several times today as I went about doing other things. First, I find it offensive that a business can get away with paying such low wages that a person can not get by on their salaries and the customer has to subsidize the low wages. I felt different at one time because I was a waiter and learned to play the tip game and customer satisfaction very well, but I still think it is pretty lousy that business owners have somehow sold the customers on the idea that they need to subsidize their lousy wages. However, I am a realist and know that in lots of cases I do tip because I like to see myself as being a generous and non-miserly person, but this thread has, in fact, awakened my general discomfort with the practice.
In Mexico, my wife had a hairdresser who she regularly tipped and at first the person would always give her back the tip saying she had payed too much. When she said, no it is a propina for good service, the person said thank you. But after several times of that, she noticed the hairdresser had raised her rates to the amount of the total with the tip included. Like if the market will bear this increased amount then I should just charge it all the time. So, I think it is important to understand the cultural significance of what do the local people do and use that as an example of what is "correct" in any given situation.

boat pay

smlslikfish - 3-25-2008 at 04:42 PM

The reason stateside boat/ landing operaters are allowed too pay so little is that they are governed by a differn't set of labor laws. Technically they are not operating on american soil and so are not subject to minimum wage laws, nor do they have to provide workers compensation or disability insurance. That's also why they can serve alcohol yet have no liquor liscence.

smlslikfish - 3-25-2008 at 04:51 PM

Well I've got to go to bed now (night worker). You kids be good while i'm gone O.K.? :spingrin:

pascuale - 3-25-2008 at 05:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve&;Debby
Hey Pascuale,I beg to differ with you,I am also in the pump service and repair buisness. I have never fixed a custom lunch but I sure have bought alot of customers or potential customers lunch. I have been doing water well drilling and service and repair for 40 years and have never recieved a tip. I am just like you,I do the best job possible and charge a fair price (that I can make a living on) with one big difference I DO NOT EXPECT A TIP and do not think anything less of my customer:!::!::!:


Good point, but as a deckhand, I dont set the prices and the captain and owner do. Its part of fishing on a most boats. if i go the extra distance is a show of appreciation. as the man who sets his prices, you probably include the compensation you see fit. As a fisherman on a boat, part of the cost is a tip for service based on that service. You dont have to tip, but next time that head gaff might just be a missed gaff. Fishing is a tip industry, you take clients to lunch or golfing so they will stay clients. As an appreciation they refer your business and continue business with you. I cant tell people when they get on board that my deck services will be an additional $30. Doesnt work that way and never will,. Excellent service puts a smile on my face and usually works out the best in the end with tips, so im happy. the deckies that are jerks to customers should be tipped accordingly. point is, I dont make the prices and no captainis going to include a tip in their ticket cost because no one will fish on their boat just like no restaurant in the U.S, will include a tip on the menu price.

DENNIS - 3-25-2008 at 05:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
In the north we are much clearer about these sort of expectations in urban areas than in rural areas where kinship bonds are primary and people need to barter.


Huh ????? What are you talking about?

Iflyfish - 3-25-2008 at 05:47 PM

Pescador

My brother lived in a number of out of the way places where eventually the tourists came. He enjoyed the natural beauty of the places and lived comfortably till the prices were driven up by the tourists and then new residents. Some in the community who dealt with tourists and new residents prospered, others had their standard of living diminished as prices increased for all who lived there.

I suppose that this is the price of "progress". Change is inevitable and in some ways our only choice is how to deal with it.

This thread has been about the generic "Juan" who provides service for us in Mexico. It happens that there is a real Juan who among his other many talents provides fishing guide service. I have had the honor of fishing with Juan the guide and meeting Shari and their wonderful family. They are pioneers in their area and provide the best service that one could ever hope for in Baja. We love these people and will be back. Asuncion is a warm, safe and welcoming place where one can still experience "the old Baja" Soon word will be out and there will be more and more people in this wonderful place. I hope that anyone who visits them or fishes with Juan will tip generously, they deserve all of the support that we who avail ourselves of their wonderful place can give them, the are Nomads and amigos. Ditto for the people of Asuncion who are also very kind and generous to visitors.

My comments have been meant to be generic and invite you to think about your own position in relation to both getting and giving. We all have a sense of reciprocity if we are not Sociopathic and want everyone to come out well, win-win is the best for everyone. There are cross cultural issues also at play here and I hope I have not offended anyone with my post. In Europe the Germans are famous for their trains running on time, the Italians for their great quisine, but don't expect the trains to run on time.

Mexico is changing and going through growing pains. The world in some ways is becoming smaller. There is a need for more and better understanding accross these cultural and social abyses. I know that I have been seen as stupid for not haggling at times in Mexcio. I know that I have at times paid too much and added to the problems of locals by inflating the economy. I may also have been seen as a cheapskate by some. These are not easy negotiations and in rural and barter communities there is a sense and sensibility that I do not have, locals know how much things cost, outsiders do not. This is why in some ways a fixed percentage of "tip" makes sense. However having said that I know that there are inumberable ways for folks to sort out what is fair and reciprocal. It is in no ones interest in the long run for people to become exploited.

Many fishing communities on the mainland have become cooperativos sp? in relation to fishing and then set a price. I suppose that this is inevitable as locals sort out that there is power in getting together i.e. labor unions. In some ways unbridaled competition can make everyone poorer. Prices inevitably rise and this too is the nature of the beast.

I have enjoyed this thread and hope to read more of peoples thinking on this subject. I think there are a lot of layers to this issue.

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 3-25-2008 at 05:52 PM

pasquale

You wrote: " no restaurant in the U.S, will include a tip on the menu price."

Many fine restaurants in the US do indeed include the gratuity in the bill. Most commonly it is in my experience 18%. In fact I have run into this practice more and more. In the US there is an expectation by the Federal Goverment that waiters and waitresses will be tipped at this rate and build that into their tax burden whether or not they receive the tip. Others who own restaurants can clarify this, I am not an expert on this subject.

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 3-25-2008 at 06:10 PM

Dennis,

You asked: "Huh ????? What are you talking about?" in relation to my commments about urban vs. rural/ kinship based economies.

I will explain by example.

I went back to North Dakota, a rural, agricultural state, where I was born. I was there for two weeks, had not been back in 20 years. I left as a child. While there I was never asked what I did for a living. I was asked who I was related to (kinship bonds). Both my twin brother and myself cashed checks for $200 in a local bank and were not asked for ID. When going into the pharmacy to mail some film the gal at the counter had to go back to talk with the pharmacist to decide whether to charge us or not for the envelopes. The underlying basis of these transactions were not that we were famous, we are from an old and familiar family name and people did not want to offend us and by doing so our extended family by insulting us with checks of ID or paying for a piddling thing. The risk in a small community like this is that one can alienate an entire family by not following the unstated rules about how to deal with locals.

In Oregon where I now live, in a suburb of Portland, I can assure you that I am asked for my ID EVERY time, even by people who have seen my come and go for YEARS! I can assure you that I will be charged every dime that is possible to charge me for every good or service I want and they are clear as can be about that and there is NO NEGOTIATION. The economy is not based upon kinship or relationships and recoprocity but on Money. The use of money is the most impersonal, yet clearest way to exchange goods and services and as societies evolve and more and more communities become dependant upon it.

Hope this clarifies the comment.

Iflyfish

DENNIS - 3-25-2008 at 06:26 PM

OK...Let me ask all of you not so, or fully understanding gratuity tossing Nomads a question which, I hope you will give serious thought to.

Why do you tip?

Is it because the employee deserves and needs more money for the service you agreed to, and did pay for?

Is it because you think the employee is giving you service above and beyond what would be expected for what you payed for? [ what did he do that you didn't assume was his job ]

Is it that you have assumed responsibility for the well being of another mans employee?

Is it that you have assumed that a hard working, prideful man would accept a gift of money? Or that a hard working man would sink to taking it?

Tipping is a reward for subserviance. It's designed for servants. Do you, who pride yourselves in your trade after years of training, consider yourself servants?
Well, your not. What you are when you demand tips is beggars.

Quit doing this. Have some self respect. Demand that your employer pay you a living, repectable wage.

The shame is on the employer and the employee when a mans fair earned wage is tied to charity.

Shame on you tightwad employers and you panhandeling employees. Take care of yourselves.

Oso - 3-25-2008 at 06:27 PM

OK, so we're also talking about other places here although this thread started out describing gringos in Baja as cheapskates. Well, I lived on Cozumel a couple years in the 60s and got by doing what I could, including "steering" paisanos to boat captain friends. I can tell you that every single captain on the island LOVED American tourists and HATED "Turistas Nacionales" (Mexicans- especially Chilangos) The reason? Quite simple. With a few possible exceptions, gringos were described as knowing how to appreciate good service and fellow Mexicans were condemned as cheap and argumentative, always trying to drive the price down, complaining about everything and NEVER tipping anything.

BTW, I also recall that in this time period in Miami Beach, jobs as Bellhops and such were SOLD and payed NOTHING. Minimum wage laws were not enforced. You had to buy the job, usually for several hundred dollars plus buying your own uniform. You rec'd nothing from the Hotel management and sometimes had to fight (and I mean physically) for the best time slots. Conversations with several "Botones" indicated they thought it was worth it.

[Edited on 3-26-2008 by Oso]

Iflyfish - 3-25-2008 at 06:38 PM

Dennis, I tip because it feels good to do so. I also bring back presents from my travels and give them to friends. I recently came back from Florida where they have this wonderful honey called Tupalo. I got jars of it and have given it to most of my neighbors, friends, mailman etc. I just like to be in a generative place in my life. I went to the doc the other day, carried a box of peeps in a brown paper bag, said out loud as I reached in, and the office staff flaired, that I had a Peep specimin to leave with them. They all laughed and talked about Peeps my entire stay. I like to see people smile. It feels good to me to give.

I basicaly agree with your analysis about the economics of the service industry and would like to see people get wages that can adequately support families. Collective bargaining has been the way that this has happened. We would still have child labor and sweat shops, were it not for organized labor, there are more and more sweat shops since deregulation and the very good propoganda that convinced working men and woman that unions were not in their self interest.

Oso, come here boy and let me alter you. You crack me up, way up!

Iflyfish

DENNIS - 3-25-2008 at 06:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oso
HATED "Turistas Nacionales" (Mexicans- especially Chilangos)


They do have a way about them, don't they.

DENNIS - 3-25-2008 at 06:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
come here boy and let me alter you.


A priest once said something like that to me. That's the moment I entered my period of scepticism with the church. I knew the Padre wanted to give me a tip.

Frank - 3-25-2008 at 07:45 PM

I tip because a smile and "I had a great time" isnt enough to express how I feel. I also know how to say Im sorry and didnt mean to offend, if its taken the wrong way.

pascuale - 3-25-2008 at 08:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
pasquale

You wrote: " no restaurant in the U.S, will include a tip on the menu price."

Many fine restaurants in the US do indeed include the gratuity in the bill. Most commonly it is in my experience 18%. In fact I have run into this practice more and more. In the US there is an expectation by the Federal Goverment that waiters and waitresses will be tipped at this rate and build that into their tax burden whether or not they receive the tip. Others who own restaurants can clarify this, I am not an expert on this subject.

Iflyfish


Geez havent seen that one unless im going with a party of 8 or more. Every crew member would love it if the government made a manditory 18% tip included in the ticket. Name five restaurants that include tip with a two person party, just for my curiousity.

Steve&Debby - 3-25-2008 at 08:19 PM

Pascuale, Believe it or not I have been known to tip for exceptional service,I took my family out fishing in Fort Bragg California and I did tip the boat owner $100.00. We caught our limit of Salmon and they were fillet and bagged.

Dennis, Wow I could not have said it better my self. At one time I had up to 30 employees and I paid them what I figured I could afford according to the prices I could charge for my services. My employees were never chained and shackeld to the job and forced to work.In other words it's a free country and if they figured they could not survive on what I could pay then they were welcome to get another job that could pay them what they needed.

DENNIS - 3-25-2008 at 08:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
I basicaly agree with your analysis about the economics of the service industry


What is the difference between a sport fishing boat and a tour bus?
You pay for an assumed reward. Is the reward greater when a tip is involved? Seemingly so on the boat but, not on the bus.
They're both service related enterprises but, only one has a traditional requirement of gratuities. Why? If the bus drivers suddeny said, "You will, from this day forward, give us some of your money before you leave the bus," would you be up in arms saying, "Hell yes. This man works really hard and I'll give him a handful of my money. After all, he just told me I would."
I doubt it.

Don't get me wrong folks. Fewer and smaller tips is NOT my point. Better pay from employers is. If they have to raise their prices to do this....fine. Do it. Otherwise the government should make the tipped segment of society our deductible dependent.

BMG - 3-25-2008 at 08:52 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by smlslikfish In Juan's case he's charging $ 100. Subtract the cost/ effort of procuring fuel/oil, factor in cost of boat/motor/ maintenance/ launch vehicle. He's giving all of you a goodguy price. It seems to me that the least you all could do is let him know it's appreciated. (in gringo terms that means TIP GENEROUSLY)........ GOD I LOVE THIS PLACE!!


You are very good at reminding us to tip generously so you won't think of us as cheapskates, but you still haven't defined what an adequate or generous tip is for the $100 panga. Seems like somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% is what most people recommend on this board. Is this enough in your mind?
Quote:
Originally posted by shari
but very few clients have tipped him

hey $5 for a six pack goes a long way!


This does surprise me. Especially after reading most of the comments here about tipping. And a $5 tip seems like almost an insult to me.

gibson - 3-25-2008 at 09:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Frank
I tip because a smile and "I had a great time" isnt enough to express how I feel. I also know how to say Im sorry and didnt mean to offend, if its taken the wrong way.


wow real sorry to see that your upbringing emphasized BS priorities!!

DENNIS - 3-25-2008 at 09:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BMG

This does surprise me. Especially after reading most of the comments here about tipping. And a $5 tip seems like almost an insult to me.


Depends on the brand of beer. Pacifico...Sí. Corona....No.

Anyway, the tipper decides the proper amount. Isn't that the idea of this completely bloated concept?

BMG - 3-25-2008 at 09:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Anyway, the tipper decides the proper amount. Isn't that the idea of this completely bloated concept?


Maybe that's the way it used to be, but it's hard to argue that it's not the way things are now. Not many people that I know eat a meal at a restaurant and don't leave a tip. Used to the 'normal' tip was 10%. Then it went to 10%-15%. Now the 'normal' is 15%-20%.

When we were sailing in French Polynesia it was actually quite nice not having to worry about local customs on how much and when to tip as tipping isn't part of their culture. (At least it wasn't, can't say about now,)

Since moving to La Paz, I find the norm is to tip much more frequently to more people than in the states. Can't say that I like it. Maybe it's because I live in Baja and I've been labeled a "cheapskate".

Steve&Debby - 3-25-2008 at 09:40 PM

Dennis,Nailed it again:yes::yes::yes: But you know a cold cervesa on a hot day has no name.:lol::lol::lol::lol:

Oh, As a side note I want to thank all of you that have been there for me in my fledgling times,Thank You. I think this post will actually make me a real Nomad.Post #100 Yippy:tumble::tumble::tumble::tumble::tumble::tumble:

PS Please NO TIPS

[Edited on 3-26-2008 by Steve&;Debby]

Tomas Tierra - 3-25-2008 at 09:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by smlslikfish
REMEMBER to..... TIP YOUR CREW :saint:



!!!!!

Bob H - 3-25-2008 at 09:45 PM

Ya know what... my take on this... most people tip appropriately - a few don't. It's part of this type of business I think. I can't believe that there are five pages of this thread to tell you the truth.
Bob H

DENNIS - 3-25-2008 at 09:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BMG
Since moving to La Paz, I find the norm is to tip much more frequently to more people than in the states.


Yeah...That's the way it is up here as well. It's a gratuity nightmare. Everybody wants a tip without our understanding of what a tip is...or was. They just want free money.
It's expanding in practice. The locals, none of them poor by any means, will put their high school aged kids in the streets, stopping traffic with collection cans for purposes such as graduation [?] or horseback ride vacations, amongst other things. My parents would have beat my ass had I ever done such a prideless thing.

DENNIS - 3-25-2008 at 10:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob H
I can't believe that there are five pages of this thread to tell you the truth.
Bob H


Oh well, we havn't beaten a dead horse for a while. I don't think this one has pushed any report buttons as of yet. Hope not, anyway.

Is "beaten" a word?

shari - 3-25-2008 at 11:06 PM

believe us...at the end of a fishing trip and cleaning alot of fish...a six pack of cold tecate is NOT an insult!!!! In our part of the woods...er...desert...it aint the amount...it's the thought...and that's a load of caca that you can tip too much...no way man. It's all relative. Hey, if I could afford to tip a hundred smackeroos when a family helped me change a tire, towed my car into their yard, fed me lobster tacos...etc...etc...I'd do it every time. Iflyfish feels happy when he gives...I"ve seen his happy face and was glad to make him happy by accepting his generous gifts....win win, happy happy..nighty night

Dennis, what language are you speaking?

Sharksbaja - 3-25-2008 at 11:42 PM

Personally I don't think you have a clue. Do you yourself tip? WTF for?

Yes we are all servants(would you like a cold beer, what type of sauce?) but no is begging allowed.:lol:

Frankly Iam surprised at your comments but you just never know how people feel about others by what they do to make money or those that pay them.

What other meaningless demoralizing jobs bother you? Exactly what type of noble biz are you in where you can make such pronouncements without due diligence and about others livelyhoods? Pretty darn pompous in my book.

Your presumption and blanket comments that employers don't pay enough is way off base.

Do you know the minimum wage in Oregon? In New York? In Arizona? Do you know how hard it is to pay wages and taxes and bla bla bla for employees?

So how much do you suppose is fair and we should pay our help per hour????

In my biz, I pay for employees to work regardless of how many royal highnesses are out there wanting service.

.How many and what should we give them ?

After all, I don't want Dennis thinking I am a tightwad.

When they do have to wait or be near you they get more money. It's why they put up with you and your demands, because YOU ACTUALLY PAY THEM TO!

One outta ten new restaurants will succeed past three years? Do you know why?


Do you know any of this stuff?

I am sorry we don't share the same pleasure when giving someone money they worked hard for. Personally I feel good about it, and sad for you.

end of pant


btw, it is more common than ever in CA. to be charged a % automatically. Bad, and motivates nobody, insures nada.



[Edited on 3-27-2008 by Sharksbaja]

Pompano - 3-26-2008 at 04:30 AM

All the world loves a lover because he tips so generously.

DENNIS - 3-26-2008 at 07:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sharksbaja
Do you yourself tip?




So how much do you suppose is fair and we should pay our help per hour????







I tip heavily. I told you...fifteen years a bartender in Newport Beach and other places. If I have to explain any more than that, then you're the one who hasn't a clue.

I don't have any idea what you pay your help. I do know that if a person devotes his full time working for you, he should be paid by YOU an amount to support himself with at least the basics of life. This tipping crap has gotten out of hand.
Raise your prices, pay your help a living wage, advertise "no tipping allowed" and quit offering best service for the best tip. If you can't do your best without added incentive, you're running nothing other than a hoar house.

Don't tell me I don't understand, Corky. I do understand.
Now, go thaw out some Chinese mercury for the dinner crowd.

Diver - 3-26-2008 at 08:26 AM

Interesting thought Dennis.

Tell me why the food service (and all other) businesses couldn't eliminate tipping. Raise your rates, pay your help more and expect them to perform at all times ? In food service in particular, tipping is transparent at 15-20% expected as a minimum.

Or maybe we, as a culture, like to tip ?
At least maybe when you receive more than you expect ?

.

Diver - 3-26-2008 at 08:29 AM

Hose A,

You are an evil moderator for posting that shot of my dear departed burro "Tipper" as we found him in our back yard the night the coyotes came.
.

Halboo - 3-26-2008 at 08:36 AM

TIP JUAN!!!!


If there was ever anybody who deserved a nice propina, it's this man!

tripledigitken - 3-26-2008 at 08:48 AM

Note to self:

Bring extra krocodiles, large chrome!

:cool:

[Edited on 3-26-2008 by tripledigitken]

DENNIS - 3-26-2008 at 08:57 AM

I've seen that horse before. It's something like the green flash before the sun sinks over the horizon.
OK....I'm done. [I think]

smlslikfish - 3-26-2008 at 10:32 AM

Well folks this has been a ball!!! BUT it does seem to be going on a bit. Hope everyone learned something one way or the other. I'm off to my little corner of baja just as soon as I turn off the computer. See ya next week.:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
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