BajaNomad - netting cabrilla in Loreto

netting cabrilla in Loreto

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Roberto - 5-13-2008 at 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
The last few Posts are those of the Current Generation of Folks with Words and no Substance.
Skeet/Loreto

Skeet, whatever else you have accomplished in your life, and I have no doubt that it was a lot, you are shaming yourself now.

I doubt that your Christian belief lead you to think so little of others and hold yourself above all others? Shame on you!

Diver - 5-13-2008 at 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
The last few Posts are those of the Current Generation of Folks with Words and no Substance.
Skeet/Loreto

Well said Roberto. "Shame on you Skeet."

Sharksbaja - 5-13-2008 at 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja
My problem with optimal sustainable yields are such that these numbers are derived not only from real data but also from assumption, speculation and theory.

As I recall the yields are calculated annually by sampling the population to determine it's size and relative age classes. Knowing the reproductive capacity of each class allows them to plot an S curve from which they determine the number of individuals that can be harvested to keep the stocks growing at their maximums. I thought they adjusted the allowable catch each year based upon the collected samples of that year. But you're right, fishing regulations had been set for years in my state. However, now we are seeing new numbers each year.

Anyway, we, in alta california, haven't really done a very good job. Even with the proximity of some of the best universities in the world. So what can we expect from the natives of baja. Personally, I think this infusion of gringo anglers is overall good for baja.

Darn good perception Skipjack! The science though sincere in context barely addresses many factors which ultimately could help retrieve the knowledge necessary to predict current and future stocks.
Using the sabastes (sp.)complex as a template for quantifying accuracy accumulated by researchers we come to find conflicting data.
On one hand, sampling done by NOAA and state F&G has provided numbers that conversely are rejected by local skippers and commercial fishermen.
That is not to say that certain stressed species have been identified but the method of expressing the numbers collectively may not and most likely does not represent the true condition of a particular species, location or habitat. In other words, they have been grouping groundfish and thusly publishing(imo) skewed data.

You are right Skip, regs set in one year do not accurately reflect the most current findings. More than that, but when new facts are published they more often than not jump to conclusions when instituting new rules and regs.

Don't misread me, the regs are necessary to address various fisheries. I must agree that Gringos do bring with them to Mexico an amount of education based on our own delemmas. It is to the great benefit of Mexico that waters that many of us promote ideals of protecting a variety of animals.

Will any of our own conscientious behavior help resolve or influence any related problems south of the border. I say yes.

Thanks to the many folks here and there that do give a ratsass in any country.. :yes:

Skeet/Loreto - 5-14-2008 at 06:20 AM

******
********************************************* ************************

As and ole Timer on the Sea of Cortez I have only releated my Experiences, the Last was a Month ago when I fished as I did 20 and 30 years ago, All Facts[ Fish every where Bait by the Millions, Whales, Sharks, Dolphins, Yellowtail by the Thousands!

Question: Why after several years of Decline in some Areas, such as the Park, have the Fish shown as they have?????

Question: Why are there Less Commercials on the Water than in the Past??

Words: The Sky is Falling!!!

Substance: The Fish are There; Go see!

Skeet/Of the Sea

[Edited on 5-15-2008 by Hose A]

flyfishinPam - 5-18-2008 at 08:52 PM

Hey Don or anyone else out there that gets any more pictures of violations in the Loreto Marine Park please post them on this board. the bajanomad fishing forum

If possible post as a new thread for each complaint of a particular violation.

I am hoping to create a log of violations and complaints and the responses and actions of the Marine Park as it pertains to them. I hope that makes sense.

I want to consolidate this log at this website
http://www.bajabigfish.com/marinepark.html

and present it to the organizations that fund this park. The park needs to be held responsible for their actions or inaction in this case. While I do appreciate what the park has done so far in terms of education programs and clean-ups they are seriously dropping the ball on this issue!

I could create my own log on my own server but this one (bajanomad.com) is already in place and its better than I can put together so quickly. If each complaint keeps its own thread then the other files that need to be added to it such as information, e-mails to and from the park and images can be kept together.

[Edited on 5-19-2008 by flyfishinPam]

Iflyfish - 5-18-2008 at 09:49 PM

Sharks, I appreciate your reference to studies. Is there a literature on this subject. What can it tell us?

Opinions are cheap, individual observations unreliable, where is the science?

From what Sharks, Skeet and others have written it seems like the subject is a moving target, literally. So studying it in one place may not provide adequate information as to the risks to the entire population. These are issues for legitimate research. Is this happening? Can anyone cite findings?

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 5-18-2008 at 10:04 PM

I find the following in a Google search on Fish Populations in the Sea of Cortez:

http://www.seawatch.org/bibliography/bibliography.php

Are all of these studies wrong? Are they all biased? Are they all pot addled Berkley Grads?

I found a lot of research on the subject via this search. Is it all just opinion as the current batch of right wing ideologues would have us believe. Is all science just opinion like the "theory" of evolution? Is it not true that god will look out for us and the species that support us so science is nonsense at least and useless at best because it is just opinion?

There are those who oppose science because they see it as anti god and those that see a god in nature so anything that "interferes" with nature is "evil". This "naturalism" is of course just another form of religion. We had better pay attention to our science, not to do so is to risk of our own peril.

There are some ecosystems that indeed will never come back. There indeed are species that have gone extinct on our watch. To deny this reality is to whistle in the face of our own potential extinction, which some right wing religious neo-con policy makers believe to be in our interest as it will hasten Armageddon, an event longed for by many of them.

To quote Ronald Reagan when confronted with the imminent loss of the Redwoods said "If you want to see a tree, look at a picture"

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 5-18-2008 at 10:10 PM

FlyfishingPam,

My hat is off to you! You are not letting this issue go! Nor are you allowing the issue to be re-defined.

Excellent documentation and good resources for those with a stake in this issue. Clear as a bell!

Fundamental to good science is sound observation and you provide it here in incontrovertible means.

Iflyfish

Skipjack Joe - 5-19-2008 at 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
To quote Ronald Reagan when confronted with the imminent loss of the Redwoods said "If you want to see a tree, look at a picture"

... and he had the gall to tell Ansel Adams that he considerated himself to be an outdoorsman. Why? Because he loved to spend time on his ranch in Santa Barbara.

Robin Reagan of Redwood Forest?

Pompano - 5-19-2008 at 09:07 AM

Was that him I saw going up the coastal route a few years back?

Or..could it have been....Sasquatch!

- 0 (Custom).jpg - 47kB

Iflyfish - 5-19-2008 at 09:16 AM

Wow! A pic of both Reagan and Trees!

Good one!

Iflyfish

Skipjack Joe - 5-19-2008 at 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
I find the following in a Google search on Fish Populations in the Sea of Cortez:

http://www.seawatch.org/bibliography/bibliography.php

Well, that's what's interesting. There are numerous articles with numbers that show declining fisheries. But I found none that contain data estimating fish populations (yes, the two are related). I would appreciate any links to measurements of fish stocks over a period of time.

Pescador - 5-19-2008 at 10:43 AM

Therin lies the major problem. If you were a cattle rancher you would know exactly how many head of cattle you have and the physical and perhaps emotional state of those cattle. Now fish, on the other hand, are subject to interpretations of those who are neither scientifically trained or as in the case of my friend Skeet, not even scientifically oriented, then you have a real problem with a qualitative analysis of something that is pretty much invisible. That may explain a whole lot of the superstitions surrounding fishing as we believe we have better luck without bananas on the boat or some other well thought out belief.
Salmon management in Alaska totally amazed me and they have developed very accurate and precise methods to accurately measure the numbers of fish going up any given stream and are thereby able to more carefully manage the whole situation. I have trouble believing that might happen in my lifetime in Mexico.

Pompano - 5-19-2008 at 10:59 AM

Right, Igor...Just how many fish ARE there left in the sea? And who/how/where are the studies? It would have to be just a good guess-timate at best.

When that last one is caught..like the last Auk...then we will know.

Rest in Peace, Fish of the Cortez...I knew thee well.

p.s. Like Pescador mentions, Alaskan efforts to increase salmon stocks have succeeded well in the last few years. Plus the ability to accurately count the returning salmon is a major factor. We were involved in the commercial salmon business there a long time ago...kings and reds mostly..and always waited to hear the escapement numbers on the vhf radio put out by the Game and Fish Dept. This was mandatory...AND ENFORCED...you cheat, you go to jail and lose it all.

Many other landlocked fisheries are prospering around the nation and in Canada. Lake Sakakawea is full of pike and walleyes..thanks to a well-managed system and introduction of suitable forage fish like the rainbow smelt. It's all about good science and regulation. I could site many other lakes, rivers, and watersheds...but you get the idea. You have to WANT to make an improvement.

[Edited on 5-19-2008 by Pompano]

Skipjack Joe - 5-19-2008 at 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador

Salmon management in Alaska totally amazed me and they have developed very accurate and precise methods to accurately measure the numbers of fish going up any given stream and are thereby able to more carefully manage the whole situation. I have trouble believing that might happen in my lifetime in Mexico.

Excellent!

I'm glad you brought this example up Jim. I wanted to last week but am often accused of straying from the subject.

I too was amazed at the sophistication of fish management in Alaska. The fish limit changes DAILY. Fishermen are expected to read the paper before they venture out and know what they can bring home. Their streams are monitored in realtime, knowing exactly (pretty close) how much spawn is required to maintain their fish stocks and how much spawn has been produced at any point in time. Once that threshhold is reached the limits suddenly change and alaskans are welcome to pursue their sport.

The science is put into effect and works as it should. They've had a very stable sportfishery for some time now.

In one respect managing cabrilla is doable. They don't migrate. They have a defined territory and the marine parks at least are small enough that with proper sampling and statistics you should be able to get close numbers. It's not unlike the measurements of fish stocks at the Channel Islands the CADFG has done.

The thirld world countries have many disadvantages. But there is one big advantage they all have. And that's that all of the science has already been done for them by the leading powers. We've already made our mistakes and learned from them. And now it's available for Mexico.

P.S. by the time I finish writing you've already posted your comments, Pompano. Good, I just support them.

[Edited on 5-19-2008 by Skipjack Joe]

Cypress - 5-19-2008 at 01:27 PM

Ever heard of the "Tragedy of the Commons"? :?:

Capt. George - 5-19-2008 at 01:40 PM

Is that the story of the working mans life Cypress?

Cypress - 5-19-2008 at 01:57 PM

Capt. George,

The only "Commons" left is the "Deep Blue Sea".

Most working men don't have a clue.

They're hard pressed to make it from one paycheck to the next.

Skipjack Joe - 5-19-2008 at 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Capt. George,

The only "Commons" left is the "Deep Blue Sea".

Interesting you should bring that up. I read just a few weeks ago that the most numerous species of fish on our planet lives at somewhere like 4000 feet below the surface. It's about the size of a sardine. I guess we just haven't come up with nets that go down that deep. These rascals have evaded us.

Capt. George - 5-19-2008 at 02:55 PM

They sure are Cypress, the destruction of the Unions no small part of that.

Corporate America rules...what next?, nine year olds back in the Fall River sweat shops?

Pompano - 5-19-2008 at 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Capt. George,

The only "Commons" left is the "Deep Blue Sea".

I read just a few weeks ago that the most numerous species of fish on our planet lives at somewhere like 4000 feet below the surface. It's about the size of a sardine. I guess we just haven't come up with nets that go down that deep. These rascals have evaded us.

...and now a vast multitude of small starfish have been discovered covering the ocean floor beneath the polar cap. What's Japanese for starfish sushi?

Cypress - 5-19-2008 at 03:03 PM

Yummy??

Iflyfish - 5-19-2008 at 07:25 PM

Skipjack, you ask a good question, one that is indeed difficult to answer. There are studies of fish in the Sea of Cortez but few that actually count numbers of fish as has been done with the Salmon in the US, BC and Alaska. There are too many species with too many different life cycles, habitats etc. The ones that inhabit local areas are probably easiest to keep watch and count of. With improved fishing methods, as described by IflyfishPam, the counts of many species are indeed a moving target.

There are however species that have indeed become extinct or near extinction due to over fishing and they appear below.

Harvesting methods in the Sea of Cortez are focus of criticism
By Mike Lee
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
March 8, 2005

The Gulf of California has been the subject of several studies, including one conducted last year by several Mexican scientists and Enric Sala, associate director of the Center for Marine Biodiversity and Conservation at Scripps.
The report, published in Fisheries magazine, said the gulf has been "fished down" during the last 30 years as fisheries have shifted from larger, long-lived species to smaller, short-lived species.
The researchers also found a decrease in the size of fish caught and concluded that it is generally harder to catch fish.
"These results suggest that coastal fisheries in the Gulf of California are unsustainable and their management needs to be re-evaluated with sound regulatory measures to prevent further degradation of coastal food webs," the article said.
By drawing attention to the endangered California gulf porpoise, the council hopes to spur action for a complex web of environmental and social issues in northern Mexico. It is targeting illegal fishing and catch-all shrimp harvesting techniques in a sea where Mexican scientists and the Scripps Institution of Oceanography in La Jolla have documented a serious decline in the health of fisheries.
The spotted dolphin is considered the species most affected by tuna purseseining.
In Mexican waters the population of coastal spotted dolphins, a subspecies,
is estimated to be only 42 percent of its former size, while offshore spotted
dolphins are estimated to be only a fourth of their pre-exploitation numbers.
http://www.acsonline.org/factpack/SpottedDolphin.htm
The best approximation of vaquita abundance is from a comprehensive
survey done in 1997, which estimated the population at 500 to 600 hundred
individuals. This population estimate places the vaquita in the top twenty-five of the rarest mammals in the world. Vaquita are currently listed in the IUCN Red List of Threatened Species as Critically Endangered.
http://www.vaquitamarina.org/english/index.html
The world's youngest sea, the Sea of Cortez was created when the East
Pacific Rise split the Baja Peninsula from Mexico starting ~5 million years ago. Itis home to 875 species of fish and 32 species of marine mammals, all of which have been killed indiscriminately for years.
(SeaWiFS image courtesy of NASA)
Web Reference
http://www.seawatch.org/index.php
"The two most commonly caught "jumbo" shrimp of the Mexican fishery are
the brown shrimp, Penaeus californiensis (shown above), and the blue shrimp, Penaeus stylirostris. Shrimp are caught by otter trawls that are dragged over the sea floor for miles scraping up sea life in their path. It is the most destructive method of commercial fishing in the world since the trawls kill and waste millions of tons of marine animals, including the juveniles of several species of commercial fishes, especially the endangered totoaba." Dr. Donald A. Thomson
http://eebweb.arizona.edu/marine/gulf_ca/ecology.htm
For generations, these fleets have trawled and netted for shrimp in the
shallow waters surrounding the Colorado River Delta, and even inside the Alto Golfo Biosphere Reserve which was protected in 1993. Despite the presence of two endemic endangered species (the vaquita or Gulf of California harbor porpoise, Phocoena sinus, and the totoaba, Cynoscion macdonaldi, a big sea bass), and laws protecting the area of the Biosphere Reserve dating back as far as 1955, the shrimp industry gradually lost control of itself. The unrestrained, go-for-broke attitude of the Department of Fisheries resulted in disastrous over fishing, disruption of the fragile sea bottom, and an incidental "by-catch" rate of about 95 percent. The entire Alto Golfo fishery, even including the fantastic original shrimp population, became an economic and biological wasteland.
Only two years after the election of President Fox—and his choice of Victor
Lichtinger as his Secretary of Natural Resources—a new vision is emerging that sees Mexico's fish as a national patrimony, owned not by the fishermen, but by the population at large. For the first time, fishing is being seen not as an inherent right, but as a privilege granted by all the people of Mexico, to be exercised only on the condition that the resource is respected and preserved for future generations.

http://www.bajadestinations.com/afish/afish2002/afish021104/...

biology/oceanography Professor Donald A. Thomson, who has studied the Sea of Cortez since 1963. "But it'll eventually happen unless we do something about it."
"We have seen very, very few sharks in the sea. Sharks are very rare," said Enric Sala, deputy director of the Center for Marine Biodiversity and Conservation at the University of California in San Diego.
Sala estimates shark populations are down to 10 percent of what they were 50 years ago because of over fishing. Retired University of Arizona marine biology/oceanography Professor Donald A. Thomson estimates turtle populations also are down to 10 percent of what their population once was. Thomson has studied the Sea of Cortez since 1963.

A "dead zone" the size of Pennsylvania sits in the Gulf of Mexico because 65 percent of the lower 48 states drain their wastewater into the Mississippi, Cousteau said.

Endangered species in the Sea of Cortez include:

Greater Black sea turtle

Hawksbill sea turtle

Giant Leatherback sea turtle

Olive Ridley sea turtle

Loggerhead sea turtle

Totoaba, fish that grows up to 6 feet and up to 300 pounds

Vaquita, one of five species of porpoise in the world

Humpback whale

Blue whale

Fish in danger of being overfished in the Sea of Cortez:

Mahi-mahi (also known as Dorado)

Swordfish

Marlin

Yellowtail

Sailfish

Manta ray

Of the 400 shark species in the world, about 150 live in the Sea of Cortez. At least eight are in danger of being killed off by shark fishing or finning, or both including:

Hammerhead shark

Blue shark

Bull shark

Sand shark

Tiger shark

Mako shark

Great White shark

Thresher shark

*Source: Amigos del Mar de Cortes/Friends of the Sea of Cortez

Source: http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/

Ilfyfish

Don Alley - 5-19-2008 at 09:30 PM

Interesting info, Iflyfish.

A couple of years ago, at a public meeting in Loreto dealing with the then-proposed tourism development plan, a biologist from La Paz had a simpler explanation of the data on the Sea of Cortez fisheries.

He simply said there is no data. None.

Endangered vaqueta, and no population estimates in 10 years? Deliberate. All deliberate. Conapesca does not want to know. And all the "biosphere" and "marine park" window dressing is all compartmentalized in different agencies; Conapesca remains 100% devoted into liquidating Mexico's fish, and any marine mammals or turtles that get in the way.

Iflyfish - 5-19-2008 at 11:20 PM

Don, what you report would not surprise me. Greed is a human trait, not one of our finest, but shared by all along with the other deadly six. I know there was a time in my life when I wanted to catch till my back and arms hurt so bad that I could catch no more. I also want to eat the entire cake and all the cookies too.

I once found a Native American fishing net that went from one shore to the other of a favorite stream where I fished for steelhead. Not a single fish could have escaped had the net not been destroyed. This in the face of clear laws and common sense.

I guess that it often takes a crisis to get our attention. The alarm bells are ringing.

Iflyfsih

Can animals count?

Skipjack Joe - 5-21-2008 at 12:39 PM

... I asked my dad as a youngster.

Sure they can, was his response. Each animal has the ability to count to a certain number. A chicken, for example, can only count to 2.

How do you know that, I wanted to know.

Well, you can remove eggs from a chickens nest without any problems until you come down to the last two. After that, it begins to squawk and raise a ruckus.

And that's the way it will be with the cortez fisheries.

Cypress - 5-21-2008 at 01:06 PM

Skipjack Joe, Your dad was a smart man. :bounce:

Your observation reflects the fact that you inherited the trait. :bounce:

Skeet/Loreto - 5-23-2008 at 04:50 PM

Why? Why? Why?

Did I on my recent trip fishing out of Mulege se 3/4 Mile of yellowtail Schools, millions of Bait Thousands of Fat Pelicans, Dolphins. Amberjack and at least 10 Shark at about 400 Lbs. each.

The sharks were taken for Livers in the 40"s, for Food in the 60's and yet they are so abduant that they are again being taken.
could it be that the Research done , the conclusions Drawn in 1963 have proven to be invalid??
I think so!

It would be Great if some of these so called Scientist would take along some one with "Commom Sense" and do a year long study of the Sea of cortez.
You Birds cannot Ruin the Sea. Why? Because the fish leave and come back at different times!

Skeet/Loreto

Cypress - 5-23-2008 at 05:00 PM

Skeet/Loreto, I was once advised to show more respect for my elders.

But that didn't include respecting stupidity. :no:

pargo - 5-23-2008 at 05:06 PM

Don't do drugs but jus for the heck of it, let me get some of that Skeet. I'd like to live in that tele tubby world of yours for awhile

Pescador - 5-24-2008 at 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Why? Why? Why?

Did I on my recent trip fishing out of Mulege se 3/4 Mile of yellowtail Schools, millions of Bait Thousands of Fat Pelicans, Dolphins. Amberjack and at least 10 Shark at about 400 Lbs. each.

The sharks were taken for Livers in the 40"s, for Food in the 60's and yet they are so abduant that they are again being taken.
could it be that the Research done , the conclusions Drawn in 1963 have proven to be invalid??
I think so!

It would be Great if some of these so called Scientist would take along some one with "Commom Sense" and do a year long study of the Sea of cortez.
You Birds cannot Ruin the Sea. Why? Because the fish leave and come back at different times!

Skeet/Loreto

Skeet, the fishing has been dismal this year out of Mulege. Since I do a weekly report for Western Outdoor News and Mexfish, I am in constant communication with fishermen in our area as well as the Mulege area. What you were fortunate enough to experience was a movement of migrating yellowtail. Not to many years ago we had those movements going on all the time and you did not need to target an area since there were fish in almost all areas of their migrational pattern. I have seen the same type of waves that you describe, but I have also seen times when I waited for a week during very good tides for new fish to show. I am a more effective fisherman than I was 5 years ago but I find that I have to travel further and work harder than at any time of catching yellowtail since the early 60's.
So you are correct, it is anything but a "Dead Sea" out there, but the destructive practice of hookah netting spawning fish is having a definite effect on stocks. The big challenge is that it is hard to convince the mexican fisherman that stocks are dwindling because they are seeing the same picture as Skeet. By the time that the yellowtail stocks dwindle to the same point as the totuava, then it may well be too late to ever recover.
But the real challenge seems to be what to do about it. I talk and share stories with the local fishermen but unless the law gets enforced they are not about to significantly change their practices.

Capt. George - 5-24-2008 at 07:43 AM

The fishermen full well know the stocks are dwindling, they simply refuse to believe it. No commercial fishermen will willingly limit their catch. If they don't catch that "last one" someone else will.

Rules governing pounds caught and methods used has to be mandated by the Government of Mexico (fat chance) and "strictly" enforced.

I have limited experience in Baja, but I have seen the benefits of restrictions and limits in the North East U.S.A when enacted after "proven scientific data" was amassed.

Iflyfish - 5-24-2008 at 12:07 PM

Skeet and Pescador's discussion points to the limitations of using individual observation to make conclusions, particularly conclusions with such drastic consequences. Scientific observation is much needed and quantifying numbers of fish stock is vital as pointed out by SkipJack.

There are lots of studies that demonstrate how observer bias scews data. I recall my time as a lab assistant in a Behavioral Lab, each student had a rat to train in their Skinner box. You know, rat hits lever, gets pellet, hits lever, gets another pellet etc. Well, after the students trained their rats to press the heck out of the bar and then trained them to stop hitting the bar they took a final. One of the questions was: What was your rat thinking as it went through this training. You should have seen the pages produced. The real answer to the question of course is: Who knows, rats don't talk and we can't read their minds!"

Iflyfish

Don Alley - 5-24-2008 at 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
Skeet and Pescador's discussion points to the limitations of using individual observation to make conclusions, particularly conclusions with such drastic consequences. Scientific observation is much needed and quantifying numbers of fish stock is vital as pointed out by SkipJack.

There are lots of studies that demonstrate how observer bias scews data. I recall my time as a lab assistant in a Behavioral Lab, each student had a rat to train in their Skinner box. You know, rat hits lever, gets pellet, hits lever, gets another pellet etc. Well, after the students trained their rats to press the heck out of the bar and then trained them to stop hitting the bar they took a final. One of the questions was: What was your rat thinking as it went through this training. You should have seen the pages produced. The real answer to the question of course is: Who knows, rats don't talk and we can't read their minds!"

Iflyfish

The problem with the argument that scientific information is needed is that when none is available, the "default" position seems to be to continue current practices. So those with a vested interest in those practices have an incentive to block funding for such studies.

Where fisheries data is available, often much of that data is the systematic collection of anecdotal evidence.

Another option for the Sea of Cortez would be to assume that the results of certain practices, such as trawling and gillnetting, would be similar to the results where data was collected, or that ending such practices may have similar results to areas where such prohibitions have been enacted. Such examples do exist.

Lack of scientific documentation should not prohibit common sense, or a broad consensus among user groups, and justify harmful practices.

Anyway, in the Loreto area the alleged "Marine Park" may be revising their management plan. Hopefully we'll get something better than no nets on odd days of the month that fall on Tuesdays over rocky bottoms near this island but not that island unless you have a permit.

Pompano - 5-24-2008 at 01:21 PM

The attitude by many commercial interests on netting in the Loreto and other Cortez areas reminds me of a certain 'in' question designed to help students earn required philosophy credits in college.

Define truth and beauty.

Everyone wrote their earnest drivel as only sophmores can do...(we all had pipes in those days..and sometimes even smoked them.)

The professor said any answer would work, but his humor liked this answer:

Truth..the answer to the question is: I do not know.

The beauty is: I don't give a damn.

This is the prevalent answer in netting cabrilla, I expect.

Cypress - 5-24-2008 at 02:46 PM

The Sea of Cortez is done.

How do you spell "history"? :?:

Everybody has memories.

Iflyfish - 5-24-2008 at 04:46 PM

Popano and Don

Your points are well taken. Global warming is well documented. Yet there are those in power who would deny this and reguire more science. Testing, counting fish etc. for the sake of the exercise is useless at best and an enabling act, perhaps. I know from my reading that there is a serious problem in the Sea of Cortez and if nothing is done there will be many totouvas (irony intended).

Iflyfish

Iflyfish

Barry A. - 5-24-2008 at 05:29 PM

Fish------

I don't know anybody who "denies" Global warming, either in power, or out of power----------what is causing it is the question, and what can be done about it is probably a non-issue as most science that I know of admits that "man" can affect it very little, if at all.

As I am sure you realize many Climatologists think the we are headed into another Ice Age, and that this very real "global warming" is probably just a blip in the long term trend of global cooling.

The political question is how much time and resources do we expend in attempting to do something that will most probably have little or no effect on the outcome? If we implement what the advocates of "doing something" tell us, then there is a very real probability of ruining the global economy---------is it worth it??? I personally don't think so.

Having said that, as a Capitolist, I am all for doing things that will clean up our air and environment as long as it does not preclude the stability of the worlds advancing economy to a point of ruining what we (mankind) have achieved to date, or worse.

Barry

Skeet/Loreto - 5-25-2008 at 09:13 AM

I for one do not believe in the so-called "Global Warming"!!
I beleive in "Nature", I beleive in People and the People surrounding Global Wqrming leave much to be desired!
As some people gain wealth Hard work, many , will use their Abilities to instill Fear in to people to obtain the money. Example- The Current Political Climate.

Having been on the Sea of Cortez for nearly 40 years I , as a Trained Investigator have qarthered and observed "Facts" .
Has the so-called Scientist observed "Where do the fish Go", then come back?? When the Sierra were taken, the yellowtail moved to other locsations, Is that not Nature?
When the Longliners covered the Sea Mouth, How and why did the fish come Back??

If I only observed a single Happening on my recent visit, What of those happenings that were not Observed by anyone?

I am starting to see that many of the Posters do not have any "Faith" in Nature.It seems as if it is an Afflication of the Generation in that they are awaiting for the next "Preacher of Doom" to send their money Too!

Have Faith!
And by the Way after next Tuesday I am going to have 20 years added to my Life, so you Naysayers can get ready for "Ole Skeet" to give you Hell about the Great Sea of cortez/
Having a Double Heart Bypass and the doctor told me it would add another 20 to my already Good Life.

So be ready to Prove your Words, I will only speak of Facts. Might even come back and spend a Year on the Cortez.

Skeet/Loreto

Ken Bondy - 5-25-2008 at 09:25 AM

Good luck in your operation Skeet!
++Ken++

Barry A. - 5-25-2008 at 09:29 AM

Skeet----------that is great news on your "restored" heart about to happen-----------I know that you will be a "new man" after that.

Our thoughts and prayers will be with you. Looking forward to many more posts and wisdom from you-----for years to come.

Best, Barry

Iflyfish - 5-25-2008 at 09:32 AM

Skeet

My best to your on your surgery. I will be here upon your return and hopefully have another twenty myself to continue this dialogue.

Iflyfish

Pompano - 5-25-2008 at 10:17 AM

I'll see you out by Ille del Fonso, Skeet. Godspeed.

Pompano

Cypress - 5-25-2008 at 10:34 AM

Skeet/Loreto, Get well soon. :bounce:

Skeet/Loreto - 5-25-2008 at 11:51 AM

Thanks to all: I came to Calif. for a short Visit and went to my good doctor for the Threadmill-After four minutes and an Ango P;astry he informed me that it had better be done "Now",

I am in good shape, feeling good. California is sure changing Fast-Been helping my Friend at the Dairy.feeding the new Calves their first Bottles. .driving the Loader.Baling Hay, Planting Corn

God Bless All

Skeet.

Capt. George - 5-25-2008 at 12:08 PM

Good Luck Skeet

We need all the ball breakers we can get!!

20? you'll be good for another fourty.....eeeegads.

cap'n g

Gadget - 5-25-2008 at 12:13 PM

I agreed with global warming last week as temperatures reached into the 90s here at the coast. I was beating the drum for our incredible human control over the planet and her climate.

Now today I am beating the drum for the new ice age, as temperatures are nearly 30 degrees cooler in just 6 days!

Man do we have this climate control thing wired! :lol:

Paladin - 5-26-2008 at 10:12 AM

Skeet
It sounds like you had the surgery in Calif??
Fresno by chance???
If in the area, please let me know
Im going to Baja for 18 deays starting June 2
I need directions to old lonely ladies.
Paladin
PS I made 11 minutes on tredmill
Couple of years before Doc guts me :lol:

Skeet/Loreto - 5-26-2008 at 02:25 PM

Paladin: Right: Going in for Surgery Wed. Morning at Memorial in Modesto. Dr. mani was my original Doc. in o3. I trust him.

Will let you know on the "Ole Ladies" later. Just look for the Dances on Sat. or Sunday. Be nice, rub them up close and Whisper in their Ear.
Good Luck>

Skeewt

Capt. George - 5-26-2008 at 02:46 PM

Skeet (off subject)

How and where is Todd? Does he get to visit Baja anymore?

Welcome to visit Deborah and I in Abreojos. We'll be there July into October.

Good luck with the surgeons. g

Cypress - 5-26-2008 at 05:38 PM

Gill nets have been outlawed in the northern Gulf of Mexico and coastal waters of the US. :bounce:

The fish stocks are already rebounding. :bounce:

Sallysouth - 5-26-2008 at 07:44 PM

Skeet, Prayers and good thoughts coming your way from me and my son-in law,Ty and mija Juanita for your soon to be surgery.You are held in high respect in this family.Keep us posted when you get home!! Sally

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