BajaNomad

Fear, Fear, Fear!!!

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Terry28 - 3-8-2009 at 11:59 AM

Some interesting opinions, Rush would be proud of some of you...BUT, what the hell does this have to do with Baja?????

BajaGringo - 3-8-2009 at 12:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by morgaine7
Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
My theory is that going to a global economy will level the playing field and wages/buying power will reach a global mean. Good news for third world nations and bad news for countries like the USA.

OK, got it, thanks. I haven't lived in the US since 1982, so I guess it escaped me that Americans were living significantly better than people of comparable socioeconomic levels in other countries. What I have noticed in the US is that cost of living has become very high, and that there's a tendency to take on more debt, which may have fired an illusion of greater purchasing power. I certainly don't doubt that will level off. I'm more skeptical about a "global mean" but will have to think about it.

Kate


When I said the standard of living of the average working joe in the USA was among the highest in the world, I only based that on the fact that I have seen up front and personal the comparison of how a teacher, plumber, doctor, secretary or factory worker earns and lives in many third world countries on the planet throughout Latin America and Asia. When compring those same professions in the USA the last several decades it becomes obvious the great disparity. I will never forget a surgeon I got to know in Argentina years ago. He invited me out for coffee and to take a spin in his new car. He had worked as a surgeon for 10 years, double shifts even several days a week and was finally able to buy the very first new car he had ever owned in his life. He was so proud of that fact and wanted to share the moment with me.

The car? It was a Fiat 600. For those of you not familiar with the Fiat line it was equivalent to the Yugo. But as far as he was concerned it was a Mercedes-Benz S Class. The surgeon lived in a very small and simple home out in the suburbs with his family and his wife would now have her own car, a fifteen year old Citroen that broke down on a regular basis. She was ecstatic and proud. They were actually a two car family - a rarity. Funny part of the story is that the good doctor hardly drove the car. He would take the bus or let his oldest son drive him to the hospital in the old Citroen. He didn't want to put too many miles on the new car and wear it out too fast.

Much of the world has lived this way and with this standard of living and many have lived much worse on average yet. Going to a global economy doesn't happen overnight. There is still a lot of ebb and flow to this model but I don't see any way possible that manufacturing will suddenly come back in any form to the US under the current wage/regulation climate that exists in the US. Why would business do it? They can build a factory in other parts of the planet at a fraction of the cost, with little or no regulation and cost of labor at a fraction of the cost when compared to the USA.

When the USA ceases to manufacture anything what will happen to the US economy? You cannot build a serious long term economic model all based on service and government jobs. Something has to be produced of value and in the quantities necessary to export and begin to pay off the incredibly huge debt we now carry.

I am still waiting for somebody, anybody to explain to me how going to a global economy will not drag us all down to a global standard of living.

I have posted this question here many times as well as on other forums. I have been called names, called un-American, an alarmist, fear monger and worse. But I still have yet to hear one person explain an economic model in a global economy where that is not true.

What does this have to do with Baja? Many of us here living in Baja are deeply affected by what happens to the US economy via business and retirement investments. The two economies are tied very close together and it only makes sense to me that we talk about such a subject here. If you only visit Baja from time to time, maybe not as much.

Rush? Who cares what he thinks? He is just an entertainer like all the other hacks out there trying to make a buck while stirring you up from their left/right slant. I stopped listening to him many years ago when I realized that was all he was.

Sorry if this thread topic / content upsets some of you...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Edited on 3-8-2009 by BajaGringo]

mtgoat666 - 3-8-2009 at 12:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
I am still waiting for somebody, anybody to explain to me how going to a global economy will not drag us all down to a global standard of living.


We do not yet have a global economy like you are asking about. If we ever create a true global economy that has been levelized to a single standard of living, it will be a marxist utopia that has abolished the bad aspects of capitalist greed and it's disparities in income and standard of living (if leftist ideas prevail). Or it may be anarchy of small warring states (if conservative ideas prevail), where 99% of people live in poverty and 1% of people live in royal style, based on indentured servitude and slavery.

vandenberg - 3-8-2009 at 12:51 PM

Bajagringo,
The reason I never answered to your Global standard of living question is that I thoroughly believe that you hit the nail on the head. It's inevitable. As soon as 3rd world countries have to crank up production to meet demand, labor issues will come into play, like they did in the USA and Europe in the early 20th century. The time of our (just for exemple) assembly line workers unreasonable wages are over forever, and they will ,in the not too far off future, glad to work for less then a quarter of what they earn now. If they have a job to go to, that is. Except for some high tech items, the Western world will not be able to compete. It will take some time, but rising incomes in Latin America and Asia will eventually equal or maybe even surpass ours. This is not a doomsday scenario, but a down to earth fact.
Better prepare your kids and grandkids.

Barry A. - 3-8-2009 at 12:54 PM

BajaGringo said------

"Rush? Who cares what he thinks? He is just an entertainer like all the other hacks out there trying to make a buck while stirring you up from their left/right slant. I stopped listening to him many years ago when I realized that was all he was."

Personally, I don't listen to him, haven't for years. But how can you just dismiss him when he has an audience of roughly 20 million, I believe? No matter how you feel about his content, he DOES matter, in my opinion.

My brother-in-law & sister, both definite Moderates, knows him personally-----both say he appears to be a very quiet, thoughful, and nice man.

On you Global standard of living model-----a very interesting idea, and I tend to think you are onto something. I have always looked at it from an "investment" perspective, and I like what I see. I am about 60% overseas in my investments at this time. Will my standard of living go down in the future, probably not, but I certainly see what you mean. I live very frugally now, so am not too worried, about THAT anyway. I did not own a "new car" until about 2 years ago (my Nissan X-terra) , and have only had one in my life. My 48 year old daughter, a CPA and teacher, has never owned a new car-----my son (a lawyer) 1 new car------my other 2 sons never had a new car----all live very well, by my standards. We are all Conservatives.

Barry

Iflyfish - 3-8-2009 at 01:09 PM

Alas BG I think that the lack of response is because you are right. I sometimes am wrong and at others wish someone would prove me wrong.

As China, India and Brazil rise, we fall, simple equation, in some ways a zero/sum game. It happened to England and it is now happening to us. In some ways for us it's a race to the bottom and amazingly in many cases supported by working people who oppose the wages and benefits paid to union workers.

Ronald Reagan's first act of office was to break the Air Traffic Controllers’ Union and then deregulate industry after industry. So we have been shooting ourselves in the foot for years on this issue.

How all this relates to Baja is that government is developed and maintained by people who are human beings and have a cultural, social, economic and political history that affects their choices and how they deal with the real politic of the day. It is said that those who do not learn from history are destined to repeat it. Remember the French in Viet Nam, the USofA in Viet Nam, the Russians in Afghanistan, the aftermath of the fall of Tito in Yugoslavia and the fall of Sadam Hussein in Iraq? There are dots to connect if one takes the time and it is possible to learn valuable lessons if one does one's homework.

I for instance don't believe that the Mexican populace will rise up against the Drug Oligarchy, but co-opt it as has been done historically with opposition groups in Mexico. The government will side with one of the combating sides and it will become their enterprise also. The Fox/Calderone governments are a new animal in Mexico as these men were USofA educated and bring Norte perspective to the issues they address. In the USofA with its "cowboy" history and mentality you find that the USofA frequently resorts to violence as a way to deal with social problems where Mexico tends to incorporate the "problem" element into the government. I think it is important to understand these differences. If it has "War on...." in its title, it probably was initiated in the USofA. If it has "ni modo" or something about a "tropicalized" agreeable (someone else will need to insert the proper Mexican term) in it then one could suspect Mexican etiology.


Iflyfish

BajaGringo - 3-8-2009 at 01:22 PM

I agree with much of what both you Barry and vandenberg say.

Wages in third world countries will certainly rise as market forces set in. The problem is that we are starting from a point where the bar is set so very low. Any of you know how much factory workers earn in China on average today? The average US worker makes more just from the time they clock in until they actually sit down and start working.

I don't think it will take a Marxist state utopia mtgoat66 to make that happen. Market forces will take us there and I suspect that in general we will become a much more migratory society for awhile, people moving to where the new jobs are starting and to earn a buck or two more a day with some cheaper housing. When that local model adapts and changes business will move to another, cheaper region and labor will follow. Eventually the playing field will level off and we will reach a general, global standard of living. There will always be peaks and valleys, no possible way to avoid that I suppose and there will be some of the same old players, moving the real money and controlling what happens on this global economic model. They are the ones who are pushing us towards this model and I have a suspicion that some of them think they are doing it for humanitarian reasons. Someone earning less than a dollar a day currently in meager conditions would probably like that idea.

Is it fair? That answer changes based on your perspective and it doesn't really matter anyway. It is coming and like Barry and vandenberg say, we need to prepare ourselves and our families today.

I am doing just that. It isn't fear, just smart IMHO.

YMMV...

BajaGringo - 3-8-2009 at 01:26 PM

Great post Iflyfish. No argument here...

Sharksbaja - 3-8-2009 at 02:40 PM

Barry, it's interesting that you invest more outside the US and also drive a foreign car. While China and others are buying up America, American's are buying up stock in other countries.

We add to their prosperity by investing elsewhere, that in turn benefits you and them. Do you think that overall, America benefits also? Do you really care as long as your income and portfolio prevails and makes you money?

Do you think that that has become a relevent part of connecting the global economic dots?

For the sake of argument et's say that a median global economy can be based on these facts and use it as a template. It makes the argument seem more plausible, but isn't that part of the conundrum?

We have opted to let others become the beasts of burden. Manufacturing and so many other out-sourced jobs have left us domestically incapable of competing in these arenas.

It's a capitalists' World we now live in.

But like you say, it's all about generating income so why wouldn't the bulk of knowledgeable investors/capitalists look elsewhere to emerging countries to make them bucks.

That may seem sweet and so easy to do but the shift has caused us to lose valuable ground maintaining our historical engineering and manufacturing prowess.

It may seem petty that that most all retail goods come from somewhere else but in reality it means that millions of blue collar jobs have sailed away in the meantime.

Of course this is old known factor. Putting your money on others because you believe in them is and has always been a gamble but hopefully one you based upon due diligence.

The stock market is a very slippery slope fueled by a daily barrage of negative media sensationalism and angst. It isn't at all shocking to watch it even though it's so significant.

If you play the global market you become an enabler, not only for that other country but also for the ones that seals your deals. It doesn't make you a bad guy just part of the global situation.

I can imagine someone well invested in China might be doing great. I saw their unemployment was around 5%. Something to think about when you want to compare apples and oranges.

When the day comes that we are at the mercy of the rest of the world to supply all our worldy possessions we will all belong to the same club, like it or not.

The question is, do you want to?:?:

ELINVESTIG8R - 3-8-2009 at 04:28 PM

I'm not afraid of crap anymore. It has been that way since 1985 during a split second change of life. That crap includes death, the economy, the Mexican cartel, person(s) or thing(s). And yes, that goes for the P-nche asteroid if it is hurtling toward us. This is not bravado speaking it is a fact. That is who I am. When the end comes I will be giving it the middle finger as that little mouse did when the hawk was swooping in to kill it and eat it.

Barry A. - 3-8-2009 at 05:00 PM

Sharks--------all good questions, and points.

I have owned Chevys (3), AMC Rambler (1), Fords (2), Cryslers (1) , Dodges (1), and then I went to German cars (2), then to Japanese cars (3)----all but one used-----------I had/have good luck with all except the two German Cars, a used Mercedes 240-diesel, and a used Audi 5000 Turbo. Both cost me a small fortune to keep running, but they were fun. Never again, tho. I buy what is reported to be the "best" in that class-------lately that has been Japanese-----I still own 3: an Isuzu Trooper, a Toy Camry, and a Nissan X-terra. I also own a '94 Ford F-250 4x4. All 4 cars I still own are basically flawless, so I keep them.

4/5ths of my Stock investments are handled by 2 professional Managers, and they make all the selections. The remaining 1/5 I manage (mostly ROTH-IRA's) and they are all domestic. My "managers" think the best opportunities mostly lay overseas at this time----both totally restructured my portfolios to reflect that thinking last December.

Maintaining my portfolios for my children and grandchildren, etc. are paramount in my mind-----I want to take care of my family first, then me, then my Country. I suppose that is selfish of me, but I honestly think that is my main responsibility.

I am a "free trader", and a "globalist", and believe it is inevitable-----------but I expect everybody to "compete" for my investments. The USA has done that well over the years, but they are now failing to keep up, for a variety of reasons, some not necessarily of their own making.

I try to consider all the impacts of what I am doing, but mostly I am "potential-profit" motivated-----I feel that is my responsibility as "caretaker" of a portion of the "families" investments, and I owe it to the rest of the family.

I hope that covers most of your questions. You make some very good points, and I do think about the things you say, and I thank you for saying them.

Barry A.

cantinflas - 3-8-2009 at 05:04 PM

Jesse I feel it dude. I stopped the gringo NEWS 6 mos. ago and as of 4 weeks ago I stopped my Mexican cable for the same reason. I can get my a.p. news on the net, movies at the tiagis and rent from el norte. Lifes good!!!!

BajaGringo - 3-8-2009 at 05:58 PM

In a true, free capitalism model, market forces will prevail. Borders and national allegiances will become eventual victims in that model and to call someone out because they don't buy a national product which may be inferior in quality and/or price is to hinder a true free market.

Did any of you here really believe that the USA would be able to live in a bubble forever with substantially higher wages, real estate values and standard of living compared to the majority of the people living outside her borders on this planet? Even if you tried to protect that model with protective tariffs, border walls and military action, the global economy will eventualy bring it down.

I am convinced that most of the leading business and political figures in the USA have understood this coming reality for a long time. I suspect that nobody wants to be the one to give the patient the bitter medicine of what lies ahead...

Bajahowodd - 3-8-2009 at 11:43 PM

Kate says volumes. In the USA, expectations have been thoroughly hyped by marketers, i.e. advertisers. So much of the revenue changing hands has been, for year, on behalf of crap that is unnecessary. Think of things like bluetooths, I-phones, viagra. People go into debt to obtain unnecessary crap.

dianaji - 3-9-2009 at 06:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Kate says volumes. In the USA, expectations have been thoroughly hyped by marketers, i.e. advertisers. So much of the revenue changing hands has been, for year, on behalf of crap that is unnecessary. Think of things like bluetooths, I-phones, viagra. People go into debt to obtain unnecessary crap.


yup...people work all of their lives just to have the $$$ to buy things they do not need. the people that will have the hardest time adjusting are those that over-consume.

we don't own stuff...stuff owns us!

David K - 3-9-2009 at 07:59 AM

People... there is such a thing as 'personal responsibility'! Blaming 'marketing' for people spending beyond their means?

People need to get some control over their own lives... and not blame cool ads or whatever for them buying stuff on credit they don't really need or can't pay back.... right?

I mean all we really need is 'Peace, Love, and Fish Tacos'... right???:biggrin:

[Edited on 3-9-2009 by David K]

dianaji - 3-9-2009 at 08:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K


I mean all we really need is 'Peace, Love, and Fish Tacos'... right???:biggrin:

[Edited on 3-9-2009 by David K]


amd lotsa plants!

BajaGringo - 3-9-2009 at 09:02 AM

Living beyond their means is something that the USA has been guilty of and is now paying the price for. The US government has been one of the worst offenders and that blame is shared equally by both political parties.

The ones who will survive the coming storm best are those who learn to "downsize" their spending habits / lifestyle. The problem is that is the very thing that kept the US economy moving. Quite a catch 22...

Barry A. - 3-9-2009 at 09:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
Living beyond their means is something that the USA has been guilty of and is now paying the price for. The US government has been one of the worst offenders and that blame is shared equally by both political parties.

The ones who will survive the coming storm best are those who learn to "downsize" their spending habits / lifestyle. The problem is that is the very thing that kept the US economy moving. Quite a catch 22...


I believe your correct, on both counts. I also believe that the sooner we face the pain, the sooner we will work our way thru it--------Warren Buffett says 5 years before the economy is pumping along again (???).

Most of the bail-out's now being provided will just prolong the pain, IMO. Big "adjustments" coming, like BG says. But keep in mind that their billions of folks out there that still are way behind in Standard of Living, and they will be buying for a long time, barring a catastrophy.

We'll survive, but just not in "present form".

Barry

BajaGringo - 3-9-2009 at 10:28 AM

That is correct Barry. This is not the end.

Just the end to the way we know things now...

Bajahowodd - 3-9-2009 at 10:42 AM

Barry- If you want to quote Warren Buffett, you should be more complete. in a lengthy interview on CNBC, he was adamant that congress should stop their partisan bickering a close ranks around the President's efforts. He compared the current economic situation as a state of war, and said everyone should be supporting the comander in chief.

Skeet/Loreto - 3-9-2009 at 11:52 AM

One Question:

Fear? Fear? Fear?-
Where did we learn to Fear? Parents, School, TV, Games???

We all need to teach our Children the difference between "Want" and Needs" That would be a start.

We want to teach them that TV and News Media do not always tell the Truth, just as some teachers think they are teaching Truth{ Not having been taught the difference}

We also may teach them the true difference between Socialism, Communism, Liberals, Independant, Conservatism.

I am of the opinion that an American is still living and being the BEST. After all the things that us Americans have done in the pass 60 years, it is not all as bad as the NUTs who are trying to tell you Young ones that we are a "Bad Country""

Any Youngster who is having this BS shoved down his Throat, come to the Southern States or to the Montana Country, talk to the People, look around,GET OUT OF THE CITY!!!

There are many places you can come to, live and let live, enjoy your life withour trying to obtain everything the TV wants you to Buy!!

Skeet/Loreto

Barry A. - 3-9-2009 at 12:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Barry- If you want to quote Warren Buffett, you should be more complete. in a lengthy interview on CNBC, he was adamant that congress should stop their partisan bickering a close ranks around the President's efforts. He compared the current economic situation as a state of war, and said everyone should be supporting the comander in chief.


Huh??? OK, I will buy all that, and have no doubt that is what he said.

I was not quoting Warren directly, I was just repeating what I heard on NPR this morning while in the shower (and I probably missed some of it???)-------what you have added is good, but I don't see what it adds (or changes??) to the point I was trying to make.

Personally, I have BKR-B in my portfolio, and have for years, so I respect Warren as an "investor"------his politial views are his, but I don't necessarily agree with everything he says.

I hope that he is wrong, and it won't take "5 years" for the economy to get back on it's feet--------but it may, and he is very astute at this sort of thing and that is why I even mentioned it. But he is not flawless, as the value of BKR has proven over the past few months-----his investment "style" does not appear do well in this kind of Market, and he admits this constantly------he is a very "long term" investor.

We will just have to wait and see---------but I am NOT going to blindly follow Obama over a cliff, if that is what I see coming, Buffett or not.

His policies and stated agenda, so far, make me VERY nervous.

Barry

Sharksbaja - 3-9-2009 at 12:43 PM

Pray tell....
Quote:

Any Youngster who is having this BS shoved down his Throat, come to the Southern States or to the Montana Country


Is there a different media in those countries?:?:


:lol::lol:

Barry A. - 3-9-2009 at 01:09 PM

Oooops--------I just realized that my Finantial Manager sold all my BKR-b (Birkshire Hathaway) 3+ months ago-------------huge profit-------------one of the few bright spots in my portfolios-------------my Manager does not think Buffett is positioned correctly near-term, so sold. Better opportunities elsewhere, he says. Will buy back (maybe?) somewhere down the line, he says. Since my Manager's track record is great, I don't argue. (but it does hurt, emotionally----on my own I probably would have never sold it) :no:

Sorry for mis-leading you all------------(gotta be transparent these days, you know.) :light:

Barry

BajaGringo - 3-9-2009 at 02:59 PM

Barry, you're awesome. Even when we disagree...

;)

Sharksbaja - 3-9-2009 at 03:21 PM

Now yer jes beein waaaay too nice!!:lol: He's still a Republican. Just not your average run of the mill one....


Thanks for the cogent dialog you guys. Very civil indeed.

Barry A. - 3-9-2009 at 03:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Sharksbaja
Now yer jes beein waaaay too nice!!:lol: He's still a Republican. Just not your average run of the mill one....


Thanks for the cogent dialog you guys. Very civil indeed.


:lol::lol::lol::lol: True, true, I AM still a Republican. Thanks you guys for trying to educate me. I just don't think you can learn much (if anything) if you are always yelling at the other person. I actually have learned a great deal during this thread---------and I printed some of it out so I won't forget (which we are want to do). Lots of good points, and different approaches to things, and that is all good.

------now, if only the economy would start turning around---------------:rolleyes: :tumble:

Barry

Skeet/Loreto - 3-9-2009 at 03:59 PM

Is it not somewhat strange that a thread started as Fear turns into a Fear of loosing Money!!!

Some very good ideas and comments indeed.

Does this mean the only true Fear is the Absent of Money??

Barry, I must tell you, There is a lot more in this ole World than Money! And if you ever feel in the Need, youall come on back here to Texas, there are a lot of good Folks that will give you a meal and a Bed and treat you Right.

In Fact there are a lot of small towns all over this great Country that could use a few good people like you that is retired, with nothing much to do, to move in and help the small town revive. Just like escaping to Baja.

Skeet

BajaGringo - 3-9-2009 at 04:02 PM

That is an excellent point and does play into the many of the points made here Skeet. Today I make less than what I was earning on the north side of the border but I feel many times richer. State of mind is based mostly on perception and mine has come around full circle in that regard.

And you will always have a warm meal and bed to sleep here in the BajaGringo household should you choose to stop by...

:yes:

[Edited on 3-9-2009 by BajaGringo]

Skeet/Loreto - 3-9-2009 at 04:04 PM

Sharks: No , not a different Media, just not time to turn on those Gadgets that teach you Fear!!

Just a lot of good ole Country Folks to get to know and a lot of Space full of Birds, Deer, Skunks. and Coons and a few Rattlesnakes all with out that driving force to attain everything your neighbor has!!

You guys in the Cities are missing a lot of Living b y staying cramped up with all those Buuil;dings and Cars.

Go take a look at the rest of the Country! Adventure!

Barry A. - 3-9-2009 at 04:06 PM

Below is a sample of what I was talking about-----loyal citizen or not, you simply cannot afford to buck these trends, it seem to me. This just came in by e-mail form to me---------


"U.S. investors who invested in a China index fund are already 31% richer this year.

U.S. investors who invested in a U.S. index are over 24% poorer.

Does that mean you should buy a China index fund?

No it does not. You can do much better.

Here’s How

If, instead of buying a China index fund on January 1, you had bought KongZhong, a China company, readily bought on the New York Stock Exchange, that provides wireless services, you would be, not 31% better off, but 50% better off.

WebZen, a Korean game company, is up 43% this year. And the Israeli-based XTL Biopharmaceuticals is up 60%.

But as good as those returns are, yes, you can do even better, as you are about to see.

Go Where the Grass
Is Greener
(and the money is, too)

If you want to be rich in 2009, make for higher ground—and do it quickly.

China is UP. Chile, Israel and Brazil are all UP.

The U.S. is DOWN (you noticed?). Only Iceland and Romania are down worse than we are! Even Lithuania is doing better!

The smart money has dumped the dollar. Trading in global depository receipts—overseas stocks you can buy right here—are soaring. Almost 40 of these ADRs, tracked minute by minute, are up by as much as 60%, year to date."


Scary stuff-----for us, I am afraid, at least near-term. This, of course, is Hype, but still there is some truth here-----you must "subscribe" to learn what he is talking about, of course, which I have no intention of doing. This stuff comes flooding in every day, so the spin-meisters are still "at it" in a big way.

Barry

Barry A. - 3-9-2009 at 04:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Is it not somewhat strange that a thread started as Fear turns into a Fear of loosing Money!!!

Some very good ideas and comments indeed.

Does this mean the only true Fear is the Absent of Money??

Barry, I must tell you, There is a lot more in this ole World than Money! And if you ever feel in the Need, youall come on back here to Texas, there are a lot of good Folks that will give you a meal and a Bed and treat you Right.

In Fact there are a lot of small towns all over this great Country that could use a few good people like you that is retired, with nothing much to do, to move in and help the small town revive. Just like escaping to Baja.

Skeet


Wise counsel, Skeet. I bought a home in little Independence, CA (Owens Valley) a couple of years ago, and my son lives in it as caretaker and eventual heir to it. We spend at least 2 months a year over there.

I love small towns, and they don't get much smaller than little Independence, even tho it is the County Seat of Inyo County. When the Market improves, I will sell out in Redding, Ca (getting too big) and move over to Independence.

Fun, fun. :biggrin:

Barry

David K - 3-9-2009 at 04:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by Sharksbaja
Now yer jes beein waaaay too nice!!:lol: He's still a Republican. Just not your average run of the mill one....


Thanks for the cogent dialog you guys. Very civil indeed.


:lol::lol::lol::lol: True, true, I AM still a Republican. Thanks you guys for trying to educate me. I just don't think you can learn much (if anything) if you are always yelling at the other person. I actually have learned a great deal during this thread---------and I printed some of it out so I won't forget (which we are want to do). Lots of good points, and different approaches to things, and that is all good.

------now, if only the economy would start turning around---------------:rolleyes: :tumble:

Barry


DK's REAL EASY ECONOMY 101:

Barry, the congress needs to be turned around for the economy to turn around... it takes 2 years of new policy to change the economy.

2 years ago, the congress was 'fired' for not acting in good faith, with OUR money... So, we got change two years ago.

But, despite the attack of 9-11 our economy was booming 2 years ago... so that spendy group (congress controls the money) really didn't cause us financial pain, then.

The New congress takes over (2 years ago) and makes radical spending and lending rules, despite warnings... Today, the economy is crashing... banks were forced to lend money to unqualified buyers and speculators using the AIG guarantees and promisses by government... AIG crashed, we bailed them out... It's a mess...It took 2 years to get here...

Bad to worse: Thinking the president (then) was THE reason it was getting bad (last year), a majority of the people voted in the new president... who is a member of the same congress that got to power 2 years ago... THE SAME group whose policies destroyed the bank lending system with their demands to loan money to ANYONE who asked for it.

The last president and the previous congress (before 2 years ago) were NOT conservative in financial matters... they spent money like liberals... but we had lots of money because of a few SMART things that president did:

LOWERING TAXES. When people aren't punished for being productive... they produce MORE! Taxes are punishment... they rob incentive to do more. People do less if the government is going to take more.

Income to government (taxes) GOES UP when the tax rate is lowered!

Now, if we can last... the next election is in 2 years... That other group learned their lesson... it cost them the majority... our only hope is conservative principles...

We don't have the money for government to spend the way it is planning to. We make the money government runs on... we pay for it... It isn't magic and if the government prints money when we aren't creating true wealth, the money loses value... fast!

So HOPE FOR CHANGE (in 2 years)... otherwise CHANGE is all you will have left!

OKAY, the connection to Baja: LESS MONEY= NO FUN BAJA TRIPS!

(gang, I did my best to not name anyone or any party... this is a reply to Barry A)

Peace, Love and Fish Tacos! (great slogan created by Perry):light::biggrin:

comitan - 3-9-2009 at 04:39 PM

*+Yep DK your right it all happened in the last two years.:lol::lol::lol:

David K - 3-9-2009 at 04:43 PM

You weren't living here Comitan, but it was BOOMING until this past Fall... HERE in SoCal, anyway.

Happy times...

Bajahowodd - 3-9-2009 at 04:47 PM

David. David. David. Since the so-called new congress did not have a bullet-proof majority, and there was a guy named Bush in the Oval office, I just don't see how you can travel down that road. Coincidence, maybe. But the crap that got us here started way long ago.

As for Barry- Cool! Independence is a beautiful little town. I'm jealous.

Bajahowodd - 3-9-2009 at 04:48 PM

And since I didn't want to break the mood of my last post.... Barry. How do we know that the investments you noted are just not lagging this downturn?

Barry A. - 3-9-2009 at 04:57 PM

David----------as I have said many times, there is plenty of blame to go around, and few are immune. But you are essentially correct---------things began to unravel about 2 years ago-----------prior to that the economy was booming, for investors and wall street, anyway. (and I submit for most others, too--------compared to where we were 30 or 40 years ago)

The HUGE PROBLEM that is looming over all this, and has not been addressed adaquately, is the growing disparity between the "have nots, and the haves", and until we reverse that trend (and I have no idea how to do that) we are headed for big-time problems, which are already haunting us---------the "folks" simply cannot be left out (even tho largely a perception problem), or all hell will break loose.

Redistribution is ABSOLUTELY NOT THE ANSWER, and that I KNOW. But something MUST be done, and done soon. Maybe "Iflyfish" and others have a solution----if so, I would like to hear it.

Barry

Barry A. - 3-9-2009 at 05:01 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
And since I didn't want to break the mood of my last post.... Barry. How do we know that the investments you noted are just not lagging this downturn?


We don't------------you never know for certain what will happen--------that is why "investors" are rewarded hamsomely----because of the "risk" involved. We investors get paid for taking risks, and sometimes we lose our shirts (at least in some areas, but not completely because we are diversified) :light: and some times (hopefully mostly) we are rewarded big-time!!

Barry

BajaGringo - 3-9-2009 at 08:48 PM

The problem with your analysis DK is that "booming" economy you mentioned was based largely on an inflated real estate market funded by mortgage bankers lending to almost anybody with a pulse. It was a ticking time bomb waiting to blow. You surely cannot point to any particular policy of the last administration that "helped" the economic "boom" as you call it? As I recall the prior occupant at 1600 Pennsylvania was more occupied with expanding the federal government by more than 50% and funding the entire operation with bonds sold to the Chinese that our great grandchildren will be struggling to pay. That expansion he created was a "gift that keeps on giving" that will continue to be carried over and added to our out of control debt. Both sides of the aisle voted to approve that idiotic spending and I hold them both responsible. I don't like what is going on with the current administration but I find it hilarious to hear the right suddenly become "outraged" with all this spending. Where were you guys last year? And the year before? And the year before that and the year before that???

It sounds rather hypocritical IMHO.

Barry A. - 3-9-2009 at 10:43 PM

All responsible Republicans were outraged by the Bushies spending habits, and said so over and over again. FOX NEWS reported those objections, time and time again, as did others.

Bush's primary gift to the the "booming economy", and it surely was booming, was his tax policy, and that was HUGE.

"Mark to Market" policies were the catlyst that exploded the credit markets, along with other nutty policies.

As far back as 2002 Bush, and others, were warning (and it is fully documented on the net) in the strongest terms possible to rein in Fannie and Freddie and the near insane lending tatics that the Dems were pushing, and demanding, in the name of "home ownership for all", but Bush contributed to the insanity by encouraging that policy, even when he knew it was a time bomb waiting to happen.

And many people were acting nuts, fully knowing that they could not afford the loans they were taking out----why they did this I have never understood. (greed???)

Lots of blame to go around.

Barry

Bajahowodd - 3-9-2009 at 11:20 PM

Barry- You rightly recognize a problem that has arisen between that haves and have nots. But you appear to be adamant that some form of redistribution is anathma. I don't really want to go down the same road as before, but it was Reagan that kicked sick people out of mental facilities so they could wander the streets with shopping carts and live under freeway overpasses. How about starting with univeral healthcare. I personally feel that it is a crime that the United States does not come close, measuring against other industrialized countries, to the top on longevity and has a horrible record on infant mortality. There has to be a point where lucid thinkers have to realize that there are certain things that the so-called free market cannot, or will not deliver to society because their allegiance is to profits before people's well being.

tigerdog - 3-10-2009 at 03:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Bush's primary gift to the the "booming economy", and it surely was booming, was his tax policy, and that was HUGE.


With all due respect, the "booming economy" was an illusion. It was a bubble (actually at least 3 bubbles, bubbling simultaneously). His tax policy redistributed wealth from the bottom to the top, thus contributing to the wealth gap. During the last eight years, real incomes for working people have stagnated or declined. Poverty rose. We had eight years with no net job creation. The nutrition problem in our country grew worse, culminating with ten percent of the population on food stamps -- and this was before the financial collapse. We experienced skyrocketing costs for housing, higher education and medical care at the same time government was threatening to yank away safety net programs like Social Security.

The last eight years weren't a party for most Americans.
Quote:
"Mark to Market" policies were the catlyst that exploded the credit markets, along with other nutty policies.


It was considerably more complicated than that. See below.

Quote:
As far back as 2002 Bush, and others, were warning (and it is fully documented on the net) in the strongest terms possible to rein in Fannie and Freddie and the near insane lending tatics that the Dems were pushing, and demanding, in the name of "home ownership for all", but Bush contributed to the insanity by encouraging that policy, even when he knew it was a time bomb waiting to happen.


Fannie and Freddy were A problem, but they weren't THE problem. If you're looking for a major cause of the current banking meltdown, you need look no farther than the 1999 repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act.

The Glass-Steagall Act, passed in 1933, mandated the separation of commercial and investment banking in order to protect depositors from the hazards of risky investment and speculation. It worked fine for fifty years until the banking industry began lobbying for its repeal during the 1980s. They were finally successful in late 1999 when Clinton signed into law The Gramm-Leach-Bliley Financial Services Modernization Act, which repealed part of the Glass-Steagall Act, opening up competition among banks, securities companies and insurance companies. Republican Phil Gramm wrote most of that bill, pushed hard for its passage and still supports it today-- and a majority of Dems also voted for it. With regulation and oversight removed, it was a disaster waiting to happen.
Quote:
And many people were acting nuts, fully knowing that they could not afford the loans they were taking out----why they did this I have never understood. (greed???)


If you want to gain an understanding of how the whole thing went down, I highly recommend watching CNBC's documentary "House of Cards, The Definitive Look At The Origins Of Today's Global Economic Crisis". You can watch it online at Hulu (for free), and I promise it is NOT boring. Break out the popcorn; it's a couple hours long. ;)
http://www.hulu.com/watch/59026/cnbc-originals-house-of-card...
Quote:
Lots of blame to go around.


Boy, you got that right! :O

[Edited on 3-10-2009 by tigerdog]

David K - 3-10-2009 at 09:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
The problem with your analysis DK is that "booming" economy you mentioned was based largely on an inflated real estate market funded by mortgage bankers lending to almost anybody with a pulse. It was a ticking time bomb waiting to blow. You surely cannot point to any particular policy of the last administration that "helped" the economic "boom" as you call it? As I recall the prior occupant at 1600 Pennsylvania was more occupied with expanding the federal government by more than 50% and funding the entire operation with bonds sold to the Chinese that our great grandchildren will be struggling to pay. That expansion he created was a "gift that keeps on giving" that will continue to be carried over and added to our out of control debt. Both sides of the aisle voted to approve that idiotic spending and I hold them both responsible. I don't like what is going on with the current administration but I find it hilarious to hear the right suddenly become "outraged" with all this spending. Where were you guys last year? And the year before? And the year before that and the year before that???

It sounds rather hypocritical IMHO.


YOU ARE RIGHT!

Bush could not veto anything put in front of him (it seemed).... a fiscal conservative, he was NOT!

The Republicans lost congress when they stopped being conservative...

Since there was no other way to 'teach them a lesson', they got replaced by Democrats... Only problem is that Democrats today are total Socialists, believing that only government programs can solve problems (and keep them in power by 'giving' to people who haven't earned what they get).

If John Kennedy where alive today, he would not recognize the Democrat party... Back then, you could vote for either party and know they both loved America and wanted her to be strong and successful... Now, the Republicans are like the Democrats of Kennedy's time and the Democrats act more like the communist party in Cuba!

Anyway, the election is over... we have what we have... now we will see what happens...

Thanks Ron.

wilderone - 3-10-2009 at 09:11 AM

None of you see that part of today's problem with big industry - which put people to work and made our products exportable (produce, produce, produce) - is that UNIONIZATION demanded more and more wages and benefits. The ultimate upshot of that is today's unsustainable burden of retirement and health benefit expenditures that auto mfrs. and other industries are saddled with. There is no compromise with those who are owed pension payments and health benefits which were negotiated and contracted for. These public companies answer to their shareholders and Wall Street, and are ham-stringed because of their constant payout constraints.
Going forward, pension and health care for employees must take a back seat to the fundamental factor of the job and its wage in order to rebuild. Continuing in the same vein would change nothing. Govt. subsidized healthcare, and/or reining in healthcare costs and insurance premiums is essential to a strong economic future - it lets employers off the hook and makes companies more profitable and able to hire more people.
Another factor that ultimately led to economic downturn is years of creating electronic products which ostensibly enabled companies to do their work more efficiently with fewer people. So companies bought gizmos, got efficient and laid people off so they could operate with less overhead. More and more gizmos, more and more people out of work. We've used technology to supplant peoples' jobs.
Other factors include the denegration of natural resources over the past generation, so that now, what previously was sustainable and offered people jobs in forestry, fishing, etc. is now gone.

The focus must change to reverse the forces that caused this multi-faceted economic downturn: JOBS of a new kind
to clean up mining sites
reforestation
using byproducts of all kinds
recyling and creating new products from them
creating cheaper alternative energy products like solar panels, batteries
using byproducts to invigorate farms and produce crops for cheap export to feed the world instead of subsidizing to not grow crops
in education of all kinds that is affordable and available to everyone
in healthcare of all kinds that is affordable and available to everyone

And the obvious overspending that the war has entailed has derailed our economy as well - no money for infrastructure or grants (which would create jobs).

And our global trade obligations got unbalanced to favor Asian products versus our own. Time for re-balancing and protectionism (more jobs).

BajaGringo - 3-10-2009 at 09:14 AM

Thanks for helping to explain why I have lost any allegiance to either side of the political aisle. They are both responsible for taking us down and I wish we could get away from making this just a left-right thing. While we are all fighting THEY have made quite sure to take care of themselves financially and we are all left holding the bill...

Barry A. - 3-10-2009 at 09:16 AM

------and Tigerdog's post points out vividly the different perspectives and different rulers we use in measuring things by conservatives and liberals-----------and that is the way it will always be.

I do not substantially disagree with anything Tigerdog says, with the exception of Glass-Stegal which should have been repealed IMO because it was too restrictive---------but for sure it's repeal released a storm of abuse-------so something inbetween is perhaps what is needed.

However, the ruler that Tigerdog (and most others) uses for measuring "progress" is part of the problem, it seems to me, and addresses the very things that were put forth earlier in this thread-----------namely that "progress" is determined by the accumulation of "things", to a large degree, and when folks believe that they cannot afford the "things" that they want, they feel deprived. We simply cannot continue to accumulate "things" anymore, mainly because they are not necessary for our daily living, and they are environmentally unsound. However, I realize that this type of thinking causes a huge blow to the traditional way that America measures "progress"-----if people don't buy "things", then the economy stagnates. (Maybe that is good??? I really don't know)

My main two arguments against "Universal Health Care" is that we cannot afford it, and it will be rife with abuse. Medicare is already a fiscal nightmare because of abuse--------think what Uni-H-Care will be like? This is not to mention what it will do to medical progress and medical breakthroughs, which are mainly accomplished thru the profit motive incentive.

And finally, I can only measure a booming economy thru my own experience, and what I see going on around me--------and those two rulers told me that things were booming.

It is interesting to note that my house gained in value for the first 12 years I owned it (1986 to 1998) not one cent-----bought for $80K and there it remained. Since 1998 the value of my house went to an appraised value of $290K in mid-2007------and now it is worth about $240K--------Am I worse off house-wise then I was??? a little, but I am still vastly ahead of where I was in 1998. That is progress, with a capitol "P".

So what is going on, and where as a nation we are economically is viewed thru different prisms, for sure.

Barry

wilderone - 3-10-2009 at 09:48 AM

"medical progress and medical breakthroughs, which are mainly accomplished thru the profit motive incentive"

which drives up prescription costs; makes people sick due to over-medication; makes people sick from side effects. "cure" for cancer? How about stopping the cause of cancer - food additives, polluted air, water, chemicals in our home products, processed foods, too much sugar, too much salt in every single thing food mfrs. produce; chemicals in our poultry, cattle, pigs' food; depleted farm soil; pesticides. We'd be much further ahead if all those cancer researchers pooled their grants and put away their egos and shared information. I met a woman from Europe who is a cancer researcher who has strung out her research work because she wants to stay in the USA. She needs another grant to do so. It appears her first priority is living in the USA with her daughter so her daughter can go to school here - not advancing her research. This is not an isolated situation.

Turn the focus on health and create the jobs for a healthier generation with less cancer, fewer drugs, preventive healthcare in local clinics, home health, short-term board and care homes instead of hospitals.

djh - 3-10-2009 at 10:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The Republicans lost congress when they stopped being conservative...

Since there was no other way to 'teach them a lesson', they got replaced by Democrats... Only problem is that Democrats today are total Socialists, believing that only government programs can solve problems (and keep them in power by 'giving' to people who haven't earned what they get).

If John Kennedy where alive today, he would not recognize the Democrat party... Back then, you could vote for either party and know they both loved America and wanted her to be strong and successful... Now, the Republicans are like the Democrats of Kennedy's time and the Democrats act more like the communist party in Cuba!


DK,
You're a good chap, and helpful to many fellow Nomads here... but I'd like to challenge you to rethink a few of your comments.

a. the Republicans lost congress when they were voted out by the public (they stopped being "conservative" LONG before they were voted out.... unfortunately)

b. do you think making your absolutes like "Democrats today are total Socialists" is in any way helpful, or accurate? That is really massive generalizing and very polarizing.... A healthy exchange of diverse ideas is a good thing and is what our form of govt. has been built on ~ and benefitted from, but our govt. and our country today is sufferring from "absolutism", extremism, marginalizing, and increasing hatred and blame in many camps.

And lastly....

c. the communist party in Cuba...??? All this "bailout" crap started with GWB and his admin. The common theme with both the D's and the R's is that they are socializing the debts of the rich, after allowing the unregulated criminals to skulk away with immense individual and corporate fortunes.... The profit was never socialized...

I'd sincerely like to invite you to do less generalizing and marginalizing in your comments. While I find I sometimes agree with you on some of your content, your delivery on political ideas is quite alienating....

For whatever it is worth to you (perhaps nothing...?) something to ponder, amigo.

tigerdog - 3-10-2009 at 11:56 AM

Quote:
However, the ruler that Tigerdog (and most others) uses for measuring "progress" is part of the problem, it seems to me, and addresses the very things that were put forth earlier in this thread-----------namely that "progress" is determined by the accumulation of "things", to a large degree, and when folks believe that they cannot afford the "things" that they want, they feel deprived. We simply cannot continue to accumulate "things" anymore, mainly because they are not necessary for our daily living, and they are environmentally unsound.


Barry I don't know how you arrived at the conclusion, from my post, that I use that ruler to measure progress. It's wildly off the mark. I agree with you about the accumulation of 'things'. The selfish "I want it now" mentality that's developed over the last many years is not healthy for individuals, countries or the environment. I think personal responsibility and living within one's means needs to be reintroduced into the public vocabulary, and that public includes corporate boardrooms and Wall Street.

My mom and dad grew up during the Great Depression, and Mom had a rule that has stuck with me all these years: "Use it up, wear it out, make it do, or do without". Not to say I'm a penny-P-ncher, but man can I "make it do"! :)

I do encourage everyone to watch that documentary I linked to above. It has neither a left nor right bias and as a result is quite good investigative reporting. Some very interesting interviews with some interesting people, too. I learned a lot from it, and it gave me new avenues for research to learn more on my own. I am not interested in spin and don't rely on the reports of pundits and talking heads. I look for the factual data on my own to determine whether or not my views hold water. When they don't hold water it truly annoys me, :mad: but I will change my views to fit the data.

I think these labels we put on each other of "left" "right" "socialist" "fascist" etc. are totally unhelpful. We don't need to be bipartisan at this point. We need to be NONpartisan. We are all Americans, we all love our country and want the best for it. Now we are in the midst of a terrible crisis and need to work together to get out of it. Calling each other names and accusing each other of being unpatriotic or unAmerican is counter productive. (Edited to add that I'm not referring to you personally here, Barry)

[Edited on 3-10-2009 by tigerdog]

Barry A. - 3-10-2009 at 12:05 PM

Tigerdog---------now going back to your original post, I don't know how I came to that conclusion either. Sorry, my mistake. (communication is sometimes so difficult when we don't read or listen carefully, and I sure contributed to that this time).

Your Mom was/is very wise.

What you now say I agree with---------and well said.

Barry

[Edited on 3-10-2009 by Barry A.]

tigerdog - 3-10-2009 at 12:14 PM

Thank you for that, Barry. Communication is also difficult when you can't watch body language or hear tone of voice. It's very refreshing to be able to discuss such things civilly and with respect for each other, isn't it.

If only the rest of the country could learn from us wonderful Nomads. ;D

Sharksbaja - 3-10-2009 at 12:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by djh
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
The Republicans lost congress when they stopped being conservative...

Since there was no other way to 'teach them a lesson', they got replaced by Democrats... Only problem is that Democrats today are total Socialists, believing that only government programs can solve problems (and keep them in power by 'giving' to people who haven't earned what they get).

If John Kennedy where alive today, he would not recognize the Democrat party... Back then, you could vote for either party and know they both loved America and wanted her to be strong and successful... Now, the Republicans are like the Democrats of Kennedy's time and the Democrats act more like the communist party in Cuba!


DK,
You're a good chap, and helpful to many fellow Nomads here... but I'd like to challenge you to rethink a few of your comments.

a. the Republicans lost congress when they were voted out by the public (they stopped being "conservative" LONG before they were voted out.... unfortunately)

b. do you think making your absolutes like "Democrats today are total Socialists" is in any way helpful, or accurate? That is really massive generalizing and very polarizing.... A healthy exchange of diverse ideas is a good thing and is what our form of govt. has been built on ~ and benefitted from, but our govt. and our country today is sufferring from "absolutism", extremism, marginalizing, and increasing hatred and blame in many camps.

And lastly....

c. the communist party in Cuba...??? All this "bailout" crap started with GWB and his admin. The common theme with both the D's and the R's is that they are socializing the debts of the rich, after allowing the unregulated criminals to skulk away with immense individual and corporate fortunes.... The profit was never socialized...

I'd sincerely like to invite you to do less generalizing and marginalizing in your comments. While I find I sometimes agree with you on some of your content, your delivery on political ideas is quite alienating....

For whatever it is worth to you (perhaps nothing...?) something to ponder, amigo.


Damn, I wish I could have said something like that! Thanks!

tigerdog - 3-10-2009 at 12:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
The focus must change to reverse the forces that caused this multi-faceted economic downturn: JOBS of a new kind
to clean up mining sites
reforestation
using byproducts of all kinds
recyling and creating new products from them
creating cheaper alternative energy products like solar panels, batteries
using byproducts to invigorate farms and produce crops for cheap export to feed the world instead of subsidizing to not grow crops
in education of all kinds that is affordable and available to everyone
in healthcare of all kinds that is affordable and available to everyone


Regarding "using byproducts of all kinds, recyling and creating new products from them"...

The other day I was watching HGTV and saw a segment where designers were using wood-chip mulch for a yard. At least I THOUGHT it was wood-chips. Turns out it was made from old tires and just looked like wood! It looked very nice and has the advantage of not decaying like wood (so it doesn't have to be replaced), keeps the ground cool, helps prevent runoff when it rains (encouraging plant growth and discouraging erosion) and doesn't smell like old tires (lol). I didn't investigate to see how environmentally friendly it is to create this product; I'm just using it as one example of recycling a product to create a new use for it.

Considering the number of old tires polluting the landscape and landfills, at least from a superficial viewpoint this seems like a good deal. I wondered, as I watched, if that might not be a good product for certain uses in a desert environment, particularly for replacing some gravel landscaping (it's hot in the summer and adds to the heat island effect) and using less water to grow trees, bushes, etc.

They are also using finely ground and treated tires to resurface horse racing tracks, with very excellent results for the health of the horses (not as many injuries when racing).

And, of course, there are companies building houses out of old tires. Those are interesting.

Entrepreneurship, thinking green-- lots of jobs can be created by thinking out of the box.

David K - 3-10-2009 at 01:06 PM

I just want to get back to Baja!:bounce:

Google Earth is close, but no cigar!:light:

I hope we all can remain friends no matter what our politics are... Friendship is more important than 'being right' (or 'left')!!!:tumble:

Sharksbaja - 3-10-2009 at 01:12 PM

Right on! (no pun intended):lol:

djh - 3-10-2009 at 01:21 PM

Quote:
I hope we all can remain friends no matter what our politics are... Friendship is more important than 'being right' (or 'left')!!!:tumble:


There's the DK we love !
Amen to that, David. PEOPLE are more important than things (like politics :-).
djh (the other david)

David K - 3-10-2009 at 01:24 PM

WHO... ME??? :lol:




(photo by Doug Means at the Fred Hall Boat Show, Del Mar 2003)

tigerdog - 3-10-2009 at 01:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by morgaine7
Quote:
Originally posted by tigerdog
If you want to gain an understanding of how the whole thing went down, I highly recommend watching CNBC's documentary "House of Cards, The Definitive Look At The Origins Of Today's Global Economic Crisis". You can watch it online at Hulu (for free), and I promise it is NOT boring. Break out the popcorn; it's a couple hours long. ;)
http://www.hulu.com/watch/59026/cnbc-originals-house-of-card...

"Sorry, currently our video library can only be streamed from within the United States". :( Thanks for posting it, though. It sounds informative.

Kate


Bummer. Well, for what it's worth you can catch the first 8 or 9 minutes of it on YouTube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11li6Iw4TeY

You can get some of it at MSNBC, too (text and video)
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29163182/

Gotta love the opening quote for the show: "Let's hope we are all wealthy and retired by the time this house of cards falters." --internal email, Wall Street, 12/15/06

If you get CNBC, it will be on again Sunday, March 15, 2009 at 9p ET. It's worth the watch (or Tivo it)

Iflyfish - 3-10-2009 at 01:56 PM

Barry A.
You stated:

"The HUGE PROBLEM that is looming over all this, and has not been addressed adaquately, is the growing disparity between the "have nots, and the haves", and until we reverse that trend (and I have no idea how to do that) we are headed for big-time problems, which are already haunting us---------the "folks" simply cannot be left out (even tho largely a perception problem), or all hell will break loose.

Redistribution is ABSOLUTELY NOT THE ANSWER, and that I KNOW. But something MUST be done, and done soon. Maybe "Iflyfish" and others have a solution----if so, I would like to hear it."

I believe djh gets at this with the following comment:

"The common theme with both the D's and the R's is that they are socializing the debts of the rich, after allowing the unregulated criminals to skulk away with immense individual and corporate fortunes.... The profit was never socialized..."

My view is that wealth is always being redistributed. It flows from one group to another.

Wealth has been redistributed from the lower and middle class to the upper class for the past 20plus years in unprecented amounts. Now the top 10% own 40% of the wealth. An example of this is the amount of Corporate Executive pay has escalated during this time. The gap between wage earner and Executives has widened again in an unprescented rate.

Look at the amounts paid to Executives of Financial, Insurance, Drug and Medical Services industries. Trillions of dollars have been redistrubuted to the upper class during the past 20plus years. That is redistribution of wealth. The term has been hijacked. It is actually a value neutral term. Capitalism, Socialism and Communism are all engaged in strategies to distribute and redistribute wealth.

In Socialist and Communist economies the government, the people, own both the raw materials and the means of production and distribution. In Capitalist countries individuals can own the raw materials, means of production and distribution. Both need to find ways of accomplishing the distribution and redistribution of wealth. This is the function of taxation. It moves money from private hands to the government, the people.

The inherant flaw of Capitalism is that wealth accrues to a few, it simply works that way. If too much wealth accrues to a few, is distributed by the economy to a few, then there must be ways found to "level the playing field" or eventually you get social unrest and revolution, either by force as in China, Russia, Cuba etc. or you do it by the ballot box i.e. the USofA in the last election.

The inherant flaw of Socialism and Communism is that incentive for creativity and generitivity is minimalized as the basic needs of the people are provided for. There is little incentive to achieve a lot when you are provided with most of your needs. In Communist and Socialist centrally planned economies there is little incentive for creating something new as the profits go to the people. See the countries of the old Soviet Union.

No system is perfect and all must find methods for distributing and redistributing wealth.

One can see the current efforts of the new administration is to find some ways to redistribute wealth by putting money in the hands of working people by providing funding of last resort to businesses that are engaged in all sorts of endeavors including infrastructure repair and development. This is a form of redistribution of wealth and appropriatly labeled as such. Most economists agree with this strategy in the face of collapse of the Capitalist economy that was morphed out of all proportion by manipulation of value of home mortgages and the lack of the financial industry to stand behind their loans since the values were so highly leveraged and bloated so as to have no clear relation to the real value.

The rest is now history that we are re-living if you go back and review the history of the USofA economy and it's bubbles and busts, the Robber Barrons, The Great Depression, The New Deal etc.

Iflyfish

Sharksbaja - 3-10-2009 at 02:52 PM

Good take Flyfish. I believe you have it figured out. Now how do you convince that 10 percent to share that 40 percent? Nobody like to give away money(except me it seems) and how do you convince people to be capitalists if the incentive(being rich) looks less attractive.

I see the argument though, these folks believe their wealth was legit and they worked to earn it. Isn't that the American dream?

So when we speak of leveling the playing field through taxation and opportunity we also speak about about equal taxation for all demographics. Isn't that the fairest way?

I mean why should the rich only pay out an average of 6% while everyone else is in the 14% range. I was naive about that for a long time. I figured they paid their lawyers, accountants etc to make that happen.

It just came with the turf I figured. Little did I realize exactly how unfair and how much that "free" money amounted to.

So the new pill is big to swallow for the wealthy. I think it's called fear. Fear of losing money. It's no wonder all we hear are the naysayers dumping on Obama.
Isn't the media owned primarily by just a few rich cats? It seems that way.


btw, I always have had some contention for the 40 year olds who cashed in on the real estate market and retired at 45. Now I'm not so sure that gamble paid off for those who stayed in. :no:

Iflyfish - 3-10-2009 at 03:50 PM

Sharks,

There needs to be some balance established and it is an ongoing process. The pendulum swings and we are now in the beginning of another swing.

There is and always will be a tension in the dynamics between Owner-Management/Labor, Capitalists/Labor, Church/State, Haves/Have Nots, Weak/Strong, Male/Female etc. No one likes the Tax Collector and never have in history. No one wants their ox gored.

It would appear from laboratory research that Bubbles are inherent in markets and they ALWAYS show up in studies that are well controlled and reproducible. People find it very hard to not follow the bubble, even in the face of clear evidence. Greed is part of this process. There is reason for the inclusion of Greed, Avarice and Sloth in the Seven Deadly Sins. These human behaviors are to be found throughout history and there needs to be a form of counterbalance to these inherent motivations; thus the need for laws and a “balance of power”. Sic Transit Gloria Mundi, Latin for: Thus Passes the Glory of the World. If one reads Roman History you will find exactly the same dynamics.

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 3-10-2009 at 04:00 PM

I too have noticed the general civility of this very difficult discussion and really appreciate it.

I have also noticed that there are over 4,500 hits to this thread, more than any I can recall in the recent past. It is clear that there is a lot of interest in the topic and a lot of very good dialogue about it.

We are fortunate to be part of a community where a discussion like this can take place and where real differences can be expressed and not get flamed.

It is clear to me that this topic is one that is vital to many on this forum and I am glad that it has been allowed to continue.

Iflyfish

Bajahowodd - 3-10-2009 at 04:54 PM

I have two comments. First, this thread has become about as "off-topic" as one could imagine.

Second- I truly hope we aren't walking in the footsteps of Rome.

Sharksbaja - 3-10-2009 at 05:34 PM

Somone say Baja!

desertcpl - 3-10-2009 at 05:49 PM

Baja

comitan - 3-10-2009 at 06:01 PM

I'm with iflyfish.

David K - 3-10-2009 at 06:03 PM

ME TOO!!:yes::yes:

comitan - 3-10-2009 at 06:27 PM

No, No, No.:O:O:O

BajaNuts - 3-10-2009 at 06:40 PM

did I just hear an..........AGREEMENT?!?!??!?!?:o:o:o

BajaGringo - 3-10-2009 at 07:09 PM

I firmly believe that once you leave party allegiance and political rhetoric behind, most reasonable folks tend to agree for the most part on a majority of the issues. Common sense and common values will prevail (hopefully). This thread has only supported my theory in that regard.

Thanks Nomads...

Bob H - 3-10-2009 at 07:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaNuts
did I just hear an..........AGREEMENT?!?!??!?!?:o:o:o


I would have loved to know what JR would have said along this great thread! Great thread... keep it going.
Bob H

djh - 3-10-2009 at 07:43 PM

Yes, some good, healthy exchanges . . . Know Fear ? NO FEAR !

or as an old friend used to say: "Live in Love or Live in Fear"

Time to say goodnight ?

Good night, Johnboy,

Good night, Grampa.

:)

PS.... Reward for missing avatar.... last seen with a bottle of Sauza in one hand and a roll of TP in the other....

[Edited on 3-11-2009 by djh]

dianaji - 3-11-2009 at 12:03 PM

http://www.timesrecordnews.com/news/2009/feb/05/no-headline-...

funny, but not funny!

Skeet/Loreto - 3-11-2009 at 04:54 PM

Iflyfish:

Do you know that a Mexicano Worker starts out here in Texas at a Min. of $12.50 and Hour, the same for a Muslim, Black , White , of yellow.

Do you know that Autoworkers,members of Unions make $40 to $70 Dollars and Hour?

Do you know the Awewome amoutn of small Business that are making or were making 100% profit on their business but were paying large amounts for their employees health Insurance itc.

I worked my Butt off 17 hours a Day for 10 years, saved my money, invested in Real Estate, Cleaned up after Renters and ended up with a fairly good retirement .

Why do you keep pushing and downing the Rich??. Do you not have the Intellitect or the Ability to go out and work , make money, save money and get a little Rich yourself.

It it easy!! All you have to do is think, Act, Risk, and use your "God Given Brains".

I am beginning to think that you are one of those "Commies' or Socialise" that was raised /brainwashed to beleive that everyone is Equal-- It is not True!
Why do you think that certain parts of a Culture never improve their Lot??
Look at Africa, India and the Chinese--Everyone of the Races and Nations are Different.

We cannot all be the same Level--How Dull would that Be??

Skeet


Barry: Independence is a great Place- Manson liked it well! I liked it well as I lived in Bishop for Three Years. Have a Cenntinell Coin from Inyo county.
Want to buy it.??

Skeet

Remmember you guys "Do Fot Dear. Take life as an Adventure and Live! Live! Live!

comitan - 3-11-2009 at 05:04 PM

It was nice while it lasted.:o:o:o

Boring

Dave - 3-11-2009 at 05:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
We cannot all be the same Level--How Dull would that Be??



Iflyfish - 3-11-2009 at 10:47 PM

Skeet:

You wrote the following and I will introject my comments:

Iflyfish:

Do you know that a Mexicano Worker starts out here in Texas at a Min. of $12.50 and Hour, the same for a Muslim, Black , White , of yellow.

I am glad we have equal rights employment laws, which have been resisted by Conservatives for years.

Do you know that Autoworkers,members of Unions make $40 to $70 Dollars and Hour?

Good for them, I wish more workers wre able to make that sort of moiney. People died in the Labor Movement so that workers could make a decent, family wage, living. The inequity between the wages earned by CEO's and Labor has widened exponentially over the past 20 years. The inequety is seen every day whe we read of CEOs earning MILLIONS of dollars in BONUSES over and above their wages.

Do you know the Awewome amoutn of small Business that are making or were making 100% profit on their business but were paying large amounts for their employees health Insurance itc.

I have advocated for a Single Payer Health Care system for forty years. How in the world did we get the profit motive mixed up with the provision of medical care. The cost of the current system puts undo burden on business to provide what our government aught to provide as a right.
Our Declaration of Independance reads: "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.: Life includes health care.

I worked my Butt off 17 hours a Day for 10 years, saved my money, invested in Real Estate, Cleaned up after Renters and ended up with a fairly good retirement .

Good for you. Me too. I have worked for everything that I have, just as you have. No silver spoon or coupons to clip just a lot of hard and rewarding work. Near the end of my career I was making $125 per hour. As a Professional person that level of wage is considered reasonable.

Why do you keep pushing and downing the Rich??. Do you not have the Intellitect or the Ability to go out and work , make money, save money and get a little Rich yourself.

I am rich. It is not the rich I am talking about, it's the upper/ruling class in this country, the top 10% who own 40% of the assets, it's the multi-millionaires in Congress that I have a bone to pick with. I feel incredibly blessed with being born in a place and time where public education was available to me at reasonable cost in the State of California in the mid 1960s/70s. The advent of the Reagan Administration and Conservative Propositions cut school funding and gutted the Mental Health System where I was working.

It it easy!! All you have to do is think, Act, Risk, and use your "God Given Brains".

It helps to be white, intelligent, reasonably good looking, have access to education, have parents who nurtured me and peers who were on similar tracks. We are not all born equal.

I am beginning to think that you are one of those "Commies' or Socialise" that was raised /brainwashed to beleive that everyone is Equal-- It is not True!

I don't believe that everyone is equal. Some are born with inheritances that allow them to never work, or to fail and never really have to worry about the consequences. Being born with extensive wealth allows one to be treated with incredible indulgence i.e. George Bush, Paris Hilton etc. being born black in a ghetto does not provide for equal opportunity. These people feel entitled and often superior to others i.e. Dick Chaney "so what?"

Why do you think that certain parts of a Culture never improve their Lot??
Look at Africa, India and the Chinese--Everyone of the Races and Nations are Different.

Multiple causation, there is no simple answer to this question. One must also look at what is considered "improvement".

We cannot all be the same Level--How Dull would that Be??

We all will never be at the same level. That is an over simplification of what I have been saying. I have been describing a pendulum that swings toward excess by the upper class i.e. pre French Revolution, "let them eat cake", or currently "so what", the Robber Barons, the assumption of entitlement by the upper classes "we are superior because we are rich", Chinese Capitalists before the revolution, Russian Monarchy and excess before the Revolution. This excess eventually leads to some form of social upheaval by the lower classes. We are very fortunate to have a country with mechanisms in place to moderate this process. We have just experienced one of those revolutions in a peaceful way. The excesses of the ruling class have become apparent enought o enough people that the trigger was pulled in the election booth and not in the streets. We are fortunate indeed. It ain't that way in much of the rest of the world.

Skeet

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 3-11-2009 at 10:50 PM

comitan: "it was nice while it lasted"

Maybe it still is. Time will tell.

Iflyfish

BajaGringo - 3-11-2009 at 11:47 PM

Thanks for that last post Iflyfish. You articulated the very points I felt when reading Skeets last comments...

Bajahowodd - 3-12-2009 at 12:24 AM

Sheet. I worked hard for 35 years and apparently don't have anywhere near the wealth of fishy or skeets. God willing, what's left will still be available to me when this current downturn smooths out. But I have to side with the fishy guy. Of all the idiotic shortcomings of this great nation of ours, the ability to provide decent and respectable healthcare to everyone is paramount. Taking the burden from business will transform so many businesses now in peril, and bring us to a standard that approximates the rest of our industrialized competitors. Who in the hell are the conservatives trying to protect in this debate, by obstructing a move toward joining the the competetive free world, other than the fat cats that run the health insurance industry that espouse as their mantra, deny, deny, deny. Folks, put aside your political differences. Provide a secure health program for everyone that will enable our wonderful country to compete on a level playing field with the world.

[Edited on 3-12-2009 by Bajahowodd]

Barry A. - 3-12-2009 at 06:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Sheet. I worked hard for 35 years and apparently don't have anywhere near the wealth of fishy or skeets. God willing, what's left will still be available to me when this current downturn smooths out. But I have to side with the fishy guy. Of all the idiotic shortcomings of this great nation of ours, the ability to provide decent and respectable healthcare to everyone is paramount. Taking the burden from business will transform so many businesses now in peril, and bring us to a standard that approximates the rest of our industrialized competitors. Who in the hell are the conservatives trying to protect in this debate, by obstructing a move toward joining the the competetive free world, other than the fat cats that run the health insurance industry that espouse as their mantra, deny, deny, deny. Folks, put aside your political differences. Provide a secure health program for everyone that will enable our wonderful country to compete on a level playing field with the world.

[Edited on 3-12-2009 by Bajahowodd]


-------how you going to pay for it???

--------and with it, private insurance cannot compete----therefore our "standard of care" will slowly diminish as it is in other Countries with "univ health care".

Without profit, few advances in knowledge.

(My last comment as I am off the net for a month) :lol:

Barry

Skeet/Loreto - 3-12-2009 at 07:33 AM

First Dave: Why did you not also Post a Photo of a very Rich Person???
Are you being Truthfull showing Reality or trying to show that there is only One level of Society to be aware of???

I Fly:Equal Rights? Resisted by Conservatives?? I challenge you to do a small investigation of the present day "Workmans Comp. Law in the State of Calif.
Have you ever thought about why you have safe Milk to Drink and the Labor, Thought and Money to develop that Quart of Milk for You??

Some People have the ability to know what makes them Happy and unafraid- From the Milker to the Owner and Satisfied>

Autoworkers: I would wager that some of those Mexicano Field workers would love to see some of thos Union Workers producing a new Car that hey could Afford.


Yes Health care is your Right, but it is not my Right to be forced to Pay for your Health Care. .Why should you set on your Duff, smoke DOPE, Drink Boose, and injure yourself and then expect me to take care of You> No Way!

"It helps to be White"??? You have got to be Kidding- Wonder if Obama thinks that Way?

Take a look at any Commercial and tell me that a White Person has an Advantage.The only advantage at this point is that People of White Color have control of most of the Wealth of this Country. Did no seem to affect Condi Rice or Colin Powell.

I was born in Poverty rasied myself through Work and Risk
A Black Person rasied in South CEntral LA born at the same time did not.

My fault or His??
Same question about China, India, Mexico. Why do some people excell in Character, Wealth, education,??
Do they aquire all these things if they are "Given" the chance ??
Might it be that they do not really want them but are being Lead by Fear to Think that someone owes them the Wealth.

The last area of concern:

I have a different take on this revoultion in the Voting Booth:

We have, since the 60's raised a Generation of "Fearful young People that have been lied to by the Liberal College Profs, The Media, The Drug Dealers, The Commies, and generally those who beleive we are all equal-Work or Not/

Now this Generation which can be swayed very easily by the Mdeia were lead into the Polling Booth and directed to Whom to Vote . And that is fine, that is the way it works, but one of these days that Generation will have to Pay, Just as my Generation has to pay Now.

At my Age, I know that I could start over again and do well. I am not Fearfull of any thing including my approaching demise nor any sense of failure if I had to start again

Do not Fear!.

Iflyfish - 3-12-2009 at 08:23 AM

Skeet:

For what it's worth, it is spring, and the sap is starting to flow again: A poem for you Skeet.

The Mending Wall: Robert Frost

Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That sends the frozen-ground-swell under it,
And spills the upper boulders in the sun,
And makes gaps even two can pass abreast.
The work of hunters is another thing:
I have come after them and made repair
Where they have left not one stone on a stone,
But they would have the rabbit out of hiding,
To please the yelping dogs. The gaps I mean,
No one has seen them made or heard them made,
But at spring mending-time we find them there.
I let my neighbor know beyond the hill;
And on a day we meet to walk the line
And set the wall between us once again.
We keep the wall between us as we go.
To each the boulders that have fallen to each.
And some are loaves and some so nearly balls
We have to use a spell to make them balance:
'Stay where you are until our backs are turned!'
We wear our fingers rough with handling them.
Oh, just another kind of out-door game,
One on a side. It comes to little more:
There where it is we do not need the wall:
He is all pine and I am apple orchard.
My apple trees will never get across
And eat the cones under his pines, I tell him.
He only says, 'Good fences make good neighbors'.
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
'Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it
Where there are cows?
But here there are no cows.
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down.' I could say 'Elves' to him,
But it's not elves exactly, and I'd rather
He said it for himself. I see him there
Bringing a stone grasped firmly by the top
In each hand, like an old-stone savage armed.
He moves in darkness as it seems to me~
Not of woods only and the shade of trees.
He will not go behind his father's saying,
And he likes having thought of it so well
He says again, "Good fences make good neighbors."

Skeet/Loreto - 3-12-2009 at 08:43 AM

Thanks Ifly:

I had the great pleasure of peronally meeting Robert Frost- The Artist who did the "Grand Tetons" paintingts.

The Man on the other side of the Fence reaches over and ask for Help.

I say Yes I will help you, What can I Do??
I would like you to give me 1/2 of your wealth>
Fine, come over an Labor with me while I strive to better myself and I shall Share with You while you better yourself.
Now tell me "Will you share 1/2 of that that you have received from me??


Skeet

David K - 3-12-2009 at 08:59 AM

You see Skeet, the problem is the schools don't teach about American freedom, capitalism and personal responsibilty anymore...

The 'golden rule' today has become : To each according to his needs, From each accroding to his abilty. ... (Karl Marx) :no::no::no:

The blindness of those in power now is amazing... Communism has failed every place it was tried... people suffer, all have less, and only the few party members live well (on the backs of the workers). China has success because they adopted capitalist methods and have 0 capital gains taxes... THAT promotes growth.

Dropping the tax rate gives everyone more money to spend and THAT is what grows the economy, not government run programs! When tax rates are dropped, the amount of revenue from taxes increases!

cantinflas - 3-12-2009 at 09:12 AM

The blindness in people forgetting about the last 8 years is even more amazing.

Terry28 - 3-12-2009 at 09:29 AM

PLEASE, PLEASE, SOMEBODY KILL THIS THREAD...

David K - 3-12-2009 at 09:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by cantinflas
The blindness in people forgetting about the last 8 years is even more amazing.


Those last 8 years were wonderful for the most part, growth and job creation way up... and we are fortunate that we prevented any further attacks on the U.S. by the actions of the Bush administration. The previous 8 years to Bush's, of inaction to the attack on the U.S.S. Cole and first World Trade bombing, and other non-action against terrorism is what emboldened our enemies to carry out the 9-11 attack.

(you must be young and listen to MSNBC or CNN?):lol:

Skeet/Loreto - 3-12-2009 at 09:31 AM

The Blindness in people forgetting about the last 20 years is even more amazing!

News Flash Follows:

Last week in the small Central Valley Town of Dos palos Calif. the Principal of the Hi School was "let Go" , Yesterday morning at about 10 AM Most of the students present got up and went to the Gym in Protest of that principal being "Let Go".

Thak is what it has come too: Students running the School because they are not in FEAR of gettin their Butts Busted for defying the Authority of their P{arents and Elders.


Sure would be nice to line them up and give them all two good Licks of the Paddle like that I received from Principal E. L Hunter at the horce Mann Elementary School in Texas.

Taught me Respect not FEAR.


cantiflas: I still have not forgotten Harry s. Truman nor will I ever forget Carter and 21% Interest Rate I had to get stuck with when I was first starting out in Real Estate. Made me disrespect the Demos when it came to their knowledge of Money. Still do not have respect for their Money programs

BajaGringo - 3-12-2009 at 09:48 AM

I find it slightly disturbing how much some of you seem to value your monetary wealth obtained in life over all else on this planet. When I reach the end of my days and measure my worth as a man I pray that it will be much more than just the money in my bank accounts, stock portfolio or real estate. I strongly believe there was a lesson God wanted to make to us when he sent His Son to be born to a poor family, live a simple life of a carpenter and who dedicated His life to helping others first and above all else. I guess he would be labled a "LOSER" by some of you that have posted here.

I sense that has a lot to do with what divides us on this issue and it saddens me greatly...



[Edited on 3-12-2009 by BajaGringo]

motoged - 3-12-2009 at 09:48 AM

This thread has absolutely nothing to do with Baja:no::no::no:

Aside from the limited scope of "either-or" thinking, it seems to suggest that anyone able to think outside the box of Attila the Hun's ideology is a communist.:no::no::no:

If the moderator is awake, would you please move this thread elsewhere.

Thank you.

Iflyfish - 3-12-2009 at 10:37 AM

I will sign off of this thread. I would rather be in Kamloops and be "fishing a lake a day as long as you stay". Some minds are not open to anything new and resort to character assasination in the face of confrontation of delusion. These ad hominum arguments do nothing to promote dialogue or increase understanding. Comitan was right. I rose to the bait, but then Iflyfish.

I want to clarify one issue. I guage my wealth not in terms of my net worth but in terms of the joy I have in my family and friends. I am not really rich in terms most often considered as measures of wealth i.e. money. I am wealthy if one considers my means in relation to Slum Dog Millionaire, a movie well worth viewing when we judge people as morally deficient because they are not wealthy or deam ourselves to have greater virtue because we do posess more material culture.

Iflyfish

Skeet/Loreto - 3-12-2009 at 10:45 AM

I have noticed that there is a lot more Posts by people asking about "What will happen to Baja as a result of the "Fear" that one will lose their Life Savings and be unable to escape to Baja.

Motoged, there is nothing wrong about think"out of the Box", what is wrong is for you or anyone else is for you or them to make False statements while supporting their Theories.

I think this has been a Good Thread and and ask that it continue.

baitcast - 3-12-2009 at 11:08 AM

From off topic Food for thought.
Rob
What a profound short little paragraph that says it all!!!

"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for, that my dear friend, is about the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."

~~~~~ Dr. Adrian Rogers,1931

Bajahowodd - 3-12-2009 at 11:32 AM

Rogers, the evangelist preacher, should have stuck to saving the souls of his flock.

vandenberg - 3-12-2009 at 12:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
I find it slightly disturbing how much some of you seem to value your monetary wealth obtained in life over all else on this planet. When I reach the end of my days and measure my worth as a man I pray that it will be much more than just the money in my bank accounts, stock portfolio or real estate. I strongly believe there was a lesson God wanted to make to us when he sent His Son to be born to a poor family, live a simple life of a carpenter and who dedicated His life to helping others first and above all else. I guess he would be labled a "LOSER" by some of you that have posted here.

I sense that has a lot to do with what divides us on this issue and it saddens me greatly...



[Edited on 3-12-2009 by BajaGringo]


You're in dire need of a pulpit.:biggrin:

Maybe Skeet will build you one.

Jesse

Baja Bernie - 3-12-2009 at 02:18 PM

You nailed it as usual.............Seems far too many folks have learned that using fear is the most effective way to force other folks into places they do not wish to be.

I try to keep my signature upper most in mind when being pushed about by the fear mongers.................

Still pleased to call you--'friend'

toneart - 3-12-2009 at 04:22 PM

Thank you Jesse for starting this thread.

Thank you Bernie for showing up. We missed you. You have a lot to teach us all, in your prose and by example.

Thank you Iflyfish for so eloquently and so clearly stating what should be the obvious. Unfortunately it is obvious only to those who can open their eyes and their minds.

Thank you BajaGringo for your insightful contributions. As with the the title of this string, I FEAR that that you have really delineated the boundries that divide us as a country. It saddens me too.

Yesterday I went fishing. I caught a couple. I also drank a cerveza, wrote a poem and continued to think about this string and this forum. The conclusion I came to is this: We are all expressing who we are through our writings here. Sharing who you all are is enlightning. I have learned a lot that is constructive. I have also revisited the conclusion that political discussions aren't going to change any minds.
Some are hard wired to live in the dark. It is a waste of time to try changing minds.

So-o-o-o-o....I'm going fishing again tomorrow. :cool:
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