BajaNomad

Our First Biosphere Reserve Bracelets in Asuncion!!!

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fishbuck - 6-24-2009 at 06:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Osprey
Well the bracelet was to show you paid a fee as a tourist. Remember, way back in the thread? Go back Buck. Go back.


Ya bird, we're way past that. Try to keep up will you.

Hook - 6-24-2009 at 07:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Osprey
Ah, choices and more choices. How far does the $5 go with the ladies in the bar in Vizcaino? Joe Buck, if you stay on the main highway you'll have less user fees to pay and you can still satisfy some of your Baja habits and itches, not have to worry about "who got what and what was it for?" You'll know pretty well the answers to those questions after about 10 days.


:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

Emphasis on the ITCH!!!!

DENNIS - 6-24-2009 at 07:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hook
Emphasis on the ITCH!!!!



And the BURN. OUCH

Bajaboy - 6-24-2009 at 08:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
Quote:
Originally posted by Osprey
Well the bracelet was to show you paid a fee as a tourist. Remember, way back in the thread? Go back Buck. Go back.


Ya bird, we're way past that. Try to keep up will you.


Okay, I'll ask for about the 5th time, can anyone tell me who needs a bracelet? I've put the question out to a few folks who keep coming back at me implying I don't want to pay a fee. I keep asking who has to pay and what is the money for? And why isn't there a written record of this? If it is written policy then there would be no chance for someone's reputation to be "smeared."

It's not the message but the messenger.....

fishbuck - 6-24-2009 at 08:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Hook
Emphasis on the ITCH!!!!



And the BURN. OUCH


All I can say is you guys are definately doing it wrong!

vandenberg - 6-24-2009 at 08:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Hook
Emphasis on the ITCH!!!!



And the BURN. OUCH


All I can say is you guys are definately doing it wrong!


The Loreto Marine park bracelets don't burn.:biggrin:

fishbuck - 6-25-2009 at 02:04 AM

Ya, none of the poachers stealing all of the fish out of the park have been burned have they. They set their gill nets all around the "park".
Or that big tuna clipper with helicopter in there scooping up all your fish.
I doubt if they bought a band either.
Only honest people buy the band. And yes, they are getting burned.

[Edited on 6-25-2009 by fishbuck]

woody with a view - 6-25-2009 at 05:44 AM

and do i have to wear the bracelet ALL YEAR LONG in between road trips back and forth?

Hook - 6-25-2009 at 06:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
Ya, none of the poachers stealing all of the fish out of the park have been burned have they. They set their gill nets all around the "park".
Or that big tuna clipper with helicopter in there scooping up all your fish.
I doubt if they bought a band either.
Only honest people buy the band. And yes, they are getting burned.

[Edited on 6-25-2009 by fishbuck]


The man has a point. This is my biggest complaint about the whole concept of conservation of species in Mexico.

It's like NAFTA. Sounded so good.........Free Trade Agreement. Problem is, it benefits mostly businesses and the rest of us still pay 17% or so to get our HOUSEHOLD goods down to our house.

jorgie - 6-25-2009 at 07:09 AM

when in BA will Jamie and /or Shari have yearly "bracelets" available ????

wilderone - 6-25-2009 at 08:32 AM

"de actividades como limpieza de áreas, vigilancia, monitoreos, protección y activities such as cleaning up areas, surveillance, monitoring, protection and acciones de restauración. restoration action"

Obviously they've looked the other way at Mag Bay and let the turtles be slaughtered on a regular basis. They must know this and do nothing.

wilderone - 6-25-2009 at 08:47 AM

"who needs a bracelet?"

For now, if you are within a biosphere reserve and are participating in an activity that apparently has a definitive parameter that can be taxed with the fee - such as fishing with a panguero, spending the day at an island, camping at an established campground within the reserve (probably this is still to come-e.g., coming soon at Rene's? camping at Bahia san Ignacio?), whale watching. and maybe cave painting tours now (INAH permit, camera permit, guide fee, biosphere preserve fee). Taxing the activities within Viscaino is emerging and as resources allow, guidelines will become clearer. For now, to be aware of the policy is all you need to know - if someone hits you up for the fee, you'll know why.

Bajaboy - 6-25-2009 at 08:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
"who needs a bracelet?"

For now, if you are within a biosphere reserve and are participating in an activity that apparently has a definitive parameter that can be taxed with the fee - such as fishing with a panguero, spending the day at an island, camping at an established campground within the reserve (probably this is still to come-e.g., coming soon at Rene's? camping at Bahia san Ignacio?), whale watching. and maybe cave painting tours now (INAH permit, camera permit, guide fee, biosphere preserve fee). Taxing the activities within Viscaino is emerging and as resources allow, guidelines will become clearer. For now, to be aware of the policy is all you need to know - if someone hits you up for the fee, you'll know why.


Is this your opinion or fact? Do you have anything in writing as I have heard other activities "might" be subject. Again, I have no problem with the fees but am trying to sort through the gray areas.

Bajaboy - 6-25-2009 at 09:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wilderone
"who needs a bracelet?"

For now, if you are within a biosphere reserve and are participating in an activity that apparently has a definitive parameter that can be taxed with the fee - such as fishing with a panguero, spending the day at an island, camping at an established campground within the reserve (probably this is still to come-e.g., coming soon at Rene's? camping at Bahia san Ignacio?), whale watching. and maybe cave painting tours now (INAH permit, camera permit, guide fee, biosphere preserve fee). Taxing the activities within Viscaino is emerging and as resources allow, guidelines will become clearer. For now, to be aware of the policy is all you need to know - if someone hits you up for the fee, you'll know why.


One more question....so would the tour operator be responsible for determining if a person was exempt for paying the fee? That is, say a resident was going whale watching, would the whale watching operator decide that person did not need a bracelet? Or if someone from Santa Rosalia decided to camp at Shari's campground, would she determine whether or not those people needed to pay the extra $5 per person per night?

Thanks in advance for helping clear the air a bit.

BajaGringo - 6-25-2009 at 09:57 AM

I just stumbled across this thread and browsed through all the posts. My only comment is that economic times must really be tough when folks can get so worked up over five dollars.

I think there are much bigger fish to fry out there folks. You are spending more than five dollars a day just in the amount gas has increased in the last several months if you live north of the border. You are saving much more than five dollars a day in the peso:dollar exchange rate compared to when it was 10:1.

As far as where the five dollars goes? If it works like north of the border the money probably goes to Mexico City to be doled back out in federally funded, local programs. And yes, they will probably take a cut.

You can have my five dollars and I promise not to even ask...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

gnukid - 6-25-2009 at 10:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
I just stumbled across this thread and browsed through all the posts. My only comment is that economic times must really be tough when folks can get so worked up over five dollars.

I think there are much bigger fish to fry out there folks. You are spending more than five dollars a day just in the amount gas has increased in the last several months if you live north of the border. You are saving much more than five dollars a day in the peso:dollar exchange rate compared to when it was 10:1.

As far as where the five dollars goes? If it works like north of the border the money probably goes to Mexico City to be doled back out in federally funded, local programs. And yes, they will probably take a cut.

You can have my five dollars and I promise not to even ask...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


You missed the salient points of the discussion (not my points but the general points are:

The fee is an arbitrary fee to be collected from certain people and not others

The fee is for undertermined reasons

How the fees are managed is unclear

The justification and authorization of the fee is unclear

Its possible the manner in which the fee is applied will have negative impact on the local economies

Its possible the fee will not positively impact the gross polluters

gnukid - 6-25-2009 at 10:12 AM

Personally I would consider the fee to be something which can occur when dealing with commercial operators only. This is voluntary and not something that would be demanded of the general population who can neither afford it nor can justify it, obviously.

And yes I have seen many tour operators be flexible about the fee with consideration for those who can not afford or can not justify paying.

It appears on the surface the only people who qualify to pay are FM-T holders who are on commercial tours who can pay directly through their package purchase.

woody with a view - 6-25-2009 at 12:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
I just stumbled across this thread and browsed through all the posts. My only comment is that economic times must really be tough when folks can get so worked up over five dollars.

I think there are much bigger fish to fry out there folks. You are spending more than five dollars a day just in the amount gas has increased in the last several months if you live north of the border. You are saving much more than five dollars a day in the peso:dollar exchange rate compared to when it was 10:1.

As far as where the five dollars goes? If it works like north of the border the money probably goes to Mexico City to be doled back out in federally funded, local programs. And yes, they will probably take a cut.

You can have my five dollars and I promise not to even ask...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


maybe we can plan on having a stack of 5's to hand out to everyone who simply asks for the "fee"?

so do i have to wear the bracelet year round, until the new color comes out or can i keep it in the glove box?

fishbuck - 6-25-2009 at 03:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BajaGringo
I just stumbled across this thread and browsed through all the posts. My only comment is that economic times must really be tough when folks can get so worked up over five dollars.

I think there are much bigger fish to fry out there folks. You are spending more than five dollars a day just in the amount gas has increased in the last several months if you live north of the border. You are saving much more than five dollars a day in the peso:dollar exchange rate compared to when it was 10:1.

As far as where the five dollars goes? If it works like north of the border the money probably goes to Mexico City to be doled back out in federally funded, local programs. And yes, they will probably take a cut.

You can have my five dollars and I promise not to even ask...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


It's not about the $5 and you know that.

shari - 6-26-2009 at 03:30 PM

Hi everyone...did ya miss me????

just back from a wonderful few days in San roque (which could really use a litter clean up...jaime says next year they will do san roque)

dianne, I hope you dont feel I am trying to smear Jaime in any way...I mentioned the gray areas and have only provided the answers he gave me to my questions...he is in a tough position all right and we will all have to smooth out the wrinkles in this.

the bracelets have been being used in the whale lagoons for a few years now and the reserve is just expanding their enforcement into our area now that it is getting more attention.

Woody...the passport is like a card you carry in your wallet and is good for a year in any reserve in the country...so no bracelet.

I bought a dozen "day" bracelets for our visitors but still am not clear on who exactly has to buy them...perhaps I can use my "criteria" too. Jaime sells them out of his garage office and the passport you have to get in GN but maybe Jaime might have them in the future. He is a nice man who speaks very good english and is just doing his job, he is very busy patrolling the area and organizing basura clean up etc. so isn't always home (which is why I bought some bracelets...so you can get them from me too sports fans....46 pesos)

Lets start with people going out on a panga...fishing or touring. But I am concerned about where it says activities like surfing, biking, swimming, camping, horseback riding etc. will be taxed too. I was told by the whale watchers that they havent asked for bracelets at the bike rental places yet.
I dont know about camping on private property within the municipality...but sounds like camping on the beach might apply.

I will keep you all posted on updates as my questions get answered. The idea was to let you all know that this was happening in our area...as well as campo rene, la bocana, abreojos etc.

What IS sad is that some very good fishing guides are unable to work as it really is challenging getting all the permits and they dont have the skills or money to do this...you have to be very serious to jump through the hoops and pay for it all...its a sizeable investment and we may raise our prices in order to try to get back some of our costs.

I hope this answers some of the questions although there are still alot of muddy waters to navigate.

fishbuck - 6-26-2009 at 03:42 PM

It doesn't sound so bad when you talk about it Shari!:cool:

shari - 6-26-2009 at 04:04 PM

This thread was intended to...
(a) announce the first bracelets and thus celebrate getting our permits

(b) inform nomads of new enforcement of old regs so they already are
prepared for it if they get charged....or can go and pay it with Jaime

(c) post a picture of a cool nomad asvazques and his awesome son benito who I wish to thank personally for dontating a bunch of great equipment for the baseball little league here...gracias carlos

so I propose a toast....or perhaps Dennis will do that...raise our glasses to us finally getting our Reserve permits!!! chin chin...salud and whew.

fishbuck - 6-26-2009 at 04:07 PM

If you're happy then I guess this is a good thing!:cool:

Don Alley - 6-26-2009 at 04:13 PM

All of Mexico's protected areas are works in progress. The rules, enforcement, are all evolving.

Each area has an advisory council, made up of appointed Mexican citizens. They have influence over what the park can do.

Park or protected area rules cannot violate federal laws. For example, bag limits for fish are a federal issue. However (and this may seem contradictory) the protected areas may close areas to fishing.

Who needs a bracelet? Anyone using the protected area who is not a local resident. In Loreto, the requirement has evolved from those going ashore at the islands to, presently, anyone launching at the ramp, even if they plan to fish/whale watch/swim/dive outside the park.

Granted, the bracelets and fee collections come first. Patient, persistent local (and perhaps visiting) opinion can possibly influence how funds are collected and spent. If, for example, you believe that paying for trash cleanups is not the best use of the funds, come up with an alternative and sell it to the locals.

In Loreto it has been frustrating to see increased efforts to collect fees while little of significance is done to protect anything. But recently there have been hints that things may change. There have been reports of significant enforcement of the few restrictions on nets. A local conservation group has been established and appears to have a dedicated and capable staffer who is willing to take on the status quo. IMO, positive changes may be coming, even if they may be slower than molasses.

Results may differ in different areas. Good luck to all the folks in Asuncion and I'll have a bracelet or a pass when I visit.

DENNIS - 6-26-2009 at 04:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by shari
so I propose a toast....or perhaps Dennis will do that...raise our glasses to us finally getting our Reserve permits!!! chin chin...salud and whew.



OK...Bottoms up......................................I'm talking about your beverage now.

woody with a view - 6-27-2009 at 06:22 AM

thanks Shari.

rpleger - 6-27-2009 at 06:50 AM

Chin Chin...

onego - 6-27-2009 at 07:17 AM

Shary, they will clean san roque next year? You should clean the mess you have with the local people of Guerrero Negro, Laguna de San Ignacio and now the people of BA.:lol:

jorgie - 6-27-2009 at 07:25 AM

this thread makes me realize that it's getting on to summer and time for me to clean my back yard ...........work , work , when will it get finished ...

shari - 6-27-2009 at 07:28 AM

On our beach walk yesterday Zoe and I planned a litter party in San Roque...BBQ, beach and village clean up this summer when we have more help. Most of the trash on the beach are plastic bottles...outboard oil bottles and the village is strewn with disposable plates, cups, bags etc. blown around by the wind.
It is maddening always picking up someone elses trash...the locals come to the beach and now they sometimes put their garbage in a bag but just leave it on the beach for the birds to get at and strew around. I am constantly picking up after people there.
I would like to commend bobby...a lurker...who camped there and gathered several bags of trash around the beach area he camped in....thanks man...maybe the Reserve could use it's criteria and not charge campers who pick up garbage??? I'm serious.

Packoderm - 6-27-2009 at 08:31 AM

I wouldn't complain if my biosphere fees went toward cleaning the local's trash - if the fees actually do get used for that. I'd like to see my fee money go towards renting a dump truck and picking up the rusted mattress springs and other discarded metal stuff from San Roque. Perhaps they should make locals buy a bracelet if caught littering. I'm glad they have the passport where we don't have to wear the all-inclusive resort type bracelets.

If the fees don't fund any kind of program, perhaps the fees can be thought to go towards relieving development pressures. I'd rather pay the 25 dollars to camp at San Roque rather than camp in front of a bunch of vacation homes for free. One of the things I like about San Roque is that there is a degree of freedom. Development would obliterate this. If developed, there would be people to tell you what you can and can not do. Even if the biosphere fees go to any particular individual's personal income, it would be in his best interest to promote his district as an area worth visiting. However, if they are going to sell off the land and build the big, ugly entry arches to pending mega resorts and that sort of stuff, then the biosphere fee system is a scam.

As far as who pays, we should just pay for the passport and then debate about it if you want. Family discounts or reduced fees for children should be an option. If I had an FM3 and had a home, I'd pay for the passport. It's their land after all, and it's up to us to take care of it for them. :lol: (just kidding)

shari - 6-27-2009 at 08:38 AM

I doubt the Reserve can/will stop development. Nearly everyone who comes here asks about the possibility of buying land in San Roque...the reason it is still nice and empty is that this area is in a legal battle between the ejido and cooperativa....it was always a fish camp even before the ejidos were formed...thus no sales yet thank goodness. The place is magic because it's empty and just an abandoned village. Time will tell what happens there so we enjoy it while we can.

we would love to be in on any kind of local consultation regarding Reserve issues, fee uses etc. I requested a meeting to be held here for information purposes.

by the way Packoderm....how's Lucy Lap dancer doing? Spooky is still waiting to immigrate to your place and did good job on the mouse population control in san roque.

[Edited on 6-27-2009 by shari]

flyfishinPam - 6-27-2009 at 03:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Osprey
Pam, could you please point us to the particular part of that link that shows the money goes to Mexico. Did you mean "all park money", just your local Loreto money or money in biospheres in general?
The site is in Spanish, I read a little Spanish and i can't clearly read where it tells me where the money ends up. It is vitally important that the money stays where it does the most good. It says nothing of FONMAR or Tourist User Fees in general or particular that I can find.


I am afraid that I don't have time to explain the many layers of beaurocracy in Mexico but conanp and conapesca and fonmar are different animals so to speak. on the conanp website that I posted it clearly states in spanish where the money goes, how much it costs and and how to pay. unfortunately as loaded with information the mexican beaurocratic websites are, they are difficult to navigate even if you do understand the language. if you do not want to believe what I say that is fine but I work with these agencies every day here. to me it sounds like the viscaino biosphere reserve is just getting their act together on collecting fees and issuing passes and also they seem to be still determining who needs one and who does not. they'll work it out eventually.

flyfishinPam - 6-27-2009 at 03:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
Quote:
Originally posted by Osprey
Well the bracelet was to show you paid a fee as a tourist. Remember, way back in the thread? Go back Buck. Go back.


Ya bird, we're way past that. Try to keep up will you.


Okay, I'll ask for about the 5th time, can anyone tell me who needs a bracelet?


for the second time anyone using the reserve who is not a resident.

I do not know how they control land users but here in Loreto all visitors (non residents) to Loreto's marine park need to have a permit (in bracelet or annual passport form). the permit allows one to basicaly use the park, snorkel, boat, fish, whale watch, sail, kayak, all water activities and technically beachcombing nature walks and photography. These are specifically stated in the conanp website under our particular park. I'm not saying I like the idea I am just telling the way it is.

Osprey - 6-27-2009 at 03:51 PM

It's not that I don't believe you. If you say all the money for all the reserves go to a big bag in the cellar of the old mission I would believe it. I believe what ever you say. You are not a liar. You are a fine woman. You are very smart and very honest. Enough?

flyfishinPam - 6-27-2009 at 03:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
Ya, none of the poachers stealing all of the fish out of the park have been burned have they. They set their gill nets all around the "park".
Or that big tuna clipper with helicopter in there scooping up all your fish.
I doubt if they bought a band either.
Only honest people buy the band. And yes, they are getting burned.

[Edited on 6-25-2009 by fishbuck]


while what you say is understandible we need to follow the laws and that is that but the part about the seiner you don't have completely correct because there is new news in that the park boundry and where that boat was at working will be key in an upcoming investigation on that boat. our photos and persistence helped and we wouldn't have been able to get anywhere if it weren't for this park being here. you ought to know by now in mexico things take time, slow down and help it happen don't just sit and complain. this isn't meant for just you its in a general sense.

flyfishinPam - 6-27-2009 at 03:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Osprey
It's not that I don't believe you. If you say all the money for all the reserves go to a big bag in the cellar of the old mission I would believe it. I believe what ever you say. You are not a liar. You are a fine woman. You are very smart and very honest. Enough?


geeze yes enough to embarass me. we are trying to change the situation of monies staying in the reserves where they are collected but this takes time. we will prevail but we must be patient.

flyfishinPam - 6-27-2009 at 03:58 PM

osprey and others that may be interested I have posted a pdf file on my site that you can download. it explains some studies that have taken place within the marine park at Loreto and some other good information. There are great scientists here working on good things and the wonderful thing is that we're getting them together with the local people who know this area intimately. we're hoping they can be trained to do some grunt (tech) work for upcoming studies. here's that link:

http://www.bajabigfish.com/responsibleusers.pdf

edited to say that above pdf is in English

[Edited on 6-27-2009 by flyfishinPam]

Cypress - 6-27-2009 at 04:02 PM

If you're a "resident" you've got a free pass.:yes: The residents will soon have it all to themselves.:D

Skipjack Joe - 6-28-2009 at 09:21 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Don Alley

Who needs a bracelet? Anyone using the protected area who is not a local resident.



It seems to me that the American tourist is being targeted to clean up the mess in these (p)reserves. That's wrong. Those who are most responsible should be charged the most (or at least the same), regardless of their income.

The whole thing seems like yet another way to fleece the tourist. It's not about the $5.

The US park system doesn't discrimate like that - all are charged the same usage fee.

Pam, while I admire your work on those committees to enforce the laws at the Loreto marine reserve the following scenario comes to mind. Task: to clean up our waters. How do we do it? Well, certainly not the Mexican residents because they won't stand for it. Not, the American residents because they are residents. I know, let's charge the people who don't come to our meetings and have no say in the matter - the American tourist.

So far, I have a low opinion of this bracelet concept.

wilderone - 6-29-2009 at 09:40 AM

Yeah - I understand that the Vizcaino fee collection thing is evolving, and it appears they're spending some of the money on beach cleanups. But don't they have a "big picture" plan? If they spend all the money they get on beach cleanups - village after village - how will they be able to save enough for the real problem - trash collection and disposal, and maintaining a modern dump and recycle operation - maybe even charging every household a monthly fee for trash collection and disposal (gee- what a concept); trash cans on the beach, brochures to every household and posters in the schools about the effects of trash in the ocean and on the beach. In my own neighborhood, we have canyon cleanups every month - has been going on for years.
The source of the problem is not addressed: the local citizens are the offenders; the tourist is the one who will slap a bandaid on it?
This just makes no sense.

fishbuck - 6-29-2009 at 03:35 PM

Well, maybe after you all pay $5 to have the Biosphere cleaned up then it will be worth a visit.
So, how long is it going to take Jamie to clean up all the trash in the Biosphere? A week? A month? A year? Never?
And shouldn't the Mexican government being picking up trash and making dump sites etc...?

shari - 6-29-2009 at 04:20 PM

the biosphere reserve IS the mexican government.

Juan has a good suggestion that perhaps Jaime should join this board and explain about the new system and answer some of the legitimate questions himself...juan said he will ask him if it is OK to post his email address too in case someone wants to ask him privately.

it would be helpful to send your comments and concerns directly to the Reserve office too. I understand as of today, they have a new director Biól. Mario Alberto Rodríguez Rodríguez and the Reserve email is
vizcaino@conanp.gob.mx and mrrodrig@conanp.gob.mx

fishbuck - 6-29-2009 at 04:27 PM

"the biosphere reserve IS the mexican government."

Shouldn't they be using their own money to clean up the Biophere?
But as I posted earlier a "Biosphere Reserve" is a designation granted to an area by Unesco (United Nation).
There are 533 "Biosphere Reserves" approved by the UN all over the world.

[Edited on 6-29-2009 by fishbuck]

fishbuck - 6-29-2009 at 04:36 PM

A biosphere reserve is an international conservation designation given by UNESCO under its Programme on Man and the Biosphere (MAB). The World Network of Biosphere Reserves is the collection of all 533 biosphere reserves in 107 countries (as of May, 2009).[1]

According to “The Statutory Framework of the World Network of Biosphere Reserves,” biosphere reserves are created “to promote and demonstrate a balanced relationship between humans and the biosphere.” Under article 4, biosphere reserves must “encompass a mosaic of ecological systems,” and thus consist of combinations of terrestrial, coastal, or marine ecosystems.
Through appropriate zoning and management, the conservation of these ecosystems and their biodiversity is sought to be maintained.


I didn't see anything about charging visitors for local social programs and paying locals to pick up their own trash.

Bajaboy - 6-29-2009 at 04:49 PM

Hey Bucky-

It's not about what they do with the money or the money at all. I just want to know who needs to pay and for what activities? Seems like anyone including those that live in the Biosphere should contribute. But my opinion really doesn't matter much in the grand scheme of things. Ni modo.

It would be great if Jaime came aboard Baja Nomad. I think he would be a great asset myself and he could clarify things a bit.

fishbuck - 6-29-2009 at 04:58 PM

http://www.rmrs.nau.edu/USAMAB/MAB_web_documents/statframe.h...

This explains what a "Biosphere Reserve" is suppose to be.

I'm guessing that Mexico had to submit a management plan that was approved by the UN.
Also, the designation must be reviewed for renewal every ten years. And there is a possibility of "delisting".
So, if someone is really good at research they should be able to find Mexico's Unesco approved management plan for the Vizcaino Biosphere Reserve somewhere. I'm sure it is a public document.

[Edited on 6-29-2009 by fishbuck]

fishbuck - 6-29-2009 at 05:07 PM

UNESCO Office in Mexico

National Office to Mexico in the Central America Cluster.



Director: Mrs Katherine Grigsby


Administrative Officer a.i.: Mr Grégory Perotin

Documentation Centre: http://portal.unesco.org

http://www.unescomexico.org/
E-mail address: mexico@unesco.org
Work Phone: (00) (52) (55) 36011650
Fax: (00) (52) (55) 52806214
Address
Pte Masaryk n.° 526, 3er piso, Colonia Polanco Mexico City
Mexico

[Edited on 6-30-2009 by fishbuck]

dtbushpilot - 6-29-2009 at 05:34 PM

I think it would be a great idea on the surface for Jaime to answer questions directly on the board but a real bad idea in reality. How long would it take for the "bloodletting" to begin. Jaime probably doesn't have the same command of the English language that those who would criticize him and all that he works for and he may not understand why he would be insulted for the work he is trying to do. He probably doesn't understand that in our culture it's OK to be rude and offensive to those who are just trying to do their job to the best of their abilities.

Shari, I think it would be in every one's best interest to bring Jaime up to speed about what to expect from some of our Nomad brethren before he makes himself available to be the object of ridicule in a public forum.

It really sucks for all of us that a few bad apples spoil things for the rest of us.....dt

flyfishinPam - 6-29-2009 at 05:41 PM

while I understand the frustration of some of these posts regarding the fees, from where I personally stand I must comply or they shut me down. Howrver I do see these things as an opportunity to make some much needed changes and that is what I intend to do. It will take time and I am thinking along the lines of the century bike tours I used to make way back when. In the beginning of the ride I had to take it easy and get my mind into a trance of some sort to keep me going for the 100 miles, during the middle of the tour the riders along with me, we'd would encourage each other to continue and it sure helped, then at the end we all seemed to get back into the trance and use only the amount of energy necessary to complete the tour. No weaving unnecessarily from the track no more pedaling more than will get me over that line, its a long haul. That's the same kind of thing that I have to prepare myself for and at the same time offer serious morale and encouragement. I'll do my damndest. most here are familiar with Mexico's hurdles or at least in part so bear with us because we need to get past these to make these changes it is a lot of work.

David K - 6-29-2009 at 06:02 PM

It is not the paying of a permit that is the problem... It is a problem if the money is for the pockets of bureaucrats... or whoever is collecting the fee.

fishbuck - 6-29-2009 at 06:41 PM

I think we all understand that the different vendors must comply or be shut down.
And that this thread was really sort of a celebration announcement that Jaun and Shari have all the required permits etc. to run their business.
Obviously that is a good thing.
But if you can't see the injustice of charging visitors to a United Nations designated "Biosphere Reserve" to pick up trash then you are really missing something.
As I was saying earlier. When I fish in B.A. it costs me about $500-$1000. And I believe I pay about 10% tax on everything. So that's $$50-100 tax money already. And now you want another $5 for your phony Biosphere to pick up trash?
To support Shari and and maybe Pam''s business's I will be happy to pay the $5.
But this Biosphere is totally fake and just an excuse to charge visitors another $5. You get exactly zero for your $5.
That's what all the fuss is about.

mtgoat666 - 6-29-2009 at 06:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
It is not the paying of a permit that is the problem... It is a problem if the money is for the pockets of bureaucrats... or whoever is collecting the fee.


i think the problem is that most gringos expect everything in mexico to be free or pennies on the dollar relative to US prices. they want their vacation or retirement financed by low wages, low standard of living and low/no government fees.
quit bellyaching about how other country chooses to spend its collected fees and get out there and enjoy the designated protected areas. if you don't like the daily fee, then buy a passport. i think places like SI lagoon, Viscaino and SPM are great, and i don't mind spending approx $26/year for a passport. i think it's a bargain.

Osprey - 6-29-2009 at 07:32 PM

Thought it would be a very long time before I would agree with the goat on anything much but he's right and Joe Buck is just a cheap suit in the guise of a newly informed Cabo Wabo Ron. Fish, keep telling us how much you pay and how wrong it is and how willing you are to do it anyway and then send us some international bable. Fish, stay high above it all. Real high. You don't belong down here.

fishbuck - 6-29-2009 at 08:54 PM

Sure birdbrain whatever you say.:cool:

wilderone - 6-30-2009 at 08:30 AM

Send your questions and concerns directly to:

E-mail address: mexico@unesco.org

Natalie Ann - 6-30-2009 at 11:09 AM

I, too, find myself agreeing with the Goat. $26 per year admittance to all Mexican biosphere regions. I pay way more than that each year in US National and State Park fees, as well as use fees for private areas. Never once have I put up a fuss about how those fees are used. Yep, I'm sure it's all accounted for.... and likely it includes payments for services I might disagree with.

Far as trash pick-up.... our park fees include trash pick up no matter if it's local or tourist trash. Trash seems to be a part of the human condition. Some litter, some pick up. I always carry a bag and collect trash as I walk natural areas.:saint:

nena

ElFaro - 6-30-2009 at 09:59 PM

Hey I don't agree at all with mtn goat or anyone else on this thread who compares fees charged by US Nat'l Parks and State Parks with this UN Biosphere Reserve Fee. Firstly, towns and villages don't exist in US Nat'l Parks and State Parks do they? I haven't seen any lately. And please don't compare the village in Yosemite...those are mostly park employees. Secondly, the UN should be abolished and kicked out of the US...alot of us don't recognize them as representing anything of value. Thirdly, anytime a govt. entity starts charging a fee they always start nominal and then eventually increase that fee. It may be $5 now but what will it be in 5 yrs? $10, $20 ? And these type of fees have a ratcheting effect... they only go in one direction...up and never down. This puts added pressure on local businesses who have to control costs in order to earn a profit. OK so a year pass is $26 to all Biosphere Reserves? It only pays if you are in the BRs more than 5 days per year. If I go to Ascension for a week...$20 for visa for 6 mo., $40 for fishing lic., $250/yr veh. ins., $10-25/day camping fee, $12/yr passport fee, $25 toll fees, now add $26 for BRs pass. I know I'm forgetting some fees in here. Now who gets burned in this fee scheme? the small business owner in Ascension who is at the end of the line. You see...all you retired school teachers and active school teachers on this board who don't understand how the private sector works seem to miss this whole point. These gov't fees screw the small business owner!

Natalie Ann - 7-1-2009 at 10:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Natalie Ann
I, too, find myself agreeing with the Goat. $26 per year admittance to all Mexican biosphere regions. I pay way more than that each year in US National and State Park fees, as well as use fees for private areas. Never once have I put up a fuss about how those fees are used. Yep, I'm sure it's all accounted for.... and likely it includes payments for services I might disagree with.

Far as trash pick-up.... our park fees include trash pick up no matter if it's local or tourist trash. Trash seems to be a part of the human condition. Some litter, some pick up. I always carry a bag and collect trash as I walk natural areas.:saint:

nena


Since writing this I have reread the thread, talked about it with friends, and after some thought I have to say I was wrong. The situation is not comparable to our parks or land use fees. Perhaps if everyone - locals and visitors - had to pay the fee...

As I read the posts, it seems that the fee has been in place for whale watch trips and paid trips in the Loreto Marine Sanctuary. That doesn't seem the same as what's being suggested for Asuncion.... trash pick up and some yet-to-be-defined activities helpful to the land. The program does of course aspire to more... but as many have asked, what's the plan for working that out.

I'd like to have more specific information and look forward to learning more about this project. But right now I'm inclined to agree with those who feel this is or may be an unjustified tax on the tourist. The fact that it's "only" $26 per year should not make any difference.

My humble apologies to all those offended by my prior stance.

Oh yeah.... for sure kudos to shari and Juan for gathering the needed paperwork to be taking Nomads fishing once again.

nena

DianaT - 7-1-2009 at 11:39 PM

I have stayed away from this thread because I really just cannot believe the attitudes of so many. Just a few final comments, and then I will leave this thread.

It really grew into a Mexican and Mexico bashing thread.

1. Just because it is a part of a Biosphere, the Reserve has the right to charge fees just as they do in Biospheres in the US, and in Central America.

2. It is the call of the Mexicans and THEIR government, not a bunch of tourists or alien residents.

3. Mexicans who live on the Reserve can create projects and request funding by submitting plans to the Reserve.

4. What all those projects are, is NOT our business, it is theirs. Try working with them, not against them. Places like the LA Zoo are working with the Reserve on the Pronghorn reserve.

5. Not charging locals, or charging locals a WAY lower fee is common in other parts of Mexico and in Central America---have been in Biosphere Parks in Costa Rica---locals pay a tiny fraction of the fee---same at places like Copan in Honduras.

6. Have been in states in the US where the locals are charged far less for the use of the state parks than are the tourists.

7. Yes, it is not clear when and who else will be charged in the future--- but it is up to them, the Mexican Government and the Reserve to figure that out.

8. While I am really happy Shari and Juan have all their required permits before the start of the best fishing season, and I know jumping all the hoops for all the permits, not just the Preserve permits, is expensive, time consuming, and difficult to pin down, the other fishing/tour guides in town have also needed to jump through the same hoops. It is a part of the changing Baja. And as both Shari and I wrote, the ones more apt to be hurt are the ones for have for years casually taken out people to fish---no licenses, no permits of ANY kind. That was a part of old Baja many loved.

It may sound like I am totally defending the Reserve and all of its policies, and that is not the point. It would be easier in my mind if everything was set in stone, but how often in Mexico are rules, regs, and sometimes laws set in stone? I could think a lots of ways I would like to see done differently. But.......

This thread is the PERFECT example and represents EXTREMELY well the attitude that somehow Baja is and should remain the big play ground for gringos to use as they see fit with no interference. If something is not defined in gringo terms, and does not suit what they think is proper, then it is wrong.

Bottom line, is it is Mexican and Mexico bashing---plain and simple. We can all lament the passing of the Old Baja, but then it becomes a choice---visit and play by their changes and rules, or stay north of the border.

Diane

BTW---I don't like a lot of the changes either.


[Edited on 7-2-2009 by jdtrotter]

rpleger - 7-2-2009 at 12:10 AM

jdtrotter.....I agree 100% with your well thought out statement...Bravo

Geo_Skip - 7-2-2009 at 12:52 AM

Muchas Gracias Shari, jdtrotter and Osprey. Of course we would all like more information about when and where we can expect to be charged minimal fees. I believe that MOST of the Nomads would prefer to act as GUESTS in another Nation with DIFFERENT customs and policies. b-tching about the policies that we do not understand (perhaps they are being defined as we read this) is pointless and an irritating waste of oxygen. Rest assured that the policy will become defined, perhaps with errors and inconsistency, perhaps in an easily comprehensible and fair manner.... Time will tell. Grow some patience. Practice some tolerance. That is the path I prefer to a better life (lower blood pressure and more time to enjoy the day and a cold one, next to a warm one).


Acting as a rude guest is a losing as well as offensive approach and the first loser is the rude person.

Good fishing/surfing/ playing all.

fishbuck - 7-2-2009 at 02:29 AM

The way you use the word "Guest" it's almost an insult.
A guest should be made to feel honored, welcomed and appreciated. And respected.
If we are your guests, why are you charging us $5 to be there?
And if we are paid guest, like at a hotel, then we expect some service for our money. What service are you providing us for our $5?
When people pay money they expect to receive a benefit.
I think you will find that this is the standard custom throughout the world.
If anyone is being rude it's you.

[Edited on 7-2-2009 by fishbuck]

fishbuck - 7-2-2009 at 03:44 AM

Attention in the Biosphere!

If you are not a resident of the Biosphere then you are trespassing! The fine for trespassing in the Biosphere is $5.
If you chose to enter the Biosphere you must pay the $5 fine in advance and identify yourself at all times as a trespasser ( also known as a "Guest") in the Biosphere by wearing a band on your wrist.
Should you fail to wear your band, you will be fined $5.
The fine for not paying the $5 fine is $5.
All fines must be paid to Jamie. Jamie can be found sitting at his desk in town.
Jamie can also be found on the beach collecting $5 fines from non band wearing guests(aka "Trespassers").
Guests are not permitted to ask questions about the Biosphere. Anyone doing so will be fined $5 and deported out of the Biosphere for being "rude".
The fine for being rude (aka "asking questions about the Biosphere") is $5.



[Edited on 7-2-2009 by fishbuck]

mtgoat666 - 7-2-2009 at 11:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
Attention in the Biosphere!

If you are not a resident of the Biosphere then you are trespassing! The fine for trespassing in the Biosphere is $5.
If you chose to enter the Biosphere you must pay the $5 fine in advance and identify yourself at all times as a trespasser ( also known as a "Guest") in the Biosphere by wearing a band on your wrist.
Should you fail to wear your band, you will be fined $5.
The fine for not paying the $5 fine is $5.
All fines must be paid to Jamie. Jamie can be found sitting at his desk in town when he is not moonlighting at his other job on Biosphere time.
Jamie can also be found on the beach collecting $5 fines from non band wearing guests(aka "Trespassers").
Guests are not permitted to ask questions about the Biosphere. Anyone doing so will be fined $5 and deported out of the Biosphere for being "rude".
The fine for being rude (aka "asking questions about the Biosphere") is $5.

[Edited on 7-2-2009 by fishbuck]


hey fishy,
your commments are idiotic and insulting to the people and organizations that have worked for past 20+ years to establish and then protect the parks and biosphere reserves. You are ignorant of how much effort has been expended in eestablishing and protecting places like SPM, Viscaino, San Ig Lagoon, SOC, etc; and you are ignorant about development plans that still threaten the areas. If you think it's just grosssly unfair to you, then take your vacation elsewhere.

You should be paying the entry fee, and contributing to the mex and foreign NGOs that continue to protect the area for benefit of all, even you. The fees that are collected today are probably a pittance compared to the sums spent to establish the areas in the first place. Are you even aware of organizations that are funded by private donors and spending money to protect areas for all? The fees are quite minor for a middle class gringo like you. If you can afford to fly or drive to your vacation 600 miles south of the border, you can afford the fee, and you can afford to tip well when you get labor services for very few dollars per hour.

fishbuck - 7-2-2009 at 12:35 PM

Thank you goat for pointing out my ignorance about all the good things that are suppose to be happening in the Biosphere.
I looked on the internet and couldn't find one thing about it.
All I know so far is that Jamie takes the $5 and pays local people to clean up trash on the town beach.
And I now know that you think since I can afford it, I should pay for that. Even though I've never dropped one piece of trash in the Biosphere.
I do remember when Mexico threatened to develope San Ignacio lagoon into another giant salt mine like the one in Guerero Negro.
It was something like this.
"We need money, and if you don't give us money, we will develope the lagoon. And your precious whales will die. And we don't care because we are poor."
I think that's where this whole Bioscam came from.
So goat please tell us about all the wonderful things that are happening in the Bioscam to keep it pristine and beautiful.

[Edited on 7-2-2009 by fishbuck]

shari - 7-2-2009 at 12:38 PM

Looks like the bracelets are well controlled...all written down etc...and jaime said the money goes into the bank not to him....they are all numbered.

Natalie Ann - 7-2-2009 at 12:47 PM

shari - Did Jaime mention what happens with the money after it goes to the bank? I'd imagine some pays his salary and some for his office... any ideas about the rest?

I'd like to be clear about the fact that nothing I have read leads me to believe that Jaime is anything but an honest employee trying to do his job. Exactly what is his job still seems to be unknown.

nena

shari - 7-2-2009 at 07:43 PM

No, I didnt ask...i am not certain where the money goes....possibly into the conanp account but i have no idea if it is used for jaime's salary, office or clean up programs...no idea...dianne seems to have more info on this. I didnt know individuals could apply to the reserve for projects either....i really would like to have a meeting with the new reserve director...he just took office this week.

Diver - 7-2-2009 at 08:30 PM

A quick Google for biosphere reserve came up with this link.
The Vizcaino Reserve is mentioned about 1/2 way down.
Sounds like a dandy program to me !
I might even send them MORE than $26 for the year !! :biggrin:

July 16th, 2008
Pride Success: Eight Stories from the Field


Recently, eight of Rare’s partners graduated from the Pride program, with ceremonies taking place in Mexico City in June. The following are highlights from each campaign — the successes, challenges, and plans for long-term sustainability.

Led by campaign manager Martin Castillo Paniagua, Mexico’s National Park Service (CONANP) and the staff of Parque Nacional Lagunas de Montebello diligently spread their campaign slogan, “Clean and Beautiful, the Color of Montebello,” throughout one of Mexico’s most important protected areas. The goal was to foster Pride and behavior change in a region threatened by pollution and harmful agro-chemicals.

Located in Chiapas in a rural part of southern Mexico, Montebello is an area filled with world-class wetlands, orchids, butterflies, and endemic birds that are popular with tourists and locals alike. But like many of Mexico’s protected areas, unsustainable agricultural techniques, burning of land leading to forest fires, and dumping of waste into waterways is a challenge to overcome. As Pride campaign manager, Martin traveled to the twenty-three communities around the park, promoting its value and bringing awareness to threats. He offered solutions, such as recycling and better land use strategies.

Multiple communities immediately embraced Martin and his message of conservation. Still, he was nervous about some towns that were known to be more conservative. “I was a little anxious about going to these areas, and I wasn’t sure how effective the campaign would be there,” said Martin. A breakthrough moment came when he brought his mascot, the threatened Pale-billed Woodpecker, to these particular communities. “The faces of the kids just lit up; they had never seen something like that before. These communities welcomed the campaign, and Pride made an impact there.”

Before the campaign, only 35 percent of the target community even knew that Montebello was a protected area, while afterwards that percentage grew to 98 percent. Pre-campaign, only 30 percent of community members knew about the threat to their own natural resources from pollution, while post-campaign surveys revealed that 80 percent now understood the risk of this behavior. This rise in awareness resulted in creation of a community-run recycling collection center.
Park staff now wear aprons with the campaign slogan and an image of the Woodpecker. Martin is committed to staying at his site and hopes to begin focusing on organic agriculture; strengthening and promoting the recycling collection center; and educating others about Montebello and why they should protect it.

Yazmin Yesenia Benitez Partida of CONANP used Pride to target 17 communities in El Vizcaino Biosphere Reserve in Baja California, which, at 2.5 million hectares, is the largest protected area in Mexico. This site is also a breeding ground for the Gray Whale, one of the most popular and recognizable creatures in the region and therefore Yazmin’s choice for her campaign’s flagship species. One of the biggest threats to the area is the overuse of scarce freshwater reserves. Using the Grey Whale as a messenger to address water scarcity had its challenges, but Yazmin and her team developed a slogan that elegantly tied community members’ affinity with the species to their own health and well-being: “Yo, al igual que tu, necesito el agua para vivir” (I, Like You, Need Water to Live). The Ballena Gris (Grey Whale) mascot visited school and community fairs to educate children – the next generation of fishers and farmers – about protecting its habitat and using freshwater carefully.

The campaign message could also be seen on large murals painted along city streets, stickers on the windows of restaurants, and t-shirts on the backs of children and adults. Yazmin showed the community how to wash dishes and cars with less water and the importance of attending to a dripping faucet. Through activities like these, she inspired over 500 students to send letters to her mascot, and she responded to nearly all. Children in particular have become an active voice for conservation in El Vizcaino.

At the end of Yazmin’s campaign, the number of school children who knew about water issues and promoted sustainable water practices in the reserve rose from 9 percent to an astounding 49 percent. Awareness in the community of Yazmin’s site as a national protected area rose from 48 percent before the campaign to 80 percent after. Often, making local communities who live in and around reserves even aware of the protected status of their natural resources (and the value of that protection to their own health and well being) is a critical first step.

Yazmin and CONANP made tremendous strides in this area during the campaign. Once a volunteer at CONANP, Yazmin’s position has been made permanent, and she will continue her successful work in outreach and conservation. “Our mission in CONANP is to conserve,” Yazmin said. “Through Pride we can inform local communities about the current situation and promote behavior change.”

Yazmin was recently invited to an international cultural exchange on water management in Japan to share insight on her campaign and conservation in Mexico.

Paty Delgado with CONANP ran a Pride campaign in Cuatro Ciénegas, an area in northern Mexico with a unique system of 450 vernal pools full of unique biodiversity found nowhere else in the world. Paty’s campaign tackled unmanaged usage of water for agriculture that threatens the water supply of the vernal pool ecosystem, as well as a particularly unique species — the Coahuilan box turtle — which lives in the region’s vernal pools and which served as the campaign’s flagship species.

Through the campaign, Paty motivated farmers to adopt more efficient irrigation systems so that less water is pulled from the aquifer, preserving Cuatro Cienegas’ vernal pools. From her outreach efforts, dozens of land owners were inspired to install new irrigations systems on over 50 hectares of farmland that now serve as demonstration sites for other farmers to visit as they consider making a change in their water use.

Paty held summer camps and drawing contests to get her message out, all with the help of dedicated volunteers. At the start of her campaign, Paty had 15 salaried interns who helped her implement planning and outreach. But when funding was cut in her department, she was no longer able to pay these assiduous workers. “I told them, I’m sorry I have no more funding for you,” said Paty “But these workers had become so involved, they wanted to continue, complete the ideas they had helped create even without money. All of them stuck with me.”

Working with CONANP, local farmers, and the water commission, Paty helped implement a more sustainable irrigation system. Previously, local farmers used aquifers that wasted a large amount of water that spilled out into irrigation channels and evaporated. Paty’s campaign helped get a grant from the Mexican government’s water commission to put a new irrigation system into practice, which preserves more water for both the community and the world-renowned vernal pools. Paty worked on this project with a dedicated group of farmers who then trained others to adopt new irrigation practices as well. “The methodology of Pride works,” said Paty. “Pride provided me with very useful tools to do the job.”

Alejandra Paredes, a communications and education specialist at the local Ecuadorian NGO EcoCiencia, focused her Pride campaign on the small community of El Chaco in the nation’s Quijos Valley. EcoCiencia and Rare also partnered with The Nature Conservancy, which has a long history in this region. Already equipped with plenty of communications and public relations experience, Alejandra added the new tools she gained from the Pride program to mobilize the community in this tropical Andean hotspot toward more sustainable practices. She was able to run a government sponsored public service announcement and get the word out about area threats, including over-grazing, water shortages, pollution, and petroleum spills.

Focusing on water issues, Alejandra introduced the community to Filipe, a Mountain Tapir and her campaign’s mascot and flagship species. Filipe asked the community to preserve water and keep it clean for himself and other animals, which like people need clean water to live. The campaign helped unite local mayors and conservation supporters around a new watershed management plan that is now being implemented at the municipal level. Pride has become a signature program for EcoCiencia, and the organization was recently invited to present its model during a national summit to draft Ecuador’s new constitution. EcoCiencia used Pride to advocate for the role of conservation in the new legislative mandate.

Many of Alejandra’s volunteers who helped facilitate puppet shows, reading groups and radio spots are now interested in pursuing environmental education at the university level because of the campaign. The community has so heavily embraced the campaign that the municipality is creating a new local government position to sustain impact. Alejandra will work with this employee to continue contacting farmers about over-grazing issues and educating the community about water conservation. Alejandra and EcoCiencia have recently been awarded a 10 thousand dollar follow-up grant from Rare to continue their effective outreach.

Elizabeth Cabrera and her organization Guyra Paraguay “want to stay in San Rafael.” So much so, that “I want to stay in San Rafael” was their campaign slogan and a message the entire community near San Rafael National Park, Paraguay rallied around by embracing conservation of their unique natural heritage. San Rafael is home to 60,000 hectares of Atlantic Forest habitat, one of the most biologically diverse and threatened ecosystems in the world. Threats include deforestation, forest fires, and pollution from agro-chemical farming.

Elizabeth’s initial research showed a third of the population didn’t know that San Rafael was a protected area, but that many were aware of deforestation in the area and were willing to volunteer. She pulled together community members to help mobilize a Pride campaign. “The local volunteers from my community were empowered and really helped this campaign get off the ground”, she said. “Everyone worked together; it was a true collective effort.”

Elizabeth spread her message about a clean and healthy forest anywhere she could place a sticker. She held “mini conservation courses” and took groups to visit the reserve. Because of Elizabeth’s campaign more than 135 children and teenagers visited and learned about protecting the forests of San Rafael, as well as planted 135 native trees around their schools and homes.

Elizabeth helped farmers adopt more sustainable practices, including production of organic watermelons as an alternative to destructive soya crops., After Elizabeth’s campaign, the practice of organic agriculture grew by 20 percent (with hundreds of local farmers altering behavior), and organic watermelons are becoming a staple in the area.

Throughout the campaign, community members could be heard singing the campaign song, which was set to a polka tune, a popular genre of music in Paraguay. Victoria Aquino, mayor of the neighboring community Alto Vera, became highly involved in the campaign. she introduced Jaku, Elizabeth’s mascot representing the Black-fronted Piping Guan bird, to the community, focusing on adolescents, farmers, teachers and indigenous populations like the Mbya guarani. “I want to see a municipality where our people are proud to work their land and be responsible of taking care of our environment,” said the mayor, who has worn the costume on occasion. The mayor is now working to increase the territory of San Rafael so that a natural protected area can be decreed in her municipality.

Elizabeth will now take her Pride toolkit to another community to coordinate a second social marketing campaign, sponsored by Guaya Paraguay. But she knows her message and work will stay in San Rafael. “I believe we were able to install a permanent capacity,” Elizabeth said. “The volunteers will continue there in the future.” Guaya Paraguay has secured a quick 20-minute meeting with the President of Paraguay to promote their work, and they have chosen to highlight the Pride campaign as a model for success.

Elizabeth has recently been nominated for the Overbrook Conservation Fellowship for Latin American Conservationists, a grant which supports sustainable conservation projects. The award is administered by Columbia University’s Center for Environmental Research and Conservation (CERC).

Jesus Maria Miranda Alvarez was a little skeptical about Pride at first. Working with CONANP, Jesus focused on the Ajos-Bavispe in Sonora Mexico, a somewhat rural and conservative community that relied on mining for income – regardless of its negative impact on conservation. The area itself is a habitat for over 200 species of birds and 150 species of butterflies, as well as providing a home to the black bear and endangered Mexican Spotted Owl. The land is cleared for pit-mines and, as a result, water, soil and air become contaminated. Jesus decided to try a Pride campaign as a way to promote the value of area watersheds and encourage local residents to use water more effectively.

The people of this area tend to be more reserved or serious, and Jesus wasn’t sure if the colorful social marketing campaign would have any effect. Jesus was persistent and invited farmers to workshops five separate times before they accepted. When they eventually came, Jesus was pleasantly surprised about how the community received his message. “When the residents saw the mascots they really ‘lit up’ and listened to what we had to say,” said Jesus. One boy became so intrigued by Jesus’s campaign that he didn’t want to take off his campaign t-shirt to wash it, because he wanted to conserve water.

When Jesus’s campaign was completed, the number of community members who were aware that they lived in a protected area increased 30 percentage points. There was also a dramatic rise in the percentage of community members who reported altering their daily actions to preserve water quality. His coworkers in Sonora are now executing more activities, and his campaign is continuing in this area. “Now I feel capable to run a campaign in another protected area,” said Jesus. “I have acquired so much knowledge that I feel I now have the tools to do Pride anywhere.”

Zayareth Belendez Hernandez, also working with CONANP, has become very well known through her Pride campaign in Tehuacan-Cuicatlan Biosphere Reserve, 150 kilometers Southeast of Mexico City. The reserve is full of endemic plants, pumas, lynxes, and 350 bird species. Illegal extraction of cacti, overgrazing, and water pollution threaten this desert ecosystem. In an effort to protect the plants and animals, “Zaya” aimed to educate the community about water conservation. Zaya was a little nervous about working with children at first, but brought them to the reserve on overnight visits, showing them its value and introducing them to her campaign mascot – the Mexican ponytail palm. This palm tree holds a lot of cultural value to the area and lives over 100 years. Now, children and adults alike recognize Zaya as the woman on the radio, with board games, t-shirts, photo contests, bracelets, booklets and coloring books promoting ways they can conserve water.

To ensure her message is lasting, Zaya made a formal agreement with the state’s education department to work environmental education, specifically the campaign’s focus on water and forest issues, into the curriculum through 2011. At first, the new curriculum will be implemented in 80 schools, but there are plans to work it into 1,000 schools in the area. “I feel so respected by the education department in my area,” said Zaya. “I feel recognized by professors, and it’s so rewarding. We work in such a critical field and I feel that the Pride campaign belongs. Through Pride you become an engineer, teacher, biologist, etc. as you work with the whole community in a collaborative way.”

Zaya has recently been nominated for the Overbrook Conservation Fellowship for Latin American Conservationists, a grant which supports sustainable conservation projects. The award is administered by Columbia University’s Center for Environmental Research and Conservation (CERC).

Paulina Saucedo Mora and CONANP launched aPride campaign in Cozumel National Park, Mexico, promoting safe practices for divers to protect the coral reef system from pollution and misuse. Cozumel’s reefs are some of the most famous and beautiful in the world. Paulina also worked with the Coral Reef Alliance to target local scuba diving outfitters, asking them to ensure that divers respect the reefs and that boating operators comply with current protective laws to avoid further damage.

Organizing town hall meetings, beach clean-ups, and school events, Paulina became more driven as she saw the way community members reacted toward her campaign and wanted to get involved. Through the Coral Reef Alliance, Paulina helped produce and distribute a national public service announcement about protecting the reefs. Her mascot, Strombus, delivered conservation messages to more than 9000 kids — 10 percent of the total island population!

Paulina, who inhabited the costume herself multiple times, told children a story about her mascot and how he deserved a clean and safe home, just like them.
Pride campaign messages were also featured in a national public service announcement on coral reef protection, produced with the Coral Reef Alliance.

Currently, 50 percent of the island of Cozumel is under protected status. A growing constituency of local youth inspired by the campaign is now working to secure 100 percent protection for their ecologically rich, but heavily threatened home.

“Every protected area needs a Pride campaign,” said Paulina “There are many challenges, but we have great results.” Paulina’s mother attended the graduation and spoke about her daughter’s hard work. “I witnessed how Paulina reached out into the community to speak on behalf of conservation. This program has influenced her so heavily, and I am incredibly proud of her."

http://rareconservation.org/news/article.php?id=39

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[Edited on 7-3-2009 by Diver]

fishbuck - 7-2-2009 at 09:22 PM

I didn't know that Grey Whales drank fresh water!
How do they do that exactly?
So they conserved fresh water and that helped grey whales?
I think we may have found the flaw in the Biosphere Reserve. The science seems a little off.;D

BAJACAT - 7-2-2009 at 09:32 PM

mY FISH friend if you keep doing this , they will make ceviche out of you :lol::lol:

[Edited on 7-3-2009 by BAJACAT]

BAJACAT - 7-2-2009 at 09:34 PM

Im sorry i didn't wanted to hijack the thread,,,

SKIDS - 7-3-2009 at 07:11 AM

Good God it's only $5.00 P-nche dollares !!! You spend $ 5.00 in gas looking for parking in any of Ca. beaches.

woody with a view - 7-3-2009 at 07:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SKIDS
Good God it's only $5.00 P-nche dollares !!! You spend $ 5.00 in gas looking for parking in any of Ca. beaches.


i ride a bicycle!:P

gnukid - 7-3-2009 at 08:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SKIDS
Good God it's only $5.00 P-nche dollares !!! You spend $ 5.00 in gas looking for parking in any of Ca. beaches.


$5/per day person

mtgoat666 - 7-3-2009 at 10:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fishbuck
So goat please tell us about all the wonderful things that are happening in the Bioscam to keep it pristine and beautiful.


fishbrain:
like any conservation effort, the process is never perfect, but conservation only happens if people care and contribute and work for it. there are lots of well-intentioned people working on conservation in baja, and your juvenile criticism of conservation efforts is based on ignorance.

there are lots of projects in vizcaino, and I only know of a few:
(1) establishment of conservation easements in SI lagoon, and ejido luis echeverría's use of conservation easement funds to promote restoration and sustainable development
(2) protection of pronghorn antelope
(3) protection of big horn sheep
(4) protection of sierra de san fransisco cave paintings
(5) development of low-impact eco-tourism businesses in SI lagoon and sierra de san fransisco
(6) numerous academic research projects of ecology
(7) numerous domestic and foreign NGOs seeking funds for conservation and preservation projects, resulting in several million dollars spent to date.
(8) several fishing cooperatives have developed sustainable approaches to commercial fishing, and fought off fisheries poaching

fishbrain, don't be so selfish, and get out there and learn about what is going on and contribute!


[Edited on 7-3-2009 by mtgoat666]

KurtG - 7-3-2009 at 12:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666

like any conservation effort, the process is never perfect, but conservation only happens if people care and contribute and work for it. there are lots of well-intentioned people working on conservation in baja, and your juvenile criticism of conservation efforts is based on ignorance.

there are lots of projects in vizcaino, and I only know of a few:
(1) establishment of conservation easements in SI lagoon, and ejido luis echeverría's use of conservation easement funds to promote restoration and sustainable development
(2) protection of pronghorn antelope
(3) protection of big horn sheep
(4) protection of sierra de san fransisco cave paintings
(5) development of low-impact eco-tourism businesses in SI lagoon and sierra de san fransisco
(6) numerous academic research projects of ecology
(7) numerous domestic and foreign NGOs seeking funds for conservation and preservation projects, resulting in several million dollars spent to date.
(8) several fishing cooperatives have developed sustainable approaches to commercial fishing, and fought off fisheries poaching

fishbrain, don't be so selfish, and get out there and learn about what is going on and contribute!


[Edited on 7-3-2009 by mtgoat666]


I think I've seeen some real shifts in attitudes among locals about conservation and the environment over the years and I think much of it is a generational thing. In the 70's trash wasn't much of an issue because the plastic grocery bag hadn't been introduced yet and locals just didn't produce that much trash. Beer cans along the new highway were the biggest issue. For a view on the shift in perspective in the Viscaino see Bruce Berger's great book "Almost An Island" which describes attitudes toward the Pronghorns back then. I've seen the same shifts in attitude in Mulege over those 35 years as the new generations are exposed to new environmental ideas. Still a ways to go but the changes have been for the better. I compare this to rural northern Minnsota where I grew up. In the 50's there all the back woods families had their own little garbage dumps and by 1960 or so that was no more. I think the "Pride" programs described in Diver's post are great and really work. Last fall I saw a large group of young people picking up trash and plastic bags in the desert south of GN, gave a big wave and a thumbs up as I rode by and got smiles and big waves in return. I think a little positive reinforcement goes a long way and is more productive than the negative attitudes reflected in some posts on this forum. I'm happy to contribute a few bucks toward these efforts even if there may be some flaws, as a tourist enjoying Mexican hospitality I don't feel it is for me to point them out.

Timo1 - 7-3-2009 at 01:10 PM

I couldn't care less if its $26/year or $86/year
And I don't give a rat's ass if Jaime pockets it {he never would}
If it helps in any small way to make the WHOLE area better
I'm in...no questions asked
I love this area and spend a lot to be there and do the things I
love to do there
$26 bucks???...Get real !!!!

grmpb - 7-4-2009 at 01:54 PM

gimhelltimo

redmesa - 7-4-2009 at 05:28 PM

Right On Timo!

Diver - 7-4-2009 at 05:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Timo1
I couldn't care less if its $26/year or $86/year
And I don't give a rat's burro if Jaime pockets it {he never would}
If it helps in any small way to make the WHOLE area better
I'm in...no questions asked
I love this area and spend a lot to be there and do the things I
love to do there
$26 bucks???...Get real !!!!



Thanks Tim, I couldn't have said it better !! :yes:

other areas in Baja -- like Bahia Concepcion?

elfbrewery - 1-11-2010 at 05:26 PM

I haven't been able to locate the commercial fishing regulations for Bahia Concepcion, but I know there is shrimping and pin scallop harvesting going on as well as a lot of gillnetting. Would it be possible to get more environmental protection for this area as well? I wouldn't mind a reasonable charge, as long as it didn't just go in someone's pocket and the pangeros just keep on keeping on.
What's the scoop?

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