BajaNomad - Turtle egg harvesting. Wrong!

Turtle egg harvesting. Wrong!

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Skipjack Joe - 11-9-2010 at 12:00 AM

Don't cloud the issues with facts here. They have been provided by many over and over.

The conclusions have been stated above: facts are provided by organizations that are trying to 'control' us. Giving us the freedom to dismiss any information we don't like. Better to drop a line off Monserat and come to your own conclusions.

It's all just a big conspiracy to confuse us. Reasons? Who needs reasons? There are 'dark' forces at work.

Cypress - 11-9-2010 at 05:51 AM

BajaRat and flyfishingPam, Thanks for injecting some current information into this topic. We're all aware of what the Sea of Cortez once was. Those days are gone and they'll never return. If something isn't done ,and done now, it's gonna only get worse. Lot's of the tourist go there to fish, I did. I won't be going back to fish.

flyfishinPam - 11-9-2010 at 06:40 AM

The fact that damage has been done and continues, you won't get an argument out of me. My message is that its only the local people who have the capacity to control this. Also I see a recurring message that I touched on before, that it is YOU the consumer who has the ultimate power to overcome this cycle. The USA is the largest consumer of Mexican seafood, so if YOU continue to buy it then WE will have to catch it. This kind of economics has been repeated over and again, natural resources of third world countries are just taken away transferred over to richer nations and those who are the true owners of them don't reap the benefits but they sure do suffer never ending restrictions to their freedom. It is not the people's fault its history repeating itself yet again, our inherent human faults will be our demise eventually and there's no way to stop it. Be sad because it is difficult to consider but this is still no reason to limit your fellow man's freedoms in another country. So save your money folks and save the donations for your local food provider and local goods supplier it will go much further for all and it will ultimately do the most good.

Shrimp is NUMBER ONE the top consumer seafood product in the USA.
USA clear cut its eastern forest but nobody else can. USA industrial farming caused the Colorado river to run dry so that the estuary gives no more fresh water to the SOC but we gotta go against mega farming in Sinaloa. USA wiped out many of their fisheries so we gotta save the SOC and prevent Mexico from doing what we did. USA had the chance to develop its industries but was stupid enough to sell them off and move them to foreign countries but Mexico now is industrializing and the ambientalistas are being manipulated by big foreign money to limit it. Hypocrisy.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-9-2010 at 07:32 AM

Rat, While you were Commercial Fishing I was for 38 years fishing the Sea of Cortez, learning and watching its Cycles.

The Sacreamento Bee Story was the Biggeest bunch of False and bull chit Information ever spread about the Sea of Cortez.
I personally observed the Japaneses Commercial Boats{2 of them} being escoreted out of the Sea. I personally watched the Shrimp baots take out lots of Shrimp from Loreto Bay{It was stopped 15 years ago} Try Shrimping and check it out.
I personally watched the Sierra being taken , very few left but_____________ they are back!!!
Two years ago there was a big surge in the numbers of fish coming in,as well as the large invcrease in Sharks down South. Commercial boat came bace and took our some Fish but it was back to 1,000 of YellowTail on top of the Water, with Sierra and Sardines eeverwhere.

You Loud Mouths do not have the experience on the Sea of Cortez. Cypress have you fished a couple of times???

You have fallen for all of this Endangered Species Bull chit and do not have the Balls to go out and find out on your Own!!

Comon, Do something don"t just Flap you Lips with other peoples Bull chit.!!!!

Cypress - 11-9-2010 at 10:45 AM

Skeet/Loreto, You're starting to sound somewhat demented. Maybe you should see about getting evaluated.

BajaRat - 11-9-2010 at 11:31 AM

All right, you got me, you win. I conceed, the world is flat, the earth is the center of the universe and theres a red, horned character living at the center of the earth. Thanks for setting all that straight.

baitcast - 11-9-2010 at 01:12 PM

Cypress Skeet has forgotten more than you will ever ever learn about the SOC :rolleyes:

Rob

[Edited on 11-9-2010 by baitcast]

Skeet/Loreto - 11-9-2010 at 02:19 PM

O.K. Gentlemen and Scholars:

I will let you contuine to be "Unlearned".

From Las Animas to the South of Loreto to San marcos to the North I fished all over, studied the Water, the Winds, The movement of Fish. I dove and Snorkeled and wtched the very Prime Example of the "Survival of the Fitest"

I lived ,as the only Americano at San Nicholas for 4 years, fishing with the Murillo Family, especially Pappa Murillo who was 80 yeras old.

What I am saying is THESEAOFCORTEZ IS NOT RUINED

It will never be!!

I urge anybody, Go to the Sea of Cortez, Fish, watch and Learn, take your Children teach them the TRUTH, Teach them to question the Liars Statements.

Ask the as I ask you:

Where is your Evidence?? I have presented Mine.
Are you scared to find the Truth??

mulegemichael - 11-9-2010 at 02:28 PM

sorry to say this skeet, but the soc HAS changed drastically over the years since you used to hang out here...the purse seiners have and will continue to take hundred and thousands of tons of sardines and bycatch every year...the shrimp boats that anchor at the mouth of our river in mulege will continue to scour the bottom leaving nothing untouched...the longliners and netters will continue to take everything that happens their way...the soc has been so negatively impacted that in our lifetime it WILL NOT be the way it was back in "your day"...you need a reality check, amigo cause you're waaaaaay off base...just sayin'

toneart - 11-9-2010 at 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mulegemichael
sorry to say this skeet, but the soc HAS changed drastically over the years since you used to hang out here...the purse seiners have and will continue to take hundred and thousands of tons of sardines and bycatch every year...the shrimp boats that anchor at the mouth of our river in mulege will continue to scour the bottom leaving nothing untouched...the longliners and netters will continue to take everything that happens their way...the soc has been so negatively impacted that in our lifetime it WILL NOT be the way it was back in "your day"...you need a reality check, amigo cause you're waaaaaay off base...just sayin'

I too am a part time resident of Mulege. I have seen first hand, what Michael is saying. Many photos have appeared here that confirms it. I have also experienced the diminished fish population.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-9-2010 at 03:07 PM

Marv and Toneart:

I am not saying that the Sea has not been overfished. And yes there will be changes just as it was 2 years ago when the fishing out of Mulege was like it was 20 years ago Fish everywhere.

Another thing thtis overlooked is that there are not near the number of Fisherman therefore not near the number of Fish being caught and Reported.

30 years ago I did not expect the Sierra to come back, but they are!
Yhe yellowtail and Dorado will go and come depending on their Cycle.

Did you see where the Squid are about to take over San diego?? Squid Cycle.

How about Pompano and Earhardt. How come they seem to catch fish most of the time??
How about me. Everytime I go to my hole 5 miles from Loreto I catch 3 25 to 27 Lb Yellowtail nearly anytime of the Year. There is another spot off of the LightHouse at Coronado that I can do the same thing.

I think we may have another cycle of Giant Squid, may take another three years.

It is not Ruined!! Still the best place in the World for me.

Cypress - 11-9-2010 at 04:44 PM

baitcast, Now that's something I'll agree on. :yes:

elgatoloco - 11-9-2010 at 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Don't cloud the issues with facts here. They have been provided by many over and over.

The conclusions have been stated above: facts are provided by organizations that are trying to 'control' us. Giving us the freedom to dismiss any information we don't like. Better to drop a line off Monserat and come to your own conclusions.

It's all just a big conspiracy to confuse us. Reasons? Who needs reasons? There are 'dark' forces at work.

Finally you have seen the 'light'! :smug:

Skeet/Loreto - 11-9-2010 at 05:13 PM

Question for Cypress and the Rat.

Tell me what happens to many species of fish during the Year at the Sea of Cortez?

Tell me how many different ones leave and sometimes come back two years later?

What is the Cycle of the Squid which comes in April at 10 Lbs and grows to 80 Lbs by Sept.??

Why did the Massive yellowtail schools come into Mulege 2 years ago but stayed away from the Loreto Bay Area??

Why can Earhart go out of Loreto and in one Day Trip catch several specie of Fish// Yellowtail, Marlin, Yellowfin, Wahoo??

You have to realize that many fish go out of the Sea to other locations and, If they are not caught , they return to the Sea of Cortez..

Gentlemen; Go to the Sea of Cortez and study and learn as I did. You will be amazed at the things you can Learn!!

Cypress - 11-9-2010 at 05:31 PM

Skeet/Loreto, You tell me. I don't have a clue.

bajafam - 11-10-2010 at 09:04 AM

Yes, Skeet...please enlighten us, as we are obviously all idiots and you are the resident genius on this particular topic.

But, I am curious, and perhaps you know the answer as you are the SOC expert. What about the Vaquita? and, please, don't tell me it is an "unecessary creature that serves no purpose." Its only home is in the SOC, and it is dying there.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-10-2010 at 09:53 AM

Every Fish and Thing that I staarted seeing and watching in the Sea of Cortez is still there.

I have never seen an Endangered Specie as there are None!!!
Yellowtail, Yellowfin,Cabrilla,Triggerfish, Sierra, Sardines, Squid{An I have watched as 40 Tons a nite were taken out from in front of Loreto} Amberjack{Now coming in Schools} Sharks, and those pretty little Purple Fish that nibble on your Legs, Sharks, Whales and yes a Thesher or two,..
I observations where :What is there and how does it Survive??

Not some preset Notion about some thing like the Snail Darter.

How about an Asltwater Catfish{I have caught two} How about Lingcod{I know where I can catch them in April} only one place in my knowledge.

No Gentlemen the False Sacto news story and your Predjices learnings are beyond Help.

You Prove to everybody on this Board your False Claims. I know the Truth. You are making the claims

PROVE IT!!!

bajafam - 11-10-2010 at 03:41 PM

You are honestly telling me that this creature is NOT endangered?
This sign says otherwise:

And, so does this one

But I suppose the best way to pretend that something isn't wrong is to keep telling yourself that everything is just dandy. I'm sorry, but the steady decline of the Vaquita, dropping to a staggering less than 250, some believe there are only 150 of them left. They are not migrating anywhere, and then coming back. They ONLY live in the SOC and they are dying.

I guess we should all live by Skeet's golden rule...."Let's just ignore the environment and it will just go away."

[Edited on 11-10-2010 by bajafam]

[Edited on 11-10-2010 by bajafam]

[Edited on 11-10-2010 by bajafam]

Skeet/Loreto - 11-10-2010 at 04:05 PM

A very good example of the "Survival of the Fitest""!

Also whcioh comes into play is the daming of the Colorado River many years ago.

What difference will it Make????

bajafam - 11-10-2010 at 04:15 PM

Umm....no. The Vaquita's only predator is the human shrimp nets.

I suppose that just because "we" (and I use that term rather loosely, as I would absolutely despise if anyone EVER chunked me in the same group as you, Skeet) are bigger, stronger with more technology and more greed that we can just destroy creatures left and right, with the self-centered idea that it makes no difference???

And the damming of the Colorado has had many ill effects....one of which would be on the farmlands of Baja, since there is no longer running water in the rivers, the farmers are forced to use the ground water, and unless you are a complete idiot, you would see that the aquafer is drying up and soon there wil be no more water in certain areas, such as San Quintin. Now tell me Skeet, how long do you think that all of those people will be able to survive with no water???

What difference does it make??? You are an arse. But just stick you head back in the sand....or in your case, your butt, and pretend that nothing matters. It's attitudes like yours that make me want to save my pennies so that I can put you on the first rocket to the future settlement on Mars. If you have no desire to help protect this planet and all of the living things that live on it, please get off. Go screw up some other planet and let my kids, my grandkids, and every other future generation have this one.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-10-2010 at 04:42 PM

Now Bajafam, don"t get your "panties in a Bunch"!!

From the very start this Thread has been over the Nuts who fall for the Bull Puckey of the groups which seek money by playing on peoples fears.

I have lived a much different life than you,Born 2 years before FDR became President watched the REA gettingstarted, watched my Dad work for a Buck a Day. went thrgh Rationing of Sugar and stuff, Graduated from Hi School and became a Hobo for 2 and Half years.

Spent 38 years on the Sea of Cortez and then along comes a bunch of College Graduates and a Phoney Sacto news Story telling everyone "The Sea of Cortez is Ruined""
Then the Endangered Species Bunch. Different thing happen and just as the thing with the Vaguita the words used try to Pin all of the problem on the Commercial Fisherman,
I have yet to see anyone Hollaring about the Giant Squid being Endangered.

We are part of this Plant, if we are engaged in elimating a Specie for Food or Income, then we are just in the Survival of the Fitest line of Happenings.

It is not Honest for People to play on others Fears just to get their money for their own use!!

The same thing goes for the likes of the AARP. Playing on peoples Fears and then using their money to promote Socialism. What a Shame.

Since I beldive in a Supreme Being I guess that I have it better than you, I have Faith that things in Nature have a way of Balancing out.
We cannot save the Plant to be as we hope it will be for our Grandchildren.
As it looks now days they will be loaded on DOPE and not care about the difference we tried to make!!

Yopu cannot Control the Future! Look what happened to the Greastest Generation . Just look around you.

Skeet

bajafam - 11-10-2010 at 05:19 PM

I guess I have a different view than your "everything sucks, so who cares" way of living. Perhaps I am naive in thinking that I can make a difference....that I can teach my children to teach others to make a difference....that the choices I make on a daily basis DIRECTLY effect all of the above. Perhaps.

Really? No one cares that the Giant Squid is endangered?
The Sperm Whale does. It is it's main source of food. Who cares about the Sperm Whale? Well, the Orca eats it and we all know how much $$ Shamu brings in...you get the picture...we are all connected. What we eat, eats something else, and so on and so forth. Destroy one link and the damage is done.

Just because people are fearful (huh?) of environmentalists...doesn't mean that those groups are preying upon them for their own financial gain. There must be some retrictions and regulations on the killing of these creatures....just think what would have happened had Scammon been successful in eliminating the grey whales? Think that would not have made a difference?

Since you believe in a Supreme Being, as you proclaim, then you understand the "fear of God" and the punishment for gluttony (the over-indulgence and over-consumption of anything to the point of waste), greed (inordinate desire to acquire or possess more than one needs or deserves, and pride(a desire to be more important than other things) all of which are quite descriptive of the many folks current view on subjects such as this. Nature does have a way of balancing out...or at least it did before we sped up the process with our flippancy. I'm sure that your Supreme Being (as I apparently do not have one?) is not pleased with what is being done to this great blue and green planet. Perhaps that is the reason you say that all our grandchildren will be too doped up to care....coincidence? I think not. The future generations are the ones that will have to pay for the failures of the so-called "Greatest Generation". It's time for Generations X,Y, and Z to wake the F up and start doing something....and that starts with admitting that there is a problem. I am proud to be a part of these generations...hopeful, determined, and not willing to accept that the world is doomed and we're just biding time until we cross over to the other side anyway, so who gives a chit? I live here now..my kids live here now. And I don't want to live on a dead planet in a bubble (seen Wall-E? It's all too real for those with an attitude like yours). Personally, I don't want to be forced to live on a spaceship waiting for the day when the Earth is re-inhabitable.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-10-2010 at 05:35 PM

Fam:
I certainly do not think that you will be here to see any effect the "Endangered Speces have on this plant.
Now if you were a Mexicano Family that had been fishing for a living the past Hundred Years and a Bunch of Nuts tried to take you Fish and Income away "i wonder how you would feel about their Grandchildren????? Or their Chidren?? or themselves who have to Eat!!!

bajafam - 11-10-2010 at 05:43 PM

I could care less if I am here to see it....that's the point!! It's not about me! Or you!!

And if those Mexican families aren't taught/restricted/regulated to fish sustainably....they will out fish on their own. No one is taking away their fish and the income that you speak of is fed by US greed...and the desire for all things exotic to stuff in our faces. The people of Bahia Asuncion, Punta Abreojos, Bahia Tortugas and all points in between make a fine living with their world recognized sustainable fisheries. Why can't that work elsewhere?

Skeet/Loreto - 11-10-2010 at 06:16 PM

Baja fam:

Why can't you work else where?

Leave the Mesxcano alone!!
Go back to the States and try to save wome of the DOPERS!!

bajafam - 11-10-2010 at 06:21 PM

Mexico is my home too and the birthplace of my son.

flyfishinPam - 11-11-2010 at 11:57 AM

I am glad skeet is posting again and hopefully he won't be too frustrated. This issue is an emotional one but it took my first hand observations of cause and affect to change my mind. I am still shell shocked over it. I a lot of these same arguments against skeet that are here but now I find myself defending him. Skeet I guess this is just something we have to learn on our own.

This vaquita subject is interesting so I looked it up. What I can conclude is this: the natural habitat of the vaquita was severely reduced (area-wise) by the damming of the Colorado river. This damming was done to divert its waters to irrigate farmland in the USA and probably to harness some electricity too. The marine life that has commercial value has been less affected however it continues to be harvested. Shrimp collection methods (trawlers) and gillnets have severely reduced the already damaged population of the vaquita.

So how will this creature be saved? By creating a biosphere reserve which will severely affect the quality of life and limit the rights of the Mexican fishermen who depend on the area. This is another example of the limitation of the freedoms of a third world countries citizens in order to solve a problem that was created by another richer nation. Elitism at its finest.

There is big money in this and that beautiful colorful sign in an above post was likely paid for the big foreign foundations. Our marine park isn't financially supported by very much Mexican money it is mainly supported by big foreign funds. This is an indirect violation of article 33.

Wanna save the vaquita? then let the CO river run free and stop buying Mexican shrimp. Like I said before its up to the USA consumer to change this, not the Mexican fishermen who unfortunately will end up paying the price.

....in your dreams

mcfez - 11-11-2010 at 12:35 PM

Abuse it and it goes away. Just like your kids you abused. The wife. The friend. The food chain. Abuse it and it gets all used up. It goes away.

Old growth Redwoods - 3% remaining!

The North Pacific right whale- a species that it may be too late to save.

Fertile soil - over use (destruction) was responsible for the decline of the Mesopotamian, Persian and
Roman civilizations, and in more recent times, contributed to the Great Depression.

*Cod has been an important economic commodity in international markets since the Viking period (around 800 AD)
*17th and 18th centuries, the New World, cod became a major commodity, creating trade networks and cross-cultural exchanges.
*In 2000, WWF placed cod on the endangered species list.
*In 2010, Greenpeace International has added the Atlantic cod to its seafood red list. "The Greenpeace International seafood red list is a list of fish that are commonly sold in supermarkets around the world, and which have a very high risk of being sourced from unsustainable fisheries.
*That cod you are having as "fish n chips" or the McDonald's Fish sandwich....is not Cod anymore...they ran short of it!

Over use, mismanagement, I don't give a damn altitude....don't work in this world. Change is needed.

Yeah...it all looks just swell at the Sea Of Cortez.......in your dreams

[Edited on 11-11-2010 by mcfez]

mtgoat666 - 11-11-2010 at 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Since I beldive in a Supreme Being I guess that I have it better than you, I have Faith that things in Nature have a way of Balancing out.

mo-skeet-er:
god does not exist. faith in a fictional characters and stories are not a rational basis for decisions on managing natural resources.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-11-2010 at 12:50 PM

No McFez In my past 38 years living and fishing and observing, and studing the Great Sea of Cortez.

You are as Full of chit as a Xmas Turkey!!

I would suggest that if you would like to give your Life for an Endangered Specie go ahead by all means.

But for a Human being to take and Control the Lives of other people , such as the mexicano Fisherman, all in the Bull chit"Save it for my Children" is the most Stupied and Dumb thinking anywhere.

Just think, If possible, what would happen if a bunch of you Nuts got control of the Water on the Colo River. First thing you would do is Blow up the Dams, then How would the people who eat contiune to do so??

That is the way your Generation is, Just Plain Dumb!Look at you Smoking DOPE and killing your Children and nobody trying to change it, but a whole bunch out there trying to get people to send them Donations to save a Whale.

Start taking care of your Children. Dummies!!

mcfez - 11-11-2010 at 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
No McFez In my past 38 years living and fishing and observing, and studing the Great Sea of Cortez.

You are as Full of poop as a Xmas Turkey!!

I would suggest that if you would like to give your Life for an Endangered Specie go ahead by all means.

But for a Human being to take and Control the Lives of other people , such as the mexicano Fisherman, all in the Bull chit"Save it for my Children" is the most Stupied and Dumb thinking anywhere.

Just think, If possible, what would happen if a bunch of you Nuts got control of the Water on the Colo River. First thing you would do is Blow up the Dams, then How would the people who eat contiune to do so??

That is the way your Generation is, Just Plain Dumb!Look at you Smoking DOPE and killing your Children and nobody trying to change it, but a whole bunch out there trying to get people to send them Donations to save a Whale.

Start taking care of your Children. Dummies!!

Thank you very much for your response. A arousing laughter of your ludicrous words put tears in my eyes.

You made it very clear to most readers here that you lack having the capacity for thought and reason especially to a high degree.....you are not invested with much intelligence.

If I had the time...you be a great BN to troll.

mtgoat666 - 11-11-2010 at 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
What I want is accruate and complete and Honest Science!!

but perhaps you only want science that agrees with your opinion....

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Spent 38 years on the Sea of Cortez and then along comes a bunch of College Graduates and a Phoney Sacto news Story telling everyone "The Sea of Cortez is Ruined""

damn college graduates!

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Then the Endangered Species Bunch. Different thing happen and just as the thing with the Vaguita the words used try to Pin all of the problem on the Commercial Fisherman,

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
We are part of this Plant, if we are engaged in elimating a Specie for Food or Income, then we are just in the Survival of the Fitest line of Happenings.

well, if the vacquita or another fish species is saved by eco-liberal-fruit-nuts, and the local fisherman loses -- then perhaps the fittest has survived. you are OK with that, right?

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
We cannot save the Plant to be as we hope it will be for our Grandchildren.
As it looks now days they will be loaded on DOPE and not care about the difference we tried to make!!

skeet, it's all about survival of the fittest. if dopers are fittest, it is right that they win, eh? perhaps dope smoking increases a persons fitness.

Cypress - 11-11-2010 at 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by flyfishinPam Skeet I guess this is just something we have to learn on our own.

Agree. Have seen what's happening to the Sea of Cortez in other places and other times. The sportsfishermen will move on, but the small commercial guys, with a panga and gill net or two.. Where will they go?

Skeet/Loreto - 11-11-2010 at 02:01 PM

Pam>
As you and I both have learned about the many chnages, good and bad that happen to the Great Sea of cortez, we have experienced the good and bad such as the taking out of the Sierra. The Sierra are back. The taking out of the Squid, they are not back Yet!!.They will be!

Keep up the good Fishing and when those "Begging Donation Hunters come around" tell them to get lost!!

ecomujeres - 11-11-2010 at 03:43 PM

I have been off the grid for awhile and haven't followed this thread fully.

But after reading the last page or so of posts, I wanted to suggest that if people on this board have doubts that Mexicans are also highly concerned about overfishing and over-exploitation of resources in the Sea of Cortez and are looking for remedies to these man-made problems (mostly created by large-scale, commerical concerns), that they should spend some time reading the first 3 issues of a new, regional environmental newspaper, available in both Spanish and English on the web:

http://www.meloncoyote.org

The last issue, from October is about to become available on the site as well (hopefully by the weekend).

Most of the articles, written by local people from the 5 states bordering the Gulf. have to do with concerns about the decline in the fisheries in the short lifetimes of most of the people involved. Or about the exploitation of natural resources at an alarming rate, or the loss of estuaries or...

[Edited on 11-11-2010 by ecomujeres]

Skeet/Loreto - 11-11-2010 at 04:12 PM

ecomujeres:

Do you know if any of the people involved in these studies have ever been to Mercenarios Reef which is located 35 miles North East on a heading of 030 degrees??
Do you know if they have been there what was the re**** of their Visit??

Would appreciate an answer on this Thread if you get anyinformation.

thanks

Skeet

Sidamone - 11-11-2010 at 10:26 PM

Quote:

You made it very clear to most readers here that you lack having the capacity for thought and reason especially to a high degree.....you are not invested with much intelligence.

Anyone with 27 years in a panga is not likely to have many brain cells remaining. Now, with the Internet, one can bring ones delusions to the masses. Skeet's been providing free entertainment for over a decade and when he's no longer around, this will be a pretty boring place. Just look at the decline since JR's demise.

[Edited on 11-12-2010 by Sidamone]

Cypress - 11-12-2010 at 05:45 AM

Are Vaquita actually caught in shrimp nets? Never heard of a dolphin/porpoise caught in a shrimp net. Turtles yes, but dolphins? There is a turtle excluder device that's supposed to be effective. Matter of fact, aren't Mexican shrimp banned from the US market untill their shrimp fleet has turtle excuder devices installed? Bottom trawls are very destructive on juvenile fish. The doors and lead/chain lines have the same effect as a bulldozer on the seafloor.

bajafam - 11-12-2010 at 09:37 PM

Please refer to the page http://vaquita.tv for more info on the plight of the Vaquita...

Skeet...argh! I have no more words for you or to you. Enough already.

Lets keep this post going...

mcfez - 11-12-2010 at 09:42 PM

According to the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization, one in four animals caught in fishing gear dies as bycatch (unwanted or unintentional catch). Tons of fish are tossed out because they're not what the fishing boat was after, have no market value, or are too small to sell. Bycatch often takes young fish that could rebuild depleted populations if they were allowed to grow up and breed. It is estimated that for each pound of shrimp caught in a trawl net, an average of 2 to 10 pounds of other marine life is caught and discarded as bycatch.

SFLowTide - 11-12-2010 at 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Are Vaquita actually caught in shrimp nets? Never heard of a dolphin/porpoise caught in a shrimp net. Turtles yes, but dolphins? There is a turtle excluder device that's supposed to be effective. Matter of fact, aren't Mexican shrimp banned from the US market untill their shrimp fleet has turtle excuder devices installed? Bottom trawls are very destructive on juvenile fish. The doors and lead/chain lines have the same effect as a bulldozer on the seafloor.

This might be a good place to check out if anybody is unsure that gill netting has had an impact on the Vaquita population.

http://vaquita.tv/

Personally, I can't remember a trip (Bahia Sta. Maria-Playa Hermosa area) that I didn't see a pod of Vaquitas at least once 25-30 yrs ago. Now it's an event worthy of calling home for when just one is viewed from binoculars. I just hope they will not go the way of the armies of fiddler crabs that we used to have on the beachs...

ecomujeres - 11-12-2010 at 10:54 PM

mcfez:

When they talk about by-catch rates at the Grupo Tortuguero or other international sea turtle conferences, can you believe that most stats show it is something like 10-14 pounds of bycatch for every pound of shrimp?

I see that your UN stat above talks about all animals. I've not seen it broken down in that way before. Thanks.

Both are unacceptable as far as I am concerned. They are both really good examples of how fishing with nets (especially those mile long gill nets) or shrimp nets that scrape the bottom are so destructive to all other sea life) and how our desire for fresh sea food is doing so much harm, whether intentionally or not.

It's one reason I no longer can eat shrimp in good conscience. Fortunately, I don't like other seafood!

I want a beef steak

mcfez - 11-12-2010 at 11:03 PM

So I am going to drag my net over the land....catching whatever in it.....dogs, cat, rats, kids, maybe a priest, cows.....

Dump all that junk life for the cow only. Yummy.

Same thing these knuckleheads do.

ecomujeres - 11-12-2010 at 11:15 PM

Don't forget the politicians!

Skeet/Loreto - 11-16-2010 at 11:54 AM

why cannot you Nuts understand that "You cannot control the Planet"".

Nature is what God made it.
Did you see wwhere another Species of Giant Squid was just discovered??
I wonder which one of the Endangered Speceis Nuts will come up and say that this new Discovery is Endangered.

Human Beings cannot control the Planet. Yes they can control some very small things but Nature has the ability to create these things as these little tings are "Changed"'.

That is what happens to peoples minds when they do not have any "Faith, or Hope' in those things that they cannot Control or Change.

Could it be that the New Discovered "Giant Squid" will replace the "Vaquita?? That in Natures way of things the Vaguita moves out and the New Giant Squid takes over???

vandenberg - 11-16-2010 at 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
why cannot you Nuts understand that "You cannot control the Planet"".

Skeets solutions in a "NUTSHELL" :biggrin:

When going to grade school, the population of this good old world was at 3 to 4 billion. Maybe the fact that we're approaching 7 billion in a 60 year span, has something to do with earth's problems ?

mtgoat666 - 11-16-2010 at 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
why cannot you Nuts understand that "You cannot control the Planet"".
Nature is what God made it.
Did you see wwhere another Species of Giant Squid was just discovered??
Human Beings cannot control the Planet. Yes they can control some very small things but Nature has the ability to create these things as these little tings are "Changed"'.

Skeet,
You are wrong. Mankind can cause great changes on our planet, a few examples... Look at the Mississipi and Columbia rivers - dams have changed these dramatically. Farming/ranching in USA has eradicated all of the praries (there might be a few hundred acres left). Fishing has changed the worlds oceans -- the relative proportions of fish species is nothing like before industrial revolution. In the 1960s/1970s there was recognition that pesticide applications were causing impacts to species all over the world, and some of the bad pesticides had to be eliminated to achieve recovery for those species. Your precious bald eagle was at one time almost extinct, partly due to DDT. Acid rain caused changes in lakes all over the eastern seaboard. While y'all deny it for political and personal reasons, industrial emissions have caused changes in the climate.

Mankind can control the planet -- mankind has dammed just about every major river in the world. And you are delusional to think that those dams have not changed the river and marine environments. (in the US, the bureau of reclamation's sole prupose was once to change the continent).

The simultaneous actions of billions of people are bound to have an impact and change the ecosytems of the entire planet -- and there is ample proof tof the changes caused

Skeet/Loreto - 11-16-2010 at 01:07 PM

goat:
Very well said :
But;Changes are made in specific locations, and yes increase in Populations means more food consumed, more fish eaten, more dams built,like in china.
To the Planet on a Whole and from my 80 years here, the Sun stil Shines, the Wind still blows, the Trees still Grow, and yes my 2 Bald Eagles are still here, and I would agree that in a small area like over the Central Valley of california the Air becomes Toxic at more often than I like

Survival of the Fitest: Could it not be that the Mass of Population increase will come about to where people will start being an Endangered Species because of their Weak Minds and Actions.

A Prime example of that is DOPE and BOOSE, and I think some of this New Energy Drink will cause lots of Problems down the Road. We as Humans must take care of ourselves, have Faith and do the best we can to Survive, that means to eliminate the "Weaker ones" who are not strong enough to FIGHT. but turn to DOPE to Escape!

One thing that the Endangered Species Nuts will never mention is the FACT that many of the Fish of the Sea of Cortez go out of the Sea and return on Cycles. It will never be ruined!!! The latest news about the Giant Squid should show to those Nuts that there is so much out there it can never be controled by them or their GranDChildren.

Now I willhave to admit that certain changes can be made on a large scale basis when dealing with Humans.
Example: A War type Country was killing People and trying to Control the World. What happened?? Harry S. Truman pulled the Swithc and Killed a bunch of them;; Japan Changed, its people changed. Survival of the Fitest.

If that stands to reason with the Endangered Species Nuts then the Only way to stop their socalled Distruction is to Eliminate a whole bunch of People.

Agree or Disagree Goat???
.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-16-2010 at 01:09 PM

Goat, the one thing that bothers me about you Theories is you speak of "Great Things that can be done by Mankind" and in the other Breath blame Mankind for the Destruction of this Planet.

It is just not Logical.

mtgoat666 - 11-16-2010 at 01:18 PM

skeeter:
the solution is mandatory birth control, penatlties for over-consumption, and strict environmental laws :lol:

the capitalist/consumer approach of if-it-feels-good-do-it is destroying the environment :lol:

mtgoat666 - 11-16-2010 at 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
If that stands to reason with the Endangered Species Nuts then the Only way to stop their socalled Distruction is to Eliminate a whole bunch of People.

Agree or Disagree Goat???

agree. mandatory birth control. market forces won't accomplish birth control. need government to supress the urges.

Sidamone - 11-16-2010 at 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

agree. mandatory birth control. market forces won't accomplish birth control. need government to supress the urges.

why are you talking to a fence post?

Skeet/Loreto - 11-16-2010 at 01:54 PM

Yes Goat:

And does that not play right into your Ideas of "How People should be controlled by the Communists, and Socialist??

I beleive in the Invidual rights of the People otherwise those Commie Nuts will get control and offset the balance of Nature by controlling the Survival of the Fitest.

Now Goat you never have answered my Question about the Horses Tail!

Who is responsible? Supreme Being Nature or Science??

Did it take a Mind to understand that a Horse needs a Tail to Swat Flies to protect itself from Harm???

Now if a bunch of Endangered Species Nuts came up with the Idea that the Horse was killing a certain Specie of a Fly. What would they do?? Kill all the horses?? Or just cut their tails off, then the Horse would have no "Natural. Scientfic, or Supreme Being protection!!

mtgoat666 - 11-16-2010 at 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Now Goat you never have answered my Question about the Horses Tail!

skeet:
you should know the answer, because you are a horses *ss :lol:

[Edited on 11-16-2010 by mtgoat666]

Skeet/Loreto - 11-16-2010 at 02:23 PM

Come on Sidimone Jump in and get you feet Wet!!

Now Goat, why can you not answer the Question. Are you "One of the mentioned?"

Sidemone: Please give us a description of your Past Experiences so that we may determine your Qualities.
Do you know of what you speak"That I am a Fence Post with 5 Acres in the Texas Panhandle with a Couple of Pretty horses Dogs and Kitty Cats Skunks, Possums,Lots of Deer, a couple of Bald Eagles.

Don't be a Nimcompoop and Hide!!

Skeet

bajafam - 11-16-2010 at 08:40 PM

Oh for crying out loud....Skeet....you are a curmudgeon.

drarroyo - 11-16-2010 at 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto

Nature is what God made it.
??

the fact that you folks 'entertain' this clown is so 'righteous'!!! ...please keep up the great work!!

dtbushpilot - 11-16-2010 at 09:24 PM

I think mankind should get off the planet and give it time to heal. I'll start mixing the kool-aid, please form a line and take a glass....

bajafam - 11-17-2010 at 09:16 AM

I hear there'll be a rocket to mars soon....anyone want to help raise money to put Skeet on it?

Cypress - 11-17-2010 at 09:40 AM

He's already on another planet.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-17-2010 at 01:55 PM

Oh! You Poor Babies: Just listen to the Fraidy Cats.
He little ole Skeet calls them out for Facts about their Bull Puckey and they cannot Respond..

Why?????

Is it becasue Ole Skeet has been around, done some Investigationm spent a whole lotta Time in and on the Sea of Cortez and know they are as Full of Bull Puckey as a Xmas Turkey.

If I am so wrong why isn't there someone out there with the Time and Balls to go to the Sea of Cortez and Prove me Wrong.
This Young bunch of Mall walking, Pants Draggin, Butt Showing Listeners to Nasty word Music{Rap} do not have the Brains to accloumplish a small task as presented.

They are so afraid of their comments that they will not even give their Back Ground , experience, and education to a least put some credance to their Statements!!

I must say they are pretty good and coming up with some Funny Names.
Fencepost, Religious Nut etc.

Comon you Young Kids show some strength, some Class, some evidence that you are not being controlled by the likes of George Soros.

mtgoat666 - 11-17-2010 at 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
know they are as Full of Bull Puckey as a Xmas Turkey.

are xmas turkeys really full of bull puckey?

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
...some evidence that you are not being controlled by the likes of George Soros.

i will do whatever he wants -- he pays me in paprika!

mcfez - 11-17-2010 at 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Jorge
Ate turtle eggs back in the 70s in Costa Rica on the Nicoya while camping. Locals shared and we indulged. I think it is important to eat local and know your food.

Sea of Cortez is a special place. I had a good fishing year on pelagics off the East Cape, best in a long time. I have had bad years too, pelagics are like that.

But saying the Sea is back merely on the basis of pelagic fish counts is like saying the state of agriculture in Amercia is healthy as judged by the beautiful, green fields of GMO corn and soybeans planted section to section across middle earth.

It isn't healthy in either place. Dive under the Sea on any reef and it is not same experience today as it was 30 years ago. Dig the soil from the farmland and look for the life under a microscope and it is not the picture of health and diversity it once was either.

As far as not buying shrimp, according to some studies, Mexico only exports the big ones to gabacholandia and actually consumes the majority of it's overall production internally. I don't buy shrimp for lots of reasons, except from the rowboat coming in from the trawler, or local caught prawns when in territory.

http://www.cggc.duke.edu/environment/CGGC_SinaloaShrimp_Repo...

Gobalization is a reality and America no longer is the only market for quality export grade shrimp. China and Europe are fast becoming the new market for IQF, head on, wild caught, large size shrimp. Coastal China has real money and is becoming a sophisticated, consumer market and the Chinese, like Europeans, appreciate real food.

I agree with concept of locally produced and locally consumed when possible. NGO's, government and corporations look out for their interests. It is time we looked out for ours together in community. Every unit of money we spend is a vote in the reality of globalization.

Best post that I have ever read here at the BN. Don Jorge - five star post here.

"I agree with concept of locally produced and locally consumed when possible." That's our concept at the farm. Local major store, Ralley's Superstore, is now buying locally whenever possible. So ya....take care of your backyard!

Cypress - 11-17-2010 at 02:18 PM

Skeet/Loreto, You just don't get it. Many of the people that you're mocking have just as much, maybe more, fishing experience as you do. Granted you spent many years on one body of water, The Sea of Cortez. Every sea, bay, gulf, river, lake, is unique in it's own way, yet they are all alike in many ways. Too many nets and too many hooks have decimated the fish stocks around the world. The Sea of Cortez is just another example.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-17-2010 at 02:59 PM

Cypress, You just don.t get it along with the Otheres/

You and your Generation has been suckered in by a bunch of Bull Puckey; Al Gore and the Global Warming Fiasco is a good example,
The same way with the Sea of Cortez following the False Info put out in the Sacramento Bee and other Places.

Your Generation is weak and easily controlled by DOPE, Phoney News Media and Newspapers all telling you things to bring FEAR into your Lives.

Then your Generation has the Gall to try to tell the Mexicano Fisherman that they cannot fish anymore,which they have been doing for a 100 years, just so Thier Grandchildren will be able to see a Vaquita!! Take away food from their Mouths to satify your Phony way of thinking.THEY DO NOT HAVE THAT RIGHT!!!!

Again PROVE TO ME WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE IF THE VAQUITA IS,
GONE FOREVER>>>>>>>>>

What difference does it make if a certain Species of Shrimp is Gone??

mcfez - 11-17-2010 at 03:11 PM

Here's Randy's website:

http://www.blueroadrunner.com/vaquitas.htm

In case you would like information on the Vaquitas. At this website...Randy has included:

http://www.cedointercultural.org/vaquita_english.pdf

Cypress - 11-17-2010 at 03:31 PM

I don't buy into any of Al Gore's BS, the Global Warming scam, and don't do dope. Was on a working shrimp boat when I was 6 or 7 yrs old, my parents were trying to make a dollar or two. Was fishing the northern Gulf of Mexico with my parents thru the 50's. They got me started. Have used gill nets, trawls, hoop nets, set lines, and crab traps. Have fished commercially, for govt. research and recreation. And yea, have caught some fish. What difference does it make if the Vaquita is gone forever? It all depends upon how you look at.

mtgoat666 - 11-17-2010 at 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE IF THE VAQUITA IS,
GONE FOREVER>>>>>>>>>

What difference does it make if a certain Species of Shrimp is Gone??

what difference does it make if the fisherman needs to change occupation?
why do you think your god values the fisherman more than the animal? skeeter, if you got it wrong, you will burn in h*ll.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-17-2010 at 04:26 PM

Goat:

Who gave you the right to tell other People how they should live and Work??

Skeet/Loreto - 11-17-2010 at 04:29 PM

Well I am oputa here. The Pian is getting Bad and I have to have Gall Bladder Surgery Friday Morning.

Gues that is why I have been so Grumpy the past several Days.

Keep this going and I do appreciae the guy Randy doing a good job of Investigation of the Vaquita.
I just do not see what diference it makes to me or you. A Specie will be eliminated. How does it Physical effect me or You??

Cypress - 11-17-2010 at 04:50 PM

Skeet/Loreto, Good luck with your surgery. Wish you well.

mtgoat666 - 11-17-2010 at 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Goat:

Who gave you the right to tell other People how they should live and Work??

who gave you the right to determine what species goes extinct?

people form govts to regulate how we live and work,... so the right of govts to save the vaquita comes from the people.

the right of enviro greenie groups to influence public opinion rests in freedom of speech and persuasion.

i hope that surgery improves your nasty disposition. can the scalpel even pierce that tough hide? good luck :bounce:

DENNIS - 11-17-2010 at 05:09 PM

Nice bedside manner, Goat. Power to the people.

mcfez - 11-17-2010 at 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Well I am oputa here. The Pian is getting Bad and I have to have Gall Bladder Surgery Friday Morning.

Gues that is why I have been so Grumpy the past several Days.

Keep this going and I do appreciae the guy Randy doing a good job of Investigation of the Vaquita.
I just do not see what diference it makes to me or you. A Specie will be eliminated. How does it Physical effect me or You??

I suppose like vultures....we will be here when you get back :yes:

Regardless....hope your surgery goes very well and we wish you the best.

bajafam - 11-17-2010 at 10:44 PM

Well, Skeet, as much as you are a thorn in my arse, I wish you well in your surgery...I hope that you aren't eliminated you grumpy old bastard! Godspeed...

Christmas Turkey

ckiefer - 11-18-2010 at 02:32 AM

Skeet,

You've mentioned Christmas Turkeys stuffed with feces at least twice now. Who's doing the cookin in your house? If you need a good recipe for stuffing shoot me a U2U and I'll send you my favorite! Eyes only. :lol:

Yes, Gall bladder surgery can make a person grumpy.....
Wishing you a speedy recovery so that you can come back and well.....do what you do do....

Skeet/Loreto - 11-19-2010 at 04:51 PM

Sorry Goat. I made it!
this will be short. Left my home at & Am arrive BSA hospial and startedt Test. All dressed out and entered the Surgery Room at 10;30' Out to recovery Got up at 12 Noon, Dixcahared at 2;45 Pm. They took the bladde- No Problems.

I am in no pain right now as they gave me Tylonol 3. and I am going to Bed.

I just had to go on Pam"s Post "That is not Loreto!!! Its CValled Loreto Bay Villages and numerous other names depending on your Culturae and Experience.

Skeet

bajafam - 11-21-2010 at 12:07 PM

Skeet, I know you are recovering and don't think it makes a difference to anyone, and also that you believe that none of this will occur within our lifetime, (also not Baja related, but related to the thread nonetheless)but, this subspecies of tiger is predicted to be extinct within 12 years, unless some extreme "eco-terrorism" is put into action.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_russia_saving_tigers

mtgoat666 - 11-21-2010 at 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Sorry Goat. I made it!

good going, old man!

get well soon so you can come on back and tell us your turkey stuffing recipe made from bull puckey. i won't try or taste that foul concoction, but i do want to read the recipe.

perhaps that style of cooking explains why your gall bladder went bad?

Skeet/Loreto - 11-21-2010 at 01:49 PM

bajafam: Wow! Still cannot logically understand "What Difference does it make.????
Now if it was theAmerican Indians I can understand as it is alreadying happening through InBreeding..
Look at me 1/2 Cherokee and I don"t look and act like an Indian. After they were defeated and we gave them so much Money and Education and they started InBreeding look what Happened.!!

Now I have to agree that their way of life was changed{A difference was made}. I have to agree that the resulting offsprings did not contuine the Various problesm such as heavy Drinking>

But Bajafam, what you must see is that Animals are different , Humans are the ones to control at this time in our World.

A persons Food Supply overtakes a Sub-speceis Food Supply.

Skeet/Loreto - 11-21-2010 at 01:54 PM

Goat: Made it, 2nd day back and the pain arrived for awhile. It must of been the "Bull Puckey Soup";
Goat take two large Bull Puckey Patties soad in Chenin Blanc Wine overnite, add 2 cups pf Cranberries, 1 Cup of Sugar, and 4 Jalapeno Peppers. Cook for 15 minutes and serve.

Can you imagine all the ""Powered People" setting around their Camp Fires shouting Hurrah Churchill!! Hurrah Chruchi;;!!. Just wait until we take over America so that it can be like Russia and France!!

Power to the People!!!

Cypress - 11-21-2010 at 02:08 PM

Skeet/Loreto, Glad your surgery went well. Hope you're not mean- mouthing one of my hero's, Winston Churchill.

bajafam - 11-21-2010 at 02:09 PM

Skeet, what you are missing is the we Humans are animals too. I suppose when some other creature's food supply is eliminated and that particular animal starts to eat us instead and we are bumped down a notch on the food chain, I suppose then it will matter. Until then, all is well...rest easy...no worries...eventually Humans will kill off all the creatures of this planet....maybe then it will matter?

Skeet/Loreto - 11-21-2010 at 02:55 PM

Cypress"

Ward Churchill- Formerly of the University of Denver

Cypress - 11-21-2010 at 03:03 PM

Yea, that guy will never make the "Hero" catagory.

DENNIS - 11-21-2010 at 03:43 PM

Skeet....Did you remove your own Gallbladder? You are, of course, "The Most Interesting Man In The world."

"Stay thirsty my friends." [I still don't know what that means]

Skeet/Loreto - 11-21-2010 at 04:23 PM

Dennis:
"Stay Thirsty my Friends" means to keep dringkng a lot of Water and you will be in better shape for it.

Took them about and hour and a Half. two hours afterward I went Home. Some pain but only had to take a couple of Pills Tylonol 3.

Cypress, What do you think about those Nuts in colo who want to change the name of Kit Carson Mountain??

That is a good example of the Mentality of the "Younger Generation"/

DENNIS - 11-21-2010 at 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto

Cypress, What do you think about those Nuts in colo who want to change the name of Kit Carson Mountain??

What do they want to change it to?

Skipjack Joe - 11-21-2010 at 05:02 PM

Brockman Mountain.

[Edited on 11-22-2010 by Skipjack Joe]

mcfez - 11-21-2010 at 05:28 PM

Welcome back Skeet. Glad to hear you are doing fine. Going under the knife is a risky adventure.

Did you have a big German male nurse aiding you? :lol:

Cypress - 11-21-2010 at 05:30 PM

Skeet/Loreto, Don't know one way or the other. What's wrong with name the mountain already has?

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