BajaNomad - Carlos Fiesta's Plane en route from Mexico crashes in Newport Beach, CA!

Carlos Fiesta's Plane en route from Mexico crashes in Newport Beach, CA!

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capt. mike - 11-26-2010 at 05:43 AM

i think the rescue team reported no fuel in the [A?] tank.

i did the route simulated on flightsoft and took the course that would make most sense if ok WX and given the plane, a musketeer which is seriously underpowered and slow - just built like a tank as are all Beeches - that's why it weighed so much but for dog slow speed.

i think Juan reported he called home from - ? was it Calexico maybe? and that was late afternoon?
makes sense - customs done and back in USA - get gassed and one leg to go.
i think WX played a role. and if he planned gas just for distance needed and minimum VFR reserves, then 40 kts on the nose would eat that to pieces when your true airspeed is only a hundred knots or so.

the winds i think varied but the same cold front had passed and was in AZ with very crummy conditions - low freezing levels, rain and gusty winds with turbulance. if he is on the back side of the low expect strong head winds and turbulence.

i don't like to fly socal VFR in good WX, and even then with unltd vis i do IFR in that system cause it is so unforgiving. Add in lowering light, potential fuel reserve issues and poor vis from clouds and rain - toss in a mix of wind and shear. the NTSB arre damn good and will sort it out.
alternatively he might have had carb ice, which with temps in effect plus visible moisture - look out. unless he was fuel injected but i doubt it. probably an O-320 LYC.

Ken Bondy - 11-26-2010 at 07:02 AM

mike I've flown that route (Calexico-Van Nuys) literally a hundred times, both IFR and VFR. It passes abeam Torrance as you approach LAX. It was my normal route returning from a Baja trip. I have had some bad wx but never experienced anything like a constant 40-knot headwind. This is really puzzling. Wonder if they had some kind of a fuel leak, like at a fuel cap. I once drained one of the mains on my Baron on a flight from Modesto to Van Nuys. Started with full fuel in Modesto, right engine quit suddenly over Gorman. I know, I know, should pay more attention to the gages. A quick switch to the aux tank solved the problem immediately but it sure scared the hell out of me. Problem was diagnosed as a faulty o-ring seal on the fuel cap, which sucked out all the fuel. It collapsed the bladder which had to be replaced. So I know first-hand that things like that can happen. I know it won't bring those guys back but the reason for this tragedy will be important for all pilots to know.

capt. mike - 11-26-2010 at 07:20 AM

fuel leak might very well be the thing, a slow siphoning with the effect of negative pressure or vacuum over the wing via our friend Bernoulli?

Ken Bondy - 11-26-2010 at 08:26 AM

Sure is possible. I should add one thing. I made a little joke about not paying attention to the [fuel] gages, but in reality the collapsing bladder jammed the sensor in the tank, so the gages on the panel stayed in, or close to, the "full" position on the panel. So I got no warning that the fuel was being siphoned out of the tank until the engine quit.

Barry A. - 11-26-2010 at 10:57 AM

Ken Bondy-------why did the fuel-bladder have to be replaced? Would not re-fueling it just make it go back to it's original shape within the compartment? (apparently not, but I don't know why)

I have installed several of those "fuel bladders" in a Baron and they are pretty flexible.

Barry

tripledigitken - 11-26-2010 at 11:02 AM

My hope is when the investigation is complete it will aid in preventing this from happening to any more of our pilot amigos. We have lost too many in such a short time.

Sidamone - 11-26-2010 at 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Sure is possible. I should add one thing. I made a little joke about not paying attention to the [fuel] gages, but in reality the collapsing bladder jammed the sensor in the tank, so the gages on the panel stayed in, or close to, the "full" position on the panel. So I got no warning that the fuel was being siphoned out of the tank until the engine quit.

Was this before AD's were instituted? Or was yours the first Baron in it's illustrious history to have this happen?

DENNIS - 11-26-2010 at 11:24 AM

Of all places to engage in a chitfight, this ain't it.

bajaguy - 11-26-2010 at 11:30 AM

It is apparent that there are a few people on this board and specifically this topic who don't know when to keep their mouth shut or when to take something to u2u

Barry A. - 11-26-2010 at 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy
It is apparent that there are a few people on this board and specifically this topic who don't know when to keep their mouth shut or when to take something to u2u

Right you are-------sorry folks-------got carried away.

Barry

bajaguy - 11-26-2010 at 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy
It is apparent that there are a few people on this board and specifically this topic who don't know when to keep their mouth shut or when to take something to u2u

Right you are-------sorry folks-------got carried away.

Barry

Barry...........not referring to you........

Sidamone - 11-26-2010 at 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy
It is apparent that there are a few people on this board and specifically this topic who don't know when to keep their mouth shut or when to take something to u2u

Thank you for your eloquent words, and your concern. Thus far, nothing has been handled by u2u, on the contrary, some have expressed to know more information to avoid instances like this in the future. We all have our different "takes" obviously, when presented with information. For example, when I'm presented with an implausible story about staring at gas gauges from a tank being used and they don't show depletion, I ask "what did you expect, some kind of alternative energy source was powering the airplane?" "Did it really come as a surprise when the engine quit?"

Think about it, these people are flying over your house and your schoolyards. We've already heard from, Captain Mike that it's damned inconvenient to lose all that gained altitude and come down, copy the ATIS, enter the traffic pattern, land and taxi to the fuel dock and all that boring stuff, to get gas. "most hate to do a let down not planned" but you can only stretch it so far"

Again, the majority of these Nitwits regard the Interstate Highway System as a network of emergency landing fields that will pull their sorry asses out of the fire, they themselves were responsible for. Never mind your babies in their carseats, that pilot has to land. He's got an Emergency! To Chuck Chambers' credit, it's obvious he tried to avoid injuries to motorists and people by aiming for the water. The last thing he should have said to Steve before touching down is "OPEN THE DOOR". After the disorientating experience of flipping over and possibly a momentary blackout, it would've been near impossible to egress in time. RIP. There was no need for this, it could've easily been avoided. When your needles go below a quarter, the fartherest you should be from the airport is downwind.

Nitwits

bajaguy - 11-26-2010 at 01:20 PM

Sidamone....Your response says it all.

I rest my case :!:

Sidamone - 11-26-2010 at 01:35 PM

Ya Basta.

Doug

BajaRob - 11-26-2010 at 01:48 PM

Time to get the hook?

Another Niwit reveals Himself

jeans - 11-26-2010 at 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaguy
Sidamone....Your response says it all.

I rest my case :!:

I am deeply saddened by this tragedy having "known" (through writings and his travel stories) of Carlos Fiesta since I first hit the Baja online scene in 1997.

When he and his beautiful family posed for that portrait on the beach, its being used for his remembrance ceremony was not in their plans, I'm sure.

I'm also saddened by yet another example of normal speculation of "What went wrong" to degenerate into name-calling by someone who insists upon blaming the victim,
without an ounce of first hand knowlege of the facts.

It will take the NTSB months months to determine the cause, yet some NObody emerges from Lurkerdom eager to show off his superior knowledge of all things aeronautical.

Please let's get back to celebrating the life of our departed Amigo and stop feeding the trolls.

Ken Bondy - 11-26-2010 at 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Ken Bondy-------why did the fuel-bladder have to be replaced? Would not re-fueling it just make it go back to it's original shape within the compartment? (apparently not, but I don't know why)

I have installed several of those "fuel bladders" in a Baron and they are pretty flexible.

Barry

Good question Barry. I had all my work done at Beechcraft West in Van Nuys. They always treated me well and I just trusted that they knew what they were doing when they told me the bladder had to be replaced. It was a long time ago but I dimly remember the mechanic telling me that the fuel cell had been damaged.

I am sorry this discussion of "what happened" degenerated into some really ugly comments from one new member, some of the most insensitive comments I have ever seen on this forum. Obviously we have some experienced pilots here and all of us are intensely interested in finding the cause of a terrible accident like this, especially since it has some very puzzling aspects. None of us, with the exception of Sidamone, was blaming anyone and in hindsight, we shouldn't have used this thread for our speculations. We should have started another thread. But that's like altitude above us and runway behind us. BTW I knew Chuck peripherally through the calendar and his loss, along with his friends, grieves me greatly.

DianaT - 11-26-2010 at 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sidamone
Ya Basta.

While some may be upset by his previous posts, I suspect that some may not be translating this correctly????

So now maybe others should not carry it on----as said before, not the proper place and time.

Edit---Ken, your post was not up when I posted and I do agree with you. But I do wonder about how some are translating the phrase, ya basta

[Edited on 11-27-2010 by DianaT]

Ken Bondy - 11-26-2010 at 05:29 PM

Diane

I thought "ya basta" meant the equivalent of "enough, already". But that would have been a pretty appropriate remark from Sidamone at that point in the thread, yet way out of context with his other posts. So I have no idea what he meant by that.

David K - 11-26-2010 at 05:56 PM

Guys, 'Carlos Fiesta' would not want any of us to be fussing like this... He was one of the happiest, nicest guys on earth... 'Party' was his last name, afterall.

DENNIS - 11-26-2010 at 06:02 PM

"Ya Basta".......... It's a New York cab driver epithet. Some pronounce it, "Ya Bastahd." :lol:

DianaT - 11-26-2010 at 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Diane

I thought "ya basta" meant the equivalent of "enough, already". But that would have been a pretty appropriate remark from Sidamone at that point in the thread, yet way out of context with his other posts. So I have no idea what he meant by that.

That is how I translate it----enough, but I guess I gave him the benefit of the doubt that he was basically saying he understood and he was done, enough. Then again, considering his previous posts, he may not have deserved the benefit of the doubt.

It was not you, but I was not sure if someone else was translating it the same way ----I thought they might be translating it a little more like Dennis.

And Dennis, I love that translation and it sure wants to read that way. :-)

When the final report is in, I do hope it helps others who like to fly and I see nothing disrespectful in you pilots discussing it, except as you said before, he was WAY out of line.

[Edited on 11-27-2010 by DianaT]

capt. mike - 11-27-2010 at 07:19 AM

"We've already heard from, Captain Mike that it's damned inconvenient to lose all that gained altitude and come down, copy the ATIS, enter the traffic pattern, land and taxi to the fuel dock and all that boring stuff, to get gas. "most hate to do a let down not planned" but you can only stretch it so far"

Perhaps i should have said "some" and not "most" -

hey Sid - yes and i meant that FOR SOME it is a thought process and inconvenient FOR THEM. I frankly don't fly that way and have a VFR personal minimum of 1 hour, or double the part 91 rule.
once i hit an hour left [time/speed/distance] , and if not in the pattern i am looking for my alternate, and likely well beforehand. I DO NOT promote caving to inconvenience or stretching ones luck in the environment of the skies, especially with 3rd parties - contrued as ANY passenger.

Today is Chuck's remembrance both at Torrance and SJ.

nobaddays - 11-27-2010 at 07:39 AM

Services link from Daily Breeze

http://www.dailybreeze.com/latestnews/ci_16718380

Saturday Update...

Juan del Rio - 11-27-2010 at 08:56 AM

My wife and I went by Carlos’s Fiesta’s house late yesterday afternoon to pick up Chuck’s widow, Leslie to go view Sean Kelly body..one of the friends’ killed last Sunday. Sean was sitting co-pilot, Russ Urban in the back seat. She originally said that she wanted to go, but on a text while we were heading to pick her up, she said that she would go later. My wife told me that there is no later and we ignored the text message and went to pick her up. When we got there, her daughter Tracy and close family friend, Todd Mirsky, where there talking. We walked in and she was surprised to see us. She said, “Oh Carole, I’ll go later”. My wife (Carole) said, “Leslie there is no later”. It was 5:00 pm and the viewing for Sean was over at 6:00 pm.
She changed her clothes and was ready to go in 10 minutes…a trait Carlos Fiesta loved. Not too much “primping” for this lady. She is so naturally beautiful inside and out. We were off. As we got in the car, she remarked that it was the first time that she had been out since Sunday. It felt good. The ocean breeze was cold, but it did feel good for sure.
We arrived at the viewing and Leslie said “this is going to be tough to do”. We walked in and you could immediately feel the love of Sean’s family…even if it was a Mortuary. It took a few minutes for Leslie to find Sean’s Widow, Laura, as there were so many of Sean’s Family and Friends. I later found out from Sean’s parents( who flew in from Florida), that he was number Six child of Eight children. Sean was 44 years old. His Mom is a “pistol” and his Dad is a solid, stand-up guy for sure. With eight offspring,you’d have to be. Sean’s Mom said he died doing what he loved to do. The place was packed.
Once Leslie found Laura, the two hugged and cried for a long time. A tragedy shared together that only each of them could comprehend. As they hugged, I walked up to view Sean. He looked good. Peaceful and content. You could tell he was already in a better place. I had heard that the bodies were muddy from the crash, but had survived without damage. All three, Sean, Russ and Chuck were organ donors and that has helped with the grief.
We left, after about an hour. Leslie told me on the way back that viewing Sean’s body helped her realize that Carlos was not playing another one of his jokes…it was real. She also said that during her embrace with Laura that Laura told her there their lives..as they knew it, would never be the same. They needed to close this chapter in their lives and start a new one. Leslie found hope with that coming from Laura and said how strong this woman is . The visit helped Leslie so much. We stopped at Von’s for some supplies and headed back to Carlos/Leslie’s place for dinner.
When we got there, the other passenger Russ Urban…his sister and brother had come by the house. Russ’ brother had flown down from Portland with his son and wife. They were so welcomed by the crowd that had gathered for the traditional “Friday Night Sunset c-cktail” at Carlos and Leslie’s place that overlooks Malaga Cove Beach. Russ’s widow Judy is still so devastated, that she has been grieving privately with family and friends. Many of Russ’s students who were students at Cornerstone School where he taught before retiring two years ago (they are now 22 years old!) were there as well. The School is planning a Celebration in his honor.
So here we are, a day before Carlos’s memorial. We’re all running around getting logistics/details pulled together. A bunch of friends and family are going to show up on the beach, in what will seem like the middle of winter tomorrow at 3:00 pm. We need to do this…there is no later.

Photo of Carlos and his wife Leslie, was taken at the Beach where the service is planned.

P1120439X.JPG - 46kB

shari - 11-27-2010 at 09:11 AM

thank you Juan for reminding us that there is no later...and for being you and organizing so much and being there for the family while you yourself are greiving...know that many of us who are not there in body are with you all in spirit and will raise a toast to these three fine men.

schwlind - 11-27-2010 at 10:54 AM

Juan, while I didn't have the opportunity to know Chuck, for some mysterious reason, I grieve as though I did...

Your updates on the family and how they are holding up is much appreciated...

So sad that it appears all three survived the crash, but ended up drowning... and as has been suggested... as mortals attempting to rationalize this seemingly senseless loss of life... for me is next to impossible to get my feeble brain around...

I honor Chuck and his lust for life... but grieve heavily for his family and friends...

Please let his wife and family know that many Nomads while celebrating his life, grieve with his family and will sorely miss his presence in our world.

Linda

BajaNomad - 11-28-2010 at 09:57 AM

Friendly reminder...

Memorial today; 3pm; Torrance Beach in front of Surfside Grill.

Also in SJ today at approx same time.

David K - 11-28-2010 at 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaNomad
Friendly reminder...

Memorial today; 3pm; Torrance Beach in front of Surfside Grill.

Also in SJ today at approx same time.

See you there Doug...

OCEANUS - 11-28-2010 at 06:41 PM

I just returned from a week in LA Bay yesterday, and like many others here I'm shocked.

I first met Carlos and Russ last fall. Albeit strangers at the time, Carlos and I had something in common; We had both taken over large projects from Marv Sherrill. Carlos had just released his first edition of the Baja Calendar, and I was running the Las Animas trip with my Dana Hills High School Marine Ecology students. Carlos had graciously agreed to continue a long-standing relationship with Dana Hills and the Baja Calendar by allowing my students to sell his calendar as a fundraiser to offset the cost of their trip to Las Animas.
Carlos delivered the calendars to my home on his way down to Baja just about this time last year. He, along with Russ, were on their way down to bring supplies to people in need. Russ and Carlos were hilarious, and Russ (a retired teacher) took to my wife and I (both teachers) to team up on Carlos in some friendly banter. After several good jab on Russ' part, we gathered a couple of bags of childrens clothes and shoes and gave them to Russ and Carlos to bring down on thei journey.
My students ended up selling well over a hundred of his calendars last year, and Carlos (true to his word) donated those funds so that they too could experience the place that he grew to love so dearly.
I am deeply saddened to hear about both Carlos, but I'm uplifted to see how many lives he positively impacted through his positive attitude, generosity, and genuine Baja spirit.
Carlos, you will be greatly missed...

marv sherrill - 11-28-2010 at 09:45 PM

just got back from dinner at jardinis and turned on the computer - Wow - I could not believe what I was reading! Carlos was a great guy, and I appreciated reading all the wonderful comments from the nomads. I had just emailed him before we left last Sunday, it's hard to believe he is gone. His spirit of adventure will live on in all of us -

David K - 11-28-2010 at 10:00 PM

We attended the memorial this afternoon... words cannot describe the wonderful affect Carlos Fiesta had on everyone he came in contact with through his years on the earth. There were hundreds of people on the beach at sundown when the service ended... A multiple flyover by vintage aircraft doing the missing man formation set the experince of importance this man had over those who attended today.

BajaNomad - 11-29-2010 at 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
There were hundreds of people on the beach at sundown when the service ended... A multiple flyover by vintage aircraft doing the missing man formation set the experince of importance this man had over those who attended today.

The recurring theme by everyone: Carlos' positive influence on all those around him - each and every day.

Here's a video showing the crowd and the missing man formation flyover:

BajaNomad - 11-29-2010 at 01:42 AM

Flyover.....

flyover-no1.jpg - 30kB

BajaNomad - 11-29-2010 at 01:46 AM

Lots of people out.... clear, sunny, but cold.

lots-of-people2.jpg - 50kB

David K - 11-29-2010 at 09:26 AM

Thank you Doug... that video came out great and the photos, too. Carlos will be missed by so many...

The last photo (I think) of all of us together was taken by Baja Angel with Juan del Rio's camera, at Mexico Expo in Feb., 2006... Thanks to Doug for finding it...

L to R: David K (VivaBaja.com), Dick Van Bree (BajaLinks.com), Carlos Fiesta (BajaExpo.com), BajaNomad (Doug of this site), Juan del Rio (JuanYJuan.com).

[Edited on 11-29-2010 by David K]

P1010835X.JPG - 40kB

taxcutter - 11-29-2010 at 11:39 AM

Like everyone, I was shocked and bummed out on the news.
If you ever met Carlos Fiesta, then you know. Carlos was super cool dude.

I figured at least 200 - 300 people showed up at the end of Torrance Beach.
The memorial/celebration was impressive.
The music was really good and the group was very silent during the fly by.
Juan Rellos story had the crowd laughing. Break out the bull horn!
I think it was the children/kids stories that pull on one's heart.
I was impressed with Juan del Rio.
At one point, some kid down the beach was flying his kite.
But the kid's kite was making noise and distracting the celebration.
Juan went right over to the kid and the kid moved down the beach.
On top of that, it just seemed Juan was the man keeping the show goin'.
Carlos' wife, Leslie is a strong woman and my heart goes out to her.

I brought my board and wetsuit and was ready for a paddle out.
Hey Carlos was a surfer, too.
They set up a long board and mini palapa with chair next to the waves.
I stashed my board next to the chair.
After the Remembrances, with no paddle out, I went back to the palapa.
I broke out a little tequila.
One shot for me, one shot for Carlos.
I downed a beer and left Carlos one beer for later.

I only met Carlos a couple of times.
But I would hear on the Cactus telegraph when Carlos would be in town or Baja. I lucky to have these memories of Carlos.

One of Carlos' mottos for life,
"Don't be sad about what you don't have, be grateful for what you do have...
That's the Fiesta Formula!"

Right on!, Carlos.
Let me know when the paddle out is, because I will be there.
M

To Sean Kelly, Russ Urban and Carlos Fiesta:

Juan del Rio - 11-29-2010 at 12:54 PM

Go fly with the Angels.

[Edited on 11-29-2010 by Juan del Rio]

[Edited on 11-29-2010 by BajaNomad]

Juan2.jpg - 46kB

Gone but never forgotten

Juan del Rio - 11-29-2010 at 12:57 PM

Visos con Dios mi Amigo.

..adding Juan's pic...

[Edited on 11-29-2010 by BajaNomad]

[Edited on 11-29-2010 by Juan del Rio]

carlos-fiesta-memorial-palapa-torrancebeach.jpg - 49kB

carlos-fiesta-memorial-palapa-torrancebeach.jpg - 49kB

schwlind - 11-29-2010 at 01:34 PM

Thanks to all who have contributed to updating us on the Torrence Memorial service...

and as Marv said... "His spirit of adventure will live on in all of us" as will his memory...

Juan... there is no doubt in my mind he is now "flying with angels".

With deep sadness,

Linda

[Edited on 11-30-2010 by schwlind]

GregN - 11-29-2010 at 02:23 PM

Looks like it was a real heartfelt tribute to one terrific guy. His enthusiasm touched the lives of many, myself included. Unable to attend, I was thinking of him all weekend.

BajaNomad - 11-29-2010 at 04:08 PM

Another pic I meant to upload - of Leslie & Tracy, Carlos' wife and daughter, taking a moment to address everyone at the memorial yesterday at Torrance Beach.

leslie-n-tracy2.jpg - 49kB

marv sherrill - 11-29-2010 at 07:04 PM

Juan del Rio -- please check your u2u - thanks

David K - 11-29-2010 at 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaNomad

Quote:

The recurring theme by everyone: Carlos' positive influence on all those around him - each and every day.

Here's a video showing the crowd and the missing man formation flyover:

That is a great video Doug... you got the missing man fly-by perfect... Very deep emotional day. We miss you Carlos Fiesta!

taxcutter - 12-1-2010 at 11:55 PM

I surfed with Russ Urban in Baja.

Russ surfed with no wetsuit
Not even a T-shirt, or something.

Yea, Russ rode a tanker, longboard.
But with old school style.
The old drop knee bit.

Maybe it was those dang trunks.
A green pair, but riding up high.
Old school, 60's surfer look.

And he would take off with no worries.
Nobody would drop in on him.

As it would be, we would talk in the line up.
The Teacher, Mr. Professor.

A couple of years later, this last summer, I see Russ at Rat Beach.
What is going on, Russ?

Russ is teaching some kids to surf, swim and the ocean.
A couple of the parents (moms) are hanging out, too.
They tell me how Russ is Number One.
Ladies, we already knew that. Russ is a Surfer.
And I go back out swimming and surfing with Russ and the kids.

I surfed with Russ Urban.
Right On.
M

bajasammy - 12-2-2010 at 10:54 AM

I had the good fortune to surf with Carlos, Russ, and Sean on their last trip - all interesting, generous, fun-loving guys. Each lived an adventure filled, charitable life to be proud of. I feel so blessed to have spent some time with them.

David K - 12-2-2010 at 05:55 PM

Thanks for sharing!

I am making some calls to help with Juan del Rio's request about getting Carlos' book published. If Chuck (Carlos) talked to any of you about his book please get in touch with me, I want to help fulfill that request. Thank you!

bryanmckenzie - 12-3-2010 at 11:27 AM

That is a beautiful post and last picture, Juan.

My belated condolences to the families of Chuck Chambers, Russell Urban, and Sean Kelly. Though we e-mailed, I never had the opportunity to meet Chuck.

I'd missed this story due to being ill and had just received an e-mail from Carlos a few weeks earlier reminding me to once again order 4 Baja calendars, which I did without knowing about this sad tale. I'm so sorry for the friends and family.

-Namaste

[Edited on 2010-12-3 by bryanmckenzie]

[Edited on 2010-12-3 by bryanmckenzie]

Report: Beechcraft Musketeer ran out of fuel

BajaNews - 12-13-2010 at 09:21 PM

http://www.dailypilot.com/news/tn-dpt-1214-plane-20101213,0,...

Investigators conclude the pilot refueled twice on his way home from Baja.

By Mike Reicher
December 13, 2010

Federal investigators found that the small plane that crashed in Newport Beach's Back Bay and killed three people in November ran out of fuel, confirming earlier speculation.

The private pilot, who was flying home from a surf trip in Baja, refueled in San Felipe and later in Calexico, a border town south of the Salton Sea, according to a preliminary report released Monday.

National Transportation Safety Board investigators talked with ground crew members and another pilot at those airports. But witnesses were unable to say how much fuel the plane had when it took off from Calexico.

"We do not know how much fuel was in that airplane," Wayne Pollack, lead investigator for the NTSB, said during an interview. "We're looking at a fuel-exhaustion scenario."

Ultimately, ounces of water were found in the in the fuel tanks, the report states. Pollack said that water could have penetrated through vents, and not necessarily through a puncture.

In Calexico, the pilot, Chuck Chambers, added 20 gallons of fuel to the tanks, which can hold 60 gallons total. The fuel lineman at the airport said he didn't know how much gas was onboard before he added some to the right wing tank. He also said fuel didn't reach the brim.

As the plane approached John Wayne Airport on Nov. 21, the night of the crash, Chambers twice told a JWA air traffic controller, "We have just run out of fuel."

Chambers had been flying for more than 30 years, his wife said. A real estate broker from Palos Verdes Estates, he was an avid surfer and traveled to Mexico often to visit friends and catch un-crowded waves. The three friends were on their way to Zamperini Field Airport in Torrance when they made the unexpected turn inland toward JWA.

The report describes an account by a Newport Beach firefighter who watched the plane pass over the fire station near Newport Center, less than a mile southeast of the crash site. He heard the plane's engine "sputter," and said it never revved back up. It flew just "three telephone poles' height" above the ground as it passed the witness, the report states.

Chambers and two other South Bay residents, Russell Urban, 63, of Rancho Palos Verdes, and Sean Kelly, 44, of Hermosa Beach, drowned in the crash, as the plane rested upside down in about three feet of water, according to a coroner's report released in November.

After the plane was extracted from a mud flat, investigators found that many of its components were in working order, including the fuel screen and the fuel tank selector.

Pollack from the NTSB said that he is still waiting on standard toxicology and autopsy results, and radar information before he completes the investigation in 2011.

Earlier this month, a firefighter told the Daily Pilot that emergency responders initially were unable to open the doors of the four-seat Beechcraft Musketeer, which was stuck nose-down in a mudflat. About 20 to 25 police and firefighters lifted the plane above ground enough to open the doors, he said. The whole process took about 30 minutes, he estimated, while the tide was rising.

Bad Weather and a Worse Miscalculation ?

MrBillM - 12-14-2010 at 12:57 PM

Since the decision was made not to Top the Tanks, but calculate what would be a sufficient total, it appears to be another unfortunate mistake with Grave consequences.

More Condolences to the Family

Gypsy Jan - 12-15-2010 at 03:33 PM

Your loss is not forgotten.

Prayers from the heart are going out to you.

David K - 12-15-2010 at 11:16 PM

There has to be something to make sense of this... Carlos was a detail guy (have you spent any time on BajaExpo.com?)... and for him to mis-judge how much fuel he needed or was available is not in his character. This flying from Mexico wasn't new to him. This was just really sad and such a great loss.

capt. mike - 12-16-2010 at 07:29 AM

"and for him to mis-judge how much fuel he needed or was available is not in his character."

maybe so - but when the NTSB and FAA look at this stuff it is in B&W under a magnifying glass.

lotsa dead pilots that had great character. But they also lacked sound judgment if only for a brief period.....

fuel management is solely the domain of the PIC [pilot-in-command] under part 91 regs. running out of gas continues to be the leading cause of PREVENTABLE light AC fatalities and sadly there is no excuse for it.

checking fuel burn in cruise against ETA and ground speed is a must for pilot in flight management, and the only functional way to objectively gauge your safety against the legal minimum reserves [30 min for VFR [visual flight rules].

when down to your minimum and not in the pattern you must land, and hopefully have figured/anticipated that contingency well beforehand.

the FAA lets you get off with 30 min fuel reserve if VFR....conservative pilots use 1 hour. all of my BBP and baja buddy pilots are in the habit of using the one hour rule too because of the paucity of airports with gas in baja and sonora, they get used to and acceept that - and do it stateside routinely.

sadly "get-home-itis" can interfere with sound judgment.

Carlos was a great guy, and is sorely missed. He had great character. for whatever reason there was a lapse in judgment which created tragedy for 3 lives.

other active pilots here may weigh in or think it differently.
this is my opinion.

[Edited on 12-16-2010 by capt. mike]

Ken Bondy - 12-16-2010 at 07:50 AM

Everything mike said is right on, but I still think fuel lost in flight through a faulty seal in a fuel tank cap remains a possible explanation. The NTSB should be able to determine that. The collapsing fuel cell caused by an increasing vacuum can jam the fuel gauge sensors and give a misleading reading, leading the pilot to think he/she has more fuel than is actually there. It happened to me.

capt. mike - 12-16-2010 at 08:24 AM

yes Ken yur right, i sure would prefer when the final report comes in - BTW - avg time req'd on the full findings is 2 years! that it was a mech defect or problem - what bothers me is preliminarily they estimate he was in flight for 3.5 hours or more for a 100 minute flight giving credence to the severe headwinds and turbulence both low coastal route and the direct one over Julian VOR.

based on his GS vs TAS he was lucky to get chevrolet speed over mother earth.

one of my non flying friends who is frequently a willing pax with me says when birds aren't flying - he's not flying.
growing up in the cold mid west Kansas farm regions i can identify with that observation!

Ken Bondy - 12-16-2010 at 08:36 AM

mike the winds aloft for that route and that time should be available, right? Does the FAA keep that kind of information?

Ken Bondy - 12-16-2010 at 08:43 AM

Wow, 3.5 hours for less than 190 nm, that's about 54 knots on the ground. TAS should have been about 100 knots. You're right, you can drive it faster than that. Regardless of what the gages said, he must have known he wasn't making much progress. VERY puzzling why he pressed on. Maybe some get-home-itis.

[Edited on 12-16-2010 by Ken Bondy]

LancairDriver - 12-16-2010 at 10:57 AM

The final report, when it comes out, will include wind conditions encountered, re-fueling information, including San Filipe as well as Calexico, and all mechanical information concerning the aircraft, which appeared to be in relatively good condition when recovered.
The information, if correct, that the rescuers had to pry the doors open was disturbing, as the door or doors should have been cracked open before ditching.Seems all aboard were surfers, not unfamiliar with being in the water and may have been able to exit if a door had been open even under the dis-orienting inverted conditions.

Ditching Procedure ?

MrBillM - 12-16-2010 at 11:49 AM

While I haven't read Everything relating to the accident, IS there any substantial indications or evidence that the Pilot INTENDED ditching or simply Stalled in while trying to stay aloft as long as possible ?

In any case, even the VERY Best pilots make mistakes.

One of my great boyhood idols, Scott Crossfield, died when he decided to not detour around a severe Thunderstorm that he was warned against attempting to transit. He (and the Cessna) came out in little pieces.

Of Course, he was 85, but there wasn't any indication that age was a factor. Perhaps Arrogance ?

capt. mike - 12-17-2010 at 06:41 AM

once the windmill stopped he was gliding, i doubt he would have let his airspeed bleed off to the point of a wing stall.
and if so he would have spun 1st and gone in nose at 90 degrees crushing the cabin with attendant trauma.
given that it was well past sundown and getting dark - he was looking for a street between bldgs and trees likely, and with nothing else suitable picked the bay as an alternate spot for less chance of conflict with cars or structure.
would have been my choice too - water more forgiving that concrete or steel.

tailwheel [conventional] landing gear or fixed gear AC will flip over onto the back once they hit the water. this causes disorientation; but there are training facilities which teach it using a hardware rig on slides set up at swimming pools, and with diver support.
you ride it and flip in your seat - practice it over and over till you are completely comfortable with the procedure and can do it bindfolded even.
the contracption can be practiced by riders also in pax seats.
one of my friends has a C 180 and has taken the 2 day course - says it is well worth it as he crosses the SOC regularly.

Ken Bondy - 12-17-2010 at 08:47 AM

mike I didn't know they had a course in training for a ditching, what a good idea. I have a lot of 182 time in Baja and thought about it often. I also have a friend who survived a fixed-gear ditching at the north end of La Paz bay, abeam that "Grand Canyon" mountain area that goes right to the shore. There are so many unanswered questions here, what a tragedy. The Daily Pilot report says the airplane was in THREE FEET of water. Seems to me that would have left a lot of airspace around their feet. Quien sabe??

capt. mike - 12-17-2010 at 10:11 AM

yeah, getting unbelted would have been key. i don't know if he had shoulder harnesses but based on plane vintage i think not as they were not yet required - i added them under STC for my 1961 model year which prevents forward contact with the yoke/front/panel in a sudden deceleration.
often with only lap belts the occupant survives the hard stop only to be knocked out or have severe head and chest trauma due to lack of shoulder restraints.
appears Carlos did get unbelted 1st and may even have called for "brace" before impact. with low light conditions judging ht above water before the strike point would have been very hard to do too.

the ditching training is california based assuming they are still doing it - many av related businesses have been forced to close since this economical mess started 2006/2007.
i found them on a link at one iof the survival products websites i think back when i got my 1st raft.

Aviation training

bajaguy - 12-17-2010 at 10:32 AM

Check with your nearest Civil Air Patrol unit and see if they are offering any training. I know in Nevada we do "Mountain Fury" several times a year.....great stuff if you fly near or over any mountain areas

Skeet/Loreto - 12-17-2010 at 11:42 AM

Gentlemen and Scholars and you to Capt. Mike.

All of the comments are well taken and very natrual after an accident involving someone you may know,.
The pilots who have Posted have some very good "ideas" of the cause of this Accident. And there are several Possibilities.
Years ago i was involved in the Investigation of Several Beechcraft Accidents. Investigators all over the Country were trying to figure out Accidents involving mostly approach Accidents in the older. Units.

Finally it was discoverd! When Switching the Fuel Slector Value prior to landing it was discovered that on some units the small Detent Ball was failing to Switch and let the Fuel flow from the Tank.

With this Accident the cause of course goes to Fuel as the piloted reported he was "Low, or Out of fuel"

The several reasons and possibilty or the cause of the loss of Fuel will probably be dertimined if there is a "Mechanical Malfunction: discovered,
if no Mechanical is determined, then the true cause may never be known.

Then if we can go further, there is the Mental Cause of Accidents such as the famous Investigation of the so-called "Doctor Killer' Beechcraft.

So set back relax and try not to place Blame until all the Facts are in and Checked.

Skeet

Natalie Ann - 12-17-2010 at 12:29 PM

Hi Skeet... I'm thinking that perhaps your puzzle should be posted as a thread of its own. To discuss that in this thread implies disrespect for the deceased... and I am certain that you do not mean any disrespect.

You 'n Virginia have a peaceful and pleasant holiday, amigo.

nena

Skeet/Loreto - 12-17-2010 at 12:33 PM

OK Nat: I really thought it might take some pressure off all the talk about What happened to Carlos. Sorry I had good intention. Will start a new Thread.

Skeet

The Doctor-Killer ?

MrBillM - 12-17-2010 at 12:58 PM

NO.

Catch up with the Times, Skeeter.

It was NOT a "Fork-Tailed Devil".

Barry A. - 12-17-2010 at 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
NO.

Catch up with the Times, Skeeter.

It was NOT a "Fork-Tailed Devil".

If you guys are talking about the "V-tail" Bonanzas-----I flew them for years and I always thought them incredibly tough, but kinda squirrly, and I was not that fond of them. We had many of them for rentals at JIM'S AIR in San Diego, and people DID love them.

Barry

Skeet/Loreto - 12-17-2010 at 01:18 PM

There was so many of them being bought and flown and crashed that it got the Name of being a "Doctor Killer".

Many Investigations were made and it was finally concluded that it was "A Doctors training that cause many of the accidents.; doctors were being trained that Once they made a decesion to stick to that decesion. It made them think that they could do no Wrong.

If you are not able to make a change while flying in a Aircraft you are in Big Trouble.

I have about 500 hours in a "Forked-Tail Devil"' Good Airplane and the Fastest when you slighly drop the Nose!!!

Skeet

Barry A. - 12-17-2010 at 01:39 PM

Yep, put a Bonanza on "the step" and away you went. Very efficient airplane, and pretty fast-------but they were always wagging their tail until you got really used to them. I had under 100 hours in them, so probably never fully got "used to them". Preferred the Cessna 182 or 205----both workhorses.

Barry

LancairDriver - 12-17-2010 at 03:17 PM

Better check the AD history of the "V" tail Bonanza if you think they were a tough airplane. The older ones were grounded for a structural weakness in the tail. Too many were pulling the tails off of them. FAA had a speed limit not to exceed put on them until a reinforcement mod. was installed.
The owner of the Nut Tree Restaurant in Northern Cal. was killed going into Bay of LA and going downhill too fast in rough air and pulled the tail off and scattered the airplane for several miles in the late seventies.
Skeet must remember that one.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-17-2010 at 04:19 PM

Yes: It was the Powers Family.

And on the other Hand I had one that landed at Bishop one day for me to check for damages. he had come over the pass West of Reno and hit tought Winds. The upper part of both Wing Sections were Wrinkled. I took pictures and the guy took off to go to his Destination.

Most of the Ruddervator seperations were on the early ones, cause was corrected and later ones did not have near the trouble.

The Doctors were the only ones who could afford the Expensive Beechs so that is why the more Accidents in that particulaar Aircraft.
Where people got into trouble was when they lowered the Nose and did not compensate for the increase in speed so fast.

I was always a Tail-Dragger Pilot and to this day I prefer a Tail Dragger. espwecially a Pa -18 or what is known as the Super Cub. the 180 for long trips and my old Trusty 170 B.

Oh! those were the days!!

LancirDriver. I had just talked to the Pilot and had told him to watch when he amde a descent into the Bay of La. We talked about Windshear and downdrafts. I was investigating a Twin Cessna which had overrun the runway. I had to pull it back on the runway with a Cable and Tractor

Later ones were good Airplanes..

Skeet/Loreto - 12-17-2010 at 04:31 PM

One more quick One!

This young Pilot with only 75 Hours Flying time Departed Troutdale Ore. Airport with his Girlfriend to take her on a sighseeing tour of Mt. Hood.
On arriving at Mt. Hood there was a layer of clouds near the top which the pilot went into. Shortly thereafter he said that he looked backward and observed the "Ruddervator" come off the Aircarft, The Aircraft then inverted and started Spinning downward where right before it hit the Engine came off the Aircraft, then the Aircarft landed upside down in a Tree!!!! The only Injury was when he unbuckled the seatbelt of his Passenger and she hit her head on the Dash. The Accident had occurred near a logging road so the pilot walked out for Help.

I took this statement from the pilot about two days after the accident. Hard to Beleive!!
This was one of the older Beechcrafts.
For Non-beleivers they can check NTSB reports.

Skeet

Skeet Shots

MrBillM - 12-17-2010 at 07:22 PM

Memories aside, since the plane involved was not a V-Tail Bonanza, the "Doctor-Killer" speculation was immaterial.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-17-2010 at 07:46 PM

Mr. Bill You do not understand what is being talked about.

Most of the Aircraft in the Doctors Deal were Beechcraft. Not all but Most.
It became talk in the Aviation community and just started id with the Beechcraft and the Doctors. Nothing More

There is a Ton of Information that I am sure you can find if you are truly interested in Facts.

Skeetering Dementia

MrBillM - 12-18-2010 at 11:26 AM

OK, Skeet. PROVE that you KNOW what you're talking about. Reach into the recesses and reference documented links which refer to OTHER specific Aircraft as the "Doctor-Killer". You indicate that you have such vast references. I've only heard the term (or the alternate "V-tailed Doctor Killer") used in reference to the V-tailed 35.

Put UP !

Skeet/Loreto - 12-18-2010 at 12:01 PM

O>K.

You are correct in your reference to "V-Tailed Doctor Killers and most of the Attention was directed toweard the Beech as most of the accidents were in "V-Tails
"'
However folowing the Theme that it was not the Aircraft but the Mindset of the Doctors causing the accidents other planes were looked at more closely.

My persoanl Investigations of other Doctor-Killer" Accidents:

Cessna 210 on Approach to Lake Tahoe Airport
Piper Commanche on Approach to Lodi Airp[ort

Cessna 205 west of Van Nuys Airport.

And there are others. And many of the Current reports were investigated by the NtSB not the FAA which did all of the Investigations{If they got around too it}
Many of the complete Investigations were done by the Insurance Investigators and their results never known to the Authorties..

It was a dfifferent time , a different world,

I am sure that "What you heard" was from some of those Pilots that resented V-Tail Beechcraft, somewhat like us Tail- Dragger Pilots.

Relax and enjoy Life Mr. Bill.

Skeet

OH, I See

MrBillM - 12-18-2010 at 02:35 PM

The "Authoritative References" that Skeet cites are inside HIS head.

Well, that settles it.

After all, by his own description, he has to be the most experienced authority since, well, Creation, I guess. Whatever it is, he's been there, done that. Whatever anybody else has done, he can top it. A legend in his own aged mind. Investigator Extraordinaire . The inspiration for James West, if not Artemus Gordon. The James Bond of Bakersfield.

Actually, he MAY have been the Secret Agent hired by U.S. Grant.

Reminds me of a group of guys sitting around topping each other in Baja which a friend once described as "First Liar doesn't stand a chance".

Tell us what REALLY happened in the Black Dahlia case. We KNOW you were there, Skeet. Incognito, of course.

Barry A. - 12-18-2010 at 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
NO.

Catch up with the Times, Skeeter.

It was NOT a "Fork-Tailed Devil".

Mr. Bill------I don't believe that Skeet ever claimed that it WAS a "V-tail" in that accident------he was just giving us the benefit of past experience with them, it seemed to me, and speculating. (like several of us are).

You are being pretty grouchy today, and insulting, for reasons beyond my comprehension.

What's the point??

Barry

Skeet/Loreto - 12-18-2010 at 03:14 PM

Very True Barry.

There may always be a Doubt in many peoples Mind about the very Exact cause of the Accident,

Yes it does seem to me that Mr. Bowell Movement is on the "Rag" Today. Maybe that he didn"t get his Wheaties this Moring.

Oh! well we must put up with those of "lessor Genes".

Skeet

OHH Good Grief!

Gypsy Jan - 12-18-2010 at 05:06 PM

I can't stop thinking about the fact that three healthy, well-conditionend men DROWNED UPSIDE DOWN IN THREE FEET OF WATER.

I am angry about the loss of the lives of these good people.

[Edited on 12-19-2010 by Gypsy Jan]

[Edited on 12-19-2010 by Gypsy Jan]

[Edited on 12-19-2010 by Gypsy Jan]

LancairDriver - 12-18-2010 at 05:17 PM

Mr. Bill------I don't believe that Skeet ever claimed that it WAS a "V-tail" in that accident-

I agree Barry- Skeet never referred to the Musketeer in the accident as a "V" tail. The thread got sidetracked a little in the speculating going on, as it always does when pilots try to make sense of an accident, and it appears Bill didn't keep up.

Sidamone - 12-18-2010 at 06:56 PM

As an early participant in this interminable kerfuffle, I reflect on the early days when Wilbur and Orville were my two combative students who constantly argued over which would solo first. Back then we didn't even foresee the need for accident investigators, only much later when RanDom cApitalIzation became fashionable, did the field really "takeoff".

Keeping Up !

MrBillM - 12-18-2010 at 08:27 PM

Yeah, it's tough to do with these "Lesser Genes", but TSMF.

My point WAS that, since the Aircraft wasn't a V-Tail, Skeeter's "Doctor Killer" musing was irrelevant.

On a Positive note , Hopefully Skeet won't have to tolerate it much longer.

A Day to look forward to.

toneart - 12-18-2010 at 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sidamone
As an early participant in this interminable kerfuffle, I reflect on the early days when Wilbur and Orville were my two combative students who constantly argued over which would solo first. Back then we didn't even foresee the need for accident investigators, only much later when RanDom cApitalIzation became fashionable, did the field really "takeoff".

This could be a tad over most of their heads but ol' Skeet does provide amusement for those with a sense of humor. You get it though, because he is in the same time machine as you. :wow:

Skeet/Loreto - 12-19-2010 at 08:45 AM

I will try to bring out some things that might be involved inthis accident!

There was a report that there was three feet of wter over Mud where the Aircraft Hit. This type of sudden Stoppage more than likely caused the occupants to be rendered unconcioua. Then the intake of Water would drown them.
Also the doors may have been crunched enough not to allow them to Physically get out.

Mr. Bowell Movement; Bring it On!!. There is one thing I learned early in Life, Learned it from a couple of times in an Aircraft. Do not be a Scared of anything.
I will be 80 in May and am looking forward to another 20.

Tell your MOMMA to give you some more Wheaties next time. Put in a little more Sugar to help your Attitude.

Skeet

capt. mike - 12-19-2010 at 09:27 AM

....this is pretty good ping pong.
knowing Carlos as i did and given his sense of humor.... i gotta think someplace far better than here..and in a different PLANE of existence... he is having a good laugh on this. :lol:

RIP Chuck we'll see you in the hangar for post flying tails and tales when we all meet up again!

David K - 12-19-2010 at 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
....this is pretty good ping pong.
knowing Carlos as i did and given his sense of humor.... i gotta think someplace far better than here..and in a different PLANE of existence... he is having a good laugh on this. :lol:

RIP Chuck we'll see you in the hangar for post flying tails and tales when we all meet up again!

Thanks Mike...

As a reminder, the 2011 Baja Calendar that Carlos was going to produce upon his return from Baja last month is being completed by Marv Sherrill and profits will go to Carlos's wife and daughter... It is at the printers now, so please send in your order... http://www.bajacalendar.com and let what Carlos started be fulfilled!

Bringing it ON !

MrBillM - 12-19-2010 at 01:10 PM

Well, I just DID !

AND, it was quite satisfactory.

The Bowel Movement, that is. Firm Consistency and Obama-Shaded.

I "Should" know better than to argue with a Bakersfield Texas Ranger who "worked" his way through the Depression.

As a Child, even.

Before becoming the Chief Investigator for innumerable State Agencies and leading a Life filled with astonishing and (almost) unbelievable variety wherein more significant events in history have been focused on him than anyone ever before.

I've found it quite amazing over the years how Many people I have met in Baja who have influenced U.S. and World History to extents not seemed possible, but Skeeter is clearly Head and Shoulders above ALL of them (Combined ?). A true Legend in his own mind, if not others.

WHAT was I thinking ?

Bowel Movement aka "An Burro" (Thanks Barry) signing off for now.

Until the NEXT Bowel Movement.

Maybe Today, maybe not. Those things don't necessarily follow a schedule.

GFYS.

[Edited on 12-19-2010 by MrBillM]

Skeet/Loreto - 12-19-2010 at 01:33 PM

Merry Christmas Mr. BillM!

It is hoped with reverance that you and Yourins will have a good Season of Joy and Rapture.

Skeet

Santiago - 12-19-2010 at 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
On a Positive note , Hopefully Skeet won't have to tolerate it much longer.
A Day to look forward to.

Bill: are you not feeling well? Anything we should know? And why are you looking forward to it? Were you the anonymous buyer? It would be right down your alley.

Aren't We ALL ?

MrBillM - 12-19-2010 at 04:07 PM

Looking Forward to the day of Rapture Arriving ?

Skeeter is.

Personally, I've got some issues with the Day of Judgment part of it. I "May" have a few problems that need negotiating. I "Hope" there's Arbitration.

Better to be greeted by a Rapture than a Raptor, Though.

I Think.

capt. mike - 12-20-2010 at 05:32 PM

yes DK we will have a Carlos calendar - thx for keeping that in the fore front.

I know and have met Skeet and he is "good honest people!"
and always means well.

Bill i haven't met you but i like your no BS style and we share much in spirit - i think you me and ol' skeeter just need to sit with some beer and pretzels and we'll all have a good time!
merry Christmas ya'all!!

David K - 12-20-2010 at 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
yes DK we will have a Carlos calendar - thx for keeping that in the fore front.

I know and have met Skeet and he is "good honest people!"
and always means well.

Bill i haven't met you but i like your no BS style and we share much in spirit - i think you me and ol' skeeter just need to sit with some beer and pretzels and we'll all have a good time!
merry Christmas ya'all!!

Your welcome Mike... and I agree with you other comment as well... I think you and I met Skeet the same day back in 2003 at Keri's first book signing? I haven't met MrBillM, but anyone who picks a place that has a view of Shell Island can't be all bad! :light:

BajaNomad - 12-20-2010 at 08:49 PM

http://pilotparamedic.com/?p=575

David K - 12-20-2010 at 11:11 PM

Thanks Doug... do you know when the photo was taken?

capt. mike - 12-21-2010 at 07:03 AM

someone's wearing one of my t shirts - ?? who are you? i don't recognize the person.

was that pix taken at juan j juan's?

BajaNomad - 12-21-2010 at 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Thanks Doug... do you know when the photo was taken?

It was from their trip last month (Carlos on left, Sean Kelley in the middle). Follow the link under the picture to see more photos from the trip.

bajasammy - 12-21-2010 at 07:22 AM

Hi Capt. Mike!

That's my Dad wearing your T-Shirt. I bought it for him last year and he wears it all the time! He no longer flys, but once a pilot, always a pilot!!!

We were down at JuanYJuans for the Baja 1000 along with Carlos, Sean, and Russ - and had such a wonderful time with them! We're so very sad to lose such quality gentlemen, but at least know for sure they're in a better place.

Our deepest condolences to their loved ones.

[Edited on 12-21-2010 by bajasammy]

capt. mike - 12-21-2010 at 04:38 PM

well tell him i said hey and he looks good in it!

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