BajaNomad

About Differentials and Traction Control

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TMW - 4-16-2012 at 07:36 PM

I'm not against the new technology, I think it is much safer. But I hate the ABS system off road. At least on my GMC I can pull the fuse. I've never tried to pull the Tacoma fuse but then again it is not as sensitive as the GMC either so I live with it.

durrelllrobert - 4-17-2012 at 08:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by durrelllrobert
Doesn't anyone have a possible answer to why my Yukon gets better mileage with the traction control turned off? If you think I'm fullasheet I will accept that too.

Oh, I forgot to mention that my ABS is also disabled. I had to remove the fuse because the hydraulic pump would not shut off and was running the battery down even with the key removed from the ignition. Since I couldn't just buy a new circuit board and the new pump assembly costs over $500 I decided to just go old school with normal braking.

David K - 4-17-2012 at 09:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Ken Cooke
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
and in the sand washes, fish tailing around (good fun), the VSC was doing the beep-beep beep... like it was telling me (as in HAL in 2001 A Space Odyssey): "What are you doing Dave?", "Perhaps you should re-think your driving style Dave?" :lol:


Sorry, but that would just drive me crazy. Don't the TTORA guys have a bypass for that? Perhaps a fuse which can be pulled out in order to avoid this noise?


They are not loud beeps, more of background beeps... Your music would drowned them out! Yes, I am sure there are mods for the beeper, if you still wanted the traction control on. Like I said, you can turn off the traction control... but you may need to deflate your tires to keep from getting stuck without it! :light:

mtgoat666 - 4-17-2012 at 09:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by durrelllrobert
Quote:
Originally posted by durrelllrobert
Doesn't anyone have a possible answer to why my Yukon gets better mileage with the traction control turned off? If you think I'm fullasheet I will accept that too.

Oh, I forgot to mention that my ABS is also disabled. I had to remove the fuse because the hydraulic pump would not shut off and was running the battery down even with the key removed from the ignition. Since I couldn't just buy a new circuit board and the new pump assembly costs over $500 I decided to just go old school with normal braking.


traction control on/off should not make a measureable difference in mileage on a hwy trip.

driving on paved roads w/ ABS disabled seems foolish. ABS really helps on pavement, you are avoiding a minor repair bill but dramatically reducing your cars braking performance. really seems penny wise and pound foolish.

if your abs and traction control are both malfunctioning, sounds like you should take your car in for service. probably a few more things on verge of malfunctioning too :lol::lol:

Ken Cooke - 4-17-2012 at 06:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666

if your abs and traction control are both malfunctioning, sounds like you should take your car in for service. probably a few more things on verge of malfunctioning too :lol::lol:


But, we are not talking about cars, we are talking about 4WD vehicles that are driven off-pavement!:yes:

TMW - 4-20-2012 at 07:22 AM

Bob the GMC tech wanted to know if all the tires on your Yukon are the same size. Also if the tread is the same depth. He suggested marking each tire and move it for one complete revolution and make sure all the tires are less than 1 inch in circumference. He thinks there may be an issue with the transfer case.

J.P. - 4-20-2012 at 09:36 AM

Quote:
Oh, I forgot to mention that my ABS is also disabled. I had to remove the fuse because the hydraulic pump would not shut off and was running the battery down even with the key removed from the ignition. Since I couldn't just buy a new circuit board and the new pump assembly costs over $500 I decided to just go old school with normal braking.







Any thing that creates friction, traction control, abs, awd. , could have a negitave efect on your milage.

[Edited on 4-20-2012 by J.P.]

[Edited on 4-20-2012 by J.P.]

David K - 4-20-2012 at 10:42 AM

Anytime something moves, there's friction... so driving alone has a negative outcome on mileage! Don't drive and save more gas!;D

Technology in automotive engineering is centered on two issues: Safety and Performance... Traction Control helps performance and Stability Control helps safety... If you throw fuel mileage into the mix, I think one or both can suffer...

Naturally, if your tires are spinning from loss of traction, that doesn't help gas mileage... so, traction control can be good for mileage. Try it both ways... turn your traction control off for awhile and compare that to normal mode driving.

In a Toyota, one stops the vehicle and holds down the VSC switch (vehicle with wavey lines below it button) for a few seconds to turn it off. Repeat each time vehicle is restarted.

VSC (Vehicle Stability Control) will come back on if it senses you are about to be in a spin out. It makes an empty pickup drive like a normal car when turning fast, that previously would cause the back end to spin out.

J.P. - 4-20-2012 at 11:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Anytime something moves, there's friction... so driving alone has a negative outcome on mileage! Don't drive and save more gas!;D

Technology in automotive engineering is centered on two issues: Safety and Performance... Traction Control helps performance and Stability Control helps safety... If you throw fuel mileage into the mix, I think one or both can suffer...

Naturally, if your tires are spinning from loss of traction, that doesn't help gas mileage... so, traction control can be good for mileage. Try it both ways... turn your traction control off for awhile and compare that to normal mode driving.

In a Toyota, one stops the vehicle and holds down the VSC switch (vehicle with wavey lines below it button) for a few seconds to turn it off. Repeat each time vehicle is restarted.

VSC (Vehicle Stability Control) will come back on if it senses you are about to be in a spin out. It makes an empty pickup drive like a normal car when turning fast, that previously would cause the back end to spin out.







You are some what right. It all depends on what the individual operating the vehicle is looking for in performance thats why all those devices are avalible I guess it really boils down to what ones expectations are doesnt it. I personaly learned to drive in a very basic vehicle where you had to depend on driving skills in the remote Panhandle of Texas it was like The Baja you had to rely on your skills as most of the time there was no help around when you got in trouble. I think part of the trouble today people depend too much on gadgets to get themselfs out of trouble,rather than good driving skill's

wessongroup - 4-20-2012 at 11:50 AM

Ditto's... it does add to it ....

Ateo - 4-20-2012 at 02:10 PM

Quote:
We were with BajaRob and Connie, trying to find some fossil beds south of San Felipe in my new Tacoma... and in the sand washes, fish tailing around (good fun), the VSC was doing the beep-beep beep... like it was telling me (as in HAL in 2001 A Space Odyssey): "What are you doing Dave?", "Perhaps you should re-think your driving style Dave?" :lol:


:lol::lol:

That made me chuckle. Nice 2001 reference....

David K - 4-20-2012 at 02:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by J.P.
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Anytime something moves, there's friction... so driving alone has a negative outcome on mileage! Don't drive and save more gas!;D

Technology in automotive engineering is centered on two issues: Safety and Performance... Traction Control helps performance and Stability Control helps safety... If you throw fuel mileage into the mix, I think one or both can suffer...

Naturally, if your tires are spinning from loss of traction, that doesn't help gas mileage... so, traction control can be good for mileage. Try it both ways... turn your traction control off for awhile and compare that to normal mode driving.

In a Toyota, one stops the vehicle and holds down the VSC switch (vehicle with wavey lines below it button) for a few seconds to turn it off. Repeat each time vehicle is restarted.

VSC (Vehicle Stability Control) will come back on if it senses you are about to be in a spin out. It makes an empty pickup drive like a normal car when turning fast, that previously would cause the back end to spin out.







You are some what right. It all depends on what the individual operating the vehicle is looking for in performance thats why all those devices are avalible I guess it really boils down to what ones expectations are doesnt it. I personaly learned to drive in a very basic vehicle where you had to depend on driving skills in the remote Panhandle of Texas it was like The Baja you had to rely on your skills as most of the time there was no help around when you got in trouble. I think part of the trouble today people depend too much on gadgets to get themselfs out of trouble,rather than good driving skill's


Agree! :cool:

It is fun watching city folks take their new Jeeps or other 4x4s (with lockers, etc.) and go out somewhere and either park and walk over a 'scary' place, or get stuck when it was totally avoidable! :light:

mtgoat666 - 4-20-2012 at 02:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
It is fun watching city folks take their new Jeeps or other 4x4s (with lockers, etc.) and go out somewhere and either park and walk over a 'scary' place, or get stuck when it was totally avoidable!


why is that fun?

David K - 4-20-2012 at 02:27 PM

Maybe 'funny' would be a better word... and I am talking about seeing this in person or in pictures, on You Tube, etc. The point is driving skill is still king... not traction devices, as J.P. said.

mtgoat666 - 4-20-2012 at 02:31 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Maybe 'funny' would be a better word...


no, probably not.

ATRAC and (Rubicon) LOCKERS Demonstrated

Ken Cooke - 5-4-2012 at 11:07 PM

Ken Cooke - 5-4-2012 at 11:11 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666

why is that fun?


Both 'Fun' and 'Funny':light:

David K - 5-5-2012 at 10:13 AM

There are many better You Tubes out there on Toyotas Ken... The first one when it first shows an FJ, at Minute 3:13, there is no A-TRAC (not all FJs have A-TRAC, like not all Wranglers have lockers)... You see the front tire spinning freely, and that means no Active Traction Control. A-TRAC when on, matches tire rotation across the axle, same as a locked differential.







With just one front tire (and no rear tires) with traction, A-TRAC can pull you free... as could a front locker...



A-TRAC is like automatic lockers... it does allow some spin to permit easy steering and check traction... no need to turn it on or off as the road condition changes, just leave it on... and it will work anytime you loose traction on any tire.

Baja12valve - 5-5-2012 at 11:06 AM

I watch these videos and I see that A-Trac is just another name for a limited slip. If I lift 3 wheels of my truck and rest the axles on large platforms of wood, not just some post, but a platform, my remaining wheel will burn rubber on the pavement, pulling the truck off. If I lay into it on pavement, I leave 2 rubber marks, if 4wd, I leave 4 rubber marks. If I have one wheel on sand, one on pavement, both will get power. What is the difference?

J.P. - 5-5-2012 at 12:02 PM

I had a 1998 Subaru A.W.D. that basicly had the same thing as A Trac the computer locked the spinning wheel and powered the other three it was a built in function and most of the time you were not aware of the changes. I almost totaled it out once when I hit a patch of black ice. There is no traction device that I know of that works when that happens Just hang on for the ride.

Ken Cooke - 5-5-2012 at 12:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
A-TRAC when on, matches tire rotation across the axle, same as a locked differential.


Only difference, a locking differential does not control wheelspin like A-TRAC. I prefer having a locking differential on-demand, and a limited slip unit in both differentials 100% of the time.





Had my Rubicon only been equipped with A-TRAC, I would not be attempting this tricky hillclimb.:!:


[Edited on 5-5-2012 by Ken Cooke]

David K - 5-5-2012 at 12:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Baja12valve
I watch these videos and I see that A-Trac is just another name for a limited slip. If I lift 3 wheels of my truck and rest the axles on large platforms of wood, not just some post, but a platform, my remaining wheel will burn rubber on the pavement, pulling the truck off. If I lay into it on pavement, I leave 2 rubber marks, if 4wd, I leave 4 rubber marks. If I have one wheel on sand, one on pavement, both will get power. What is the difference?


Limited slip is just that limits the amount of slip, but is not 100%. A-TRAC is nearly non-slip... Lockers are 100% true, but A-TRAC is the next best thing... it is what Toyota has (at no extra charge for the Off Road models).

Baja12valve - 5-5-2012 at 12:49 PM

Limited slip is also controlled by the clutch arrangement. You can be aggressive or not there can be a huge difference. If I can get one (if the rest of the truck is on blocks) two or all four to burn rubber on pavement, sort of hard to beat that, except with lockers. When I see the A-trac video with the truck on rollers, I know I can do the same thing. Same same.

4x4abc - 5-5-2012 at 03:22 PM

just curious - could any of you describe the difference between limited slip and A-Trac?

Baja12valve - 5-5-2012 at 03:41 PM

Yes. It has been hashed out over and over on this forum, along with opens and locking.

David K - 5-5-2012 at 05:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 4x4abc
just curious - could any of you describe the difference between limited slip and A-Trac?


A-TRAC matches tire rotation across the axle... Limited Slip slows the spin of the non-traction tire so SOME of the power normally lost is shared with the traction tire.

A reason A-TRAC isn't the same as lockers is that there is a momentary release or slight slip which is what allows it permit unrestricted steering control and also ensures the brakes are not needlessly applied. So, yes A-TRAC is a limited slip... but one on steroids and is used when other vehicles would use lockers while in low range. Otherwise, in high range, the truck uses TRAC limited slip and really improves the ability over my pre TRAC '05 Tacoma with only open differentials.

The A-TRAC system needs a hydraulic brake booster but the TRAC limited slip system works off the standard vacuum break booster. Only the Off Road TRDs with A-TRAC have the hydraulic booster, all other Toyotas use a vacuum booster.

David K - 5-5-2012 at 05:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Baja12valve
Limited slip is also controlled by the clutch arrangement. You can be aggressive or not there can be a huge difference. If I can get one (if the rest of the truck is on blocks) two or all four to burn rubber on pavement, sort of hard to beat that, except with lockers. When I see the A-trac video with the truck on rollers, I know I can do the same thing. Same same.


It would be interesting to see limited slip tires on three rollers and one tire on the ground, blocked. I know the A-TRAC can pull my truck over any problem the body will clear... and am not so sure that TRAC will, but maybe?

Ken Cooke - 5-5-2012 at 05:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 4x4abc
just curious - could any of you describe the difference between limited slip and A-Trac?


Class is in session!:light:

Baja12valve - 5-5-2012 at 08:44 PM

I would be glad to put my truck on rollers with one wheel blocked. I know it would pull itself over.

David K - 5-5-2012 at 10:19 PM

Ken, you do understand that the Hawaiian video you posted showing the Rubicons and FJ Cruiser with its front tire in the air, spinning, did not have A-TRAC.... or it wasn't turned on, if it did have it... It also didn't appear to even have TRAC on (limited slip)... Like my 2005 Tacoma in low range, there was no traction control on the front tires.

[Edited on 5-6-2012 by David K]

Ken Cooke - 5-5-2012 at 10:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Like my 2005 Tacoma in low range, there was no traction control on the front tires.


I guess that is why some Toyota owners did this "A-Trac Hack" job to their vehicles.


If I owned a Toyota, you bet I would "Hack" my A-Trac in order to use it in low-speed situations. :light:

David K - 5-6-2012 at 11:14 AM

Ken, the A-TRAC hack is for Tacomas that DON'T have A-TRAC... What the 'hack' or '4-low trac mod' does is fool the computer into thinking the vehicle is in high range when it is in low range.

All (late model) Toyotas have TRAC (limited slip) in H2 and H4, but no traction control in L4 (unless you get the Off Road package... and then you get an even stronger system, A-TRAC).

So, for the non-Off Road 4WDs, they do the 4-low trac mod (you cut a yellow wire or put a switch in it) and it makes the limited slip work in low range and that greatly improves traction. We with the Off Road package have A-TRAC which is better than TRAC and pretty much as good as lockers front and rear... Only Toyotas with a hydraulic brake booster can have A-TRAC, so for the others, TRAC is all they can get, but it is still better than just having open differentials in low range.

I don't know why Toyota doesn't just make TRAC work in L4, but maybe it is an incentive to buy the Off Road package so one can have A-TRAC and a rear locker?

"If I owned a Toyota, you bet I would "Hack" my A-Trac in order to use it in low-speed situations." Ken, A-TRAC works in low speed situations, and only in low range... If I can drive faster than 20 mph, I am not in low range. In fact, because TRAC works so well in high range, I rarely need low range... but when I do, it is an awesome experience with the A-TRAC!

[Edited on 5-6-2012 by David K]
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