BajaNomad - Baja Real Estate advise

Baja Real Estate advise

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lookingandbuying - 3-10-2011 at 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
***************
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THATS A CRUEL JOKE!!! :lol:

So, what's the background? Since it is all so well known maybe you could point me in the right direction to discover the things mentioned above??

To me, this is an extremely interesting topic of conversation. We actually have seen examples of people losing their places when they thought they owned it outright. Is there any truth to this National Land title defect issue, or not?

Another thing that interests me on this topic is that we are "vistors" and not the locals who may have more rights than we do. Chain of title on property is a very important issue, everywhere. Here right now in the USA we are having MANY problems with title defects as a result of properties being recorded and transferred in what is called the "MERS" system. MERS was set up by Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and several very large banks. Many here are claiming the banks that "claim" they own the mortgage and deed of trust really do not own it because the chain of title was broken.

I have never really understood ownership of land in Mexico other than that's just the way things are done around here. Even the recent titles that are offered by the title companies are said not to be worth the paper they are written on as they have many exclusions.

So, anything we can discuss regarding this topic to help inform others I believe is helpful. It could be a big NOTHING or maybe there actually is something to what is being claimed. The guys that started MERS here in the States thought they would be to big for anyone to mess with them as a full 60% of the home loans up here run through their system. What they are finding though is that the judges up here are not buying into the process and are in fact making rulings in favor of the homeowners that are in foreclosure. Beyond the homeowners mentioned above it it a big boon for the bankruptcy trustees representing former AAA rated companies like Bear Sterns etc that are now bankrupt themselves.

[Edited on 3-13-2011 by BajaNomad]

JESSE - 3-10-2011 at 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lookingandbuying

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
***************
***************

THATS A CRUEL JOKE!!! :lol:

I guess it is helpful, sort of like when banks and or credit card companies hire ex thieves or scam artists to bolster their security. Thats what ******* advice should be considered.

[Edited on 3-13-2011 by BajaNomad]

ramuma53 - 3-12-2011 at 07:50 AM

lookingandbuying
You can find the background on this thread, it is based on the acting law, those are not just words invented, we are citing actual laws here and so to direct you in the right direction I would have to ask you, to just read this thread from the start.

You are absolutely right about this topic being interesting and not only interesting, but important, because you will find here tools that you can actually use in court to defend your golden eggs.

I do not agree with you, about you, just being visitors, because Americans are actually buying houses and condos in Baja and putting in jeopardy your life savings, that fact, does give you rights, especially to be treated with respect to your money that is actually very important to Baja´s economy.

The precedent you mention, is actually very similar, here we have a lot of developers building on national land, having bought the land at just USD$5 to 7$ dlls/m2 and selling it to Americans through Fideicomisos supported by your trust in banks at $2500 to 3500 dlls/built m2. investing only USD$600 per m2 to build.

Here, the Chain of title on property is not existent from the start and people like ****** and other people like him, are using legal gibberish to try to convince Americans to buy property, where they perfectly know the Chain of title on property has legal problems and using pseudo legal facts to try to convince people to buy problems, like your fellow Americans at Punta Banda did.

If you see their arguments, you may very well just smile at them and just say, that they are just pranks and actually nobody would buy their gibberish, but please, do not just smile, because that gibberish has been being used, by Bajas public officials to sustain the legal status of void by origin titles, those pseudo legal facts have been around for almost 20 years and American people are being asked to buy at very high prices, based on those facts and not only those facts but others like those, like ¨Moral Owners¨ invented by public officials or ´in house title insurance´ invented by the Torres group, to justify allowing the sale of land, not taken out of National land in a legal way and in fact, allowing the problems to just continue in to the future, just expecting that the government will come and erase their induced mistake and hide their lies.

Read the laws I have given you here, and then, read the gibberish given by ***** and others and just ask yourself, would you spend your life savings to buy on their arguments???

That is the question addressed here.

Please do not just laugh about their arguments and think that those arguments may actually survive to sustain property rights in Mexico, because it will not and as you say, people have been losing their property, because they believed in public officials and developer´s sales speach, that sustained those arguments, thinking ´well, that is the Mexican way´.
What I am asking here, to the Americans buying property, is to think that Mexico has logical laws, like any other place in the world and not to suspend intelligence, when you buy in Mexico, actually ask the developers to clear the property legal title chain before they sell you at California prices.
Where in the world would you buy property from a company that when you ask them for title insurance, tell you ¨we insure ourselves, the Torres group, has such a good reputation, that it can insure itself¨and people actually buy from them???? :?:

You are not just visitors observing, you are the consumer and the buyer has rights, here and in any other place on the world, your money give you that right and that money was hard earned and deserve respect.

Not doing it, is what sent Ensenda economy to the rocks, Rosarito and Tijuana are now there and they deserve it, but they use people like ***** to try to convince you to just continue buying and trusting their arguments.
Would you do it and continue doing it????????????????????????????????????

[Edited on 3-12-2011 by ramuma53]

[Edited on 3-13-2011 by BajaNomad]

gnukid - 3-12-2011 at 07:58 AM

1) Do not look ever for legal advice from a 'lawyer' posting on a forum.

2) A certain nomad along who participated in this thread shares equal responsibility for this promotion.

mulegemichael - 3-12-2011 at 08:10 AM

uh oh, is this the same ramuma that loves turtle soup?

ramuma53 - 3-12-2011 at 08:18 AM

gnukid
what are the arguments that support your words?
Why do you ask people to ignore information that they can not get any other place?
Do you think that the actual estate of affairs in Baja is well just being that way???
Do you think that people buying property in baja will just forget Punta Banda problem?????
People are getting results based on what is said here, why shuld they ignore it???

BajaGringo - 3-12-2011 at 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
1) Do not look ever for legal advice from a 'lawyer' posting on a forum.

2) A certain nomad along who participated in this thread shares equal responsibility for this promotion.

I am just curious gnukid, specifically what has he stated in this thread that you dispute and what facts do you have to back that up???

:?:

Woooosh - 3-12-2011 at 09:36 AM

I have near my house an empty 10 unit condo tower that was built on national land (Federal Zone) by Grupo Aries. It has been completed and sitting empty for over three years now. It was built on top of an old foundation with a nod and a wink from someone. Since there is no title, they are not for sale, although they did try to sell them during construction but timed the Baja market badly. They claim these are 'luxury" condos and now list the entire building for sale for $5 Million USD, instead of $500K each as before. Grupo Aires hired Finance North America to sell the condos, who never disclosed a lack of title. Had an unfortunate american bought one, they would be out their money. This is not old news like Punta Banda or Trump Baja. The theft of national land to swindle buyers is very much alive and well in Rosarito today. There is even a lifeguard building currently for sale on CraigsList at $400K that is very obviously on national land (the ad even tells people they can develop the property for commercial profit purposes). If potential buyers had the correct information, they wouldn't go near these two properties- because eventually the liars are caught and the buyer is the one who loses his money, not the criminal seller. Information is what Ramuna53 offers, and it should not be dismissed lightly, unless you are a real estate swindler with bad intentions. It is always cheaper to steal something and re-sell it than to buy it properly and re-sell it- and this is basically what has been happening. jmho.

gnukid - 3-12-2011 at 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo

Quote:

I am just curious gnukid, specifically what has he stated in this thread that you dispute and what facts do you have to back that up???

:?:

These two statements are true based, regardless of the statements made in this thread or their merits. If you can't understand that there are problems with this thread there is little help, nor facts that can help you understand, you are doomed to a life or legal shenanigans and nonsense.

There are very basic tenants to follow in real estate and also in participation in online forums.

In life, one shouldn't play around on anonymous bulletin boards hoping to get reliable professional information in order to understand mexico real estate especially from a poster whose claim to fame is promoting a story about turtle soup, a naval vessel, that resulted in an apparent bar fight.

How is it possible, that Whoosh went from the 1000 post turtle thread to 100% confidence and support of the perpetrator? If this is how he chooses confidence I can't wait to see the rest of his posse. Whoosh's behavior in this case fits the definition of insanity, that is self-evident, I say so out of concern for his well-being and others who may be misguided into a dangerous game of tricks as we have seen previously.

The fact that anyone here would give this thread even a modicum of weight, albeit naively or in ignorance, is equally guilty in perpetrating and promoting a charade, promoting legal uncertainty, legal expertise where it's lacking, and in general poor judgment. I seriously question the common sense of WHoosh and I do so out of real concern for the negative and potentially misleading influence of this thread.

This isn't personal, it's common sense and practical.

Whoosh, BajaGringo and Ramuna are free to make their assertions of confidence in Ramuna and his declaration of certain uncertainly (now I sound like Rumsfeld argh), I am not contesting their validity or non-validity, simply pointing out this is not reliable or helpful method to understand legal title or negotiate the general RE market in the region. Please consider the process and method and use greater caution.

Now, if Whoosh, BajaGringo and Ramuna want to play WWF style RE much like Ramuna's WWF stlye hotel management great, good for you, go at it, call Jesse Ventura and sell tickets to this debacle-why not open a RE office called Turtle Soup Real Estate-You Can Trust Us We Know The Navy!

However, as a practical application, this forum discussion method is certainly not helpful and is misleading those who seeking professional advice, that goes without argument (even in france where they love to argue-BajaGringo are you French? hahaha).

Yes there are pit-falls to RE, yes its confusing, yes it's risky, however, the common understanding at BN should be obvious, go somewhere besides here to understand and learn about RE historical precedence, National law, International law, Natural law and practical RE applications in Mexico.

Do not play into the hands of the turtle soup mafia. Now get outta here ya crazy vacationing hill-billy tourists-go hit the beach and avoid falling into these online sand traps again.

[Edited on 3-12-2011 by gnukid]

Woooosh - 3-12-2011 at 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo

Quote:

I am just curious gnukid, specifically what has he stated in this thread that you dispute and what facts do you have to back that up???

:?:

How is it possible, that Whoosh went from the 1000 post turtle thread to 100% confidence and support of the perpetrator? If this is how he chooses confidence I can't wait to see the rest of his posse. Whoosh's behavior in this case fits the definition of insanity, that is self-evident, I say so out of concern for his well-being and others who may be misguided into a dangerous game of tricks as we have seen previously.

Whoosh, BajaGringo and Ramuna are free to make their assertions of confidence in Ramuna and his declaration of certain uncertainly (now I sound like Rumsfeld argh), I am not contesting their validity or non-validity, simply pointing out this is not reliable or helpful method to understand legal title or negotiate the general RE market in the region. Please consider the process and method and use greater caution.

Now, if Whoosh, BajaGringo and Ramuna want to play WWF style RE much like Ramuna's WWF stlye hotel management great, good for you, go at it, call Jesse Ventura and sell tickets to this debacle-why not open a RE office called Turtle Soup Real Estate-You Can Trust Us We Know The Navy!
[Edited on 3-12-2011 by gnukid]

I felt bad for the turtle heads the authorities found in the trash of that restaurant, and honestly- i did not read all the 1000 posts on that thread. Save the turtles!

I have not only gotten advice on this thread from Ramuna53, I have gotten RESULTS. I have met with the expert he referred me to from this thread, and thanks to him- my federal concession problem has been legally addressed in the courts and is being resolved in my favor (ok - the people of Rosarito's favor). The Mexican who tried to steal my concession knew how to game the system, I did not- until Ramunas53 helped me. The game is not fun- but Americans have to learn to play by Mexican rules and laws as they are written today- or they will lose every time. Information is everything. His experts are right-on and I thank him again and now for this thread. What have you done on this thread topic for me or any other Nomads that puts you on the high road you claim to be riding on?

[Edited on 3-12-2011 by Woooosh]

mtgoat666 - 3-12-2011 at 12:11 PM

the turtle thread is all you need to know about ramsanus53.

Woooosh - 3-12-2011 at 12:14 PM

One more thing... when going through my concession paperwork file (I throw nothing away). The name of Ramuma53's federal zone expert was there all along. Don't know why I didn't use him from the getgo- would have saved me a few grand and three years aggravation withthiw squatter. How did I get the name of Ramamas53 expert? SEMARNAT GAVE IT TO ME IN THEIR OFFICE when I asked them for a list of good people to do the concession work for me. So are you saying Ramunua53 and SEMARNAT and his experts are in cahoots in some negative way?

[Edited on 3-12-2011 by Woooosh]

Woooosh - 3-12-2011 at 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
the turtle thread is all you need to know about ramsanus53.

The Turtle Bust thread is way too long... waaaaay too long.

mtgoat666 - 3-12-2011 at 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
One more thing... when going through my concession paperwork file (I throw nothing away). The name of Ramuma53's federal zone expert was there all along. Don't know why I didn't use him from the getgo- would have saved me a few grand and two years aggravation. How did I get the name of Ramamas53 expert? SEMARNAT GAVE IT TO ME five years ago when I asked them for a list of people to do the concession work for me. So are you saying Ramunua53 and SEMARNAT are both in cahoots? Get real, he is.

did you read the turtle thread?

mtgoat666 - 3-12-2011 at 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
the turtle thread is all you need to know about ramsanus53.

The Turtle Bust thread is way too long... waaaaay too long.

well, you should have read it as it developed. ramsanus53 was one of the primary characters in that saga - much about him is clear if you read it (assuming ramsanus53 as not deleted his screed)

Woooosh - 3-12-2011 at 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
the turtle thread is all you need to know about ramsanus53.

The Turtle Bust thread is way too long... waaaaay too long.

well, you should have read it as it developed. ramsanus53 was one of the primary characters in that saga - much about him is clear if you read it (assuming ramsanus53 as not deleted his screed)

I don't even think I was a nomad yet then. If you go through life looking only at how your friends treat others, instead of focusing on how they treat you- you do both yourself and your friend a disservice.

[Edited on 3-12-2011 by Woooosh]

Cypress - 3-12-2011 at 12:26 PM

Not buying, not selling, and not looking at anything even close to Baja. :lol:

Very interesting opinions about buying/selling property in Mexico. Was sold on Baja at one time, 'till I went fishing down there. And not for a day or two, but for 4 months. Triggerfish heaven! Got tired of a triggerfish diet. :lol:

mtgoat666 - 3-12-2011 at 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
the turtle thread is all you need to know about ramsanus53.

The Turtle Bust thread is way too long... waaaaay too long.

well, you should have read it as it developed. ramsanus53 was one of the primary characters in that saga - much about him is clear if you read it (assuming ramsanus53 as not deleted his screed)

some say you can judge a man by the company he keeps.

good luck being friends with ramsanus53.

perhaps you should buy a house or business next door to him :lol:

Would he boil and eat them, too?

Dave - 3-12-2011 at 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho
Fascinating. If someone took sadistic pleasure in beating infant children, would that have any effect on your attitude or relationship with him?

We are talking about lawyers here, right?

I would insist my attorney exhibit these qualities.

National Land transfer needed, or not??

lookingandbuying - 3-12-2011 at 02:14 PM

Hi All,

Again, I think this is a very interesting thread/topic and the various opinions shared are a worthwhile read. I would concur that a person should not randomly come to a "blog post" to get information that they are going to rely on in a transaction that may separate them from their money. And so yes, item #1 expressed in gnukids post is accurate. I am not really sure what he is referring to in item #2. In any event, getting true professional advice when doing any transaction is always the best approach. The problem I see is firstly, it is very hard in Baja to find true professionals that don't also have some other agenda than that of protecting you in the course of business you are conducting.

I have been going to Baja since about 1971, so it is not a new place for me. I also have friends that "own homes/condos" or whatever you want to call having a place in Baja.

Some of my friends have homes on the Federal Zone and this type of arrangement seems pretty straight forward. You pay your Federal Zone charges each year and have enjoyment of the use. Whatever enhancements you place on the property are yours to enjoy and typically there is a Campo owner that may have land adjacent to the Federal Zone. You can obtain your water, trash and any other small services from the Campo landlord for a small fee. In my mind this type of arrangement is great as it is extremely cheap for what you are getting, but truly you really don't own anything and I get that.

We are all I am sure aware of the Punta Banda problem and of course those of Trump and other condo developers in the area. While the Punta Banda problem has it's own unique issues those of Trump and other condo developers that did the same thing Trump did is similar. From my understanding of the Trump and other unfinished condo towers these developers got people to place large deposits on a place that was un-built and maybe to put up additional funds during various stages of construction progress with the intention of paying the final balance in cash or by bank loan upon completion and delivery of the finished unit. Most likely, in these cases where the people lost their funds it was a result of a few things. First being that the developer was a plain out and out crook and were stealing people's money from the get go without ever having any intention of delivering a completed unit. Second, they were part crook whether intentional or not whereby they withdrew large funds as salaries etc and they ended up thinking that the units would sell faster for higher prices and ended up having cost over runs and other problems that ended up resulting in them being unable to deliver the promised goods. Third, some guys were just very unseasoned or even seasoned developers that did not know what they were doing and while they had good intentions they screwed everyone out of their money as a result of their stupidity. This last case, #3 I would call a error in judgement or a plain old bankruptcy. All or most of the losses that the buyers experienced could have been avoided if there were a true escrow of the deposit funds. And I've heard that while some of these places offered what they were calling an escrow of the deposit funds it was not truly an escrow account as we would know them in the States.

The above information can be used for single family home contracted to buy also and is not restricted to condo developments.

So people got caught up with shysters or someone that had a business error (aka bankruptcy) and lost their money. While I would lay most of the blame of the developers you would have to lay some of the blame at the feet of the people that willy nilly gave their money to many of these so called developers. Whether doing a transaction like this was because of greed or plain stupidity the result is the same...they lost their money and it will not be recovered. The money got swallowed by the great real estate boom boom days, bye bye money.

But, the topic on this thread is different than of those described above. The topic here, I believe, is regarding those cases where a person provided a deposit on a place, the developer fully completed the project and delivered the final completed unit/house to the buyer. The topic here could also apply to a person that is merely buying a resell condo unit or house. And, the topic as I see it is how does a person assure themselves that they are properly getting ownership title to a place they are buying. This has been an issue that fully is beyond my comprehension and the more questions one asks the more confusing it gets!!

First, some people (real estate agents and brokers or others involved in the real estate business in Baja) will either tell you that you don't or you do need an FM?? to properly buy a place. It is my understanding that if a person does not have the proper FM?? then any contract signed is invalid. So, this is one problem, depending on who you are listening to, because if you can't legally contract then it's all worthless from there. But let's say a person does have the appropriate FM?? that allows them to legally sign contracts in Mexico. As a side note it is my understanding that a person needs the appropriate FM?? to sign ANY contract whether it relates to buying a place, renting a place or trying to contract to any other type of business. But, let's say we do have the proper documentation and can legally contract in Mexico.

So, the next step is what should I do to ensure I get proper ownership/title to a place that I want to buy?? I have always heard "if you get it in a bank trust then it's as safe as you can get". While this "may" be the case there always seems to be some type of other problem or glitch like while the place is in an existing bank trust (or you can start a new one) part of the land/house/condo you are trying to buy is on the Federal Zone. In some cases it's just the patio or stairs leading down to the ocean and in other cases parts of the actual building structure are built on Federal Zone. And hey, this is why places are a lot cheaper in Mexico after all.

But the topic on this thread cuts deeper. The topic of perfecting title on a place you are trying to buy is very important and valid!! Here the claim is being made that if you are going to buy a place ANYWHERE in Baja you should go to the land office and if you do not find a transfer of title out of the National Lands in the file then you can not perfect either ownership or clean title to a place you are trying to buy and spending your money on. I think it has also been stated if the seller can not provide this document to you then walk away. So folks, this is either true, or not. I don't really care about duck soup or turtle soup regarding this subject.

If this is in fact true (you have to have a transfer out of the National Lands to obtain clear title) then there exists many many problems for people that think they own something down in Baja. The greater fool theory does not appeal to me, especially if I were to spend some money on a place in Baja, and maybe, that is what we have going on down here?

We should ALL take title issues into serious consideration when buying a place either in the States or in Baja. We here right now in the States are experiencing MANY title defect issues where we "thought" we have a perfect or good system on doing title search's and assuring a buyer that they have a clear title. As I mentioned in an earlier post do a search for "MERS" and you will find a ton of information about it. A good starting point to read about MERS is to read the New York Times article about the subject that you will find when you do a search. These guys that started and run the MERS system of recording title thought they would get to BIG for anyone to mess with them and at this point in time approximately 60% of ALL properties in the States has been processed through this method of recording title. While they are BIG they are finding that when a person challenges title issues that have been recorded using the MERS method that the judges are ruling in the homeowner's favor which is allowing people to totally get their mortgage nullified leaving the bank that thought they had a perfected lien with their arse hanging in the wind. While MERS is BIG...it does not mean they were legally correct in what they were doing.

So, BIG BIG BIG question!! Is there anything to this issue in Mexico of needing to have a document showing that the property you are buying (or currently have) has been transferred out of the National Lands, OR NOT??? Does a person need it, or not? While prices in Mexico are a lot cheaper as a result of ALL of these issues this seems to be a BIGGY.

Lastly, someone mentioned something to the effect that relying on Ramada's information is like when bank's etc hire former/current crooks to review their security measures to see if they can be breached. This method is actually a very good one that has helped save many large corporations huge amounts of money.

Woooosh - 3-12-2011 at 03:31 PM

Great post LookingandBuying. The lack "completion bonds" in Mexico is a biggie too when talking about new condo projects you may be thinking of buying into. If the developer only has to depend on the next persons deposit to deliver the previous persons unit- what happens when the flow of cash stops? Nothing good.

The chain of title topic is very important. I do not know what that document would look like on Federal Zone. Once SEMARNAT gives you a Federal 15 year title to the Federal Zone, I would think that is solid. But what happens in the time between? The time between when the private land title is no longer valid because the federal zone has moved behind it? I would think the private land title holder would have first dibbs on the Federal Title if they were to apply for it in time. If they were not to apply and another person did, once that Federal Title is granted I would think the original private land title holder is then out of luck. There is also the huge unknown of when a cliff or 20 degree slope is involved for some reason.

ramuma53 - 3-12-2011 at 09:29 PM

Concerning the issue of need to have a title that takes land out of National Land, to have private property in Mexico.

Just go to the Mexican constitution, article 27 main text, it says that ´all land inside the Mexico borders are by origin National Land´
That mean that all land start as National Land, then you have to have a national Land title to take it out, for the first time, so you always have to have a National land title as first document in the Title chain; the problem in Baja is that that simple issue is not always true, they have old titles that violate the law as precedent and the law says that Private property to exist, have to have a legally issued tile as precedent, not just any title, a legally issued title and that mean a tile issued obeying the laws operating at the time the title was issued.
In the Rosarito area, the titles that supposedly support the private property there, were issued in an illegal way, violating the law operating at that time, mostly because the 1863 ordered that private property was limited to Mexican living in Mexico, with an area less than 2500 Hectares while the title issued by the dictator Porfirio Diaz, had an area of 19,300 Has, clearly several times the amount allowed by law, also the title was issued to an American citizen living in San Francisco California USA.
That mean, that that land has never came out of national land dominium through a legally issued title and that mean that that land is at this time National Land while national land is not subjected to status of limitation or any time limit and that mean, that you cannot own national land by simply possessing it.
The Punta Banda problem exploded, because when the USA Consulate in Tijuana consulted me, they did not believed me, that the problem will end in a National land title victory in courts, they followed the Then Governor advice that there would be no problem and the base legal fact was that that land was national land declared national land by the 1952 national land presidential proclamation and that proclamation also affect all the Rosarito area, it is the same problem, not just similar.
Because of the Punta Banda´s problem, the Reforma Agraria secretary ordered the area brought to legality and sent an official expert team to correct it, named ´Comision Deslindadora y Regularizadora de Terrenos Nacionales en las Bajas Californias´ to do the actual job in 1992, but the Baja Governor moved by Hugo Torres Chavert, objected the work of that commission because he wanted to protect all the Rosarito developers, he objected to the Mexico´s President and the President just allowed him to hang himself for being the first Pan Governor.
Since then, the Baja Estate government has been trying to promote the belief that the old titles are right, actually allowing the unlawfulness to continue and allowing the Baja developers to build on National Land without a lawful title.
This has to end sooner or later to be able to issue legal titles and then allow the developers to give legal title chain to buyers.
They played the ignorance and time card, wishing that time would make things right or having created a very big problem to the federal government, the Federal government would just correct things without legal noise, but legal problems have erupted time and time again because of this lack of legality and I mean Playa Encantada, Castillos del Mar, Rancho costa Azul, CFE, Venustiano Carranza, Popotla, El Campito, El Oasis, the Trump towers.
That mean, that at this time, the Federal Government is studying the possibility to send again the original commission to do the job that Ruffo stopped almost 20 years ago and when that happen, all the developers will have to pay the National Land price at $100 dlls/m2 to have a legal title but that will be the end of the problem.
Of course Hugo Torres Chaver advocates will do every dirty trick to try to stop it, because even the Hotel Rosarito is in National land.
Who has legal title in that area?
Venustiano Carranza, Playa Encantada (Not the 3 Hugo Torres Chavert towers, the real owners), Castillos del Mar, the El Morro strip and a couple in Playas de Tijuana and that is it.
Will this legal battle continue? Yes, it is going on at this time in Mexico City courts.
Who will win? Just see the Punta Banda precedent, National Land has been winning every time and one of the last examples is the Playas de Tijuana area loss by the Estate government against national lad titles, even against national land possessors the Estate government lost.
Mexican land owners know about this problem going on in courts and in administrative courts but they hide it to customers and that is not right.
We would not want a Rosarito whole area becoming a huge Punta Banda problem for Mexico, we do not want Americans to lose their houses and the only way to do that is by advising American customers to not get involved in those legal battles going on and more if they do not know.

Concerning Federal Zone
The law says that Federal Zone only exist when the coast has a beach and the solid ground beside the beach has a less than 30 degrees slope, if those facts do not concurr, Federal Zone does not exist, even if Federal Zone guys and Rosarito City officials try to hide it, just because those Federal Zone charges are 25% of the city income.

wessongroup - 3-12-2011 at 10:45 PM

Once again thank you...

and just waiting for the "new" how to buy real estate in Mexico.. which will be coming out very soon... I would guess

great job, thanks to many.....

[Edited on 3-13-2011 by wessongroup]

krafty - 3-12-2011 at 11:15 PM

our deal down here is a 100 year lease, with 63 left on it. The folks that are lucky enough to have some property in the fed. zone are billed accordingly every year, and apparently it has not been a problem for 30 years. Don't know if NEED is the word for an FM whatever-we have a 30 year resident who decided it was unnecessary and has not dealt with it for a decade. We would not be without it-if for some reason you get into it with someone and they take you to court, you can be asked to leave, but are pretty safe as long as your FM is current. Have seen this happen repeatedly in our little community

lookingandbuying - 3-12-2011 at 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by krafty
our deal down here is a 100 year lease, with 63 left on it. The folks that are lucky enough to have some property in the fed. zone are billed accordingly every year, and apparently it has not been a problem for 30 years. Don't know if NEED is the word for an FM whatever-we have a 30 year resident who decided it was unnecessary and has not dealt with it for a decade. We would not be without it-if for some reason you get into it with someone and they take you to court, you can be asked to leave, but are pretty safe as long as your FM is current. Have seen this happen repeatedly in our little community

Krafty,

I had always thought any lease over
exactly 10 years was illegal in Mexico.

Maybe I am not understanding what
you are saying your terms are?

Any additional details or information?

Thanks!!

Bajatripper - 3-13-2011 at 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lookingandbuying

Quote:

lookingandbuying
You are almost correct (if I am not mistaken) with the 10-year limit on land leases in Mexico. It is my understanding that leases here are limited to one day less than 10 years. If I had a doubt about it, I'd ask ramura, he seems to know a lot about the subject. Or, maybe not. I wouldn't want to know that my 100 year lease was worthless in court on the 10th anniversary of the lease. I'd go with the "ignorance is bliss" mentality and hope that it's true that "God protects drunks and fools." :lol:

Cypress - 3-13-2011 at 10:59 AM

Is there something wrong with this picture? A 100 yr. lease that doesn't exist, yet is paid for? Leases are only good for 10 yrs.? And no one really knows for sure? "Uncertain" seems to be the operative word. Why? Surely someone knows?

krafty - 3-13-2011 at 12:46 PM

We are one of about 4 communities in MX that has this IRONCLAD arrangement and there are folks here that have lived here for 30 years-it was originally designated as a "beach club"

Cypress - 3-13-2011 at 12:57 PM

krafty, Thanks. Four communities in all of Mexico? IRONCLAD? Interesting.

Things just workout??

lookingandbuying - 3-13-2011 at 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by krafty
We are one of about 4 communities in MX that has this IRONCLAD arrangement and there are folks here that have lived here for 30 years-it was originally designated as a "beach club"

While I don't know about anything being "IRONCLAD" in Mexico, I hope things workout for you and that you or someone you know gets to enjoy the remaining 63 years you think you have.

This is the type of thing that I chalk up in Mexico to "if it works don't mess with it". And also to enjoy each day there as much as possible as you have rights you think you had until you don't. I suppose if someone is making money off this deal and they are happy with the amount they are receiving then things will bump along as is. As always, never invest/spend more on a place in Mexico than you can afford to lose.

IRONCLAD?

mcfez - 3-13-2011 at 02:30 PM

Ed Tabor's Flying Sportsmen Lodge thought the same down in Loreto. Opened somewhere in the early 50's and lost the land in property disputes...in 1982

Though we have investments in Baja.....It's stuff that I can afford to loose.

......."leases here are limited to one day less than 10 years. True.

[Edited on 3-13-2011 by mcfez]

krafty - 3-13-2011 at 04:06 PM

Think what y'all want-the owner of the land knows he cannot and will not mess with us-he also has several relatives that live in this community...we are about 60 casas here, mixed MX and Gringos, with a couple of Argentinians, spaniards, and hungarian thrown in for good luck :lol:

Woooosh - 3-13-2011 at 04:47 PM

The most interesting part of this discussion to me is how recent these legal decisions on land titles are. The Rosarito national lands issue is as recent as 1992 and as yet unresolved? YIKES. I don't think any owners or potential buyers know these legal events are still fluid and that Torres had been blocking and stalling the legal process to his benefit. I don't think anyone would buy down here knowing that they might not be buying anything. If someone with more legal knowledge can file some legal papers and take your property- what did you buy?

The 100 year lease topic is dangerous. Anyone reading this thread could file the correct papers for that area and it would more legally be theirs than yours. That's more than a bit unsettling. It is a hard game to win if you don't have access to the correct information, and most expats don't.

lookingandbuying - 3-13-2011 at 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
The most interesting part of this discussion to me is how recent these legal decisions on land titles are. The Rosarito national lands issue is as recent as 1992 and as yet unresolved? YIKES. I don't think any owners or potential buyers know these legal events are still fluid and that Torres had been blocking and stalling the legal process to his benefit. I don't think anyone would buy down here knowing that they might not be buying anything. If someone with more legal knowledge can file some legal papers and take your property- what did you buy?

The 100 year lease topic is dangerous. Anyone reading this thread could file the correct papers for that area and it would more legally be theirs than yours. That's more than a bit unsettling. It is a hard game to win if you don't have access to the correct information, and most expats don't.

Woooosh,

Agree, it is taking a lot of time, but, when you think about how much time it takes for legal cases to weave their way through the process here all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court it should not be that surprising to us that things do take time in Mexico too. I mean here you can be a young man when the legal process starts and be very old and grey haired by the time a decision is handed down from our highest courts in the land.

The one thing we do have to keep in mind is that things are much much cheaper as a result of all the confusion and misinformation. So in some circumstances it is helpful. And like our friend Krafty above who has a 100 year lease with 63 years remaining :rolleyes:

it's working for him at the moment. So it's all good until it's not!!

So with all this happening I think I read on one of your posts that you have a 4000 sq ft place across the street from the ocean where you have a concession in front? How do you handle these property title issues? I know you are currently going through a battle regarding the concession property but how do you hold title to the house? Just wondering as you certainly seem to be fully aware of all the issues so want to know how you have done a work around that works for you.

One last comment and this is more in response to Rumanna53. He keeps saying the developers are going to have a big problem once this National Land title issue gets sorted out. I would think that the developers are long gone and that the current owner's of a house or condo are going to be the ones that suffer the hurt? It would seem that if the NAtional Title problem/issue is true that a big assessment would be coming from the current owner's of these places, possibly. He has also mentioned a price per sq meter or sq something or other that people would need to pay to finally obtain a proper transfer out of the National Lands. I was wondering what this amounts to per sq foot of land?? Any idea?

It is just a real shame that this is going on. It truly hurts the locals as a result of diminished business activity. The interesting thing is even with all this uncertainty which has been around for a long long time people still buy and sell places all the time. Been going on for years.

Bajatripper - 3-13-2011 at 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Is there something wrong with this picture? A 100 yr. lease that doesn't exist, yet is paid for? Leases are only good for 10 yrs.? And no one really knows for sure? "Uncertain" seems to be the operative word. Why? Surely someone knows?

Actually, I'm quite certain of my claim that leases on land are only valid for one day less than ten years, I'm just a polite guy who tries to not sound arrogant.

Now, that doesn't mean that my information is correct--just that I'm damn certain it is! :lol:

Bajatripper - 3-13-2011 at 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by krafty
Think what y'all want-the owner of the land knows he cannot and will not mess with us-he also has several relatives that live in this community...we are about 60 casas here, mixed MX and Gringos, with a couple of Argentinians, spaniards, and hungarian thrown in for good luck :lol:

Hey, now that's the attitude! I'm sure the owner will be real intimidated.
So there were at least 60 people from various nationalities who signed these 100 year leases? All of them? Really? Hard to believe there could be so much "innocence" in one place, to put it politely. Did you mention where this place is? There is money to be made there...

But on a serious note: perhaps the current owner is a swell upstanding sort of guy and never, ever violates the spirit of the lease. Can you say the same for his kids, and their kids?
All it would take to turn your land over to them is a court challenge of the legality of the lease after the initial ten years are up. And it doesn't really matter what any of us think, what matters in this case is what the law says and how a judge interprets it.

It is good that you brought this up, in case others are considering the same. These long-term leases were once quite popular, in the days before the fideicomisos offered foreigners some sort of guarantees beyond nine years and 364.24 days.

[Edited on 3-14-2011 by Bajatripper]

Dave - 3-13-2011 at 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lookingandbuying
He has also mentioned a price per sq meter or sq something or other that people would need to pay to finally obtain a proper transfer out of the National Lands. I was wondering what this amounts to per sq foot of land?? Any idea?

The price he quoted was $100 per sq meter. I'm assuming he meant 1,000 pesos. 1 sq meter is 10.764 sq ft.

I, too, am not worried much about the title dispute. I expect whatever land I have left to be sold before the caca meets the fan. Last liar doesn't stand a chance. :rolleyes:

DENNIS - 3-13-2011 at 06:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by krafty
We would not be without it-if for some reason you get into it with someone and they take you to court, you can be asked to leave, but are pretty safe as long as your FM is current. Have seen this happen repeatedly in our little community

Repeatedly? Sounds like a fractious place to live. I've been down here a long time and have never seen this happen.......not that it can't.
Where are you located, krafty? Just curious.

Bajatripper - 3-13-2011 at 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo

Quote:

I am just curious gnukid, specifically what has he stated in this thread that you dispute and what facts do you have to back that up???

:?:

I'm with you Gringo. If there is one thing ramuma seems to know a lot about, it is the legal issues involving land acquisition in Mexico. To look a gift horse like that in the mouth seems to be the foolish act in this case.
Regardless of how you might feel about the man based on the turtle soup thread, he is a valuable resource on this thread and some have said they've already benefitted from his advice. Nuff said.

[Edited on 3-14-2011 by Bajatripper]

I Think That Jesse is Correct and He Has Been Edited

Gypsy Jan - 3-13-2011 at 06:58 PM

Just my humble opinion.

ramuma53 - 3-13-2011 at 06:59 PM

lookingandbuying
In a private property lease, you can only talk about a I day less than 10 year lease only, but it will be renewable as many times as you want and if you do not put the end date, it is an indefinite time contract equal to 10 years maximum, but, if you make a 99 years lease and you want to be tied by it, it will work as long as both parties want.
If the landlord´s children are not in agreement with your children, there may be a legal problem, but the 99 years lease is an agreement of wills and legality is defined by agreement of wills, so you will have a legal fighting chance, more if the contract was signed before the fideicomisos started, because you must apply the law that was acting at the time the contract was signed, not actual law.
I can tell you that the ´Castillos del Mar´ lease contracts, are for 49 years, are between Americans and a Mexican and those contracts are fully legal because they were signed before the fideicomiso was invented and the law limiting the contracts to 10 years were in effect.

[Edited on 3-14-2011 by ramuma53]

lookingandbuying - 3-13-2011 at 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Who thinks lookingandbuying is certainly a shill? Hello Skeet?

Look at this group and their posts??? self-promoters, turtle soup N-zis, defunct hoteliers, real estate agents, friends of navy commanders, bajagringo and WHoosh what are you thinking?, what is this some sort of street dogpile?#$#!% geezo when you look at this unlikely group, it conjures up images of Buggsie Segal movin' in.

It's quite apparent by their posts, association and apparent intent, this not a group to look to for any advice, help, facts or direction, quite the opposite-super scary. I'd like to give Whoosh the benefit of doubt that he is simply misled but that point passed long ago, you can know someone by the friends and associations they choose.... frightening to say the least that BN is such a haven for misinfo and shills.

I do place a fair portion of blame on Doug who certainly allows this and encourages this to manifest.

Gnukid,

What is YOUR problem. If you want to know who I am feel free to U2 me and I will give you my telephone number to contact me on. Or, in the alternative send me yours and I will call.

I am not really sure what problems you have with the discussion on this thread or why Doug should have ANY concerns about the posts. It has been all Baja related??

For you to call me a shill is offensive. Since you seem so sensitive about the topic/discussion it leads me to believe that you are either a real estate agent, involved with real estate or heavily invested in Baja real estate. Shill?? :lol:

You know I had been looking at this site LONG before I ever registered as it did not seem worthwhile to post as everyone jumped your case and it was a ton of BS. I then registered and have posted several times. For the most part, I have gained great information by visiting this site and learned a lot about various places and things in Baja.

Just spent a month in an area I really love in Baja. Will be coming down again real soon. Actually, I fully intend to one day live down there full time. As it stands now I have used some friends houses while there, hit a ton of different hotels, rented houses camped you name it I've done it. In fact, would love to eventually purchase a place down there at some point. So shill?? NO!!! Person that loves Baja? YES!!

This topic seems real easy to me. Is there a National Land Title issue that affects property in parts of Baja, or not?? Talking about duck and turtle soup is BS. While I do not know all of the "players" here and it appears that some here have negative issues with others here I AM NOT ONE OF THEM!!

Next time you need to blow off some steam and accuse someone of being a shill look for someone other than me. Jeezz...go have a beer and cool off.

Why is it that you are so touchy about this subject and the posts made? Also, to obtain what you feel is good information about RE issues in the area for those of us that would like to know who do you recommend? At this point I have not seen where you have added any value to this particular topic. And to give you credit, I will add at least on this thread.

The real estate topic, title issues, problems people have had, good experiences people have had should all be shared. The issue of real estate needs to be transparent. For the life of me I have never found so many different answers to the same question, answers that are represented as fact that are blatantly false and many people trying to line there own pockets at your expense. Then, you get a breath of fresh air and find someone that knows some things and you add it to your bag of information. You drag the bag over your shoulder for a long time and at some point use the good information to make an informed decision. And, to be very clear I am not sure nor convinced that the current topic/issue of National Lands problems is accurate or not. I'm still in the I DO NOT KNOW AREA. How bout you??

Are you saying...come on down...BUY...everything is good. Whatever you do your money is safe in Baja real estate? Or, are you saying we should all be hush hush so no one ever finds out what's going on?? We need more fools to drop in so we can unload our problems to them before they catch on? I do know in Costa Rica many of the Gringos have to wait for another idiot with a ton of cash in their pockets to unload the big mistake they made when they bought their place there. Is this what's happening here?? Let's all be hush hush so we can screw someone else?

Shill :?:

Woooosh - 3-13-2011 at 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Whoosh, you must admit much of this thread is hypothetical, other portions attempt to establish credibility by referencing credible sources and then by association making alternative claims-it's conjecture. I could also make the argument that the US Constitution was never ratified, the Federal Reserve is not Federal not legally permitted, The Western States are part of Mexico, ad infinitum. There are vast issues of uncertainty which may be argued successfully, many people have won court cases against the IRS, many people have declared sovereignty in the the US, Lakota Nation is a sovereign area covering a large territory, William Walker raised the US flag in La Paz and established it as a US territory etc...

Whoosh you are clearly making a strong case for yourself that you do not have faith in your own legal rights and you would therefore give them up to someone like Ramuna whose case apparently you support.

Why not instead, mind yourself, mind your home, stay out of trouble, manage your household and avoid getting involved in shenanigans.

Instead of drawing attention, playing this silly and illogical speculation game, why not tend to your own business, live life and avoid known snakes and sharks.

Slow down and think about your actions and associations more carefully.

I am actively trying to preserve sections of the central sandy beach from development for the people of Rosarito by obtaining Federal Zone concessions. I have violent people trying to possess and sell the concession I have title to. I don't play dead and I'm not in this for any personal gain. I have learned from Ramuna that if I am to prevail, I need to play by the same rules the land thieves are playing by and now I have done so. It's all about having the correct information down here. I don't like people stealing things from me or the people of Rosarito for their profit. The beach should be free, clean, safe, and accessible for everyone and that is how I have decided to give back to the people of Rosarito. It's that simple really. bite me.

krafty - 3-13-2011 at 07:16 PM

folks repeatedly trying to rid the hood of some trash, but because they had their fm-3's were unable to do so. sorry I was not more specific
We live just south of Rosarito, Dennis

Woooosh - 3-13-2011 at 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lookingandbuying

Quote:

All our legal Mexican paperwork (land escritu for the house, which is in a fracciamiento, and the federal zone concessions) is under the Mexican half of the family. I am a Yankee and technically own nothing down here. If they throw me out, my home is in the mountains of Colorado.

When we bought the land and built the house, we were assured no one would ever be able to build on the beach in front of us. We kept the beach clean and paid to have several abandoned buildings torn down. One day in 2006 we noticed new construction (A Grupo Aries tower) going up on top of an old foundation near us. Curious we asked our builder/lawyer how this could happen and were told the laws had changed and everyone was grabbing up the beach to sell and develop. That is when we had the entire section of beach in front of us surveyed and applied for the Federal Title which was granted in 2008. Some parts had already been taken, but since the water had touched the land our house is on- we got first dibbs. In 2008 we applied for more beach and that was awarded to us in 2010. That condo that went up in 2006 is finished but has never been occupied- so they must be having legal issues. We have been patient but firm with a violent squatter who is trying to sell half our concession. It belongs to the people of Rosarito, we have met with Mayor Robles and have offered it all to him for his new boardwalk project.

If I lose, the people lose. Some ex-pats volunteer at animal shelter, the Red Cross or whatever. I surfed in front of the spot my house is on in the 80's- and this is my gift back to the people of Rosarito- the beach. I don't know how this country got so screwed up a Yankee has to fight for the beach for the Mexican people, but that's where we are today. If I lose- they lose their beach, so I won't lose thanks to Ramamu53 and his experts (who are recognized and recommended by SEMARNAT and used as legal expert by the Baja courts). I needed a pitbull and I got one, but I'm a def a Labrador person at heart.

[Edited on 3-14-2011 by Woooosh]

ramuma53 - 3-13-2011 at 07:33 PM

krafty
Just south of Rosarito, between the federal zone and the highway start the 1952 National land Presidential proclamation and that mean, you are on top of national land and your 99 contract is worth nothing, but if you are in Castillos del Mar, you are safe for the 99 years.
Also, since you only have a lease contract, the one in trouble would be your landlord, not you and he may have to pay the $1000 pesos/m2 if he wants to keep the land.
Also in case the problems start and your landlord do not want to pay, you may together with your neighbors buy the land from the government through a Mexican corporation and really keep the land forever.

ramuma53 - 3-13-2011 at 07:56 PM

I think we hit a sensible spot for some people here, like jeese and Gnukid.

I would ask them, why are they promoting the idea, that ignorance about a topic, is better than information????
Why ignoring about a potential problem is better than knowing about it????

Also they are trying to resurrect the turtle soup issue here and I would ask them also if they are also condoning the killing of sea turtles???
Because I do not feel at all bad on helping to prosecute people who make soup out of protected species and I will do it again and again.

also because I do not see any harm in informing people who buy homes in Rosarito, that a problem exactly like the one in Punta Banda, will explode in the near future all over the coastal strip.

Those people come here in good faith and will spend money hard earned along their lives, to buy their golden years home and do not want to get involved in land problems, the best thing they can do, is go to a safe place, to buy and if they anyway want to buy in the Rosarito area, they will do it knowing, not in ignorance and that is only correct.

The issue here, is that people, who are planning to buy, must know that a problem exists, that the real estate agents, are not giving them the full facts disclosing, they deserve and if they are going to buy anyway, they better take strong legal steps to secure their money, in case problems explode, please do not accept in house title insurance of course.

We just ask them to follow the title chain to a national land legal title, with an area less than 2500 Has. As the law mandate and this is not speculative or theory, it is the law.

WHY DO I ASK THEM, TO DO IT THEMSELVES AND NOT USE AN ATTORNEY OR A PUBLIC NOTARY OR A PUBLIC OFFICIAL? BECAUSE THOSE ENTITIES HAVE BEEN LYING TO CUSTOMERS FOR A LONG TIME AND THEY ARE THE ONES WHO CREATED THE EXISTING PROBLEM, NOT THINKING ABOUT THE BUYER AS IT IS THEIR OBLIGATION.
Also, if the dogs bark, it means that we are really doing something good. :light:

JESSE - 3-13-2011 at 08:15 PM

Don´t get me wrong people, ramumas advice is priceless, a man famous for invading other peoples land, using his late boss narco influences to twist the legal system, offering real estate advice. He knows all the tricks and scams land thieves use because hes one of them. So on that point, the info provided by him is valuable.

At least hes good for something.

Woooosh - 3-13-2011 at 08:31 PM

Ramuma53: I'm glad to see you fight back- with information. I did try to read the turtle soup thread and all I could keep thinking was the same thing page after page... why were these people serving turtle soup in the first place?

A thread that runs this long is going to be frayed eventually. You provide great information on the actual law of the land, which eventually will prevail. I don't know why these guys are barking at you- you have never said not to buy in Baja, only be informed of what you are buying. Would this information have changed my mind about buying/building in Rosarito, no. I wanted to live where I wanted to live (and I didn't spend more than I could afford to lose). My fight in this entire thread has been for the people of Rosarito and until you came along I was out of ideas and information on what to do next. It has not been the most pleasant two years of my retirement. On the other hand- everyday a handicapped family pulls up in their van to the Disabled Beach Access we put in on the concession and our family watches and smiles. It makes them feel good and now they "get it". Not many Mexicans (my own family at first too) can understand why you would spend money on something you don't want to profit from- but until the Mexican laws for federal zone land titles work properly, I simply have to. What Ramuma53 did was to show my family the path that will work to accomplish this Yankee's goal to protect the beach from development. And it happened in this thread. I'm on the Turtle's side.

[Edited on 3-14-2011 by Woooosh]

DENNIS - 3-13-2011 at 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by krafty
We live just south of Rosarito, Dennis

I thought you were up in that area. Thanks.

DENNIS - 3-13-2011 at 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ramuma53
In a private property lease, you can only talk about a I day less than 10 year lease only, but it will be renewable as many times as you want and if you do not put the end date, it is an indefinite time contract equal to 10 years maximum, but, if you make a 99 years lease and you want to be tied by it, it will work as long as both parties want.

This is the closest thing to gibberish that I have ever seen here. Why don't you just say, "Ten years at a time." There is no ninety nine year anything.

Not only that, I question whether Rental Agreements, which most "leases" actually are, have any weight in court. Almost none of them have the seal of approval given by a notary.
It's all Smoke and Mirrors.
Also....in all my time here, I've never seen anyone do business with a landlord while actually knowing for a FACT that he does indeed own the property. The trusting US sucker just leaves himself wide open to be victimized, then cries when it happens.

ramuma53 - 3-13-2011 at 09:13 PM

Continuing with the true Rosarito history
In 1915 the ´compañia Explotadora de la Baja California´ was created in Mexicali B.C. then that company bought from the Joaquin Machado´s estate the 19,300 Has. That company was 99.8% owned by Hugh Francis Collins born in Canada in a clear constitutional law violation.
In 1917 the Mexico President Carranza proclaimed the Baja lands that were at that time in the hands of foreigners, National land and that affected all the Rosarito ranch lands, from El Oasis north of Rosarito, to Calafia south of Rosarito.
Here I want to make clear that at that time, there was no land that was owned by the Machado family estate and this is important because several legal actions were initiated later that just ignored this simple fact.
In 1919 the Hotel Rosarito initiated construction owned by Hugh Francis Collins, but neighbors made complained to the president about the foreigners owned company, owning land on the forbidden to foreigners strip.
The president obligated the company to sell to a Mexican the hotel and nobody better to be the buyer than the president compadre, Mr. Barbachano (here we must question the validity of a sale made between a foreigner to a Mexican, selling land that a president in 1917 proclaimed national land and was not at that time, the foreigner´s property).
Barbachano continued with the hotel Rosarito building and opened it as a casino that even Alphonsus Capone visited latter.
In 1936 the Ejido Mazatlan was created taking lands from the Machado family estate (What lands !!!!!).
We can see that the Rosarito´s Real Estate disorder started in those years.
In November 7, 1952 a presidential decree was issued, proclaiming all the lands starting at the Rosarito´s creek, between the highway and the sea and ending in Punta Banda Ensenada, National Land.
In 1959 the president ordered the Baja Casinos closed and they caught Hotel Rosarito operating as a gaming casino and was closed and confiscated by the Federal government, from the Barbachano family.
The local workers went to Mexico city to ask the president to allow them to reopen the Hotel Rosarito as a hotel only, because the hotel was one of the very few working places in Rosarito.
The President allowed the workers to reopen the Hotel Rosarito as a hotel operated by the workers union and they returned to Rosarito to do it, but then made the biggest mistake ever made by a union, they asked Mrs. Barbachano to come and act as the new Hotel Rosarito owned by the union CEO, she did it and restarted the business as usual, but in the next years, she started to fire all the union members, admitting only new ones controlled by her.
Nobody buy 4 union members remained and Mrs. Barbachano was now acting as the owner; latter, Mr. Barbachano died without a will and the Barbachano Estate composed of 45 people who claimed to be Mr. Barbachano´s wives and sons and daughters.
That legal issue never has been resolved by the Mexican courts and nobody can claim to be the Mr. Barbachano will owner at this time, including the Hotel Rosarito.
When Mrs. Barbachano died, her estate went legally to Hugo Torres Chavert, her nephew, but since Hotel Rosarito is very doubtufull Mrs. Barbachano´s property, it is very doubtfully Hugo Torres Chavert´s property.
The Hotel Rosarito workers union, in 1992 made a claim to the Federal government, asking for the hotel to be returned to the real owners, the worker´s union, but it was immediately suppressed by Hugo Torres Chavert.
The legal proof that the Hotel Rosarito´s land is national Land, came in 1992, when the merchants owning the ´Mercado de Artesanias Benito Juarez´ asked the Federal Government for the sale of part of the Hotel Rosarito´s lands, it was granted and a National land´s title was issued to the merchants union.
Of course Hugo Torres Chavert objected the sale, but was legally destroyed by the national land office, that demonstrated that the Hotel Rosarito lands, were National Land and as today, the ´Mercado de Artesanias´ is working and well and not paying to Hugo Torres Chavert.
In 1986 another presidential decree, proclaiming all the lands between Tijuana, Tecate and Ensenada, National Land.
All these facts are supported by official documents already tested in Federal court and I can provide a copy to anyone who needs it.

Information, the more the merrier!

lookingandbuying - 3-13-2011 at 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
Ramuma53: I'm glad to see you fight back- with information. I did try to read the turtle soup thread and all I could keep thinking was the same thing page after page... why were these people serving turtle soup in the first place?

A thread that runs this long is going to be frayed eventually. You provide great information on the actual law of the land, which eventually will prevail. I don't know why these guys are barking at you- you have never said not to buy in Baja, only be informed of what you are buying. Would this information have changed my mind about buying/building in Rosarito, no. I wanted to live where I wanted to live (and I didn't spend more than I could afford to lose). My fight in this entire thread has been for the people of Rosarito and until you came along I was out of ideas and information on what to do next. It has not been the most pleasant two years of my retirement. On the other hand- everyday a handicapped family pulls up in their van to the Disabled Beach Access we put in on the concession and our family watches and smiles. It makes them feel good and now they "get it". Not many Mexicans (my own family at first too) can understand why you would spend money on something you don't want to profit from- but until the Mexican laws for federal zone land titles work properly, I simply have to. What Ramuma53 did was to show my family the path that will work to accomplish this Yankee's goal to protect the beach from development. And it happened in this thread. I'm on the Turtle's side.

[Edited on 3-14-2011 by Woooosh]

Hey Wooosh,

Personally, I think this is a really cool thing that you have done and are continuing to do. That's what is nice in retirement, we are allowed to give back and help others (without reward) as we do not need to scratch in the rat race for every penny to cover all the monthly bills. Well, hopefully, if we planned properly for retirement this is how it works.

The part about the beach being maintained for use by the disabled is close to my heart, as I have been in that category for the better part of my life. I previously have seen the video you made and the part about the disabled parking sign being removed etc. What have you guys done to the beach to make it more accessible for the disabled? Would love to come (and use) the beach there when I am around.

I too had briefly browsed the turtle soup thread but ended up moving on to something else at the time. A nice person here sent me a U2 today with the thread and now I will soon go back to read the full thread in detail to more fully understand some of the background that seems to be causing the snipping on this thread. I can't see where turtle soup has anything to do with National Land titles but hey, ya just never know, maybe there's a kernel of information in the thread that will be useful to me?

It is just so amazing to me that there are so many different versions/ideas/opinions and misinformation about the proper way to take title to a place in Baja. While I sort of wish it was as cut and dry as it is NOB I do like the lower prices resulting from all of this. I think the best part here that was stated somewhere is hey, if a person wants to come down to the area and buy, and, they are fully aware of the various issues they can then decide if they are willing to throw the dice and buy a place. It would be very unfortunate for a person to buy something and then become aware of the information. Not really fair to the person.

While I really don't need to know and maybe I will find some of the answers in the soup thread I just keep wondering why some here are so defensive about the topic. More so when it gets to the point of calling me a shill...where did that come from?? I understand why some have personality differences but this subject matter seems pretty straight forward and personality differences or not we should be able to have a civil banter about it, why not? Instead of the nonsense posts about this or that why not share valid information about the in's and out's of buying/owning or leasing a place in Baja? Just like the 10 year private lease terms...some here may not have known about this issue and it is a good one to know if you plan on paying for a place on land you are leasing. Same goes for having the correct FM that allows you to be able to legally enter into a contract, even a mere rental agreement.

The funny part, other than the casting of personal attacks and the put downs by some of the posters none of them have come out and said Ramuna53 is wrong in what he is saying. So maybe he is a bad guy with a checkered past that has correct information.

Who knows as I am just a shill according to the one guy here, go figure??

Thanks for all of the information you have provided and for what you are doing for the people in your area. It's fun to do the right thing, just because it's the right thing to do.

ramuma53 - 3-13-2011 at 09:28 PM

Dennis
The act that legally create an obligation, is the expresion of the partie´s will to be tied by that act conditions and obligations, then, you give formality to that act, by making it in writing and making it public, through a public notary. but those formalities only give certainty to the act or contract, the act that any court accept as an obligation is the one that both parties prove in any way accepted; that is why even a talked contract works and is accepted by a court, Mexican or American.
If you do not know about an issue, please do not talk about it.

Concerning rent contracts, at this time we have 49 years contracts and even 99 years contracts, that are perfectly legal, because those were signed, when the law allowed them, remember, a legal act, is obligated only by the law that was acting at the time it was made.

ramuma53 - 3-13-2011 at 09:52 PM

Jesse
At least you accept that something is good, but remember that I demonstrated with official documents that my property is a legal one, that all the accusations made against me, were false and you have never been able to prove, even a single fact you say, is true and that is why I started to call you ´Jesee the known liar´ but that was another story.
Also I challenged you to demonstrate that I work for anybody beside me and made it easy to you, by allowing you to at least demonstrate that I ever worked for anybody but myself and you never did it.
We all know you have ties to Hugo Torres Chavert and that is why you continually attack anything I say, even if it is completely illogic to do it, you may had problems with Mr. Ernesto Corona but I told you that if you have them, just take it to Tommy his son and he will very gladly give you what you deserve for attacking a dead man, his father.
So, if you keep telling lies and false accusations against me, people will notice your attitude, like fellow Nomad ELIVETIGAT8TOR did.
Please if you do not have anything useful for other people, just go somewhere else to say what you want.

DENNIS - 3-14-2011 at 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ramuma53
the act that any court accept as an obligation is the one that both parties prove in any way accepted; that is why even a talked contract works and is accepted by a court, Mexican or American.

Yeah...right. Tell me a foreigner in Mexico has a chance trying to prove the content of a verbal contract.

You are the stereotypical Mexican who relies on mystery to prove a point. Fact is all but useless here.

krafty - 3-14-2011 at 08:15 AM

Ramuma-si, we are in CDM-with a 100 yr. contract. See you guys, you don't know everything :smug:

DENNIS - 3-14-2011 at 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by krafty
Ramuma-si, we are in CDM-with a 100 yr. contract. See you guys, you don't know everything :smug:

I guess it's human nature to see and hear what serves your purpose.

ramuma53

mcfez - 3-14-2011 at 08:59 AM

This has been a real excellent topic, thanks to you. There has been a vast amount of good solid information coming out of this.

I'm just going to take the time to say "Thank you" for providing such great data and.......much of your time spent here. This is perhaps the most valuable topic ever listed here at the BN.

Wish there was someone like you over in the San Felipe area :cool:

krafty - 3-14-2011 at 10:48 AM

What do you mean, Dennis??

DENNIS - 3-14-2011 at 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by krafty
What do you mean, Dennis??

I mean you're putting too much faith in "trust." It's a nice thing to do, but it can quickly turn lethal, from a property rights point of view.
What people should have when getting involved with rented real estate here is not money....nor is it location-location-location. It's a highly developed sense of cynicism.

Also....you're begging the guidance of a predator and you know it, in spite of how badly you want to ignore it.

You're on your own.

mcfez - 3-14-2011 at 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by krafty
Ramuma-si, we are in CDM-with a 100 yr. contract. See you guys, you don't know everything :smug:

Exactly right krafty ......no one knows everything...you two.

JESSE - 3-14-2011 at 12:40 PM

Funny. A man like ramuma preys on the property of others, many of them american, and some people refuse to see it. If i was a foreign land owner here in Baja, i would consider people like ramuma a cancer that needs to be cut out. I find it very amusing to see some americans thanking a guy who has been responsible for stealing other americans properties for decades all over baja.

:rolleyes:

mtgoat666 - 3-14-2011 at 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE
Funny. A man like ramuma preys on the property of others, many of them american, and some people refuse to see it. If i was a foreign land owner here in Baja, i would consider people like ramuma a cancer that needs to be cut out. I find it very amusing to see some americans thanking a guy who has been responsible for stealing other americans properties for decades all over baja.

:rolleyes:

jesse:
certain nomads want to believe, they will believe, despite what you may say.
why does ramsanus53 post here? what's in it for him? is he here to search for targets to fleece?

wessongroup - 3-14-2011 at 03:47 PM

He might post here cuz its fun... I do... especially if you want to argue about issues... without having to go to court .... for some stupid "illegal PC"... crap...

The foundation and/or cornerstone of this issue... who owns the land...

Now what so hard about that one... who, what, where, when and why ... and support all by fact, pretty basic crap in my book...

Go get a bowl of clam chowder, turtle soup is getting a bit old...

DENNIS - 3-14-2011 at 04:23 PM

Right on, Wiley.

krafty - 3-14-2011 at 05:55 PM

Agreed-enough with the negativity allready

tripledigitken - 3-14-2011 at 05:58 PM

We drove by his property (San Buenaventura Hotel) this week. Sign falling down, one building with fire damage, and not one car parked outside.

Ken

Woooosh - 3-14-2011 at 06:22 PM

Quote:

The law is the law. Old or feeble, it's still your law and the people that know it best, win. It's that slippery slope of "don't worry about the law, we can work around it" attitude that got Mexican real estate in to trouble and blew it's credibility. If real estate laws need reform, reform them.

During the real estate boom and development years, didn't anyone in the Mexican gov't think they should re-work the laws as needed to assure proper title transfer, and then do the title transactions with all these investors correctly? No? They took the buyers' money first and then never got around to the real estate law reforms (because they already had their money, so why bother with it). We'll it did bite the buyers and made investing in Mexico a crap shoot at best. Ask The Donald. And it is the buyers who lost everything right? -and the sellers nothing? IMHO, that is an argument for changing laws, not complaining when the laws are correctly enforced later. It does suck people lost homes and land, but it's a young country and a young democracy.

mcfez - 3-14-2011 at 06:23 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2dJ6WmC***

Is this Larry French...the agent selling the unit to to you?

DENNIS - 3-14-2011 at 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
It does suck people lost homes and land, but it's a young country and a young democracy.

Democracy?? That's blind optimism. Nobody has any idea which cartel will be running the politicians in power in the next decade. This place is going to the highest bidder at the moment.

ramuma53 - 3-14-2011 at 08:14 PM

DENNIS
You sound like goner
Of course you can prevail here in Mexico; it is only a matter of knowing how, this thread is trying to express exactly that.
Here in Mexico facts are even more important that in a USA court, because you are guilty until proved innocent.
Of course I would like to have courts like in the USA where the judge only manage procedures, here the judge is everything and has too much power, but if you know how you can prevail as in any place in the world.
Don’t tell me that you feel the USA courts are perfect, there the guy with the most money win every time, here in Mexico the guy who know the most and have friends prevail even over people with a lot of money and try to do that in an American court.
Have alittle more confidence

ramuma53 - 3-14-2011 at 08:21 PM

mcfez
I have been providing information about San Felipe too, but they prefer to do it outside of this forum, I do not agree, but I respect their wish.
I know San Felipe is now in a turmoil, because the developers, developed the land without the proper permits and that is called Fraude Equiparado, I advise them to rain on the Estate District attorney´s parade, until he does what he is obligated by law to do, put some developers and public officials in jail and provide the permits to allow every buyer to have his property document, Americans and Mexicans equally.

ramuma53 - 3-14-2011 at 08:44 PM

Woooosh
Mexican laws are there and need very little reform; the problem, is the people who enforce them.
In your case, you have the clear legal reason, the law says you should prevail, but the people who should enforce the laws that say, that you have the reason, do not do it until you step on their toes and when you do it, they jump, when they feel that you are not going to believe crap, they will tell you the true, when you have the right counsel, they will avoid lying to you.
Baja is a Real Estate turmoil, because of the people who supposedly have to protect the buyer, instead of enforcing the existing laws, they dedicated themselves, to protect the sellers and make it easy for them to break the existing law, then to protect them from legal consequences and now they even try to hide the law and the fact that they protected the sellers on unlawful acts.
The problem will persist until they cannot do it anymore and public officials feel that it is more convenient to enforce the law than to protect the developers who are breaking the existing law and that will happen only when the buyer know that they have rights, they have power in their money and make clear that they will not have it anymore and to do that Americans need to know the real facts and need to quit feeling visitors only.
People here, attacking without a reason and without a cause, are just the developer’s advocates, that is the reason why they do not want people to know, that there is a way out of the problem and that way out, is sustained on real information and they do not want you to have it. Since they do not have any real reason and can not dispute the facts and laws, they attack the person who provide the information, trying to mislead people in to not believing what is being provided.
My reason to provide this information, is that I know that Rosarito area, need to legalize the Real Estate title chains, to be able to provide a good service and Rosarito will not be a boom again until they understand that the time to steal is over, now is business and any business need to respect the customer to prevail.
I myself discovered the flaws in the title chains, I provided the information to the government, they acted and then changed their minds, because they felt that it was easier to hide the problems than to solve them, they were wrong and took them 20 years to accept that fact.

ramuma53 - 3-14-2011 at 09:00 PM

Dennis
It is true that Mexico is not a real democracy, it is called a party dictatorship and a little group has all the power and not even the drug cartels challenge them; they control the presidency and the money.
That system has been in operation for 100 years now, it has kept Mexico under its potential, but has provided peace, and no country has been able to provide peace to their people for that long.
Mexico is not what you see in the news, statistics say it is a third world country with a lot of poor people, but we created the richest man in the world and poor people are fat, way too fat.
Mexico controlled its cartels for 80 years, until the new party took power changing what was running well for 80 years, the result, is what you see now and they need to put the genie back in the bottle and be sure they will but it back, they are in the way.
Mexico was only a passing through way for drugs on their way to USA, now Mexico is a user; drug cartels will go down with fire and soon, you will see. Why? Because the real business is not selling drugs, the real business is tourism and real estate and USA has a Baby boomer generation, waiting for their golden year’s home by the beach. Drug cartels will be on the way to profit with the real business and they will be cut down. Just wait for the next president, he will be a hard guy and will restore order with fire but silence.

wessongroup - 3-15-2011 at 07:54 AM

A sad point to bring up about those "Baby Boomers"... less the 25% have 401K's that will augment their retirement ....

And add in a double dip on "real estate"... which we are seeing at this time..

May make Baja and/or Mexico a bit harder for those who had a "dream" ....

Just saying....

ramuma53 - 3-15-2011 at 11:43 AM

wessongroup
Yes it will be harder for them and most of them lost some of their golden eggs on the last economical crisis, but our marketing experts say that those people will have it even harder on Florida or California and actually Baja will be seen as a better option for even more Baby boomers than before the crisis.
At this time they do not have consumer confidence and are holding theri big buys, but in one or two years, they will have to retire and do what they have been planning for 20 years, but then, they will be overlapped with 3 generations of Baby boomers that are coming in to retirement age and thinking the same thing and a demand wave will be created and the prices in every beach place will go up and up.
But if Mexico does not solve the security crisis, they will not come, or only a few hardened people will do it, so Mexico has only 2 years to solve the security crisis, to have a peaceful Mexico ready for when the Baby boomers regain the consumer confidence, needed to buy their beach house.
The alternative would be to have a Mexico full of gang battles all over the streets with the army all over the place and no tourist arround; if you see the economical volume that the drugs business provide, to the Mexican economy, it is only a very small fraction of the Real Estate business that would be created with a secure Mexico and that is the business where you will find the people who control Mexico.
Actually, the Real Estate business is a lot more profitable and secure than the drug business, also you can sleep better and that is the reason Mexico will clean their act in the very near future, money, money, money.

krafty - 3-15-2011 at 11:47 AM

sure hope you are right, ramuma

Woooosh - 3-15-2011 at 12:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by krafty
sure hope you are right, ramuma

me too. I understand Mexico is working with Medicare to see if some coverage can be extended into Mexico for expats over 65. Everyone wins. That alone would be a huge boost to real estate sales and would make living away form the border area less a risk for those with medical conditions.

DENNIS - 3-15-2011 at 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Woooosh
I understand Mexico is working with Medicare to see if some coverage can be extended into Mexico for expats over 65. Everyone wins.

Not everyone. Here's at least one reason that should probably never happen:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/10/23/60minutes/main5414...

ramuma53 - 3-15-2011 at 04:42 PM

Dennis
I thought that only Mexico was that ineficient, it is amazing, but knowing about the problem is the first step to correct it.

wessongroup - 3-15-2011 at 04:42 PM

ditto's

FWIW (For What It is Worth)

Gypsy Jan - 3-15-2011 at 04:47 PM

Dr. Perales of the Serena Healthcare Group and Bona Nova Hospital in Rosarito says that Medicare reimbursements for patients treated in Mexico will happen in the next five years.

DENNIS - 3-15-2011 at 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gypsy Jan
Dr. Perales of the Serena Healthcare Group and Bona Nova Hospital in Rosarito says that Medicare reimbursements for patients treated in Mexico will happen in the next five years.

That will be the end of affordable medical care in Mexico.

ramuma53 - 3-17-2011 at 03:37 PM

The true Rosarito History
Why history is important to the Real Estate business or how is it related???
In Baja, the disorder with the Title legal chain, has been a major one, where authorities and developers, that usually are the same people, have acted in a very irresponsible way; after all, Baja was mostly out of the way for a lot of years.
During the 1800s, a lot of people thought, that one way or the other, Baja will end up as part of the USA and just neglected it for decades.
The USA will, to get Baja, was not as big as the Mexican authorities thought and Baja never went to USA. The period 1879-1916 was the Porfirio Diaz dictatorship and many people Satanize him, but we have to remember, that he was the one who took Mexico from being a warlord battlefield to a Nation recognized internationally and with a strong international presence; just think that today, 90% of the actual railroad infrastructure Mexico has today, was built during his period.
He received a Mexico, just out of a failed empire, where a European Royal that came to be Mexico´s Emperor, was killed and a huge national disorder controlled; Mexico had no official maps and Governors acted like local kings.
He arranged with American companies, to measure and make topographical plans for Baja, the price sked, would be, half of the measured area and of course, the American companies, went all the way and measured the whole Baja, of course expecting to own half of Baja, those companies were known as ¨Compañias Deslindadoras¨ or Surveyor companies.
Porfirio Diaz just didn´t tell those companies, that the Mexican constitution forbid Foreign Companies to own land in Mexico, also the 1863 forbid the ownership of more than 2500 Has. And forbid ownership to Mexicans living in foreign countries, with the 1863 law specifically saying that any excess or transgression would return the land to National Property.
Also, most of the wealthy people in Baja, lived in San Diego or San Francisco, Tijuana and Ensenada were only small ranches and had received property titles from governors for favors made.
The Machado Family as we showed, lived in San Francisco, were born in San Diego California and they chose, to be recognized as Americans, not Mexicans and anyway got a title in 1879 given by Porfirio Diaz, against the then acting 1863 law.
The at the end of the Revolution that sent the Dictator Porfirio Diaz to France, they knew that the 2500 Has. land limit, would be enforced and promptly sold the 19,300 Has. Area Rosarito Ranch land, to a Mexican company named Cia. Explotadora de la Baja California, owned 99.8% by a Canadian, named Huge Francis Collins.
In 1917, as expected, the new president after the Revolution, promptly proclaimed officially (May 7, 1917, official Federation newspaper) that all the land in foreign hands in Baja was declared National property also known as National Land.
At that point in time, Rancho El Rosarito and most lands in Baja became National Land if we want to speculate that at any time they were not national property, this is not a theory argument, it is legal executed act by the Mexico President that nobody argued in court in time or formally and it became a legal true that nobody may contradict in a Mexican court.
Many people just ignored this very important legal fact and just went ahead acting like land owners, but legally they were not and since national Land is not subjected to appropriation by possession, the act of possession the land gave those peoples no legal right.
When Hugh Francis Collins was ordered to sell the Hotel Rosarito to Mr. Barbachano, he knew he had to protect all the land he bought and promptly gave the land to his wife, an Spanish actress named Daisy Moreno, expecting that her name would fool everybody in to think she was Mexican.
Actually Daisy Moreno Estate, claiming to own lands in Baja is named Moreno and Cia. Suscesores and incredibly have won legal cases against a lot of people lacking the information.
The Federal government made some mistakes also, like in 1947, they expropriated 4300 Has. To crate the Ejido Mazatlan, creating a problem, because it was created by a Presidential proclamation and Presidential proclamations must by nature to be exact or they do not exist and in this case it expropriated land from the wrong people, because the Machado Family acquired through a void title, then sold the land to a foreigner owned company and had absolutely no property to be expropriated and this mean, that the Ejido Mazatlan has absolutely no land.
To complicate things even more, in those years, the Federal Government made so many Ejidos that they had no surveyors to execute and measure the land that was going to be given to those peoples, or to check if those people receiving the ejidos were even Mexicans; this is the case for Ejido Mazatlan, because the guy sent by the Federal government to give them the land had the obligation to measure the land, notify the neighbors and allow them to contest any measurement; this to avoid mistakes and also check the Ejidatarios papers as Mexicans (They are American Cityzens, California Residents.
He just came to Tijuana and at the airport, executed several ejidos, without checking anything or even go to the surveyed lands and this is known as virtual execution of a presidential decree.
By Supreme Court precedents known as Jurisprudencia, a virtual execution is an inexistent execution and means that the legal act, do not exist or is legally acceptable and this mean, that the Ejido Mazatlan has not received absolutely no land in a legal and formal way.
This legal act was proved in Federal court and ratified by the Supreme Court in several cases by now, but the flag one is the case of CFE against the Ejido Mazatlan and the Electricity Federal Commission (CFE) won. (my company engineers were the CFE technical experts).
Then in November 7, 1952 a presidential proclamation was published in the Federation official newspaper, proclaiming the strip starting at Arroyo El Rosarito, just south of Rosarito, all the way to PUNTA PANDA in Ensenada, from the Highway to the Federal Zone, NATIONAL LAND.
Starting in 1950, the SRA started to grant National Land Titles in that strip, the first issued in 1951 were given to the area on El Morro, just south of Calafia now, then in 1992 to 1994, Venustiano Carranza, Playa Encantada, Castillos del Mar, Baja Mar, Playas de Tijuana and some more near Tijuana were issued and no more, but there are some procedures already paid that are just waiting to receive their title, Rancho Sanchez, known as Popotla, Rancho costa Azul in Rosarito beach and a few near Tijuana.
Specially take note, that Las Olas I and II are illegally there, over National land, specificly over the Playa Encantada procedue and any people who buy there, will have legal problems in the very near future.
All the other lots, DO NOT HAVE TITLE, they pretend to justify the property with prescripciones or sales made by Ejido Mazatlan or sales made by the Machado Family.
In 1992, I sent a letter to the SRA giving all the legal proof on the title chain legal status in Baja, I went to Mexico city and through some congressman exposed my case for Playa Encantada and obtained that a national Land office were sent to Baja, that is the cause that some titles were issued in Baja in that epoch.
Then when the PAN party won the Estate, they contacted me through one of their directives, Hector Castellanos Muños and understood the problem, telling me that the new PAN government and Governor Ruffo wanted to correct the problem at once and to do that, they commissioned one of the Governor aids named Carlos Reynoso Nuño (brother of one of my friends and fellow black belts) to come to Mexico City with me and collect all the legal proof and we did that; he collected everything and we returned to Baja, having convinced him fully.
While I waited for the land legalization campaign, Hector Castellanos convinced me to give a talk to the Tijuana Major and all of the Tijuana public officials at the COPLADEN public forum in the Tijuana city hall, I did in 1996 to 500 people, with all the city public officials and the then Tijuana major, now Congress Senator presence, it was a hot discussion, but with all the documentation, everybody went away with the new knowledge about the land legality in Tijuana and Rosarito.
A second public talk was given at the Tijuana Commerce Chamber to all the Real Estate Agents and Cadastral public officials; again everybody was convinced and even got samples of all kinds of private property tiles.
At that point everything looked like the land legalization will really happen with all the Governor Support and help.
Then Carlos Reynoso Nuño came to me and told me that the Governor thought that to legalize the land in the Rosarito area would be too problematic, because the developers would have to admit to the bank trusts that they did not have a legal title and because they would have to pay the Nation for the land, they thought that they already owned and told me to find a way to challenge the National land property issue.
I told them that it was impossible, because I had just demonstrated to them, the National Land property and there were no way, the opposite point was ever proved in any court and since the national land property, was not subjected to Time appropriation, the problem would just go unsolved until a President came and recovered the land or even worst, some people with money and power, bought the land and then take the houses from the buyers like in Punta Banda (It is happening at this time, and the ex PAN officials have got for themselves a lot of land).
They heard me and ordered me to just do it, including my then business partner and friend, Hector Castellanos; I refused because I was not working for the government or anybody and the next thing I knew, was that they started to try jail me, on any excuse, including inventing felonies from judges that did not exist. :fire:

Also the National Land commission was ordered to just close its doors and send all the documents as is, to Mexico City wher mostly disapeared.
A lot of people made public protest and convinced me to run for office as Congress Senator in the 2000 elections, I did and I got the highest number of votes for that party in that election, but did not won.

[Edited on 3-17-2011 by ramuma53]

wessongroup - 3-17-2011 at 04:19 PM

Thanks for sharing all of your knowledge, plus the time and effort... quite a word picture you create...

Maybe lost a battle, but not the struggle for "Land Reform in Mexico" ..

ramuma53 - 3-17-2011 at 07:55 PM

Not a lost battle at all, just an ongoing battle.
I found this video about the Wooosh problem and it show how the problem in Rosarito really is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCRflD9USro

After this and what you have been reading here, if you buy in Rosarito, you cannot say they took advantage of you and that is the objective here.

In Mexico we do not need any law reform, we have the laws in place since 1863, but the law enforcers are not doing a good job or are themselves in the developer business.
We also cannot talk about problems like this in the whole Mexico, only North Baja is a disaster area for Real Estate.

At this point, real estate sales, are in a historic low and it is that way, because the Mexican developer in Rosarito, following Hugo Torres Chavert´s lead, didn´t respect the buyer offering clear private property titles and public officials are more interested in getting money than in controlling an industry that badly need controlling; they need to prosecution for the bad ones and counsel for the majority.

Mr. Wooosh´s problem exist, only because the people who should be enforcing the existing laws, are doing their best to hide the fact that they themselves allowed the building to be built; of course, nature helped by taking away the beach, but we all know that the sand level in Rosarito, come and go in cycles, also that the CFE breakwater is modifying the coast, south of it, by allowing the sand to wash away.

Also, something funny must be going on there, that I am trying to find out, because if you or me, try to build something, just a few inches inside the Federal Zone, the inspectors would stop your building in minutes, fine you big time and even take you to court, I have seen that a lot of times. Why not in this very obvious case?????????????????????
Usually that can happen in Mexico when:
A drug related person, pay every time and has very good friends with the Federeles.

The place is helping in a way with drug activities and believe me, there are a lot of drug activities in Rosarito, now it is the last step in the drug ladder in the way to USA and the place were more drug laboratories are in Baja.

A person very well connected politically, move a lot of friends to get away with it, but it has to be on the Federal side and long term, not only local.

Any other way, the Federal zone inspectors, would long ago, close the place and demolish the building, it is too obvious and public.

Woooosh - 3-17-2011 at 10:22 PM

"National Land is not subjected to appropriation by possession, the act of possession the land gave those peoples no legal right."

" (To) legalize the land in the Rosarito area would be too problematic, because the developers would have to admit to the bank trusts that they did not have a legal title and because they would have to pay the Nation for the land, they thought that they already owned."
===

I didn't know for sure you couldn't squat-for-title on National Land, but figured as much. Has anything changed since 2000 to move things in the direction of straightening out the Rosarito Beach land titles? Calderon and Rosarito Beach mayor Robles met in Mexico City and agreed to move forward on the boardwalk (Malecon) to boost tourism. I would think that project would draw a pretty good line down the sand that no one should develop across.

Thanks for the public relations pitch on that video. I need all the help I can get. That tower is owned by Aries Management of Escondido, CA through it's Mexico corporation- Grupo Aries. They were silly enough to put a "For sale" sign on it during construction in 2006. The phone number led back to Aries. An American professional athlete is the main investor in "Playa Linda Rosarito". The house directly across the street from the tower is owned by a Rosarito University professor- and he couldn't/didn't stop the tower from going in and had thought he had an ocean view for life. I do believe this project got a nod from someone. I think this video showed them what "transparency" is though. I don't think they know how to handle this tower. If they do the new boardwalk around it, it would be a statue to the corruption and it would be in peoples face every day. Grupo Aries would be rewarded for breaking the law and be able to sell the only condos west of the Rosarito boardwalk at a premium. crime pays.

We met with the head of SEMARNAT in Rosarito soon after the video came out. When I told him it already had 1000 views, he asked how I knew that. I told him there is a counter on it. I asked him why an American retiree had to fight with his fists to protect the beach for the people of Rosarito when the family holds the 15 year Federal Title?

[Edited on 3-18-2011 by Woooosh]

ramuma53 - 3-18-2011 at 11:17 AM

Soulpatch
It is called ´Prescripcion´ and you have several kind of ´prescriciones´:
´Positiva´ if you on the side of having demonstrated the possession for 5 years, acquired it through a contract, but it was not formalized according to the law; you go to the judge and ask to be declared owner by prescripcion positive, if nobody contest your claim, the judge rules that you are the owner.
´Negativa¨ if you do not have any paper or way to acquire the land, you prove your possession of 10 or more years, then you go to the judge and ask to be declared owner by ´prescripcion negativa´, if nobody contest your claim by proving they are the legal owners, the judge rules that you are the owner.
If you prove that you have possessed the land for 20 or more years, even if you acquired the possesion by committing a crime like violence, but you were never prosecuted for the crime if nobody contests your claim by proving they are the legal owners, the judge rules that you are the owner.
The law says that National land is not acquirable by any other mean but a National land title issued by the national land office and specifically says it is not acquirable by prescripcion of any kind, it is not acquirable by any judge ruling and any other authority but the National land office; many people try to isolate themselves by proving possession for another people and then getting the land from him by suing him for a debt, but it doesn’t work forever and this is the case of most of Rosarito.
Concerning foreigners, remember that, the Mexican Constitution, does not allow, the not Mexicans, to own land on the forbidden strips of the borders and the coasts; that is why the fideicomiso was invented; through the Fideicomiso, the foreigner does not own the land, the bank does, but the bank is obligated to give the foreigner the possession for the life of the fideicomiso and is at this time the most secure way for a foreigner to have temporal dominium over a Mexican property in the forbidden strips.
There are several ways used today to go around that absolute prohibition beside the Fideicomiso; you can acquire the land though a Mexican company with the condition that you ask for permission by the Estate Department and this has been one of the most used by American developers to invest in the Mexican forbidden strips, but this method is not limited by the size of the corporation or land lot.
Concerning National Land, you cannot acquire it by any other mean and it is a federal heavy criminal felony to buy it from other sources or acquire it though a judge´s ruling, because the judge is obligated by law, to check if it is National land and if they do not do it, as is usual, his ruling over National Land is void absolutely (like most of Rosarito) and it is even a federal crime to possess national Land without the proper official permit and this is the case of most of the Rosarito developments.

ramuma53 - 3-18-2011 at 11:50 AM

Woooosh
For what I know, the land, that they were planning to use, for the side walk in Rosarito was sold by the National Land office, to a guy from Mexico city named Jorge Duran in 1992 and that is the land between the Ejido Mazatlan (????) and the Federal Zone and since I have surveyed that area several times trying unsuccessfully to locate the Ejido Mazatlan line border, we were only able to suppose that it is the two blocks beside the beach, from Renes to CFE.
It was difficult to establish this because the official plans for the Ejido Mazatlan are a technical joke, absolutely useless to establish a exact location, the best we could establish using Satellite positioning, was that the Ejido border is 1800 mts. inside on the sea and that, only because they tried to fix the Ejido Position by making a map in 1992, that say that the official fixed point, is a Federal Zone marker 28B, but if you use it, then the other side of the Ejido, go in on the sea 1800 mts, something impossible; also we found out that the Federal Zone markers were established in 1976 and it is impossible that a plan created in 1947 uses a 1976 marker to establish the fixed location.
In other words, everything that concern Ejido Mazatlan is crooked or false or nonexistent, especially their official plans and that is why they lost against the CFE or Castillos del Mar or El Oasis where we were the technical experts.

This mean, that all the lots on the beach front side, in Rosarito Beach are inside this National Land procedure and will be subjected to returning the possession to the National Land buyer and anyone who claim that he acquired it by any other mean, will be subjected to a criminal case for possessing National land without a permit or allowance by the legal owner.- Do you think this is a farfetched affirmation? Just ask the guy that climed to own the Ánimale night club´ on Rosarito Downtown, beside the Hotel Rosarito, the guy who said he was the owner, ended up arrested and avoided being prosecuted by the Federal police, by signing a contract with this guy Jorge Duran in Mexico city a couple of years back.

This mean, that even Hotel Rosarito and Oceana and the other Torres group´s buildings, have legal problems coming for being over National Land already oowned by other people, that will shake Rosarito in the near future, problems that will leave Punta Banda as only the tip of the iceberg.

The problems already started and the developers are trying desperately to cover them up, but as you say, it is impossible and that is why Rosarito has to correct that problem now, not two years in the future becuse in that case, the demand for living units in two years, will just jump Rosarito and go to other parts of Mexico without the land legality problem.

That is why Las Olas I and II, Oceana and all the other Torres Chavert buildings offer ´in house title insurance´ and I do not think buyers would buy that one, in any other place in the world, but they do in Rosarito.

Woooosh - 3-18-2011 at 01:15 PM

"The Rosarito Beach Condo-Hotel includes 192 one-bedroom, 65 two-bedroom and 14 penthouse units, all fully furnished. Financing is available in-house and through Finance North America. Stewart Title insurance is offered for a secure investment."
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0EIN/is_2007_Feb_28/a...

The reason people "buy into" the in-house Title insurance at the Rosarito Beach Hotel Condo project is because Stewart Title is one of the most trusted and common title insurance companies in the USA. Did they just use the same name or is the same company? Before the Gringo Gazette North was run out of town by Torres, I remember an article that said a "preliminary approval " letter from Stewart Title letter was being shown to investors, not an assurance that title insurance would or could be provided by them. If I was shown Stewart Title papers I would be pleased as a buyer and likely not question it. And once again the name "Finance North America" comes up... the same people who offered the illegal condo tower near me for sale, which was built directly on top of an old foundation surrounded by water- as you can see in the video you referenced.

ramuma53 - 3-18-2011 at 01:32 PM

Woooosh
If you dig deep enough, you will find a company named Los Gatos based in Caiman Island for all the Torres developments and that would be the final company resposible, while I hope any buyer can recover from that company any money, when the fireworks start.

Stewart Title insurance has an office in the Tijuana twin Towers and they asked me for all the information a few years back, they took it to a Texas meeting where they talked about it with all Stewart title insurance people, but they have contineud to issue insurance papers with a lot of limitations and the problem is in the fine print in those insurances.

The same thing is happening at Maravia in La Paz, they publicly have an American Title Insurance and the property has not legal title, they have a sale based in a Colonial title, that is worth nothing, they are actually trying to buy the land from the National Land office, to cover the title insurance conditions and that mean, the Title insurance companies, are issuing the title insurance without legal titles, based only on the developer capacity to pay them back, in case of problems, but putting the condition for the developers to get the legal title.
I don´t think that is fair for the buyers at all, because they trust the title insurance to require the legal title.

Title Insurance

Dave - 3-18-2011 at 01:33 PM

Worthless.

I would expect that the insurer would exclude any title defect such has been proposed here. :rolleyes:

Read the fine print.

ramuma53 - 3-18-2011 at 06:34 PM

Dave
Title insurance is actually a tool, to get the customer´s confidence and a cheap one; if you are a developer, that will develop a 30 acre land lot, your title insurance will cost you US$5,000.00 and then use that confidence tool, to convince people to buy 275 houses at US$175,000.00 each, getting USD$48´125,000.00 while you invested only USD$100,000 for the first house and build the rest with the customer advances, on a land lot that he bought at USD$3.00 dlls/m2 and a total price of US$450,000.00 because it is National land disguised as private property through legal maneuvers.
Just ask the Torres group how much they spent in buying the lots for their towers and you will find where the big scam is and it is not only the Torres group, they are only the example, there are 200 developments in the Rosarito coast that are in the same situation.
You will find that they got the land by extremely small amounts, from the city government or the ejido or just incredible contracts, because they know they were buying land problems and they were betting on Hugo Torres Chavert political power, to hold them up against any legal problems, but guess what, they have not been able to do it, the problems are there and nearing the legal end to start having legal actions and guest who will pay at the end? THE BUYERS LIKE IN PUNTA BANDA.
Who will be discredited? Mexico like in Punta Banda.
But, why the American Consulate did not advised the Punta Banda customers to get out before the problem exploded? They had the correct information about the problem in advance; I personally gave it to them and have letters from them to prove it.
Only because they believed the Baja governor that no problem would explode that may harm the American buyers, and he said that, because his cousin was the Punta Banda developer. You know what happened after that and how Mexico got discredited.
Now we are on the road to 200 Punta Banda exactly alike problems and they keep denying the problem and hoping that they will hold the problem with political power.
What I do not want is that Mexico get 200 times discredited as last time.

GLNaeve - 3-19-2011 at 01:55 PM

Ramuma53
This topic of discussion appears to be centered around Rosirito Beach. Could we expand the area to Profepa, problem in BCS, perhaps Mulege area. I too have some questions which are specific to that area, but fit in this topic.
"Fidio" holder in Coyote Bay, adjacent to the Federal Zone.
Thanks

Cypress - 3-19-2011 at 02:48 PM

Thank you Lord! I was sold on relocating down on the Sea of Cortez side of Baja. Specifically the Mulege area. At that time, 2007-08, it was a sellers market. No problem. But I'm a fisherman. Problem! The gill netters have moved fishing or should I say catching off the table. Sure, you can catch a mess of fish, if you're a fisherman( Pompano, Pescadore), but the reality is~ no fish. Why? Gill nets/long lines. Thank goodness I have fishing connections in areas where long lines and gill nets are illegal. Wish I could say the same about the Sea of Cortez.

krafty - 3-19-2011 at 03:10 PM

Ramuma-would this not be like slitting their own throats? The guv. is trying to talk up buying down here to Americans, why would they want to kick them out? Who would invest down here if that happened? The ex pats down here do a big service by spending our pesos here, especially with the recent fail of tourism. Am i missing something?

Cypress - 3-19-2011 at 04:57 PM

krafty, Slitting their own throats? Are you missing something? No. You've pretty much got it figured-out.

Woooosh - 3-19-2011 at 09:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by krafty
Ramuma-would this not be like slitting their own throats? The guv. is trying to talk up buying down here to Americans, why would they want to kick them out? Who would invest down here if that happened? The ex pats down here do a big service by spending our pesos here, especially with the recent fail of tourism. Am i missing something?

You can't grow the real estate market without it being fixed. Trump Baja and Punta Banda make it hard for people to trust right now. Fix the paperwork. It sounds like there is a peso formula for violators to buy the national land back from the government.

krafty - 3-20-2011 at 07:39 AM

Why would these investors, such as in the Trump debacle, throw their money at something that is not even there? duh :?:

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