BajaNomad - TIME TO MOVE TO BAJA SUR

TIME TO MOVE TO BAJA SUR

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Iflyfish - 6-19-2011 at 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
No! We the People caused it!
We failed to stop the use of Drugs!

Skeet I think history proves that we will never stop the use of drugs. Every society in the history of human civilization has had its intoxicants, the natural human desire to get high will not change. The drug problem will never be solved until we stop pretending it is a war and start managing it with intelligence: legalize drugs to eliminate the profit motive, focus on education and treatment, and stop treating drug users as criminals.

Iflyfish - 6-19-2011 at 12:14 PM

Ken

"Skeet I think history proves that we will never stop the use of drugs. Every society in the history of human civilization has had its intoxicants, the natural human desire to get high will not change. The drug problem will never be solved until we stop pretending it is a war and start managing it with intelligence: legalize drugs to eliminate the profit motive, focus on education and treatment, and stop treating drug users as criminals."

Very well said. Jimmy Carter came out AGAIN, after 40 years, to AGAIN share your view on this issue.

Dennis. I think there is again a discourse on the subject happening in the mainstream press. The recently released International Report, signed by X Latin American heads of state, among others, Ron Paul discussing this with the Republicans and Carter coming out about this are all in the news. This issue needs serious discussion as the cost of this "War" is now under question not to mention the wrong headed approach to the problems associated with drug use. Most recreational drug users do not have legal problems except those associated with being busted. After being busted comes problems obtaining employment etc. and down they go.

I have for the past 40 years felt like I was talking to exactly what Dennis posted.

Ron Paul recently came out as the winner of a straw pole and his Libertarian views on the subject are very clear. I saw him ask a group of Republicans "If heroin was legalized how many of you would use it?" the response was stunning silence and then applause. Getting behind legalizing drugs could bring a lot of dissaffected liberals, who see Obama as having abandoned their causes, as being too centerist or conservative, might jump ship and support a Libertarian like Paul, who advocates keeping the government out of the bedroom, woman's uteruses and the decision of what intoxicants to use. These are very important issues to many people.

Iflyfish

DENNIS - 6-19-2011 at 12:28 PM

Right or wrong, it will be next to impossible to gather a quorum vote for legalization.
Right or wrong, who wants to stick their neck out?
------------

"I saw him ask a group of Republicans "If heroin was legalized how many of you would use it?" the response was stunning silence and then applause."
----------

Probably the same response to a question such as, "If Scotch was illegalized, how many of you would stop drinking it?"

I doubt there's enough time left in my life to see a satisfactory solution to this problem.

Skeet/Loreto - 6-19-2011 at 01:18 PM

Dennis: I thonk you are right about having enough time left.

I too must accept the fact that the use of Drugs will never be stopped, If maybe we could do the same thing that my Generation did and allow drinking, make punishment for overuse and Hurting other people a way to go to Jail.

In my mind and experience I have trouble tying the Boose into the Drugs as the affect it has on people, the Enviorment it creates, the Illegal Money involved etc.

Could it be that the Drug problem will become so bad that we will become so weak that another country will take us over.
It is hard for me to think that all these ole Texas Cowboys will let anything Happen to Texas.

Most all of the Murders and Assaults, Women and Men killing their Children are where Drugs have been involved

.

Iflyfish - 6-20-2011 at 11:39 AM

Skeet wrote:
"Dennis: I thonk you are right about having enough time left.

I too must accept the fact that the use of Drugs will never be stopped, If maybe we could do the same thing that my Generation did and allow drinking, make punishment for overuse and Hurting other people a way to go to Jail."

I am impressed that you have taken in some of the information presented here regarding drug use and abuse and how best to address it. We all agree that there are very serious problems involved and the current approach is not resolving those problems and may actually be making them worse.

It is very hard to change ones perspective, particularly as we age. I am impressed with this latest post as it demonstrates some flexibility in your thinking. It is also prima facia evidence to me and I hope others that change can occur if issues are addressed clear enough and long enough. My 92 year old father in law also makes the point about Prohibition of Alcohol and the parallels that we see in the current Prohibition that makes criminals out of millions of people, gangsters out of thousands, and creates a state of terror for us all. Not to mention the enormous resources, both economic and personal, we are throwing away at the current march to folly that we call the “War on Drugs”.

I also believe that Dennis is right about us perhaps not living long enough to see these changes happen. I also had my doubts about the ending of racial segregation (to the extent it has happened), the ending of the Viet Nam War, the success of the anti-smoking movement, and the acknowledgement of the civil rights of those of us who are born gay/lesbian/transgendered. There is always a cultural lag between awareness and change, that lag is often played our over decades. It is very hard to see solutions to problems like these and live through the suffering that goes on before real social change takes place. I believe that regardless of the outcome in my lifetime that it is important to lend our voice to those issues that we feel passionate about. As Burke so eloquently said it “all that is necessary for the final triumph of evil over good is that good men do nothing”. What we can do is speak our minds and as single instruments are learned by individuals together they form an orchestra.

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 6-21-2011 at 06:52 AM

This is how cigarette packs will look in the near future and is how one can deal with an addictive substance using social stigma. This is part of how we should be dealing with drug abuse. Have you seen the faces and teeth of long term tweekers? Tobacco use has gone way down in the USofA. Tobacco companies have turned their sights on the emerging international markets. Drugs don't go away, people's attitudes toward them changes.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405270230393670457639...

Iflyfishsmokefree

Bajatripper - 6-21-2011 at 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MitchMan
There are some really smart people in this forum, but all we human beings seem to be expert in one area and utter fools and marooons in other areas. The one thing I find fortifying is that most of us Nomads have our hearts in the right place. To me, if a person’s heart is in the right place, well, that is all that matters to me in the final analysis.

The discord comes from seeing things differently. Skeet is really for the betterment of our human character (a virtue in itself) and is rightfully upset and impatient with what he sees through his eyes. Goat sees through the BS and major errors of the opposition and rebuts valiantly, consistently, whole heartedly, and relentlessly as a good warrior would. Cypress wants things to be better than they are, and is rightfully upset that we are not, as a country, getting there. Bajagringo observes the discourse and chimes in with his two cents, careful not to offend anyone, which reflects a calm, mature wisdom that I think we all suspect he has. Bajatripper studies and has supported his contentions revealing to me that he has done his homework and research so as not to posit trash but to support his contentions which to me reflects his intellectual integrity; a form of civil responsibility to you and me.

Where things go hay wire is that we all have become so adversarial that the dialogue deteriorates to ultimately taking sides and taking pot shots at each other instead of objectively analyzing the situation and discussing solutions. Such adversarial positioning prevents objective scrutiny of one’s own side, leads to blindness of one’s own guilty contributions to the problem. We, as a country, cannot come to a consensus. That is exactly what has stalled this country. That is exactly what has happened in congress. That is exactly what will bleed this country of its ability to succeed.

What is materially needed are objectivity, citation of facts and circumstances supporting sound logical, reasonable, realistic contentions and solutions. Pot shots at the opposition will get us nowhere and will just widen the divide which is on its way to conquering us all.

[Edited on 6-19-2011 by MitchMan]

Damn, Mitchman, with sweet words like those for everyone, you should really run for public office.

You aren't, by chance, the Ordy I knew on the USS Indy in Japan in the early 90s? Your thinking reminds me of him.

Bajatripper - 6-21-2011 at 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto

In my mind and experience I have trouble tying the Boose into the Drugs as the affect it has on people, the Enviorment it creates, the Illegal Money involved etc.

.

Skeet, I can't put into words how impressed I am with your latest posts, some trully progressive thinking taking place in that old noggin' of yours. Who says you can't teach an Old Koot new tricks?

Just one minor point I'd like to comment on; Skeet would almost be old enough to remember when booze was treated much like drugs are today, complete with Congressional legislation criminalizing its use, etc. And, just as now with the cartels making unseemly profits from this illegal status, ditto in the past. Trafficking in illegal booze is supposedly the source of the Kennedy family fortune.

Now imagine a country where much of those currently-illegal profits were taxed. Better yet, since it would be a Sin Tax, we could make that "taxed-the-hell-out-of." Now, there's a tax that's bound to be popular with EVERYONE (I know I wouldn't complain any about having to [theoretically speaking, of course] pay it).

I dare say we'd have enough money to finance both the wars-for-resource-adquisitions in the Middle East AND that quasi-socialist-regulated-capitalist state I'm personally so fond of.

My next drink, I want to remember to toast your suddenly-clear thinking, Skeet, or whoever you are (damn, I just couldn't resist).

Iflyfish - 6-21-2011 at 12:00 PM

Mitchman, I meant to quote your post, which I greatly admire and appreciate.

Very well said indeed. Differences are inevitable, what we do have is control over how we frame and respond to it.

We have many very important issues to address in the USofA as we move forward. Reasonable people can and do disagree. A full hearing on the subject allows us all to learn.

I also appreciate what you have said about Skeet's assertion of the significance of values and his observations about some of the changes he has observed that are indeed eroding our civility. I have failed to acknowledge that perspective as you have done so well.

Great post.

Iflyfish

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajatripper

Quote:

[Edited on 6-21-2011 by Iflyfish]

Skeet/Loreto - 6-21-2011 at 01:13 PM

IFish with Worms!!

There are many things in this ole World today that are troublesome to me as a Citizen; I think that I will try to list them; Keep in mind my references are from Lifes Experience.

Major Problem for the People of this Great Country.

The Lack of Parental Control and teaching our Children the Basics of Life.
Turning over to the Schools and Govt. Agencies our Responsibility.
When I as a small child would walk home from school I was taught by my other school mates and parents to be Careful of the RattleSnakes which Hung around the sides of the Paths.
This taught me to be OBSERVANT and to see what is going on around me.
Now days the use of handheld instruments are bEcoming and ADDICITON.
This Addicition is far worst than Boose or DOPE!

I observe Mothers and Fathers opening the back door of the Car allowing their Children to step out, sometimes very close to Traffic while still operating their IPOD. They never look up and Observe!!

If we look further ahead I can forsee in the Future that when a Child is Born they will have an Antenna implanted in the top of their head. This will allow the GPS to direct them to the Toliet!!

Over the years Boose has taken its Toll in the lives of our Citizens but for me What I have seen that is just as bad is "Gambling".

I was in Montana when Kino came in Big and watched as Familes became sperated due to the Parents leaving them in the Car while Mom and Pop when in to Gamble.

Here in the State of Texas Casino Gambling with Money is aganist the Law. Why?? Because the Baptist will not let it be voted in! Thank the Good Lord.

So now to get down to DOPE. I do not think we can put Boose and DOPE. together.
Over the years People have to some extent be able to Control BOOSE, but DOPE with its basic CRiminality is different, even if we make POT Legal, just look at what happens when Youngsters somke a little Pot then want to try something different.

I am sure many of you have seen the results. Coke, Crack, Extasey, Window-Pane etc.

The use of and over use of BOOSE costs a Person with their Life and Sickness as they get older.
DOPE causes the Death and Sickness right away and seems to spread to those around a person Faster.

Fishing with Insects; I think, sadly, that the only solution to DOPE is the complete changeing of our Society,

Gob of Worms

Bajamatic - 6-21-2011 at 02:27 PM

Alcoholism and Drug abuse are both diseases. Trying to argue that one is better than the other probably points to a drinking problem.

Cypress - 6-21-2011 at 03:09 PM

I'm one sick puppy! :yes:

Skeet/Loreto - 6-21-2011 at 03:45 PM

Matic.

Please Define "Drinking Problem"?

There are still areas here in the Texas Panhandle that are DRY.
When I was going to school here in Amarillo, there was no Drinking problem or DOPE Problem.

Why did we as youngsters not have the problems??

Bajamatic - 6-21-2011 at 04:45 PM

Which youngster are you referring to? I was talking about an 80 year old who seems to think alcoholism isn't really an issue, but pot smoking, with its basic criminality, is a major societal disaster.

I was under the impression that you weren't a big fan of experts and fact-mongers who lack actual practical experience with that which they study. Maybe you should partake in a field experiment before you go claiming knowledge.

drarroyo - 6-21-2011 at 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajamatic
Alcoholism and Drug abuse are both diseases. Trying to argue that one is better than the other probably points to a drinking problem.

. Jajajajajajaajajja

Skeet/Loreto - 6-21-2011 at 05:08 PM

Matic: I was talking about what I have seen and experienced over the 80 years of Life. Nothing More.

I think that as Drinking progressed over the years we have been able to somewhat control its use.
If you check the Criminal records you will see that the more violent Crimes are committed by the DOPERS. That is Facts not what some Stat Monger is saying,

It seems today that the Youngster who does not have or did not have a good realationship with his parents is more prone to do DOPE!

It is the Parents we need to work on. But they too are involved in DOPE so resist any change in their Life.

How Sad!

Bajamatic - 6-21-2011 at 05:14 PM

whats the difference between your stat and a stat that says the population of bluefin tuna is nearly extinct? Just curious how to see the difference between facts presented by enviro-nuts, or whatever you called them, and actual social and biological scientists. Because I'm getting confused here.

Also, more people go to jail for drunk driving than anything. FYI.

[Edited on 6-22-2011 by Bajamatic]

MitchMan - 6-21-2011 at 06:16 PM

Alcohol and dope are both very strong and addictive intoxicants. The physical and phsychological differences are not enough to put each in different categories of evil or capability for damage. The only significant difference is social, that is, alcohol is simply more socially acceptable, that's why it is legal. To say that the differences between alcohol and dope with regard to their addictive and intoxication efect is sufficient enough to merit putting alcohol in the category of "acceptable" and dope as "unacceptable" is plainly and simply an error and is no more than a gross rationalization.

Skeet, I don't mean to disagree with you as to the deleterious affect of intoxicants to our society, I just disagree with arguments that sets alcohol apart from dope representing alcohol as not as bad as dope. I see them as substantially equivalent, eccept for the socal acceptability of alcohol and all the ramifications of that.

[Edited on 6-22-2011 by MitchMan]

oxxo - 6-21-2011 at 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajamaticJust curious how to see the difference between facts presented by enviro-nuts, or whatever you called them,

I call them farsighted, environmentally conscious patriots.

DENNIS - 6-21-2011 at 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MitchMan
I just disagree with arguments that sets alcohol apart from dope representing alcohol as not as bad as dope. I see them as substantially equivalent, eccept for the socal acceptability of alcohol and all the ramifications of that.

I'm not joining the arguement. I just thought this would be a good place to ask; Many imbibers tend to drink in moderation. Many.
Can the same be said about drug users?
Just curious.

BajaGringo - 6-21-2011 at 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

I'm not joining the arguement. I just thought this would be a good place to ask; Many imbibers tend to drink in moderation. Many.
Can the same be said about drug users?
Just curious.

I used to think not but a good friend (who is a teaching physician at UCLA Medical Center) assures me that there are lots of "functioning" drug users out there; occasional / recreational users of everything from weed to coke to heroine.

I had been under the assumption that most drugs stronger than weed were highly addictive and avoiding that addiction would be very difficult.

The problem he tells me is that we rarely hear about those who manage the balance of drug usage / functioning in society because of the stigma involved.

He also said that a surprise drug testing sweep of LAPD, county court judges, Sheriff deputies, probation officers and high ranking, Los Angeles elected officials would raise a lot of eyebrows.

Who knows...

:cool:

[Edited on 6-22-2011 by BajaGringo]

DENNIS - 6-21-2011 at 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
assures me that there are lots of "functioning" drug users out there; occasional / recreational users of everything from weed to coke to heroine.

Ron......I should have been more clear. My question concerned the degree of use during a specific episode.
Drinkers may sip slowly from a glass of wine in a two hour period, but I'm wondering if drug ingestion is regularly "sipped" in a moderate way throughout an event or is an abbreviated "high" out of the question?

Bajatripper - 6-21-2011 at 11:28 PM

Quote:

I'm not joining the arguement. I just thought this would be a good place to ask; Many imbibers tend to drink in moderation. Many.
Can the same be said about drug users?
Just curious.

Absolutely! I had an uncle who only smoked pot on special social occasions. But he was a hard-core alcoholic every day of his adult life, one of those people who could drink all day and yet, didn't look drunk.

Iflyfish - 6-21-2011 at 11:58 PM

Having worked in both Mental Health and Corrections I can assure you that there are indeed recreational users of drugs of all classes who are not addicted, this includes Alcohol, Marijuana, Heroin, Cocaine, Amphetamnes, the works. Use does not equal addiction. I can also assure you that use of these drugs is not tied to a particular social class. I have learned this from my life experience Skeet as well as read extensively on the subject including many studies that support these conclusions.

I am not recommending any of these drugs to anyone. There are obviously some people who are prone to addicion due to differences in how these drugs are metabolized and how often they are used. The addict is often the last to know that their used of these drugs in having a negative affect on home life, work or significant relationships. When any of these substances create a problem in any of these areas then one can consider oneself to have a problem with these substances. If one either has difficulty stopping (either stopping at a predetermined amount, or not being able to spend significant time with out the subsance) the use of these substances then there is a problem or an addiction. Addictions are classified in stages and there is a significant literature on that subject.

For some their genetic dispositon affects their capacity to metabolize Alcohol. Many Native Americans and Japanese are not able to metabolize Alcohol in the way that it is normally metabolized and their is a heightened predisposition to alcoholism.

There are people who for constitutional or emotional reasons are prone to emotional instability or psychosis. These people can have a significant problem with marijuana.

People with ADHD who are treated with Adderall are LESS likely to abuse other drugs as evidenced by a recent Harvard Medical School study, something like 84% less likely. People with ADHD tend to self medicate and when they have an appropriate medication that activates the frontal lobes they no longer have a need to medicate with other drugs.

In my own Clinical Practice I always asked people to tell me what their drug of choice was. This choice can often be a clue as to what area of the brain a person is trying to mediate. People with over active cingular gyrus, the part of the brain that when it becomes over active causes people to "get stuck on things" tend to like marijuana as it can calm these areas of the brain by generating what in Electroencephalogical terms is called an Alpha State.

The most common forms of ADHD, childhood and adult, find that the stimulants like Ritalin and Adderall make them feel normal, not high, not stimulated but NORMAL. This is because areas of the brain, often the frontal lobes, which DEACTIVATE under concentration, actually engage under concentration when blood flow is increased to those areas by the use of these stimulant medications. For an excellent elaboration of these findings read Daniel Amen, M.D. You can find his website on the internet. He is the author of Change Your Brain, Change Your Life. He has identified six subtypes of ADD and the various medication regimes most useful in their treatment.

My point is that our brains differ and some people can handle these substances better than others while some are addicted as a result of very little use.

Iflyfishwithartificialfliescausetherealonesarehardtokeeponmyline

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

I'm not joining the arguement. I just thought this would be a good place to ask; Many imbibers tend to drink in moderation. Many.
Can the same be said about drug users?
Just curious.

[Edited on 6-22-2011 by BajaGringo]

Pescador - 6-22-2011 at 05:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oxxo

I call them farsighted, environmentally conscious patriots.

Do I note a strong biased position here, as the "Teapublicans" are all right wing zealots?

And you might not like calling farsighted, environmentally conscious patriots "Left wing environmental tree hugging wackos" ?

Skeet/Loreto - 6-22-2011 at 06:21 AM

Gentlemen and Scholars:
In referring to the diferances in Boose and DOPE I was eluding to the Results of Boose aa opposed to the results of DOPE.

It seems to me in my years that Criminal Acts are more serious with DOPERS. Am I wrong.?? It has shown that DWI's do deter drivers.
What deters DOPERS? Does not appear anything can deter a Druggie when he gets the stuff in his system.

It is difficult for me to believe that if DOPE is Legalized that 50 years from now our Society will be the same and that DOPE will be used like Boose.'That the same effects on our Society will occurr.

I think that the use of DOPE is killing more Children than the Use of Boose. What say you???

Iflyfish - 6-22-2011 at 07:13 AM

Here is a site that lays out statistics on morbidity in the USofA. I think you will find this interesting as you consider the relative dangers various drugs.

My recommendation is that we all eat more fruits and vegetables and exercise more. For recreation pick a poison that you can tolerate in moderation and if its use starts to cause problems in your life, decrease or stop use of these substances.

Love the video! I have watched mice in Skinner boxes choose electrical self stimulation of the pleasure centers of the brain over food and sex, they hit the lever till they died in their tracks. This is the underlying neurology of addiction, rats don't have moral values, as far as we can determine.

http://drugwarfacts.org/cms/?q=node/30

(2000 - leading causes of death) "The leading causes of death in 2000 were tobacco (435,000 deaths; 18.1% of total US deaths), poor diet and physical inactivity (400,000 deaths; 16.6%), and alcohol consumption (85,000 deaths; 3.5%). Other actual causes of death were microbial agents (75,000), toxic agents (55,000), motor vehicle crashes (43,000), incidents involving firearms (29,000), sexual behaviors (20,000), and illicit use of drugs (17,000)."
Correction: According to a correction published by the Journal on January 19, 2005, "On page 1240, in Table 2, '400,000 (16.6)' deaths for 'poor diet and physical inactivity' in 2000 should be '365,000 (15.2).' A dagger symbol should be added to 'alcohol consumption' in the body of the table and a dagger footnote should be added with 'in 1990 data, deaths from alcohol-related crashes are included in alcohol consumption deaths, but not in motor vehicle deaths. In 2000 data, 16,653 deaths from alcohol-related crashes are included in both alcohol consumption and motor vehicle death categories."
Source:
Mokdad, Ali H., PhD, James S. Marks, MD, MPH, Donna F. Stroup, PhD, MSc, Julie L. Gerberding, MD, MPH, "Actual Causes of Death in the United States, 2000," Journal of the American Medical Association, (March 10, 2004), G225 Vol. 291, No. 10, p. 1238, 1240.
http://proxy.baremetal.com/csdp.org/research/1238.pdf
Source for Correction: Journal of the American Medical Association, Jan. 19, 2005, Vol. 293, No. 3, p. 298.

1. (1998 - marijuana)
"3. The most obvious concern when dealing with drug safety is the possibility of lethal effects. Can the drug cause death?
"4. Nearly all medicines have toxic, potentially lethal effects. But marijuana is not such a substance. There is no record in the extensive medical literature describing a proven, documented cannabis-induced fatality.
"5. This is a remarkable statement. First, the record on marijuana encompasses 5,000 years of human experience. Second, marijuana is now used daily by enormous numbers of people throughout the world. Estimates suggest that from twenty million to fifty million Americans routinely, albeit illegally, smoke marijuana without the benefit of direct medical supervision. Yet, despite this long history of use and the extraordinarily high numbers of social smokers, there are simply no credible medical reports to suggest that consuming marijuana has caused a single death.
"6. By contrast aspirin, a commonly used, over-the-counter medicine, causes hundreds of deaths each year.
"7. Drugs used in medicine are routinely given what is called an LD-50. The LD-50 rating indicates at what dosage fifty percent of test animals receiving a drug will die as a result of drug induced toxicity. A number of researchers have attempted to determine marijuana's LD-50 rating in test animals, without success. Simply stated, researchers have been unable to give animals enough marijuana to induce death.
"8. At present it is estimated that marijuana's LD-50 is around 1:20,000 or 1:40,000. In layman terms this means that in order to induce death a marijuana smoker would have to consume 20,000 to 40,000 times as much marijuana as is contained in one marijuana cigarette. NIDA-supplied marijuana cigarettes weigh approximately .9 grams. A smoker would theoretically have to consume nearly 1,500 pounds of marijuana within about fifteen minutes to induce a lethal response.
"9. In practical terms, marijuana cannot induce a lethal response as a result of drug-related toxicity."
Source:
US Department of Justice, Drug Enforcement Administration, "In the Matter of Marijuana Rescheduling Petition" (Docket #86-22), September 6, 1988, p. 56-57.
http://druglibrary.net/olsen/MEDICAL/YOUNG/young4.html

2. (1999 - marijuana) "Indeed, epidemiological data indicate that in the general population marijuana use is not associated with increased mortality."
Source:
Janet E. Joy, Stanley J. Watson, Jr., and John A Benson, Jr., "Marijuana and Medicine: Assessing the Science Base," Division of Neuroscience and Behavioral Research, Institute of Medicine (Washington, DC: National Academy Press, 1999), p. 109.
http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?isbn=0309071550&page=109

Iflyfishinaweoftheexpenseanddestructivenessofthewarondrugs

[Edited on 6-22-2011 by Iflyfish]

Skeet/Loreto - 6-22-2011 at 07:20 AM

Fish" The post well said but that is not the Point!!!

It is the Acts of DOPERS and the Terrible RESULTS that I am referring too.

People eat to much Fat, get Fat and Die. In doing that they do not commit acts that kill other peoples Children..

So, tell me Fish. What causes People to become DOPERS???

Cannot face Reality?

Scared of Life??

Weak Minded?

Uneducated??

It is what it does to a Person to make them lose Control of their Minds and Bodies.

Do you Trust a DOPER?? I do not!

Iflyfish - 6-22-2011 at 07:36 AM

Human beings are addictive organisms. We can become addicted to substances, people and activities. The issue is when do these things become a problem in our lives.

We use drugs, sex and rock and roll to change our feelings. Drugs, sex and rock and roll feel good. I include classical music with the rock and roll.

On a Sunday morning I prefer Mozart. On the road I prefer Buddy Guy and Creadance Clearwater Revival. Sometimes Mrsfish says I play them music too loud. When this happens I am experiencing a problem with that particular drug, in this case music. I turn the sound down to decrease the social destructiveness of my musical drug use and things go much better on the domestic front. I use the same strategy for other potentialy addictive substances, processes i.e. computer use, and activities.

As to comparing the relative destructive acts of people intoxicated with various drugs I again would refer you to the study.

Iflyfishwithcredanceclearwaterrevivalinmyears

DENNIS - 6-22-2011 at 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajatripper
Absolutely! I had an uncle who only smoked pot on special social occasions. But he was a hard-core alcoholic every day of his adult life, one of those people who could drink all day and yet, didn't look drunk.

OK....Let me rephrase the question.
Drinkers can at times, at a party for instance, drink moderatly with no goal in mind to alter their consciousness. They don't drink for effect.
My question is, do some dopers fall into that same catagory or is effect the only plausible goal?

Seems to me that, in our culture, alcohol is a social tool as well as a social stimulant whereas drugs are solely a means to an end which would, to me, make them unidentical by definition. They are not the same in any way until abuse is added to the equation.

WTF....who cares.

.

[Edited on 6-22-2011 by DENNIS]

Skeet/Loreto - 6-22-2011 at 07:44 AM

Fish:

I cannot think of anything that I am Addicted too;
Maybe I have missed out on some Life.
I loved to go to Mammouth Mnt. Ski Area and Ski the Cornice! What a Thrill, and that was many years ago.

My ultimate Thrill is saying or doing something that intices another Person to change their lives and become better people.

By the Way Mozart was a Mason. I at times in my live have been very close to being addicted to Dancin, and Girls, Flying, Skiing,Fishing the Sierras, and Montana with a Flyrod and a Gob of Worms.

DENNIS - 6-22-2011 at 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
By the Way Mozart was a Mason.

So what?

choyero - 6-22-2011 at 07:54 AM

a flyrod with a gob of worms :rolleyes:

you couldn't cast 10' without the worms flying off, but then again you were probably at the trout farm.

KurtG - 6-22-2011 at 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

I'm not joining the arguement. I just thought this would be a good place to ask; Many imbibers tend to drink in moderation. Many.
Can the same be said about drug users?
Just curious.

The quick answer to your question is yes they do.

Nobody seems to be addressing the difference between pot and other harder much more harmful drugs. While I neither drink alcohol or use other drugs I know many who smoke pot in moderation and use no other drug. Pot to me seems pretty harmless, can't overdose since the smoker just takes a little nap long before getting to any toxic level. Frankly, I prefer pot smokers to alcohol drinkers, I have NEVER seen anybody smoke a little pot and then go pick a fight, but violence in the local bars by drinkers is common.

I believe it is time to call off the "war on drugs" as a lost cause and treat drugs as a public health problem as do many other countries. Those countries don't seem to have any higher level of drug usage and don't waste the incredible amounts of money that we do. It would also help take the profit motive out of the drug trade which would benefit society in both supplier and consumer nations. This has been recently advocated by such radicals as Paul Volker, Jimmy Carter and the magazine "The Economist." The war on drugs has created an industry of law enforcement which sees job security, in California the prison guards union is one of the strongest foes of legalizing pot while refusing to consider drug testing for their members. In the county where I live most all public workers are subject to drug testing except for the police and sheriff's deputies whose unions refuse to consider it. Ironic, no?

Last weekend in San Luis Obispo County we had four deaths attributed to drunk driving, didn't hear of any deaths from drug usage.

BajaGringo - 6-22-2011 at 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
assures me that there are lots of "functioning" drug users out there; occasional / recreational users of everything from weed to coke to heroine.

Good question but I haven't a clue. My vast drug history is limited to a toke back in HS. Never liked smoking so pot made no sense either.

DENNIS - 6-22-2011 at 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KurtG
didn't hear of any deaths from drug usage.

Perhaps because there's no chapter of MADD, Mothers Against Drug Death, in your neighborhood.
Alcohol death denotes a failure of the individual.
Dope death denotes a failure of society. No one wants to hear about it.

Anyway....thanks for your answer.

Skeet/Loreto - 6-22-2011 at 08:45 AM

Choyero:
I have caught more and different Fish than you have ever seen. I can take a Gob of Worms thread on an Egg Hook and cast just as far a necessary to catch some mighty fine fish.

Skeet/Loreto - 6-22-2011 at 08:51 AM

I as an ole timer often think about "What happened??

When I was growing up and up to the 60's I did not see a large amount of Drug use. Even when i was working hollywood and So, Central La was the use of Drus as rampart as it is today.

I think that Movies had something to do with it,''I think the spread of the "If it Feels Good, Just do it" mentality had something to do with it.

Then I think that the "Lack of Parental control" had a lot to do with it as well as the "911 mentality" and the Govt control of everything from Diapers to DayCare helped along the Way.

We as a People need to learn to be Strong and Firm. not Weak and let someone else do the Job.

The DOPERS use BOOSE as an Excuse for their use of DRUGS. It is just the weak mentality of DOPERS.

Could it be in the Genes??

oxxo - 6-22-2011 at 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pescador
Do I note a strong biased position here, as the "Teapublicans" are all right wing zealots?

Only if you want to argue about it.

DENNIS - 6-22-2011 at 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
It is just the weak mentality of DOPERS.

Really?????

http://www.historyhouse.com/in_history/cocaine/

oxxo - 6-22-2011 at 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto

I cannot think of anything that I am Addicted too;

Red Flag, Red Flag!

choyero - 6-22-2011 at 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Choyero:
I have caught more and different Fish than you have ever seen. I can take a Gob of Worms thread on an Egg Hook and cast just as far a necessary to catch some mighty fine fish.

If you can beat 140 tons in 5 weeks, you got me.

Iflyfish - 6-22-2011 at 09:55 AM

Dennis, you wrote:
"OK....Let me rephrase the question.
Drinkers can at times, at a party for instance, drink moderatly with no goal in mind to alter their consciousness. They don't drink for effect.
My question is, do some dopers fall into that same catagory or is effect the only plausible goal?"

Seems to me that, in our culture, alcohol is a social tool as well as a social stimulant whereas drugs are solely a means to an end which would, to me, make them unidentical by definition. They are not the same in any way until abuse is added to the equation.

I now understand your question.

I believe that your premise is wrong. People do drink in order to change their emotional state. "I want to unwind, I want to relax, I want to kick back and have a brew, a drink would sure go good right now, let's celebrate and have a drink". Now substitute the term joint, toke etc. to the term alcohol above and you get the picture.

Alcohol relieved us of inhibitions and people like to let go of their inhibitions and to feel good. If people are using a substance to "feel good" then they are altering their mood, affect or consciousness. Alcohol in small doses creates a mild euphoria, in large doses a stupor. Ditto with Pot. A drug is a drug is a drug in this sense.

The only difference that I can see is that pot is very fast acting in making people "feel good".

I too have pondered this question and it is an important one to clarify.

Iflyfishandhopeonedaytokickbackandthrowdownapacificowithdennis

[Edited on 6-22-2011 by Iflyfish]

MitchMan - 6-22-2011 at 10:10 AM

Quote:

When I ran restaurants, night clubs and c-cktail lounges, there was a regular at the bar, every day, his name was Bill, mid to late forties I guess. He was a 'salt of the earth' blue collar quietly friendly and unassuming type of guy; very 'matter of fact' in manner. He would come in and sit and sip on bourbon for a few hours every day. He only spoke if he was spoken to. He always had this "matter of fact' kind of expression on his face.

One Saturday, he came at about 2pm. Didn't pay too much attention to him...all day...until closing time at 11 pm. I came into the lounge and announced last call. When everybody left, Bill was still on his stool at the end of the bar, with his usual matter of fact look on his face. When I went up to him to take his glass away, he didn't flinch, his posture was fixed, his eyes did not follow me, he didn't blink, he was stone cold drunk and in a complete stupor, but you couldn't tell it looking at him.

My point is this, when there is a frequent use of drugs and alcohol, many 'users' can educate and condition their bodies, manner, movement, gestures, posture, speech and even attitude to simulate sobriety. It is a skill that is developed.

I had a long time friend who was a CPA tax expert, we worked together for years. He did pot every day of his life, in the mornng before work, at lunch time, and for most of the evening after work with some beers. At work, he was known as a fast accountant. In accountancy, you cannot last a week if you are prone to mistakes, and in accounting, public or private, mistakes always come to light eventually. He was a good accountant and was given big complicated projects to work on, especially in the detailed complicated insurance industry. His personal life was always in the toilet, but professionally, he was spot on...as a tax accountant!

On Christmas eve, right around midnight, I left a c-cktail lounge in Dana Point right at midnight, drove home going north on PCH. I came upon an horrific accident that had just occurred minutes before I got there. A young preppy looking guy driving a 300ZX had broadsided a sedan, the sedan had a woman adult driver and a teenage female passenger. The sedan had been hit so hard that it flipped over and was upside down in the middle of the street, hood was on fire, and gas was leaking and running all under and around the upside down car. A young man was unsuccessfully pullng on the driver side door and yelling at the occupants to get out. However, flames engulfed the car and the young man had to step back and give up trying to open the door. As I was walking toward the accident I looked into the 300ZX. The front end was completely smashed. He was obviously driving at a high speed. The driver was unconscious and there was a six pack of Budweiser on the passenger floor with three unopened cans and three empty cans. The next morning I read that the victim woman was driving her teenage baby sitter home when they were hit by the ZX and were killed. The ZX had left the same bar I was at. The mother and father of the teenage victim came upon the after math of the accident when they were out looking for their daughter at 2 am Christmas morning. As the newpaper said, it was somehting that was the worst nightmare for a parent.

Sorry, but I see arguments trying to make distinctions between alcohol and drugs as specious.

[Edited on 6-22-2011 by MitchMan]

Bajatripper - 6-22-2011 at 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KurtG

Nobody seems to be addressing the difference between pot and other harder much more harmful drugs. While I neither drink alcohol or use other drugs I know many who smoke pot in moderation and use no other drug. Pot to me seems pretty harmless, can't overdose since the smoker just takes a little nap long before getting to any toxic level. Frankly, I prefer pot smokers to alcohol drinkers, I have NEVER seen anybody smoke a little pot and then go pick a fight, but violence in the local bars by drinkers is common.

I believe it is time to call off the "war on drugs" as a lost cause and treat drugs as a public health problem as do many other countries. Those countries don't seem to have any higher level of drug usage and don't waste the incredible amounts of money that we do. It would also help take the profit motive out of the drug trade which would benefit society in both supplier and consumer nations. This has been recently advocated by such radicals as Paul Volker, Jimmy Carter and the magazine "The Economist." The war on drugs has created an industry of law enforcement which sees job security, in California the prison guards union is one of the strongest foes of legalizing pot while refusing to consider drug testing for their members. In the county where I live most all public workers are subject to drug testing except for the police and sheriff's deputies whose unions refuse to consider it. Ironic, no?

Last weekend in San Luis Obispo County we had four deaths attributed to drunk driving, didn't hear of any deaths from drug usage.

Excellent post, Kurt. I've always thought the so-called "War on Drugs" was just a way for people with "palanca" in government to get some of those welfare-for-the-rich distributions of cash, an industry-in-itself, so to speak (the best example of that is the privatization/management-for-profit of our prison system--talk about a conflict of interest!). And, as an added bonus, it has allowed for the criminalization of drugs that are primarily used by the urban poor (such as crack cocaine), while letting our justice system go light on the enforcement/prosecution of the drug-of-choice of the yuppie crowd, cocaine.

How else to explain the overt ignoring of all the evidence that clearly demonstrates that our approach is all wrong? Studies of places where drug use is legal prove that beyond argument.

wessongroup - 6-22-2011 at 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
assures me that there are lots of "functioning" drug users out there; occasional / recreational users of everything from weed to coke to heroine.

Good question but I haven't a clue. My vast drug history is limited to a toke back in HS. Never liked smoking so pot made no sense either.

depends on the individual... some smoke a LOT some smoke a LITTLE... some pot has more AI in it.. than others... some can smoke all night, others not...

Hate to see pot in the same discussion has "smack" as it isn't the same drug, by a long ways... as is coke et al... each drug, has its own pharmacology as does the individual's own body's chemical reaction to the introduction of a "chemical substance" ....... introduced by what ever means, into into same ...

DENNIS - 6-22-2011 at 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
I believe that your premise is wrong. People do drink in order to change their emotional state.

Not all, Rick. As a therapist, I think you know that. The very moderate drinkers in a social situation may drink because it's the thing to do at that moment. They're satisfying a different need than the therapeutic.

Iflyfish - 6-22-2011 at 10:45 AM

Dennis,

I understand what you are saying, however alcohol is a mild euphoric and used in a social situation as a "social lubricant". This mild euphoria and reduction of inhibition is why people have a social drink, otherwise they would have water, juice or soda. I don't believe that most people are conscious of this motivation to change their mood, relax, increase enjoyment by decreasing inhibition.

Iflyfish

motoged - 6-22-2011 at 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
I believe that your premise is wrong. People do drink in order to change their emotional state.

I have been a therapist for 37 years, have run a residential drug treatment program for 4 years in the late 80's, and presently provide substance abuse counselling in my private practice.

My position is that alcohol is a drug and is used as such. The "Drug and alcohol" dichotomy is a false one and likely developed at a point in time when treatment for alcohol abuse was more established than was "drug" treatment.

This misleading misnomer is unfortunate. The social prevalence of alcohol consumption, its legalization, the commercial gains made by alcohol "dealers", and the litany of rationalizations and justifications that approve it are evident.

"Moderate drinkers" ???? Okay....what about "moderate tokers/ moderate snorters" ????

Drinking "socially" because "it is the thing to do" is the rationalization/ justification often used by adolescents as well as adult "users" to rationalize their use.

The use is mood-altering....a chemical fact.

The moralizing about it is a different conversation.

Iflyfish - 6-22-2011 at 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by motoged

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
I believe that your premise is wrong. People do drink in order to change their emotional state.

I wish I could write this succinctly.

IflyfishwithsuperfluousverbageandwouldliketofishadayaslongasIstay

DENNIS - 6-22-2011 at 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by motoged
"Moderate drinkers" ???? Okay....what about "moderate tokers/ moderate snorters" ????

That was my original question.....almost verbatim and it remains unanswered even by you experts who are so effing stuck in your comfortable ways that you refuse to take the leash off your brain.
Gawwwdammm....I lost count of the Psychiatrists who sat across a desk from me who where in need a tune-up ass-kicking.

Cypress - 6-22-2011 at 11:44 AM

Moderate tokers? Yea, they don't inhale. :biggrin:

bajalou - 6-22-2011 at 12:38 PM

I spent a few years in the late 70s and 80s being involved with a drug rehab organization in San Mateo county CA. Talking with residents and others (including family members) I was told many many times that it was much easier to get off heroin than alcohol. The denial factor of alcohol abusers is unreal.

drarroyo - 6-22-2011 at 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
That was my original question.....almost verbatim and it remains unanswered even by you experts who are so effing stuck in your comfortable ways that you refuse to take the leash off your brain.
Gawwwdammm....I lost count of the Psychiatrists who sat across a desk from me who where in need a tune-up ass-kicking.

there you have it folks.
any questions?

motoged - 6-22-2011 at 12:55 PM

Quote:

Dennis,
I guess I am not sure what your "original question" is/was.

I am not stuck in a "comfortable way"....I am just clear what my present position/understanding is. It might change again as time goes on and my perceptions change....as they do as I adapt as an organism.

Yeah, I have met my share of therapists who need a good ass-kicking, too.......and I get mine kicked from time-to-time.
Sometimes those are personal wake-up calls.....sometimes they are just crap from an abusive client.

And I have sure an overload experience of wanting to slap around a few clients.... :biggrin:

My position presently is:

Folks use a variety of behaviours to cope with being alive:
smoking cigarettes
drinking alcohol
smoking pot
snorting/smoking/injecting cocaine/heroin, meth
gambling
shopping
eating
hoarding
fishing
gardening
reading
socializing (talking) with others
having a pet

etc.

Some of these behaviours become excessive/unbalanced and at that point the behaviour (solution) becomes a problem.

This point of imbalance differs for all individuals based on what evaluative conceptual framework is applied to evaluate the situation (moral, psychiatric, disease model, harm-reduction model, war on drugs model, etc)

I look at it functionally: What purpose is being served by the behaviour and how is it affecting the person's functioning?

Not all substance use is problematic in my view.

Some is adaptive and functional/acceptable (by my standards);
Some is mal-adaptive and no longer helpful(by my standards....and by others').

People (and other mammals) have used chemistry to alter their experience forever.....mint for the digestion for example.

How we manage such application of chemistry in our lives is the issue....with no particular agreement is the apparent conversation.

Skeet/Loreto - 6-22-2011 at 01:04 PM

Goat; Best Post you have ever made.

Now, I need to ask; Is it better to just give up trying to prevent DOPER and accept our Society as it is???

Do we need to try something in the Youngsters beginning that will make it to where he has no "Desire for Drugs. A Chemical that could be injected on Birth that would stop any future desire for DOPE.

The People who do not use DOPE should not have to Support and pay for those that become a Drag on Society because of their DOPE use and its Criminal Results.

Bajamatic - 6-22-2011 at 01:18 PM

Skeet, it is possible that your posts have become the best part of my day.

Skeet/Loreto - 6-22-2011 at 01:49 PM

Sure some good stuff coming from the Nomads!

After all is said and done it does appear that Ole Timers like me must accept the Fact that DOPERS do not want to give up their use. No Matter What. Therefore we, the non-user accepts that the Weak Minded People want Drugs Legalized so it is easier and cheaper to buy their Drugs.

We must therefore revert to the Survivial of the Fitist and allow them to use.. That way the use of DOPE will increase and DOPERS will die sooner and Faster.

motoged - 6-22-2011 at 02:07 PM

Dennis,
I reread the entire thread and found your question.

Yes, I do believe some people can be minimal or moderate substance users.... Flyfishguy responded before I did and presented this belief eloquently.

Bajamatic - 6-22-2011 at 02:52 PM

Also, you've proven yourself to be, hands down, the most myopic human I've ever read.

motoged - 6-22-2011 at 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajamatic
Also, you've proven yourself to be, hands down, the most myopic human I've ever read.

BM,
Are you referring to me (Motoged) or another poster? :?:

Your reference is ambiguous.

Bajamatic - 6-22-2011 at 03:27 PM

Oh god no. I'm talking about skeet.

Skeet/Loreto - 6-22-2011 at 03:42 PM

Matic! How can you say that??

Everything I post comes from my 80 years of Life and my Life of experiences with people.
I speak TRUTH from the heart. I donot try to soft-soap the Human Race.

I have seen the Culture/Society of this Great Nation go on a Downward slide because of the Weak-minded , Balming, bunch of WIMPs this country has ever seen.

Don't you realize what your actions/or lack of actions are doing to your Children???

You are killing your Children with your use of DOPE!

You are making them WIMPS because of your Failure to Spank their little Butts when they do Wrong!!.

You are making them dependent on Govt. Employees and Programs that takes away their Abilities to make their own Decesions.

I talk and Post about what is actually happening, not what some TV Star is telling me!
Just look at the Childest calling of People Gay>
If a person is Gay, that is their Business not Yours Keep your Mouth Shut

What about you Bajamatic. Do yopu have the Balls to Post your Experiences and references!? are you just another of those WIMPS?????.

motoged - 6-22-2011 at 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajamatic
Oh god no. I'm talking about skeet.

Phewww!!!! Now I have to call that hitman and cancel the contract....I don't get back the 50% downpayment :fire:

Interesting how I can take things personally sometimes :lol:

On with the show....

DENNIS - 6-22-2011 at 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by drarroyo

there you have it folks.
any questions?

Just one. Do you bring out the Ax-Murderer in everybody, or is it just me?

Bajamatic - 6-22-2011 at 04:47 PM

I once read on nomad that you should never argue with an idiot because on lookers may not be able to tell the difference. Screw it, I'm in.

Everything I post comes from my 80 years of Life and my Life of experiences with people.
I speak TRUTH from the heart. I donot try to soft-soap the Human Race.

You seem to be confused by the difference between truth and belief. Just because you believe it, doesn't make it true.

I have seen the Culture/Society of this Great Nation go on a Downward slide because of the Weak-minded , Balming, bunch of WIMPs this country has ever seen.

Again - this is your belief and you are welcome to it. It doesn't make it true for anyone but yourself. I personally believe the decline of this country is due to people who believe the way YOU do. I believe your out dated ideas and self righteousness are exactly what causes rebellion and anarchy. If you were my dad, I'd probably turn gay just to pee you off.

Don't you realize what your actions/or lack of actions are doing to your Children???

As a parent, I firmly believe that if I reinforce in my child what his strengths are instead of beat him down for his weaknesses, he will be a stronger and happier person. My son is in the 5th percentile in size - 95% of his peers are bigger than he is, but he is head and shoulders beyond the rest in his confidence and happiness, and that is MY truth. And he can kick the crap out of most of em. He's 7. He's fought his way up, and I taught him how to capitalize on his talents.

You are killing your Children with your use of DOPE!

What is your definition of DOPE?

You are making them WIMPS because of your Failure to Spank their little Butts when they do Wrong!!.

Justin Beiber is making them wimps.

You are making them dependent on Govt. Employees and Programs that takes away their Abilities to make their own Decesions.

Are you accepting any kind of government money? I'm not.

I talk and Post about what is actually happening, not what some TV Star is telling me!

Again let me help you clarify. you PREACH about what is happening within arms reach of you and your boose.

Just look at the Childest calling of People Gay>
If a person is Gay, that is their Business not Yours Keep your Mouth Shut

This is too garbled to even understand.

What about you Bajamatic. Do yopu have the Balls to Post your Experiences and references!? are you just another of those WIMPS?????.

What experience have you posted Skeet? NONE. You post RHETORIC not experience. Being 80 years old is the only thing you have on offer. And the only thing its taught you is to be a closed minded old lunatic.

[Edited on 6-22-2011 by Bajamatic]

drarroyo - 6-22-2011 at 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Goat; Best Post you have ever made.

.

doing DOPE there ol timer??

Bajatripper - 6-22-2011 at 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajamatic
I once read on nomad that you should never argue with an idiot because on lookers may not be able to tell the difference. Screw it, I'm in.
]

Aahh, another of us falls for Skeet's enchantment. Those baits he continuously throws out are hard to ignore, but we were doing it pretty well at times on this thread.

But fear not, my friend. Most of us can distinguish our Resident Idiot from the other members.

DavidT - 6-22-2011 at 09:04 PM

Quote:

Endlessly posting on an internet forum.

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