BajaNomad

Try Ordering Fuel By The Liter

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Bob and Susan - 12-4-2011 at 07:53 AM

for us simpletons

sigma = measurement for standard deviation

but...i could be wrong:lol:

6e55baeb725ae6caa280b9a59c740fb9.png - 1kB

Ateo - 12-4-2011 at 09:17 AM

laventana,

With all due respect, I'm done with this. We could go on forever. Until there is more evidence that "secret chips" exist and are widespread, there's no point to continue this debate.

laventana - 12-4-2011 at 10:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ateo
laventana,

With all due respect, I'm done with this. We could go on forever. Until there is more evidence that "secret chips" exist and are widespread, there's no point to continue this debate.
asked you to put up. there are chips available. I proved that.

and my questions I asked were simple if you really knew the in depth hard issues about your industry that from what I see you seem to be proclaiming. Sorry if I ask hard direct questions but I have learned this can flush out internet people who claim things that they have no knowledge of.

I can assume there are no competent independent inspectors out there if you till shown otherwise. You claim to be an insider and could not answer very simple questions that are critical to the protection of consumers, like how many regulators there are and how many pumps. Do they actually check the the chip or just check that gas comes out of a nozzle? less than 5 gallons and so on every year or several years.

and as I said I proved they are out there. I have seen one with a alternative button. If no one is actually checking, well gee..... easy pickens out there when there is no one to watch the henhouse or the fox is watching the henhouse.

Bob and Susan - 12-4-2011 at 11:53 AM

i must have missed the documentation
that there are actually
"blackmarket chips" for gas pumps

and this documentation for the running gas pump is incomplete
no hose shows
the nozzel could be from another pump
it does look real though but...this is NOT conclusive evidence
here is that doc you provided
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opADj9IlAqA

i kinda like this ripoff scam


Ateo - 12-4-2011 at 12:08 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob and Susan


i kinda like this ripoff scam




Yep. I keep a small person in my trunk for this exact situation.

And that pump slowly charging for gas video is what's called meter creeping. Bad bladder inside pump. Usually only charges $.01 at the beginning of the transaction. Like you said they don't show the entire hose traced back to the pump. This "ripoff" is not the norm and is a malfunction, not some gas station owner sitting in his back room with a secret remote control, ripping people off. ;D

Ateo - 12-4-2011 at 12:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by laventana
Quote:
Originally posted by ateo
laventana,

With all due respect, I'm done with this. We could go on forever. Until there is more evidence that "secret chips" exist and are widespread, there's no point to continue this debate.
asked you to put up. there are chips available. I proved that.

and my questions I asked were simple if you really knew the in depth hard issues about your industry that from what I see you seem to be proclaiming. Sorry if I ask hard direct questions but I have learned this can flush out internet people who claim things that they have no knowledge of.

I can assume there are no competent independent inspectors out there if you till shown otherwise. You claim to be an insider and could not answer very simple questions that are critical to the protection of consumers, like how many regulators there are and how many pumps. Do they actually check the the chip or just check that gas comes out of a nozzle? less than 5 gallons and so on every year or several years.

and as I said I proved they are out there. I have seen one with a alternative button. If no one is actually checking, well gee..... easy pickens out there when there is no one to watch the henhouse or the fox is watching the henhouse.



Like I said, I'm done debating this.

[Edited on 3-17-2013 by Ateo]

laventana - 12-4-2011 at 09:24 PM

Quote:
ateo


Here's my qualifications:

http://www.thecomplianceguys.com/

Like I said, I'm done debating this.
thanks for the link, as your website states you are qualified in southern california for environmental compliance. stressing environmental and safety... You work for the fox.... so yes a conflict of interest in this discussion. Thus the burden is put on you even more for real data not your opinion.

don't get me wrong, I am a firm believer in the services you provide to the gas stations. your site states "The Compliance Guys have Environmental Coordinators all over Southern California" from your site it is very clear you are not in the market to do pump inspections for the government to prevent fraudulent activities. You list no expertise in electronics to the pumps.

All I asked for were specific facts.... I look for industry people for the facts. so if you will not back up with real facts I personally can not accept a financial conflict of interest party "qualified opinion".

an decent analogy IMHO is the recent bank failures where the compliance companies on them allowed them to sell toxic mortgages. these compliance companies swore their customers were not cheating.

laventana - 12-4-2011 at 10:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob and Susan
i must have missed the documentation
that there are actually
"blackmarket chips" for gas pumps

and this documentation for the running gas pump is incomplete
no hose shows
the nozzel could be from another pump
it does look real though but...this is NOT conclusive evidence
here is that doc you provided
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opADj9IlAqA

i kinda like this ripoff scam



just examples, and yes another link i also provided was for the chips, arrest and conviction. and a station that was too stupid to figure out that they made an extra $300k....

gee easy google of more..

some states do not even test pumps at all, some every 5 years. our industry insider did not have the guts to tell us this.

and there are a total of 600 inspectors nation wide. How many pumps a million? hahahahaha like these could be inspected... I bet at the most one handful of these inspectors are engineers that could actually test a chip.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/21/cbsnews_investigat...
Quote:

Mark Greenblatt of KHOU in Houston reports that for the first time ever, the state of Texas is suing a company that runs a chain of gas stations - accusing it of deliberately shorting consumers. The company denies any wrongdoing, but they are not alone. Last year the state found nearly 2,000 pumps at other gas stations that were cheating drivers.


http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=88004&page=1#.Tt...
Quote:

Additionally, there are some high-tech scams out there. Some gas stations are buying a $7,000 computer chip that can be placed in a pump to cheat customers. The pumps then dispense less gas than is indicated.


http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-5205... this form discusses several re-chipped sources.

http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/20.03.html#subj1
Quote:

Today's *Los Angeles Times* reports that the county district attorney has filed charges against four men who are alleged to have replaced computer chips in electronic gas pumps, thus cheating customers of between 7%-25% of their gasoline. The url to the full story is http://www.latimes.com/HOME/NEWS/METRO/t000091711.html According to the story, the problem was hard to detect partly because the chips were programmed to generate accurate results in the five- and ten-gallon amounts used for testing the accuracy of pumps. The RISK here is twofold: That misplaced trust in digital technology can lead consumers not to check things like gas pumps, and that it's easier to fool the regulators with an intelligently programmed cheat.


http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2008/04/feel-cheated-at.h...
Quote:

Apr 29, 2008 5:05:50 PM One does not necessarily have to learn how to "jury rig" a pump. You can buy flow chips on the blackmarket that short customers by charging a higher price while shorting the "gallons". This is rarely done today as gas station operators now face huge fines and potential loss of operating license. It was most prevelant in the DC area about two years ago, however the FBI busted the 18 member gang (ironically all whom where from Middle Eastern countries and obviously well schooled in manipulating computer chips). Prior to today's susprise pump inspections, the county inspector would contact the gas station due for inspection and inform them of his pending inspection day and time. This was done to insure that the station had someone onsite to unlock the individual pumps. Prior to the inspector showing up one could swap out the flow chip and replace with the standard chip that comes with the pump heads so no one would suspect anything. Ironically it was a disgruntled member of the "gang" who tipped off the FBI.


http://www.petrolplaza.com/technology/articles/MiZlbiYxMDUwO...
Quote:

In an even more disturbing dispenser rigging scheme, referred to as “computer chip cheating” in the 20/20 story, corrupt station owners are using a computerized device to rig dispensers so that they dispense less gasoline than the customer pays for. (A state weights and measures official told me that the controls for some such devices resemble a garage-door opener).
Quote:

According to the 20/20 report, law enforcement authorities in California say that (1) thousands of customers in their state have been cheated by this scheme, which may have spread from the midwest; (2) the cheaters have figured out how to ensure that purchases of five or 10 gallons are accurate, because these are the quantities that official inspectors test for; and (3) anyone with a rudimentary knowledge of computer programming and a concept of how they want to cheat can design a cheating system.

Bob and Susan - 12-5-2011 at 07:00 AM

geeezzz...

there still is NO proof that the chip exists

just because its printed on the internet DOESN'T mean its true

do you think the BIG gas companies want this
(not the retailer)

heck no...there is too much profit in regular sales
you dont think they would shut down (quietly) a source for these chips

as for the amount of gas you get in baja...do the test...it was easy

laventana - 12-5-2011 at 08:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob and Susan
geeezzz...

there still is NO proof that the chip exists

just because its printed on the internet DOESN'T mean its true

do you think the BIG gas companies want this
(not the retailer)

heck no...there is too much profit in regular sales
you dont think they would shut down (quietly) a source for these chips

as for the amount of gas you get in baja...do the test...it was easy
your test is about the stupidest test I could imagine if one is trying to find theft if you read or understood the references I posted. second, again I listed convicted people that put in chips in over a hundred pumps and you are in denial.

and third I specifically caught a place with a second button here in the baja.

you are welcome to do a real statistical test using as the US now does in some places over 10 gallons because the chips as reported kick in at OVER 5 gallons or over 10 gallons so that as stated the weights and measurements do not catch them. Or find links to that there is no cheating.

Gee just because my sources on the internet were the LA times, ABC, and 20/20 well you are welcome to post links that prove you know what you are talking about. I have and ask you to do the same. you are welcome to reverse the convictions reported in the LA times and the other sources. But till you doyou certainly have no credibility from my standpoint as a Engineer with you anecdotal data not supported by any credible methodology.

As least our industry advocate had industry credibility to start with even with a conflict of interest was worth listening to till he would not back up with linkable facts.

here is the one i posted in previous post
http://articles.latimes.com/1998/oct/09/business/fi-30669

Quote:

Two managers of Mepco Oil, based in Santa Fe Springs, and two others are suspected of replacing the computer chip that regulates the quantity of gas delivered at the pump with an altered chip. Investigators found 140 altered chips in 12 stations throughout Los Angeles, Orange, San Bernardino and Kern counties. Dist. Atty. Gil Garcetti referred to the alleged scheme as a "high-tech innovation used to steal money from consumers who don't know they're victimized." The altered chip would cause the pump to speed up its reading, giving the customer 7% to 25% less gasoline than indicated, officials said.


I know you do not believe the newspapers as a source either, after all a good for instance is two Hawaii newspapers printed Obama birth when he was born and to this date many americans still say Obama was not born in the USA. So all I can say is you are welcome to live in your world.

And you have a direct report by me that I caught a station, it was easy when you click and a tablespoon comes out on a motorcycle and it reads 3 liters when the pump was cleared. and then I saw where he then pressed to get it to work properly.

I can say is people on this board you get to pick either believe me a person who has been VP of engineering, director of R&;D and designed input devices and the sources I have listed or believe a paid industry spokesperson/insider, or this Bob and sue poster who by all means really believe that their little fill a quart jug up test really proves their point and is really meaningful to this discussion..... They seem to think theft of hundreds of thousands of dollars just at one station in a year is a joke.

I have no idea what his qualification is but as you notice I am willing to bet it all I can rig a station and can not be caught with the present means as outlined with the 600 testers, ie a whopping 12 in each state average in the entire USA for the 3 million or so pumps out there. He may be the god of testing these pumps in reality but he has not listed his qualifications so I can challenge it on the merits like I did with the conflict of interest industry professional who is paid by the stations.

I believe I have backed up my point of view with decent links and have specific personal example. readers obviously decide. I am still open to other examples by them that are based on some form of reality or cited sources.

Udo - 12-5-2011 at 08:20 AM

I thought this post was about how to purchase gas at Baja's Pemex so one does not feel they've been ripped off.
Bob and Susan did a nice video-backed presentation and the rest of Nomadland posted where not to buy gas.
If we get into diesel is this going to start again?

JEEESHH...no wonder Jesse quit this post.

Lighten up!

laventana

bajaguy - 12-5-2011 at 08:34 AM

You have taken an interesting thread with civil discussion posts and turned it into a personal confrontational debate.

Based on your antagonistic diatribes, you have lost any credibility that you may have had in a more civil exchange with other Nomads as you try to get your point/information across.

Do/did you respond like this when discussing opposing views in your "professional" career???

I suggest you find other Baja forums (they are out there) that tolerate your type of posts. I'm sure they will welcome you with open arms.

Udo - 12-5-2011 at 08:43 AM

RIGHT ON! bajaguy

backninedan - 12-5-2011 at 08:45 AM

Well said Bajaguy, I thought maybe it was just me.

Ateo - 12-5-2011 at 08:49 AM

100% with you BajaGuy. Well said.

David K - 12-5-2011 at 08:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ateo
100% with you BajaGuy. Well said.


X2

laventana - 12-5-2011 at 08:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajaguy
You have taken an interesting thread with civil discussion posts and turned it into a personal confrontational debate.

Based on your antagonistic diatribes, you have lost any credibility that you may have had in a more civil exchange with other Nomads as you try to get your point/information across.

Do/did you respond like this when discussing opposing views in your "professional" career???

I suggest you find other Baja forums (they are out there) that tolerate your type of posts. I'm sure they will welcome you with open arms.
sorry if you take it that way... but to me this is a serious subject. Maybe I take it a bit more serious than you. But I really do not like when industry insiders tell me this absolutely has never happened. And it takes just a few minutes to find the exact opposite.

Yep I am for information... sorry if you do not like my style. I do apologize for that.

David K - 12-5-2011 at 09:00 AM

Serious that a lot of Nomads are involved with this, and this comment: "your test is about the stupidest test I could imagine" from you about what Bob posted isn't a good way to get respect in here. I know Bob, and he is a most intelligent man I have a ton of respect for. That Bob made the effort and took the time to show us his test is worth so much more that theories you have posted.

You are new (or using a new screen name), so being nice here won't hurt.

laventana - 12-5-2011 at 09:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Serious that a lot of Nomads are involved with this, and this comment: "your test is about the stupidest test I could imagine" from you about what Bob posted isn't a good way to get respect in here. I know Bob, and he is a most intelligent man I have a ton of respect for. That Bob made the effort and took the time to show us his test is worth so much more that theories you have posted.

You are new (or using a new screen name), so being nice here won't hurt.
I have been around for many years as you can see my date I joined, just used this site for information. But saw this subject since I had not only a serious person encounter that the average person would not have understood by the unique nature of actually knowing the insides of this technology and how it can be used to steal. And caught them dead handed. If I caught them there would be many more from what I have read about.

and if one uses a bit of logic one person even reported a Pemex person told a person that buy by the liter. Just that alone if true tells you enough about what is going on.

and the so called myth busting by them needs to be told as it is. From the engineering and statistical world it absolutely shows nothing of what is going on in the ability as reported all over about the pump irregularity. That they again and again counter my posts with their anecdotal non-relavant test to what is in the links I reported is what I would consider worth being criticized. We do not need people reading this thread even thinking what they did has any merit to the saying there is no cheating, I believe people have a right to the other opinions. I certainly like other sides and welcome them.

Again if you here do not like the links and facts I posted and you believe I do not have the right to my words of warning about what I really consider irresponsible information that is your choice to not read them.

But from what I see here yes I am direct, and yes I backed up my position. Yes a bit more direct than many seem to like, but again you do not have to believe me.

Maybe this was why I was VP I am very direct and do not penalize anyone for being wrong. I never fired a single person in my career. I firmly believe the direct truth is best, and working through things even when people messed up.

and from the feedback from this i will probably just stick to this thread and be gone for a long time again. sorry I do not conform to your style and no hard feelings. It is your site not mine.

David K - 12-5-2011 at 09:43 AM

It is a site for anyone who loves Baja or wants to learn about Baja, and not my site (see posts from 'BajaNomad', Doug). I too get comments from folks that don't know me thinking my style of helping is sometimes not soft enough, lol. Helping people learn to respect Baja by (at least) spelling the towns correctly is one such item that grates a few the wrong way. :rolleyes:

The person (DavidE) who started this thread has sure been absent after getting everyone on a roll with his theory about asking for fuel by the quantity instead of by the cost...

I just think you were a tad rude after the effort that Bob made to show (at his Mulege Pemex source) that fuel is the same no matter how you order it.

I only looked at the number of posts and not the registration date, my bad. Sorry there hasn't been anything else to interest you here to talk in the past 5 years!

[Edited on 12-5-2011 by David K]

TheColoradoDude - 12-5-2011 at 10:29 AM

This thread reminds me of this verizon customer service call I watched/listened to a few years back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2isSJKntbg

and a check to go with it! :)

DavidE - 12-5-2011 at 11:07 AM

Donde esta senor baja cactus on this?

David K - 12-5-2011 at 11:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DavidE
Donde esta senor baja cactus on this?


Hi Dah-veed,

Antonio hasn't posted much here in quite awhile... He is spending most of his time in El Rosario trying to keep his two primary businesses running. Times are hard for most of us self employed folks!

laventana - 12-6-2011 at 07:55 AM

timely, in just a few days it is World anti-corruption Day, read about it just a bit of information... this is public sector, not private business, but there is probably a decent correlation. Canada puts the USA to shame...


http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2011/in_detail/
Quote:

2011 Transparency International CPI Report shows 80% of humans live under corrupt government “Corruption” is defined by Transparency International (TI) as “the abuse of entrusted power for private gain.” Each year TI publishes a “Corruption Perceptions Index” which scores the world's nations out of ten for their public sector honesty and the just-released 2011 report paints a bleak picture. Only six countries scored 9.0 or better, and just 49 of the 186 countries assessed in the report scored better than 5.0. Analysis shows more than 80% of human beings on Planet Earth exist under regimes which score 4.0 or less. December 9 is World Anti-Corruption Day.

http://cpi.transparency.org/cpi2011/in_detail/

laventana - 12-6-2011 at 09:34 AM

more examples of intentional fraud, though we were told by the industry insider this does not happen in the USA... I would really expect someone who says they know so much to know about these many cases, i am sure the industry news letters highlight these.

http://www.fbi.gov/atlanta/press-releases/2010/at102010c.htm
Quote:

United States Attorney Edward Tarver stated, “Thousands of consumers lost millions of dollars in this gas-fraud scheme that also involved the bribery of public officials. For years, customers of the Cisco stations thought they were getting a deal; instead, they were ripped off at the pump. This case should serve as warning to would-be fraudsters that if you steal from consumers in this District, you will receive a full tank of justice.”


http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/SunMart-hit-...
Quote:

985 pumps miscalibrated The verdict ended an eight-week trial that had its origins in July 2008 when Texas Department of Agriculture inspectors launched Operation Spotlight, which tested more than 1,700 pumps at the Texas SunMart stores. Officials said 985 of the pumps were set to dispense less than a full gallon of gas. State officials also accused the company of sending workers to recalibrate the pumps before state examiners could reach SunMart locations.


http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/docs/orgcrm96.pdf

http://watchseries.eu/episode/the_f.b.i._files_s3_e9-68090.h...
FBI agents began investigating New York gas station mogul Gurmeet Dhinsa for gas pump rigging. They learned that he enforced his mob-like operation with brutal violence.

wiki
Quote:

On July 1, 1997, police were called by a man who claimed Dhinsa had threatened him and his family. Later that day, investigators stopped Dhinsa and searched the car he was driving. When Dhinsa opened the trunk, the police discovered circuit boards for gas pumps

and if you do not like my style of posting on this subject of gas pump rigging... well electronic vote fraud, i really will not ever quit... i just do not allow people who have no technological expertise allowing or perpetuating myths that there is no electronic election fraud there without a different backed up point of view from me. and let the people decide.

That industry too says there is no theft because no one has been caught is their argument... (at least in this gas one people have been caught with re-chipping)

[Edited on 12-6-2011 by laventana]

Bob and Susan - 12-6-2011 at 04:14 PM

i read ALL the links...
all really old stuff
1996 was about 15 years ago

nothing here states there are
"blackmarket chips" out there
that cheat the public

yes humans cheat...no one would ever dispute that

but remember the thread here is about...

if you buy gas by the liter...do you get more
than of you buy by the peso

and later...

if you but a liter...do you get a liter

if you think your gas station is cheating you...prove it
don't just whine about it

in mulege the gas station on the hiway
sells a liter for a liter

Yes it does matter how one counts..

wessongroup - 12-6-2011 at 04:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheColoradoDude
This thread reminds me of this verizon customer service call I watched/listened to a few years back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2isSJKntbg

and a check to go with it! :)



Spot on ... love the amount in the check as it is in fact correct ... :lol::lol:

[Edited on 12-6-2011 by wessongroup]

Ateo - 12-6-2011 at 07:52 PM

Laventana, evidence needed.....spent the last 3 days doing inspections at gas stations and everyone laughed at this premise of "chips".

Most usa stations are electronically monitored by the supplier and if there was gas accumulating in their tanks from ripping customers off, they would know about it and terminate their lease/fuel supply contract and/or send someone out to investigate the discrepancy.

laventana - 12-6-2011 at 08:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ateo
Laventana, evidence needed.....spent the last 3 days doing inspections at gas stations and everyone laughed at this premise of "chips".

Most usa stations are electronically monitored by the supplier and if there was gas accumulating in their tanks from ripping customers off, they would know about it and terminate their lease/fuel supply contract and/or send someone out to investigate the discrepancy.
You have a great way of providing not one verifiable link to anything you say. They only thing you linked to was your company that does not do pump inspections for the consumer even at the chip level.

Tell me specifically when you ever checked the chip? and how you did it. the entire procedure... this will be interesting. I asked you for specifics before and you could not give them. as I found there are only an average of 12 inspectors in each state. and gave you the link. time for you to actually answer the questions if you know what you are talking about in this area. I have no doubt for your environmental and safety inspections you know how to comply to what the government is asking for. but this is different..

ok, when was the last time you ever met a person cable of doing a test of the chips in a gas pump. I proved these chips are available. You say you know what is going on because you are the expert, give me the link to the hundreds of people that actually test specifically for chips and I will contact a random few... give me the names of specific people in the government that can do this, and their phone numbers I will call ask get to the bottom of your claims.



I also listed a gas station that was also caught when they had overcharged over $300,000.00 that you just said was basically impossible because your so called inspections and could never have allowed that in the history of mankind. look at the millions the other stations were caught ripping off. again with your so called environmental inspections it is impossible... but we are talking millions in some of my links that were recent.

and again even listed they said how easy these pumps are to manipulate with firmware or software to cheat. EXACTLY what I told you, this is a very basic system, as I said I would just take two and put the inputs parallel and switch on a mis-calibrated one after 5 gallons. Operated by a car or garage remote control. it really is as simple as that. and if I was going to do it massively I would hire a programmer and have a chip made instead. You have no clue how easy this is, as one link stated it is simple... you obviously have no electronically qualified engineers working with you. Even most techs could do this.

By the way talked to a bunch of locals and some programmers and they all are laughing that you think it is not possible ... sarcasm....

Bob and Susan - 12-7-2011 at 05:41 AM

everything IS possible...

you still don't have ANYTHING that says these
"chips" even exist OR are being used

the 300k fraud was done differently...manually
fraud exists everywhere in every business
but here we are talking about a gas pump

as for the inspectors...
the government contracts out ALOT now
that's the way it is these days

the business has to pay a private company
to prove compliance to laws

haven't you ever talked to someone in India...same thing

Why bother

bajaguy - 12-7-2011 at 05:52 AM

He just wants to be argumentative. He has long ago passed the point of providing information. His posts have turned into a rant. The best way to handle someone like this is to not respond.

laventana - 12-7-2011 at 08:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bob and Susan
everything IS possible...

you still don't have ANYTHING that says these
"chips" even exist OR are being used

the 300k fraud was done differently...manually
fraud exists everywhere in every business
but here we are talking about a gas pump

as for the inspectors...
the government contracts out ALOT now
that's the way it is these days

the business has to pay a private company
to prove compliance to laws

haven't you ever talked to someone in India...same thing


please give us links to the states that contract out for pump verification that you state as fact. and how many they have and what specifically they do to verify the pumps. and what they do to check the chips and integrity of the electronics we are debating here.

you missed the point of the $300K plus in fraud that just ONE station was caught for, according to our industry spokesperson all amounts of fuel are closely so closely accounted for by the industry that theft is impossible. Well this and the ones that were in the millions seemed to get by so easily. and that this station did not know that they had an EXTRA $300k in their year gee? what one single gas station/business is that clueless. so the point is our industry paid insider said that the companies keep such tight controls that even this could never happen. and we have examples of station cheating in the millions of dollars. again these are documented.

I have plenty of links showing these chips are real. It is you that can not figure it out. It is you who have not proven that they are not out there. Please get those convictions of the people reversed and testimonies by those who caught them reversed. After you do that I will believe you. But you posted not one link to anything credible.

And you made a stupid comment that because you put one liter in a bottle this means it is a myth is over. Can you explain how this would catch a pump with a remote control or cheats after 5 gallons. Or in my case when the attendant pushed a different hidden button on the pump, after the I took the pump out of his hand and I pumped a teaspoon and it showed 3 liters. then saw him push an area where there was no button marking and it worked properly.

laventana - 12-7-2011 at 09:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ateo
I have an option for all you black helicopter types: bring your own gas into Baja and boycott Pemex. :)

But like laventana says, even the US stations have remote controlled cheating devices. so you're screwed either way. Sarcasm.

Can we get BajaCactus' take on the liters to pesos debate?
who is bajaCactus? his name comes up as a reasonable person...
by the way this was the post after my first post on this forum. He did apologize after I did point out somewhat in kind but politely his insults were not welcome. He only apologized for the first part not the second part too.


you can see I remained respectful even though that was my welcoming to this forum.

[Edited on 12-7-2011 by laventana]

laventana - 12-7-2011 at 09:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajaguy
He just wants to be argumentative. He has long ago passed the point of providing information. His posts have turned into a rant. The best way to handle someone like this is to not respond.
Is this type of statement/ internet harassment considered trolling on this forum?

I attacked what I consider a "stupid test" as some sort of "proof" not the person.

And note my first post on this thread I had what i consider two personal attacks on me and it is funny how I did not see any of you go after the offending poster. That was ok for you to have a poster go personal attack on a newbie. See I do not allow that to happen anywhere in life, i certainly do not allow it in forums i post in and do not allow it in life in general, actually I have never seen it allowed anywhere in the 8 years or so of me being on various sites by other posters. That poster did apologize for one of his insults in that post, but he did NOT for the second one that was also a personal attack IMHO. and again I am not a newbie for forums, just this one.

I do respectfully ask you remove your posts that have nothing to do with the subject what so ever. and i will in kind. if you want to contribute to the debate with information on the subject I welcome the discussion.

laventana - 12-7-2011 at 09:24 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by lencho
Quote:
Originally posted by laventana
I have plenty of links showing these chips are real. It is you that can not figure it out. It is you who have not proven that they are not out there.

A little hesitant about jumping into this psing match, but I'm honestly curious about these chips and had never heard of them before. Would you mind posting some of those links?


they are listed in links I provided, with snippets of the information from the links. there have been convictions of one gas company with over 100 chips in place.

David K - 12-7-2011 at 10:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by laventana
Quote:
Originally posted by ateo
I have an option for all you black helicopter types: bring your own gas into Baja and boycott Pemex. :)

But like laventana says, even the US stations have remote controlled cheating devices. so you're screwed either way. Sarcasm.

Can we get BajaCactus' take on the liters to pesos debate?
who is bajaCactus? his name comes up as a reasonable person...
by the way this was the post after my first post on this forum. He did apologize after I did point out somewhat in kind but politely his insults were not welcome. He only apologized for the first part not the second part too.


you can see I remained respectful even though that was my welcoming to this forum.

[Edited on 12-7-2011 by laventana]


'BajaCactus' on Nomad is Antonio, the owner of the Pemex in El Rosario and the Baja Cactus Motel, next door. He hasn't been posting much the past year...

laventana - 8-14-2012 at 09:19 PM

Deputy slams gasoline fraud
http://www.thenews.com.mx/index.php/mexico/M02-26626.html
Says drivers lose 600 million pesos a year at pump


BY YVONNE REYES CAMPOS

Rumbo de México
Quote:

MEXICO CITY – Institutional Revolutionary Party (PRI) Deputy Nazario Norberto Sánchez said on Monday that Mexican drivers lose more than 600 million pesos a year to fraud at the gas pump.

Sánchez said that lawmakers should introduce more severe penalties for those who tamper with gas pumps for their own benefit, adding that state and local authorities must step up inspection of gas stations to prevent this type of theft.




[Edited on 8-15-2012 by laventana]

Nemo55 - 8-14-2012 at 10:00 PM

I would like to alleviate some of the misconceptions and misguided information here with some real world experience.

In the past i worked as a Pump Calibrator for a company (unnamed) contracted by the Big Oil companies and Suppliers.
My job was to measure flow through with my equipment (Truck Mounted)and calibrate the pumping rate put out by the Actual pump motor and Valve control system.
This system of calibration is adjusted and tuned to the Digital machine head (customer read out) via a scaled vernier dial Valve which is located at the Pump base.
The next time you are at the Fuel pump look at the sticker which says "Volume adjusted for temperature" this means that the rate of fuel pumped at a given temperature will be different when temperature changes with a given season.
The Oil companies typically adjust the pumps (my job) to give a rate of 2% extra in the cold months and the same calibration will claw back 2% in the hot months.
This adjustment when performed is very exact and true at the moment of setting, however..the calibration will not be true during the wild swings in temperature of Day Time -Night Time,,or Summer Time -Winter times due to the very nature of the fuels Gasoline/Ethenol/Methenol as they do indeed increase in volume and expansion in a given containment.
Typically the oil companies rip the public off to the tune of Hundreds of thousands of dollars every year PER FUEL STATION due to adjustments favoring their side of the margins.
I know this because it was part of my job to make it this way. (I resented it always) i hope that i have put this argument to rest finally..

Your Welcome:spingrin:

[Edited on 8-15-2012 by Nemo55]

durrelllrobert - 8-15-2012 at 10:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by J.P.
Wouldnt it be easier to learn gallon to leader conversion.:?::?::?::?::?::?::?::?:


Gallon to WHAT ???

Take me to your leader. I see the liter later :lol:

David K - 8-15-2012 at 10:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by durrelllrobert
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by J.P.
Wouldnt it be easier to learn gallon to leader conversion.:?::?::?::?::?::?::?::?:


Gallon to WHAT ???

Take me to your leader. I see the liter later :lol:


Oh wow, I never saw that his 'leader' was a liter! :lol:

Thank you Durrelllrobert!

laventana - 8-15-2012 at 12:12 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nemo55
I would like to alleviate some of the misconceptions and misguided information here with some real world experience.

In the past i worked as a Pump Calibrator for a company (unnamed) contracted by the Big Oil companies and Suppliers.
My job was to measure flow through with my equipment (Truck Mounted)and calibrate the pumping rate put out by the Actual pump motor and Valve control system.
This system of calibration is adjusted and tuned to the Digital machine head (customer read out) via a scaled vernier dial Valve which is located at the Pump base.
The next time you are at the Fuel pump look at the sticker which says "Volume adjusted for temperature" this means that the rate of fuel pumped at a given temperature will be different when temperature changes with a given season.
The Oil companies typically adjust the pumps (my job) to give a rate of 2% extra in the cold months and the same calibration will claw back 2% in the hot months.
This adjustment when performed is very exact and true at the moment of setting, however..the calibration will not be true during the wild swings in temperature of Day Time -Night Time,,or Summer Time -Winter times due to the very nature of the fuels Gasoline/Ethenol/Methenol as they do indeed increase in volume and expansion in a given containment.
Typically the oil companies rip the public off to the tune of Hundreds of thousands of dollars every year PER FUEL STATION due to adjustments favoring their side of the margins.
I know this because it was part of my job to make it this way. (I resented it always) i hope that i have put this argument to rest finally..

Your Welcome:spingrin:

[Edited on 8-15-2012 by Nemo55]
hmmm interesting. real adjuster that does calibration... you will be a wealth of information for us, the horses mouth so to speak...

Do all states require this seasonal calibration?

Yes this amount when added up over a year is very large at a single station, but in a car tank fill up my chem 101 off the cuff says somewhat insignificant.

What is the co-efficient of thermal expansion for gasoline? in C or F

What is the temperature differential in general of the gas in a ground container that should be used say in the southwest.

And can you give us the precision tolerance amount that a gas pump is accurate to. EI +/- 0.01 of a gallon?

Do you ever touch the circuit boards or chips in the circuit boards and do verification of these chips? If not who does?

[Edited on 8-15-2012 by laventana]

Cypress - 8-15-2012 at 12:20 PM

This is getting way too complicated! :biggrin:

Ateo - 8-15-2012 at 12:28 PM

Not one of my customers (gas station owners) has had their pumps calibrated twice a year for temperature correction - ever. Wonder when this was and which state?

Nemo55 - 8-15-2012 at 12:54 PM

The chips are another techs problem, My job was to essentially measure flow through on my truck mounted equipment and adjust accordingly.

All States and Provinces SUGGEST seasonal calibration, but the oil companies are largely left to police themselves along with the Contracted suppliers.

(the equipment on the truck was considered correct absolute)

As to the Formulas used to arrive at a given rate etc, this stuff i learned and answered during my training but quickly discarded when actually working in the field because of the "Shop Calibration" on the truck mounted equipment, No need for the operator to do much else except use his/her eyes, and the charts provided.

The Tolerance of any particular gas pump was largely immaterial unless there where wild fluctuations recorded.

For each ground container location there would be a (provided to me)check sheet giving any particular peculiarities but largely seen as insignificant unless in cases of leaks or Contaminant penetration to the tanks.

In reality my job was reduced to that of a Mechanic Technician Service Person, as the equipment on the truck and its Calibration was monitored and adjusted when needed, by a whole different department.

I don't have my manuals any longer(was required to return them when i quit) but wicki has the info you are looking for.(always made my head hurt)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_expansion

Most Station operators do not have the where withal to make any changes to the pumps without the help of the calibrating personnel (Me) and affecting change with the digital equipment on the Pump Head readout was definitely largely(except for very crude adjustments)outside of my capabilities.

Mostly they will be found to have broken the Seal put upon the Calibration Valve(by someone like me)and adjusted the flow rate themselves.

The Customer would never know if the rate was + or - even 30% unless they where dispensing the fuel into a calibration vessel.

But you can rest assured that a full 75% of the pumps out there are adjusted to favor the Oil companies in the region of 2% which is very hard to notice without the right equipment.

Nemo55 - 8-15-2012 at 01:05 PM

My work was in Canada although the company had it operations all the way through the United States.

Like i said, the Oil companies and Suppliers/Refiners(same animal)are left to police themselves.

Only a very few countries around the world have any Policing in this area of weights and Measurement.

The actual calibration and servicing of the pumps are for the benefit of the Pump owners and oil companies NOT the customers.
That the Customers may somehow reap any reward from their adjustments is largely by accident and not design.
And you are correct, that some gas station owners(especially independents) don't have calibration done on any regular basis.
Quote:
Originally posted by Ateo
Not one of my customers (gas station owners) has had their pumps calibrated twice a year for temperature correction - ever. Wonder when this was and which state?
:?:

Cielomar - 8-15-2012 at 01:22 PM

There was a thread similar to this last August. The gas stations in Todos Santos (in town one only) and in Pescadero are owned by the same guy and they rip off drivers by 12-15%. I was told by Mexican fiends to always use the lane closest to the road and to always order fuel by the liter. You don't have to be exact. So a 20 gallon tank will hold about 80 liters so I just order the amount closest to the 1/4 tank fuel marks on my gauge (20,40,60,80 liters). Bam- I got about 10% better fuel millage on the first tank.

Doing some research I was told that there is a software program all the unscrupulous dealers buy that plays with the peso amount only. They get tipped-off when Profeca is coming and turn the fuel counters back for the hour or so while being tested and then go on robbing people once Profeca issues the label you'll see displayed on the pumps. Others suspect that Profeca is on it but I'm not going to go there
Some station owners won't do this (the Pemex outside Todos Santos driving toward La Paz is owned by the ejido and is honest) but I suspect they are few and far between. Pemex knows all about it but chooses to support their dealers rather than the people. Is there a theme here? Don't worry the new PRI president will clean up this mess in the first month.

Nemo55 - 8-15-2012 at 01:34 PM

The problem as always can be traced back to the Oil companies, they give margins so small that the Station owners have very little profit after all costs are factored in.

Remember when service stations had full service?? have you ever wandered why they no longer do??
Quote:
Originally posted by Cielomar
There was a thread similar to this last August. The gas stations in Todos Santos (in town one only) and in Pescadero are owned by the same guy and they rip off drivers by 12-15%. I was told by Mexican fiends to always use the lane closest to the road and to always order fuel by the liter. You don't have to be exact. So a 20 gallon tank will hold about 80 liters so I just order the amount closest to the 1/4 tank fuel marks on my gauge (20,40,60,80 liters). Bam- I got about 10% better fuel millage on the first tank.

Doing some research I was told that there is a software program all the unscrupulous dealers buy that plays with the peso amount only. They get tipped-off when Profeca is coming and turn the fuel counters back for the hour or so while being tested and then go on robbing people once Profeca issues the label you'll see displayed on the pumps. Others suspect that Profeca is on it but I'm not going to go there
Some station owners won't do this (the Pemex outside Todos Santos driving toward La Paz is owned by the ejido and is honest) but I suspect they are few and far between. Pemex knows all about it but chooses to support their dealers rather than the people. Is there a theme here? Don't worry the new PRI president will clean up this mess in the first month.

laventana - 8-15-2012 at 02:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nemo55
The chips are another techs problem, My job was to essentially measure flow through on my truck mounted equipment and adjust accordingly.

All States and Provinces SUGGEST seasonal calibration, but the oil companies are largely left to police themselves along with the Contracted suppliers.

(the equipment on the truck was considered correct absolute)

As to the Formulas used to arrive at a given rate etc, this stuff i learned and answered during my training but quickly discarded when actually working in the field because of the "Shop Calibration" on the truck mounted equipment, No need for the operator to do much else except use his/her eyes, and the charts provided.

The Tolerance of any particular gas pump was largely immaterial unless there where wild fluctuations recorded.

For each ground container location there would be a (provided to me)check sheet giving any particular peculiarities but largely seen as insignificant unless in cases of leaks or Contaminant penetration to the tanks.

In reality my job was reduced to that of a Mechanic Technician Service Person, as the equipment on the truck and its Calibration was monitored and adjusted when needed, by a whole different department.

I don't have my manuals any longer(was required to return them when i quit) but wicki has the info you are looking for.(always made my head hurt)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermal_expansion

Most Station operators do not have the where withal to make any changes to the pumps without the help of the calibrating personnel (Me) and affecting change with the digital equipment on the Pump Head readout was definitely largely(except for very crude adjustments)outside of my capabilities.

Mostly they will be found to have broken the Seal put upon the Calibration Valve(by someone like me)and adjusted the flow rate themselves.

The Customer would never know if the rate was + or - even 30% unless they where dispensing the fuel into a calibration vessel.

But you can rest assured that a full 75% of the pumps out there are adjusted to favor the Oil companies in the region of 2% which is very hard to notice without the right equipment.


thanks for the detailed post I do appreciate it....
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