BajaNomad - The fish are gone

The fish are gone

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David K - 12-21-2011 at 08:55 AM

Egg-zackly! :biggrin:

durrelllrobert - 12-21-2011 at 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

do you think we could genetically engineer a sardine that yields a high when smoked or snorted?

I love smoked sardines, yummy

backninedan - 12-21-2011 at 09:39 AM

I tried smoking sardines but couldn't keep them lit.

wessongroup - 12-21-2011 at 09:42 AM

Good to see sides haven't changed... on this ... or the economy ..

As it's ALL really tied together ... great news ... for Christmas... NOT !!

wilderone - 12-21-2011 at 10:43 AM

“You just do not understand that you have to get out on that Water, day afte Day, watch the Birds, observe the changes in the Water, dive around the islands, talk to the old time mesican Fisherman, in other words be a Part of it and be honest about what you see.”

I HAVE – USED TO SNORKLE AT CONCEPTION BAY IN 1972 – SAW DAMSEL FISH, CAUGHT TRIGGER FISH FROM SHORE, DIVED FOR SCALLOPS, LOTS OF SEA GRASSES – NOW NOTHING - NOTHING – NOTHING. KAYAKED AND SNORKLED ALL OVER THE ISLANDS OFF BOLA IN 2005 – NOTHING – NOTHING – NOTHING. NOT EVEN ENOUGH FOR AN OSPREY TO FEED ITS CHICKS – I WATCHED IT FOR 3 DAYS.

When is the last time YOU were in the water and observed, Skeet?
Do you really believe the Mexican fishermen will tell you it hasn't changed for the worse? You refuse to educate yourself - you re in denial. Foolish.

David K - 12-21-2011 at 10:48 AM

Again, in 1972 the paved road south ended in San Quintin and didn't begin again until Santa Rosalia... that gap kept out the masses of fishermen and noise that keep the fish away!

Save the fish, remove Hwy. 1 !! :lol:

wessongroup - 12-21-2011 at 11:12 AM

DK... have to agree with you on the road ... it all changed with the road... big time

But, as they say ... "progress" ... like it or not

[Edited on 12-21-2011 by wessongroup]

Skeet/Loreto - 12-21-2011 at 11:51 AM

I too have been i conception and Yes when they let the Clam Fisherman come in and they took all the Clams, Yes the Fish MOVED OUT TO OTHER AREAS.

i WAS ON THE WATER 6 MONTHS AGO, 2 YEARS AGO i FISHED AND OBSERVED fISH ON TOP OF THE WATER BY THE mILLONS, bAIT fISH, bIRDS .\nOW WE SEE pHOTOS OF sARDINES BY THE mILLIONS.

wHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU pEOPLE.
yES THE FISHINF HAS BEEN AFFECTED AND DECLINED IN hARD hIT aREAS BUT TO MAKE A STATEMENT THAT THE fISH ARE gONE IS sTUPID. sTUPID!!!!!!!

sancho - 12-21-2011 at 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Arriving in Loreto in1967 I started fishing wigh Alvaro Murillo in his wooden Panga for $20 a Day staying at the Hotel Oasis for $9 a Day with 3 meals.

I generally acquiesce to experience/longeviety, and I will here, '67 is a ways back, but scientific observation/theory
should be included when forming an opinion,
I do like the way you never waver from your position
Merry XMas Sr. Skeet

Skeet/Loreto - 12-21-2011 at 01:28 PM

The Fish are in the Sea of Cortez and will always be there!!

MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL NOMADS

Let us all have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New year.

Skeet/Loreto

motoged - 12-21-2011 at 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pompano
.... I gave up drinking. So, I'll toast you with a beer. [/size]

Now THERE is some Skeeter logic :biggrin:

I am amazed that a simple story about Agua Verde has the most hits on this forum lately.

Maybe my next missive will be: "There are SOME Fish left" :saint:

Happy Holy Daze, amigos

Bajatripper - 12-21-2011 at 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

... and the animal will return if it is meant to be.

Talk about leaving things up in the air, as if science didn't exist and we didn't know anything.

What, please tell me, do you use to inform your opinion, David? What do you read? Or is it all based on your personal observations?

redhilltown - 12-22-2011 at 01:27 AM

The fish are not gone...but there is no doubt there are less of them. You cannot CANNOT compare a world of 70 years ago to one of now with billions more people that need to be fed...or want a sushi dinner. As long as there is a buck to be made the fish will continue to decline and it is not the sport fishermen but the commercial fleets. I have seen it first hand where we find the school and struggle to land six to ten fish and then the trawler shows up (via the spotter plane), sends out the nets and grabs thousands in less than 30 minutes.

The Sea of Cortez since it is completely controlled by the Mexican government could be the model of the world on how to properly manage and control a body of water.

Don't hold yer breath.

David K - 12-22-2011 at 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajatripper

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

... and the animal will return if it is meant to be.

Good morning Steve!

Of ALL the cool replies I posted in this thread, you grabbed a small part of one I wrote 5 days ago to ask me about? Seriously?

Let's quote my full reply instead of just a portion of it... you know as a refresher after 5 days:

>>> "Another point is one that the Sierra Club and other leftist organizations never mention, and that is that we humans are a natural part of this planet just as much as the sardines and turtles.

Yes, we can eat until a species is reduced to a point that we eat something else... but, Nature is so far stronger than man ever gives it credit for and the animal will return if it is meant to be.

One thing for certain is change... If you live long enough, things are going to be changing before your eyes... Sardines will disappear... and perhaps come back again more than before... The weather will seem warmer for a few years, then we will have the coldest years...

We have changed our habits and have performed differently than the past as far as limiting our take of certain species, eco-management if it proves to benefit our ability to take from the sea on a regular basis. The co-ops of Bahia Asuncion, Abreojos, etc. seem to have it down as a science. Great!

The main point here is to have some faith in Planet Earth, not blame humans for everything, and just do the best you can at living your life." <<<

Is it still "up in the air" now, with the rest of the post included?

My point (if still not clear) is that Nature (God, Mother Earth, or ???) is the normal and natural operation going on here on earth. Mankind can no more change what Nature intends on the earth than Al Gore can admit he has lied to you about Global Warming... :lol:

Have a great day and a Merry Christmas!!!

Pescador - 12-22-2011 at 08:54 AM

We have argued this point before and will continue to argue it again. But the fish stocks are way down in the middle Sea of Cortez. I fish this almost every day and for the last five years have fished it with the pangueros who make their living from the sea. So I am constantly talking to the divers, the netters, the hand liners, and the guys who put out long lines. First, we have had a serious La Nina effect which has moved the Squid out of the Santa Rosalia area and moved them way up north where there is still an active upwelling. This has also changed the migration patterns of the yellowtail and they are showing up in shorter supply than normal. So on one hand Skeet is probably right, if you want to see more fish you have to go to different areas. That may well be right, but the reality is that 10 years ago, you did not have to do that and the populations were so strong that when one school moved out another was right behind it to take its place. When we fish the reefs of Tortuga Island and San Marcos we know when a group of fish has migrated in to the area as all the fish have the same characteristics and personality and are of a consistency in size. In maybe a week or less, they get replaced by another school or group of fish and things change enough so that your presentation and methods of catching have to change a little also. But now, what happens is that we have voids of when the fish move on and we might wait for a week or more for another group to move in and take their place. I think this happens because of the increased pressure of netting where the locals haul in 20-50 tons of fish in a days time. In the old days they were unable to net yellowtail in close to the rocks because it meant total destruction of your nets, but they have learned to put 5- 10 divers over the side and they move the nets to the middle over the rocks and of course take every swimming finned creature that moves as well. So they are wiping out the majority of a school which is not there in the normal migration. So what we feel are these major gaps in migration schools.

Now, with a hook and a line, it is almost impossible to wipe out a complete school of fish because only a few fish who see the bait are going to go after it. I have been diving and observed a yellowtail school and only a couple of the fish are normally motivated to eat a bait properly presented to them. So, with normal rod and reel or handline, you will only skim the surface of available fish and the rest are able to go on. Netting, on the other hand takes everything that swims into the area of the net. That is why the Yellowfin Tuna which used to be so prevelant in the Sea of Cortez is now becoming a rare catch.

One of the species that is showing serious depletion is the grouper and bottom fishes. These are specific location fish and are readily overfished and overharvested. There is a sea mount straight east of Punta Chivato which used to hold massive amounts of Baqueta or Gulf Coney fish. These were very difficult to fish as the depths ranged from 425 to 675 feet so conditions had to be right for harvest. The pangueros from Mulege found that there were a lot of fish and the market was very good for the Baqueta since it brought almost 4 times as much as Yellowtail so they started to really pound that area. They used Simbras which is like a long line with 100's of hooks but anchored deep at both ends. They completely wiped out the entire population and after leaving it alone since the fish were gone, it has taken almost 10 years for any fish to return to the area and now there are a limited number of fish available for those who are persistent.

So, Skeet is right at one point, there are still a lot of fish in the Sea of Cortez and it is possible to see the massive surface boils he describes. Two days ago, we had a massive boil of feeding fish on the North end of San Marcos Island, but the fish moved out the next day and we may not see anything more for at least a week.

Another interesting point is the size of yellowtail. In the last 4 years I have caught bigger yellowtail than I have ever seen in these waters. On one hand that sounds like a good thing, but when examined, it is obvious that less competition for the available food will let some fish grow to largers sizes than normal, but as with fresh water lakes where that happens, it is usually one of the indicators that the numbers of fish are down.

Because I am so closely involved with the pangueros of our area and have kept fairly accurate records for the last 5 years or so, I can easily say that the numbers are dwindling rapidly and the catch of the commercial guys is way down from even two years ago. Squid have been non-existent for the last three years (but that is weather related), so the fishermen are moving on to other ways to make a living for their families. Thank goodness the Boleo Mine came in when it did and has offered a alternative to the harvest of the sea. It is still sad though to see things go that rapidly downhill in such a short time.

Russ - 12-22-2011 at 09:02 AM

"Mankind can no more change what Nature intends on the earth than Al Gore can admit he has lied to you about Global Warming... :lol:

"

Respectfully I disagree with you. Man is the only critter that CAN change for good or bad some of what was or is.

[Edited on 12-22-2011 by Russ]

Please excuse this short hijack.

Pompano - 12-22-2011 at 09:19 AM

I am a history buff...and so will pontificate on some notable history involving world change by non-humans.

Rats, through the diseases they carry, have probably killed more people than any war or natural disaster. In the 13th and 14th centuries, Europle lost up to 60% of it's population. Added to that was the devastation in China. The total loss of the world's population is estimated to be 100 million people.

Are you still drinking your morning coffee? Goats may have been the first to discover it.

Viva History!

Skeet/Loreto - 12-22-2011 at 09:45 AM

Vag:

Very well said and very Truthful!!

Skeet/Loreto

MitchMan - 12-22-2011 at 11:28 AM

With regard to the issue of fish stocks in the Sea of Cortez these days, or global warming or Climate Change or whether or not Man is causing either or all of these circumstances, it seems to me to be off track, delusional, unrealistic, illogical, and down right irresponsible to assess these issues using a faith based perspective instead of a fact based perspective.

While nature certainly has regenerative qualities and the complexity of the universe presents a face of perpetual change, it is folly to have a blind faith that all will work out on its own. You know, there have been many permanent changes such as extinction of many animals and vegetation.

To ignore and discount the effect of accelerated and often wreckless consumption by a growing human population aided by the harvesting efficiencies of technology which often occurs in excess due to human self interest (such excesses often causing damaging externalities) is just plain wrong and wrong headed. Such a perspective will certainly not yield any solutions. Keep in mind that the emerging countries of China and India and others are now just starting to come on board in an accelerated way as consumers.

Just what do you faith-based people think that will do to mother earth? The USA currently consumes 25% of the world's resources and we are only 5% of the world's population. Be fact based for a few monents and do the math considering that the emerging countries are going to be consuming proportionately more and more as they come on board. We have 5% of the world's population and they together have over 40%. Come on, think with your head! Not that complicated.

The question is whether or not the damaging by products and externalities of recent past, current and future consumption will out strip nature's ability to regenerate and recuperate from such damage. Those of you who are faith based are either not asking yourselves that question or you are unwittingly refusing to ask the question.

redhilltown - 12-22-2011 at 11:30 AM

"Yes, we can eat until a species is reduced to a point that we eat something else... but, Nature is so far stronger than man ever gives it credit for and the animal will return if it is meant to be."

Meant to be? Like, animals have a destiny? If the next Yellowtail I catch is wearing a crucifix...

motoged - 12-22-2011 at 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by redhilltown
the animal will return if it is meant to be."

Why do I hear Doris Day singing "Que sera sera..."? :biggrin:

Skeet/Loreto - 12-22-2011 at 12:12 PM

FACTS are FActs!

Basically I am not denying that there are effects of Over fishing of a certain Fish will cause it to decrease.
The only TRUE Fact I know about the demise of a Fish in the Sea of Cortez is the Tortouva up near San Felipe. The Factual reason is that this fish did not migrate in and out of the Sea like yellowtail, Dorado, Squid, etc.

Yes Population Growth is the biggest problem. But What do the Non-beleivers say to do?? How will be Eat?? Clothe themselves??

I have seen and heard the same old thing for 50 years about Fishing. We are now eating a lot of Farm Grown Fish and Shrimp and Oysters.
The Faith Based People always have the Hope that thing will change, and generally they do, like the Large Growth in Sharks after being taken and taken.

The biggest Problem facing us is GREED, Not over fishing. Just look at\the Obseity!!Somehow we are going to have to teach our next couple of Generations the MORALS of life.
I think that we will have more Wars and I think maybe some Plague to take care of a lot of Population.

One of the Main things that I object to is the Out Right Lying and Cheating of the organizations the claim to be trying to do something to stop Fishing. I understand that many of them are doing it to Scare People into their way of thinking so that they might have Control. It is a Communist/Socialist way of trying to Destroy a Great Country like ours by attacking our Way of Life and getting more Govt control.
So many of the above type People have never been to the Sea of Cortez!!!!!!!!

mtgoat666 - 12-22-2011 at 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
One of the Main things that I object to is the Out Right Lying and Cheating of the organizations the claim to be trying to do something to stop Fishing.

skeet:
the organizations that persist and successfully raise funds to fight the good fight do not lie and cheat. if they did lie and cheat, they would lose donors. you only prove yourself to be an a$$ when you accuse people of lieing just because they disagree with you. you want to be taken seriously, quit making childish accusations.

Barry A. - 12-22-2011 at 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
One of the Main things that I object to is the Out Right Lying and Cheating of the organizations the claim to be trying to do something to stop Fishing.

It has been my experience, working for a "Resources Management Agency" (BLM & Natl. Pk. Serv.) for over 30 years, that Skeet has it about right-------the eco-friendly organizations will do practically anything to get their way (tho they really do seem to believe what they say)----I have seen it over and over again. Is it any wonder that many of us don't take these organizations very seriously anymore??? There is a lot of information out there debunking much of what the over-zealous enviro folks say, and print, about the dire consequences of our ways, and I have personally witnessed it over and over again working in the California Desert for so many years. Things are NOT all rosy, but the hand-wringing of some is way over the top, IMO & experience, and their efforts to shove their ideas down our throats is not received well by many, especially when so much of it is just so very exagerated, and downright bunk.

Barry

mtgoat666 - 12-22-2011 at 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
One of the Main things that I object to is the Out Right Lying and Cheating of the organizations the claim to be trying to do something to stop Fishing.

see, that is opposite of my experience. in my experience it is the natural resource extractors and their lap dog stooges in resource agencies that are the liars.

seeing as how we are talking about fishing and marine ecosystems, how about the japanese that persist in whaling for "scientific research?" and how about the IWC members that vote along with japan in exchange for kickbacks from japan in form of "economic development aid?"

oh, and don't get me started on how many consultants have written shady questionable studies (dare i say packs of lies) to support NEPA review of projects on federal public lands.

and how many blm employees have broken the law or committed unethical acts to support loggers and ranchers efforts to abuse public lands?

enviro folks have to be vocal in the face of overwhelming corporate dollars committed to raping public lands and oceans. while corporate interests have money to buy politicians and staff support, enviro groups have to wage the good fight on smaller budgets. barry, you remind me of what is wrong with BLM staffers who dismiss environmentalists and suck up to industry.

Barry A. - 12-22-2011 at 01:06 PM

-------and there you have it, folks---------the OTHER SIDE of the story!!! and with the typical "insults" thrown in, as usual!!! :lol:

Thank goodness we all do make up our own mind, and hopefully vote accordingly.

MERRY CHRISTMAS, Goat. :yes:

Barry

ps I agree with you, Goat on the whales----some of the other issues not so much.

sancho - 12-22-2011 at 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
quote]

Is it any wonder that many of us don't take these organizations very seriously anymore??? Barry

Speak for yourself Sergeant Friday, it may take a little
more intellect than some of YOU posess to comprehend the mission of some of the Conservation groups. Your bias
statement makes a pathetic attempt to taint groups such as the
Cousteau Society. With a view like that, do us all a favor
and stay in No Cal and out Baja

mtgoat666 - 12-22-2011 at 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
-------and there you have it, folks---------the OTHER SIDE of the story!!! and with the typical "insults" thrown in, as usual!!! :lol:

Thank goodness we all do make up our own mind, and hopefully vote accordingly.

MERRY CHRISTMAS, Goat. :yes:

Barry

ps I agree with you, Goat on the whales----some of the other issues not so much.

sierra club has done much to protect public lands. i wholly support efforts of sierra club, nature conservancy, NRDC, greenpeace, WDF, WDCS, and a host of others. if it wasn't for efforts of groups like that, govt employees would have long ago auctioned off the last scraps of wilderness and open space.

barry, if citizens don't fight their government, government will do the bidding of the corporations and corporate lobbyists.

the western US would not have set aside open space and wilderness if not for the efforts of citizens working thru non-profit orgs.

so what if the orgs are occasionally a bit over the top? they have accomplished so much that is good!

Barry A. - 12-22-2011 at 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sancho

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
quote]

Is it any wonder that many of us don't take these organizations very seriously anymore??? Barry

Yes Sir, Yes Sir, Sancho-----------I am sooooo ashamed to be making such "pathetic" statements--------

I calls em like I see em, and of COURSE they are only 'my' thoughts, not yours, just mine. Hopefully Corp heads are reading this, and will send me the usual mega-check in the mail. :lol:

I respect ANY organization that tells the truth------those that don't I try and call them out. I don't recall mentioning the "Cousteau Society", and in fact have had their decals on my "Baja Rig" for over 25 years, and have been a member that long. (such rash generalizations you make here) :?:

--------and a MERRY CHRISTMAS to you, too. :bounce:

Barry

Roberto - 12-22-2011 at 01:35 PM

Skeet, take your preaching of MORALS, etc., and stick it where the sun don't shine.

Roberto - 12-22-2011 at 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sancho

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
quote]

Is it any wonder that many of us don't take these organizations very seriously anymore??? Barry

Why is it that people like you can't make a point without attacking the person? Of course, I know the answer, but I really WOULD be interested in hearing your explanation.

Will I get one? No, of course not. If you respond, it'll come in the form of a personal attack.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-22-2011 at 01:43 PM

Goat: An Example:

In the Beautifull Yosemite Natl. Park:

Some years ago the Sierra Club decided there were too many People Hiking the John Muir Trail. They decided to do a study to try to get enough information to Limmit the Number of Hikers; What They did.

They sent 30 to 35 Young People along the John Muir to measure how deep it was getting each yoear. If it went over 2 inches in a year they were going to limit the Hikers in that area.

At and Near South Lake Pass there were about 30 of them that spent several Days Naked and smoking Dope and swimming in the Creek near the Trail. Went back and Reported the Trail should not be used next year!!!

I can agree on some of the larger Companies using the Natrual Resoures and not cleaning up afterward. Most of the use of that Land involves giving People Jobs and yes making Money such as the Forest Land and Harvesting of Trees Building Affordable Houses and then Bigger Houses{GREED Again} Same with the building of Cars Bigger and more expensive Cars.

Question Goat: Why do these Nuts come on this site and Cry "The Sea of Cortez is Ruined!! Most have never seen it.

Goat do you want me to give you half of my Money that I make next year????.

Barry A. - 12-22-2011 at 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
-------and there you have it, folks---------the OTHER SIDE of the story!!! and with the typical "insults" thrown in, as usual!!! :lol:

Thank goodness we all do make up our own mind, and hopefully vote accordingly.

MERRY CHRISTMAS, Goat. :yes:

Barry

ps I agree with you, Goat on the whales----some of the other issues not so much.

Agree with some of what you say, but "over the top" erodes their credibility and is so foolish, in my mind, in that it dilutes their message. I and my family left the Sierra Club (cancelled our membership) years ago because they lied about enviro-impacts of a much needed proposed ski resort in the Eastern Sierra, thereby killing it---------to me that is inexcusable!!!

I consider myself an environmentalist (Sancho would not agree) but not a "radical" one--------I want a balanced approach, and acccept "man" as part of the environment---------radical enviro's appear to want to just shut everything down to man, period. I can't support that phylosophy---it is unrealistic.

Barry

[Edited on 12-22-2011 by Barry A.]

Roberto - 12-22-2011 at 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
sierra club has done much to protect public lands. i wholly support efforts of sierra club, nature conservancy, NRDC, greenpeace, WDF, WDCS, and a host of others. if it wasn't for efforts of groups like that, govt employees would have long ago auctioned off the last scraps of wilderness and open space.

barry, if citizens don't fight their government, government will do the bidding of the corporations and corporate lobbyists.

the western US would not have set aside open space and wilderness if not for the efforts of citizens working thru non-profit orgs.

so what if the orgs are occasionally a bit over the top? they have accomplished so much that is good!

What about this? You support this pack of lies, propaganda and distortion too?

mtgoat666 - 12-22-2011 at 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto

Quote:

What about this? You support this pack of lies, propaganda and distortion too?

Keystone pipeline should not be exempted from NEPA. GOP is trying to exempt it from any and all enviro review. Shame on the GOP!

p.s. I think tar sands mining in Canada is creating a large swath of destruction. I find it sad to see such bad practices laying waste to so much land,... but that is unassociated with pipeline route. The route selection should go thru enviro review like all other projects!

mtgoat666 - 12-22-2011 at 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
-------and there you have it, folks---------the OTHER SIDE of the story!!! and with the typical "insults" thrown in, as usual!!! :lol:

Thank goodness we all do make up our own mind, and hopefully vote accordingly.

MERRY CHRISTMAS, Goat. :yes:

Barry

ps I agree with you, Goat on the whales----some of the other issues not so much.

Agree with some of what you say, but "over the top" erodes their credibility and is so foolish, in my mind, in that it dilutes their message. I and my family left the Sierra Club (cancelled our membership) years ago because they lied about enviro-impacts of a much needed proposed ski resort in the Eastern Sierra, thereby killing it---------to me that is inexcusable!!!

I consider myself an environmentalist (Sancho would not agree) but not a "radical" one--------I want a balanced approach, and except "man" as part of the environment---------radical enviro's appear to want to just shut everything down to man, period. I can't support that phylosophy---it is unrealistic.

Barry

barry,
see, that is hypocritical.. you probably support GOP even though you might not agree with all of their platform nor all of their political hyperbole.

if you agree with 90% of what sierra club does, you should support them! silly to disown them over one project position!

mtgoat666 - 12-22-2011 at 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Goat do you want me to give you half of my Money that I make next year????.

Sure! I will U2U my address. Please send checks quarterly. Thanks!

Barry A. - 12-22-2011 at 02:24 PM

Mt. Goat said above-------,
"barry,
see, that is hypocritical.. you probably support GOP even though you might not agree with all of their platform nor all of their political hyperbole.

if you agree with 90% of what sierra club does, you should support them! silly to disown them over one project position! "

I simply don't agree, Goat----------if the Sierra Club lied about something I knew intimately about (I lived close by), then how can I possibly trust them to not lie about things that I know little about??? I can't do that. Trust is EVERYTHING!!! especially on matters this important. No hypocracy there (and besides we are ALL hypocrits----All of us). This last article within this thread on the KEYSTONE PIPELINE is a case in point-----they (the eco-radicals) are STILL practicing dishonest journalism------they have little credibility with me, and have not for years.

I am a Republican, and a semi-right-wing one at that (I was a moderate prior to the Obama era)--------and so far I support the Republican platform, at this stage in the process anyway, especially on economic issues.

Barry

salttram - 12-22-2011 at 02:24 PM

"and the animal will return if it is meant to be."

Really? And what faith-based brain trust leads you to that conclusion? Maybe we ought to just return to slavery and human sacrifice to please the god(s)!

Hopefully the return of Kim Jong Il and Adolf Hitler isn't "meant to be".

I'm sorry, but that is just about the most craptastic thing I've read in quite a while . . .

Barry A. - 12-22-2011 at 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by salttram
"and the animal will return if it is meant to be."

Really? And what faith-based brain trust leads you to that conclusion? Maybe we ought to just return to slavery and human sacrifice to please the god(s)!

Hopefully the return of Kim Jong Il and Adolf Hitler isn't "meant to be".

I'm sorry, but that is just about the most craptastic thing I've read in quite a while . . .

I will stick my neck out and say---------I believe what the author of that statement meant is that Nature is so complex and not understood that none of us REALLY know what will happen down the line----------so therefore making incredibly costly decisions designed to change natural phenominae is the height of folly, arrogance, wasteful, and there is no money to do it anyway.

Nothing "religious" about it, in my view.

Barry

Barry A. - 12-22-2011 at 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto
Skeet, take your preaching of MORALS, etc., and stick it where the sun don't shine.

Skeet-------

Personally, I am not a religious guy, but I, for one like your preaching MORALS, if for no other reason than to remind us that there really IS such a thing as "morals", and we all NEED to remember that.

MERRY CHRISTMAS, Skeet----and Roberto too.

Barry

Skeet/Loreto - 12-22-2011 at 03:43 PM

Roberto:

Morals: Roberto you should watch things that Happen in the Panhandle of Texas[ This is the most "Giving" place I have ever lived. It is nearly unbeleiveable the Way people give to the Needy and the Homeless.
That is Morals!!
Circumscribing our Desires and Keep our Passions within Due Bounds takes Honesty, Kindness, Caring.
If you do not have those I feel for you and will say Prayers for you and any Loved Ones you may Have around..The Prisons are Full of People with No Morals, Children are Abused each day by People with no Morals.

Roberto: God Bless You and have a Merry Christmas.

Skeet/Loreto

sancho - 12-22-2011 at 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto

Why is it that people like you can't make a point without attacking the person? Of course, I know the answer, but I really WOULD be interested in hearing your explanation.

You're reading too much into it , that was not a personal attack. It defies logic why a person
can imply he travels to and enjoys Baja, in it's rather unspoiled
natural state, for the most part, all the while berating
and not believe in organizations that work to preserve such environments,
no sense what so ever, total contradiction

Roberto - 12-22-2011 at 04:39 PM

Quote:

Speak for yourself Sergeant Friday, it may take a little
more intellect than some of YOU posess to comprehend the mission of some of the Conservation groups.

So calling someone stupid is not a personal attack. If you say so, it must be true. :lol:

David K - 12-22-2011 at 04:41 PM

Sancho... some of us can see that "some" organizations are NOT at all serious about the environment as much as they are about gaining power OVER the people (funding, closing public lands, to the public, etc.)...

Don't be so trusting in an ALL powerful government that TAKES AWAY our rights (to our land)... in the name of some nobel cause...

Roberto - 12-22-2011 at 04:55 PM

Quote:

Keystone pipeline should not be exempted from NEPA. GOP is trying to exempt it from any and all enviro review. Shame on the GOP!

Dude, there have been environmental studies done.

Quote:

On July 6, 2010, House Energy and Commerce Committee chairman Henry Waxman urged the State Department to block Keystone XL, saying in a letter to the department that "this pipeline is a multi-billion dollar investment to expand our reliance on the dirtiest source of transportation fuel currently available".[20][21] On July 21, 2010, the Environmental Protection Agency said the draft environmental impact study for Keystone XL was inadequate and should be revised, indicating that the State Department's original report was "unduly narrow" because it didn't fully look at oil spill response plans, safety issues and greenhouse gas concerns.[22][23][24] The final environmental impact report was released on August 26, 2011. It stated that the pipeline would pose "no significant impacts" to most resources if environmental protection measures are followed, but it would present "significant adverse effects to certain cultural resources".[25] However, summer/fall, 2011, protests brought the challenge to the White House, leading ultimately to the President's November, 2011, postponement of the decision until 2013.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_Pipeline

The truth is that the "environmentalists" complained, the studies were done, the results were not what they wanted them to be, so they want more studies.

We, as a country, are completely burying the possibility of recovery and more in the name of unproven environmental concerns. We need to answer a simple question:

How far are we willing to go to and allow environmental concerns limit the economic viability of this country and the people that live here. One thing is certain, without a throttle, we are going to destroy the essence of this country and what makes it different from much of the world - economic freedom from our government. Given what has happened in the EU, and the evidence that brings to the table regarding the viability of centrally controlled economies, I submit that we should proceed with great caution in giving our government control over our destiny. And, with that, I have nothing left to say.

Oh yeah, I guess we should ask the fish what is Nature intends to be. :lol:

Roberto - 12-22-2011 at 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
nobel cause...

as opposed to noble?

Words mean things, and not being able to spell them reveals more than you might think about your understanding of them.
I suggest you learn to spell in your own language before you bug everyone about place names in a language you can't even speak.

Barry A. - 12-22-2011 at 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sancho

Quote:

No, Sancho, it does not "defy logic" in my mind---------it's the matter of extremes that I object to-----certain eco-organizations, or radical people controlling those organizations, have taken "preservation" to extremes, to the detriment of mankind in general. National Parks should be protected and remain as natural as practical while still allowing for man's use (that is their Mandate). Some remote natural areas being designated "wilderness" is appropriate, etc.. but tying up millions and millions of acres previously open to multible public & private uses into "Wilderness" designation is going to extremes to my way of thinking, and is counter-productive and detrimental to the well-being of mankind. This happens, I think, because the huge majority of people never use or even visit these areas, and therefore don't object to them being bottled up under very strick Wilderness designation, but for the folks that have used them for years it is a disaster, and a huge infringment on their lives, business, and pleasure, and for what??? So other's can sit back and marvel at the existance of something that most will never even see, or use. Makes no sense to me, and it is anti-man in my judgement. It is a knee-jerk reaction to the few who abuse the lands------punish the many for the crimes of a few--------oh, that makes good sense, eh??? (close a hyway because a few have accidents??? etc. etc..). THAT defies logic, to me, and it always has.

The fact that you apparently can't see that, or understand that, baffles me!!! But, you are not alone------and I suppose you & others will fight and insult to get-your-way, regardless of the opinion of others-------that is 'the way' with many (most?) eco-radicals-----we 'know' what is best. Jeeezo, that seems like real arrogance, to me.

Barry

comitan - 12-22-2011 at 06:26 PM

Roberto

BRAVO!!!!!!!!

woody with a view - 12-22-2011 at 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
nobel cause...

LMFAO

captkw - 12-22-2011 at 07:03 PM

you Kid's can b-tch...Me,,,Im going FISHING !!!!

woody with a view - 12-22-2011 at 08:15 PM

unless my Mexican friend was named DK who had an American edumacation.

but who gives a P-nche mierda?

Merry Christmas to all and to all a Good Night!

salttram - 12-22-2011 at 09:26 PM

I think if the DOE could plug into and tap all the "thermal energy" emanating from the Nomad forums, we could do away with the Keystone XL Pipeline, solar farms in the desert, AND the fantasy of "clean coal".

It might even make the Sierra Club happy . . .

vgabndo - 12-22-2011 at 11:30 PM

Makes perfect sence to me! Excepting that most handicaps are involuntary, and a Google account puts a spell checker on my Nomad posts.

capn.sharky - 12-23-2011 at 10:35 AM

"The Prisons are Full of People with No Morals" Skeeter--you forgot about the Congress and Senate of the United States---they should be in the prisons.....

805gregg - 12-24-2011 at 10:13 AM

Anyone here remember when there were conch in Baha Conception? I got one once when camped at Coyote, where did they go?

Skeet/Loreto - 12-24-2011 at 10:34 AM

Greeg: I know where 3 Boxes of them are right Now!

In my Garage. I am thinking about taking them out and start selling them, collected them around Kilometer 78 on the Southern area of Conception in the early 70"s before the road opened. I must say they are Beautifull and very hard to find here in the States.

Skeet

redhilltown - 12-24-2011 at 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 805gregg
Anyone here remember when there were conch in Baha Conception? I got one once when camped at Coyote, where did they go?

I think they went---along with every other living organism on the planet---to the Best Buy in Torrance yesterday about noon...or at least that was my visual take on the situation!!!!!!!!!!!!

mtgoat666 - 12-24-2011 at 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by sancho

Quote:

barry,
so you say the creation of wilderness benefits few? i say the natural resource extraction usually benefits few. and the destructive ORV use benefits few. you can't make decisions about preservation on basis of who uses it most. preservation of wilderness benefits us all, benefits the planet, benefits the other critters on the planet.

the fact is: once land, flora and fauna are destroyed they cannot be returned to natural state. the few users locked out by wilderness designation can go somewhere else to accomplish same activities. ecosystems cannot relocate their activities.

people are passionate about use of public lands. having seen so much land destroyed in my lifetime, i can NEVER fault people trying to save the last few scraps of public land before destruction through extraction of over use or development. the world has a limited and finite amount of wilderness left, i am all for saving ALL of it. if we slowly chip away at wilderness, some day there will be none left.

David K - 12-24-2011 at 11:03 AM

Saving if for WHO???

It is PUBLIC land... WE are the public! While there are a few people who break the rules (in all areas of life), there is no need to punish the rest of us tax payers from enjoing the land we pay for, with repect.

Driving a 4WD or ORV on a dirt path or dirt road does 'not ruin' anything... I mean the road is already there (we cannot make new dirt roads on public lands) for access to see and enjoy the area.

It is a great way to introduce the wilderness to everyone. Since tax payers have jobs, the use of a vehicle allows the experience in our limited off time. Maybe ex-hippies living on welfair have time to hike for days and days? Not all of us have such disrespect for society to not work as much as we can.

The desert is the most durable terrain on earth... a wind storm or flash flood or earthquake erases any trace of a vehicle being there. Closing down a sand dune to dune buggies because you don't like the tracks they leave is as insane as closing down Snow Summit because of the tracks skiers leave! I think the snow is prettier without the ski tracks on it... so we should ban snow boards and skis??? :lol:

Pompano - 12-24-2011 at 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 805gregg
Anyone here remember when there were conch in Baha Conception? I got one once when camped at Coyote, where did they go?

Yes, I remember them well, Gregg. They lined the sea bottom at one time, but naturally were over-harvested by ignorant or uncaring commercial ...and yes, our local divers...gone now like the bay scallops and all the rock scallops, sea cukes, lobster, almost all shrimp/fish, etc...wait till they find a market for sand!!

Some of those conch are still around...but they are just empty shells thrown in with the rest of your shell collections.

Now back in the day....

(Carumba!... I am getting to hate that expression...so many of Baja's wonders are now extinct and reverently referred to as.. 'Back in the day'.)...

Rock scallops, nautalis, etc..all kinds of shells were everywhere.
I wish we had abs back then, too..not so.

...anyway... I used to make a hearty conch soup (or stew if I forgot to watch the pot)and only needed a couple for our dinner (2 people) In 1971, they were literally everywhere in the BOC (Bay of Conception).

Manuel Diaz of Rcho Coyote taught me How To Get The Conch Meat Out Of It's Shell...in a way that made the gals grimace, we would snag a peice of the conch meat with a hook on a short length of fishing line and hang the conch from the veranda shade..and very, very slowly the meat would unwind from the shell...maybe nasty to look at, but effective, easy, and it was The Baja Way.

Santa Barbara Cove was a particulary nice spot to dive for conch and the botejones(sp?).. large yellow clams..that I added to the soup/stews. Of course you always picked up some chocolates and steamers, too. Fill your shopping list in one spot!

You found good use for the empty shells after the feast:

Directly across the Bay from mi casa was the very best sea bottom to find lots of conch...and the gals went crazy beachcombing. Crazy beautiful, though.. :yes:

Ah...I got to quit now, getting my blood pressure up way too high thinking about all we have lost in Baja. :mad:

Adios, it's time for poker at Ana's...y'know..Important Stuff.

toneart - 12-24-2011 at 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto
Skeet, take your preaching of MORALS, etc., and stick it where the sun don't shine.

NO! We don't need reminding of an infantile interpretation of "Morals". :barf:

We are all adults here. If one is immoral, they bear that responsibility to society and eventually pay the consequences. We don't need no Texas preachin'. :no:

mtgoat666 - 12-24-2011 at 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Maybe ex-hippies living on welfair have time to hike for days and days? Not all of us have such disrespect for society to not work as much as we can.

dk: people from all walks of life are go on multi-day hikes in wilderness areas: poor people, rich people, employed, unemployed, retired, liberal, conservative, atheist, religious, etc...

last year i took 6 weeks vacation. being disrespectful never felt so good!

merry xmas to all! even to fulano and DK

DianaT - 12-24-2011 at 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

barry,
so you say the creation of wilderness benefits few? i say the natural resource extraction usually benefits few. and the destructive ORV use benefits few. you can't make decisions about preservation on basis of who uses it most. preservation of wilderness benefits us all, benefits the planet, benefits the other critters on the planet.

the fact is: once land, flora and fauna are destroyed they cannot be returned to natural state. the few users locked out by wilderness designation can go somewhere else to accomplish same activities. ecosystems cannot relocate their activities.

people are passionate about use of public lands. having seen so much land destroyed in my lifetime, i can NEVER fault people trying to save the last few scraps of public land before destruction through extraction of over use or development. the world has a limited and finite amount of wilderness left, i am all for saving ALL of it. if we slowly chip away at wilderness, some day there will be none left.

Very well said----thank you. :yes:

"wait till they find a market for sand"

KaceyJ - 12-24-2011 at 11:44 AM

They already did Pompano,

The scarcity and price of sand for aggregates went up so high in San Diego county that they were importing it from Baja

&Re: the conches

I remember after Julieta ,if you knew where to look there were 100's on some beaches . Not really that many but a few survive. I had two crates of them in short order.

Other than that, regarding this thread,

I'm with capkw,

"you Kid's can b-tch...Me,,,Im going FISHING !!!! "

that is as soon as the dang wind dies down.

Other than that ,

Happy Christmas / Hanukkah evryone

Kc

David K - 12-24-2011 at 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Maybe ex-hippies living on welfair have time to hike for days and days? Not all of us have such disrespect for society to not work as much as we can.

Merry CHRISTmas to you! :yes:

mcfez - 12-24-2011 at 11:55 AM

I swear this looks and feels like Off Topics :yes:

Bajatripper - 12-24-2011 at 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Good morning Steve!

Of ALL the cool replies I posted in this thread, you grabbed a small part of one I wrote 5 days ago to ask me about? Seriously?

Let's quote my full reply instead of just a portion of it... you know as a refresher after 5 days:

>>> "Another point is one that the Sierra Club and other leftist organizations never mention, and that is that we humans are a natural part of this planet just as much as the sardines and turtles.

Yes, we can eat until a species is reduced to a point that we eat something else... but, Nature is so far stronger than man ever gives it credit for and the animal will return if it is meant to be.

One thing for certain is change... If you live long enough, things are going to be changing before your eyes... Sardines will disappear... and perhaps come back again more than before... The weather will seem warmer for a few years, then we will have the coldest years...

We have changed our habits and have performed differently than the past as far as limiting our take of certain species, eco-management if it proves to benefit our ability to take from the sea on a regular basis. The co-ops of Bahia Asuncion, Abreojos, etc. seem to have it down as a science. Great!

The main point here is to have some faith in Planet Earth, not blame humans for everything, and just do the best you can at living your life." <<<

Is it still "up in the air" now, with the rest of the post included?

My point (if still not clear) is that Nature (God, Mother Earth, or ???) is the normal and natural operation going on here on earth. Mankind can no more change what Nature intends on the earth than Al Gore can admit he has lied to you about Global Warming... :lol:

Have a great day and a Merry Christmas!!!

And a Very Merry Christmas to you, too, David.

About your reply, what I don't see is any references to a literature list on what your opinion is based on. It is very difficult for a person without studies to really know how interconnected the planet is and to begin to comprehend some of the effects of that interconnectivity. In your argument, there was no connection between the almost-extinction of the whale and the overharvesting of those creatures. They just came back because nature so mandated it. No way, David! Nature most definitely needs our assistance.

What differentiates the arguments between the two perspetives on the environment I see taking place on threads such as this is that the Left tends to be based in science, while the opinions such as yours--the Right--tend to be based on personal observations that really have no bearing on the health of the planet over the long term. Hence, science is a dirty, four-letter word to your side--ivory tower elitists and all that rubish.

For me, a good dose of science makes things quite clear: we are ruining our planet, but we still have the opportunity to correct things. But if we continue to ignore all the warning signs (like you seem intent on doing), the day will come when it will be too late. And then, my friend, we shall see just how much of a part of nature man really is. I think it was comedian George Carlin who use to say that man is but a flea on the world's back. The world doesn't need us to survive, but we definitely need the world, wouldn't you say? Why do we insist trashing our home?

So, if you think Al Gore is such a loser, you must hold the opinions on global warming of Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachman et. al. in high esteem. I rest my case.

wessongroup - 12-24-2011 at 12:56 PM

Hey goat, that's one way to say it... here's another

toneart - 12-24-2011 at 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajatripper

Quote:

Have a great day and a Merry Christmas!!!

This from the online publication Nation of Change:

"The politicization of science—or, as Michael Mann calls it, the scientization of politics—is a familiar reality for Americans concerned about climate change. Instead of focusing on how to address the problem, we've spent years debating whether there's scientific consensus that there is one (the answer is yes). That's the result of a dedicated campaign by corporate interests to spread doubt and discredit scientists.

Michael Mann has more experience with the process than most. Mann is a climatologist, director of the Earth System Science Center at Penn State University, and author of the books Dire Predictions: Understanding Global Warming and The Hockey Stick and the Climate Wars: Dispatches from the Front Lines. In this talk, he discusses how to approach climate science in a politicized world."

KaceyJ - 12-24-2011 at 06:31 PM

Since toneart brought it up I think this is good perspective.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BB0aFPXr4n4&feature=relat...

His comment about "arrogance " is worth pondering

vgabndo - 12-24-2011 at 07:20 PM

With all due respect...secular realists have a lot of ground to make-up. Those with whom we so generally disagree have had a long time to make their belief and understanding clear.

This isn't at all about rational argument. In the end it is all about winning the argument through killing and flaying and boiling, and bashing, etc. See: Christian History

"Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God."
— Martin Luther

"Unbelief is the greatest of sins."
— Thomas Aquinas

"REASON is the Devil's greatest hoar; by nature and manner of being she is a noxious hoar; she is a prostitute, the Devil's appointed hoar; hoar eaten by scab and leprosy who ought to be trodden under foot and destroyed, she and her wisdom ... Throw dung in her face to make her ugly. She is and she ought to be drowned in baptism... She would deserve, the wretch, to be banished to the filthiest place in the house, to the closets."
— Martin Luther, Erlangen Edition v. 16, pp. 142-148

"Kill them all. God will select those who should go to heaven and those who should go to hell."
— Abbot Arnold de Citeaux, 1205 (Fourth Crusade)

"Reason must be deluded, blinded, and destroyed. Faith must trample underfoot all reason, sense, and understanding, and whatever it sees must be put out of sight and ... know nothing but the word of God."
— Martin Luther

"There is another form of temptation, even more fraught with danger. This is the disease of curiosity. It is this which drives us to try and discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our understanding, which can avail us nothing and which man should not wish to learn."
— St. Augustine (354 - 430),

"We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."
— St. Ignatius Loyola, 1491 – 1556

"A person is to be punished with a just penalty, who ... utters blasphemy, or gravely harms public morals, or rails at or excites hatred of or contempt for religion or the Church."
— The Catholic Church's Canon Law 1369

"Kill them all, for God knows His own."
— Pope Innocent III, to his troops in the Albigensian Crusade of 1209

"I do further promise and declare, that I will, when opportunity presents, make and wage relentless war, secretly or openly, against all heretics, Protestants and Liberals, as I am directed to do and to extirpate and exterminate them from the face of the whole earth, and that I will spare neither sex, age nor condition and that I will hang, waste, boil, flay, strangle and bury alive these infamous heretics; rip up the stomachs and wombs of their women and crush their infants' heads against the wall, in order to annihilate forever their execrable race."
— Pope Paul III, 1576

In God We Trust, One Nation Under God, Merry CHRISTmas.

Back to the subject of ecology...what's the flippin' sense in killing a third of a billion CO2 eating, Oxygen producing, baby trees to stand them up with a star on top and watch their corpses desiccate in the corner until January for the love of Jesus?

People DO make a difference to the environment, and superstitiously wasting beneficial life forms is very un-evolved.

I get a feel for it living near to I-5 in the mountains. The number of 80,000 pound diesel wasting 18-wheelers headed south loaded with dead baby trees this month has, as usual, been staggering. And depressing.

Please buy live trees.

Or, there's always......night school? :lol:

Be happy you guys, and be careful. Mixing alcohol, virgin births and flying reindeer is a potent combination! :lol:

watizname - 12-24-2011 at 11:05 PM

Man is only a bit player. When the wheel of time clicks over another cog, we'll all be gone, and Mother Earth will renew herself. I think it has happened before.

:saint:

motoged - 12-24-2011 at 11:15 PM

I hope that family in Agua Verde celebrated Christmas together... :saint:

dec 25th

captkw - 12-25-2011 at 05:28 AM

MERRY cristmas all,,,this has been rather intertaining,,, but, ya know what,,,,,,,,,,,baja is still AWESOME !!!

vgabndo - 12-25-2011 at 01:05 PM

What a happy afternoon yesterday building a doll bed for my Naomi's newest baby. I can't wait to see her eyes.

We're so fortunate to have all our family near.

I hope the day brings the same joy to all of you.

remod 071 (Small).jpg - 33kB

Skeet/Loreto - 12-25-2011 at 01:25 PM

Beautifull Photo Vag.!!!

As I set here watching the Snowfall I think of all the Birds and other Animals trying to keep Warm.
I think of the many Joys that I have had in my Lifetime. There are many, from mu Cjildhood, growing up days on that little Farm in Sweetwater,going to Hi School in Amarillo. Going to War in Dorea, going to College in Fresno Calif.
I think about my discovery of the Sea of Cortez and the many Friends in Baja and all of the Wonderful Fish Experiences.

I think the good Lord for the Confidence he has given me to be a Successful Human Being, for the Love of my Children.

I wish each one of you who reads these words the best of Days to come and please live the life of Love and Kindness.

Skeet/Loreto

captkw - 12-25-2011 at 01:48 PM

merry christmas skeet

DENNIS - 12-25-2011 at 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
As I set here watching the Snowfall I think of all the Birds and other Animals trying to keep Warm.
I think of the many Joys that I have had in my Lifetime. There are many, from mu Cjildhood, growing up days on that little Farm in Sweetwater,going to Hi School in Amarillo. Going to War in Dorea, going to College in Fresno Calif.

Merry Christmas, Skeet. Here's hoping that one of these days, you'll find time to compile a dictionary of translations to some of your posts. They are becoming more....uh....enchanted all the time. Always a pleasure to read though.

OK....I'm off to my study with a stack of maps to find Dorea.

Quote:

I think about my discovery of the Sea of Cortez

I knew all the time it was you.

.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-25-2011 at 04:04 PM

Dennis I have doubts that I will change much!

It is still snowing good , just came in from feeding the Horses and getting ready to pour myself a drink of Wine in my New Redneck Wine Glass!! A little Gallo Red is good for the body.

Happy new year

DENNIS - 12-25-2011 at 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Dennis I have doubts that I will change much!

It is still snowing good , just came in from feeding the Horses and getting ready to pour myself a drink of Wine in my New Redneck Wine Glass!! A little Gallo Red is good for the body.

Happy new year

SALUD, Skeeter. Same for you and yours.

Please....don't ever change.

Roberto - 12-25-2011 at 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Roberto
Skeet, take your preaching of MORALS, etc., and stick it where the sun don't shine.

NO! We don't need reminding of an infantile interpretation of "Morals". :barf:

We are all adults here. If one is immoral, they bear that responsibility to society and eventually pay the consequences. We don't need no Texas preachin'. :no:

Oh my. Toneart and I agreeing on something. Aside from infantile, I agree 100%.

Roberto - 12-25-2011 at 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Maybe ex-hippies living on welfair have time to hike for days and days? Not all of us have such disrespect for society to not work as much as we can.

Goat, wrong target. He's talking about welfair. That's an event at the county fair. :lol:

Mengano - 12-25-2011 at 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
merry xmas to all! even to fulano and DK

Why, that was very Christian of you, goat. Now say three Hail Mary's and quit your evil ways.

DENNIS - 12-25-2011 at 07:51 PM

Doncha just love these family holidays?? Everyone's so gooey and nice. :lol:

redhilltown - 12-26-2011 at 01:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Saving if for WHO???

It is PUBLIC land... WE are the public! While there are a few people who break the rules (in all areas of life), there is no need to punish the rest of us tax payers from enjoing the land we pay for, with repect.

Driving a 4WD or ORV on a dirt path or dirt road does 'not ruin' anything... I mean the road is already there (we cannot make new dirt roads on public lands) for access to see and enjoy the area.

It is a great way to introduce the wilderness to everyone. Since tax payers have jobs, the use of a vehicle allows the experience in our limited off time. Maybe ex-hippies living on welfair have time to hike for days and days? Not all of us have such disrespect for society to not work as much as we can.

The desert is the most durable terrain on earth... a wind storm or flash flood or earthquake erases any trace of a vehicle being there. Closing down a sand dune to dune buggies because you don't like the tracks they leave is as insane as closing down Snow Summit because of the tracks skiers leave! I think the snow is prettier without the ski tracks on it... so we should ban snow boards and skis??? :lol:

First of all Happy Holidays to all. Left/Right, High/Low, Green/Blue........ But DK, you are just flat out WRONG that "desert is the most durable terrain on earth"...if anything, it is the most fragile. I can understand statements being made in the heat of the battle being skewed but you really need to re-think this one. Everything in the desert is walking a thin line between life, death, and survival...any disruption can be costly. And this is not to say you have some valid points that the land is public and should be used as such.

70 years later Patton's tracks are still evident in the California desert...had it been an alpine forest nothing would be seen...thousands of Mayan sites are just gone (buried) because of the jungle taking them back. Chaco Canyon? Not so much...

wessongroup - 12-26-2011 at 07:51 AM

"We have become great because of the lavish use of our resources. But the time has come to inquire seriously what will happen when our forests are gone, when the coal, the iron, the oil, and the gas are exhausted, when the soils have still further impoverished and washed into the streams, polluting the rivers, denuding the fields and obstructing navigation."

"I recognize the right and duty of this generation to develop and use the natural resources of our land; but I do not recognize the right to waste them, or to rob, by wasteful use, the generations that come after us."

"Of all the questions which can come before this nation, short of the actual preservation of its existence in a great war, there is none which compares in importance with the great central task of leaving this land even a better land for our descendants than it is for us."

"Spring would not be spring without bird songs, any more than it would be spring without buds and flowers, and I only wish that besides protecting the songsters, the birds of the grove, the orchard, the garden and the meadow, we could also protect the birds of the sea-shore and of the wilderness."

Theodore Roosevelt, who was something of a conservative, while at the same time having rather strong "thoughts" about "Public Lands" and their use...

wilderone - 12-26-2011 at 09:57 AM

"... the land is public and should be used as such."
Used? And then what?

Used - AND TAKEN CARE OF for the next generation, and the generation after that. THIS generation, and our parents', were the WORST stewards of natural resources, public and wilderness lands, including the marine wilderness and its species. Oh so short sighted, selfish and ignorant to believe what you do has no impact. Do you know that even your dog peeing next to a creature hole inhibits that creature to come out and feed - it thinks there is a predator lurking - and dies. Look around, learn and have respect. It is up to YOU, individually and altruistically, to do no harm. And maybe even some action to improve, rebuild, regenerate, clean up.

castaway$ - 12-26-2011 at 11:09 AM

Without population control you can't preserve anything. The world population is exploding and the demand on the environment and resources WILL increase, pollution will increase and species will perish.
We are the "fruit fly's in the jar" experiment, eventually we will contaminate the entire planet and exhaust all of the resources, isn't that why we are exploring space so we can find another planet to infect.
Humans are the most unpredictable and potentially destructive force on this planet, we all have our own agendas and and push for our rights to enforce our opinions and desires.
I have been fortunate to live in an era where we could still enjoy nature and the bounty found there whether it is gathering food, enjoying the awe of nature or the solitude that can be found but that is vanishing and I fear for my grandkids and there children, will it all be gone? or just available in a cyberspace cloud of pictures and video.
No I don't have any answers but I do beleive it will have to start with population control and how do you do that?

Pompano - 12-26-2011 at 11:32 AM

castaway, those are just facts ...and so... useless in any discussion today. Lo siento, amigo...you're pee-ing into the wind.

castaway$ - 12-26-2011 at 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pompano
castaway, those are just facts ...and so... useless in any discussion today. Lo siento, amigo...you're pee-ing into the wind.

Yes they are just facts, and problems with no solutions, just as the rest are opinions. Guess i'm just another Ostrich.

castaway$ - 12-26-2011 at 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pompano
castaway, those are just facts ...and so... useless in any discussion today. Lo siento, amigo...you're pee-ing into the wind.

Yes they are just facts, and problems with no solutions, just as the rest are opinions. Guess i'm just another Ostrich.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-26-2011 at 01:37 PM

Gentlmen and Scholars, and you too DENNIS!

After spending so many years on the Sea of Cortez I have stated facts about "What I have seen and experienced while Fishing and diving".

I have watched and recorded many of the movements of Yellowtail, Dorado, Cabrillo Sardines, Sharks and yes Whales.
In my Humble Opinion I do not think that the Fish , if they go, will not return ,/ The poster that presented the Photo of the Million of Sardines being taken just Proves my Point that "The Fish are still There!! So. comeon on down you Fisherman and have an experience of a Lifetime.

That said I must say that some of the Culture changes in the States has caused me Concern. That change includes the "Massaging of the Facts to prove a Massagers Point." And I must admit that I am offended and dissapointed by these Actions by the Younger Generation.
I would hope that any of you who doubts go down and Investigate and understand what you find then tell the Truth. You will be the Better Person for doing so!

Have a Happy New Year

Skeet/Loreto

Roberto - 12-26-2011 at 01:43 PM

Not sure about population control in the real world. Meaning enforcing numbers of children.

But, it's clear that from the perspective of environment preservation, I agree with you. It's a losing (and one I have great trouble with) battle to control access to the environment. Why does the government have the right to do that? The government is supposed to be made up of representatives, not owners of what belongs to the people.

In the same way, calling this and the previous generation the worst stewards of the environment misses the fact that there are so many more of us. And I can tell you, in comparison to much of the rest of the world, the US does a sterling job. People in Europe come here and marvel at our Parks. For good reason. There is not real wilderness left over there. At least south of Denmark.

As far as fishing goes (the original topic), we cannot control folks like pangueros who fish destructively for sustenance. Maybe by educating them to do something different, but that is questionable. Sportfishermen have no excuse. Taking more than you can consume is irresponsible and wrong. In my opinion. Even catch and release is questionable in my mind. Many times I have caught a fish that could not be released and expected to survive.

DENNIS - 12-26-2011 at 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skeet/Loreto
Gentlmen and Scholars, and you too DENNIS!

My most humble thank yous.

Cisco - 12-26-2011 at 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
"... the land is public and should be used as such."
Used? And then what?

Used - AND TAKEN CARE OF for the next generation, and the generation after that. THIS generation, and our parents', were the WORST stewards of natural resources, public and wilderness lands, including the marine wilderness and its species. Oh so short sighted, selfish and ignorant to believe what you do has no impact. Do you know that even your dog peeing next to a creature hole inhibits that creature to come out and feed - it thinks there is a predator lurking - and dies. Look around, learn and have respect. It is up to YOU, individually and altruistically, to do no harm. And maybe even some action to improve, rebuild, regenerate, clean up.

" including the marine wilderness and its species."

Glad you included the Sea's in your informative post.

OLD information but relevant to the whole nature of things is that the U.S. conducted underwater nuclear tests (13.5 kilo-ton) off the Baja west coast.

Although the impact on the fish not in the immediate vicinity may not have been too great I was really concerned about the mammalian population. What this could have done to the ultra-sensitive whales particularly.

And, although we seem to have plenty of sea lions around, the San Diego sportfishing business, H & M and Pt. Loma, would sell tickets after deer season to frustrated deer hunters to go shoot-up the seals on the weather side of North Coronado Island and watch them drop, dead or injured, into the surf.

Not a lot of sport fish around that time of year and it paid the bills, kept the boats running.

sea lions

captkw - 12-26-2011 at 05:27 PM

hola,, sea lions are a major problem along the pacific coast and the are fed/regulated,,If you can call it that......mmmm ,,,nope its not regulated at all unless you should shoot one,,then your ass is in doodoo,,around the monterey bay its a crisis,,but nothing is being done,,they sink,boat's dock's and stink and are noisy,,ha,ha 2 year's ago a bunch of them crawed up on a NOAA boat and sumerged it deep enough the power heads took on water (outboard's 300hp) but that was kept queit !!and you wonder if the feds'are trying to help the fish,,,not in my book !!!!K&T :fire:

mtgoat666 - 12-26-2011 at 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by captkw
hola,, sea lions are a major problem along the pacific coast and the are fed/regulated,,If you can call it that......mmmm ,,,nope its not regulated at all unless you should shoot one,,then your burro is in doodoo,,around the monterey bay its a crisis,,but nothing is being done,,they sink,boat's dock's and stink and are noisy,,ha,ha 2 year's ago a bunch of them crawed up on a NOAA boat and sumerged it deep enough the power heads took on water (outboard's 300hp) but that was kept queit !!and you wonder if the feds'are trying to help the fish,,,not in my book !!!!K&T :fire:

the sea lions are more deserving of the fish than you! it's their ocean. if you don't want sea lions pulling out onto your boat, then don't leave your boat in their back yard! :lol:

sea lions

captkw - 12-26-2011 at 05:51 PM

hola, the only predator that they face ,is great whites and orca's when they are juvenile's,,,during the 60's the great whites wear hunted rather freicly,,,so today we have a very bad problem of them be ovepopulated...if,you ,cant get a grasp on that,I will try and make it more simple for you,,there is too many furbag's (sea lion's) and if your want argue with that,,nock,, yourself out .... :cool:

K&T

Pescador - 12-26-2011 at 07:20 PM

I find this discussion and the one previously where the libs and conservatives grouped up on their side of the line and took potshots at each other in a way that reminds me of the Hatfields and McCoys. This is also a small example of what goes on in the battle for the mind and spirit of the whole country at this point. Because civility is in such short supply, we really see the raw emotion of the split and no-one has even tried to bring it back together. I am a student of history and found the same behaviors that split and divided people with the very same type of issues in our relatively short history as a nation but the one issue that could always be counted on was a civility of the participants where even over issues of slavery, which cruelly divided our country into a real civil war with bullets and death, there was a stronger attempt to understand the other side and at least have some small point of agreement. Without that the country would have stayed divided after the Civil War and would have never come back together again.
I am not totally sure that I have the same hope at this point. I get the chance to read 8 pages of poisoned thinking that has no understanding or tolerance of a differing idealogy. Has the split gotten so far apart that there is no common ground of understanding. Surely those who spout the diatribe of Global Warming have some idea that there are questions that need to be asked and that there have been misrepresentations that only made the whole science questionable.

The same thing has happened here with people spouting that the fish are all dead and that the sky is falling while others report that things are almost the same as always. None of that seems to hit the mark for those of us who spend 250 - 300 days a year on the water. But those of us who have some experience and observation know that we also have a problem that gets worse every year and are actively looking for any solutions that make sense and are realistic and ring true.

But as long as we never are able to come together in a spirit of civility and cooperation the outcome is doomed and will go nowhere anyway. Perhaps that is the real objective afterall.

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