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shari - 6-8-2012 at 11:00 AM

I had sort of toned out this thread but checked in when I saw a few more pages on it...Tony...thank you for your story and keep up the fight amigo. Look into macrobiotics...it saved a couple friends of mine...brown rice saves! That does sound rather agnostic doesnt it? We are all pulling for you brother.

Eli - 6-8-2012 at 05:52 PM

I would never have fallen into this thread had I not seen Shari's name as the last poster, and well, what ever Shari has to say, is always of interest to me.
I never would have guessed the turn this thread has taken. Although not the best of news, I am glad I opened it and read from the bottom not the top.

I too wish to express my greatest respect and most certainly do wish You well Tony. I have always enjoyed your perspective. None of us know for sure how nor when, but in the end, we all have in common the knowledge that our days are numbered. I hope how ever many you are allotted will be lived as much as possible with the joy of every day stuff that sometimes we forget to embrace until we get the kind of wake up call you have received.
When I was 15 and more than a little incorrigible, I too, was locked away (for 6 months) in a Christan Childrens home "for my own good". It was not as radical as your experience, the worse I had to deal with was a razor strap across the but and many days of isolation until I figured the only way out was to be "saved"; I got really good at sucking up and praising Jesus and convinced them their work was done and got the heck out of there and never looked back. So, I do have an empathy for your perception of Evangelism.
Best of Luck to you in the path you have chosen to deal with this cancer.

Ken Bondy - 6-8-2012 at 06:58 PM

Tony I was moved by the eloquence and honesty of your post. You are a favorite of mine here and I know with your attitude and resolve you can beat this thing. Praying to imaginary beings is, of course, a waste of time, but I will hold good thoughts for you!!

DENNIS - 6-8-2012 at 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Praying to imaginary beings is, of course, a waste of time,

That would be a silly thing to do, Ken, but if it's a God you are refering to, I believe that's a state of mind.
We all have our personal level and depth of need for company.
I respect yours. :light:

Ken Bondy - 6-8-2012 at 07:27 PM

DENNIS I was referring to all the imaginary beings humans have invented and prayed to over millennia, zeus, apollo, god, allah, the flying spaghetti monster, etc.

[Edited on 6-9-2012 by Ken Bondy]

Iflyfish - 6-8-2012 at 09:18 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZAXGb5akQ0

Ihumblyflyfish

bajadogs - 6-8-2012 at 09:28 PM

WOW! My favorite Nomads, the one's who keep me reading and participating on this forum, share similar non-beliefs with me.

Toneart,
Tears dropped this morning after reading your post and the posts around it. You are in my thoughts.

¡SALUD!

Ps. Skeet, sorry your exit thread was hijacked, good people showed up.

[Edited on 6-9-2012 by bajadogs]

Iflyfish - 6-8-2012 at 09:45 PM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYTTtHTodSM&feature=relat...

Seeyouatthecrossingcallmeiflyfish

Ateo - 6-8-2012 at 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
DENNIS I was referring to all the imaginary beings humans have invented and prayed to over millennia, zeus, apollo, god, allah, the flying spaghetti monster, etc.

[Edited on 6-9-2012 by Ken Bondy]

Well said Ken! You left out Thor.

Ken Bondy - 6-8-2012 at 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ateo

Quote:

Well said Ken! You left out Thor.

Damn!! And Thor was one of my favorites!

Gracias Amigos y Amigas!

toneart - 6-8-2012 at 10:43 PM

My gallows humor and twisted mind carries me through this. Here is a quote by Woody Allen:

"I don't want to be immortal because of my work. I want to be immortal for not dying!!!" :wow:

mcfez - 6-8-2012 at 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
My gallows humor and twisted mind carries me through this. Here is a quote by Woody Allen:

"I don't want to be immortal because of my work. I want to be immortal for not dying!!!" :wow:

Iflyfish - 6-9-2012 at 07:24 AM

Quote:

I'd say "Amen" except for the connotation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvum6eHxLZI

Iflyfish

mulegemichael - 6-9-2012 at 07:44 AM

hey antonio!....roz and i are thinking of you; stop by when you're in town whether it be here in mulege or up in sequim....we've got a great summer concert series going on at our farm and you're always welcome to sit in.

Ken Bondy - 6-9-2012 at 08:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ridge

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy...Praying to imaginary beings is, of course, a waste of time...

We don't know that.

Got a deal for you ridge. You pray for me, I'll think for you.

wessongroup - 6-9-2012 at 08:50 AM

"Ps. Skeet, sorry your exit thread was hijacked, good people showed up."

Don't think Skitter minds one bit ...

vandenberg - 6-9-2012 at 08:52 AM

Quote:

Why not put God in this line-up? They're all imaginary beings made up by the human mind, whether it be the man with the flowing beard or the man whom rains down fire and thunder upon us. Made up by humans who couldn't explain a lot of world's happenings. Now, with humanity far better educated, those made-up creatures are slowly being pushed into the background. Most religions are in a serious decline, except maybe Islam, which makes headway amongst the poorer of nations.

Ken Bondy - 6-9-2012 at 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg

Quote:

vandenberg he/she is in the lineup. I just don't capitalize him/her

[Edited on 6-9-2012 by Ken Bondy]

Mexitron - 6-9-2012 at 09:51 AM

Thor, Apollo, Zeus, Hera, et al....all archetypal aspects of the one Mystery...which is also us...too. Calling them "imaginary" might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Cypress - 6-9-2012 at 10:09 AM

Who knows? As long as someone's not trying to convince or force me to accept their belief system, they can worship horny toads as far as I care. My guess is as good as anyones. If you look at all the major religions in a totally objective manner they all have some weird aspects. :biggrin:

mtgoat666 - 6-9-2012 at 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron
Thor, Apollo, Zeus, Hera, et al....all archetypal aspects of the one Mystery...which is also us...too. Calling them "imaginary" might be throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

ancient greeks had the best gods. christianity and islam have the boring gods. how dull to believe in the christian and islam gods. so many god constructs over time, so many interesting ones to choose from. my favorite:

Ken Bondy - 6-9-2012 at 10:28 AM

Couldn't agree more goat!! People should go back to worshipping the much more interesting gods invented by the Greeks. Plus that would ease the backlog on the god of abraham, who has become so bogged down with influencing the results of sports events and TV reality shows that he/she can't pay proper attention to the important problems facing society like hunger, genocide, racism, child rape by priests, stuff like that. Let's hear it for Zeus!!!

willardguy - 6-9-2012 at 10:34 AM

i'll go with the horny toad. only a true god can squirt blood from his eyes!

Cypress - 6-9-2012 at 10:39 AM

willardguy, Nice horny toad picture! :yes:

Skipjack Joe - 6-9-2012 at 11:18 AM

What? Isn't there anyone out there willing to speak up for your faith?

Barry A. - 6-9-2012 at 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
What? Isn't there anyone out there willing to speak up for your faith?

"Faith" is a very personal thing. Why air it in public?

Barry

toneart - 6-9-2012 at 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Who knows? As long as someone's not trying to convince or force me to accept their belief system, they can worship horny toads as far as I care. My guess is as good as anyones. If you look at all the major religions in a totally objective manner they all have some weird aspects. :biggrin:

Yep! That is the point! Thanks, Cypress.
I can neither confirm nor deny. Just don't (anyone) lay your dogma on me. When I am curious and seeking, don't call me. I'll call you, or will communicate directly with my muses. And keep it out of politics and government. And it is especially criminal to lay it on children. :fire:

Skipjack Joe - 6-9-2012 at 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
What? Isn't there anyone out there willing to speak up for your faith?

"Faith" is a very personal thing. Why air it in public?

Barry

Exactly. And because it's a personal thing it shouldn't be dissed publicly.

My father in law told me of a beautiful church interior he was photographing. He'd wind his way among worshippers snapping pictures of what he thought were exceptional objects. Eventually someone came up to him:

"What are you doing? To you these are paintings but to us these are objects of worship."

It's been many years now since he told me. Can't remember if it was paintings, carvings, or statues. I believe this was in the Holy Land.

[Edited on 6-9-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

KurtG - 6-9-2012 at 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
What? Isn't there anyone out there willing to speak up for your faith?

"Faith" is a very personal thing. Why air it in public?

Barry

Exactly. And because it's a personal thing it shouldn't be dissed publicly.

When a large religous institution turns out to be an international haven for pedophiles it deserves all the public "dissing" it gets.

Skipjack Joe - 6-9-2012 at 11:41 AM

As said earlier: "don't throw the baby out with the water".

The Catholic Church is not about pedophilism. Neither is Penn State, for that matter.

Cypress - 6-9-2012 at 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
The Catholic Church is not about pedophilism. Neither is Penn State, for that matter.

Agree! There're "bad eggs" in every organization.

DENNIS - 6-9-2012 at 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
What? Isn't there anyone out there willing to speak up for your faith?

"Faith" is a very personal thing. Why air it in public?

Barry

I hope "personal" doesn't mean "secret." That would make it creepy.

DENNIS - 6-9-2012 at 11:54 AM

The fundamentilista Muslems are gonna explode this thread any minute now. Time to take refuge at Sharky's.

KurtG - 6-9-2012 at 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
As said earlier: "don't throw the baby out with the water".

The Catholic Church is not about pedophilism. Neither is Penn State, for that matter.

And yet they both tolerated it. I have zero tolerence for anyone or any organization that abuses children or tolerates such abuse. Especially those who then attempt to cover it up or who do nothing about it.

DENNIS - 6-9-2012 at 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KurtG
And yet they both tolerated it.

Tolerance was given by people.....not the church. It's the people who are guilty....not the institutions.
Purge the sinners for their sins. Don't burn down the house in which they live and hide.

Pompano - 6-9-2012 at 12:10 PM

I have no dog in this fight, but from the character of the last few posts on this thread...it sure seems like chastising Christians 'back in the day'...is getting popular again.

Quiz:
How many Nomads can fit into the Coliseum?

I might be religious....why?... for sure the Devil made me do it.

DENNIS - 6-9-2012 at 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pompano

Penis Idolatry. I never knew what historically [and for some, currently] motivated the Italians .
Too bad Roberto has been bannished...cast out....discarded and sent away. We could get his deep insight into this issue.

.

KurtG - 6-9-2012 at 12:28 PM

Roger,
I believe people have the right to worship whatever gods they choose. My point is that for an authority figure of any sort, but especially one entrusted with the moral guidance of the young, to mistreat or abuse those entrusted to them is indefensible.
Kurt

Quote:

Originally posted by Pompano
I have no dog in this fight, but from the character of the last few posts on this thread...it sure seems like chastising Christians 'back in the day'...is getting popular again.

Quiz:
How many Nomads can fit into the Coliseum?

I might be religious....why?... for sure the Devil made me do it.

Pompano - 6-9-2012 at 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
[
Penis Idolatry. I never knew what historically [and for some, currently] motivated the Italians .
Too bad Roberto has been bannished...cast out....discarded and sent away. We could get his deep insight into this issue.

Money, Dennis...state and religion were intertwined in Rome. Rome was very religiously tolerant (you could worship whoever you wanted) so long as you paid at least minor tribute to the 'gods of the state.'

Christians refused to do such (because God said you can only worship one god).

Christianity challenged a man's role as supreme head of the family through their condemnation of infanticide.

Christianity also taught women that they were in charge of their own souls and that they could escape miserable marriages by pledging their bodies to God.

Christanity was radically liberal in the eyes of the Romans...oddly ironic concept for our pc culture today, huh?

Ken Bondy - 6-9-2012 at 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
What? Isn't there anyone out there willing to speak up for your faith?

"Faith" is a very personal thing. Why air it in public?

Barry

Barry "faith" is belief without evidence. Criticism of "faith" must be aired in public. Religion is the most dangerous thing in the world today, at the heart of virtually every major atrocity, genocide, cruelty and conflict from the Inquisition to 9/11. Now that nuclear weapons are available to the truly religious, the future of civilization is at stake.

Religion should be subjected to the same open, public criticisms imposed upon all other areas of human existence, like science, politics, economics, and law. The historical prohibition of criticizing religion must end.

I hear religious people say that religion is necessary for morality. However I have never noticed any relationship between religion and morality. Certainly there is a relationship between religion and immorality. If there is any morality in religion, it is brought there by people. The reverse is not true. One need look no further than the institutionalized child rape of the Catholic church to realize that there is no inherent morality in religion. The list of church leaders exposed as hypocrites and criminals goes on and on. Prisons are full of not only religious people, but religious leaders.

So I am appalled when people support religious institutions by saying something like "don't throw out the baby with the bath water". If religion is "the baby" it NEEDS to go with the bath water. Good people do good things in spite of religion, not because of it. Bad people do bad things with or without religion. The only established relationship between behavior and religion is that religion is normally required to make good people do bad things.

mtgoat666 - 6-9-2012 at 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
What? Isn't there anyone out there willing to speak up for your faith?

"Faith" is a very personal thing. Why air it in public?

Barry

sometimes i think the chinese and russians had it right -- religion should be stomped down and extinguished. every religion eventually strays and commits atrocities in name of god and church,... name me any religion or church that has not!

Pompano - 6-9-2012 at 01:21 PM

It all began when man made God in his image...

Chapter and verse in Bible:

L E V I T Y 1:01

And now to be serious:

Unfortunately most people don't understand the essential meaning of religion and fight for names, positions, argue about things that were not meant to be argued about.

[Edited on 6-9-2012 by Pompano]

Skipjack Joe - 6-9-2012 at 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
...religion is normally required to make good people do bad things.

Come on now. Isn't that stretching things a bit.

I just had a funny thought, Ken. You are a crusader in your own way. Only in the opposite direction.

I'll have to think about the statement that religion and science should be discussed in a similar manner. In a book, I agree. But the fact that one is holy and worshipped and the other is a set of observations and conclusions makes me feel that in a forum you are offending people in the first case and merely disagreeing with them in the other case. Whether anything should be elevated to that realm is another issue. But it is what it is. Personally, if I disagree with someone on religious matters I never let them know it. I would never compare someone's god to a lizard by the nature of what it means to them.

SFandH - 6-9-2012 at 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
sometimes i think the chinese and russians had it right -- religion should be stomped down and extinguished. every religion eventually strays and commits atrocities in name of god and church,... name me any religion or church that has not!

Buddhism, maybe? One could consider self-immolation atrocious behavior but it's on oneself. I have always liked the concept of Karma. I don't know of any violence committed by Buddhists on others in the name of their supernatural beliefs.

The Golden Rule is all that's needed and every religion has its version. It's frequently ignored.

[Edited on 6-9-2012 by SFandH]

Skipjack Joe - 6-9-2012 at 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

sometimes i think the chinese and russians had it right -- religion should be stomped down and extinguished. every religion eventually strays and commits atrocities in name of god and church,... name me any religion or church that has not!

Name me any country that has not. Tibet?

Cruelty has little to do with religion. Yes religion can be used as a fuel to start it. But in the end it's man being man. My belief is that the roots are far back in the past.

Pompano - 6-9-2012 at 01:44 PM

Hoo Boy...Hey, Skeet! You old rabble-rouser, you.

See what happens when you leave the barn door open?

p.s. I haven't argued religion since my minister took away the confirmation wine. Hey, that means politics is next! November is coming very soon... very soon indeed.

[Edited on 6-9-2012 by Pompano]

Cypress - 6-9-2012 at 01:48 PM

Wouldn't knock religion too much. Quite a few people have made a very good living off of religion. And quite a few people are making a very good living off of religion as I type this. In fact, it's a big business.

DENNIS - 6-9-2012 at 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cypress
Quite a few people have made a very good living off of religion.

Yeah?? Well...not this guy. He did everything for the love of Jeeeezus:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE-dXg5fChI

.

Mexitron - 6-9-2012 at 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
What? Isn't there anyone out there willing to speak up for your faith?

"Faith" is a very personal thing. Why air it in public?

Barry

With all due respect---where did I mention "religion"? I was referring more to Carl Jung's insights (a scientist/psychiatrist/philosopher if you haven't heard of him).

Ken Bondy - 6-9-2012 at 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
...religion is normally required to make good people do bad things.

Glad you jumped into the fray swinging, amigo

<<Come on now. Isn't that stretching things a bit.>>
I don't think so Igor. All generalities, including the one you are addressing, are false, but this one is as close to true as generalities get. Voltaire said, "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."

<<Personally, if I disagree with someone on religious matters I never let them know it.>>
That's the problem, Igor. Only until religion can be and is openly and publicly criticized will its absurdities and dangers be exposed.

In another post you said, "Yes religion can be used as a fuel to start it. But in the end it's man being man." The 19 September 11 hijackers were well educated and middle class young people. Osama bin Laden was well educated and wealthy. All of them did bad things. So Igor are you saying that they were NOT primarily influenced by their religion?

Ken Bondy - 6-9-2012 at 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron
With all due respect---where did I mention "religion"? I was referring more to Carl Jung's insights (a scientist/psychiatrist/philosopher if you haven't heard of him).

I'm confused Mexitron. I was responding to Barry, not you. But I have actually heard of Carl Jung

[Edited on 6-9-2012 by Ken Bondy]

Cisco - 6-9-2012 at 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
...religion is normally required to make good people do bad things.

Glad you jumped into the fray swinging, amigo

All the bombs we kept dropping on them prior to 9/11, even after they asked us to please stop might have influenced their decisions also.

Ken Bondy - 6-9-2012 at 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CiscoAll the bombs we kept dropping on them prior to 9/11, even after they asked us to please stop might have influenced their decisions also.

We didn't drop any bombs on Saudi Arabia Cisco. All the people I mentioned were Saudis. That further supports the fact that they were primarily influenced by their religion.

DENNIS - 6-9-2012 at 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ridge
and the church bosses had the balls to put him through counseling for 2 weeks and then pronounce him cured of tHe gAY

That's hysterical. I guess they think that getting gay is like catching a cold. :lol:

uhhhh....'scuse me. I have to go turn up the heat.

:lol:

Skipjack Joe - 6-9-2012 at 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
...religion is normally required to make good people do bad things.

Glad you jumped into the fray swinging, amigo

Well, first of all I didn't think I came out swinging. At least that was not my intent. But I do enjoy bantering with you.

I'll have to think about the religious motivation behind 9/11. You see, everyone looks at one thing and interprets it in his own way. And we are reading mainly the intepretation of our own people. But I think they perceived a threat to their own culture from our culture which was overwhelming it. After all there is a whole world out there that is non muslim and yet they see us as the threat and chose to ignore the others.

As far as distinguishing a culture from a religion - I'll grant you that they are pretty closely interwoven in some nations.

Here's a scene from one of my favorite movies, Elmer Gantry. It too points out the limitations of religion, although it's a bit kinder to believers.

Skipjack Joe - 6-9-2012 at 03:50 PM

By the way, it's interesting to note that during my youth the cruelty on the russian people by the stalinist regime was attributed to a godless state. Now, we're getting the opposite message - religion is behind such acts.

The holocaust had nothing to do with religion. Although every german soldier had "God is with us" inscribed on his belt buckle.

The civil war was interesting in that it was essentially a moral war to free the slaves. Most abolitionists were deeply religious people. I guess the church played a positive role in that role if we are to believe that religion is responsible for most wars.

Ken Bondy - 6-9-2012 at 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
The holocaust had nothing to do with religion. Although every german soldier had "God is with us" inscribed on his belt buckle.

The civil war was interesting in that it was essentially a moral war to free the slaves. Most abolitionists were deeply religious people. I guess the church played a positive role in that role if we are to believe that religion is responsible for most wars.

Actually the holocaust had a lot to do with religion. From the horse's mouth:

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

I agree that many abolitionists were religious people. However since the bible so clearly advocates slavery (where we can buy them Leviticus 25:44, how badly we can beat them Exodus 21:20 and 26) slaveowners also relied heavily on scripture to justify their position. The abolitionists, as so many people do, just cherrypicked the bible and ignored the evil repulsive parts.

Mexitron - 6-9-2012 at 05:19 PM

Woops, sorry Ken...though I think I did start with the bathwater analogy. :coolup:

vgabndo - 6-9-2012 at 05:44 PM

When seen as a form of delusion, the persistent belief in something for which overwhelming evidence to the contrary exists, religious indoctrination is a difficult thing to maintain in the 21st. century. There is so much good science so easily available that a believer with the heretical inclination to know what is really going on can learn in private. This has to cause great conflict. The best a dying belief system can do is "put a spin" on their old story and try to make it fit the inconvenient truth in order to keep the "flock" under control.

Here's one of my heros on the subject: Dan Dennett

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3GNTrAMxfQ&feature=relat...

Ken Bondy - 6-9-2012 at 05:51 PM

Well said vgabndo. Religion resides today in the ever-shrinking part of human experience that has not yet been explained by science.

Ken Bondy - 6-9-2012 at 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron
Woops, sorry Ken...though I think I did start with the bathwater analogy. :coolup:

No problema Mexitron!! So that "bathwater" thing was your fault???? Shame!!!

Iflyfish - 6-9-2012 at 06:03 PM

This has evolved into a very interesting discussion indeed. I appreciate the civility of the dialogue, one, like race, that is difficult to have. Feelings run deep on the subject so it is rare to experience civil dialogue about it, I love the injection of humor into the discourse.

As a 35 plus years practicing Psychotherapy, and one who has made a formal study of Philosophy, Theology and Comparative Religions I have drawn some conclusions I would like to share.

1. It is nearly impossible to separate ones Psychology from ones Religion. I suspect that we choose a religion, to the extent that we choose and are not conditioned, on the basis of our Psychology. If our parents were religious and we were exposed to it then it is an issue to be addressed in our Psychology. Some of us inherit very heavy bags of rocks, some not so much.

2. Religion can be have both positive and negative influence upon people and nations. Religion can provide a common moral code, which can facilitate the rule of law. Since the metaphors of religion are so general it can also support unspeakable human behavior and atrocities. Religion can be the last bastion of a scoundrel or provide hope and a sense of being loved for a severely abused person, much as the ownership of a cat or dog can provide a sense of unconditional love. I don't mean to trivialize religion by the comparison but use it to point to a common experience of unconditional love, one of the great balms that religion can provide.

3. Religion can and has had a powerful influence on culture and the common beliefs and values of a society. It can support passivity as Roman Catholicism has in Latin America, the mass being in Latin and unintelligible to the common man in the pew who is overwhelmed with the size and glory of the edifices. For many in Mexico the Roman Catholic Church provided native people with a place to project their old religions and maintain their historical practices, there are snakes (Quetzalcoatl) for example to be found in the architecture of Cathedrals in Mexico, I have seen them along with other Pr-Colombian natavist iconography.

4. Religion is universal, found in all cultures so must fulfill a deep need for human beings. I suspect as others have already posted that this addresses a need for humans to allay anxiety about that which is outside the realm of understanding and to explain via projection that which is confounding in human experience i.e. how do I integrate the feeling that I am both bad and good as evidenced by how others, particularly early parent figures, respond to me. Being ethnocentric, the center of the universe, a child has a sense of omnipotence therefore sees him/herself as the ultimate cause of everything so must integrate that others become angry, sad and happy in response to them. How to then integrate the sense of badness that comes with parental disapproval? This is a universal developmental issue and common to humans of all cultures. A healthy resolution of this developmental issue is the conclusion that " I am good and bad and that is good" (Get along with others who are also good and bad). Less positive resolutions of this developmental issue generate destructive conclusions such as "I am good and others are bad" (Do away with others) or "I am bad and others are good" (Depression and Masochism), "I am bad and others are bad" (Nihilism, Sadism and Sociopathy, Do away with them and me).

5. Addressing the universality of Religion the Mythologist Joseph Campbell concluded that Religion is Universal, found in all cultures, involves a "spiritual journey" from dark, from underground/underwater to the light. This "spiritual journey includes a "dark night of the soul" a struggle to deal with and resolve the issue that Norman O Brown so well said in Life Against Deal that the human condition is that we are a god that chits. Campbell concluded after studying the mythologies (Religions) of the world that if one practices any of them one can become enlightened. Campbell himself sounded most like a Buddhist in his later years. Listen to Bill Moyers interview of Campbell at Lucas's Skywalker Ranch to get a feeling and understanding of his own individual journey.

6. Atheism is a a Theist position. To declare that "There is no god" is to take a position relative to god so is by definition Theist. The opposite of Theism is a yawn and indifference. To be Theist, Agnostic or Atheist is to take a stance related to Theism and indicates that one is engaged in the "journey" that Campbell so eloquently describes in his voluminous works on the subject.

7. The more insecure a person is the more rigid their Religious beliefs. It takes great faith to be open to ones experience and little faith to follow and spew dogma in a rote fashion. The Bible and Koran thumpers have the same Psychology that is based upon fear and insecurity, fundamentalists are basically fearful and need control of themselves and others to feel the elusive feeling of safety. Fundamentalism however never works in the long run as it runs counter to the equally powerful drive in humans for differentiation, exploration, learning and mastery thru trial and error.

8. My hope when I die is that I will be open to what comes next, even if it nothing and I have no conscious experience of it. If I do have a conscious experience of it then I want to be open to what ever it is, be it a dancing, colorful vibration of light, reincarnation, or meeting Donald Duck in flowing robes on a throne. I want to be open to any and all of these possibilities! It's the best I can do given what I know and don't know. I also hope that I can approach what ever to happen as I hope to live and that is with a sense of joy, wonder and awe!

Iflyfishandwaxphilosophicattimeswithmynomadamigos

Ken Bondy - 6-9-2012 at 06:12 PM

Wonderful discussion Iflyfish, very thoughtful and eloquently stated. Dawkins thinks that religion is hardwired into us (Dawkins, Richard, "The God Delusion", Chapter 5). That would explain its universality. It is, Dawkins hypothesized, an unintended by-product of evolution. Natural selection favored children who did what their parents told them to do (“…stay away from that cliff…don’t put your hand in that fire…don’t jump in that water…etc.”) The kids who paid attention to their parents tended to survive and procreate more often than those who didn’t. But along with the wise admonitions, early kids almost always got some bad advice (“…we must worship (zeus, apollo, sun woman, moon man, god, allah, etc.) so the crops will be good and the sun will continue to rise…”). The children favored by natural selection thus got the religious garbage along with the stuff that was actually valuable.

[Edited on 6-10-2012 by Ken Bondy]

Skipjack Joe - 6-9-2012 at 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Actually the holocaust had a lot to do with religion. From the horse's mouth:

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator."

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

Are you saying that the notion of arian supremacy was promoted by the church? I thought that the church wasn't even aware of the death camps.

My thinking is that arian supremacy was well received by the german people. But the camps were largely a "secret", although dad said everyone knew about them during the war. The church in a dictator state like that is subjugated to the state and merely rubber stamps everything in order to survive.

I don't think Mein Kampf was written from any religious conviction.

Barry A. - 6-9-2012 at 06:22 PM

Iflyfish--------Excellent piece!!!

I was somewhat surprised and a little dismayed in the latter part of Paragraph 4 that one stage or result of child development was not "I am good, and others are good too". Was that just omitted by mistake, or was it not considered?

Barry

Ken Bondy - 6-9-2012 at 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

You're reading more into this than is there Igor. I am merely quoting the author. Although I could give you many more quotes, in speeches and writings other than Mein Kampf, where he proclaimed his Christianity, his belief in god, and the fact that he was acting in accordance with god's wishes. Much like George Bush saying that god told him to invade Iraq.

oxxo - 6-9-2012 at 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I'll have to think about the statement that religion and science should be discussed in a similar manner. In a book, I agree. But the fact that one is holy and worshipped and the other is a set of observations and conclusions makes me feel that in a forum you are offending people in the first case and merely disagreeing with them in the other case.

What if a person's religion IS science? Your "a priori" conclusions are most evident.

oxxo - 6-9-2012 at 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Are you saying that the notion of arian supremacy was promoted by the church? I thought that the church wasn't even aware of the death camps.

Really? You should read some history (from all perspectives) about Pius XII's relationship with the Nutzis.

Mexitron - 6-9-2012 at 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
This has evolved into a very interesting discussion indeed. I appreciate the civility of the dialogue, one, like race, that is difficult to have. Feelings run deep on the subject so it is rare to experience civil dialogue about it, I love the injection of humor into the discourse.

As a 35 plus years practicing Psychotherapy, and one who has made a formal study of Philosophy, Theology and Comparative Religions I have drawn some conclusions I would like to share.

1. It is nearly impossible to separate ones Psychology from ones Religion. I suspect that we choose a religion, to the extent that we choose and are not conditioned, on the basis of our Psychology. If our parents were religious and we were exposed to it then it is an issue to be addressed in our Psychology. Some of us inherit very heavy bags of rocks, some not so much.

2. Religion can be have both positive and negative influence upon people and nations. Religion can provide a common moral code, which can facilitate the rule of law. Since the metaphors of religion are so general it can also support unspeakable human behavior and atrocities. Religion can be the last bastion of a scoundrel or provide hope and a sense of being loved for a severely abused person, much as the ownership of a cat or dog can provide a sense of unconditional love. I don't mean to trivialize religion by the comparison but use it to point to a common experience of unconditional love, one of the great balms that religion can provide.

3. Religion can and has had a powerful influence on culture and the common beliefs and values of a society. It can support passivity as Roman Catholicism has in Latin America, the mass being in Latin and unintelligible to the common man in the pew who is overwhelmed with the size and glory of the edifices. For many in Mexico the Roman Catholic Church provided native people with a place to project their old religions and maintain their historical practices, there are snakes (Quetzalcoatl) for example to be found in the architecture of Cathedrals in Mexico, I have seen them along with other Pr-Colombian natavist iconography.

4. Religion is universal, found in all cultures so must fulfill a deep need for human beings. I suspect as others have already posted that this addresses a need for humans to allay anxiety about that which is outside the realm of understanding and to explain via projection that which is confounding in human experience i.e. how do I integrate the feeling that I am both bad and good as evidenced by how others, particularly early parent figures, respond to me. Being ethnocentric, the center of the universe, a child has a sense of omnipotence therefore sees him/herself as the ultimate cause of everything so must integrate that others become angry, sad and happy in response to them. How to then integrate the sense of badness that comes with parental disapproval? This is a universal developmental issue and common to humans of all cultures. A healthy resolution of this developmental issue is the conclusion that " I am good and bad and that is good" (Get along with others who are also good and bad). Less positive resolutions of this developmental issue generate destructive conclusions such as "I am good and others are bad" (Do away with others) or "I am bad and others are good" (Depression and Masochism), "I am bad and others are bad" (Nihilism, Sadism and Sociopathy, Do away with them and me).

5. Addressing the universality of Religion the Mythologist Joseph Campbell concluded that Religion is Universal, found in all cultures, involves a "spiritual journey" from dark, from underground/underwater to the light. This "spiritual journey includes a "dark night of the soul" a struggle to deal with and resolve the issue that Norman O Brown so well said in Life Against Deal that the human condition is that we are a god that chits. Campbell concluded after studying the mythologies (Religions) of the world that if one practices any of them one can become enlightened. Campbell himself sounded most like a Buddhist in his later years. Listen to Bill Moyers interview of Campbell at Lucas's Skywalker Ranch to get a feeling and understanding of his own individual journey.

6. Atheism is a a Theist position. To declare that "There is no god" is to take a position relative to god so is by definition Theist. The opposite of Theism is a yawn and indifference. To be Theist, Agnostic or Atheist is to take a stance related to Theism and indicates that one is engaged in the "journey" that Campbell so eloquently describes in his voluminous works on the subject.

7. The more insecure a person is the more rigid their Religious beliefs. It takes great faith to be open to ones experience and little faith to follow and spew dogma in a rote fashion. The Bible and Koran thumpers have the same Psychology that is based upon fear and insecurity, fundamentalists are basically fearful and need control of themselves and others to feel the elusive feeling of safety. Fundamentalism however never works in the long run as it runs counter to the equally powerful drive in humans for differentiation, exploration, learning and mastery thru trial and error.

8. My hope when I die is that I will be open to what comes next, even if it nothing and I have no conscious experience of it. If I do have a conscious experience of it then I want to be open to what ever it is, be it a dancing, colorful vibration of light, reincarnation, or meeting Donald Duck in flowing robes on a throne. I want to be open to any and all of these possibilities! It's the best I can do given what I know and don't know. I also hope that I can approach what ever to happen as I hope to live and that is with a sense of joy, wonder and awe!

Iflyfishandwaxphilosophicattimeswithmynomadamigos

Joe Campbell in the Moyer's interview kinda says a lot of it, eh?

I'll say this for Buddhism---the number one tenet is Be A Light Unto Yourself----thus negating the religious stuff.........

bajadogs - 6-9-2012 at 10:05 PM

Quote:

"Faith" is a very personal thing. Why air it in public?

Barry

We agree!!! It's great to have you on our side. Religious symbols have no place on public land. Prayer and religion have no place in public education. I'm glad you're with us Barry. Separation of church and state protects both church and state right? A little sarcasm here but man, you nailed it. Great quote!

Iflyfish - 6-9-2012 at 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Iflyfish--------Excellent piece!!!

I was somewhat surprised and a little dismayed in the latter part of Paragraph 4 that one stage or result of child development was not "I am good, and others are good too". Was that just omitted by mistake, or was it not considered?

Barry

Yup, I'm ok and your ok! Bad writing, thanks for the clarification.

Iflyfish

Skipjack Joe - 6-9-2012 at 10:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oxxo

Quote:

What if a person's religion IS science? Your "a priori" conclusions are most evident.

Personally that wouldn't make sense to me.

Good science is reached through detachment. Experiments are established and things are disclaimed or proven. Either way, they should not matter to the investigator because all results are equally valid. We just move on. When a scientist loses that detachment he stops being objective. Yes, it's great to discover the cure for cancer but usually the investigastor's state of being has little to do with the process.

Religion is quite different. Attachment is what it's all about. Faith is an important part of the experience. Truth is less important than devotion.

I'm not religious but have watched enough of them to sort of understand.

wessongroup - 6-9-2012 at 11:24 PM

"What if a person's religion IS science?" or what if a person's science IS religion ?..

As that seems to be what is happening in Quntum Physics with some folks ...

Kinda like the step before ... discussion of either, first comes our reality and consciousness

The Quantum Activist an interesting movie on the topic ... it's on Netflix watch it ..

Bajafun777 - 6-10-2012 at 12:16 AM

It is the countries without Christian religion which are the most backward and evil in their dealings with their people especially women. Evil people do evil horrible things and it has nothing to do with the Christian religion or those that have accepted Jesus as their Savior. I will say a prayer for those of you that do not believe Jesus is your path to heaven.

Our USA was founded by those that believed in God along with the teachings of Jesus. Our founding fathers also knew and believed that religion was a good thing. Separation of church and State was never meant to mean that we needed laws to take away religion's part in our Country. You can keep your non-christian life and I guess when you find out you were wrong it will be in a burning ring of fire, which will be so sad!!

Christians have done more to help people throughout the USA and other countries than any other religion or foreign government. If you look to science to explain everything then you are already in trouble because it won't. Faith along with Christian lifestyles are what keeps this USA from the pits of crap like other non-Christian countries. This is especially true for the islamic countries with their pedifile lowlife whose body can be found in a grave for a reason.

Christians have withstood attacks by those who do not believe or those that wish to destroy us but they can't take away from "IN GOD WE TRUST." May GOD be with you and the love of Jesus find your heart. Take Care & Travel Safe-----"No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777

Ken Bondy - 6-10-2012 at 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajafun777
You can keep your non-christian life and I guess when you find out you were wrong it will be in a burning ring of fire.......

Thanks for this lovely and informative post Bajafun777. It reminds me, in the immortal words of Bertrand Russell, why I am not a christian.

A god who offers absolutely no evidence for his/her existence, yet who would barbeque me in hell for eternity just for not believing in him/her, no matter how good my life was otherwise, is just too cruel and immoral to be real.

Osprey - 6-10-2012 at 05:28 AM

Spinoza, the first vocal, open pantheist struck a tenous balance by declaring his God was nature magnified to infinity. The view represents, to me, a massive glue that becomes very convenient. God as nature becomes as stunningly uber as any diety, all things considered and lessons learned at nature's knee could be very humbling (as in "dead or alive", saved by the bell moments). Who/what is more powerfully grand and awful than what we already know about nature?

paranewbi - 6-10-2012 at 05:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajafun777
You can keep your non-christian life and I guess when you find out you were wrong it will be in a burning ring of fire.......

Interesting Ken.
Why would God deal any other way with a person who just made the statement you did. You have chosen to not take what was offered and determined your own eternity. How more gracious could God be then to allow us to make our own choices...no matter how cruel we are to ourselves (and each other).

"But Abraham said. "If they won't listen to MOses and the prophets, they won't listen even if someone rises from the dead."" NLT Luke 16:31

-11 others (not John) went to their death on the basis of seeing someone rise from the dead.
-Over 500 others saw a person raised from the dead.
-The prevailing government in a matter of years felt threatened by a 'religion' founded on someone rising from the dead.

I could go on and on but...'they won't listen'

Ken Bondy - 6-10-2012 at 06:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Truth is less important than devotion.

So disappointed that you could possibly say that amigo. Please reconsider. How could ANYTHING be more important than truth? What benefit accrues by devoting yourself to something that is not true?

paranewbi - 6-10-2012 at 06:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajafun777
You can keep your non-christian life and I guess when you find out you were wrong it will be in a burning ring of fire.......

oxxo - 6-10-2012 at 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
A healthy resolution of this developmental issue is the conclusion that " I am good and bad and that is good" (Get along with others who are also good and bad). Less positive resolutions of this developmental issue generate destructive conclusions such as "I am good and others are bad" (Do away with others) or "I am bad and others are good" (Depression and Masochism), "I am bad and others are bad" (Nihilism, Sadism and Sociopathy, Do away with them and me).

This concept is the subject of a book, "I'm Okay, You're Okay" written by an acquaintance of mine, an academic. Honest exploration and examination of any subject, religion for example, can lead to mutual understanding, if not agreement.

the Brazilian theologist Leonardo Boff wrote:

In a round table discussion about religion and freedom in which Dalai Lama
and myself were participating at recess, I maliciously and also with interest, asked him: “Your holiness, what is the best religion?”
I thought he would say: “The Tibetan Buddhism” or “The oriental religions, much older than Christianity.”
The Dalai Lama paused, smiled and looked me in the eyes …. which surprised me because I knew of the malice contained in my question.

He answered: “The best religion is the one that gets you closest to God. It is the one that makes you a better person.”
To get out of my embarrassment with such a wise answer, I asked: “What is it that makes me better?”
He responded:
“Whatever makes you
more compassionate,
more sensible,
more detached,
more loving,
more humanitarian,
more responsible,
more ethical.”
“The religion that will do that for you is the best religion”
I was silent for a moment, marveling and even today thinking of his wise and irrefutable response:
“I am not interested, my friend, about your religion or if you are religious or not.
“What really is important to me is your behavior in front of your peers, family, work, community, and in front of the world.
“Remember, the universe is the echo of our actions and our thoughts.”
“The law of action and reaction is not exclusively for physics. It is also of human relations. If I act with goodness, I will receive goodness. If I act with evil, I will get evil.”
“What our grandparents told us is the pure truth. You will always have what you desire for others. Being happy is not a matter of destiny. It is a matter of options.”
Finally he said:
“Take care of your Thoughts because they become Words.
Take care of your Words because they will become Actions.
Take care of your Actions because they will become Habits.
Take care of your Habits because they will form your Character.
Take care of your Character because it will form your Destiny,
and your Destiny will be your Life
… and …
“There is no religion higher than the Truth.”

This exchange has given me, personally, great comfort. Unfortunately, what I see around me is too many religions, specifically Christian and Muslim, do not make many of their adherents better people. Is that the fault of the specific religion or specific people? My conclusion and answer is that it is the fault of both. So I have taken his High, Holy Llamaness's advice. I, for one, am searching for "the Truth." I am convinced I have found it. "The Truth" hasn't made me a perfect person, but I believe that it has made me an evolving better person.

Ken Bondy - 6-10-2012 at 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by paranewbi

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajafun777
You can keep your non-christian life and I guess when you find out you were wrong it will be in a burning ring of fire.......

paranewbi please do not quote biblical verse to me unless you acknowledge and accept everything your god commands you in that repulsive book. Like .....

You must kill anyone who does not worship your particular god (Deuteronomy 13:7-11)

You must kill anyone who works on weekends (Exodus 31:15, 35:2)

It is perfectly acceptable to keep slaves, as long as you buy them from neighboring countries and don't beat them so badly as to injure their eyes (Leviticus 25:44, Exodus 21:20 and 26).

Virgin women who are raped must marry their rapist (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)

You must kill your children for talking back to you (Leviticus 20:9, Exodus 21:17)

I could go on with other gems of biblical wisdom from the inerrant creator of the universe but, as you say, "they won't listen". So please make your points without citing the biblical garbage as support. It is offensive.

Back to my point. If your god was real, and if he/she was loving, and if he/she knew that I didn't believe in him/her, don't you think he/she might give me some type of evidence of his/her existence, some little sign, before frying me for eternity? Seems like that's the loving thing to do.

[Edited on 6-10-2012 by Ken Bondy]

Skipjack Joe - 6-10-2012 at 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Truth is less important than devotion.

So disappointed that you could possibly say that amigo. Please reconsider. How could ANYTHING be more important than truth? What benefit accrues by devoting yourself to something that is not true?

Comfort. Fulfillment.

Religion has a dismal record in unearthing our universes physical laws, which I'm referring as scientific truths. The middle ages were the dark ages. People were burned for discovering basic physical laws.

When I wrote about religious truth last night I was thinking of personal truths. Truths that are different for one individual from another and which can't be verified and measured by man.

I still maintain that there is a place for religion in man that science can't approach. Knowing that CO2 forms covalent bonds between it's atoms is an important truth that provides little comfort to any individual. Scientific truth is obtained in a cold world of mathematics and computer like precision. An almost robotic like assessment.

Religious truth is all about satisfaction.

I'm going to stick this in here because it's relevant:

When Mother Theresa died they published her diaries. There they found writings that showed that she had doubts virtually her entire life. By doubts they meant she wasn't completely sure of God's existence. But she fought these doubts with faith. She willed herself to believe in something she wasn't sure about completely and she worked on this all her life. Such a thing is absurd in the scientific approach to truth where faith plays no role whatsoever. So her truth was achieved through prayer and effort.

Ken, I wrote that my statements come from my observations of religious friends. I tried to understand their world.

BajaDove - 6-10-2012 at 07:38 AM

This quote came up on my facebook the other day. Seems to fit here. I don't know who I'm miss quoting.
"Religion is like a penis. It's good to have one. Fine to be proud of it, But don't take it out and wave it around, or try to stuff it down my kid throat."

Bajafun777 - 6-10-2012 at 07:55 AM

Ken, God will not BBQ you in hell, however your own life choices will since you know about Jesus and his teachings but choose another path which does not accept him. Only Jesus is the path into heaven.

Some of the religious quotes here are not from the new testament which gave everyone a path which did not allow violence on others. One quote without taking in the entire teaching of the bible is one which only is an attempt to make people stray from the word of God.

Skipjack Joe, it should be noted that Mother Theresa saw so much pain and suffering during her years of service to Jesus that it took a toll on her in more ways than any of us will ever understand. Even though she lived this world of pain and suffering her belief in Jesus and his teachings made others she helped have a way to overcome their life of despair. She may have had doubts at some point but Jesus found a way to overcome those doubts and keep her helping those much less fortunate and needing the word of God. Prayer is the way to truth and a better way to overcome those things in life that seem to have no way out. May she rest in peace along with the being in the loving arms of Jesus.

Jesus has more than proved his being on earth and God sent him so that someone that is lost such as you Ken can be saved. Jesus paid for your sins so enjoy his gift and truly read the new testament for a better understanding of Jesus's love of you. Christians do not want you to burn in hell and I definately will pray for you and hoping a better loving life with Jesus will happen for you. I have traveled both paths and let me confess to you and others that the path with Jesus has enriched my life and family. Take Care & Travel Safe----"No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777

Pompano - 6-10-2012 at 08:15 AM

DO I NEED RELIGION? One never knows for sure, right? Until that most important time...and even then it could be all about YOUR perception of what YOU expect it to be.

Which might not be the case!...as told here:

A Preacher Goes Hunting

A country preacher decided to skip services one Sunday and head
to the hills to do some bear hunting.

As he rounded the corner
on a perilous twist in the trail, he and a bear collided,
sending him and his rifle tumbling down the mountainside. Before
he knew it, his rifle went one way and he went the other,
landing on a rock and breaking both legs.

That was the good news.

The bad news was the ferocious bear charging at him from a
distance, and he couldn't move.

"Oh, Lord," the preacher prayed,
"I'm so sorry for skipping services today to come out here and
hunt. Please forgive me and grant me just one wish...please make
a Christian out of that bear that's coming at me. Please, Lord!"

That very instant, the bear skidded to a halt, fell to its
knees, clasped its paws together and began to pray aloud right
at the preacher's feet.

"Dear God, bless this food I am about to
receive...."

Ken Bondy - 6-10-2012 at 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajafun777
Some of the religious quotes here are not from the new testament which gave everyone a path which did not allow violence on others. One quote without taking in the entire teaching of the bible is one which only is an attempt to make people stray from the word of God.

Like most religious people, Bajafun777, you state things with certainty that you could not possibly know. Evidence please.

You need to read your bible more carefully. Jesus himself said that every word in the old testament must be obeyed "...until all things have taken place." (Matthew 5:18). So that old, tired cherry pick religious people always use to ignore biblical evil ("oh, that's in the old testament, jesus fixed all that") can't be used here. Sorry.

You pray for me, I will think for you.

[Edited on 6-10-2012 by Ken Bondy]

Ken Bondy - 6-10-2012 at 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Truth is less important than devotion.

So disappointed that you could possibly say that amigo. Please reconsider. How could ANYTHING be more important than truth? What benefit accrues by devoting yourself to something that is not true?

You know I respect your opinion Igor, but I am bewildered at how you could possibly think that comfort and fulfillment could ever be realized from a concept which is not true. Comfort and fulfillment comes from seeking truth, not ignoring it. Some comfort and fulfillment might be achieved short-term by believing in an imaginary god, but it is just that, temporary.

"Religious truth" seems to me to be an oxymarooon.

I get great comfort and fulfillment from the beauty and complexity of the natural world, and the fact that through honest scientific investigation we are learning more about it and how it came to be. The natural world is so much more beautiful than any of the religious fairy tales.

[Edited on 6-10-2012 by Ken Bondy]

bufeo - 6-10-2012 at 08:35 AM

My, my. I poked my head in here this morning to see what all the fuss was about with Skeet's "Farewell Speech".

I read the entire thread then with interest, from a non-believer's perspective, that is.

I've sure run into a lot of religious zealots during my 75 years. None has convinced me, though, to latch onto their beliefs.

Allen R
Oh, btw, my father was a Southern Presbyterian minister, so religious indoctrination I've had.

Bajafun777 - 6-10-2012 at 08:46 AM

Ken, it is your choice to do as you please but hoping for the best for you and the others that choose a different path. Again, to take things out of the bible with one liners is not going to help anyones understanding. I do not in fact know all and never will but I do know that when reading and being in prayer groups it helps to better understand the word of God.

Misunderstanding of bible and Gods path for us is not going to be resolved on this site. We could go back and forth with verses from the bible but this is not the right way to share the word with you and others, however Church would best serve that purpose. I wish you the best in your quest for truth but again it will not be found on this site regarding God. I will not preach to you or others but just let you know it has made a big change in my life. I have been given so many oppurtunies due to prayers, along with having some very close calls of life being over my belief in Jesus has brought me back from being taken from this life. So, my life will end in loving and accepting God's path in life.

Again, I have said a prayer for you and others here that are so set on the path which is not God's will. Every man and woman makes a choice and I will make mine with the Lord. Hopefully some day when I am called home I will enjoy God in ways that I never even dreamed of. Take Care & Travel Safe-----"No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777

Iflyfish - 6-10-2012 at 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
Spinoza, the first vocal, open pantheist struck a tenous balance by declaring his God was nature magnified to infinity. The view represents, to me, a massive glue that becomes very convenient. God as nature becomes as stunningly uber as any diety, all things considered and lessons learned at nature's knee could be very humbling (as in "dead or alive", saved by the bell moments). Who/what is more powerfully grand and awful than what we already know about nature?

Well said, I have always felt more "spiritual" in nature where I feel great awe, hope and wonder, experience/feelings that I hope to continue to have as long as I live on this planet. I symbolically spit when saying this word as it has been denigrated to mean something akin to an organ when it is in actuality a mood / state of being generated by specific areas in the brain as referenced in a previous post). These “spiritual” states can be induced by direct electrical brain stimulation in particular regions of the brain, deep meditation, intense sexual experiences, extreme pain, near death experiences, anoxia, immersion in nature, psychedelic drugs, hypnogogic dream states, brain trauma or neurofeeback.

The great Naturalist and Transcendental writers have always seen nature as their cathedrals.

I like the way Alfred, Lord Tennyson said it.

Flower in the crannied wall,
I pluck you out of the crannies,
I hold you here, root and all, in my hand,
Little flower -but if I could understand
What you are, root and all, and all in all,
I should know what God and man is.

or the wonder of Basho the 17th Century Japanese poet.

When I look carefully
I see the nazuna blooming
by the hedge!

Ah, would that I could write with the pith of an Osprey!

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 6-10-2012 at 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oxxo

Quote:

I marvel a this profound dialogue. Thank you so much for sharing this with us. Gives me shivers and makes me smile! So much truth in such a short exchange, gets to the heart of it doesn't it.

“Remember, the universe is the echo of our actions and our thoughts.” I am sure one can get there by long enough pondering on this simple statement. Gives me goosebumps. This shifts the focus from god out there to god in here and that changes everything!

Thank you oxxo.

Iflyfishingness

Osprey - 6-10-2012 at 09:06 AM

OMG. Thanx flyguy

Barry A. - 6-10-2012 at 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oxxo

Quote:

BINGO!!!!! You (& the Dalai Lama) nailed it, Oxxo, for me at least. Personally, I am Agnostic, but try to follow the relevant "Golden Rules".

For me, "end of story".

In answer to an above poster referencing me---------Tho I believe in the separation of Church and State in principal, I am not hung up on the concept, and am not at all disturbed by "symbols" that historically have been on Public Lands belonging to a Country that I feel was essentially founded on Christian/Judeo principals and beliefs from all that I have read (I was a SW USA History Minor in College).

Barry

DianaT - 6-10-2012 at 09:23 AM

Thank you all for the great discussion about spirituality, religion, etc. It is Sunday and when we are here in Baja I miss attending our Unitarian/Universalist Church where just about every tradition is represented including atheism, all the eastern traditions, western traditions, ancient traditions, etc.

It is a place where the truth is not spelled with a capital T. Some people feel uncomfortable with our church because they believe in one TRUTH for all. Thus, while not all, many of you with your search and discussion fill in for missing church today.

On edit --- Barry, the founders of the US were mostly a part of the liberal religious traditions of the time. They were Diests and children of the enlightenment ---- they were not the fundamentalist Christians that some like to think they were. Even George Washington, while claiming to be an Anglican did not take communion.

[Edited on 6-10-2012 by DianaT]

paranewbi - 6-10-2012 at 09:28 AM

Hi Ken;

You do quote correctly from the Old Testament. I am glad you have read some. What you may not understand is that God chose the descendants of Abraham to carry forth the message that came to the whole world on the sacrifice of his son Jesus Christ. The ‘laws’ as quoted by you and much more were in place to assure to some extent that the carrying forth of the message would meet with some success as the ability of man on his own was very limited, and actually so if you read of the tribes in the world at that time and how they conducted themselves outside of the intervention of God. (Much as the world at this time is progressing so ‘beautifully’ and ‘naturally’ now, yahoo! [sarcasm]).

Simply stated; The Jews were chosen to carry the word of God and the subsequent “Good News” that came with the Cross and the release of the burden of the ‘law’ as per your quotes (‘The vale was torn’). The Jews were not chosen to Salvation and yes some of them are not in heaven. The laws were there to help the Jews to have a modicum of longevity (wow! Only civilization still here! Even though many have tried to get rid of them). If you look at Leviticus you will find how to get rid of mold on the walls of your house without getting sick! Thank you God!

This of course is an answer to your quoting a portion of the Bible we as Christians know we are no longer held to (and by the way, yes the admonishment to carry the laws was valid as you quote from Mathew, but please take note that most quotes out of context are deceptive and you will find that Christ’s disciples picked grain on the Sabbath and that answer to your context can be found in many places other than the isolation you choose to quote it as, let’s be sincere here if not in agreement please).

Your opinion is just that as mine is of course just mine. Argument is how reasonable men reason with each other. Proof is how the unreasonable are reasoned with. Outside of that it is foolishness that causes a dialogue.
I can offer you some references to reason with you by much greater minds than mine if you need it intellectually. U2U me if you are interested.

If not, then I would like to say God Bless you Bajafun777! I hope to meet you one day!

Ken Bondy - 6-10-2012 at 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajafun777
Ken, it is your choice to do as you please but hoping for the best for you and the others that choose a different path. Again, to take things out of the bible with one liners is not going to help anyones understanding. I do not in fact know all and never will but I do know that when reading and being in prayer groups it helps to better understand the word of God.

Misunderstanding of bible and Gods path for us is not going to be resolved on this site. We could go back and forth with verses from the bible but this is not the right way to share the word with you and others, however Church would best serve that purpose. I wish you the best in your quest for truth but again it will not be found on this site regarding God. I will not preach to you or others but just let you know it has made a big change in my life. I have been given so many oppurtunies due to prayers, along with having some very close calls of life being over my belief in Jesus has brought me back from being taken from this life. So, my life will end in loving and accepting God's path in life.

Again, I have said a prayer for you and others here that are so set on the path which is not God's will. Every man and woman makes a choice and I will make mine with the Lord. Hopefully some day when I am called home I will enjoy God in ways that I never even dreamed of. Take Care & Travel Safe-----"No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777

Bajafun777
There are billions of people (muslims and jews) who emphatically disagree with your religious views. They believe, just as fervently as you, in a completely different religious story. They have exactly the same evidence you have for what you believe - none. Does this bother you? It should, since each of the three major monotheistic religions tells its believers that non-believers must be killed (see Deuteronomy 13:7-11 for the killing instructions to christians and jews, similar instructions are found throughout the qur'an). Killing people for believing in a different fairy tale has largely gone out of fashion in the western world, but it is still very popular in some other parts of the world. As a religious person who believes in one of the conflicting religions, do you think this situation is healthy for the future of human civilization?

As to biblical "one-liners", please show me where any of my biblical quotes was taken out of context or was not precisely what is stated in the bible. You simply can't wordsmith or cherry pick these vicious, evil quotes from the "good book". The killing instructions in Deuteronomy (13:7-11) are even prefaced by a message from god itself (Deuteronomy 13:1) telling us that his killing instructions must be taken literally (...do not add or subtract anything from what I command you...)

Iflyfish - 6-10-2012 at 09:35 AM

Quote:

I have been following this exchange you are having with Ken and appreciate both of you sharing your divergent perspectives and earnest attempt to share your thinking/beliefs. It is refreshing to see and to engage in civil dialogue about these issues on Nomad, where rancor has so often ruled the day.

I think Ken has eloquently laid out the case for reason and science and the cherry picking of scripture to make a circular argument by those who buttress their arguments by quoting scripture. (It is true because the bible told me so) You have laid out the case for the value of belief based upon something other than science and reason. You have also shared with us the value of this belief system in your own life and how that belief system has in your view literally saved your life and made you a better person.

Osprey has well presented a clear case for the resolution of the dualistic view of god/man, man/nature in laying out the case that we are an integral part of nature and can find fulfillment and the answers to our questions in it.

Others, including myself have elaborated on the neuro/psychological/mythological underpinnings of "religious" experience.

Others have provided us with confrontations of hubris and the real experience of lightness and liberation that laughter can bring.

In my view Oxxo has presented a compelling integration of these seeming divergent perspectives in his quotes from the Dali Lama.

What a great dialogue! Viva fellow Nomads.

Iflyfishconminomadamigos

Ken Bondy - 6-10-2012 at 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by paranewbi
Hi Ken;

You do quote correctly from the Old Testament. I am glad you have read some. What you may not understand is that God chose the descendants of Abraham to carry forth the message that came to the whole world on the sacrifice of his son Jesus Christ. The ‘laws’ as quoted by you and much more were in place to assure to some extent that the carrying forth of the message would meet with some success as the ability of man on his own was very limited, and actually so if you read of the tribes in the world at that time and how they conducted themselves outside of the intervention of God. (Much as the world at this time is progressing so ‘beautifully’ and ‘naturally’ now, yahoo! [sarcasm]).

Simply stated; The Jews were chosen to carry the word of God and the subsequent “Good News” that came with the Cross and the release of the burden of the ‘law’ as per your quotes (‘The vale was torn’). The Jews were not chosen to Salvation and yes some of them are not in heaven. The laws were there to help the Jews to have a modicum of longevity (wow! Only civilization still here! Even though many have tried to get rid of them). If you look at Leviticus you will find how to get rid of mold on the walls of your house without getting sick! Thank you God!

This of course is an answer to your quoting a portion of the Bible we as Christians know we are no longer held to (and by the way, yes the admonishment to carry the laws was valid as you quote from Mathew, but please take note that most quotes out of context are deceptive and you will find that Christ’s disciples picked grain on the Sabbath and that answer to your context can be found in many places other than the isolation you choose to quote it as, let’s be sincere here if not in agreement please).

Your opinion is just that as mine is of course just mine. Argument is how reasonable men reason with each other. Proof is how the unreasonable are reasoned with. Outside of that it is foolishness that causes a dialogue.
I can offer you some references to reason with you by much greater minds than mine if you need it intellectually. U2U me if you are interested.

If not, then I would like to say God Bless you Bajafun777! I hope to meet you one day!

Thanks paranewbi, but, like other religious people, you state things with certainty that you could not possibly know. If there was any evidence for what you state absolutely, I would consider it. Lacking evidence for the supernatural, I will take my comfort from the natural world, which is much more beautiful than any of the religious stories I have heard.

Spare me your blessings and your prayers, but I would enjoy meeting you sometime. We would have a spirited discussion

Lee - 6-10-2012 at 09:42 AM

I've stayed out of this fray but now wonder why anyone here needs to ARGUE and DEBATE religion or politics ANY FURTHER?

What is wrong with all of you?

Isn't there a forum somewhere where you can espouse your silliness?

Politics and religion go hand in hand: both corrupt and misguided and meant to fool the masses -- who are obviously easily fooled.

IF any of you nomads NEED to discuss either religion or politics, take it to OT or somewhere else.

Otherwise, carry on.

That is all.

And remember, HAVE FUN! Don't be so serious!

Iflyfish - 6-10-2012 at 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Osprey
OMG. Thanx flyguy

What!!?? A religious experience Osprey? Or was the OMG simply an expression of some orgasmic experience you were having at the time. I have found myself uttering exactly the same phrase at times of mostly shared bliss, or at least when I was led to believe they were shared. How was it for you? Your welcome, it was ok for me.

Iflyfishshakingmyheadsometimes

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