BajaNomad

Going Vegan....

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MrBillM - 9-26-2012 at 02:03 PM

Just finished a BLT.

And Glass of Milk.

WHEN the day comes that the ersatz Bacon tastes as good AND costs the same or less, OK, but until that happens - NO WAY.

My dogs agree.

Although they aren't concerned with cost.

wessongroup - 9-26-2012 at 02:24 PM

Well, if the EPA, FDA and a few more ... would allow testing to be conducted on the "human" population, it would certainly remove that concern ...

Plus, it would move the "approval" of products through agency "review" must faster ...

Some how, I don't think that will be happening ... :):)

Progress ... comes with a cost

SFandH - 9-26-2012 at 02:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Yes, they are a similar issue but the cruelty of testing on living things is magnitudes higher than simply slaughtering one.

Yet I don't think any vegan would refuse a pill to make him well on the basis of the suffering that had gone into making that pill.

Sounds like hypocrisy to me.


It's always difficult when one finds himself in a situation that calls for compromising a moral belief. But that doesn't mean the belief is not worthy nor does it mean it should be abandoned. I'm glad you're thinking about it.

[Edited on 9-26-2012 by SFandH]

Skipjack Joe - 9-26-2012 at 04:15 PM

I also question the notion that we eat meat for the pleasure of it and no other reason.

You mean that all those spearheads and arrowheads we find that go back to paleolithic times are from people just having fun?

Why would someone risk being gored by some large beast (trampled by a mastodon) just for the pleasure of eating something he/she doesn't really need at all?

I'll take that answer while eating my blueberry yogurt. LOL.

[Edited on 9-26-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

SFandH - 9-26-2012 at 04:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I also question the notion that we eat meat for the pleasure of it and no other reason.

You mean that all those spearheads and arrowheads we find that go back to paleolithic times are from people just having fun?

Why would someone risk being gored by some large beast (trampled by a mastodon) just for the pleasure of eating something he/she doesn't really need at all?

I'll take that answer while eating my blueberry yogurt. LOL.

[Edited on 9-26-2012 by Skipjack Joe]


They were hungry and probably didn't spend much time thinking about ethical behavior and the moral values it is based upon, assuming the artifacts you're talking about were used to kill animals for food and not to kill neighboring tribesmen. A common cause of death in "caveman" times was murder, according to forensic anthropologists.

What reason is there to eat meat, cheese, milk, or eggs other than they taste good, when fruits, grains, and vegetables are available?

[Edited on 9-27-2012 by SFandH]

castaway$ - 9-27-2012 at 09:15 AM

Quote:
What reason is there to eat meat, cheese, milk, or eggs other than they taste good, when fruits, grains, and vegetables are available?

[Edited on 9-27-2012 by SFandH]

I would hate to have lived back then in the northern hemisphere and survive as a vegan! Not many fruits, grains and vegetables were available in the dead of winter and leaves just wouldn't provide adequate clothing to survive, meat eaters survive, vegans not so much.

elizabeth - 9-27-2012 at 10:04 AM

In any discussions here about paleo humans and what they ate, and the questions of other resources for food...one major one is missing. Insects. Early humans, and some currently living communities ate or still eat lots of grubs, ant eggs, crickets, cicadas, etc. High in protein. Not exactly vegan, but so far down the food chain, that unless you're a Jain, I can't imagine much in the way of ethical arguments. Is there one? Just curious....

EnsenadaDr - 9-27-2012 at 10:27 AM

Someone on this thread mentioned the animal kingdom's methods of killing which can seem pretty cruel and inhumane. When I was a kid, my mom watched TV continuously (which probably accounts for my distaste of television so much, the "boob tube"). But we did watch "Wild Kingdom" which would show some graceful antelope being chased by a lion, and suffering under the jaws chomping down on their extremities, head or whatever else caught the lion's fancy. The lion didn't think to himself what should be the easiest and most humane to kill...and I looked upon it as natural. My interest in eating vegan is to stay away from saturated fats and cholesterol, lose weight and live a longer life. I am the first to admit that I enjoy bacon, steak, fish, etc. But clearly, loading up your body with heavy duty grease and fat is not going to make you live longer. Alternatively, loading yourself with carbs and having diabetes won't work either. I respect those that give up meat and animal components to stop cruelty to animals, and all should be able to live the life they choose to live. My son commented to me the other day that he did it because he wasn't feeling well, and now feels great (even eating 30 bananas a day, by the way check out the website). I don't recommend 30 bananas a day myself.

SFandH - 9-27-2012 at 03:49 PM

General info about animal rights:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_rights

Two central concepts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentience

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciesism

A popular animal rights lecture (70 minutes) in many languages. Over 1,100,000 views. The speaker, Gary Yourofsky, is currently lecturing in Israel and gives many lectures at American colleges and universities every year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=es6U00LMmC4

Gary Yourofsky's website, lots of info about veganism.

http://www.adaptt.org/


[Edited on 9-27-2012 by SFandH]

Skipjack Joe - 9-28-2012 at 12:17 AM

I also wanted to point out that humans have enzymes specifically for breaking down animal fat and meat proteins. Another words we have been built to eat meat. And that's a fact that can't be denied. That's who we are.

If you force feed meat to any rodent it will vomit the food or pass it out with serious bloating and indigestion problems. It may even kill it. That's a vegetarian. It is incapable of eating anything else. But that's not us.

From a moral point of view I see no reason why one should feel guilty for being what he is. The notion is absurd.

As we all know living manner is broken down into trophic levels. The consumers feed on the producers. How can you possibly come up with a value system that treats the producers with the same values as consumers and vice versa? Only humans are doing this. A wasp feels no remorse for the tarantula it stings because that's how it's young will survive. We're top level apex predators.

But getting back to my original point. Vegans say that we're omnivores and don't need meat. Meat is a luxury we can do without. I'm not convinced. Nothing survives in the natural world unless it has value. If we are built to eat meat there must be some benefit from it or it wouldn't be there.

SFandH - 9-28-2012 at 05:47 AM

Another words we have been built to eat meat.
We are built to be able to eat meat, not to eat meat. Small distinction, but important to the discussion.

From a moral point of view I see no reason why one should feel guilty for being what he is.
Man is not a carnivore. Eating meat is an option. If exercising that option makes you feel guilty because of the suffering it causes sentient animals, don't do it.

If we are built to eat meat there must be some benefit from it or it wouldn't be there.
Scientists have found no benefits to eating meat beyond the benefits of eating plants. Quite the opposite. Personally I know. I lived as an omnivore before and a herbivore now. I've never felt better on a daily basis, it's much easier to maintain a normal weight, and my blood chemistry is the best ever.

Trophic levels? I prefer to live as a herbivore. I have that option.

Read about the various groups of vegetarians throughout the world. There have been many studies. They are all doing fine. In fact less obesity, diabetes, heart disease, cancer. The China Study is a new, scientifically rigorous study that is currently being widely read.

The health benefits of a plant-based diet and the concept of animal rights often get mixed in discussions about veganism. I like to think that health benefits are a reward for having compassion towards sentient animals. Karma. And that's about as far as I have gone into the metaphysical world to date.

Implementation and extension of the Golden Rule to all sentient beings.


[Edited on 9-28-2012 by SFandH]

Skipjack Joe - 9-28-2012 at 07:32 AM

That's the point. You can choose to be a plant eater but you ARE an omnivore. And feeling guilty about what you are makes no sense. Guilt should come from choices we make not what we are. You may choose to not use half of the digestive enzymes your body makes but those that use the full complement should not feel guilty.

I am fully aware of the benefits of eating plant material.

Without having read much on the subject my guess is that we would not have evolved into what we are today without the benefit of a protein rich diet that meat provides. I.e. evolution doesn't happen by accident. Who knows. Perhaps there were plant eating hominids at one time that were outcompeted by the omnivores.

This business of feeling shame for what you are really bothers me. It reminds me of the guilt the churches have tried to make men feel with regards to sexual activity. A totally futile endeavor.

[Edited on 9-28-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

SFandH - 9-28-2012 at 08:29 AM

I'm the type of guy that I hope people would say "wouldn't hurt a fly". Last year there was a snake slithering between the redwood lattice I have attached to a concrete wall. My wife insisted I kill it. I just wanted to let it slither away. She insisted so I killed it. I felt bad doing so. My wife also sets sticky mouse traps. I hate it when I hear a mouse caught and crying, suffering. Feeling guilty when I ignore my compassion for animals is not something I have control over. I wasn't taught it, I didn't learn it. It's innate. That's the difference between this and the church/sex issue, where the church was teaching against innateness.

The meat/dairy industry is very good at hiding the suffering from consumers. The majority of people that know about it make money from it. Vast numbers of animals are suffering because they taste good and for no other reason.

I believe people are taught to quell their compassion.

"Got milk? Does a body good."


[Edited on 9-28-2012 by SFandH]

Skipjack Joe - 9-28-2012 at 10:32 AM

I respect your point of view, SF and H, and share it to a large degree.

elizabeth - 9-28-2012 at 10:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I respect your point of view, SF and H, and share it to a large degree.


Wow, I did too up until the point of reading that you kill snakes and torture mice...how on earth do you talk about animal suffering and use sticky traps for mice????

SFandH - 9-28-2012 at 12:19 PM

At the behest of my wife. It was for the greater good. Perhaps along the lines of self defense. :)

[Edited on 9-28-2012 by SFandH]

Veganistic Meditation

MrBillM - 9-28-2012 at 03:29 PM

Desiring to give appropriate weight to a substantive subject, I dedicated the last two days camping in the mountains to the dietary dilemma and the attendant moral meanderings manifested in the animal-rights question.

At the end of the day, the bright light of inspiration illuminated and revealed the truth to me.

Meat is Neat.

I threw the Rib-Eyes on the B-B-Q.

It was the Christian thing to do.

The Burger at Carl's Jr. on the way home was great, too.

Cheer up, Though.

There's GOT to be someone out there now gnawing on flesh who Might change their minds and decide roots beat steaks .

Maybe.

wessongroup - 9-28-2012 at 03:45 PM

Years ago took a course in comparative evolution of chordate structure ..

"Diet and dentition" was a central topic of the Phylum, as it showed how one "made its living" so to speak

SFandH - 9-28-2012 at 03:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
That's the point. You can choose to be a plant eater but you ARE an omnivore.


I don't know about that. You're splitting hairs, so I will too. I have the capability of being an omnivore, but I am a herbivore, by choice. Why? Because I choose not to subject others to suffering and an unnatural death to satisfy my taste buds.

Thanks for the discussion.

SFandH - 9-28-2012 at 03:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
Desiring to give appropriate weight to a substantive subject, I dedicated the last two days camping in the mountains to the dietary dilemma and the attendant moral meanderings manifested in the animal-rights question.

At the end of the day, the bright light of inspiration illuminated and revealed the truth to me.

Meat is Neat.

I threw the Rib-Eyes on the B-B-Q.

It was the Christian thing to do.

The Burger at Carl's Jr. on the way home was great, too.

Cheer up, Though.

There's GOT to be someone out there now gnawing on flesh who Might change their minds and decide roots beat steaks .

Maybe.


I enjoy your posts, sort of, maybe. You have a way with words.

MMc - 9-28-2012 at 04:06 PM

Why is that most the people that have given up something, spend time tiring to convince the rest of us that we should too? Ex-smoker, ex-meat eater. ex-drinker ex-what ever. I have chosen at one time or another to not do these things, even went Vegan for 1 year. I choose to live a life of moderation in most things, most of the time. I do not believe that I should enforce the same on others, or justify my choice. Being a zealot in anything makes me wonder and question why/who this person is. Once we take up a cause we justify our actions to support the cause.
I live life according to my rules please, don't get upset if I don't choose yours. I don't care if you don't follow mine.;D

Skipjack Joe - 9-28-2012 at 04:07 PM

What hairs am I splitting? We have been created to eat meat and plant material. You choose to do only eat one of the two.

That's like having two arms but going about life with one tied behind your back, the 'bad' one. Your choice.

elizabeth - 9-28-2012 at 04:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SFandH
Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
That's the point. You can choose to be a plant eater but you ARE an omnivore.


I don't know about that. You're splitting hairs, so I will too. I have the capability of being an omnivore, but I am a herbivore, by choice. Why? Because I choose not to subject others to suffering and an unnatural death to satisfy my taste buds.

Thanks for the discussion.


You won't subject others to suffering to satisfy your taste buds, but you will to satisfy your wife...even when more humane choices, e.g., snap traps or havaheart traps for mice, are available?

[Edited on 9-28-2012 by elizabeth]

[Edited on 9-28-2012 by elizabeth]

Choices...

EnsenadaDr - 9-28-2012 at 05:09 PM

Well, my son is a fanatic about forcing this diet on me, not for animal rights as I have mentioned before. I certainly didn't think a diet would be fought over as much as politics or religion!!!
Quote:
Originally posted by MMc
Why is that most the people that have given up something, spend time tiring to convince the rest of us that we should too? Ex-smoker, ex-meat eater. ex-drinker ex-what ever. I have chosen at one time or another to not do these things, even went Vegan for 1 year. I choose to live a life of moderation in most things, most of the time. I do not believe that I should enforce the same on others, or justify my choice. Being a zealot in anything makes me wonder and question why/who this person is. Once we take up a cause we justify our actions to support the cause.
I live life according to my rules please, don't get upset if I don't choose yours. I don't care if you don't follow mine.;D

comitan - 9-28-2012 at 05:52 PM

Your son just wants you to live longer it your choice, you do know the rules.

DavidE - 9-28-2012 at 06:24 PM

comitan - 9-28-2012 at 07:19 PM

Ensenadadr. for you.

http://www.vegetarianoen21dias.org/

Free Choice

MrBillM - 9-28-2012 at 09:07 PM

SOME people (invariably "Liberal") are in favor of the freedom of others to CHOOSE as long as it's the choice THEY (the "Libs") favor.

I'm ALL for ANYBODY choosing to eat Grass, Roots, Leaves or SCHEISSE if they wish.

And to leave others the choice to cook up some Dead COW if so desired.

Along with Pigs, Chickens, Lambs, Fish ..................

I have it on the HIGHEST authority of all that it's OK.

bajadogs - 9-28-2012 at 09:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
SOME people (invariably "Liberal") are in favor of the freedom of others to CHOOSE as long as it's the choice THEY (the "Libs") favor.


Shut up stupid.

A couple of observations about the mores of eating meat

Skipjack Joe - 9-28-2012 at 11:28 PM

pets as food
It's my understanding that the inhabitants of south american forests often capture small animals which are kept in the villages as pets. Eventually, however, these pets are consumed by their owners without any sense of guilt.

cannibalism
Many south sea islanders were bewildered and confused by the revulsion europeans felt for their practice of eating enemies slain in battle. They would go to great lengths to hide these practices from the europeans in order to not offend them. The missionaries were particularly disgusted by these practices, which of course led to replacing a 'bad' culture with a 'good' culture.

DavidE - 9-29-2012 at 08:42 AM

Obtaining a complete protein was and still is a vegetarian's hurdle. Early man did not run down to the corner cave and purchase iron supplements, protein powder, and biotin. How long can a hominid live without ingesting a complete protein?

No doubt our distant ancestors grubbed for food. But the first, and I mean earliest man who chanced upon a dead squirrel, rabbit, deer, or whatever after a lightning strike kindled a fast moving brush fire and roasted an animal. The odor emanating from the animal overcame any fear or doubt, and if protein was in short supply the effect(s) that animal flesh consumption provided (an amazing increase in energy and vitality) overwhelmed a desire to remain vegetarian. I just shake my head and wonder about it. Insects of course could provide protein, but sometimes insects are in too short supply for months at a time.

My opinion is early man survived by asserting a very aggressive stance when it came to trying new things to eat. Scurvy, Rickets, and a whole host of other shortages would have wiped man from the face of the earth had he not been aggressive.

Too much of one thing, too little of another is always detrimental to health of any organism. A person can drink too much water, eat too much salt, live on empty calories and fat...for awhile.

Too many university studies are conducted by researchers who have innate biases for the subject they are studying. Political studies done by hard left or right oriented researchers. Nutrition studies proffered by individuals who are proponents of a restricted or specialized diet. Their very interest in the subject indicates they may have taken a personal position with regard to that subject.

Nutrition should be based on many things. Among them, a balanced diet, free of pesticides, preservatives, added hormones, colors, flavors, etc. IMHO (I have no proof) a diet should contain no more than 5% total weight proportion in meat or meat products. Eighty percent of the remaining portion in fresh fruit and vegetables. Little white flour, and very little refined sugars.

That being said, I'll go grab a Snickers® bar and pour some very strong coffee for breakfast. Yes I am just kidding.

Skipjack Joe - 9-29-2012 at 10:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DavidE

Too much of one thing, too little of another is always detrimental to health of any organism. A person can drink too much water, eat too much salt, live on empty calories and fat...for awhile.



How do the natives of the far north subsist on a a diet that almost completely lacks plant matter. It's my understanding that their diet consists almost entirely of fish, seal and walrus blubber, caribou. Stuff like that. Certainly from novemer to april they must have no access to plant material. Talk about hardening of the arteries. Not 5% meat. 95% meat.

wessongroup - 9-29-2012 at 10:49 AM

Inuit consume a diet of foods that are fished, hunted, and gathered locally. This may include walrus, Ringed Seal, Bearded Seal, beluga whale, caribou, polar bear, muskoxen, birds (including their eggs) and fish. While it is not possible to cultivate plants for food in the Arctic the Inuit have traditionally gathered those that are naturally available. Grasses, tubers, roots, stems, berries, fireweed and seaweed (kuanniq or edible seaweed) were collected and preserved depending on the season and the location.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] According to Edmund Searles in his article "Food and the Making of Modern Inuit Identities," they consume this type of diet because a mostly meat diet is "effective in keeping the body warm, making the body strong, keeping the body fit, and even making that body healthy".[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuit_diet

baitcast - 9-29-2012 at 11:03 AM

Those same folk that eat blubber everything but veggies don,t seem to suffer from coronary problems:rolleyes:

For 3 years I have been on a no or very low fat diet,1 large RIB-EYE in 3 years I,ve toed the mark But boring you bet but for all my hard work I still have had 3 stents installed,working on my Full Metal Jacket:lol:

Would I have been better off eating a little blubber from time to time who knows,love fish and chicken but enough is enough I,m about ready for another RIB-EYE:lol:
Rob

DavidE - 9-29-2012 at 12:51 PM

"Ancient healthy Inuit", is an Oxymarooon.

From a study...

"Inuit Greenlanders, who historically have had limited access to fruits and vegetables, have the worst longevity statistics in North America. Research from the past and present shows that they die on the average about 10 years younger and have a higher rate of cancer than the overall Canadian population".

From Common Sense...

Eating Moose, Caribou, Elk and deer (bison), is a lot different than eating corn fed, hormone laden beef. How much cholesterol does moose or elk have...hmmm? I don't even want to be in the same room as somebody who spouts that beef is better than elk -- I don't care how you rate it.

I am not anti-beef by any means. But the @#$%^&!! they sell wrapped up in the meat department has been doped, injected, and stuffed to the point where it little resembles real beef.

WHY does bacon HAVE TO contain a whopping dose of nitrates? We used to slaughter a hog and cure bacon and have it last for months. Why is there NO expiration date on a package of bacon?

When I sit down to eat, I prefer to dine on stuff that is not straight out of Mother Fletcher's Do It Yourself® chemical preservation laboratory. Or Professor Frankenstein's anti-bacteria first aid kit.

The FDA tests "food additives" and preservatives individually. When the day comes that they tests a large group of people with a witch's brew of twenty of these laboratory additives TOGETHER, then I will unstop my ears against loud protests that "It's Tested Safe!" Sulfur, charcoal, and potassium nitrate are three common and seemingly safe elements, but mix 'em together and POW!

Eating healthy to me does not mean I must avoid meat. But using uncommon sense, I know that all meat is not the same, and food adulterated with hormones, tranquilizers, antibiotics, and other chemicals should come with a skull and crossbones warning. Fruits and vegetables unfortunately have to be treated to resist pests and disease, but in all the uproar, the hype, the utter B.S. issued in copious quantity by "both sides of the issue" I HAVE NEVER READ AN INTELLIGENT TREATISE ON HOW TO GO ABOUT WASHING FRUITS AND VEGETABLES TO REMOVE THE CONTAMINANTS!"

Why is this? Why did I have to freaking re-invent the wheel to learn that simple scrubbing of a mango with tepid water and a strong dishwashing liquid does not remove enough fungicide? It takes hot water. But you'll never read stuff like that because both sides of the aisle are more interested in arguing with each other than doing anything tangible about improving the safety of food.

The nonsense reminds me of a You-Tube cartoon

http://www.youtube.com/user/Birdboxstudio

SHUT UP ?

MrBillM - 9-30-2012 at 04:52 PM

Yeah, what are the odds of THAT happening ?

While I have great respect for Dogs in general and MY dogs in particular, I don't give a hoot what the "Bajadogs" thinks or says. Do what real dogs often do. Eat Scheisse.

Now, back to being Veganistic.

Or, is that Veganarial ?

Determined to give it a try, I started out the afternoon that way.

Boiled up some pasta and made a tomato sauce.

Yum.

OK, so I broke down and added some hamburger, pork sausage and diced chicken along with seasoning.

Washed it down with some 2-percent Udder stuff.

ONE step at a time.

RIGHT ?

comitan - 9-30-2012 at 05:34 PM

It's all about odds, genetic's, fat, exercise. If you push the odds you loose, if you play the odds by following the rules your chance of winning are much greater. No one can do it for you. :yes::yes::yes::yes::yes::yes:

Pedalingforpeace - 10-10-2012 at 05:42 PM

Aloha, we just rode the Baja and had no trouble being vegan, I have been vegan for 6 years now and it seems am destined to stay that way. After browsing through this thread, there is a lot of confusion and misinformation. Just sayin, 30 bananas a day!?!
Feel free to read up on our thoughts and say Aloha, I fell off the Bajanomad wagon trying to keep up with everything, now back in Ensenada making wine ajd Beer, getting ready to go back to our bikes and head to mainland and south... Aloha!
www.pedalingforpeace.com
www.facebook.com/pedalingforpeace

Skipjack Joe - 10-10-2012 at 06:31 PM

Discovered recently that vitamin B12, which is essential to well being, does not exist in an plant matter. I guess vegans are getting it from supplements. Won't go into what this implies about the importance of some meat to pre-20th century man.

The Upside to More Veganarials ?

MrBillM - 10-11-2012 at 05:36 PM

In theory (free-market, that is), more Vegans should mean less demand and, therefore, lower prices for the available supply.

SO, within reason, those of us who devour Flesh with enthusiasm should applaud those who don't.

Of course, using the words "Reason" and "Vegan" in the same sentence is problematic, but that's another argument.

Most Vegans have a Moustached-Adolf attitude.

windgrrl - 10-11-2012 at 06:51 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Discovered recently that vitamin B12, which is essential to well being, does not exist in an plant matter. I guess vegans are getting it from supplements. Won't go into what this implies about the importance of some meat to pre-20th century man.


Apparetly it's not so simple - neither plant nor animal produce the substance.:

"Synthesis and industrial production

Neither plants nor animals are independently capable of constructing vitamin B12.[31] Only bacteria and archaea[32] have the enzymes required for its synthesis...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12

Ahhh...but it does come from yeast and there may be some plant uptake from soil contaminated with manure:
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm

"Industrial production of B12 is through fermentation of selected microorganisms."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12


[Edited on 10-12-2012 by windgrrl]

Getting ALL the Minimum Daily Requirements

MrBillM - 10-11-2012 at 09:08 PM

In ONE package.

Today.

At the movies.

1/4 Lb. All-Beef Hotdog.

Anything that Good has to be all you need.

Skipjack Joe - 10-12-2012 at 12:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by windgrrl
Quote:
Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Discovered recently that vitamin B12, which is essential to well being, does not exist in an plant matter. I guess vegans are getting it from supplements. Won't go into what this implies about the importance of some meat to pre-20th century man.


Apparetly it's not so simple - neither plant nor animal produce the substance.:

"Synthesis and industrial production

Neither plants nor animals are independently capable of constructing vitamin B12.[31] Only bacteria and archaea[32] have the enzymes required for its synthesis...."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12

Ahhh...but it does come from yeast and there may be some plant uptake from soil contaminated with manure:
http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/b12.htm

"Industrial production of B12 is through fermentation of selected microorganisms."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_B12


[Edited on 10-12-2012 by windgrrl]


Although animals do not produce B12 they contain B12 because they are the only organisms that have the bacteria you mention.

To quote the same wikipedia link you provide, but further down:
Quote:

Vitamin B12 is found in foods that come from animals, including fish and shellfish, meat (especially liver), poultry, eggs, milk, and milk products.[1] Eggs are often mentioned as a good B12 source, but they also contain a factor that blocks absorption.[citation needed] However, the binding capacity of heat treated egg yolks and egg whites is markedly diminished after heat treatment.[61] Certain insects such as termites contain B12 produced by their gut bacteria, in a way analogous to ruminant animals.[62] An NIH Fact Sheet lists a variety of food sources of vitamin B12.[1]

Food Micrograms (mcg) per serving Percent DV*
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Clams, cooked, 3 ounces 84.1 1,402
Liver, beef, cooked, 3 ounces 70.7 1,178
Breakfast cereals, fortified with 100% of the DV for vitamin B12, 1 serving 6.0 100
Trout, rainbow, wild, cooked, 3 ounces 5.4 90
Salmon, sockeye, cooked, 3 ounces 4.8 80
Trout, rainbow, farmed, cooked, 3 ounces 3.5 58
Tuna fish, light, canned in water, 3 ounces 2.5 42
Cheeseburger, double patty and bun, 1 sandwich 2.1 35
Haddock, cooked, 3 ounces 1.8 30
Breakfast cereals, fortified with 25% of the DV for vitamin B12, 1 serving 1.5 25
Beef, top sirloin, broiled, 3 ounces 1.4 23
Milk, low-fat, 1 cup 1.2 18
Yogurt, fruit, low-fat, 8 ounces 1.1 18
Cheese, Swiss, 1 ounce 0.9 15
Beef taco, 1 soft taco 0.9 15
Ham, cured, roasted, 3 ounces 0.6 10
Egg, whole, hard boiled, 1 large 0.6 10
Chicken, breast meat, roasted, 3 ounces 0.3 5


Apprently B12 deficiency is common with people over 65. I wonder if this is due to diet changes that we make as we get older. Here are the vitamins obtained by eating beef:

Vitamins %DV
Vitamin A 0%
Vitamin C 258%
Vitamin D ~
Vitamin E ~
Vitamin K ~
Thiamin 10%
Riboflavin 54%
Niacin 86%
Vitamin B6 6%
Folate 3%
Vitamin B12 258%
Pantothenic Acid 27%
Choline ~
Betaine ~

The point made is that man wouldn't have survived without eating meat. And vegans cannot now survive without eating meat byproducts. This idea that we're omnivores who always had a choice to live on either meat or plant matter is simply not true.

deportes - 10-12-2012 at 06:47 AM

STOP the madness. Do yourself a favor and listen to this Surgeon.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRe9z32NZHY&feature=endscreen&NR=1

gnukid - 10-12-2012 at 08:55 AM

At issue with diet and B-12 deficiencies is the gastric INTRINSIC FACTOR which is a protein in your intestine which affects your bodies ability to process and absorb B-12. Tests can determine the presence or lack of sufficient intrinsic factor.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/134307-intrinsic-factor-b1...

Vegans who do not closely manage their diet and keep a food diary are likely to be deficient and at risk of B-12 deficiency.

Wheat may be the cause of intestinal problems and imbalance leading to insufficient intrinsic factor and B-12 deficiency.

The Dark Side of Wheat is very informative
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/page/dark-side-wheat-new-perspec...

B-12 is Essential makes the connection between wheat products and inability to absorb B-12.
http://deletewheat.com/2011/11/09/b12-is-essential/

bent-rim - 10-12-2012 at 01:29 PM

We had a vegatarian with us on a dirt bike trip years ago. He kept getting laughed at by the propieters of any place we stopped to eat. What's funnier is that he loved the flour tortillas and beans and didn't want to hear about all the lard that goes into making flour tortillas and beans.

Unvegan Thoughts

MrBillM - 10-24-2012 at 04:39 PM

AH, those Good Old Days.

While eating out this a.m. and munching on the Bacon, the spouse says "remember that CHEAP Canned Bacon we used to buy. Whatever happened to it" ?

Tasty stuff, BUT (seemingly) containing about a years supply of SALT.

Not having given it any thought, I looked it up.

Celebrity Bacon. Product of Hungary. Website says (2008) "It's BACK" after 20 years off the U.S. market.

Linked to a different website: mredepot.com

The Current product per case of 12 cans (containing 9+ oz of meat) = $159.95.

Definitely NOT cheap any longer.

Guess we'll pass.

monoloco - 10-24-2012 at 06:47 PM

I'm sure all the vegans will love to hear about the meal I had here in north eastern Nicaragua, yesterday I went to a restaurant in Puerto Cabezas with friends and we had a tasty meal of guardiola asado. Guardiola is a large rodent that is very similar to a nutria, tastes just like chicken only completely different, and you definitely need a good set of teeth to eat it.

EnsenadaDr - 10-24-2012 at 06:50 PM

Sounds luscious...I will be heading to Sydney, Australia for Thanksgiving for two weeks and my son has already warned me to "get ready" for "Vegan Boot Camp", ha ha...I will keep you posted!! Already told me NO Diet coke in the frig...I will have to go out to the "dealer" on a daily basis to cop my fix..hahaha!!

[Edited on 10-25-2012 by EnsenadaDr]
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