BajaNomad - Info on school safety for LBGT students in Baja

Info on school safety for LBGT students in Baja

Pages: 1 2

Islandbuilder - 2-1-2013 at 09:58 AM

I became sensitized to the use of "De-Evolution" in college in 1970. The campus had the typical population cross section of the time; hippies, vets fresh from Viet Nam, and a scattering of red necks and preppies.
In my Bio class a very buttoned down type was trying to insult us hippies by suggesting that because we had a lot of hair (ahhhhh, how I miss hair) that perhaps it was a symptom of de-evolution.
The professor, a buttoned down fellow himself, was pretty emphatic making the point that evolution only goes forward, even if forward means to re-visit an earlier adaptation.

The BIG A ?

MrBillM - 2-1-2013 at 11:00 AM

The Vag wrote:

".............One of the arguments against allowing oneself to be described as an atheist is that we don't go around calling people who don't believe in Leprechauns 'aleprechaunists', or people who don't believe in fairies, 'afairieists......".

IF that is one argument, it's a pretty DUMB one.

Since the "A" (in this and many other instances i.e. Amoral, Asexual, etc) denotes the Opposite or LACK.

Since Theist/Theism indicates a belief in a GOD, Atheism indicates (correctly) a lack of said belief.

Nice try, though.

Reminds me of a Liberal the other day arguing over the court decision on the recess appointments.

When challenged repeatedly that the framing of her argument was NOT TRUE, after arguing that it WAS, she finally said "well, OK, so it's not true in a LEGAL sense, it's STILL True".

I guess.

Iflyfish - 2-1-2013 at 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
Well, Rick, I've been busy packing etc. but a couple of times I've poked my head into this discussion, I've seen you refer to this issue as the last great social issue of our time. I very much disagree. There are far more gay people out of the closet than there are atheists. And, atheists are MUCH more hated and mistrusted than homosexuals. The amount of bigotry commonly and mindlessly heaped on those who choose not to worship any of the gods is a growing problem in the USA.

There is a huge movement in America to eliminate the last of the 1st. Amendment separation of church from the state. In six states it is still illegal for an atheist to serve on a jury. Why? Being the scum they judge us to be, we would just lie. This is something a Christian would NEVER do under oath. (we all KNOW that.) :fire:

I stand corrected and appreciate your clarification.

Jesus did hang out with 12 guys, wore robes and never married, hung our with but never boffed a prostitute, talked about lilies and lambs......but heh, who am I to say.

Speaking of fairies (cherubs), which you were to some extent, I had forgotten their prominent role in Christian Mythology and see how much the Priests appreciated them in the Cathedrals of Mexico.

And then there is of course the famous Roman Catholic benediction, really a call to worship "Veniunt hic puer et ostendet mihi mutaber"

I too don't need an invisible friend, but think that any argument I might make in this regard has been well covered by Bondy, Dawkins and Hitchens.

There are TWO unfinished Civil Rights Issues remaining in the USofA, LBGT Rights and the rights of Atheists.

Iflyfishandmyrodcomfortsme

Ken Bondy - 2-1-2013 at 01:16 PM

Iflyfish I am enormously flattered to be put on the same line with two big heroes, Dawkins and Hitchens. You are way too kind

Iflyfish - 2-1-2013 at 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Iflyfish I am enormously flattered to be put on the same line with two big heroes, Dawkins and Hitchens. You are way too kind

I think you summarized it about as good as I have read it.

Carpe Yellowtail and Salmon too! :light:

Iflyfishgodlessandbarbless

[Edited on 2-1-2013 by Iflyfish]

Ken Bondy - 2-1-2013 at 04:10 PM

"godless and barbless"
Priceless!!

Skipjack Joe - 2-1-2013 at 07:51 PM

Boy, you guys sure know how to push Ken Bondy's buttons.

But as to who is more discriminated, gays or atheists. My guess is that atheists will be accepted before gays. In fact it's happening in much of the world.

As for Obama being a closet atheist. I don't think he considers himself to be one. As I see it atheists define believers to be basically fundamentalists and everyone else falls into the category of 'closet atheists'. It's not black and white like that.

Atheists like to have the freedom to augment their beliefs as new information is uncovered. But they don't want to give believers the same right and so judge them on 'bronze age' beliefs. Evolution comes forth in history, but you are labeled a closet atheist if you stop believing in 7day creationism.

This whole thing about acceptance reminds me of that main character, Tevye, in Fiddler on the Roof who tells his daughter:

"Like the Good Book says - 'Each shall seek his own kind'. In other words, a bird may love a fish, but where would they build a home together? "

Islandbuilder - 2-1-2013 at 10:12 PM

As a species, humans have several critical short comings. We ALL suffer from periodic outbreaks of greed, lust, laziness, selfishness and hatred. We know this is true because we can easily see these failures in people we don't care for. Of course, they see the same weaknesses in us.
We put a great deal of energy into shifting and re-weighing "facts" that prove that our group (and therefore, we as individuals) are better than that other group. We ignor or excuse our groups failures, and enlarge those of that other group.
It doesn't matter what your group is, or who the others might be.
This is what has brought us historic and contemporary bigotries, sexism, racism, religious strife and every war since the beginning of our time on this planet.
As long as we accept that lies that the powerful hand us; that "we", and it doesn't matter who "we" are, are superior to "them", and it doesn't matter who "they" are, and allow ourselves to be pitted against one another based on some arbitrary and superficial criteria, we will NEVER have peace, or be able to climb past our constant bickering.
We need to get over ourselves, and our need to be right. Because in our "rightness" we are totally wrong.
A bit of humility, self-awareness, and forgiveness will go a very long way to move us along.
I have to give myself this talk regularly, and I still do and say stuff that I regret.

bajadogs - 2-1-2013 at 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Atheists like to have the freedom to augment their beliefs as new information is uncovered. But they don't want to give believers the same right and so judge them on 'bronze age' beliefs."

Quote:

Yes, I like that freedom. I wish more people understood that freedom to grow and learn.

Back to the topic-

I've been watching this thread because it hits home for reasons that are nobody's business. Thank you Doug for not throwing this into the gutter when the old bigots flashed their colors.

I think it would be cool if the gays and lesbians who use "nomads" could openly participate and share their experiences. Has there been an openly gay "Nomad"? A new perspective would put us beyond the bronze age. And the old bigots will be gone not soon enough.

edit italics error

[Edited on 2-2-2013 by bajadogs]

redhilltown - 2-2-2013 at 01:01 AM

Interesting thread...and for the most part pretty respectful outside of Bill M's marooonic grade school humor...Bill: take a good look at yourself in the mirror after a shower, you are SOOOO safe from the gay masses.

But I gotta say for a country that has basically been run by the Catholic church for oh...say...HUNDREDS of years, there are plenty of homosexuals in Mexico and they have been there from the very very very first days.

Ateo - 2-2-2013 at 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajadogs

Back to the topic-

I've been watching this thread because it hits home for reasons that are nobody's business. Thank you Doug for not throwing this into the gutter when the old bigots flashed their colors.

I think it would be cool if the gays and lesbians who use "nomads" could openly participate and share their experiences. Has there been an openly gay "Nomad"? A new perspective would put us beyond the bronze age. And the old bigots will be gone not soon enough.

edit italics error

[Edited on 2-2-2013 by bajadogs]

Yes, Thanks Doug for not throwing it into the OT.

There are 8000 Baja Nomad "Members". Surely several hundred are gay/lesbian, and the lack of them being "out" proves the point of this thread that homosexuals are discriminated against, bullied and often face physical threats.

What gay Nomad would want to deal with the likes of (insert bigoted Nomad name) on a day to day basis? It's bad enough as it is!!!!! This is probably what (insert bigoted Nomad name) likes to do to homosexuals -- keep them in the closet -- so he doesn't have to change his lazy, rigid views.

Peace, love and fish tacos everyone. I'm headed to Anza Borrego.....

Ateo - 2-2-2013 at 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by redhilltown
Interesting thread...and for the most part pretty respectful outside of Bill M's marooonic grade school humor...Bill: take a good look at yourself in the mirror after a shower, you are SOOOO safe from the gay masses.

But I gotta say for a country that has basically been run by the Catholic church for oh...say...HUNDREDS of years, there are plenty of homosexuals in Mexico and they have been there from the very very very first days.

Exactamante!! Many may even be in the hierarchy of the church!!

Ateo - 2-2-2013 at 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Islandbuilder
As a species, humans have several critical short comings. We ALL suffer from periodic outbreaks of greed, lust, laziness, selfishness and hatred. We know this is true because we can easily see these failures in people we don't care for. Of course, they see the same weaknesses in us.
We put a great deal of energy into shifting and re-weighing "facts" that prove that our group (and therefore, we as individuals) are better than that other group. We ignor or excuse our groups failures, and enlarge those of that other group.
It doesn't matter what your group is, or who the others might be.
This is what has brought us historic and contemporary bigotries, sexism, racism, religious strife and every war since the beginning of our time on this planet.
As long as we accept that lies that the powerful hand us; that "we", and it doesn't matter who "we" are, are superior to "them", and it doesn't matter who "they" are, and allow ourselves to be pitted against one another based on some arbitrary and superficial criteria, we will NEVER have peace, or be able to climb past our constant bickering.
We need to get over ourselves, and our need to be right. Because in our "rightness" we are totally wrong.
A bit of humility, self-awareness, and forgiveness will go a very long way to move us along.
I have to give myself this talk regularly, and I still do and say stuff that I regret.

We are a very tribal species. Totally agree with "a bit of humility, self awareness, and forgiveness goes a long way".

I think you may agree with this quote:

Have you ever noticed that anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?
- George Carlin

shari - 2-2-2013 at 09:34 AM

Quote:

I too thank Doug for allowing this discussion....and very much agree with Islandbuilder's quote...I particularly love the part about getting over ourselves and in our need to be RIGHT, we are totally wrong! a real thought provoking idea all right!

and an astute observation that our own Nomad family gays are not willing to risk the bullying and silliness that coming out would provoke....perhaps a topic for this morning's shrimp taco service?

Islandbuilder - 2-2-2013 at 09:44 AM

Ateo, Carlin covered everything I rambled on and on about in a sentence. He was a genious!

Shari, I'm willing to have a long reasoned conversation about ANYTHING, as long as the shrimp tacos hold out. :bounce:

Iflyfish - 2-2-2013 at 09:57 AM

I am all in with shrimp tacos and a large dose of humility.

Good news on the topic of this thread. Looks like GSAs will have a new benefactor! This is good news for those who are interested in creating peace and understanding among minorities.

Thanks for the very helpful input provided by thoughtful Nomads.

Is it any wonder that Nomads would eventually focus on Gays, God and Guns! Wait, the gun posts haven't yet begun. Another thread around the Nomad campfire.

Gracias amigos

Iflyfishcomminamadamigos

DENNIS - 2-2-2013 at 10:01 AM

Is there a difference, from a social perspective, between being Gay, and being Homosexual? I mean, is there a distinguishable connotation that seperates the two?
Prison behavior comes to mind as I ask this question, and although the sexual activities of some prisoners would probably be classified as "homosexual" in nature, to me it would seem inappropriate to refer to them as "Gay."

.

[Edited on 2-2-2013 by DENNIS]

durrelllrobert - 2-2-2013 at 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Islandbuilder
I became sensitized to the use of "De-Evolution" in college in 1970. The campus had the typical population cross section of the time; hippies, vets fresh from Viet Nam, and a scattering of red necks and preppies.
In my Bio class a very buttoned down type was trying to insult us hippies by suggesting that because we had a lot of hair (ahhhhh, how I miss hair) that perhaps it was a symptom of de-evolution.
The professor, a buttoned down fellow himself, was pretty emphatic making the point that evolution only goes forward, even if forward means to re-visit an earlier adaptation.

The old cradle-to-grave V. erection-to-resurection philosopy?

DianaT - 2-2-2013 at 10:08 AM

I finally read this thread --- I avoided it because similar threads in the past have ended up with lots of gay bashing, and yes, there are members of this forum who have pretty well quit posting here.

I just always go back to the musical, South Pacific and the song, You Have To Be Carefully Taught. They were way a head of their times, and oh so correct.

Only when we quit identifying people by labels and stop defining who they are by their sexual orientation or ethnicity, all of this will it no longer be a topic for conversation; and that will be a good thing.

I enjoy a good conversation about religion of any kind. The US was founded as a secular nation, so it is unbelievable how much that is distorted today and how much tolerance has become a fading idea. JMHO --- back to just lurking around the edges of this one.

[Edited on 2-2-2013 by DianaT]

durrelllrobert - 2-2-2013 at 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Boy, you guys sure know how to push Ken Bondy's buttons.

But as to who is more discriminated, gays or atheists. My guess is that atheists will be accepted before gays. In fact it's happening in much of the world.

As for Obama being a closet atheist. I don't think he considers himself to be one. As I see it atheists define believers to be basically fundamentalists and everyone else falls into the category of 'closet atheists'. It's not black and white like that.

Atheists like to have the freedom to augment their beliefs as new information is uncovered. But they don't want to give believers the same right and so judge them on 'bronze age' beliefs. Evolution comes forth in history, but you are labeled a closet atheist if you stop believing in 7day creationism.

This whole thing about acceptance reminds me of that main character, Tevye, in Fiddler on the Roof who tells his daughter:

"Like the Good Book says - 'Each shall seek his own kind'. In other words, a bird may love a fish, but where would they build a home together? "

Am I an atheist if I don't believe that Mary was nailed by a "holy" ghost and remained a virgin?

Skipjack Joe - 2-2-2013 at 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by durrelllrobert

Quote:

Am I an atheist if I don't believe that Mary was nailed by a "holy" ghost and remained a virgin?

The foulest of atheists
.
.
.
.
.
And you will roast in hell for it.

Well .................

MrBillM - 2-2-2013 at 01:09 PM

IF you don't accept the "Virgin-Birth" and Resurrection of Jesus Christ, you certainly AREN'T a Christian.

On the udder hand (as a Dago might say), THAT doesn't make you an Atheist.

More importantly, it doesn't make you Queer, either.

A little Odd to some, maybe.

[Edited on 2-2-2013 by MrBillM]

DENNIS - 2-2-2013 at 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
I too thank Doug for allowing this discussion....

"Allowing this discussion?" Baja was part of the original post and mentioned throughout the thread.
It would be political suicide to disallow it.

Just my opinion, Toots.
How's life treating you down there? :biggrin:

Ateo - 2-2-2013 at 08:24 PM

Since we're talking that filthy A word again:

Don't forget, everyone in this thread is an atheist in regards to most gods. I bet Bill M is an atheist in regards to Allah, Buddah, Vishnu and Thor.

Some of us believe in one of the thousands of gods posited, and some of us go one step further and drop the god most popular in the geographic location that we were born into.............=)

DENNIS - 2-2-2013 at 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ateo
Some of us believe in one of the thousands of gods posited

Arn't they all the same God with different names?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoYsfbq3vMc

CORRECTLY Speaking

MrBillM - 2-2-2013 at 09:36 PM

An Atheist would be a non-believer in ANY God.

One who BELIEVES in a God or Gods would be a Theist.

Monotheist believing in a Single God.

Polytheist if multiple.

Throw in the Agnostic who doesn't know WHAT to think.

Try and get it right.

Literacy is NOT that difficult.

Or Queer.

bajadogs - 2-2-2013 at 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Ateo
Some of us believe in one of the thousands of gods posited

Arn't they all the same God with different names?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qoYsfbq3vMc

Good luck convincing your neighbors to praise ALLAH! since they are all the same. I feel sorry for anyone who clings to invisible friends.

Iflyfish - 2-2-2013 at 09:45 PM

One could posit that an atheist is the other side of the theism coin. Both posit belief in relation to god. An agnostic says you can't know if there is a god, there is no way of proving it. Not all humans have this particular rock in their shoe, probably from some developmental experience. I had the rock and worked it over pretty good till I decided that we make up our gods to help us understand that which we cannot understand, started with physical phenomenon, Lightning, Thunder, death etc. and all of these things were given names and called gods or goddesses. Children too have imaginary friends, particularly if they are lonely. Our mind is a marvelous thing indeed.

Since this whole religion business is a Projective Test then I think we cannot separate our theology from our psychology. Rigid adaptation strategy toward life, rigid, fundamentalist, literalistic religion, pick your religion and mistake the connotation for the denotation. Have a more relaxed adaptation toward life and you have a more metaphorical understanding of these things. Human values are not dependent upon religion but upon personal psychology that may be INFORMED by religion as well as life experiences.

There are also those people when asked about how one becomes enlightened say "Whose asking" or "Have you had your lunch, if so go wash your bowl". The "Whose asking one will get you into some very interesting domains indeed.

Iflyfishwithoutanimaginaryfriendandcatchfishtoo

DENNIS - 2-2-2013 at 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajadogs
Good luck convincing your neighbors to praise ALLAH! since they are all the same. I feel sorry for anyone who clings to invisible friends.

Aside from the historical fact that there's an Arab influence in Mexico, brought over from Spain, I always figuered the "One God, many names" idea was a good way to keep everybody from bickering over the idea of, "One and Only God."
Some Muslims will, of course, disagree.

I also find it of moderate interest that the Christian God has no name that I'm aware of. His son does, but he/she doesn't. I guess when you're the only One, you don't need a name.

His Name ?

MrBillM - 2-2-2013 at 10:23 PM

YHWH.

DENNIS - 2-3-2013 at 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
YHWH.

Do I have to buy a vowel?

Ken Bondy - 2-3-2013 at 01:07 PM

I think the abrahamic god is too busy today figuring out the Super Bowl. So anyone who needs supernatural help from sky fairies should look to zeus.

DENNIS - 2-3-2013 at 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
So anyone who needs supernatural help from sky fairies should look to zeus.

That must be it. I'll do it like they do it down here...."Hey Zeus."

Skipjack Joe - 2-3-2013 at 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
YHWH.

Do I have to buy a vowel?

That's all we need, Vanna White's contribution. We're confused enough as it is.

How old is she anyway? The years have been good to her.

"Hey, Zeus. Oh, hey, Zeus" - staying on the subject of the thread.

[Edited on 2-3-2013 by Skipjack Joe]

Beware of Greeks Buying Vowels............

MrBillM - 2-3-2013 at 07:44 PM

From the Hebrews ?

In Latin ?

Given the limited RAM and simplistic Word-Processing Software of those BC PCs and Printers along with the high-cost of Ink Cartridges and Paper, there was a tendency to conserve character usage.

I'm told that it was carried to the point of even using semi-colons in place of colons.

I may be wrong on that last one, though.

Iflyfish - 2-4-2013 at 11:32 AM

Interesting site related to the end of this thread.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/The-Thinking-Atheist/30220162...

Iflyfish

New Evidence for Genes that may predict sexual preferences and homosexuality

EnsenadaDr - 2-10-2013 at 04:19 PM

http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1112746818/homosexual-ep...

Ateo - 2-10-2013 at 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by EnsenadaDr
http://www.redorbit.com/news/health/1112746818/homosexual-ep...

Interesting. Thanks for posting Dr.

Pages: 1 2