BajaNomad - EL NIÑO/SOUTHERN OSCILLATION (ENSO) DIAGNOSTIC DISCUSSION

EL NIÑO/SOUTHERN OSCILLATION (ENSO) DIAGNOSTIC DISCUSSION

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DianaT - 3-13-2014 at 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Thanks for your time Steve... facts are good.

and if the facts are inconvenient truths, then declare them lies :lol:

climate scientists that disagree with my politics are obviously liars!

Man caused global climate change or man able to fix climate change is the LIE.

Weather changes, always has and always will. Warming trends are followed by a cooling trend... draught is followed by rain... it really IS that simple. Learn to live with what earth is, a dynamic, wild and also peaceful planet. Taking money from working people to pretend to fix something that can't be fixed, nor is even broke is just sad.

[Edited on 3-13-2014 by David K]

Question for you DK

Do any of the following activities of human beings affect weather and or climate?

Urbanization
Large scale agricultural activity
De-forestation

BajaLuna - 3-13-2014 at 03:45 PM

I don't buy the notion that someone who does not live on land cannot grow a garden. People (and many of my friends as well) are doing it every day all over the world in very small spaces. There is a HUGE small space food growing movement going on! You don't need land to grow food nor do you need a lot of space...just about any veggie can be grown in a container/pot. Grow varities that grow verticle! Many do it on their apartment patios and balconies! And although pots can get expensive, get creative...take apart free pallets and build a crate, use buckets (7-11 up here sells them for a buck!), use old dresser drawers! A pack of seeds is cheap and can grow a lot of food.

BarryA....that is so cool that you grow too! We have a harbor freight greenhouse as well, although we don't heat ours in the winter, just too expensive and hubby shot down the idea of putting a wood stove in there (gee I wonder why LOL), but I do grow cool weather crops in there in the winter...kale, chard, spinach etc. and also grow Fall sown crops outdoors in the winter under cloches. I keep my root veggies in the ground all winter long since I don't have a root cellar and when I haven't had time to can them, nothing tastes as sweet as a carrot dug out from under the snow! Can't wait to install an automatic watering system in the greenhouse here in the next month! I hear ya...Life sure has changed for us, we can now travel in the peak of summer...whereas before we were never able to leave our garden during summer or we just couldn't plant a garden that year if we had to travel in summer...now with the automatic watering system in our main outside garden..we can travel in the summer and come home to veggies ready to pick!

And one certainly doesn't need a greenhouse to grow in colder climates, build a cheap hoop house no matter what size, or grow under cloches, build a cold frame, and eat in season! In the Winter, my entire kitchen and dining room is filled with racks of seedlings under grow lights and seedlings on the window sills too! Hundreds of babies! It's all doable, if one really wants to grow their own food no matter the space you have or what climate you live in, you can find a way!

Yeah, this thread veered off course (sorry!)...yet really water, climate change, and food go together and their issues are all interconnected everywhere. But yeah, high-jacked for sure (guilty!).

I wish BN had a gardening/self sustainable living forum...I would love to hear what people are doing in Baja to live more self-sustainable, rain catchment systems etc and it would be great to learn more about growing food and ornamentals in Baja from all of you and your triumphs and trials as well! I have so much to learn about growing in Baja! It's very exciting!

Diane, you are so spot on!

BarryA: farmers up here in Western WA. get one crop of hay, and in Eastern WA. they get 2 crops.

have a great day everyone, be well be happy!

rts551 - 3-13-2014 at 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Thanks for your time Steve... facts are good.

and if the facts are inconvenient truths, then declare them lies :lol:

climate scientists that disagree with my politics are obviously liars!

Just how much money is taken from the working people? (that is assuming they are working). How do you stratify the working vs non-working people? And are you suggesting that the efforts to curb pollution, promote energy efficiency, and explore man's effect on nature should be abandoned?

BajaLuna - 3-13-2014 at 04:06 PM

years ago when I lived in CV/SD, we had mandatory water rationing. We had to water on even or odd days according to one's address. Is that still going on in San Diego?

wessongroup - 3-13-2014 at 05:19 PM

Agree with growing in small areas ... have been using square foot gardening ... works well

Would like to add in some different plants, but, having a very hard time finding "Bacon Seeds"

Any help would be greatly appreciated :biggrin:

elgatoloco - 3-13-2014 at 06:38 PM

"Volcanoes emit CO2 both on land and underwater. Underwater volcanoes emit between 66 to 97 million tonnes of CO2 per year. However, this is balanced by the carbon sink provided by newly formed ocean floor lava. Consequently, underwater volcanoes have little effect on atmospheric CO2 levels. The greater contribution comes from subaerial volcanoes (subaerial means "under the air", refering to land volcanoes). Subaerial volcanoes are estimated to emit 242 million tonnes of CO2 per year (Morner 2002).

In contrast, humans are currently emiting around 29 billion tonnes of CO2 per year (EIA). Human CO2 emissions are over 100 times greater than volcanic CO2 emissions. This is apparent when comparing atmospheric CO2 levels to volcanic activity since 1960. Even strong volcanic eruptions such as Pinatubo, El Chicon and Agung had little discernable impact on CO2 levels. In fact, the rate of change of CO2 levels actually drops slightly after a volcanic eruption, possibly due to the cooling effect of aerosols."

Whale-ista - 3-13-2014 at 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaLuna
years ago when I lived in CV/SD, we had mandatory water rationing. We had to water on even or odd days according to one's address. Is that still going on in San Diego?

No mandatory water restrictions. But they are providing rebates for installing rainwater harvesting equipment, and removal of turf from front yards to reduce water use for landscaping.

I have 2-200 gallon rainwater barrels, and lots of trash cans I fill up after storms to use on potted plants. They prefer rain vs. tap water. However I purchased them before the rebates

BN Gardening forum would be great

Whale-ista - 3-13-2014 at 07:02 PM

I've suggested this before. Happy to answer questions regarding:composting, organic gardening etc.

I currently harvest lots of oranges, but lack of sunlight makes other trees difficult. One reason I'm looking forward to a new yard in Baja with more light.

chippy - 3-13-2014 at 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Thanks for your time Steve... facts are good.

and if the facts are inconvenient truths, then declare them lies :lol:

climate scientists that disagree with my politics are obviously liars!

For somebody who is always correcting the spanish spelling of places in baja your english spelling is horrible. Draught?

Why are you the mouth peice of the right? Their economics have not served you well. You are lower middle class uneducated and drive on cheap ass pep boys tires.

Your ignorant political agenda gets old. Change is good! Its not too late. :lol:

Skipjack Joe - 3-13-2014 at 10:29 PM

BajaLuna and Diane: Thank you for reminding me that water is only half of the process of photosynthesis. The other being sunlight. There is definitely less of it in the pacific northwest. It rained every day and there was only brief periods of sunlight. So you have sun in one area and water in another. And everyone wants to live in sunny climates. Our Central Valley gets a ton a sunlight and the towering Sierras are right next door to provide all the water we need. Sounds like a winning formula ... until global warming turned off the tap.

BTW, I can understand why San Diegans know little about Imperial Valley. I've seen it and was unimpressed.

The idea of growing your own fruits and veggies is very attractive to me and I intend to do that after retirement. I still feel that it is impractical as a significant source of food for most people but a good 'hobby' after retirement. There are numerous models about food acreage required to sustain an individual and a backyard in LA or planter boxes is not going to do it. Then there is the practical side of it: who wants to put in 8 hours at the office, spend 2 hours commuting, and then come home and tend his/her garden? ... before meal preparation. Many of us don't even have the time and energy to cook and just go out to eat.

David K - 3-13-2014 at 11:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaLuna
years ago when I lived in CV/SD, we had mandatory water rationing. We had to water on even or odd days according to one's address. Is that still going on in San Diego?

No, because the drought is not severe here... our local water supply is fine and because of conservation through smarter watering methods and low flow toilets, etc. we don't need to go on odd/even or selected days to irrigate. I am happy to report drip and low volume irrigation and smart controllers do work, and when installed and operated correctly reduce water use and maintain property value and beauty (and give us oxygen).

Again, the crisis is largely political... rain will come... but they want more dollars, now.

David K - 3-13-2014 at 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chippy

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
Thanks for your time Steve... facts are good.

and if the facts are inconvenient truths, then declare them lies :lol:

climate scientists that disagree with my politics are obviously liars!

For somebody who is always correcting the spanish spelling of places in baja your english spelling is horrible. Draught?

Why are you the mouth peice of the right? Their economics have not served you well. You are lower middle class uneducated and drive on cheap burro pep boys tires.

Your ignorant political agenda gets old. Change is good! Its not too late. :lol:

I don't correct anything more than place name spelling. I always have admitted to be a poor speller, but you are new here so maybe never read those posts by me? English and Baja needs to always be capitalized, by-the-way. Thanks for the heads up on draught vs. drought (my auto correct didn't catch it nor did I). I will have a draught beer to quench the drought in my mouth... the place down the street from where I live has Pacifico (and Dos Equis) on tap! :bounce:

bajaemma - 3-14-2014 at 05:37 AM

Is this thread ending in a bar? Sometimes Pacifico can do that

Bajaboy - 3-14-2014 at 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaLuna
years ago when I lived in CV/SD, we had mandatory water rationing. We had to water on even or odd days according to one's address. Is that still going on in San Diego?

You are clueless to say the drought is not severe :?:

bonanza bucko - 3-14-2014 at 06:44 AM

Every time I get lectured by somebody who touts man caused climate change I ask them if they can find the Great Lakes on a map. Some can believe it or not!

Then I ask What dug 'em?
GLACIERS!
right!
WHERE ARE THEY NOW?
Melted. Wow!
WHAT CAUSED THAT?
GLOBAL WARMING!!!!
So what caused that?
Probably Cave men barbecuing too many Mastodons or maybe some Sabre toothed tigers had a bad attack of flatulence.
"Recon so...but I don't know"

BB:-)

rts551 - 3-14-2014 at 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaLuna
years ago when I lived in CV/SD, we had mandatory water rationing. We had to water on even or odd days according to one's address. Is that still going on in San Diego?

Local water supplies? Do you know where your water comes from?

rts551 - 3-14-2014 at 07:43 AM

San DiegoCoastkeeper.org:

San Diego’s limited amount of rainfall, in addition to other local sources, only accounts for about 20% of its water supply. (Local supply includes surface water, or lakes and streams; groundwater; recycled water, also known as 'purple pipe'; and conservation.) The other 80% must be imported.

DianaT - 3-14-2014 at 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaLuna
years ago when I lived in CV/SD, we had mandatory water rationing. We had to water on even or odd days according to one's address. Is that still going on in San Diego?

Okay, I want to make sure I FULLY understand what you are saying --

1. Where is this local supply for San Diego? Where does your water come from?

2. The Emergency Drought situation and proclamation are not real or needed, they are largely political because some "they" wants more money? Correct? Who is getting what money?

According to the map in THIS ARTICLE you are partially correct as San Diego is listed as moderate drought whereas the majority of California is Severe drought. Please notice the beautiful picture of Florence Lake. But do you think that the EXTREME drought conditions elsewhere do not affect San Diego?

Do you think that the state should just wait for the rain and take no official action?

You never answered these questions. Do you think that the following activities of man can affect weather and climate?

Urbanization
Large Scale Agriculture
Deforestation

BTW-- someone mentioned the Great Lakes that were created by melting glaciers and yes they were, and the activities of human beings killed them and are working on killing them again.

[Edited on 3-14-2014 by DianaT]

David K - 3-14-2014 at 08:50 AM

A spokesperson from the San Diego Water Authority is who said what I posted. It was on the local news. No water restrictions yet because our local sources are fine.

Barry A. - 3-14-2014 at 09:09 AM

Posted by DianaT above: "BTW-- someone mentioned the Great Lakes that were created by melting glaciers and yes they were, and the activities of human beings killed them and are working on killing them again. "

Seriously, Please explain this statement.

I always thought the Great Lakes were created by active Glaciers grinding out depressions in the Earth's surface during an Ice Age. And, they were/are being filled and sustained by rain and snow via rivers (like Lake Tahoe).

You say they were "killed" by man, and now they are being "killed" again?????

No comprende.

Barry

Skipjack Joe - 3-14-2014 at 09:13 AM

I suspect Detroit didn't help that water quality very much.

Tahoe is having water quality issues as well, BTW.

Barry A. - 3-14-2014 at 09:19 AM

DianaT posted above the following:

"Do you think that the state should just wait for the rain and take no official action?

You never answered these questions. Do you think that the following activities of man can affect weather and climate?

Urbanization
Large Scale Agriculture
Deforestation"

I am not David K. but I will take a crack at the answers:

Prefaced by "IMO"-------

Yes, the State should NOT take any official action at this time other than their proclamations, which are proper.

NO, The activities of man that you listed above do NOT cause "climate change", and only extremely minimally and locally effect "weather" and even that is debatable..

Barry

Barry A. - 3-14-2014 at 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I suspect Detroit didn't help that water quality very much.

Tahoe is having water quality issues as well, BTW.

Very true, but I am not at all sure that is what DianaT is talking about. Did primitive man "kill" the Great Lakes"?----I had not heard that. And now modern man is doing it again? Is that her point, and if so just how did primitive man effect the Great Lakes? and what defines "killed"?

The Great Lakes were being polluted by modern man, but that is being largely rectified now, from what I understand. Lake Tahoe's problems are also being rectified, and the lake's clarity is improving. We go there often, and it looks better to me tho I did not think it was that bad in the first place. Lake Tahoe is unique, and largely a nearly-closed water-system with relatively little runoff, either in or out, and therefore somewhat fragile---------the Great Lakes are very dynamic due to the huge volume of water involved, flowing in and out.

It is obvious to me that Government and Industries intervention in the increasing polution of the waters by man was necessary at both places, I will admit. I just think that DianaT exagerated things a bit, never a good idea, IMO, as it erodes credibility.

Barry

Lake Morena drawn down, as San Diego faces water shortage

Whale-ista - 3-14-2014 at 10:17 AM

the city of San Diego began draining water from lake Morena this year to supplement dwindling reserves.

This is a concern to residents and fishermen, as this article reports. The lake has lost 55% of its water, and a major fish kill is likely this summer.

Low lake levels are happening all over California. Many "lakes" are actually human-designed water reservoirs, designed to hold water for municipal uses. But was the drought continues, we see the cupboard is almost bare...

monoloco - 3-14-2014 at 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
DianaT posted above the following:

"Do you think that the state should just wait for the rain and take no official action?

You never answered these questions. Do you think that the following activities of man can affect weather and climate?

Urbanization
Large Scale Agriculture
Deforestation"

I am not David K. but I will take a crack at the answers:

Prefaced by "IMO"-------

Yes, the State should NOT take any official action at this time other than their proclamations, which are proper.

NO, The activities of man that you listed above do NOT cause "climate change", and only extremely minimally and locally effect "weather" and even that is debatable..

Barry

As a wise outdoorsman, you have the same answer as I would have posted.

Volcanoes destroy rain forests & pine forests all the time (Hawaii, Central America, Indonesia, Mt. St. Helens, etc.)... Did the climate change in Washington enough that could be noticed, in the years after the eruption?

Do I like that the Brazilians (whom Obama loves and sends billions to) are mowing down some of the Amazon? Not at all. Do you? Is it okay to not be environmentally concerned in the rest of the world, and only stifle activity in our country?

Why are we supporting Brazilian oil production (which is destroying the rain forests) instead of extracting our own oil that we are 'floating on', here?!

Thank God that so much of North Dakota is in private ownership so the Obama government can't stop some of America from ending dependency! America has suffered long enough... Let's not self destruct like what France is trying to do to itself: http://www.cbn.com/tv/3255110732001

Since you ascribe so much power to Obama, maybe you should be giving him credit for the fact that domestic oil and gas production has risen significantly since he was elected. Most of the oil exploration in Brazil is offshore. How does that destroy the rainforest?

Mexitron - 3-14-2014 at 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bonanza bucko
Every time I get lectured by somebody who touts man caused climate change I ask them if they can find the Great Lakes on a map. Some can believe it or not!

Then I ask What dug 'em?
GLACIERS!
right!
WHERE ARE THEY NOW?
Melted. Wow!
WHAT CAUSED THAT?
GLOBAL WARMING!!!!
So what caused that?
Probably Cave men barbecuing too many Mastodons or maybe some Sabre toothed tigers had a bad attack of flatulence.
"Recon so...but I don't know"

BB:-)

Ice ages have been advancing and retreating long before man was a twinkle in a gorilla's ancestor's eye---the basic force behind this is the Earth's slight wobble over a 120,000 yr cycle (correct me if I don't have that number exactly). There is widespread agreement that temps are increasing a bit, on average, however we are nearing the zenith of the interglacial period so warmer temps are normal. The last interglacial period peak sea levels were 8 feet higher than now and there was more CO2. As far as I can tell, beyond the politics and hysteria of climate change, scientists are trying to figure if we are accelerating this upswing, and if we are then we risk breeching the thermal and chemical buffers that would naturally keep us in the normal glacial cycle.

Bajaboy - 3-14-2014 at 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whale-ista
the city of San Diego began draining water from lake Morena this year to supplement dwindling reserves.

This is a concern to residents and fishermen, as this article reports. The lake has lost 55% of its water, and a major fish kill is likely this summer.

Low lake levels are happening all over California. Many "lakes" are actually human-designed water reservoirs, designed to hold water for municipal uses. But was the drought continues, we see the cupboard is almost bare...

The article I posted a while back was very interesting. It talks about the fact that California would be far worse off from the drought if it still relied on hydro electricity as so many of the lakes are down. It says the move to clean energy is one of the key reasons.

Whale-ista - 3-14-2014 at 10:49 AM

I totally agree that climate change has happened since the planet was formed (anyone watching "Cosmos" on TV?) long before humans were around to contribute to it, or worry about it.

The "Middle Age Warming" event was good for people- they were growing grapes in England, and Greenland was settled. One hundred years later the cold climate returned, the grapes died, and people abandoned the Greenland settlements or froze to death.

Easy choices, and not a lot of humans around on the planet to be impacted or take detailed, science-based notes about what happened. They were more worried about plague, inquisitions etc.

What has changed since then is the scale and scope human activity that exacerbates the effect. Also, the fact humans have constructed cities, roads, housing, etc. based on certain temperature/climate/weather assumptions: sea/lake levels, storm intensity/duration/seasonality, availability of food, average temperature variation.

We harvest fish from the seas based on assumptions about productivity that fluctuate over time. Add industrial-scale human harvesting and the lows get lower, leading to fishing quotas.

We grow crops based on assumptions about rainfall/pollinators being readily available. As bees disappear and the rainfall declines, farms fail and drought restrictions are implemented.

We raise livestock believing there will always be plenty of grazing land with available grass/water to feed them. The price of beef has collapsed and ranchers can't afford to feed their cattle.

We build airports and design airplanes with certain meteorological ranges in mind. The heat in Phoenix results in the airport closing during the afternoon in the summer months, cancelling flights or diverting them to other airports.

Adjust, adapt, move on. Just don't deny what's happening or argue about what's causing it. Make plans to manage the changes- add rainwater harvesting to building designs. Rely more on solar/renewables and less on fuels that are more difficult to manage/obtain,

I completely agree that what we are seeing is "natural" and has happened many, many times before. The difference is: what happens now has an impact on human design on a scale not experienced before, and causes expensive and at times dangerous situations to occur.

So, IMHO, it doesn't matter why this is happening, but it makes sense to plan accordingly to avoid expensive/dangerous situations from harming people as we go forward.

Barry A. - 3-14-2014 at 10:53 AM

Quote:

All the lakes of San Diego County, and SoCal in general, have a long history of this (and worse) happening-------drought & flood in SoCal is the rule, not the exception. Tis the nature of the place.

http://www.wonews.com/Blog.aspx?id=743

http://www.sandiegohistory.org/journal/2002-1/hill.htm

Barry

Draught Surplus Ends Drought (Until Start Of La Cruda)

DavidE - 3-14-2014 at 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajaemma
Is this thread ending in a bar? Sometimes Pacifico can do that

Rather than be a hypocrite my property is Michoacan is a jungle of planted flower, fruit trees, and shrubs. Here in BA even though I am here a short while I have with the permission of the owner planted drought resistant trees, and shrubs. I would hate to think I engaged in talk about CO2, global warming, and climate change while holding a TV remote control in one hand and a beer in the other. I wonder whom has actually participated in such activities? Not landscaping done eight years ago - I mean recently.

mtgoat666 - 3-14-2014 at 10:58 AM

clearly, people that dispute the evidence that man's GHG emissions have affected climate are ignorant, delusional, or purposefully denying the evidence for political reasons. you can't have a reasonable discussion about policy on GHG emissions with people that believe the evidence and cause/effect are a pack of lies.

Barry A. - 3-14-2014 at 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whale-ista
I totally agree that climate change has happened since the planet was formed (anyone watching "Cosmos" on TV?) long before humans were around to contribute to it, or worry about it.

The "Middle Age Warming" event was good for people- they were growing grapes in England, and Greenland was settled. One hundred years later the cold climate returned, the grapes died, and people abandoned the Greenland settlements or froze to death.

Easy choices, and not a lot of humans around on the planet to be impacted or take detailed, science-based notes about what happened. They were more worried about plague, inquisitions etc.

What has changed since then is the scale and scope human activity that exacerbates the effect. Also, the fact humans have constructed cities, roads, housing, etc. based on certain temperature/climate/weather assumptions: sea/lake levels, storm intensity/duration/seasonality, availability of food, average temperature variation.

We harvest fish from the seas based on assumptions about productivity that fluctuate over time. Add industrial-scale human harvesting and the lows get lower, leading to fishing quotas.

We grow crops based on assumptions about rainfall/pollinators being readily available. As bees disappear and the rainfall declines, farms fail and drought restrictions are implemented.

We raise livestock believing there will always be plenty of grazing land with available grass/water to feed them. The price of beef has collapsed and ranchers can't afford to feed their cattle.

We build airports and design airplanes with certain meteorological ranges in mind. The heat in Phoenix results in the airport closing during the afternoon in the summer months, cancelling flights or diverting them to other airports.

Adjust, adapt, move on. Just don't deny what's happening or argue about what's causing it. Make plans to manage the changes- add rainwater harvesting to building designs. Rely more on solar/renewables and less on fuels that are more difficult to manage/obtain,

I completely agree that what we are seeing is "natural" and has happened many, many times before. The difference is: what happens now has an impact on human design on a scale not experienced before, and causes expensive and at times dangerous situations to occur.

So, IMHO, it doesn't matter why this is happening, but it makes sense to plan accordingly to avoid expensive/dangerous situations from harming people as we go forward.

Excellent, Whale-ista, just EXCELLENT. Says it all, IMO.

Barry

DianaT - 3-14-2014 at 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I suspect Detroit didn't help that water quality very much.

Tahoe is having water quality issues as well, BTW.

Who said anything about primitive man????

And as far as the pollution increasing today, you could simply check that out, or you can reduce your answer to a personal attack. That is the end of any attempt at a civil discussion. Ni modo Done

[Edited on 3-14-2014 by DianaT]

BajaLuna - 3-14-2014 at 11:01 AM

WessonGroup: Cool that you SQ FT garden, it's a great method! We do that too in (16) 4x8 raised beds. I'm not an in-the-ground row gardener, got a bad knee!
LOL about the bacon seeds, we often laugh about that, if only we could plant us some bacon! I have enough room for a couple of pigs, but we travel a lot and because of that had to get rid of our goats. If we could get them automatically watered and fed too, LOL, then that would be sweet! Our laying chickens are fine being left alone and only checked on twice a week while we are gone. They don't scarf down their entire food in a few minutes like pigs do! We sometimes trade our veggies, blueberries, and raspberries for meat with friends, who raise organic chickens, rabbits and turkeys.

Trading is where it's at, one does not need to grow everything they eat or every type of veggie they like, just need to get involved in exchanging with other backyard food growers OR get a membership in a CSA (community supported agriculture) program. They are everywhere up here, and we sometimes get our veggies from there as well. Also up here there is a lot of pea patches going on, people who have land open it up to rent some space to people who want to grow a garden! More and more churches are doing that up here on their land. If one wants to grow, they can find a way, there are many options!

Whale-ista: that's good to hear there is rebating going on down there, that really helps people out and promotes conservation! Love what you are doing with rain catching, you GO GIRL! We are putting in a rain catch system at our house this year, although we are on a well that is tapped into a HUGE and powerful aquifer, we still feel passionate about catching all the rain we get, and we get ALOT and it is such a waste not to be using the rain!! I too, am wanting to see a gardening board on BN, learning about growing citrus, fruits and all kinds of things down in Baja would be awesome, although I have grown food for years, do composting too...Baja gardening and growing in the salt air and desert climates is something I am eager to learn!

DavidK: You say there is not currently a water problem in SD, and although I understand you got that from good authority, but who in their right mind believes that load of crap, of course there IS a problem, perhaps it isn't an emergency at this point, but it will be if they keep doing what they've been doing IE: not getting serious about it NOW. It just makes sense to me to prepare for it, Crisis governing is not the answer, and in my mind if they started now with odd/even days for watering then perhaps they can avoid a bigger problem down the road. When we lived there we were not inconvenienced whatsoever with the rationing, my garden still got watered just fine. pee poor planning is not acceptable, they need to get their heads out of the sand and plug into reality! What are they waiting for?

David K - 3-14-2014 at 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron

Quote:

Thank you Steve... have a great day!

David K - 3-14-2014 at 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaLuna

DavidK: You say there is not currently a water problem in SD, and although I understand you got that from good authority, but who in their right mind believes that load of crap, of course there IS a problem, perhaps it isn't an emergency at this point, but it will be if they keep doing what they've been doing IE: not getting serious about it NOW. It just makes sense to me to prepare for it, Crisis governing is not the answer, and in my mind if they started now with odd/even days for watering then perhaps they can avoid a bigger problem down the road. When we lived there we were not inconvenienced whatsoever with the rationing, my garden still got watered just fine. pee poor planning is not acceptable, they need to get their heads out of the sand and plug into reality! What are they waiting for?

I am trying to be clear, but I know we all hear things differently... let me try once more...

It was asked if we here in San Diego area were on restricted water use (odd/ even days).

I answered with what was told to us by the water authority: NO we are not BECAUSE the water sources for us are NOT in that bad of shape (yet).

This is NOT my personal belief, politics or otherwise... It was on the news and answered the question if we were on rationing like a few years ago...

DianaT - 3-14-2014 at 11:16 AM

With Brown and the government making the proclamation and stepping in, it means some financial relief in the form of low interest loans to many farmers who have been hurt.

It has also led to some places putting in mandatory water conservation requirements and other areas doing it on a voluntary basis. Unfortunately, some areas will not restrict the use of water not considering what that does to other parts of the state.

When water considerations become severe enough, cities like Santa Barbara act.

In Brown's proclamation, he talked about it raining again --- there is no money grabbing scheme, just a desire to help out some of those hurting from the drought and MAYBE get people to conserve more and more.

The farmers in the San Quintin valley in Baja only started to conserve and began to use desal water after they depleted the ground water to the point of it becoming far too saline.

Hopefully, prevention will become the wave of the future rather than crisis management.

rts551 - 3-14-2014 at 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

I believe you said local sources. You are no longer disputing that 80% of the water is imported? And generally,,, when someone says something, do you verify that it is factual?

Barry A. - 3-14-2014 at 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I suspect Detroit didn't help that water quality very much.

Tahoe is having water quality issues as well, BTW.

"Personal attack"???????? I apologize if what I said appeared as a "personal attack"------that was not intended. I was simply questioning some of your statements above for clarification, and /or references as I did not understand them.

Barry

David K - 3-14-2014 at 11:21 AM

Then he should let the farmers in the Central Valley have their water back so they can grow food again. Brown has caused that part of the state to turn brown... and for what, a mosquito or bird that can fly somewhere else if it wants to. Nature isn't stupid, but some politicians and the people who elect them are.

David K - 3-14-2014 at 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

I believe you said local sources. You are no longer disputing that 80% of the water is imported? And generally,,, when someone says something, do you verify that it is factual?

wow, I see why the idiots in charge get re-elected sometimes...

RALPH: I repeated what was said on the news. I NEVER disputed anything about where the water comes from. Our San Diego local sources are not stressed to require rationing is what was said... do you hear me amigo???

BajaLuna - 3-14-2014 at 11:28 AM

Exactly Whale-ista....And that's my opinion about all of this argument too...what does it reallllly matter in the grand scheme of things if it is valid or not...we can argue about that until the cows come home but we are loosing the more important message...and that is that we need to prepare..we need to make changes plain and simple...and we need to stick together to make those changes....community togetherness is what will save us! We need to get resourceful, we need to rely on our own ingunity, support our cottage industries, become more self-sufficient, and we need to pull our heads out of the sand and wake up. Nobody is going to save us but ourselves and each other! The people in power aren't looking out for us! As long as they Politicians have theirs, they won't care if you have yours! This is exactly why nothing ever gets done, people are more concerned with being right, trying to prove their argument and in a nutshell being so attached to their "rightness" that it detours us in getting anything done.

hence why I chose not to partake in the discussion in this thread in regards to global warming....it doesn't matter WHY it's happening. Don't get lost in the argument of why it is happening and instead tune into the importance of where we go from here and what each of us can do!

BajaLuna - 3-14-2014 at 11:33 AM

DavidK, I was not implying that YOU agree with the authorities or not, just that it's a load of crap for those in power not to think there is a problem, sorry if I didn't make that clear, not saying you agree with the authorities. You answered my question, just fine!

Barry A. - 3-14-2014 at 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaLuna
Exactly Whale-ista....And that's my opinion about all of this argument too...what does it reallllly matter in the grand scheme of things if it is valid or not...we can argue about that until the cows come home but we are loosing the more important message...and that is that we need to prepare..we need to make changes plain and simple...and we need to stick together to make those changes....community togetherness is what will save us! We need to get resourceful, we need to rely on our own ingunity, support our cottage industries, become more self-sufficient, and we need to pull our heads out of the sand and wake up. Nobody is going to save us but ourselves and each other! The people in power aren't looking out for us! As long as they Politicians have theirs, they won't care if you have yours! This is exactly why nothing ever gets done, people are more concerned with being right, trying to prove their argument and in a nutshell being so attached to their "rightness" that it detours us in getting anything done.

hence why I chose not to partake in the discussion in this thread in regards to global warming....it doesn't matter WHY it's happening. Don't get lost in the argument of why it is happening and instead tune into the importance of where we go from here and what each of us can do!

True, but remember that historically these "climate changes" have taken 100's of thousands to millions of years to happen, so I don't think we want to over-react and disrupt and/or destroy the economies of the world by Govt. edicts and regulations that will cost us a fortune prematurely.

Our individual preparations are GREAT, tho, I agree, and THAT we can do NOW---------!

Barry

David K - 3-14-2014 at 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaLuna
DavidK, I was not implying that YOU agree with the authorities or not, just that it's a load of crap for those in power not to think there is a problem, sorry if I didn't make that clear, not saying you agree with the authorities. You answered my question, just fine!

Thanks... the problem is more human caused and that is not from normal activities, but instead from government creating drama.

Have a great day!

Skipjack Joe - 3-14-2014 at 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whale-ista

I completely agree that what we are seeing is "natural" and has happened many, many times before. The difference is: what happens now has an impact on human design on a scale not experienced before, and causes expensive and at times dangerous situations to occur.

So, IMHO, it doesn't matter why this is happening, but it makes sense to plan accordingly to avoid expensive/dangerous situations from harming people as we go forward.

I really must say something about these statements.

To say that 8 billion people living on this planet have no affect on it's properties is ridiculous. What is "natural' about it? Natural is their absence. Perhaps the definition of 'natural' should be examined. Regardless of that it is completely obvious that that amount of mankind is going to have an imprint.

And to simply accept this and recommend adjusting to the problems that arise is just avoiding (or denying) the causes itself. Another words, to say this is natural feeds right into the argument that they don't exist at all.

wessongroup - 3-14-2014 at 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Thank you

.... and I'm not in charge of anything :lol:

[Edited on 3-14-2014 by wessongroup]

Barry A. - 3-14-2014 at 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

SkipJack---------the "8 billion" are already here, and growing. Nothing seems to be stopping or influencing that other than China's edicts on birth control. Shouldn't we as INDIVIDUALS start doing what we can to mitigate and deal with this growing problem, rather than just pontificate (which I too am guilty of) about it?

barry

wessongroup - 3-14-2014 at 12:00 PM

Some tried Barry, but, it always fell on "deaf ears" ... anyone remember "Zero Population Growth" ....

About the only thing that came out of that ...... small birth numbers of informed people having children ... which ended up being negative overall ... go figure

But, perhaps ... EL NIÑO and other changes in ocean currents will do what "thinking" people can't .... slow the population of the World

Lets see, who's the "Gate Keeper" on this one ... :biggrin:

To bad I'll miss 16 Billion ... should be a real treat

[Edited on 3-14-2014 by wessongroup]

Barry A. - 3-14-2014 at 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by wessongroup
Some tried Barry, but, it always fell on "deaf ears" ... anyone remember "Zero Population Growth" ....

About the only thing that came out of that ...... small birth numbers of informed people having children ... which ended up being negative overall ... go figure

But, perhaps ... EL NIÑO and other changes in ocean currents will do what "thinking" people can't .... slow the population of the World

Lets see, who's the "Gate Keeper" on this one ... :biggrin:

To bad I'll miss 16 Billion ... should be a real treat

[Edited on 3-14-2014 by wessongroup]

Actually THAT fact is what I am talking about, Wiley. Until INDIVIDUALS take on the responsibility of changing what THEY do, nothing will change for the better. Govt. is helpless unless folks willingly cooperate with the intent, and change THEIR personal behavior. It that does not happen, I fear that the problem is hopeless. As always, it all boils down to INDIVIDUALS being responsible for their actions, and the consequences, IMO.

Barry

Skipjack Joe - 3-14-2014 at 12:38 PM

You are ignoring the point, Barry. It's not whether 8 billion are there or not, but whether they are affecting the earths's climate or not. The enlightened ones accept the impact and are looking for ways to lighten it, others simply deny it claiming it's a political hoax of some sort <rolleyes>.

But even if you know absolutely zero about global climates and factors that affect them it stands to simple reason that 8 billion people can't simply exist on earth without any footprint. I am amazed at the endless arguments about something that is completely obvious.

Barry A. - 3-14-2014 at 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
You are ignoring the point, Barry. It's not whether 8 billion are there or not, but whether they are affecting the earths's climate or not. The enlightened ones accept the impact and are looking for ways to lighten it, others simply deny it claiming it's a political hoax of some sort <rolleyes>.

But even if you know absolutely zero about global climates and factors that affect them it stands to simple reason that 8 billion people can't simply exist on earth without any footprint. I am amazed at the endless arguments about something that is completely obvious.

I did not mean to "ignor" it----I just took it for granted in this case that most here simply know the truth, and that it lies somewhere inbetween the extreme views and positions. In what you say here, you are right, of course. Given that, now what? To me, Whale-ista and others are just taking all that as reality, and moving on to solutions that THEY can control, and make a difference.

I think we are thinking along similar lines, but having said that, we differ in our acceptance of the existing "science" and what we think we should do with that info, and the problem or climate change in general. To me, the population problem is another issue, and problem, but agree it is a HUGE problem.

Barry

DavidE - 3-14-2014 at 01:14 PM

An Amazon forest die off will generate more CO2 by factors than all the CO2 released by mankind since Lucy walked the earth. And it has happened.

When extremists scream at each other the truth is often found somewhere in the middle.

Careless and stupid polluting is illogical.

So is mandating 15 PPM diesel fuel when gasoline has 40 or more PPM.

And people wondered why "I bailed out". Thank you for reassuring me my rationale was if anything vastly understated.

[Edited on 3-14-2014 by DavidE]

BajaLuna - 3-14-2014 at 01:19 PM

I'm not saying I do or don't believe in global warming, I just feel we can get so lost in debating it, the back and forth banter, and the arguments of things... that it distracts us from the bigger picture. It's all about where we want to put our energy...into the argument or doing something? Although reading about everyone's ideas, solutions for the sunshine state which sustains so many people, where the water is coming from, and the farmer's issues etc...I am finding all of that so fascinating...all of that discussion is so very important, helpful and interesting!

I'm just a preparer I guess, even when I lived in SoCal I stored water and food, helloo we lived in earthquake territory and yet others don't see the importance of it until of course they are in crisis...and even then they will likely go back to their old ways of not being prepared when the crisis has a bandaid on it. Case in point when SD had that big emergency 3-4 years ago (trust me I'm not singling out SD, people everywhere are ill prepared for an emergency), Atm machines didn't work, gas lines were long and gas stations closing down, stores in disarray and not having enough and sold out on water...all my family and friends put messages on facebook about what can they do, they don't have water, they have no cash, banks are closed, etc etc etc...they were in high anxiety panic mode...and I just sat there scratching my head thinking you people live in earthquake territory and yet you don't even have milk jugs of water saved, WTH?

The State of California has put the message out there, they do a good job of it, they have an awesome website with lists of things to do and keep around the house in case of emergency, yet people fail to prepare. It's mind boggling!

What will people do if they can't just jump in their car and go down to their local store to buy food or water? We have all gotten so complacent. And we trust the people in power to solve it all for us???, and yet they are all looking out for their own agendas (the left and the right).

Preparedness, forward thinking, and getting out of our comfort zones is crucial.

Whether global warming is real or not, most people agree we seriously need to make changes. And progress IS going on little by little, so don't get me wrong there. I don't trust the Politicians to make ALL the changes necessary for us...and maybe they WILL make some good progress...but we simply can't rely on them making sound decisions to the water issues, history has shown us this, eh....but it really comes down to me and you in making sure our families are able to have water and eat in these unstable time we are living in. And support our small local non-corporate farmers too! They are the ones who have our backs!

This Winter my hubby has been studying how to do a cistern on a budget, not sure we will go this route at our place here in woods...but we are having fun learning about them and reading about what other people are doing! Anyone have any direct experience building one?

I don't think SoCal alone should go on odd/even rationing, heck do it everywhere...water is all interconnected!

wessongroup - 3-14-2014 at 02:42 PM

"water is all interconnected! "

This is a BIG ONE !! IMHO

Considering who and what is composed of "water"

[Edited on 3-14-2014 by wessongroup]

BajaLuna - 3-14-2014 at 02:46 PM

oh yes, the population problem is a huge issue. We simply cannot keep using the resources so grossly. We gotta be more careful and not take more than we need and instead use things like solar, wind, and rainwater. But too many people (and corporations) have the mentality that it is every man for himself, the us vs them mentality...as long as I have mine who cares about you... and not the reality of hellooo we are all in this together.

Solutions, yes we need solutions! And people who want to have honest and heart-centered discussions about what we can all do about it.

absolutely, BarryA...we each need to take responsibility, we can only control what WE can control, we can only change our own behaviors to make things better and there is nobody going to save us, certainly not the governments. And we need to spread the word and help others transition into more sustainable living too! help one another! I love community working together and new forward thinking ideas! I hope to be involved with community gardens and such in Baja too! I dream of being a part of a farmer's market in BA and planting our entire backyard with a food garden! I have a lot to learn from the locals!

While others are bickering about things that wont matter squat in the grand scheme of things...meanwhile there is a strong and HUGE sustainable living movement out there they know nothing about nor care to know about. It's not a new movement...I've been in it since the 70's...yep it's been going on for yearssssss. And I've learned along the way...that some people will always just keep taking about the problems in their community and never look inward on how they are personally contributing to the problem nor how they can contribute to the solution, there are just some who want to blame everything and everyone else instead of thinking what they can do to lessen their own personal footprint. Sad but true!

In every group...there are always the talkers and those who sit on the sidelines criticizing...and then there are the doers who want to be a part of the solution, take action, and make changes happen!

sustainable living...it's where it's at, people.

Skipjack Joe - 3-14-2014 at 02:52 PM

BajaLuna, you do make a lot of sense. Arguing about the presence or absence of global warming does seem to make less sense than dealing with more immediate problems. But I do think it's an important issue because we need to address the source with the problem not it's symptoms. Because otherwise there is no end to it.

It's kind of like the 'bad' carburetor I had in my old chevy. I replaced it 3 times because it was gummed up. It was only the 4th mechanic that discovered that there was some smog reducing valve that was not functioning properly and causing the carburetor to suck up air directly from the engine.

How many times have you received a diagnosis from a physician who you know is treating some symptom that you know in your heart is not the cause of your malady?

That's how I see the problems in California. We can add a dam here or reduce water there but that's being in a reactive mode. There is no end to it. It would be best to address the root of the problem. But if you just say that our situation is 'natural' then we're back at square one. Just my opinion.

You left out part of my post regarding:human impacts on climate change...

Whale-ista - 3-14-2014 at 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Skipjack Joe-
I don't mind engaging in a debate, but please read the entire post. I never said people have no impact on this. I also wrote this about climate change, current and past:

"What has changed since then is **the scale and scope of human activity that exacerbates the effect**. "

Maybe that wasn't clear, but I believe that many human activities are making what may have once been "normal" climate fluctuation much worse: this time, it's happening faster, for example, than previous changes, as shown in global samples of tree rings, ice core samples etc. from thousands of years ago that reflect rainfall, temperature variations etc.

I also wrote:
"Also, the fact humans have constructed cities, roads, housing, etc. based on certain temperature/climate/weather assumptions: sea/lake levels, storm intensity/duration/seasonality, availability of food, average temperature variation."

So while climate fluctuations are part of earth's history, what's been added are human activities and our reliance on things being relatively stable. When things change, they impact us in ways not seen in the past.

I'm certainly not trying to minimizing the problems or deny the causes, both planetary and human. I am suggesting we acknowledge that changes are happening, both for normal cyclical reasons with an added boost of human activity, and manage it by planning as best we can.

Hope that clarifies my original points.

bacquito - 3-14-2014 at 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whale-ista
Agreed. And that's the value of scientific research: the information lives on even as researchers pass away.

Weather Records from Europe are available from the 1700s. Paleoclimatologists can gather historic data from tree rings, glacier ice, seabed sediment, pollen records and other indicators going back thousands of years. By correlating their results they can see various trends over time.

All of these long time records show climate variability very clearly. While it's true we've had other warming and cooling events this one is proceeding on a very different time scale.

It also has a wider bandwidth. The high temperatures are higher and the cold temperatures are colder. The drought is more severe in places, and the rainfall more extreme in others.

Storms are reaching places they normally would not. The impact on housing, roads, and other infrastructure is significant.

So while individuals only live at most one hundred years, the records they collect plus natural records are from a much longer timescale and are very informative.

Good point!

willardguy - 3-14-2014 at 05:06 PM

you know its nice to hear intelligent conversation about this rather than use it as a segue to push a political agenda from someone who's too stubborn to bend! don't ya think? carry on gentlemen.

Thank you WillardGuy...

Whale-ista - 3-14-2014 at 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by willardguy
you know its nice to hear intelligent conversation about this rather than use it as a segue to push a political agenda from someone who's too stubborn to bend! don't ya think? carry on gentlemen.

I also appreciate the gentlemen and ladies who are participating- this has turned into quite a lengthy discussion, with interesting perspectives from people's experiences, and pretty civil too!

thanks to all who are part of the dialog.

Keep conserving water. Keep planting gardens. Can't hurt, might help...

woody with a view - 3-14-2014 at 07:44 PM

got the veggies in the ground and praying for surf this summer/winter and good times to be had be all...........and TUNA!!!!

BajaLuna - 3-14-2014 at 09:33 PM

Woody, you are ahead of me, I am in the process of warming the soil in most of the beds so maybe in about another week those will be ready to be planted up, the soil here is still mui fria...and have just planted my greens and peas so far, and in the process of hardening-off more seedlings to go in the soil just as soon as the soil temp is warmer.

awesome that you grow too!

dreaming of tuna too, OH BOY HOWDY are we!! Why did ya go and have to mention that, LOL. However, we are really enjoying the Baja white prawns we picked up from Costco up here in the PNW that's about as close to Baja as we are eating right now. They are HUGE and the best shrimp we have ever had, seriously these are primo! Puts us in a Baja state of mind! been eating a lot of salmon too this winter that my daughter-in-law's tribe gifted us with when our granddaughter was born..freezer is stocked up with it....so life ain't bad at all, not bad at all!!

enjoy the bounty of your garden, Woody....and may the garden gnomes smile upon you and guard your treasure!

dtbushpilot - 3-14-2014 at 10:18 PM

This world will be a better place when the humans leave the planet and give it a chance to recover from the damage that we have caused. Maybe we could implement selective breeding like China tried, you know, one child per couple or maybe we should just leave. those of us who can't afford a ticket to another planet could volunteer to "self destruct" for the good of the planet. It may seem radical now but in a few years it might be mainstream......just trying to get ahead of the crowd.....

BajaLuna - 3-15-2014 at 03:08 AM

SkipJack Joe, I get ya, I really do. Hence why I don't go to doctors and only naturopaths! They treat the root, eh.

You have a very valid point, and I appreciate your point....and I suppose we can learn a lot by analyzing and discussing it....and you are so right we tend to be in reactive mode instead of proactive, thus why I believe in self-sustainability, and in order to get down to what the problem truly is we need to not keep putting a bandaid on it and kicking the can down the road, and instead address the issue at it's core, I get that. Understanding the core of the problem instead of just the symptoms of it, I get that. It's good that these issues are discussed, we hear other points of views and get informed, and I love a well-rounded discussion from all sides of the spectrum, and being informed is important.

I guess I just get tired of the discussion overall that goes nowhere, not here on BN perse' but everywhere, and all the blame being spewed everywhere, and things don't change fast enough to keep up with the needs of the people or things don't get done at all because everyone passes the buck, it's all fluff and propaganda, empty promises etc. I truly am not a pessimist, quite the contrary...it's all just very frustrating that's all. People talk and talk about how things should be done, and what we all should be doing, and what we are going to do, and what we are doing wrong, but most aren't doing it in their daily lives...making the improvements that really need to be made in order to effect the larger real change we need in regards to global warming or water, our food supply and the quality of it or whatever....and so in the meantime years go by and still no progress. We need big change and that starts with little changes with clusters of people...people getting onboard.

Sometimes I think the problems are so big and such a cluster you-know-what that people just tune out and have stopped caring. And they have an every man for himself mentality...we'll see how that works for them when the chit does hit the fan.

In my direct experience things CAN and DO change in small groups on a local level which ripples outward. Small groups of people can and DO effect change more productively. And so while we discuss and argue about politics and think that will change things in as big of a way that is needed, it really doesn't. And so while we discuss global warming and whether it exists or not, or how we got to the problem of the water issue that we find ourselves in now,...we could be putting our energy and attention into ways that are better served on our home fronts and in our communities and from there effect real and permanent change.

The Politicians sold us out a long time ago, on both sides. I would have said, the public servants which is what they are suppose to be, but that's a joke. They all only serve the almighty Benjamin, lobbyists, and Corporate Gods. They will continue to put the life preserver on themselves first before we the people. Hence why we see water issues, farmland issues and so on....

we gotta stick together!

just my 2 cents...

Osprey - 3-15-2014 at 06:11 AM

Wow, I never imagined a thread could be treated so handsomely I'd get caught up in the thrust of it, get inspired, aroused. I tell ya, I'm about to wet my plants.

DavidE - 3-15-2014 at 11:46 AM

Have YOU planted this week

Mexitron - 3-19-2014 at 05:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron

Quote:

Thank you Steve... have a great day!

This report states the key issue, which may make the current interglacial period different, that its the sudden increase of CO2:

http://whatweknow.aaas.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/AAAS-W...

"After remaining relatively stable at around 280 parts-per-million (ppm) for millennia, carbon
dioxide (CO2) began to rise in the 19th century as people burned fossil fuels in ever-increasing
amounts. This upward trend continues today with concentrations breaking the 400 ppm mark just last
year. The rate of increase during the last 100 to 150 years has been much more rapid than in other
periods of the Earth’s history. The warming effect of CO2 and other heat-trapping gases is well established
and can be demonstrated with simple science experiments and satellite observations.
Without the natural “greenhouse” effect from gases in our atmosphere, Earth would be a frozen
planet."

Skipjack Joe - 3-19-2014 at 07:24 AM

Yes, the news on this subject is pretty depressing. Not for me, because I'll be long gone by the time things get real bad, but for my kids and their kids.

I'm still hoping for this solution (from mexitron's article) -

"The effects of CO2 emissions cannot be reversed from one generation to the next until there is a large scale, cost effective way to scrub carbon dioxide from the atmosphere."

gnukid - 3-19-2014 at 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron

Quote:

Originally posted by David K

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron

Quote:

Thank you Steve... have a great day!

Except that we are in a period of low CO2 (345ppm) compared to history and would benefit greatly from higher concentration of CO2 with greater productivity of plant life and diversity.

There is massive sequestration of CO2 and methane within stratus of ocean and may see huge release such as one finds in a volcanic eruption or other event. More likely the release of these gases from the ocean and volcanos is not consistent, but sudden as has likely occurred in the past causing rapid change in climate and environment.

A real concern is the assault on the environment by disparate geo-engineering which experimentally manipulates the jet stream with spraying a poisonous mix of aerosols and use HAARP which is massively disrupting and poisoning the ecosystem, but if we discuss that, then people will panic and argue polemic themes.

Who of you will simply look up at the massive amount of spraying of poison daily even over remote regions of Baja and SOC, why not open your yes and do a little research to be aware of the actual threat of geo-engineering as a catalyst for higher concentration of atmospheric barium, aluminum particles and reduced solar energy?

monoloco - 3-19-2014 at 08:02 AM

The last time that CO2 was at present levels, there were horses and camels living in the high arctic:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/energy/2013/05/13051...

gnukid - 3-19-2014 at 08:18 AM

Consider the work Dr. Vincent Gray on historical CO2 levels.

Here is a long term chart of CO2

Most nomads would recall that CO2 is the life energy of the earth and without it we would certainly not exist, nor is there any evidence of correlation to temperature nor evidence of harm.

More to the point, global temperature averages have been stable for more than 17 years and many countries such as the USA have reduced CO2 output over the last 10-20 years.

The real threat is massive pollution from geo-engineering, military industrial complex and HAARP which is nothing less than an assault on the health and well being of every person. The measurable increase of aluminum particles is off the charts causing huge health damage to all life.

It really can't be hard to observe the aerosol spraying and witness the affects?

monoloco - 3-19-2014 at 09:55 AM

There is exactly zero evidence of high CO2 levels during periods of glaciation.

Mexitron - 3-19-2014 at 10:02 AM

Yes gnukid, there are various scenarios showing temperature and CO2 not being correlated over historical time periods. However, the gist of this report is the concern over the sudden input of CO2 over the last 150 years---a lot of CO2 in a very short time geologically.

[Edited on 3-19-2014 by Mexitron]

mtgoat666 - 3-19-2014 at 10:07 AM

Reconstructions of global temperature that include greenhouse gas increases and other human influences (red line, based on many models) closely match measured temperatures (dashed line).[38] Those that only include natural influences (blue line, based on many models) show a slight cooling, which has not occurred.[38] The ability of models to generate reasonable histories of global temperature is verified by their response to four 20th-century volcanic eruptions: each eruption caused brief cooling that appeared in observed as well as modeled records.[38]

This set of graphs shows the estimated contribution of various natural and human factors to changes in global mean temperature between 1889–2006.[41] Estimated contributions are based on multivariate analysis rather than model simulations.[42] The graphs show that human influence on climate has eclipsed the magnitude of natural temperature changes over the past 120 years.[43] Natural influences on temperature—El Niño, solar variability, and volcanic aerosols—have varied approximately plus and minus 0.2 °C (0.4 °F), (averaging to about zero), while human influences have contributed roughly 0.8 °C (1 °F) of warming since 1889.[43]

This graph shows fluctuations in temperature and atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide over the past 649,000 years. Temperature changes for Vostok in Antarctica are shown as a red line. Antarctic temperature is plotted from 421,000 BC to 2000 AD. Temperature is measured as the change from average conditions for the period 1850 AD to 2000 AD. The atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide measured in Antarctica is shown on the graph as a yellow shaded area. Carbon dioxide concentrations from Antarctica are plotted from 647,000 BC to 1975 AD. A red vertical bar is shown towards the right hand side of the graph. This indicates the recent rise in the atmospheric concentration of carbon dioxide over the past two centuries, measured at Mauna Loa on the island of Hawaii. Carbon dioxide concentrations from Mauna Loa are plotted from 1958 AD to 2006 AD. The graph shows that during at least the last 650,000 years, carbon dioxide levels have tended to track the glacial cycles. During warm interglacial periods, carbon dioxide levels have been high, and during cool periods, carbon dioxide levels have been low.

p.s. al gore is right, and he did help invent the internet :lol:

gnukid - 3-19-2014 at 01:13 PM

Goat

Your graphs show that CO2 follows temperature to some degree within a few hundred years, as opposed to leading temperature. Do you get the difference?

gnukid - 3-19-2014 at 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron
Yes gnukid, there are various scenarios showing temperature and CO2 not being correlated over historical time periods. However, the gist of this report is the concern over the sudden input of CO2 over the last 150 years---a lot of CO2 in a very short time geologically.

[Edited on 3-19-2014 by Mexitron]

The earth holds mass quantities of CO2 and methane in the ocean, earth and rock. These are released in huge quantities suddenly, not at a constant rate, those releases have dramatic affects.

The massive release you reference is a jump from 300 to 400ppm over more than 100 years, while we are still at all time lows of CO2 PPM.

Let's consider the environmental affects of dumping 10000% increase of aerosol aluminum, barium and other particles in the atmosphere to experiment on how we can alter the jet stream with massive energy input to heat and alter the inosphere and move the jet stream for economic gain/loss, destroying farming, life and causing harm to every living thing. The results are irreversible and devastating to each of us, but don't look to the EPA, FDA, FAA, or any Government agency to assist.

Have you noticed the radical change in the jet stream this year and daily spraying, west coast drought, east coast freeze? Massive die offs of animals, human health issues, with a measurable increase aluminum and barium in the ocean and soil and air?

Does it bother you?

Does anyone look up and see planes spraying aerosol over the SOC and over Baja, back and forth, until a massive white out spreads across the horizon?

Does anyone notice the affect on their solar power, gardens and health. Does it bother you?

mtgoat666 - 3-19-2014 at 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Does anyone look up and see planes spraying aerosol over the SOC and over Baja, back and forth, until a massive white out spreads across the horizon?

well, i have not noticed this. please do post a pic of the plane(s). what are they spraying? barium and aluminum?

perhaps i should treat this as a great stock buying tip and invest in barium and aluminum futures!

DavidE - 3-19-2014 at 01:41 PM

Let's turn the middle east into a rain forest, and have a vast inland sea form in the interior of Australia. Just imagine: Ayers Island Theme Park.

Time to go north and suck Washington into a raisin.

David K - 3-19-2014 at 02:00 PM

aerosol=water vapor (hot air from engines meets cold air and creates clouds that look like long tracks in the sky).

mtgoat666 - 3-19-2014 at 02:48 PM

i put on my tin foil hat! don't you think it makes me look 10 years younger?

gnukid - 3-19-2014 at 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
aerosol=water vapor (hot air from engines meets cold air and creates clouds that look like long tracks in the sky).

There you have it -DK and Mr Bill have proven the aerosol spray across the sky is nothing at all-problem solved. Thanks DK and Mr Blill-Genius~

Geoengineering, synthetic biology, genetic modification, and nano-biologoy don't exist!
it's all water vapor. Thank you DK, Goat and Bill!

[Edited on 3-20-2014 by gnukid]

Mexitron - 3-19-2014 at 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid

Quote:

Been reading too much George Ure lately? :lol:

I guess my question would be---why would we try to alter the climate with aerosols if its detrimental?

gnukid - 3-19-2014 at 09:35 PM

It is interesting that the topic evokes responses that range from informative to aggressive ridicule and defiant ignorance, a response in itself for consideration.

While widespread spraying of aerosol aluminum and barium chemicals with the result of less inhabitable land and water is observable by every person in Baja, and the chemical result is measurable, there are a fair number of nomads (DK, Goat, MrBIll) who are adamant Geo-engineering, synthetic biology, nano-technology with aerosols and HAARP do not exist?

Engineered biological artificial intelligence at a sub cellular nano-biological level altering all DNA, DK, GOAT, BILL? Who will adapt who will be culled?

I guess (DK, Goat, MrBIll) won't be getting jobs in transhuman engineering which accounts for a large number of bioengineering jobs in Mountain View and San Diego?

Do nomads look up at the sky? Read? Is this a topic that people are afraid to discuss honestly?

For those interested in the topic, perhaps search on Ray Kurzweil who works in Mountain View and is considered the leader in (singularity) trans-humanism. He is someone who has already affected everyone.

[Edited on 3-20-2014 by gnukid]

mtgoat666 - 3-19-2014 at 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Do nomads look up at the sky? Read much?

Well, I guess I don't read much, as your post today was first I heard about aerial spraying of experimental chemicals from govt jets (i.e. Chemtrails). I do look up occasionally, and I see contrails (I think), but how do the chemtrails visually differ from contrails??

Btw, My fav contrails are the occasional contrails from rocket launches at Vandenberg afb. Sometimes quite pretty.

P.s. I like to call contrails "scratches in the sky."

David K - 3-19-2014 at 10:13 PM

I do look up in the sky... and sometimes I see clouds... sometimes they are made by God (Nature) when warm and cool air collide and sometimes a jet flies by and makes long straight 'clouds' called 'vapor trails' because they are water vapor, caused by warm air and cooler air interacting.

Have you seen a glass with ice water form water drops on the outside of the glass (can you say 'condensation'). The glass isn't leaking... the warm air contacts the cool glass, and wallah, water vapor (a clear, odorless gas) changes to liquid water. Clouds are concentrations of water vapor heavy enough to be seen.

Have a nice day!

willardguy - 3-19-2014 at 10:16 PM

is it possible you're all nuts? :lol:

David K - 3-19-2014 at 10:30 PM

I think THAT is smoke! LOL

gnukid - 3-20-2014 at 04:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by David K
I do look up in the sky... and sometimes I see clouds... sometimes they are made by God (Nature) when warm and cool air collide and sometimes a jet flies by and makes long straight 'clouds' called 'vapor trails' because they are water vapor, caused by warm air and cooler air interacting.

Have you seen a glass with ice water form water drops on the outside of the glass (can you say 'condensation'). The glass isn't leaking... the warm air contacts the cool glass, and wallah, water vapor (a clear, odorless gas) changes to liquid water. Clouds are concentrations of water vapor heavy enough to be seen.

Have a nice day!

Precisely DK, it's termed wet surface air cooler (WSAC), also called, direct steam condensing for power generation for closed loop evaporative wet surface air cooler technology. The water vapor provides enough vapor to drive a global weather control system.

Power plants that output steam contribute a great deal of vapor to this atmospheric moisture combined with these aerosols sprayed from planes to provide a medium that can be heated using HAARP and piezo like electricity, using (EMF) electro magnetic frequencies to heat the crystalline like particles, causing large changes in the jet stream, as well as an agenda using nano-particles for (GNR) genetic nano and robotics technology.

Now we have more mass flooded and dry areas that are forcing people off farms for decades, gutting farming, providing an opportunity for consolidating land ownership to consolidate and control population. Nano particulates are distributed throughout the environment for planetary and genetic engineering.

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