BajaNomad

The palm tree is going two feet under water

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surabi - 10-2-2024 at 11:00 AM

Vast tracts of land are clearcut, with all the natural wildlife displaced by developers to build housing. It never comes back because it is then covered in houses and roads.

Clearing to put up solar panels doesn't "kill the earth". It isn't covered in concrete. Vegetation can grow back.

Tioloco - 10-2-2024 at 11:09 AM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
Is your point that prior to adding the solar panel farms Gila Bend was a “Garden Spot” in August? I’ve driven through there since the early ‘70s it’s never been a “garden spot” in the summer!


No, my point is that the temperature has risen in the area of that solar panel installation because of the heat generated by it.
Another unintended consequence of "green energy". Not to mention what will happen when the panels are obsolete and it is abandoned.


Not “Green” just saving $$$!

RFClark - 10-2-2024 at 11:11 AM

For us based on the costs solar is way cheaper than CFE. Especially since we charge our PHEV off of solar!

The reason that there’s nothing under the panel farms around Gila Bend is not much grows there. Where there’s water agriculture and Solar coexist.

https://www.agritecture.com/blog/2022/2/3/largest-farm-to-gr...




IMG_5544.jpeg - 124kB

Tioloco - 10-2-2024 at 11:11 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy  
Phoenix? Heat Island now for 50 years
In the 1800s it cooled off every night in the summer (for the most part) before asphalt and concrete

Solar fields are "environmentally" friendly?
Do we realize that UNDER every solar field EVERY living thing is cut clean off the ground (every plant and animal removed from the earth under the panels) before the first panel is brought in.
Do we realize that it has to stay that way for the life of the solar field?
How many millions of acres are needed for solar field expansion to supply the proposed power demands?
Are we willing to kill the earth under these millions of acres of land in exchange for being "Green"?
Seems to be a strange juxtaposition to be in.

And we are not even into the total life cycle cost of the panels themselves and being as how there is no recycling of the panels they all go into the ground when they die.

Much the same BTW to the propeller blades on wind farms- more land fill candidates now and in the future.
YA I guess that's what "going Green" is!



[Edited on 10-2-2024 by Cliffy]


You are on point. Unfortunately, the environmentalists only care when it is in their backyard.

RFClark - 10-2-2024 at 11:25 AM

Feel free to explain how the building on the left heats up the earth more than the two on the right!



IMG_5546.jpeg - 273kB

Cliffy - 10-2-2024 at 11:32 AM

How come no one on the "Green" side ever promotes nuclear power as an alternative to dino juice?
Its clean generating power and its waste foot print after being used up is minuscule compared to the total power produced.

Safety? How many reactors do we have of modern design in the Navy and space that have NEVER had any incidents let alone melt downs when operated by qualified crews?
Adm. Rickover set the standard and it has served well for 60+ years in the US Navy
Seems we have had the perfect blueprint for clean power all the time except for hysteria.

Again- the sky is falling and the world is doomed.


mtgoat666 - 10-2-2024 at 11:45 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy  
Phoenix? Heat Island now for 50 years
In the 1800s it cooled off every night in the summer (for the most part) before asphalt and concrete

Solar fields are "environmentally" friendly?
Do we realize that UNDER every solar field EVERY living thing is cut clean off the ground (every plant and animal removed from the earth under the panels) before the first panel is brought in.
Do we realize that it has to stay that way for the life of the solar field?
How many millions of acres are needed for solar field expansion to supply the proposed power demands?
Are we willing to kill the earth under these millions of acres of land in exchange for being "Green"?
Seems to be a strange juxtaposition to be in.

And we are not even into the total life cycle cost of the panels themselves and being as how there is no recycling of the panels they all go into the ground when they die.

Much the same BTW to the propeller blades on wind farms- more land fill candidates now and in the future.
YA I guess that's what "going Green" is!

[Edited on 10-2-2024 by Cliffy]


Your being pro-fossil fuel, and against PV and wind because PV and wind create waste is ridiculous. Fossil fuel power plants create waste. Green house gas, combustion byproducts, waste/scrap equipment, etc.

Look at net results over the full power plant life cycle…. Fossil fuel is dirtier, more wasteful.


surabi - 10-2-2024 at 02:36 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
For us based on the costs solar is way cheaper than CFE. Especially since we charge our PHEV off of solar!

The reason that there’s nothing under the panel farms around Gila Bend is not much grows there. Where there’s water agriculture and Solar coexist.

https://www.agritecture.com/blog/2022/2/3/largest-farm-to-gr...




Thank you for calling out Cliffy's misconceptions he presents as fact.

It's amazing how many people will opine on things they have no experience with nor bother to research. Like those who've never driven EVs coming up with all kinds of imagined reasons why they aren't practical, or why solar or wind energy "won't work".

JDCanuck - 10-2-2024 at 02:57 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy  
How come no one on the "Green" side ever promotes nuclear power as an alternative to dino juice?
Its clean generating power and its waste foot print after being used up is minuscule compared to the total power produced.

Safety? How many reactors do we have of modern design in the Navy and space that have NEVER had any incidents let alone melt downs when operated by qualified crews?
Adm. Rickover set the standard and it has served well for 60+ years in the US Navy
Seems we have had the perfect blueprint for clean power all the time except for hysteria.

Again- the sky is falling and the world is doomed.



There was a time that Nuclear was heavily promoted as a green energy source. Then we had all those radioactive storage leaks at Haniford and in the Hudson and later ***ishima. The latest is to pay town owners up front to store the waste in deep underground caverns and the present beneficiaries will be long gone before it starts leaking. At 33% efficiency only 1/3 of the high amount of energy is converted to power, the rest is wasted into the environment as heat, mainly to seawater cooling which boosts the ocean temps even more. There are better solutions

SFandH - 10-2-2024 at 03:17 PM

One big reason there aren't more nukes is that they are by far the most expensive type of power plant to build, almost by factor of 10 when compared to natural gas. And, when they wear out, the decommissioning costs are huge. People in southern California are still paying for San Onofre even though it was shut down in 2012. Decommissioning will be complete 2028. That's 16 years of costs with no benefit.

Tioloco - 10-2-2024 at 03:42 PM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
For us based on the costs solar is way cheaper than CFE. Especially since we charge our PHEV off of solar!

The reason that there’s nothing under the panel farms around Gila Bend is not much grows there. Where there’s water agriculture and Solar coexist.

https://www.agritecture.com/blog/2022/2/3/largest-farm-to-gr...






Please familiarize yourself with the equipment necessary for tilling, grading, irrigating, controlling pests and harvesting any agricultural lands on a commercial scale.

This picture of solar panels above ag fields is not a serious proposal for all of the above reasons.

Not much more than a feel good photo.

SFandH - 10-2-2024 at 03:43 PM

I just bought the components for a solar powered refrigerator to keep the beer cold at our place in BCS. It will be a considerable reduction in my personal carbon footprint. :cool:

Tioloco - 10-2-2024 at 03:48 PM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  
I just bought the components for a solar powered refrigerator to keep the beer cold at our place in BCS. It will be a considerable reduction in my personal carbon footprint. :cool:


Do you turn off your refrigerator in Tucson when you leave for BCS so you are creating less carbon unnecessarily?

surabi - 10-3-2024 at 12:21 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  


Please familiarize yourself with the equipment necessary for tilling, grading, irrigating, controlling pests and harvesting any agricultural lands on a commercial scale.

This picture of solar panels above ag fields is not a serious proposal for all of the above reasons.

Not much more than a feel good photo.


You missed the entire point. Which is that solar farms don't "kill the earth". As long as the area gets water, whether from rain or irrigation, and it was a naturally vegetated area, whatever was cleared for the installation regenerates.

RFClark - 10-3-2024 at 04:09 AM

Tioloco,

The picture is from the article linked below it. You might want to read that!

FYI the wife and I owned a small cattle ranch long ago. We had several tractors and other “farm equipment”!

Tioloco - 10-3-2024 at 06:31 AM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
Tioloco,

The picture is from the article linked below it. You might want to read that!

FYI the wife and I owned a small cattle ranch long ago. We had several tractors and other “farm equipment”!


You should go look at what type of equipment is used in large scale farming. It is heavily mechanized. Those solar panels would not allow for the tractors to do what is needed.
Additionally, for crop production and the rapid turn around from one crop to the next, shading any area from the sunlight with solar panels would be extremely counterproductive and cut back on production significantly.

I have an off grid house and am very familiar with how my solar panels, inverter and battery storage and backup diesel power generation works. I love it for what it does but it is nowhere near being as convenient or reliable as being tied to the grid.

surabi - 10-3-2024 at 10:52 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  

Additionally, for crop production and the rapid turn around from one crop to the next, shading any area from the sunlight with solar panels would be extremely counterproductive and cut back on production significantly.



:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: As is obvious from the photo, there is only a small strip of ground that is in shade. Which will move with the sun all day.

And anyone who has grown vegetables before knows that many crops prefer partial shade.
There are many large agricultural operations where you will see shade cloth strung over certain crops because they hate baking in the hot sun all day.

Salsa - 10-3-2024 at 11:11 AM

What is the price of labor to hand pick the crop under the solar panels?

In Kalifornia it would be $25 or so per hour per govt mandate.

Don

Tioloco - 10-3-2024 at 12:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by surabi  
Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  

Additionally, for crop production and the rapid turn around from one crop to the next, shading any area from the sunlight with solar panels would be extremely counterproductive and cut back on production significantly.



:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: As is obvious from the photo, there is only a small strip of ground that is in shade. Which will move with the sun all day.

And anyone who has grown vegetables before knows that many crops prefer partial shade.
There are many large agricultural operations where you will see shade cloth strung over certain crops because they hate baking in the hot sun all day.


You have no concept of large scale agricultural production requirements and expectations.

surabi - 10-3-2024 at 01:41 PM

Still missing the point. This isn't a thread about large scale agriculture, just because RFC posted a photo of an agricultural operation under solar panels. It's about environmental effects of solar farms. Cliffy falsely stated that they "kill the earth" under them, which they do not.

Cliffy - 10-3-2024 at 03:38 PM

"Cliffy falsely stated that they "kill the earth" under them, which they do not."
Pray tell just what happens when a new solar field is developed and they go in and denude the entire project area of ALL vegetation and living beings?
No one yet has answered the questions of cradle to grave costs on wind and solar.
No one yet has answered the question of how we get rid of dino juice power plants and still power the grid when the sun don't shine or the wind don't blow or we have fluctuating power grid demands.
How about hydro power? Why not build more dams and generate clean power? OH I forgot -THAT is an environmental disaster under the water but scraping the ground clean under solar panels is not> HMMMM

Without dino juice power the grid fails Period! And dont go to the "we'll have better batteries to handle it" route. That ain't going to happen on an national scale in anyone's life time (not to mention the environmental disaster just making the batteries would involve).

Putting up a few panels on your roof to power what is in reality a campsite doesn't come close in scale to powering the entire grid with "renewables". No problem for you to do for your microcosm but at scale for the entire grid it ain't gonna work anytime soon.

To preach that the sky is falling unless we go green is just fear mongering.

Without government subsidy the price of wind and solar energy would go way up and be non-competitive to dino juice power, Without the subsidies you wouldn't even have a solar or wind industry.

You say dino juice has subsidies also? OK I'm all for dropping ALL government subsidies across the board and letting the market determine the winners and not a government mandated program.

You say I'm against EVs- NOT SO by any means. Just the mandating of the technology and not the vehicle itself.
Just remember the horsepower has to come from somewhere

Also, let EVs compete without government subsidies.
Hybrid cars may be the best solution and not straight EVs.

As many do they just sit a pontificate about this all the while not addressing the problems ahead if it goes that way

Attached below is a link showing just what happens when emotion gets in the way of sound engineering-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BD_wkP91P0&list=TLPQMDM...




[Edited on 10-3-2024 by Cliffy]

cupcake - 10-3-2024 at 03:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy  

Solar fields are "environmentally" friendly?
Do we realize that UNDER every solar field EVERY living thing is cut clean off the ground (every plant and animal removed from the earth under the panels) before the first panel is brought in.


Solar project to destroy thousands of Joshua trees in the Mojave Desert
https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2024-05-31/solar-p...

If only there was a way to tranfer the electricity, there could be emense solar panels orbiting the earth. Perhaps Elon Musk will devise such a technology.

[Edited on 10-3-2024 by cupcake]

SFandH - 10-3-2024 at 03:55 PM

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake  
Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy  

Solar fields are "environmentally" friendly?
Do we realize that UNDER every solar field EVERY living thing is cut clean off the ground (every plant and animal removed from the earth under the panels) before the first panel is brought in.


Solar project to destroy thousands of Joshua trees in the Mojave Desert
https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2024-05-31/solar-p...



That's unfortunate. From the article:

"The person with knowledge of the project said the company’s plan now included destroying 3,500 Joshua trees."

I wonder how many Joshua trees are in the area. Is 3,500 1%, 10%, 50%, what? That's the way to look at it.




[Edited on 10-3-2024 by SFandH]

cupcake - 10-3-2024 at 04:33 PM

I don't know the answer to that question. This one site is 2,300 acres. This will be the ninth site this company has built in Kern County.

"When asked why the company decided to put the project on land next to the two towns, Sundquist said that executives wanted to keep the solar field in Kern County rather than farther south in San Bernardino. “We like doing business here,” he said.

In 2019, San Bernardino County Supervisors voted to ban the construction of large solar and wind farms on more than 1 million acres of private land."


mtgoat666 - 10-3-2024 at 04:49 PM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  
Quote: Originally posted by cupcake  
Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy  

Solar fields are "environmentally" friendly?
Do we realize that UNDER every solar field EVERY living thing is cut clean off the ground (every plant and animal removed from the earth under the panels) before the first panel is brought in.


Solar project to destroy thousands of Joshua trees in the Mojave Desert
https://www.latimes.com/environment/story/2024-05-31/solar-p...



That's unfortunate. From the article:

"The person with knowledge of the project said the company’s plan now included destroying 3,500 Joshua trees."

I wonder how many Joshua trees are in the area. Is 3,500 1%, 10%, 50%, what? That's the way to look at it.
[Edited on 10-3-2024 by SFandH]


Do we really need to protect the joshua tree? I mean, it is pretty ugly. Doesn't provide much shade. What use is it? :lol:

mtgoat666 - 10-3-2024 at 04:55 PM

Quote: Originally posted by cupcake  
I don't know the answer to that question. This one site is 2,300 acres. This will be the ninth site this company has built in Kern County.

"When asked why the company decided to put the project on land next to the two towns, Sundquist said that executives wanted to keep the solar field in Kern County rather than farther south in San Bernardino. “We like doing business here,” he said.

In 2019, San Bernardino County Supervisors voted to ban the construction of large solar and wind farms on more than 1 million acres of private land."



They choose land based on:
Productivity
Land price
Cost/ease of tieing into the grid
Permitability

I applaud local communities doing land planning to save their community in the face of destruction by developers. What would you rather live next to? Undeveloped desert, farm land, ta ta bar, meth lab, homeless shelter, or industrial utility-scale solar plant?

cupcake - 10-3-2024 at 04:59 PM

Joshua Tree
https://www.nwf.org/Educational-Resources/Wildlife-Guide/Pla...

"This type of interaction, where two organisms are dependent upon each other for mutual benefits, is called a mutualistic symbiotic relationship. A number of other animals are also served by Joshua trees. For example, 25 bird species nest in Joshua trees. Lizards and invertebrates use various parts of the tree for cover, and a number of mammals rely on Joshua trees for food."

[Edited on 10-4-2024 by cupcake]

RFClark - 10-3-2024 at 11:13 PM

Tioloco,

Living off the grid is “camping” and you can’t use mechanized farm equipment under solar panels is right up there with Gila Bend (and Phoenix) was a nice place before the “round eyes” moved there and screwed up the weather!

Phoenix was a hell hole during the Korean war. I was there. People grew their lawns under water it was so hot!

Is your “experience” in agriculture growing what you smoke?

Tioloco - 10-4-2024 at 01:55 AM

Quote: Originally posted by RFClark  
Tioloco,

Living off the grid is “camping” and you can’t use mechanized farm equipment under solar panels is right up there with Gila Bend (and Phoenix) was a nice place before the “round eyes” moved there and screwed up the weather!

Phoenix was a hell hole during the Korean war. I was there. People grew their lawns under water it was so hot!

Is your “experience” in agriculture growing what you smoke?


Ok, go to Salinas and tell me how your solar panels in the field will work out. Clue- it WONT. And for clarity, I have never "smoked" anything.

As for "camping", like I have previously stated- Solar works for situations like my off-grid house in Mexico but it is NOT as convenient as being on grid nor will it ever be.

Phoenix is hot in the summer. Is getting hotter because of the urban sprawl with concrete- not because of "Climate Change" per se. Living in the desert in summer is easier and more comfortable than living in the forest with snow in the winter but that is just a personal opinion.

Tioloco - 10-4-2024 at 01:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy  
"Cliffy falsely stated that they "kill the earth" under them, which they do not."
Pray tell just what happens when a new solar field is developed and they go in and denude the entire project area of ALL vegetation and living beings?
No one yet has answered the questions of cradle to grave costs on wind and solar.
No one yet has answered the question of how we get rid of dino juice power plants and still power the grid when the sun don't shine or the wind don't blow or we have fluctuating power grid demands.
How about hydro power? Why not build more dams and generate clean power? OH I forgot -THAT is an environmental disaster under the water but scraping the ground clean under solar panels is not> HMMMM

Without dino juice power the grid fails Period! And dont go to the "we'll have better batteries to handle it" route. That ain't going to happen on an national scale in anyone's life time (not to mention the environmental disaster just making the batteries would involve).

Putting up a few panels on your roof to power what is in reality a campsite doesn't come close in scale to powering the entire grid with "renewables". No problem for you to do for your microcosm but at scale for the entire grid it ain't gonna work anytime soon.

To preach that the sky is falling unless we go green is just fear mongering.

Without government subsidy the price of wind and solar energy would go way up and be non-competitive to dino juice power, Without the subsidies you wouldn't even have a solar or wind industry.

You say dino juice has subsidies also? OK I'm all for dropping ALL government subsidies across the board and letting the market determine the winners and not a government mandated program.

You say I'm against EVs- NOT SO by any means. Just the mandating of the technology and not the vehicle itself.
Just remember the horsepower has to come from somewhere

Also, let EVs compete without government subsidies.
Hybrid cars may be the best solution and not straight EVs.

As many do they just sit a pontificate about this all the while not addressing the problems ahead if it goes that way

Attached below is a link showing just what happens when emotion gets in the way of sound engineering-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BD_wkP91P0&list=TLPQMDM...




[Edited on 10-3-2024 by Cliffy]


Cliffy, you are on point as usual. Will just leave this in your hands and let the usual players here scramble.

Salsa - 10-4-2024 at 12:12 PM

Mu take on all of this is

Concrete Jungles Cause the Earth to Heat UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don

Tioloco - 10-4-2024 at 12:27 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Salsa  
Mu take on all of this is

Concrete Jungles Cause the Earth to Heat UP !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don


You are correct!

RFClark - 10-10-2024 at 05:17 AM

Here’s an interesting but technical paper on the social effects of extreme naturally occurring changes in the cycle of El Niño-Southern Oscillation (ENSO) between 900AD and 1500AD. This was well before the industrial revolution and human caused climate change is thought to have begin.

The paper documents rapid climate and sea level changes associated with ENSO over a multi hundred year period unrelated to human induced climate change effecting the Pacific Islands and PreColumbian Mexico.

While dealing primarily with the effects of the ENSO cycle on construction activity the paper does wonder if the increased co-option of resources over a long period(think increased taxes here!)by the central authorities caused the local population to replace them with a more representative and local system of government!

https://academic.oup.com/pnasnexus/article/3/10/pgae399/7795...

An interesting developement in my local climate this year

AKgringo - 10-19-2024 at 10:24 AM

I am once again living where I grew up and even when I was mainly in Alaska I was in touch with family and friends that still lived here. None of us can remember a year when the acorn crop falling from the oak trees was so heavy!

There are not only copious quantities of acorns, but they are unusually large, and the moths or other bugs that plant larvae in the developing nuts don't seem to have thrived this year.

This summer was unusually hot after a winter that was above average precipitation with low elevation snow (just like I remember as a kid).

JDCanuck - 10-19-2024 at 10:58 AM

We are expecting a wetter and cooler fall and winter than average as well as per forecasts and still filling our latest hydro reservoir expansion which will allow us to replace the imports of coal fired energy from the US once again. Time to get the snowblower tuned and the ski equipment updated as we are expecting a much increased snow pack this winter compared to last winter. Pretty much like the winters we had 40-50 years back. Right now...tons of swarming birds and far fewer insects around and as a bonus, the starfish have returned to our harbour after a multi year decline.

But perhaps the best news, especially for the indigenous fishing industry is the increased salmon returns this year following the heavy flush of spawning streams we are experiencing:
https://www.castanet.net/news/Vernon/511515/Pacific-salmon-a...

“We’ve seen returning salmon already across the Interior, including a record-breaking sockeye salmon run in the Okanagan and the return of an adult Okanagan summer Chinook to Okanagan Lake for the first time in recent history,” said Chloe Fraser, with the foundation."
Columbia River Sockeye Salmon Returns were far beyond predictions as well:
https://strikeandcatch.com/insane-columbia-river-sockeye-run...


[Edited on 10-19-2024 by JDCanuck]

ORphil - 11-30-2024 at 03:40 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  
Quote: Originally posted by ORphil  
No, no Tio. Don't dodge the main question I had. What about the CCC and the WPA building infrastructure for the common good of the people that we still enjoy today? Communism? Left to the utilities, we wouldn't have fiber optic in many rural areas that we do now due to fed dollars. Not much different from bringing electricity to the nation during the new deal.

If it makes sense to fund and alternative energy sources and programs to make the US more independent and enviromentally friendly no matter what your "beliefs" are wouldn't that be a positive endeavour? Who is the loser? Oil.

I'm a c'monist. C'mon man.


Not dodging anything comrade. Your favorite energy "alternatives" dont work and arent needed. We currently have over 100 years of fossil fuels alone.

This is about income redistribution and political control. In time, there will certainly be advancements in energy production that actually work. This just aint it.

[Edited on 7-15-2024 by Tioloco]


Reminds me of a ancient fella I used to know long since passed away. He would say "we better smoke it up before its gone"

surabi - 2-3-2025 at 04:12 PM

Like you care about wildife or pristine desert when you tear through it on your noisy fossil-fueled toys, polluting the air and earth and disturbing the wildlife.

JDCanuck - 5-10-2025 at 07:32 PM

Maybe the Politicians should stop funding their pet projects, most of which fail to produce any real advances, and instead fund all those Scientists, Engineers and youth directly and let them find the solutions without interference?
The real declines in CO2 and other pollution have come directly from the research done by Engineers in industries that they keep blaming and penalizing. LION electric in Quebec made it a whole 2 1/2 years with 500 million of public funding before it went bankrupt. I fail to see any positive result other than a lot of Electric Bus purchasers who now have no maintenance support.
It seems to me something similar happened in California when the government funded the new startup EV Bus company Proterra to compete with the existing one already making them in Lancaster. It went bankrupt with public funds even faster.



[Edited on 5-11-2025 by JDCanuck]

Tioloco - 5-10-2025 at 10:31 PM

The reality is that if USA turned off ALL carbon production, it wouldn't matter. China, India and other developing nations are full bore with dirty technology and don't care. Instead of choking American industry out, time better spent trying to convince the real climate violators how to clean up their act. Good luck with that .

JDCanuck - 5-10-2025 at 10:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  
The reality is that if USA turned off ALL carbon production, it wouldn't matter. China, India and other developing nations are full bore with dirty technology and don't care. Instead of choking American industry out, time better spent trying to convince the real climate violators how to clean up their act. Good luck with that .


Actually, China is moving far faster than the rest of the world in reducing their carbon footprint as a percentage of energy use. But they actually train and fund the Engineers and Scientists and hold them in far higher regard. Their problem was they were also at the same time growing their manufacturing energy demands far faster than anyone else.
That's why I expect most new initiatives to reduce polluting energy demand will come from them. They are actually serious about reducing waste, and their present declining oil demand is a very good indicator.
In case you haven't noticed, I'm a fuel cell (direct to Electricity from fuel source) fan. We are rapidly converting to similar power sources in Shipping, transport, military (stealthiest subs) and stationary power from pretty much every fuel available. Hydrogen, Nat Gas are the most commonly used, but we have yet to crack the direct from carbon problems in high temp 70-90% efficient carbon fuel cells. The only country I see working on it is China.


[Edited on 5-11-2025 by JDCanuck]

Tioloco - 5-10-2025 at 11:16 PM

From what I just read, as of 2023 China was the worlds biggest CO2 emitter. and was the previous few years as well.
Although I don't know how they calculate or how honest their reporting is.

China 33% of worlds CO2 pollution
USA 12%

[Edited on 5-11-2025 by Tioloco]

JDCanuck - 5-11-2025 at 12:16 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  
From what I just read, as of 2023 China was the worlds biggest CO2 emitter. and was the previous few years as well.
Although I don't know how they calculate or how honest their reporting is.

China 33% of worlds CO2 pollution
USA 12%

[Edited on 5-11-2025 by Tioloco]


That was correct at that time, although they have made huge strides in converting to electric transportation from gas and diesel in the past two years. Most people prefer to use the CO2 per capita calculation which puts China still at 2/3 per capita of the US in CO2 production. China and North America both have huge supplies of coal and this is why solid oxide fuel cells that could convert from coal to electricity(Clean Coal) directly without combustion at very high efficiencies would benefit everyone.

The newest stealthiest subs for example use Hydrogen fed fuel cells which means in addition to being very silent and sonar resistant they release next to no heat. Canada is considering buying them from Germany/Norway for that reason to hide in northern waters. The disadvantage to Nuclear is they release twice as much waste heat as they do energy.
Bloom Energy in the US is the largest solid oxide fuel cell producer and growing sales very quickly.

mtgoat666 - 5-11-2025 at 06:40 AM

CO2
Usa emits 14.2 tons per capita.
China emits 8.9 tons per capita.
Seems like china is greener than usa!

China is working on reducing their carbon footprint. Usa was once a world leader in science and tech to reduce carbon emissions. Usa under trump has created policies to try to kill reductions in carbon emissions.
Hopefully our American scientists and engineers can find work overseas working in countries that care, and then return to usa after trump is gone.

[Edited on 5-11-2025 by mtgoat666]

Tioloco - 5-11-2025 at 06:50 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  
CO2
Usa emits 14.2 tons per capita.
China emits 8.9 tons per capita.
Seems like china is greener than usa!

China is working on reducing their carbon footprint. Usa was once a world leader in science and tech to reduce carbon emissions. Usa under trump has created policies to try to kill reductions in carbon emissions.
Hopefully our American scientists and engineers can find work overseas working in countries that care, and then return to usa after trump is gone.

[Edited on 5-11-2025 by mtgoat666]


Per capita is meaningless.
Gross output is what the earth is having to handle. On an individual basis, John Kerry flying around the world "talking" about pollution created more pollution than millions of remote Chinese villagers. But his trips as Climate Czar were very productive, correct?

Again, The wealthiest most consumer driven country on the planet only produces 12% of CO2.
Climate policy clubbing Americans in the kneecap is nothing more than government mandated redistribution of wealth.
Mother Earth does NOT approve!

[Edited on 5-11-2025 by Tioloco]

JZ - 5-11-2025 at 07:24 AM

People pimping for communist China with all their human rights violations is rich.

Try going to China sometime and see what's going on for yourself. I've been a dozen times. The pollution at all their major cities is level 10 bad.

JDCanuck - 5-11-2025 at 07:29 AM

Here is an explanation of why China's oil use has likely peaked out, and the major factors:

https://www.reuters.com/markets/commodities/chinas-crude-oil...

"China in 2024 was a let down with the market expecting steady to stronger growth from 2023. Deflationary pressures and transport electrification dampened growth," said Emril Jamil, senior analyst with LSEG ahead of the data release.
China's demand for key transportation fuels barely grew in 2024, as rapid electrification of its vehicle fleet displaced gasoline while a property sector crisis and lacklustre merchandise exports crimped demand for diesel.
Analysts said China's demand for fuels, except those used as petrochemical feedstocks, peaked in 2023, as growth in aviation fuel failed to make up for the falls in gasoline and diesel.





[Edited on 5-11-2025 by JDCanuck]

Cliffy - 5-11-2025 at 09:19 AM

A couple of thoughts-
Direct to electricity fuel cells - seem like an interesting way to go

If electric vehicles are so wanted by the "world" why not let the market determine its viability rather than force it through regulations?
You know like- make a better mouse trap and the world will beat a path to your door?
Could it be that not EVERYONE thinks they want an electric vehicle?
Could it be that not everyone thinks the sky is falling?
Could it be that not everyone (including notable climate scientists) think that the world is in immanent danger?

The gorilla in the room-

What pray tell makes all the electricity that charges the electric vehicles?
Could it be dino juice?
Horse power is horse power no matter where it comes from or where it is used.
Something has to produce the horsepower. It ain't gonna be windmills

"Tilting at Windmills " Cervantes

mtgoat666 - 5-11-2025 at 12:05 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy  
A couple of thoughts-
It ain't gonna be windmills

"Tilting at Windmills " Cervantes


Wind and solar today provide over 16 percent of USA elec generation. That is huge change in just a few decades. :thumbup:

Today wind and solar are cheaper energy source than gas and coal. :thumbup::thumbup:

What’s not to like about renewable generation?

JZ - 5-11-2025 at 01:27 PM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  


Wind and solar today provide over 16 percent of USA elec generation. That is huge change in just a few decades. :thumbup:

Today wind and solar are cheaper energy source than gas and coal. :thumbup::thumbup:

What’s not to like about renewable generation?


Where do all the wind blades go after their useful life? They aren't renewable. How many birds do they kill? Why don't Dems want them anywhere near where they live? Is the energy actually being saved some where?

And then this. Obama threw billions into the toliet.


11 Years After a Celebrated Opening, Massive Solar Plant Faces a Bleak Future in the Mojave Desert
https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2025-01-30/11-years-...

If you were serious about better energy sources you'd stop posting about solar and wind and tell us about nuclear. Btw, there are so many nuclear projects and technology starting up. They are needed to power all the new AI-based data centers, etc. Microsoft is a big proponent. Trump is backing them.


mtgoat666 - 5-11-2025 at 02:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  


Wind and solar today provide over 16 percent of USA elec generation. That is huge change in just a few decades. :thumbup:

Today wind and solar are cheaper energy source than gas and coal. :thumbup::thumbup:

What’s not to like about renewable generation?


Where do all the wind blades go after their useful life? They aren't renewable.


Pee wee Dumb dumb,
Where do all the combustion residues go after the fossil fuel plant consumes the coal or oil? Where does the fossil fuel power plant equipment go after its useful life?



JZ - 5-11-2025 at 02:06 PM

Answer the other questions. Why don't rich liberals now want these things any where near them?

mtgoat666 - 5-11-2025 at 02:20 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JZ  
Why don't rich liberals now want these things any where near them?


Doesnt matter your politics, most people dont want industrial plants near their home. That’s why factories get built near poor people, and that is is why unethical pols like Trump eliminated environmental justice activities from USEPA.

Cliffy - 5-11-2025 at 03:02 PM

What kind of energy and how much does it take to build a windmill?
Why is Europe abandoning wind and solar?
How can we deliver the power needed for the coming AI revolution?
Certainly not with windmills and also - large scale solar plants are failing
what about the environmental impact of just building a large solar field?
Not just the land clearing of every living thing but also all the mining and power needed to make the solar cells? Is that being done with windmills? Hardly!

Lets consider just how much mining is needed to build millions of car batteries?
Will the mining be done with battery powered shovels?
Will the overburden be removed by battery powered dump trucks?
Will the transportation of the mined minerals be done with battery powered ships? Or battery powered trains?
Just where will the eco proponents allow all these mines to be dug?
You can't convert to battery car as a major mode of transportation without more huge mines and ore processing.
IIRC the current carbon footprint for a battery car stands at about 60,000 miles before it even gets sold.

People need to face the facts-
Not every climate scientist subscribes to the sky is falling theory
Dino juice power ain't going away anytime soon- the physics of the world generation needs preclude that from ever happening in 5 lifetimes.
Just like Gore's "the world will die in 10 years!" didn't age too well (how long go was that?)
Especially considering he had a carbon offset company that he was promoting. Maybe a little self serving?

Again the world physics for power needs just can not be met by windmills!

BTW anyone have a current picture of the palm tree that sparked this thread?

JDCanuck - 5-11-2025 at 03:14 PM

Cliffy: Europe isn't abandoning Wind and Solar, on the contrary in 2024
https://ember-energy.org/latest-insights/european-electricit...
Coal and gas power fell by 16% and 6% respectively, compared to 2023. This caused EU power sector emissions to fall by 9% to an estimated 585 million tonnes of CO2, less than half their 2007 peak.
...and...
Solar was the fastest growing EU power source in 2024, with generation 22% (+54 TWh) higher than 2023. Wind and solar together reached a record share of 29% of the EU’s power mix in 2024. This helped push renewables to nearly half (47%) of total EU electricity generation.

All the larger developed or rapidly developing nations including China are rapidly converting from petroleum and coal based power to renewables, the only exception being India where GDP growth is increasing power demands far faster than they can install renewables. The reason is it's far cheaper to do so than stick with older outmoded inefficient supplies. China is just doing it faster than we are, which is leading to even higher growth rates there.



[Edited on 5-11-2025 by JDCanuck]

mtgoat666 - 5-11-2025 at 03:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy  
What kind of energy and how much does it take to build a windmill?
Why is Europe abandoning wind and solar?
How can we deliver the power needed for the coming AI revolution?
Certainly not with windmills and also - large scale solar plants are failing
what about the environmental impact of just building a large solar field?
Not just the land clearing of every living thing but also all the mining and power needed to make the solar cells? Is that being done with windmills? Hardly!

Lets consider just how much mining is needed to build millions of car batteries?
Will the mining be done with battery powered shovels?
Will the overburden be removed by battery powered dump trucks?
Will the transportation of the mined minerals be done with battery powered ships? Or battery powered trains?
Just where will the eco proponents allow all these mines to be dug?
You can't convert to battery car as a major mode of transportation without more huge mines and ore processing.
IIRC the current carbon footprint for a battery car stands at about 60,000 miles before it even gets sold.

People need to face the facts-
Not every climate scientist subscribes to the sky is falling theory
Dino juice power ain't going away anytime soon- the physics of the world generation needs preclude that from ever happening in 5 lifetimes.
Just like Gore's "the world will die in 10 years!" didn't age too well (how long go was that?)
Especially considering he had a carbon offset company that he was promoting. Maybe a little self serving?

Again the world physics for power needs just can not be met by windmills!

BTW anyone have a current picture of the palm tree that sparked this thread?


Distributed solar, like rooftop residential is great. My net-metered house has been net positive generator for 10 years :thumbup:

Cliffy, your pessimism is just ignorant ludditism!

JDCanuck - 5-11-2025 at 04:12 PM

MTGoat: We looked at that here in Canada, and despite the much lower solar incidence it is being embraced somewhat by our neighbours. Still too long a payback for me, better putting my cash in reducing transportation costs at present. Biggest negative is extremely high installation and permit costs by the few approved installers.
Maybe if our utility costs were as high as yours it would come faster and the payback would arrive sooner?
We have done a cost comparison on our EV and so far it costs about 8 dollars in our hydro cost vs 70 in gas costs for an equivalent trip, and maintenance amounts to a cabin filter change and remote batteries, compared to additional brakes, tuneup and oil change costs on the much less used gas vehicle. I really don't understand why people are so reluctant to save money.

[Edited on 5-11-2025 by JDCanuck]

Cliffy - 5-11-2025 at 05:07 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
MTGoat: We looked at that here in Canada, and despite the much lower solar incidence it is being embraced somewhat by our neighbours. Still too long a payback for me, better putting my cash in reducing transportation costs at present. Biggest negative is extremely high installation and permit costs by the few approved installers.
Maybe if our utility costs were as high as yours it would come faster and the payback would arrive sooner?
We have done a cost comparison on our EV and so far it costs about 8 dollars in our hydro cost vs 70 in gas costs for an equivalent trip, and maintenance amounts to a cabin filter change and remote batteries, compared to additional brakes, tuneup and oil change costs on the much less used gas vehicle. I really don't understand why people are so reluctant to save money.

[Edited on 5-11-2025 by JDCanuck]


Can't disagree that for SOME the EV car is a benefit. But not for everyone.
If my driving was confined to my local town I might also look at EV cars but for reasons NOT related to "climate change"

Still no one who is a proponent of " Green" has ventured any comments on the problems with "going green" that I have brought up over the interminable
time this thread has been alive.
Everyone just wants to put their head in the sand and say those questions are not there.
Take a stand and solve the issues I have brought up
Tell us YOUR solution to those problems
You are commenting on a world wide problem (in your own mind) but offering "evidence" on a micro scale.
If its climate change you are worried about quit talking local solutions (like Europe and roof tops). Europe changing won't do diddly damn on a world wide scale of your concern. There's not enough roof tops in the world (where solar has a real chance of generating enough WHs) to make a real dent in the power needed over the next quarter century worldwide.
You can't run big city air conditioning on solar and wind in any hot climate can you? Let alone everything else that uses "power".
You can't move freight with windmills
You can't drive 1,000 foot long ships with batteries
You can't fly around the world with windmills
You can't mine the worlds minerals without dino juice
People need to face the reality of physics on a world wide scale
Dino juice ain't going away any time soon.

JDCanuck - 5-11-2025 at 05:47 PM

Cliffy: You make a lot of assumptions there. There is very simple reasoning behind my wanting to support emerging technologies to replace the coal fired thermal plants I began my career in. They are cheaper, cleaner and more efficient. The trips i talked of in my EV are 220 mile round trips and we do them about once per week on average.
So we save about 87% in energy cost every time we make the round trip. The braking is 80% energy recovered (in the city i seldom use the brake pedal to come to stops at red lights, almost never to slow to make turns) and the maintenance costs over all are much much cheaper as the motor is far less expensive and simpler than the gas engine it replaces. Performance wise it accelerates about 30% faster than the gas vehicle. The batteries have a 250,000 mile usable life expectancy, about the same as a gas engine vehicle and are 95% recyclable. I am taking about a 6 year old design here. There just isn't any downside and they keep improving, the latest from BYD can be recharged in only 5 min at the newest hi speed chargers due to their battery design improvements.


JDCanuck - 5-11-2025 at 05:58 PM

The coal fired plant I began my career in is gone...replaced by windmills producing power cheaper than it could and higher profits for the company that ran it. The newer coal fired plants they built later have been upgraded to natural gas running at higher efficiencies, far less pollution overall and producing about 40% the CO2 per unit of energy. CO2 recovery and utilization will lead to even more gains, both in costs and reduced CO2. It''s a process we all benefit by.

[Edited on 5-12-2025 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 5-11-2025 at 06:15 PM

As for solar running air conditioning in a hot climate, that's exactly what we did on our 100% solar powered home in Baja. Being off grid, the cost to install the solar was cheaper than the cost to run power in from CFE, altho it cost about 12% extra in the building cost initially. It also heated the water for a 5 bedroom home, ran the fridges and freezer, ran the induction stove and had enough excess to have charged a small EV on 240v outlet. And that was at costs well above what the equipment would cost now, 5 years later. The solar panels to provide that power occupied about 40% of our roof space.

[Edited on 5-12-2025 by JDCanuck]

Cliffy - 5-11-2025 at 06:28 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
Cliffy: You make a lot of assumptions there. There is very simple reasoning behind my wanting to support emerging technologies to replace the coal fired thermal plants I began my career in. They are cheaper, cleaner and more efficient. The trips i talked of in my EV are 220 mile round trips and we do them about once per week on average.
So we save about 87% in energy cost every time we make the round trip. The braking is 80% energy recovered (in the city i seldom use the brake pedal to come to stops at red lights, almost never to slow to make turns) and the maintenance costs over all are much much cheaper as the motor is far less expensive and simpler than the gas engine it replaces. Performance wise it accelerates about 30% faster than the gas vehicle. The batteries have a 250,000 mile usable life expectancy, about the same as a gas engine vehicle and are 95% recyclable. I am taking about a 6 year old design here. There just isn't any downside and they keep improving, the latest from BYD can be recharged in only 5 min at the newest hi speed chargers due to their battery design improvements.



I don't doubt the advantages you cite are there for EV cars Its just they are not for everyone.
I tow a lot- boat and travel trailer. EV doesn't work too well for that
I find waiting 20 to 45 mins for a charge along the road to be something I'm not interested in doing,
I can go 600 miles before I need to refuel and be done in less than 10 minutes.

Again I have to say- for an "individual" car owner it may be a perfect fit
Now scale that up by 100 million and the detractions to the technology become apparent. Supply lines for the chargers, commonality between chargers to fit each make car, where is all that power going to come from, where does the power come from for their manufacture (from cradle to grave) all these questions are tossed aside in the mantra for EVs.

Let just focus on the mining of minerals for just the batteries. Where will all the mines be if we scale up 100 million times?
How much dino juice will it take to bring the ore to the smelters?
How much dino juice will it take to smelt the ore?
How much dino juice will it take to get the refined product to the battery manufacturer?
Now the kicker- Have there been ANY new mines allowed on US soil in the last decade for battery minerals at a scale big enough to supply a massive increase in demand?

This is just one of the hurdles that proponents of EVs avoid talking about.

mtgoat666 - 5-11-2025 at 06:56 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy  
Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
Cliffy: You make a lot of assumptions there. There is very simple reasoning behind my wanting to support emerging technologies to replace the coal fired thermal plants I began my career in. They are cheaper, cleaner and more efficient. The trips i talked of in my EV are 220 mile round trips and we do them about once per week on average.
So we save about 87% in energy cost every time we make the round trip. The braking is 80% energy recovered (in the city i seldom use the brake pedal to come to stops at red lights, almost never to slow to make turns) and the maintenance costs over all are much much cheaper as the motor is far less expensive and simpler than the gas engine it replaces. Performance wise it accelerates about 30% faster than the gas vehicle. The batteries have a 250,000 mile usable life expectancy, about the same as a gas engine vehicle and are 95% recyclable. I am taking about a 6 year old design here. There just isn't any downside and they keep improving, the latest from BYD can be recharged in only 5 min at the newest hi speed chargers due to their battery design improvements.



I don't doubt the advantages you cite are there for EV cars Its just they are not for everyone.
I tow a lot- boat and travel trailer. EV doesn't work too well for that
I find waiting 20 to 45 mins for a charge along the road to be something I'm not interested in doing,
I can go 600 miles before I need to refuel and be done in less than 10 minutes.

Again I have to say- for an "individual" car owner it may be a perfect fit
Now scale that up by 100 million and the detractions to the technology become apparent. Supply lines for the chargers, commonality between chargers to fit each make car, where is all that power going to come from, where does the power come from for their manufacture (from cradle to grave) all these questions are tossed aside in the mantra for EVs.


Cliffy,
Not everyone tows a putt putt, and needs to drive a fullsize pickup to Safeway to pick up high fiber supplements for our irritable bowel. I sometimes ride my bicycle to the store to get milk, just because it keeps me from being fat and old.
Re your panic about chargers, how can you deal with your household gadgets, cameras and phones that have a dozen different chargers? You would probably experience a panic attack if you saw my kitchen drawer that probably still has an old charger for a nokia flip phone :lol:

JDCanuck - 5-11-2025 at 07:58 PM

Cliffy: I can only speak for my area where our power comes almost exclusively from hydro dams at 97% renewable overall, which makes it fairly cheap. Quebec and New Brunswick presently export power to the upper US East Coast at wholesale prices just above .04 per kwh...cheaper yet and also primarily hydro sourced. I have no idea where the US manufacturers of LiFePO4 batteries get their lithium from as China very busily tied up the majority of global mines producing it and that may be one of the reasons their LiFePO4 batteries are so much cheaper. 5 min recharges won't be a big problem, I think you missed that one. As for heavy duty trucks with longer distances, BYD this past year grew their global EV haulers sales by over 1100%, so quite a few people must find them attractive. It's hard to keep up as they are improving faster than I ever thought they would.
But here's a link for April sales figures:

https://cleantechnica.com/2025/04/03/byd-commercial-truck-sa...

The only BYD plant presently in the US is n Lancaster and employs about 500 unionized employees manufacturing a range of bus styles for the US and Canada markets. It might be worthwhile to get them to add a passenger/commercial vehicle plant considering their expertise and range of choices

https://cleantechnica.com/2025/05/09/byd-electric-truck-sale...


[Edited on 5-12-2025 by JDCanuck]

PaulW - 5-12-2025 at 08:00 AM

JD Canuck
Did you know that LFP batteries and more lithium than NMC batteries.

The reason LFP batteries are cheaper does not have to do with lithium content.

Cliffy - 5-12-2025 at 08:09 AM


Cliffy,
Not everyone tows a putt putt, and needs to drive a fullsize pickup to Safeway to pick up high fiber supplements for our irritable bowel. I sometimes ride my bicycle to the store to get milk, just because it keeps me from being fat and old.
Re your panic about chargers, how can you deal with your household gadgets, cameras and phones that have a dozen different chargers? You would probably experience a panic attack if you saw my kitchen drawer that probably still has an old charger for a nokia flip phone :lol:Text


Agreed that it is not for everyone just as I have said For some it is a perfect fit. The problem comes in when we scale up. Not against the technology just the implementation ramifications and reasoning.

Why make it regulatory and mandate acceptance if it is such a good idea?
Why mandate it and not address the down the road costs to implement it?

Chargers ? I'm referring to to electrical supply lines for all the chargers when scaled up 100 million times - the power has to come from somewhere and our current supply grid is not big enough to supply that amount of power Physics again.

To make a dent in the car market you will need 100 million EVs as there are about 300 million registered vehicles in the US alone.

Hydro power is great BUT when was last hydro dam built? In the USA we are tearing down dams.

As to another question I posed years ago- Can anyone find a report from ANY windmill field operator that shows on a daily basis the generating LOAD produced by each windmill year round? Combine that with a report showing produced power vs designed power limit (how much electricity does a field produce compared to how much it was designed to produce ((by the hour year round)). Just how efficient is a windmill field? Does anyone really have accurate facts except internal documents kept by the field operators?
I've been looking for years for such info and it just isn't published.

How much does each windmill actually produce year round?

How about efficiency-

Are we producing lots of WHs of power with very inefficient generators there by just supporting a manufacturing process rather than the design goal- to lower world emissions?

What is the emissions footprint of the manufacturing process for windmills?
From cradle to grave. How will we get rid of all those blades?
Does anyone know? Just more unanswered questions-
now scale it up a million times!
Physics again - where do we put all these windmills? Al Gore doesn't want one in his back yard either.
Has anyone here ever flown across the USA low enough to see all the windmills and how they detract from the landscape? I have many times.

Now follow the same thought process as above for solar panels and scale it up a million times- does no one see a problem here?

Not really against the ideas just no one addresses the bigger picture down the line- the physics involved to scale up to what is being pushed

Its treated as a laissez-faire attitude by everyone when its the gorilla in the room.








JDCanuck - 5-12-2025 at 08:32 PM

Cliffy: My apologies but I just can't answer your questions as fast as you ask them. You will just have to do your own research. Heres my experience on EV's: It costs long term with no rebates less than 50% for ten years or 150,000 miles to run an EV compared to my gas vehicle. Breakeven comes at around 3 years with the present new cost differentials factored in, immediately if you buy a 2-3 yr old one as they depreciate far faster due to technological changes.

A solar powered 5 bedroom 2800 sq ft fully electric home with backup gas generator in Baja and capable of delivering on average 60KWH per day of power for a 5 bedroom fully electric home and 30kwh battery storage and 2 1/2 tons of air conditioning would cost you today an extra 30,000 dollars professionally installed and take up 1000 sq ft of roof space for panels. No costs to run power lines or poles to an off grid home and no worries about the grid going down.

Amazon can likely tell you all the reasons why they are converting to electric delivery vans, and transit systems why they are converting to electric buses globally. My guess is they are cheaper long term and enhance their profits.

Utilities are shutting down coal fired plants and replacing them with windmills because they are cheaper to install and operate for the power they produce than any other alternatives and they make more money with them long term. Our company began installing theirs 40 years ago and they are still producing power. They could probably tell you why they did it if you called them.

[Edited on 5-13-2025 by JDCanuck]

mtgoat666 - 5-13-2025 at 11:50 AM

To answer a few of cliffy’s silly questions…

Utility-scale wind and Pv generation is lower cost energy than gas, oil or coal plants.

EVs charged from the grid are more efficient energywise than ICE.

The rivian electric delivery vans are great. Talking to my local amazon drivers, they all love the vans.

Renewable energy is the future. Quit complaining about it.

Average unsubsidized levelized cost of electricity in the United States. With increasingly widespread implementation of sustainable energy sources, costs for sustainable have declined, most notably for energy generated by solar panels. Cheapest source of fossil fuel generation is double the cost of utility-scale solar. Solar levelized cost of electricity (LCOE) has fallen to $29 to $92 per MWh, said a report from Lazard.










for Cliffy's light reading:
https://www.lazard.com/media/gjyffoqd/lazards-lcoeplus-june-...

[Edited on 5-13-2025 by mtgoat666]

JDCanuck - 5-17-2025 at 09:35 AM

Fortunately, there are still a few companies in the US that are continuing to cash in on the green industry growth globally. Take a look at the growth in the GE spinoff GE Vernova GEV for instance. Not everyone is opposed to wind power or increasingly cleaner natural gas combined cycle power production.
https://www.gevernova.com/news/press-releases/ge-vernova-ann...


[Edited on 5-17-2025 by JDCanuck]

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