BajaNomad

BEV's, Hybrids and/or Independent Solar in Baja

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oxxo - 6-17-2024 at 12:42 PM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  

The problem with touchscreens is that you must take your eyes off the road to use them. My gas car (2018) has a combination of controls. The commonly used controls, like air conditioning, sound system volume, radio station select, and others, are good old-fashioned buttons/dials. I can make adjustments without looking.


I have used a touch screen on my car for 6 years now. Actually I pay MORE attention to the road with a touch screen than with buttons and knobs. The touch screens on new BEVs are the size of 15" to 17" laptops and are located to the upper right of the steering wheel. Even though much of my adjustments are done through "muscle memory" (like i used to do with problematic buttons and dials) I can easily make any adjustments while keeping my focus on BOTH the road and screen in my line of sight. It does take a couple of days to get used to it, but once you do, you never want to go back to buttons and dials.

oxxo - 6-17-2024 at 01:06 PM

Quote: Originally posted by surfhat  
I can't recall where at the moment, but a similar discussion about EV's claimed because of the battery weight, the tires were polluting the roadway by wearing out prematurely and leaving rubber tire parts behind on the roadways and this was reason enough to discount EV's earth friendly properties.

Really? I'm afraid so. I thought it was a ridiculous reason to never buy an EV and call them unfriendly to Mother Earth.

Thanks Nomads for a lively discussion with a minimal amount of denial bs from the usual suspects. haha


Yes, BEVs tend to be heavier than a comparable ICE vehicle because of the weight of the traction batteries. HOWEVER, new technology is producing lighter batteries with longer range and tire technology is now takng BEVs seriously by producing tires with equal or longer life than a comparable ICE vehicle. And of course, ICE vehicles never "leave rubber tire parts" on the road or off road out in the desert! (snark)

Leaving rubber tire parts on the road by BEVs is false and an urban legend.

After 6 years, the front windshield on my son-in-laws Tesla suddenly cracked this last Saturday! OMG, ALL BEVs are subject to cracked windshields!!! Well, truth be told, he clearly saw a large bolt come flying through the air and hit him square in the middle of his windshield. He was peeed but resigned to buy a new windshield.

Okay, who wants to claim that BEVs are subject to catch fire? I'm ready!

surabi - 6-17-2024 at 01:22 PM

I once had a freak accident in my son-in-law's car that he had loaned me for a few hours. I was driving along a two lane road, in fairly heavy Saturday traffic, when a pickup coming from the other direction had an unsecured wheelbarrow fly off the back of his truck, straight at my windshield. Had there not been an adequate shoulder to swerve onto, and my reactions not been quick when I saw that airborne wheelbarrow coming straight at me, I would have probably been dead or seriously injured. It hit the edge of the windsheld, cracking it, took out the side view mirror and scraped along the driver's and rear passenger door before falling to the road.

The driver didn't even realize what had happened- he just saw the wheelbarrow fly off in his rear view mirror, didn't see it hit me, pulled over to retreive it, and when I yelled out at him, he said, "It's okay, I'm getting my wheelbarrow". I said, "It's not okay- you just totalled my son-in-law's car, and almost killed me!". He was really shocked, but turned out to be a nice guy. We drove to the cop shop together, which was only 2 blocks away, rather than call and wait, and he accepted full responsibilty for an unsecured load.

[Edited on 6-17-2024 by surabi]

[Edited on 6-17-2024 by surabi]

SFandH - 6-17-2024 at 03:31 PM

Quote: Originally posted by oxxo  


Okay, who wants to claim that BEVs are subject to catch fire? I'm ready!


You're really on the soapbox. Electron Evangelist OXXO. I don't think anybody here is anti-BEV. They seem to work well and are getting better, cheaper, and the infrastructure is expanding.

But, I have a question about used BEVs. Let's say there are two used BEVs, same year, make, model, and mileage. Could there be a big difference in the life left in the battery packs because of different charging routines?



[Edited on 6-17-2024 by SFandH]

JDCanuck - 6-17-2024 at 03:48 PM

Just checked at Maranatha campground in La Paz and they do provide full recharge of electric vehicles at 500 pesos using their 50 amp 240v chargers which amounts to about 6 hours for most vehicles like Teslas if you have the adapter to plug in. If you RV there, the overnight cost with 50a 240v power to run your RV accessories and including water and sewage hookups is 720 pesos, if you hook up to a 30 amp, its 600 pesos with water and sewer. I found these prices on the low end compared to other RV campgrounds.
Temperatures right now are running 38 c during the day, so I'm sure almost everyone is using the RV AC units to the max.

AKgringo - 6-17-2024 at 03:49 PM

About a year ago, I was buying fuel at a local bulk plant when a tow truck with a Tesla onboard pulled up across from me. It wasn't wrecked but had high centered on some ornamental rock work bordering his driveway.

I don't know the age of the Tesla, but it was being totaled because repairs would exceed the value of the vehicle.

JDCanuck - 6-17-2024 at 03:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by oxxo  
Quote: Originally posted by surfhat  
I can't recall where at the moment, but a similar discussion about EV's claimed because of the battery weight, the tires were polluting the roadway by wearing out prematurely and leaving rubber tire parts behind on the roadways and this was reason enough to discount EV's earth friendly properties.

Really? I'm afraid so. I thought it was a ridiculous reason to never buy an EV and call them unfriendly to Mother Earth.

Thanks Nomads for a lively discussion with a minimal amount of denial bs from the usual suspects. haha


Yes, BEVs tend to be heavier than a comparable ICE vehicle because of the weight of the traction batteries. HOWEVER, new technology is producing lighter batteries with longer range and tire technology is now takng BEVs seriously by producing tires with equal or longer life than a comparable ICE vehicle. And of course, ICE vehicles never "leave rubber tire parts" on the road or off road out in the desert! (snark)

Leaving rubber tire parts on the road by BEVs is false and an urban legend.

After 6 years, the front windshield on my son-in-laws Tesla suddenly cracked this last Saturday! OMG, ALL BEVs are subject to cracked windshields!!! Well, truth be told, he clearly saw a large bolt come flying through the air and hit him square in the middle of his windshield. He was peeed but resigned to buy a new windshield.

Okay, who wants to claim that BEVs are subject to catch fire? I'm ready!


I checked my Leaf weight and it was comparable to an equivalent gas powered SUV with the same torque, so really is not an issue there. And SF&H: yes of course, depending on how it was charged so when you buy used you will want to check thee battery condition before you make your decision.

[Edited on 6-18-2024 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 6-17-2024 at 04:07 PM

Any new to you vehicle has idiosyncracies you need to learn. I am presently driving a 2005 Toyota Camry and its making me appreciate my Leaf for simplicity of controls and operation. The biggest issue to now has been holding this ICE vehicle on a hill and then driving off either in drive or reverse. The Camry will drift downhill as soon as you begin to release the brake, the Leaf is rock still as it senses the grade and doesn't move til you hit the accelerator. Some friends have stated their IC vehicles will do this as well.
Also, almost all common controls are located on the steering wheel, but in addition can be accessed through the display. Exceptions are setting up blutooth audio controls, linking your phone etc. but you are unlikely to be doing this while driving. The only thing you might access while driving is your route map display. The audio directions come in audibly.


[Edited on 6-17-2024 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 6-17-2024 at 04:18 PM

By the way, if any of you has used GPS Google maps on the freeways in audio mode lately should appreciate the announcement of speed traps ahead and also that it monitors your actual speed and not the often inaccurate speed displayed on your speedometer. When driving at 80mph through Utah, we found it a huge advantage.

oxxo - 6-17-2024 at 04:20 PM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  
[
But, I have a question about used BEVs. Let's say there are two used BEVs, same year, make, model, and mileage. Could there be a big difference in the life left in the battery packs because of different charging routines?


Oh yes, there could be a major difference. BEV traction batteries work best when they are charged to 70% to 80% of maximum, UNLESS you will be embarking on a long trip and leaving within a couple of hours, then you should charge to 100% (this is the strategy I use). The quickest way to ruin a traction battery pack is to charge it to 100% and leave it parked for a couple of days. So, the condition of that battery pack compared to a model with equal mileage will depend on how that traction battery packed was charged/maintained over those miles. Always best to require a test of of that battery pack on any used BEV. FWIW, used Teslas marketed through Tesla includes a Service Center check of the battery condition with a written report, but those used cars are more expensive. Worst alternative is buying a used BEV from a used car dealer who bought the car at auction with NO guarantee on the battery.

Interesting both my laptop and cell phone have a "battery saver" mode which limits my charging to 60% on the laptop and 80% on the cell phone. I use both to prolong battery life.

oxxo - 6-17-2024 at 04:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo  

I don't know the age of the Tesla, but it was being totaled because repairs would exceed the value of the vehicle.


I saw a newer Toyota once on a flatbed with no visible damage anywhere. It was being totaled because the cost of repairs exceeded the value of the car. The tow driver mumbled something about engine and cv joints.

mtgoat666 - 6-17-2024 at 04:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by oxxo  
Quote: Originally posted by SFandH  
[
But, I have a question about used BEVs. Let's say there are two used BEVs, same year, make, model, and mileage. Could there be a big difference in the life left in the battery packs because of different charging routines?


Oh yes, there could be a major difference. BEV traction batteries work best when they are charged to 70% to 80% of maximum, UNLESS you will be embarking on a long trip and leaving within a couple of hours, then you should charge to 100% (this is the strategy I use). The quickest way to ruin a traction battery pack is to charge it to 100% and leave it parked for a couple of days. So, the condition of that battery pack compared to a model with equal mileage will depend on how that traction battery packed was charged/maintained over those miles. Always best to require a test of of that battery pack on any used BEV. FWIW, used Teslas marketed through Tesla includes a Service Center check of the battery condition with a written report, but those used cars are more expensive. Worst alternative is buying a used BEV from a used car dealer who bought the car at auction with NO guarantee on the battery.

Interesting both my laptop and cell phone have a "battery saver" mode which limits my charging to 60% on the laptop and 80% on the cell phone. I use both to prolong battery life.


I often fill my ICE car with fuel, to the top, 100%, and no damage to my car! :bounce: Sure is inconvenient that a fill up of an EV damages the battery so you only fill up to 70% :wow: But at least you got a screen and can watch Netflix while having to fill up more frequently with little charges.

So a battery advertised with 300 mile range can only be filled up 70 percent, so actual useable range is 210 miles, eh?

[Edited on 6-17-2024 by mtgoat666]

[Edited on 6-17-2024 by mtgoat666]

SFandH - 6-17-2024 at 05:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
And SF&H: yes of course, depending on how it was charged so when you buy used you will want to check thee battery condition before you make your decision.


How do you do that, and how do you know what's good vs. bad?

What's needed is a battery version of an ICE compression check.

[Edited on 6-18-2024 by SFandH]

JDCanuck - 6-17-2024 at 05:44 PM

We charge our EV regularly at lowered wattage to 100% all the time and our range has actually increased very slightly from where it was when we bought the car used. I have no idea how you would check your battery deterioration but am sure someone will come up with a quick method to do so similar to how they test the state of your 12v batteries. We would not charge on a DC high wattage charger from 10-100% and we will stop the high wattage DC charge at 80%, then if needed would plug into our 120v 12 amp charge at home to bring it up to 100%. In 4 months of use, we have never needed a high wattage DC charge yet, but I did try one out for 15 min just to see how it worked.

JDCanuck - 6-17-2024 at 05:52 PM

If I were one of those people who have severe misgivings, I would buy a 3 yr old used EV with maybe 30,000 to 40,000 miles on it. Price should be about 50-60% of new since Hertz dumped a whole lot on the market and the batteries should last 6 to 10 more years at above 80% of full capacity based on warranties. If it gets below that in the next 5 years the manufacturer will replace it. Give me an IC manufacturer that warranties a new drive train past 5 years let alone 8 years.
But even at 80% capacity in 6 years, a 300 mile range will be above 240 miles, which was what the Leafs could do brand new in 2023.
Our only regret so far is we bought a used Leaf rather than a used Tesla. There simply weren't any used Teslas listed for a reasonable used price. Tesla is staying up to date and expanding their capabilities for previous buyers without extra costs to the purchaser. Leafs on the other hand, you get what you paid for initially and are left on your own for upgrades.

[Edited on 6-18-2024 by JDCanuck]

oxxo - 6-17-2024 at 06:28 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
Price should be about 50% of new and the batteries should last 6 to 10 more years at above 80% of full capacity based on warranties. If it gets below that in the next 5 years the manufacturer will replace it..


I don't know anything about other BEV mfg manufacturer warranties. I know specifically about TESLA battery warranty. Tesla traction batteries are guaranteed to be at 70% of maximum capacity after 100K miles and then the warranty terminates. Less than 100K miles and less than 70% of capacity, you get a totally new traction battery pack under warranty (which is currently about $10K to replace on a Tesla vehicle without warranty). Some Tesla BEVs are still going strong after over 200K miles and more, as a result of responsible traction battery maintenance/charging.

So, it is important to determine what the health is of your traction batteries are before buying a used BEV. It is not that difficult, it just requires some personal responsibility, and we're here to help.

oxxo - 6-17-2024 at 06:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  

Our only regret so far is we bought a used Leaf rather than a used Tesla. There simply weren't any used Teslas listed for a reasonable used price. Tesla is staying up to date and expanding their capabilities for previous buyers without extra costs to the purchaser.


After about 70K miles, my car is BETTER than when i bought it new new (and also less expensive compared to a new one of equal specs) as a result of of included OTA upgrades over 6 years. Tesla's are in the middle as far as premium vehicles resale are concerned. You get what you pay for. Would I buy a used Tesla? I doubt it. I can afford to buy a new Tesla, get an obscene resale value, for less than what I paid for mine with significant improvements (like dual pane windows to make the cars even quieter than my 6 y.o. car).
Quote:
Leafs on the other hand, you get what you paid for initially and are left on your own for upgrades

In most cases , like mine, OTA improvements are at no additional cost, which occur in the middle of the night while I sleep, about twice a month. Twice a month it's like opening an Easter Basket in the morning!

cupcake - 6-19-2024 at 03:05 PM

This article speaks to possible near-term improvements in EV batteries and motors.

A Radical New Magnet Without Rare-Earth Metals Is About to Change Motors Forever
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/technology/a-radical-new-magn...

oxxo - 6-19-2024 at 06:01 PM

Yesterday, I drove 2.5 hours to a work destination. When I started out, my U.I. (User Interface screen) said I would arrive with 38% charge of electrons left in the "tank." MY BEV LIED TO ME!!! Time to sell my BEV! I actually arrived with 39% left in the "tank." :P And these are 6 y.o. old traction batteries!

[Edited on 6-20-2024 by oxxo]

JDCanuck - 6-19-2024 at 06:27 PM

I am starting to see a significant number of Teslas here in La Paz. I have not yet had the opportunity to ask them where they are charging, but based on Maranatha Campgrounds report, there are a few charging there and paying the relatively high rate of 500 pesos for a 2/3 full charge, or 250 pesos per 100 miles. Maranatha tells me they use this service to raise funds for their community support activities.
I am assuming the others are charging mainly at home chargers on 240v 50A chargers at the going CFE rates as i seldom see them charging at the free sites or indeed the other paid sites I often drive by.

The previous (2020 Before they boosted rates) unsubsidized power rates in Baja wee quoted as being .19/kwh (USD) which was 1.5 times what we pay for our highest tier using 97% renewable power in Canada. It seems all this diesel generated power in Baja is not really that cheap at present. It may be a long time before EVs get attractive as an alternative in Baja unless power supplies can be reduced in price.


[Edited on 6-20-2024 by JDCanuck]

EVs have been around a lot longer than I thought

AKgringo - 6-19-2024 at 07:05 PM

About a hundred years longer! https://www.motorcities.org/story-of-the-week/2022/the-detro...

JDCanuck - 6-19-2024 at 07:32 PM

Thanks AKGringo:, from that link you provided:

The Detroit Electric claimed it could run up to 80 miles on a single charge and reach a speed of 25 miles per hour, making it very city-friendly. One of its vehicles reportedly achieved 211 miles on one charge.

The popularity of electric vehicles began to wane after the invention of the electric starter by Charles Kettering made gasoline internal combustion easier to operate and more reliable. Manufacturing advances by companies like Ford also led to lower prices for gasoline-powered cars. A 1914 Ford Model T was priced under $500, and a comparable Detroit Electric cost four times as much. World War I between the years of 1914 and 1918 also caused major price increases for copper and lead, key resources used in battery production, driving electric prices even higher.

After the war, Detroit Electric shifted its focus to the production of electric delivery vehicles, which were still popular after the decline of the car business. They also continued in the production of bodies for other area automakers during the 1920s.

The Great Depression proved to be the final challenge that could not be overcome, and the last of 35,000 Detroit Electrics made was assembled in 1939.

oxxo - 6-19-2024 at 08:33 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
It may be a long time before EVs get attractive as an alternative in Baja unless power supplies can be reduced in price.


Anyone in Baja who is smart enough to purchase a BEV will be smart enough to install solar panels on their property to recharge their BEV, power their house utilities and air conditioning, all for FREE, non-polluting, power from the ever-present sun. This is not rocket science. Screw CFE, PGE, Edison, SDPE, etc.!

JDCanuck - 6-19-2024 at 09:21 PM

Well, yes, those high power costs when you hit top tier certainly encourage that especially if you have air conditioning and certainly if you have an EV with V2L for emergency power for essential loads when CFE goes down as it does frequently in storms. It seems Baja has all the right ingredients to do so, even without the subsidies common in the US. BYD EVs with V2L without punitive tariffs is pushing the adoption as they come in at about the same price as a regular economy IC vehicle.
A BYD Dolphin Mini at 25000 USD in Mexico would now cost 50000 in the US thanks to tariffs to keep them out.
Similarly, the BYD Shark 4wd offered at 56,000 to compete with less capable Toyotas and Fords will now be 112,000 in the US.

[Edited on 6-20-2024 by JDCanuck]

surabi - 6-19-2024 at 09:58 PM

Quote: Originally posted by oxxo  


Anyone in Baja who is smart enough to purchase a BEV will be smart enough to install solar panels on their property to recharge their BEV, power their house utilities and air conditioning, all for FREE, non-polluting, power from the ever-present sun. This is not rocket science.


It takes more than being smart, it takes money. A whole house solar system, installed, isn't cheap. Then if you are totally off-grid and use batteries for power storage, the batteries require maintenance. If you feed into the grid, you don't have any electricity when the CFE power goes out and the sun isn't shining.
No system is free.

Tioloco - 6-19-2024 at 10:46 PM

Quote: Originally posted by oxxo  
Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
It may be a long time before EVs get attractive as an alternative in Baja unless power supplies can be reduced in price.


Anyone in Baja who is smart enough to purchase a BEV will be smart enough to install solar panels on their property to recharge their BEV, power their house utilities and air conditioning, all for FREE, non-polluting, power from the ever-present sun. This is not rocket science. Screw CFE, PGE, Edison, SDPE, etc.!


So what do you do when you have rainy/cloudy weather or hardware issues with your solar? Still tell CFE to get screwed? Genuinely curious if you have thought about your reliance on these evil doers?

JDCanuck - 6-19-2024 at 11:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  
Quote: Originally posted by oxxo  
Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
It may be a long time before EVs get attractive as an alternative in Baja unless power supplies can be reduced in price.


Anyone in Baja who is smart enough to purchase a BEV will be smart enough to install solar panels on their property to recharge their BEV, power their house utilities and air conditioning, all for FREE, non-polluting, power from the ever-present sun. This is not rocket science. Screw CFE, PGE, Edison, SDPE, etc.!


So what do you do when you have rainy/cloudy weather or hardware issues with your solar? Still tell CFE to get screwed? Genuinely curious if you have thought about your reliance on these evil doers?


We have no CFE power to our house, only solar. For us, the cost of solar was significantly cheaper than running additional power poles and transformers. This is why we have batteries to cover a few days of cloudy/rainy weather or some other backup. We had solar for 4 years and never had no power. If you have a V2L EV, you can run necessary power from the batteries in it. The F-150 Lightning will run a typical US house power for 3-10 days for instance. Our neighbors stored their food in our fridge for the time CFE was down as they had no solar or backup.
As for hardware issues, I call the installer and he comes up and fixes the problem. This did happen once in 4 years due to a loose connection, but was not disastrous.

What do you do when the power goes out for a couple weeks? Just curious...how long will your generator if you have one supply the power before you need to get to town over the flooded roads and get more fuel, or do you have an extra large fuel tank on the property to cover that??



[Edited on 6-20-2024 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 6-20-2024 at 12:10 AM

Solar today is really reliable. Commonly, you have 2 parallel 120v strings, each with it's own charge controller and inverter. These two 180 degrees phase shifted 120v lines feed your house power panel, which gives you split phase 240v power or 120v from both sides of the panel, pretty much the same as a CFE 240v supply. If one inverter went down for some disastrous reason, you would lose the 240 but would still have the 120 on one side.
Any necessary 120v power(fridges, freezers, Cpap machines) can be supplied from that side, generally through a receptacle and extension cord. You could lose any 240v electric stove, your electric dryer, 240v ac units or your welder until you get the second string repaired.
If I was presently paying more than .20 per kwh of power and living in Baja where solar is extremely good, I would consider installing enough solar to bring my power use down below the top unsubsidized tier. Costs are a whole lot less than they used to be, and you would not need the batteries for backup an off grid system requires. The solar power is most available at the same time any air conditioners are drawing heavily so it seems a natural fit. A 5kw system in Baja typically produces 25-30kwh per day, maybe only 15kwh in the coolest part of winter, when the days are shorter and AC is not needed.

[Edited on 6-20-2024 by JDCanuck]

Tioloco - 6-20-2024 at 12:23 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
Quote: Originally posted by Tioloco  
Quote: Originally posted by oxxo  
Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
It may be a long time before EVs get attractive as an alternative in Baja unless power supplies can be reduced in price.


Anyone in Baja who is smart enough to purchase a BEV will be smart enough to install solar panels on their property to recharge their BEV, power their house utilities and air conditioning, all for FREE, non-polluting, power from the ever-present sun. This is not rocket science. Screw CFE, PGE, Edison, SDPE, etc.!


So what do you do when you have rainy/cloudy weather or hardware issues with your solar? Still tell CFE to get screwed? Genuinely curious if you have thought about your reliance on these evil doers?


We have no CFE power to our house, only solar. For us, the cost of solar was significantly cheaper than running additional power poles and transformers. This is why we have batteries to cover a few days of cloudy/rainy weather or some other backup. We had solar for 4 years and never had no power. If you have a V2L EV, you can run necessary power from the batteries in it. The F-150 Lightning will run a typical US house power for 3-10 days for instance. Our neighbors stored their food in our fridge for the time CFE was down as they had no solar or backup.
As for hardware issues, I call the installer and he comes up and fixes the problem. This did happen once in 4 years due to a loose connection, but was not disastrous.

What do you do when the power goes out for a couple weeks? Just curious...how long will your generator if you have one supply the power before you need to get to town over the flooded roads and get more fuel, or do you have an extra large fuel tank on the property to cover that??



[Edited on 6-20-2024 by JDCanuck]


In USA on grid, I have a backup generator for emergencies to power fridge and essentials. Luckily, only needed it for 1 1/2 days about 10 years ago.

In Baja, house is total solar/batteries (off grid). Use generator to run A/C when necessary and to top off battery bank when overcast and not producing electricity. Must be vigilant on power usage/ conservation as power is not on-grid.

JDCanuck - 6-20-2024 at 12:44 AM

Our area lost CFE for 2 weeks first time, just 1 week the second time in 4 years following storms. In Canada, we can lose power during ice storms generally for 1 to 2 weeks, so small backup generators are not the best answer, especially since the fueling stations will all be down. An F-150 Lightning truck tho, or any other high capacity BEV with V2L (vehicle to load) can be used to power emergency equipment. Even just 70kwh battery storage will go a long way during power outages. If I have my figures right, an F-150 Lightning has up to 220kwh battery storage. My house (5 bedroom) highest power demand in the coldest part of winter drew 61kwh per day with everything running on electric. All we would need to power in an emergency is our forced air gas furnace, our gas hot water heater and three fridges. Not a big power demand, and easily supplied from any BEV with V2L for a very long time. Not having any power in the coldest part of winter tho would be disastrous.

oxxo - 6-20-2024 at 05:24 AM

Quote: Originally posted by surabi  

It takes more than being smart, it takes money. A whole house solar system, installed, isn't cheap. Then if you are totally off-grid and use batteries for power storage, the batteries require maintenance. If you feed into the grid, you don't have any electricity when the CFE power goes out and the sun isn't shining.
No system is free.


Yes, it does take money up front to purchase a solar system and a "new" BEV car. However, the breakeven, payback, period in California is about 5 years and the cost of solar continues to plunge, while the cost of grid electricity continue to escalate. I cannot speak specifically to the breakeven point in Mexico, but others on this thread can.

True, old technology uses lead acid batteries (or similar) for backup in Mexico which requires regular maintenance. However, new technology like the Tesla Power Wall uses maintenance free batteries. Technology is changing in this rapidly expanding industry. And if your system is independent of the grid and you have battery backup, you will have an independent source of personal energy even though your neighbor on CFE, is without power for several days.

Yes, it does take an investment up front that is quickly returned in a relatively short period of time, and getting shorter. Yes, the energy produced from the sun is FREE, but the investment to purchase the equipment is not FREE, at least initially. The question becomes how much is it worth to me, personally, to invest in the future of our progeny. Do I want to leave the Earth a better place than I found it, at least climatically?

I grieve for those in Mexico who are currently being flooded by Hurricane Albert. Although my home in Mexico is on high ground, I will never be flooded. But the prediction of increased hurricane intensity and frequency in my area, has motivated me to sell my place before it gets a lot worse.

JDCanuck - 6-20-2024 at 07:12 AM

Some people have been swapping out their old Lead Acid batteries with partially depleted EV batteries for storage if they are really trying to cut costs. Presently available LiFePO4 batteries are more stable, last longer (6000 90% discharges) and require zero maintenance other than the programs built into the charge controllers to extend their lives to the maximum. They will cost far less over the next 10 years of use than Lead acid and still be going strong for the next 8.
If you are investing in solar storage batteries checking out the specs against pricing before you buy is well worth it.
If you are into DIY this guy on Youtube has been putting out multiple explanatory DIY system designs using any number of different components. Here's one that was relatively cheap, easy to install and would handle a single AC unit or a limited number of appliances. The LiFePO4 battery shown in this video is quite similar to mine, only where it has 1 I had 10 installed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adFGmOlDM-Y
As I preferred to have a very robust well designed system I didn't have to worry about, I paid slightly more for a good installer to design and install the whole system to match my anticipated needs and allow for easy expansion in the future.



[Edited on 6-20-2024 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 6-20-2024 at 04:49 PM

What most people are unaware of is there are differences in Lithium Ion (most EV batteries) and the newer far more robust and safer LiFePO4 batteries. The LiFePO4 have come way down in price and will handle far more 90% discharge cycles. Here is a brief comparison:

https://www.anker.com/blogs/others/lifepo4-vs-lithium-ion

Even among LiFePO4 batteries there has developed a huge difference in ones supplied by different manufacturers. Lower quality ones are rated for 3000 cycles, while the newer higher quality ones exceed 6000 cycles. That's a difference between about 9 years and 18 years. Oddly there is very little difference in cost...get the 6000 cycle plus ones.

A more detailed explanation of why LiFePO4 became the better choice for stationary storage and even now in EV's is available here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery



[Edited on 6-21-2024 by JDCanuck]

oxxo - 6-20-2024 at 05:50 PM

And JD, this is only the tip of the iceberg! There are even newer technologies that will far exceed what we consider today as "advanced technology." Regardless of whether anyone thinks climate change is man made or just a normal variation of Earth's cycles, Solar dependence as a free source of power in the future, will be the energy format for the foreseeable future. Those that want to cling to their outmoded, petroleum based dependence, because change is so scary to them :o , will be dragged along, kicking and screaming in protest, as they are brought into the future.

JDCanuck - 6-20-2024 at 08:25 PM

If you read that LiFePO4 article at Wikipedia you will note the other pollution causing rare earth elements that existed in previous lithium ion batteries have been reduced or eliminated which is one of the major drives behind new battery tech. The Lithium itself has not, so we look forward to new battery tech that deals with that issue as well. Since these batteries are 95% recyclable at present, we have at least dealt with that issue. I am not sure where the new solid state batteries are going but it really wont be that long before LiFePO4 goes the way of NICad. So far the reductions in actual lithium mining needs have been accomplished by making them last longer (500 cycles to up to 10000 cycles) and finding ways to reuse or recycle them. Effectively, this means the amount of lithium needed to be mined to store and release a fixed amount of energy has been reduced by a factor of 20 before recycling the contained lithium. Presently, the amount of lithium by weight in any lithium battery is approximately 7%. Solid States are expected to handle far more cycles and again double the capacity from present Lithium Ion chemistries. The remaining question is WHO will be responsible for the recycling at life end.



[Edited on 6-21-2024 by JDCanuck]

oxxo - 6-20-2024 at 08:37 PM

@Lencho is correct about Lithium (which was an improvement over lead acid batteries) but it was an interim and necessary step. As JD says above, the future of batteries is in Solid State which is a big improvement in all aspects of battery production. Solid State will be the pro-forma configuration in batteries until a newer and more advanced technology is discovered and developed.

JDCanuck - 6-21-2024 at 11:53 AM

Quote: Originally posted by oxxo  
@Lencho is correct about Lithium (which was an improvement over lead acid batteries) but it was an interim and necessary step. As JD says above, the future of batteries is in Solid State which is a big improvement in all aspects of battery production. Solid State will be the pro-forma configuration in batteries until a newer and more advanced technology is discovered and developed.


If you look at the configuration of the Lithium modules used in EV's you will see each module is comprised of multiple small cells all linked together to form each module. The modules are then combined to make the battery pack that is installed in the EV.

I have seen video of an enterprising person who purchased a used battery pack, traced down the poor module and replaced it to bring the pack back up to original specs. He then installed this cheap pack in an older used Leaf to upgrade the pack to 62 kwh from the original much smaller pack it was initially sold with. A lot of work on his part, but i have to admire his willingness to keep another car out of the wreckers and on the road with enhanced capabilities.

Ateo - 6-21-2024 at 02:31 PM

Update: maybe this is already known, but I noticed there is a Tesla charger at los Vientos Hotel in Bay of LA (Bahia de Los Angeles). For future reference.

oxxo - 6-21-2024 at 03:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
Update: maybe this is already known, but I noticed there is a Tesla charger at los Vientos Hotel in Bay of LA (Bahia de Los Angeles). For future reference.


Thank you @Ateo, that is helpful but just for clarity, there is currently only one Tesla branded, Level 3 Supercharger location in Baja and that is in Ensenda. The charger in BOLA would be a level 2, Tesla compatible, destination charger, similar to what I have in my garage, requiring about 8 hours for a full charge.

JDCanuck - 6-21-2024 at 04:13 PM

This is for SF&H based on a previous post from them asking how you check an EV battery condition when you buy used. I have discovered there is a meter on the display of the screen that shows the approximate battery condition on leafs.(not the battery state of charge as i had assumed earlier). In addition to this years ago users developed a cheap reader that you plug into the diagnostic port and it gives you a more accurate read out. Repair shops have readers that will check the full battery module by module and show if one module has developed a problem and can swap it out and reinstall the battery within a day, or if you really want it, replace the whole battery very easily. The motors of course will last a couple decades at least. Ours shows over 90% left after 45,000 miles and 5 years since manufacture date and for some unknown reason is improving since we bought. We purchased for 40% of the price of a new Tesla model 3, or 50% of the price of a new Leaf in our area including taxes, dealer fees and rebates. We still have 3 years of battery warranty left at that age.

If I was buying a very safe, reliable car for my daughter while she attended university this would be my choice for sure, mainly because of the safety features. Sudden breakdowns are almost unheard of in Leafs built from as early as 2011, so the repair history is well documented. Battery degradation stress seems to be unjustified. Yes, they do degrade over a long period of time, but the savings in fuel costs and maintenance expenses more than compensates and repairs to faulty modules are both easy and inexpensive. The optimal Leaf would be a 2020 62kwh battery one, even degraded by 10% at 5 years of age, especially if you can get one for under 15,000 as we did.


[Edited on 6-21-2024 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 6-21-2024 at 04:38 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
Update: maybe this is already known, but I noticed there is a Tesla charger at los Vientos Hotel in Bay of LA (Bahia de Los Angeles). For future reference.


Thanks Ateo, I am also finding there are far more Level 2 charge options than are shown on Plugshare here in La Paz. Basically any NEMA 14-50 plug on 240v with 30 amp supply can be used with my included charge cable to charge overnight. So now we know how all the Teslas I am seeing down here arrived.

[Edited on 6-21-2024 by JDCanuck]

mtgoat666 - 6-21-2024 at 05:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  

Thanks Ateo, I am also finding there are far more Level 2 charge options than are shown on Plugshare here in La Paz. Basically any NEMA 14-50 plug on 240v with 30 amp supply can be used with my included charge cable to charge overnight.


“ NEMA 14-50 plug on 240v with 30 amp supply”
Does an ecar owner need to know that lingo?
I like filling up my ice car because i can get regular gasoline at any station, and i dont have to worry about the pump type or nozzle size.

Can i fill up any ecar at any charging point? I suspect not. Makes not sense why there are different electricity transfer rates, different charger connection types, etc. i just want to fill up my car and go…. Seems like the ecar market will be fringe thing until there is some standardization of charging points so we can refuel easily without carrying extra cables and connectors in the trunk for connecting to non standardized plugs.
Reminds me of english vs metric tooling. Most people in the world have gone metric, and the holdouts still using english units just make life inconvenient for everyone else.

surabi - 6-21-2024 at 07:48 PM

Everything new thing is a learning curve for users, Goat. It's not a steep learning curve, though. Every EV owner manages to figure it out, it's not rocket science.

Do you carry battery cables in your car? How about some extra oil? Maybe a few basic tools? A jack? A spare tire? Carrying whatever charging cable might be needed for an EV is no different.

JDCanuck - 6-21-2024 at 08:22 PM

Goat: I can recharge at any 120 v 3 prong outlet, any 30 amp 240 v outlet 4 times as fast, at any J1772 charger...faster yet, or at any 50kw High voltage DC at a much higher rate as long as it has the standard CHAdeMo cord. Its all a matter of how fast it will charge. The car comes with a cord to attach to either 120v or 240v normal house plugs, but also has 2 input sockets for the higher charge rate EV charge stations.
Does your vehicle need regular gas, premium gas or super grade gas? I have been in lots of remote towns that only offer 87 octane regular gas and the owners carried octane boosters with them to add to the tank.

Where I live it is now demanded by code to install at least one EV charging 240v outlet in any new construction so this will soon cease to be an issue at all except on long trips away from home. There has to be some accommodation to get 108MPGe instead of 20 mpg an F-150 gets. Those who want to continue to burn gas and have far more maintenance are welcome to do so.

The NEMA 14-50 plug is the standard 240 v 50 amp plug you will find at any RV park. It has 3 upright slots both sides supplying 120v and was designed to supply either 120v, 240v with simple adaptors.



[Edited on 6-22-2024 by JDCanuck]

Ateo - 6-21-2024 at 08:58 PM

Quote: Originally posted by oxxo  
Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
Update: maybe this is already known, but I noticed there is a Tesla charger at los Vientos Hotel in Bay of LA (Bahia de Los Angeles). For future reference.


Thank you @Ateo, that is helpful but just for clarity, there is currently only one Tesla branded, Level 3 Supercharger location in Baja and that is in Ensenda. The charger in BOLA would be a level 2, Tesla compatible, destination charger, similar to what I have in my garage, requiring about 8 hours for a full charge.


Yep. This is the “Tesla” garage mounted one I have at home that is here in BOLA. Level 2. I figured it was obvious that it wasn’t a Tesla Supercharger. :)


[Edited on 6-22-2024 by Ateo]

Tioloco - 6-21-2024 at 09:01 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
Goat: I can recharge at any 120 v 3 prong outlet, any 30 amp 240 v outlet 4 times as fast, at any J1772 charger...faster yet, or at any 50kw High voltage DC at a much higher rate as long as it has the standard CHAdeMo cord. Its all a matter of how fast it will charge. The car comes with a cord to attach to either 120v or 240v normal house plugs, but also has 2 input sockets for the higher charge rate EV charge stations.
Does your vehicle need regular gas, premium gas or super grade gas? I have been in lots of remote towns that only offer 87 octane regular gas and the owners carried octane boosters with them to add to the tank.

Where I live it is now demanded by code to install at least one EV charging 240v outlet in any new construction so this will soon cease to be an issue at all except on long trips away from home. There has to be some accommodation to get 108MPGe instead of 20 mpg an F-150 gets. Those who want to continue to burn gas and have far more maintenance are welcome to do so.

The NEMA 14-50 plug is the standard 240 v 50 amp plug you will find at any RV park. It has 3 upright slots both sides supplying 120v and was designed to supply either 120v, 240v with simple adaptors.



[Edited on 6-22-2024 by JDCanuck]


Mandating charging ports on all new construction is a sticking point in the argument about it being voluntary.

JDCanuck - 6-22-2024 at 05:59 AM

Tioloco: If it was a Tesla charger mounted on the wall, or an EV charger I would agree with you, but its a 240V wall plug 'similar to those which are used for dryers, ev's or welders. Its not especially EV specific. If you have an electric stove, or dryer you already have similar but not standardized 240v plugs. I guess the Electrical codes are written to avoid someone trying to plug a 50Amp draw into wiring designed for 30 amps and causing a fire. We have codes for GFCI outdoor plugs, wiring sizes and breakers for kitchens as well, which have developed for the same reasons.
I'm with you on mandating EVs, its a political move and will never be 100% as there will always be exceptions. The motivation will be expenses and reliability, and EV's are proving to be far less cost to run in addition to far fewer mechanical breakdowns or maintenance costs. What they should be mandating is that manufacturers must be responsible to recycle the batteries when they become depleted. Here's what this site had to say about recycling the batteries over a year ago. Apparently the biggest problem is they weren't getting enough batteries to recycle as too many people were reusing them for solar storage instead.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a44022888/electric-car...

[Edited on 6-22-2024 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 6-22-2024 at 06:23 AM

Like Ateo, after only a few months of driving an EV and experiencing the safety features, smoothness, immediate torque available, great handling and ease of operation I can't see myself ever going back to gas unless I really have to. They are just a dream to drive. There is a learning curve in regard to the best least damaging charging options, but its insignificant in real use.

oxxo - 6-22-2024 at 08:10 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
Like Ateo, after only a few months of driving an EV and experiencing the safety features, smoothness, immediate torque available, great handling and ease of operation I can't see myself ever going back to gas unless I really have to. They are just a dream to drive. There is a learning curve in regard to the best least damaging charging options, but its insignificant in real use.


I had a handyman doing some work for me here in California. He asked me how I liked my car, "It looks like it is brand new!" I told him I bought it new 6 years ago and have about 70K miles on it. I said I had owned several "premium" ICE cars over the years and also a Toyota Prius hybrid. I said my current car is 100 times better than any car I have owned in the past! I told him that I had the "self-driving" option and all the complaints about it are true, but I have used that feature almost 100% of the time when I drive and it drives better than I do! I told him I will never own anything other than a BEV and because I take very good care of my BEV (proper charging, cleaning, using self-driving, etc.), this current BEV will probably be the last car I ever own! (Although I do have a reservation for an entry level CyberTruk, which I will probably cancel).

The handyman said that the reason he asked is because his daughter purchased a Tesla Model 3, two months ago, He said she had a one week learning curve and then fell totally in love with the car and never wants any other car than a Tesla. He said she had an electrician install a Level 2 charger in her garage and she has never been to a gas station or Supercharger in 2 months of ownership! She will never go back to an ICE vehicle! When I picked my new BEV from their store, it was early evening. I had to drive that new, unfamiliar car for an hour to my home in the pitch dark and that was one scary experience!!!! However, after a week of driving it, it felt like wearing a comfortable pair of worn-in bedroom slippers. Anytime I ever have to drive an ICE vehicle now, THAT is a scary experience for me, flocking buttons and dials everywhere I have no idea how to use. I drove my daughter's Prius Hybrid the other day, and I couldn't figure out how to even use the cruise control (it is located in a very inconvenient place that requires you to take your eyes off the road!)

Despite what you hear about Teslas, and some of it is true, some of it is not, they make a very compelling car. However, they are facing some very stiff competition from abroad (primarily Germany, Korea, and China) from cars that are not quite as good as a Tesla (in my opinion) but are getting closer all the time in everybody's opinion (who know anything about BEVs). As the word gets out, more and more people are jumping on the BEV bandwagon, which means to me that within the next 3 to 5 years, we will see Tesla branded, Level 3 Superchargers (available to all BEVs with a proper adapter) about every 300 miles along Hwy 1 in Baja California from Ensenada to Los Cabos.

JDCanuck - 6-22-2024 at 09:09 AM

Here is a review of what I think is the ideal Mexico BYD at a very decent price , the new BYD Yuan Plus. Range is about the same as the latest Leafs, but the style is more like a Honda CRV Hybrid (and 6000 USD cheaper)
So that gives Mexicans three optimal BYD's to choose from at present, The New Shark Hybrid, this Yuan, and the newer ultra inexpensive Dolphin Mini. No wonder the US and now Canada are adding all those tariffs to keep them out of the NOB countries. Only in Mexico eh? Pity!

https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2024-byd-yuan-plus-first-...

[Edited on 6-22-2024 by JDCanuck]

oxxo - 6-22-2024 at 10:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
Here is a review of what I think is the ideal Mexico BYD at a very decent price , the new BYD Yuan Plus. Range is about the same as the latest Leafs, but the style is more like a Honda CRV Hybrid (and 6000 USD cheaper)


Here is the problem with BYD brand. I referenced a legitimate test by some Tubers (up thread) who charged 6 different BEV brands to 100% capacity and them drove them at the same highway speed until they ran out of electrons. Some had larger batteries than others (Taycan), and some smaller (Tesla 3) so the test was on the EFFICIENCY of the battery they came with. The most efficient:
1. MBZ EQE = 94%
2. Tesla 3 = 90%
3. Taycan = 88%
4. BYD Seal = 87.5%
5. Polestar = 82%
6 BWM i5 = 82%

The problem with the BYD is that it not only had a relatively small battery pack but it also had middle of the pack efficiency which resulted in it having the second lowest range compared to what the mfg. claimed. In my opinion, BYD is not ready for prime time yet. Yes, they are comparatively both inexpensive and cheaply made in terms of materials, but you get what you pay for. The Porsche is probably the least value given its middle of the pack performance and the highest cost of all in the group.

The observed range:
1. Taycan = 368 mi. (largest battery pack)
2 MBZ EQE = 357 mi.
3. Tesla 3 = 352 mi. (it had the smallest battery pack of the 6 BEVs tested)
4. Polestar 2 = 332 mi.
5. BYD Seal = 310 mi. (one of the higher overstatements of mfg. claims)
6. BWM i5= 296 mi.

In terms of efficiency for the battery pack the BEV came with:
1. Tesla 3 = 4.7 mi/kWh
2. Polestar 2 = 4.2 mi/kWh
3. MBZ EQE = 4.0 mi/kWh
4. Taycan = 3.8 mi/Kwh
5. BYD Seal = 3.8 mi/kWh
6. BMW i5 = 3.7 mi/kWh

If you decide to purchase a BYD in Mexico, take the mfg's specifications with a grain of salt. Even if sold in the US without a tariff, I do not believe they are a good value, despite the cheap price until they have been in the market for about 5 years to prove their worth. YMMV.

JDCanuck - 6-22-2024 at 11:01 AM

Yes, the BYD blade battery is slightly less efficient than the Tesla in US models using a slightly more efficient chemistry when new, but uses a more robust chemistry. Using normal coolant, the BYD battery went through multiple puncture/crash tests without a fire resulting. BYD has always, even when they made batteries only, prioritized battery safety over efficiency. This is why Toyota is transitioning through the battery chemistry that BYD uses, the LiFePO4 chemistry prior to jumping to solid state. As far back as 2008 when Berkshire Hathaway invested in BYD as a large global battery manufacturer, they have been known for their exceptional battery stability.
Tesla too has been converting to the multiple advantages of LiFePO4 of late in the largest EV market globally:

LFP batteries have a lower energy density than most other lithium-ion cells but are cheaper, have a longer shelf-life, are less prone to overheating and don't use cobalt or nickel. Tesla already uses LFP batteries in its Model 3 and Model Y in China.



[Edited on 6-22-2024 by JDCanuck]

oxxo - 6-22-2024 at 11:56 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
Yes, the BYD blade battery is slightly less efficient than the Tesla in US models


Slightly less efficient calculates to 20% less efficient.

JDCanuck - 6-22-2024 at 12:13 PM

Here we go: a LiFePo4 battery, when used in either solar or EVs will far outlast the other Lithium battery chemistries at present. Any present solar battery exceeding 6000 cycles up to 10,000 will be LiFePO4. The other Lithium battery chemistries will be far below that. If you want to buy a used EV and want the longest possible life for the battery pack, you will want LiFePO4 chemistry. If you want highly efficient storage /release from the battery initially and are not concerned about life of the battery you will want one of the other less stable chemistries.
In the Chinese and most other global markets, they prioritize durability and this explains why BYD is growing far faster than competitors using the traditional alternative of batteries supplied by CATL batteries also made in China. To compete in China, European and Asian markets Tesla has embraced LiFePO4 as well at the slight loss of initial range.

oxxo - 6-22-2024 at 01:13 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
If you want highly efficient storage /release from the battery initially and are not concerned about life of the battery you will want one of the other less stable chemistries.


I have no argument with your viewpoint, and people are free to spend their money as they please. I am just trying to point out that Tesla overstates their range by 10% while BYD overstates their range by 12.5%, regardless of what battery technology they are using. That is a 20% difference in overstatement of range. If this makes economic sense to you, I say go for it. In my opinion, BYD should state the actual range of their batteries, which is fewer kWh's than most BEVs, and then give a 250K mile warranty on their traction batteries because of their newer battery technology. Now THAT would get my attention! The traction batteries in my BEV, which are the old technology, will probably last longer than I will be driving. :(

My neighbor across the street, let's call him Arturo (because that is his real name) is 96 y.o. and still driving on the freeway! I don't know if he has a license. EVERY time he pulls in or out of his garage, he misjudges the clearance on the passenger side of his Honda. BANG!!!! about once a month he tears off the passenger side view mirror! :O Bless his heart, he is a very nice man and we jabber away in Spanish, but I don't ever want to be near him when he is "driving!"

JDCanuck - 6-22-2024 at 01:46 PM

Range is very relative to speed and the various standards the specs are set at. In China they use a totally different set of parameters than in the US, or indeed in Europe as well, and its long been understood their range is overestimated by US standards. I know my Leaf range drops by a full 20% when i do 70mph highway driving as opposed to 30mph city driving, and Canadian parameter based range estimates clearly show that. My Miles/kwh is actually very close to the BYD stated range at 70mph, so I'm assuming based on those same specs it would be 25% higher if I drove at 30mph, which aligns again with Canadian standards for city driving as listed. It seems by the range estimates at highway/city the Teslas are optimized for highway travel speeds, whereas the Leaf is optimized for city travel. Even something as minor as color will affect the range, as the AC draws a fair amount of energy.

[Edited on 6-23-2024 by JDCanuck]

oxxo - 6-22-2024 at 08:09 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
Range is very relative to speed and the various standards the specs are set at. In China they use a totally different set of parameters than in the US, or indeed in Europe as well, and its long been understood their range is overestimated by US standards. I know my Leaf range drops by a full 20% when i do 70mph highway driving as opposed to 30mph city driving, and Canadian parameter based range estimates clearly show that. My Miles/kwh is actually very close to the BYD stated range at 70mph, so I'm assuming based on those same specs it would be 25% higher if I drove at 30mph, which aligns again with Canadian standards for city driving as listed.


I agree, range in the US is based on the NHTSB parameters which is generally more pessimistic than how other countries measure range. But, in terms of my personal experience, over 70K miles, the NHTSB ranges, done on a dynamometer, are overly optimistic by about 10%. And therefore the range assigned in other countries, like China, is overly optimistic by 20% or more for city/highway transportation.

I encourage you to make the best decisions for yourself after doing your due diligence.

Ateo - 6-22-2024 at 09:47 PM

Here’s a negative about my Electric Vehicle:

While I’m on vacation I can watch the battery go down about 5% every day while it sits in my driveway - from my Tesla app 1000 miles away. Just trying to show the whole picture. Hahaha. Most everything else is a better experience with an EV though.

oxxo - 6-23-2024 at 02:33 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
Here’s a negative about my Electric Vehicle:

While I’m on vacation I can watch the battery go down about 5% every day while it sits in my driveway - from my Tesla app 1000 miles away.


Yes, there will be some "phantom drain" from any BEV traction battery if left unattended. But 5% a day seems high, but then again it depends on the climate when left outside - BEV traction batteries prefer in the mid-70's for optimum performance. I would check on some of your settings (like preconditioning) when left outside for an extended period of time. Me? I just park mine in the garage on the charger with the charge level set around 50% while I'm away. The car will automatically charge to maintain whatever minimum charge level I set. If you are losing 5% a day, you will deplete your traction batteries in 20 days or less, depending on charge level when you departed. It is not good for traction batteries to leave them at 100% or 0% capacity for more than a couple of hours. The same goes for the rechargeable batteries in your home electronics (computer, cell phone, smart watch, etc.).

[Edited on 6-23-2024 by oxxo]

mtgoat666 - 6-23-2024 at 05:57 AM

Quote: Originally posted by oxxo  
Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
Here’s a negative about my Electric Vehicle:

While I’m on vacation I can watch the battery go down about 5% every day while it sits in my driveway - from my Tesla app 1000 miles away.


Yes, there will be some "phantom drain" from any BEV traction battery if left unattended. But 5% a day seems high, but then again it depends on the climate when left outside - BEV traction batteries prefer in the mid-70's for optimum performance. I would check on some of your settings (like preconditioning) when left outside for an extended period of time.


Hope you car is under warranty. 5% loss per day sounds ridiculous. Even 1%/day would be ridiculous.
Not very practical to own a car that cant be left parked for a few weeks or months.

oxxo - 6-23-2024 at 06:58 AM

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666  

Not very practical to own a car that cant be left parked for a few weeks or months.


What happens to the gasoline and seals and 12V battery in your ICE vehicle when you leave it parked for a few weeks or months? Not very practical.

What happens to your horse when you leave it for a few weeks or months without food and water? Not very practical.

What happens to your laptop when you leave it for a few weeks or months? Not very practical.

What happens to your cell phone when you leave it for a few weeks or a month? Not very practical.

[Edited on 6-23-2024 by oxxo]

JDCanuck - 6-23-2024 at 07:06 AM

I had read 1% per day was normal on Tesla batteries, 5% does seem very high, even with the less heat tolerant battery chemistry Teslas use. Did you leave the temperature controls on, and all the online systems running? Maybe the high temps in CA are affecting the parasitic drain rate? Parasitic drains are normal on all my later model IC vehicles too at about that same rate of 1%, so I have someone run them now and then when we are out of town or otherwise leave the battery on a trickle charger.

Here is a sight that talks about unusual excessive drain rates on Teslas and the issues that might cause them:
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/how-much-parasitic-d...

and this from the owners manual for model Y:

https://www.tesla.com/ownersmanual/modely/en_us/GUID-6F5B7B3...




[Edited on 6-23-2024 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 6-23-2024 at 08:16 AM

Ateo: Maybe you are just checking on your sleeping baby too often and keep waking it up every time you open the door?
Just a thought.

Ateo - 6-23-2024 at 08:34 AM

When I leave it I make sure Sentri Mode is on - so it’s recording its surroundings (via 4 of the 9 cameras that it comes with) and storing footage anytime someone approaches the vehicle. Nice to have that capability while away. It can be turned off. But I find it’s a great home security system. I can sit in La Paz and check what’s happening at home. Worth the $5 that I lose in electrify to be able to capture anyone up to no good while I’m away.

And yeah I do check the car every few days from the app and wake it up to see what’s going on. I can beep the horn, play deterrent sounds, and unlock it for someone if needed.

Ateo - 6-23-2024 at 08:41 AM

And I only posted this “negative issue” to subconsciously alert others on this board that we EV owners (and them) are capable of seeing the whole picture. The good, the bad, and the ugly in our choice in vehicle. 😀

We should all analyze our own self important opinions from time to time to find flaws in our reasoning. I’m guilty of not doing that from time to time.

So far, as someone who has owned an internal combustion engine vehicle since I was 15, this car is waaaaaaayy ahead in the “like” column.

JDCanuck - 6-23-2024 at 09:04 AM

Oxxo seeems to have the solution if you leave it on the trickle charge at 50%. I kinda like the Cabin Overheat Protection while parked, and the battery cooling automatically kicking in must be a safety feature for those battery chemistries especially in hot climates.
I'm waiting to see what the 2 new vehicles Tesla is planning on bringing out come in at, both in price and design. If you look at the shapes under the tarps, one seems to be an SUV style and one a very small low cost one. Both might be to challenge the two BYD most popular models presently being sold in Mexico, the Yuan Plus and the Dolphin Mini (Seagull). Its a different market in Mexico, and WHEN they are released we might see a far higher acceptance here, especially if the Giga factory comes through.

[Edited on 6-23-2024 by JDCanuck]

Ateo - 6-23-2024 at 09:19 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
Oxxo seeems to have the solution if you leave it on the trickle charge at 50%. I kinda like the Cabin Overheat Protection while parked, and the battery cooling automatically kicking in must be a safety feature for those battery chemistries especially in hot climates.

Yep. All good. I also had the preconditioning setting on so it’s starting that at 8am each morning for my daily commute, warming the cabin. Very nice to be able to have that capability.

I just realized that during winter since I’ve purchased this vehicle, I just get in and drive away, not needing to wait for heat, defrost or even move condensation off the windshield. The preconditioning mode does it for me 10 minutes before I depart.

I’ll try to come up with a better negative comment on my vehicle next time. Hahaha. Safe travels too all today! It’s beautiful here in BOLA.

JDCanuck - 6-23-2024 at 09:45 AM

Tesla has established itself globally in the luxury EV market and we see challengers in that market going bankrupt quickly. Exceptions might be Rivian and F-150 Lightning in the truck end. What I think most people are waiting for is that low cost, less complicated basic and cheap transportation that EV's are superbly capable of. Think VW bug, a vehicle any back yard mechanic can repair and keep on the road very inexpensively and not have to worry about complex systems that will eventually become very expensive to repair.
For me personally, I am looking for the ability to upgrade my Leaf to supply emergency power to my home in power failures at about 4kw to run necessary appliances, something apparently the 2024 Leafs have, and the F-150 lightning first came out with at a very low price when you could buy the F-150 lightning Pro at under 40,000 and get 12,500 in rebates. In Canada at present, we pay twice that price for the entry level model, even after rebates.

[Edited on 6-23-2024 by JDCanuck]

surfhat - 6-23-2024 at 09:50 AM

Optimal battery protection temperatures, depending on where you live, has to have something to do with some of these energy draws. Cold or hot.

I am nothing but an observer, but I have a very dear local couple who have not bought a gallon of fossil fuel in over a decade.

Every year without fail, they go on road trips throughout the west from SD to BC Canada and points further east to NM and Colorado and Yellowstone.

They made the choice and I salute them for getting off the fossil fuel addiction.

I am still addicted, but it is abundantly clear this is the future if we want to have what we have been given for our future generations to come.

They deserve nothing less from us. All any of us can, or should consider, is to support the generations to come with our individual actions in whatever we can to leave some positive efforts behind our footprints.





bajaric - 6-23-2024 at 11:17 AM

To each his own. I can't even get a flashlight that works property. I don't want to depend on an electric vehicle. Perhaps the reliability will improve in time.

Going way back in this thread to the mention of forest fires and "carbon sequestration", the carbon in a plant is not really permanently sequestered. Eventually the hydrocarbons in a plant decompose into carbon dioxide, whether by fire or fungus. I saw a statistic that said that the carbon dioxide released to the air from decomposing plants is greater than the carbon released by combustion of fossil fuels. The "sequestration" argument is one of many common misconceptions that are repeated as fact in the discussion of climate change.

Carbon in plants undergoes an endless cycle. Using the energy from the sun, water in the soil and carbon dioxide in the atmosphere are converted by plants into hydrocarbons, releasing oxygen as a byproduct. Then the plants decompose, releasing carbon dioxide back in the soil and the atmosphere. If there was no carbon dioxide in the air there would be no plants. If there were no plants there would be no oxygen to breath (or for that matter, food). So C02 in the air in itself is not a bad thing. On the contrary, life on earth depends on it.

pacificobob - 6-23-2024 at 11:24 AM

I can't wait to get an EV. going zero to sixty in 4 seconds is very appealing to me..

surabi - 6-23-2024 at 12:10 PM

"If there was no carbon dioxide in the air there would be no plants. If there were no plants there would be no oxygen to breath (or for that matter, food). So C02 in the air in itself is not a bad thing. On the contrary, life on earth depends on it."

I think everyone knows this, it's elementary school science.

There is such a thing as "too much" of even good, natural, beneficial, things. People have died from drinking too much water, for instance.

[Edited on 6-23-2024 by surabi]

surfhat - 6-23-2024 at 12:34 PM

Flashlights? Single use batteries? Good riddance.

I do have a lithium ion rechargeable flashlight that came with my Makita tool kit a decade ago and am glad to have it when I need it. Not dealing with the disposing of batteries goes back a couple of decades now.

When almost everyone uses their so-called 'smart' phone for a flashlight, no one runs out of battery power.

Another great Makita lithium ion battery tool is a 12" adjustable fan.

Any breeze when you need it is invaluable. Now back to your regularly scheduled program. haha

surabi - 6-23-2024 at 12:55 PM

My favorite flashlight is a little wind-up one I have. Doesn't need electricity to recharge or batteries. You just hand crank it. It even has a USB port to charge up your phone.

oxxo - 6-23-2024 at 01:37 PM

Quote: Originally posted by pacificobob  
I can't wait to get an EV. going zero to sixty in 4 seconds is very appealing to me..


You have NO idea how exhilarating that is!!!

I have one of the "slower" BEVs that does 0 to 60 in 6+ seconds. And when I "punch it," it will snap my head into the headrest (instant torque). I use this feature frequently when I am merging onto the freeway and an 18 wheeler is going 65 just to my left and blocking me. I simply floor it and leave the truck in my rear view mirror with plenty of room to spare, not cutting off anyone...and I'm flying down the road at 80+ in the "slow" lane, until I back off to the speed limit to avoid unwanted attention from Smokey (never buy a red BEV ;)) 0 to 60 in 4 sec. will suck the eyes right out of a parrot! And the acceleration is not the best part, the handling is. With the weight down low in the traction batteries, these cars are glued to the road. Take a drive to the mountains on the "twisties" some day to really appreciate a Tesla. And that is why so many drivers go through tires so quickly. Tires are still catching up to the capabilities of a BEV.

(Edit) I bet if you get a 4 second Model 3 Tesla Performance, you will be taking it to Laguna Seca to test your cajones because you will be maxing out your acceleration AND handling against some talented Tesla drivers! (take a clean pair of underwear)

[Edited on 6-23-2024 by oxxo]

JDCanuck - 6-23-2024 at 03:24 PM

Quote: Originally posted by surabi  
My favorite flashlight is a little wind-up one I have. Doesn't need electricity to recharge or batteries. You just hand crank it. It even has a USB port to charge up your phone.


I have one of those things too. Mine has crank or solar, and comes with a radio as well. But there's now an amazingly bright LED rechargeable for 12 bucks that throws a very strong beam that's become our favorite. Uses the same charging cord our cell phones do. Rechargeable lithium has been a game changer in convenience in almost everything, let alone all those batteries that used to go to landfills. Remember those white gas lanterns we used to have to pump up to get light when camping?

JDCanuck - 6-23-2024 at 03:48 PM

I'm going to do a rough calculation of additional solar needs to charge an EV for common use, assuming you have a smaller system to handle your house needs alone.
If you lived in Todos Santos, about midway between La Paz and Cabo, you would need about 150 miles of range to drive to one of those cities and return and do a bit of running around while there. That equates to around 35kwh of power drawn for each trip, leaving a Tesla Y with half its power remaining when you got home, a battery of the Leaf size at 62KWH with at least 1/3 its power remaining. In that area, you can average 5.5 times 7kwh of rated solar panel output per day.

We happened to have about that much excess unused power from our 11kw system every day so it could at present handle that additional load or expense as it does not cause extra wear on the panels to allow them to feed the Inverter at full output. Adding a few more panels would help for those cloudy days when output is reduced. The car could charge on level 2 from your installed panels during the day or partially from batteries at night within maybe 3-4 hours, or if on a timer you would set it to only charge after your batteries were fully recharged during the day reducing your home storage batteries cycling wear. I think at a bit over .20 per kwh for CFE power this would be well worth the initial expense to boost solar for EV use.


[Edited on 6-23-2024 by JDCanuck]

oxxo - 6-23-2024 at 04:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
. I think at a bit over .20 per kwh for CFE power this would be well worth the initial expense to boost solar for EV use.


The cheapest gasoline I saw in the Los Cabos area, 3 weeks ago was USD 6+/gal at Costco. If your calculations are correct to add additional panels to charge a BEV, given the price of gasoline, this would be a no brainer.

JDCanuck - 6-23-2024 at 04:14 PM

So at .20 per kwh even if you pay for the extra power from CFE, what do you estimate the savings on each trip to be when gas is 6.00 per gallon? If you have enough solar of course its free after the cost of installing or expanding the system. at 25mpg we get 36.00, even at ,20 per kwh its 7.00, quite a significant savings on each trip. This seems to put the Kia NIro EV right into the best range for those common trips at present, especially if you have existing or future solar excess.


[Edited on 6-23-2024 by JDCanuck]

oxxo - 6-23-2024 at 04:15 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
Remember those white gas lanterns we used to have to pump up to get light when camping?


Remember? that one lantern was my only source of light for 2 years, back in the day, when we lived on $35/mo. for 2 people.

oxxo - 6-23-2024 at 04:39 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
So at .20 per kwh even if you pay for the extra power from CFE, what do you estimate the savings on each trip to be when gas is 6.00 per gallon? If you have enough solar of course its free after the cost of installing or expanding the system. at 25mpg we get 36.00, even at ,20 per kwh its 7.00, quite a significant savings on each trip.


How many trips per month? How many MPGs for your Ice car?

Here in California, gasoline is around $5/gal and the average MPGs is somewhere between 25-30. Given these numbers, it costs about 25% of the cost of gasoline to charge a BEV directly from the Grid (no solar panels). And this is accounting for rapidly increasing rates from the Utility companies to settle massive settlements for the fire damage they caused by poor maintenance of their utility infrastructure.

My WAG for your situation in T.D. with both high gasoline and electric utility rates would be about the same 25% of the cost of gasoline if you charge from the CFE Grid. If you install solar panels for BEV charging, and after you amortize for equipment and labor installation, your cost will go down to close to 0% to power your BEV. And you will have a smile so big, it will break your face!

mtgoat666 - 6-23-2024 at 05:14 PM

Quote: Originally posted by oxxo  
Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
So at .20 per kwh even if you pay for the extra power from CFE, what do you estimate the savings on each trip to be when gas is 6.00 per gallon? If you have enough solar of course its free after the cost of installing or expanding the system. at 25mpg we get 36.00, even at ,20 per kwh its 7.00, quite a significant savings on each trip.


How many trips per month? How many MPGs for your Ice car?

Here in California, gasoline is around $5/gal and the average MPGs is somewhere between 25-30. Given these numbers, it costs about 25% of the cost of gasoline to charge a BEV directly from the Grid (no solar panels). And this is accounting for rapidly increasing rates from the Utility companies to settle massive settlements for the fire damage they caused by poor maintenance of their utility infrastructure.

My WAG for your situation in T.D. with both high gasoline and electric utility rates would be about the same 25% of the cost of gasoline if you charge from the CFE Grid. If you install solar panels for BEV charging, and after you amortize for equipment and labor installation, your cost will go down to close to 0% to power your BEV. And you will have a smile so big, it will break your face!


Selling your ice car and buying an ev has costs. Evs cost more than equivalent capacity ice cars.
Buying a solar pv system for home use only pays off in 10 or 12 years, under NEM 3. NEM 1 was good $$ for homeowners, the economic benefits have fallen as NEM has become more common, and utilities quit transferring NEM costs to commercial and poor rate payers.
You probably spend under $5k/year in gasoline, as an active retiree. You will drive less as you age, so your annual gasoline costs will diminish.
For retirees, the upfront costs of purchasing ev and home solar pv may not pay off in time left driving. Will you still be driving 15 years from now? Driving as much?


[Edited on 6-24-2024 by mtgoat666]

JDCanuck - 6-23-2024 at 05:14 PM

Well, I tried to estimate a cheaper SUV mileage to an inexpensive EV SUV for comparison which seem to be the preferred vehicle styles here. The Niro just happens to be a popular cheaper SUV up north quite a few of which will soon become available on the slightly used market. Of course if you compare to a 4X4 truck or Jeep that mileage is way off.

All 4 Kia Niros can be compared here, at a gas cost of about 3.80 (I wish!) per gallon, to an average power cost per kwh up north and can be customized for better accuracy:

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs&id=45...

This does not factor in reduced maintenance costs, only the fuel savings. The Leaf for instance has only 3 scheduled maintenance items after 3 years (change brake fluid, change cabin air filter, and rotate tires) a total cost of maybe 300 dollars over 3 years or 45000 miles.


[Edited on 6-24-2024 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 6-23-2024 at 05:37 PM

Another interesting thought when purchasing a new Leaf is you have the option of leasing the battery for 100 per month, putting the initial purchase cost much lower, below that of a comparable compact gas vehicle. The fuel savings is twice that, so this removes the fear of battery degradation and lets you invest the difference in Solar system upgrades while saving money from the time you buy.

mtgoat666 - 6-23-2024 at 05:54 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
Another interesting thought when purchasing a new Leaf is you have the option of leasing the battery for 100 per month, putting the initial purchase cost much lower, below that of a comparable compact gas vehicle. The fuel savings is twice that, so this removes the fear of battery degradation and lets you invest the difference in Solar system upgrades while saving money from the time you buy.


Don't look at just fuel cost. Need to look at fuel, maint., repairs, depreciation, insurance, financing, reg. fees, etc.
Lots of sites out there will give you 5yr cost of ownership…

EVs have had high depreciation rates (poor resale). Some say that is changing, but history so far says evs depreciate so fast that the cheap fuel is offset by high depreciation rate- making evs cost ownership about same or worse than gas cars.



[Edited on 6-24-2024 by mtgoat666]

Remember those white gas lanterns we used to have to pump up to get light when camping?

AKgringo - 6-23-2024 at 05:55 PM

I knew it! Sooner or later someone always seems to take a thread to "Gaslighting"!

But I do remember how fragile those mantels were.

JDCanuck - 6-23-2024 at 07:50 PM

Yes and no Goat. Try to find a used EV for what they say they depreciate to....good luck on that one. Insurance is lower, repair costs are 50% lower , fuel is lower by 75%-100%. I would like to say something is higher but i honestly cant find anything, especially til now, depreciation. What COULD cause depreciation in the near future is technology improvements as people far prefer newer models with boosted range. What would you pay for a 2014 vehicle running on gas in very good visible shape and 150,000 miles? 20-30%? You will have no idea what is worn to the breaking point and will be taking a big risk on imminent failure.



[Edited on 6-24-2024 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 6-23-2024 at 08:22 PM

F-150 Lightning XLT in our area after rebates is 10% cheaper than an F-150 Lightning XLT on gas....even more rebate differential where you are, up to 12,500. Now depreciate them both by 75% in 10 years. The Lightning is still cheaper, and based on MSRP it looks like it depreciated more, but the rebates were flowed through to the buyer.
Teslas were even worse, and hardly depreciated at all as the number of used Teslas offered for sale in my area were extremely minimal...people are just not selling them, and when they did they went through dealers and traded up. There was only one Tesla Y listed at a dealership within 150 miles from me and it was in transit and might be available if I bought it sight unseen and of course, the rebates were no longer available on it as a used vehicle.


[Edited on 6-24-2024 by JDCanuck]

mtgoat666 - 6-23-2024 at 08:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
Yes and no Goat. Try to find a used EV for what they say they depreciate to....good luck on that one. Insurance is lower, repair costs are 50% lower , fuel is lower by 75%-100%. I would like to say something is higher but i honestly cant find anything, especially til now, depreciation.


Depreciation is the biggest cost on a car!
And e cars depreciate like a lead ballon.
Cheap maintenance? The batteries degrade and fail just like the batteries in my power tools, the battery in my iphone,… the cost to replace battery bank in a car is astronomical.
Ecars are great when new. Not so great when 9 years old. I keep my cars 10+ years…and my last 4wd i still see driving in baja sur 7 years after i sold it at age 10. Ecars are novelty throw aways, not ready for prime time yet.

JDCanuck - 6-23-2024 at 08:54 PM

You are comparing apples and oranges Goat. Your power tool batteries are a totally different animal than EV batteries. They have been around long enough to show they last over 200,000 miles, and even those older type batteries have been improved on in longevity in the intervening years. Even if you buy a 5 yr old used EV you simply read its present condition and project how many miles you can expect from it before its range drops below your expectations of minimal miles for your purposes. Its not like they suddenly fail like Ryobi batteries do. If they ever do within 10 years in California, the manufacturer must replace it free of charge. In other states its 8 years.

[Edited on 6-24-2024 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 6-23-2024 at 09:19 PM

I keep my cars 10 years as well if I buy new. So in 10 years you in California have a fully guaranteed battery for those years against failure and you pick up the 12,500 rebates. In the meantime you save more than 24,000 (and growing) in fuel, half the maintenance costs you would pay otherwise on a gas vehicle. I just cannot see where the downside is here. The F150 lightning comes with vehicle to home capabilities, or even better at no extra cost, power ports to run your very necessary fridge, furnace, etc appliances in power failures, or throw out those crappy Ryobi tools altogether and get real tools powered from your truck. You can be the neighborhood hero and rescue anyone who exceeds their EV battery range and feed their batteries to get them back on the road..

JDCanuck - 6-23-2024 at 10:50 PM

And once again, China leads on battery development, with much longer distance (semi) solid state batteries already available in NIOs. This is the company that built the under 3 min battery swap stations across China, where they have become popular options. Why spend more time recharging when you can pull in, get a new battery and pull out in 3 min, all done by robotic sensors and tooling? Want a battery upgrade? You just pull in and get the latest one by choice.

https://electrek.co/2024/06/17/nio-semi-solid-state-ev-batte...

And here is their 4d smart suspension to overcome those topes. You will have to scroll down past the swap station and acceleration and braking specs.

https://www.nio.com/et7

[Edited on 6-24-2024 by JDCanuck]

mtgoat666 - 6-23-2024 at 11:30 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
I keep my cars 10 years as well if I buy new. So in 10 years you in California have a fully guaranteed battery for those years against failure and you pick up the 12,500 rebates. In the meantime you save more than 24,000 (and growing) in fuel, half the maintenance costs you would pay otherwise on a gas vehicle. I just cannot see where the downside is here. The F150 lightning comes with vehicle to home capabilities, or even better at no extra cost, power ports to run your very necessary fridge, furnace, etc appliances in power failures, or throw out those crappy Ryobi tools altogether and get real tools powered from your truck. You can be the neighborhood hero and rescue anyone who exceeds their EV battery range and feed their batteries to get them back on the road..


Batteries dont last 10 years. My neighbors leaf died this year, about 10 years old. Was limping last few years. Replacement batteries were not available from mfg, 3rd party batts were $$$$$$$.
Example of why ecars depreciate fast!
I like ecars. Great new. Bad used car market, no network of economical service garages to maintain old vehicles. Ecars, toys for wealthy, not ready for working peeps.

JDCanuck - 6-24-2024 at 05:43 AM

Batteries dont last 10 years. My neighbors leaf died this year, about 10 years old. Was limping last few years. Replacement batteries were not available from mfg, 3rd party batts were $$$$$$$.


What you mean is...the battery in his older far lower range(likely 24kwh) than those in present Leafs(62 kwh) declined to the point where it no longer met his minimum range needs. A 62 kwh is not only a different chemistry than those built 10 years ago and based on designs from 13 years ago, they also decline slower in capacity. The 62kwh battery will get to the point his was at in 2 1/2 times the age assuming the same overall use.
I did not buy a Leaf when I took one for a drive about 8 years ago, also because I didn't trust the range they would provide, despite the fact I liked the handling and other features. Even new that generation of Leafs only provided about 75 miles range. But the 3 times boosted range present Leafs provide was enough to make the difference. After 10 years my 5 yr old with 45000 miles Leaf will still provide 95% of my driving needs in the city, and we will use our second vehicle to do the other 5% of long trips.
There is a crossover where the range new is high enough to justify the capacity declines and we passed that long ago, even for us buy new and keep 10 years types.



[Edited on 6-24-2024 by JDCanuck]

Ateo - 6-24-2024 at 09:56 AM

I saw a Tesla on my way outta BOLA yesterday. I was driving my Honda. When I got stuck behind a ton of vehicles north of San Quintin I longed for that well known Tesla acceleration to make passing safer and easier…..just another way an e vehicle is compatible with the needs one has in Baja.

oxxo - 6-24-2024 at 10:12 AM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
You are comparing apples and oranges Goat.


You can lead a goat to water, but you can't make him drink.

oxxo - 6-24-2024 at 10:27 AM

Quote: Originally posted by Ateo  
When I got stuck behind a ton of vehicles north of San Quintin


I HATE that section of Hwy 1 north of San Quintin. It's always jammed with work buses, school buses, and local population who are in no hurry. So I just turn up the volume on my thumb drive and listen to some smooth jazz and relax going 30 mph. I also listen to the Mexican chartreuse, Sofia Karina. I met her in person at a gig she was playing in San Jose d.C. She invited me to sing along with her, "Cottonfields" in Spanish. Her style reminds me of Linda Ronstadt, R.I.P.

JDCanuck - 6-24-2024 at 11:31 AM

More tariffs added to imported EV's and batteries. Seems no one wants to allow those cheaper Teslas with the LiFePO4 batteries into our markets. It was the only new EV being planned at present to arrive in Canada and directly affected. That promised lower cost Tesla may be delayed even longer or never arrive at all. So we now have tariffs on the most cost efficient solar panels, storage batteries and EVs. Seems an odd way to encourage lower CO2 outputs.

oxxo - 6-24-2024 at 01:47 PM

Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
More tariffs added to imported EV's and batteries. Seems no one wants to allow those cheaper Teslas with the LiFePO4 batteries into our markets. It was the only new EV being planned at present to arrive in Canada and directly affected. That promised lower cost Tesla may be delayed even longer or never arrive at all. So we now have tariffs on the most cost efficient solar panels, storage batteries and EVs. Seems an odd way to encourage lower CO2 outputs.


It is all a political game played by the Trade Unions (and supported, at this time, by both parties for political reasons) to protect their members and "turf" at the expense of the public and inflation. I wonder, probably unrealistically, if California, with the world's 5th largest economy, could override the Federal mandate and permit these alternative energy products for import into California only, including Teslas made in China, at some more reasonable tariff rate, maybe 5% - 10% ? I guarantee you would see California's economy go through the ceiling! And, you know, we Californicans are a bunch of fruits, nuts, and flakes, and we may just do that very thing! Screw the political game, let's get this done!!!

mtgoat666 - 6-24-2024 at 05:08 PM

Quote: Originally posted by oxxo  
Quote: Originally posted by JDCanuck  
More tariffs added to imported EV's and batteries. Seems no one wants to allow those cheaper Teslas with the LiFePO4 batteries into our markets. It was the only new EV being planned at present to arrive in Canada and directly affected. That promised lower cost Tesla may be delayed even longer or never arrive at all. So we now have tariffs on the most cost efficient solar panels, storage batteries and EVs. Seems an odd way to encourage lower CO2 outputs.


It is all a political game played by the Trade Unions (and supported, at this time, by both parties for political reasons) to protect their members and "turf" at the expense of the public and inflation. I wonder, probably unrealistically, if California, with the world's 5th largest economy, could override the Federal mandate and permit these alternative energy products for import into California only, including Teslas made in China, at some more reasonable tariff rate, maybe 5% - 10% ? I guarantee you would see California's economy go through the ceiling! And, you know, we Californicans are a bunch of fruits, nuts, and flakes, and we may just do that very thing! Screw the political game, let's get this done!!!


Tariffs? Americans prefer lots of inexpensive things rather than fewer expensive things, so we like our cheap foreign products made by child labor, indentured servants and slaves (as long as said laborers are not waspy American citizens!)

[Edited on 6-25-2024 by mtgoat666]
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