BajaNomad

Cultural differances, ain't they fun!

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Dave - 12-5-2006 at 09:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
I do indeed believe that Mother Theresa would have run the ovens of Auschwitz had she not had some formative developmental experiences that mitigated against this.

Of Theresa you say “Not on her worst day and she wouldn't have had to control any impulse to the contrary.” I wonder.


It might interest some to know that N-zis didn't operate the crematorias, Jews did.

My father was a survivor. One of my uncles a Sonderkommando.

toneart - 12-5-2006 at 10:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
toneart,

I really like how you said this
"Do a gut check. How do bloodsports, war, cruelty, torture make you feel? If you have been desensitized by life's experiences so as to not feel much, can you reach back and remember how you felt about these things as a child?"

That sounds like a very good moral compass to me. I have come to understand the concept of sin as a choice not to follow this compass.

Having said that I have to be very careful applying my compass to your or anyone else’s journey. That is the rub. Does the other person want a compass? Is my compass of any use or value to them? Do they have their own way of navigating? If I offer my compass am I inherently saying that theirs is flawed?

I once had a professional philosopher in my boat. We fished many a time before I inquired as to his profession. I told him I had a philosopher in my boat all the time. I told him that philosopher started the engine each time I turned the key. We had a good laugh with that. Anyway he told me that as a philosopher, his field is Medical Ethics, that the important thing is to ask the questions that others may not have asked. The answers will emerge, ask good questions he told me.

I like your questions a lot. Do a gut check. Think about your history and acculturation. Do you feel ok doing what you are doing? Ask yourself questions about yourself. I like that a lot.

Iflyfish


Yes, I agree that one needs to be careful when comparing moral compasses. We all come from different backgrounds and experiences, but we arrive at being comfortable with ourselves in relation to the world by being honest in our hearts. It is not being self-righteous. It is the work we choose to do. The goal is to evolve and rise to a higher state of being.

Comparing moral compasses from the heart is an opportunity for learning. If one truly has an open heart he/she can speak their truth and hear the truth of others. They can well be different truths. True, some really don't want it. No sense in forcing it.

By offering your own compass you are not declaring the other's flawed, because it is your truth. The caution comes from people not considering or seeing the whole. They may be egocentric and therefore impervious to external input, no matter what is the intent of the giver. They may also be having a bad day and mood definitely colors sensory perceptions.

Another caveat in comparing moral compasses is to be aware of your delivery style. Are you pontificating? That's an easy trap to fall into. Some bloviate!;D (That has become my new favorite word, learned right here on BajaNomad).

Finally (whew!). The medium we are using here is the written word. It is risky. I am aware it sounds a bit airy-fairy, although I assure the reader I am neither, having my feet and my manhood firmly anchored in the everyday world. Having said all this, I prefer to teach by example.

toneart - 12-5-2006 at 11:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fdt
Here goes again:

Do the people that hate c-ckfighting, bullfighting, turtleeating and so on know that all of this is going on before entering México?
If they do, do they know that it's part of the culture?
Are they here to change it?
Do they want it to be the same as what they left behind?
Wouldn't it be a lot easier to accept, they don't have to participate.


Probably most do know this is going on before entering Mexico. Probably they do know that it's part of the culture. Some don't.

Are they here to change it? Probably not.
Wouldn't it be a lot easier to accept? Yes.
It is true they don't have to participate.

May I give my perspective on this? There are things in every culture that I don't like or agree with. In my country (USA) our Constitution gives us the right to speak about things(in the USA) we disagree with. It is not the easy path to take and it is often uncomfortable. I speak out when I see an injustice; to the planet, to humans and to animals. We humans are gifted with a conscience and the ability to make judgments. We are the stewards and protectors of the earth.

We inhabitants of this planet, and the planet itself, are not infinite beings. For example, turtles are an endangered species; turkeys are not. In my view, survival of species trumps customs.

I can't really respect a custom that is destructive, but that doesn't mean I don't like the culture. I didn't come to Mexico with the purpose of changing it. If the subject comes up in my presence, I will try to influence, but not lecture. My example of not participating will be my way.

I am more critical of my own culture because I have a right to.
When in Mexico, fortunately I find more to like in its people, its scenic beauty and its customs than not. I am a guest. I will not be rude. Having said that, I realize that not participating could be considered rude. So be it.

Iflyfish - 12-6-2006 at 12:12 AM

Dave

You share a true but not often reported story. Not all camps, not all Jews, but some collaborated and identified with the oppressor. Who among us could say with absolute certainty that we would not do this? Many of the French collaborated with the N-zis and it became normative to do so.

You make the point exactly with your post. Patty Hearst, the woman taken hostage by the Black Panthers in essence joined them.

People wondered how this could ever happen in Germany. Germany was the most civilized, advanced culture in the world. The language of science was German, the great philosophers of the time were German, great literature, art and music were being produced in Germany. WWI damaged the German psyche. The humiliation experienced at Versailles projected onto the Jews and they retaliated. Nations act like people. Nations and cultures have histories that affect them. I wonder what role the losing of Viet Nam played in the enthusiasm for Shock and Awe. I wonder what role being a conquered people has played in the development of Mexican culture?

There are reasons that Mexicans act like Mexicans and NorteAmericanos act like NorteAmericanos. Often the reasons given are fallacious, but the differences are real. Long standing differences may even be genetic. Cultures must develop ways to channel the collective emotions of the people and to act out the drama of their sense of self.

Thanks for weighing in on this.

Iflyfish

FARASHA - 12-6-2006 at 02:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
Dave

You share a true but not often reported story. Not all camps, not all Jews, but some collaborated and identified with the oppressor. Who among us could say with absolute certainty that we would not do this? Many of the French collaborated with the N-zis and it became normative to do so.

You make the point exactly with your post. Patty Hearst, the woman taken hostage by the Black Panthers in essence joined them.

People wondered how this could ever happen in Germany. Germany was the most civilized, advanced culture in the world. The language of science was German, the great philosophers of the time were German, great literature, art and music were being produced in Germany. WWI damaged the German psyche. The humiliation experienced at Versailles projected onto the Jews and they retaliated. Nations act like people. Nations and cultures have histories that affect them. I wonder what role the losing of Viet Nam played in the enthusiasm for Shock and Awe. I wonder what role being a conquered people has played in the development of Mexican culture?

There are reasons that Mexicans act like Mexicans and NorteAmericanos act like NorteAmericanos. Often the reasons given are fallacious, but the differences are real. Long standing differences may even be genetic. Cultures must develop ways to channel the collective emotions of the people and to act out the drama of their sense of self.

Thanks for weighing in on this.

Iflyfish


Flyfisher - you are talking about the "Stockholm Syndrom", a survival instinct = rather collaborate/Identify with the traitor then to be erradicated!!!

FARASHA - 12-6-2006 at 02:52 AM

A Question: I have been asking myself since this thread has started to go on and on SOOOO well ( with minor interferences)
- HOW many of the posters on this thread are MALE ? I'm NOT.
Why I want to know?? - seems to me ( but I can be totally wrong) - that this is a NON subject to females?? If so - WHY??
I could identify so far just 1 other female (beside me).
And it would be VERY interesting to hear femal voices about this subject, especially Mexican Females!!

And I could NOT identify another mexican voice beside "fdt".
Or did I oversee something/someone?

Like toneart posted , which I totally agree with, and saves me the time to repeat the same(THANKS ;) )in length.
- I do not go to other countries/culture to patronise them. And if I do not like some things - well thats a different cultur - non of MY business to tell them better, if not understanding the background, history etc...
So I rather will not take part of something in one way or other. OR when getting involved for some reason, I might ask them for information about the WHY, HOW, WHAT.....and have a conversation about the DIFFERENCES in CULTUR.
And did learn a lot, even I did not like some stuff, but still I learned!!

kellychapman - 12-6-2006 at 07:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Osprey
Here's a little disclaimer before I post more little culture things -- my tombstone will read "Don't go by me". Nothing sinister intended -- just some random thoughts from a harmless old man.


Inside



The cactus wren steps carefully, gingerly, between the thorns of the cholla to build its nest. She lines the nest with twigs, strips of palm, bits of shredded bark until the nest is protecting the bird, later the tiny delicate eggs, and eventually chicks, from the tips of the deadly spikes.

Like the cholla, Mexico protects its way of life, continues its slow, steady breathing, preserving the core heat of the millions of people it holds, nurtures, by producing spikes and thorns of another kind. They are just as sharp, waiting to prick and puncture invaders with thin skin or clumsy movement.

The cactus stands motionless. Waiting. Mexico waits, admits the faceless pilgrims, the uninvited fat, pink immigrants. No need for a fence south of the Rio Grande. No sudden skirmishes, no more guns and swords; the bloody collision of divergent cultures -- that was the age of Cortez. New World cultures grind slowly, inexorably past those of Old Mexico. The grinding bruises everyone.

The pink ones suffer kindness unrequited, social slights. Unreturned visits, gifts, pleasantries can sting and bruise. Newcomers may perceive a real or imagined meanness in the manner of those officials, public servants, who can smooth their path but often wear the thorns of duplicity. A system biased and unjust can chaff and insult anyone not insulated by the accident of being born on Mexican soil.

The Americans. The Americans and the Canadians bruise, bleed more than most. They have been softened, weakened by decades of warm winds and full bellies. Many run back bleeding, frightened, disappointed.

Those that stay have not changed, have not grown stronger -- like the wren, they have found the secret. They can only feel safe and warm after they have experienced all the cuts, bruises on the thorny top layer of the place; after they have fought their way inside.


these random thoughts from an old man ( I do not know him or anything about him) are words from the wise and so eloquently put.....thank you for the wonderful way you touch the soul......and now I am trying to figure what this is all about because I don't quite get the meaning of all this...I'll be back.

kellychapman - 12-6-2006 at 08:46 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by longlegsinlapaz
I’m sorry, but I don’t understand the big taboo about respectfully discussing cultural differences. The definition of “different” certainly doesn’t infer bad, odd, weird, inferior or any other negative connotation; it simply means not the same. IMHO, I think it’s better to be aware that there ARE cultural differences & to be aware of what those differences may be. Too many people come to Mexico with their own cultural expectations, which can lead to rudeness & disrespect for not having their expectations met. It can also lead to having their bubbles burst & dissatisfaction over what reality is versus their expectations. Knowing in advance what some of the cultural differences are, removes the rose colored glasses & I think that personal expectations can be set aside to allow for a smoother transition & acceptance of the differences.

I believe it’s a combination of the entire atmosphere that attracts us initially; the unique & awesome landscape, different climate, the warmth of the people, cultural diversity…to name a few. We should know, respect & celebrate those differences! Whether we fully understand them or not, we do need to respect them, for they are an inherent part of our host country. If we expect everything to be the same as wherever we come from, then there wouldn’t be any desire or need to venture this far from our roots!

I have talked with my Mexican friends about our cultural differences, I tried to explain where I’m coming from & how most Norteamericanos think, feel, & why, and they’ve attempted to get me to understand the same from their perspective. Some of these conversations were very enlightening, some frustrating, but they were all amiable! We each came away with a better respect, if not understanding, of our cultural differences; and in some instances, we have agreed to disagree! There are some things we will never see totally eye-to-eye on, but we each accept that!

Understanding that there are cultural differences is the first step, attempting to understand those differences is the second step, acceptance, or at a minimum, tolerance of those differences is the ultimate step!

I will be the first to want this thread removed if it becomes a shooting gallery! It IS possible to have a respectful discussion without name-calling or stereotypical mud-slinging posts.:bounce:


I realize I am a bit late getting involved in this thread, but my dear freind Farasha asked for another woman's opinion and respecting someone who is a very experienced traveler I decided to check it out....I thought I was getting it down and was getting somewhere. When I read this quote I was blown away by clearing my fog and then I read the last statement about this being a shooting gallary and removing this thread and it is was like 2 different people writing......the first so enlighting and then an ending leaving me feel awful. I hate threats as they make me feel bad or afraid to be honest and especially after making me feel so good. I can't even figure myself out let alone as to why I would live in Mexico and want it like the USA where I was raised. Why bother coming here at all and just go to Hawaii.......I LOVE THE MEXICANS AND RESPECT THEIR CULTURE and I can no more expect them to understand me then go to the moon....I don't understand PEOPLE in general ( the world issues at least validate I am not stupid or crazy)....let alone their cultures....they are happy people and I just want to be happy.....they treat me like gold and I offer the same treatment back.....so what goes around really does come around. And the great news ......you can always leave and never come back if you so choose because we can.......I LOVE MEXICO......it has more then surpassed my expectations and I will be buried here......a good reason for my Son's to come relive the happiness of our lives together.....You get a weekend here every year to have a party...and even after your dead.......and I need to understand that.....I do not think so....doesn't make being dead such a fearful thing.....no options on that issue. Back to cultural issues.......if one does not understand there are vast differences then stay in areas you can relate and understand......I can understand how this could go on and on.....when I was in New Orleans....the culture differences...before Katrina....were every other block.....I also loved New Orleans......it is never ending but yet the only word to go along with different cultures to me is ...RESPECT WHERE AND WHO YOU ARE WITH......we have enough BS going on this earth without stepping in it on this thread....of course there are always accidents sometimes.....

Iflyfish - 12-6-2006 at 11:47 AM

Hi Kelly,

Good to hear from you.

I like your perspective. We have been discussing cultural differences. We have been trying to do so in a way that acknowledges them without criticizing the other. Often people deal with differences by criticizing the other. We have been pretty successful.

This thread grew out of another thread where cultural differences were being criticized and it was becoming acrimonious. So I decided to start a thread where these things could be discussed as differences.

Most recently we have been discussing things like bullfights, c-ckfights, turtle soup etc. These are topics that often lead to a lot of rancor. Finger pointing and moralizing. We have been discussing the use of bullfights, c-ckfights, boxing matches, football games as a way for cultures to channel their aggressive urges. This discussion of course requires us to look at our own urges and that can be difficult.

Thanks for checking in.

Farasha, I am a man. I like your question and would also like to hear more from native Mexicans on differences that they see in our cultures. I think that NorteAmericanos tend to view these differences as being only one way. Mexicans are different from us period. It is harder to see the bone in our own nose.

Iflyfish

toneart - 12-6-2006 at 11:52 AM

Iflyfish-
Your statement suggesting that differences in people may be partly genetic is going down a slippery slope. I would say that we can't look at cultural differences by declaring that people are different because of the genes they were born with, and leave it at that. The premise requires some qualification. Genetic memory (Carl Jung) is shaped by many many generations of cultural behavior. We reach the point where we aren't even aware of the long path we took to get here....but we are here because we were represented in our genetic heritage, before we were born. I hope I am not nit-picking here. I just know that when genetics are identified as causal, people tend to bristle.

Farasha-
Do you believe that this discussion is a non-issue for women? Do you feel you are going against the tide by being interested?
Fortunately, others women have jumped in since you posted that. I am not certain, because I am not a woman, but I don't think that interest in this topic is gender specific.

I have not made a study of this and I have not taken a count. These are just my impressions because I really did ponder your question. It seems that there are more men participating as Nomads than there are women. I have also observed that most of the women who participate are living full time in Baja, and they are very busy. A greater percentage of men are part-timers or are retired. They have more time on their hands.
Anyway, I always appreciate your contributions.:yes:

Just as a note

fdt - 12-6-2006 at 11:59 AM

I don't think many mexicans in México post here, or are there?
Lets count them
fernadetijuana = fdt ....1
= .....2
= ....3
= ....4

algun otro?

FARASHA - 12-6-2006 at 12:35 PM

Finally back on OUR thread - busy days nowadays at work.

Great Kelly that you finally turned up here - you are living fulltime in BCS - I wonder if you have contact with Mexican women? IF so what differences can you see?

YES toneart, I agree - this board IS male dominated by those reasons you mentioned, I figured this too.
And NO I do not feel that I'm standing alone with my point of view. Rather the other way around, quite often in my Life I get to hear that I'm too analytical/rational, which dosn't apply for a WOMAN (for some people). I find myself often in a rather male led discussion, then in a femal tea circle.
That made me here wonder again, as I thought this is an NON gender related issue - so why no females??
I just missed some femal voices, in addition to Mexican voices.
It's my profession kicking in - to hear ALL perspectives on a Subject. And for those who will now ask - I'm working in the mental departement. So human behavior and their reasons/results are my daily business.
I found many posts on this thread that saved me the time to post myself. THANKS to them ;D
I am glad to find out that the cultural differences between an Austrian and Baja Nomads are not that far apart as the one from USA and Mexican :biggrin:
NOW lets continue!!

DENNIS - 12-6-2006 at 12:43 PM

I lost track...........

FARASHA - 12-6-2006 at 12:58 PM

TO fdt Bajacactus comes in my mind, or am I wrong?
Then I think - Aldosalato??Jesse?? (edited 12/7)
And I guess Sirenita is considered a mexican too ( at least 50%). And she is a youngster, that has maybe an interesting perspective, as her mom Shari (although not a native but lives fulltime for a loooong period WITH locals) - but both are right now SHAKEN and not up for a discussion, hopefully they turn up soon.

When I was in Baja last May/June, I found it amazing that the Mexican Women I met were rather socializing with me, then the Femal EX-Pats!!
And the Mexican friend I made there -she is still in contact with me! Chatting or e-mailing me once in a while.
SO there are some cultural differences, I did not expect.
The only Americans interested in socializing and are still in contact, were also Tourists.
Was an interesting outcome for me!
The other pople I know now -Living in Baja are NOMADS from this Board - Amazing! Where have you been guys whn I was there!!????:bounce:

[Edited on 7-12-2006 by FARASHA]

DENNIS - 12-6-2006 at 01:03 PM

I've heard it said in Mexico that the United States, due to its young age, actually has no culture of its own. This is nonsense of course given our European roots and imported cultural identities. It is more a way of saying the U.S. hasn't the refinement to be considered "cultural". I first came across this ugly premiss when reading a quote from a lady high in one of the past administrations, Rosario Green. It must have been an election year.

Oso - 12-6-2006 at 01:22 PM

Who can ID who said this? It might have been Mark Twain, but I'm thinking more of some 1920's writer/playwright. Anyway, it was an American at a dinner party in London and the subject of history came up. Some Grande Dame remarked that Americans had none of their own and asked what sort of history Americans studied?

"We study the wars of George III", was the reply.

DENNIS - 12-6-2006 at 01:28 PM

Have no idea but the idea is contemporary with George II.

Iflyfish - 12-6-2006 at 02:42 PM

toneart,

I agree with your post. I do not believe in predestination alone. I believe we have choices to make. I too like to inform my choices by my feelings and my thinking. I have been challenging the ethnocentricity that I see in Mexican bashing. It is easy to spew hostility at Mexicans and Mexico when Mexicans do not operate the same way that NorteAmericanos do. I am trying to point out that certain behaviors like blood sports may have a cultural value in our own culture as well as that of Mexico. I am trying to point out that the underlying motivation for activities like bullfighting may be no different than football and may have a common denominator.

I do not find your comments nitpicking but thoughtful responses to the issues raised here.

Farasha,

"Stockholm Syndrome" is exactly what I was talking about. I think there is that potential in all of us. We are in part a product of our context. Our context shapes us as well as does our internal compass. There is a bullfighter, c-ckfighter, football aficionado, boxer in all of us. These creatures suffer and die for us.


Ilfyfish

Iflyfish - 12-6-2006 at 02:55 PM

Dennis,

There indeed is an American Culture and it is alive and well. I copied this from Wikipedia.

Alexis-Charles-Henri Clérel de Tocqueville (Verneuil-sur-Seine, Île-de-France, July 29, 1805– Cannes, April 16, 1859) was a French political thinker and historian. His most famous works are Democracy in America (appearing in two volumes: 1835 and 1840) and The Old Regime and the Revolution (1856). In both of these works, he explored the myriad and profound effects of the rising equality of social conditions on both the individual and the state in western societies. Democracy in America (1835), his major work published after his travels in the United States, is today considered as a founding-stone of sociology. An eminent representative of the liberal political tradition, Tocqueville was also an active participant in French politics, first under the July Monarchy (1830-1848) and then during the Second Republic (1849-51) which succeeded to the February 1848 Revolution. He retired from political life after Louis Napoléon Bonaparte's December 2, 1851 coup, and thereafter wrote his unachieved opus, The Old Regime and the Revolution.


Had a Big Mack lately? Seen any gangsta clothes lately? Seen a movie lately? Seen Madonna on a cross in the last year or so?

The culture of the USofA is a powerful force in the world and resisted mightily in the Middle East where it challenges centuries of cultural tradition.

Iflyfish

Cypress - 12-6-2006 at 03:07 PM

All these deep thoughts are making me look for a personal flotation device.:bounce:;D;)

FARASHA - 12-6-2006 at 03:14 PM

CYPRESS - you're funny -- like it, those remarks thrown in, so we won't forget to have laugh in between.:biggrin:

HEY fdt did you stop counting?? OKAY I'll take over- 229 posts/8th day, still deceent discussion, whow what a success YOUFLYFISH !!! AND still enjoying it!:bounce:

Osprey - 12-6-2006 at 03:33 PM

I think the U.S. is losing it's Anglo culture because we are no longer using the English language to its best effect. If culture were a fruit, I say language would be the skin; the first thing we encounter in a people. I've been applauding the dialectic from afar. It's great exercize for the brain -- we have to read a point of view, decide how we feel about it, type our thoughts in the kind of English we believe will be understood and make our point -- the difference between reading and discussing an English lit classic and talking about cartoons. We need the cartoon talk to keep our sanity, the English works/art/drama to keep what little culture we have, apart from the TUBE, alive. Bravo (or more apt Olé).

FARASHA - 12-6-2006 at 03:47 PM

Good point, Osprey, I like the skin analogy.

toneart - 12-6-2006 at 04:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
All these deep thoughts are making me look for a personal flotation device.:bounce:;D;)


Cypress-
I think we are all treading water here. Glad you could jump in.
Just don't anybody flush. I don't want make that circular decent . Everybody is wonderfully keeping their heads above water.:o

toneart - 12-6-2006 at 04:40 PM

ftd- Don't forget Jesse in La Paz....Restaurante Las Tres Virgines.:D

toneart - 12-6-2006 at 04:49 PM

Osprey-
Life: blah blah blah blah and then we die. But you sure wrap it in a beautiful, lyrical package!:spingrin:

Sometimes I get a skin rash .:(

Iflyfish - 12-6-2006 at 05:30 PM

Osprey,

So the zenith of the English Language and hence Anglo Culture would have happened during the time of Shakespeare and it’s all down hill from there? It has been reported that fewer and fewer words are being used in English even though it is now considered the universal language.

Sic transit gloria mundi? Thus passes the glory of the world?

Are the languages of Mexico being lost also?

Sometimes a lyrical package, sometime skin rash. I like that. They say that the lotus grows out of the mud. I like that too.

Iflyfish

DENNIS - 12-6-2006 at 05:40 PM

Tocqueville wrote about democracy and when he applied it to America, he wasn't a big fan of it. That was clear in what he wrote which I'm sure you are all aware of.

IFF ---- Sure, we have culture and "a culture". But, we weren't born with an identifiable American culture. Our culture base is what was brought to America, through the gates of Ellis Island.

Please Please Please........ If you want to allude to our cultural Icons, try not to include Big Macs or Madonna. That's smarmy entertainment.
Mexico has drug cartels but they also have Placido Domingo and Cuco Sanchez, both, icons of their culture, as they should be.
We have Frank Sinatra and Linda Rondstadt. Would you equate their contribution to a Big Mac? I hope not.

The produce of big business in The U.S. isnt representitive of our culture. The value of their generated business may be admirable but, it isnt what we should consider a "fine' part of our culture.

IFF.... Im starting to disagree with you on basic premisses and Im glad we arn't in a bar.

I do respect your opinions none the less.

DENNIS - 12-6-2006 at 05:43 PM

This is Baja.
Car problems grow out of the mud.

Lost Languages

MrBillM - 12-6-2006 at 05:58 PM

The more lost those languages become, the better. The more people speak English, Priceless.

DENNIS - 12-6-2006 at 06:06 PM

Ah Bill -----
Your worldly mind is a treasure

Tune in at 6PM PST and I will have a few more cultural differences

fdt - 12-6-2006 at 06:16 PM

USA 12 days of Christmas, México 9 days of Posadas. Virgen de Guadalupe celebrations and others.

Worldly

MrBillM - 12-6-2006 at 06:24 PM

That's Me. Looking forward to the day when every Country is just another bunch of American towns. Same language, same Food. That's Culture.

Sounds good to me.

DENNIS - 12-6-2006 at 06:39 PM

Interesting thought, Bill-------
Three million square miles of Boston, or is it Bawston.......
English within English. Hmm.....

Well, here I am, another female

M - 12-6-2006 at 07:57 PM

Wow! this thread has certainly taken a wandering course. First off, I agree, no I wouldn't want our culture defined by big macs, nor would I want it defined by Frank Sinatra. He was a thug with a mother whos mouth would make a longshoreman blush. Ok, so he could sing a bit. Big deal, his lifestyle and how he treated people sure as heck don't represent ME! I am so exhausted tonight, but I do have plenty of thoughts on this subject, just to tired to get into it all now. In short, OF COURSE there are differences. If your mind is open, thats the beauty of it. I don't like bullfights, c-ckfights, bloodsports etc, but that is a Mexican thing and who am I to judge? I go to Baja to experience the family that doesn't have a pot to pee in, yet will still make sure I have a handfull of tortillas or tomatoes from their garden to take with me. I have more, but latter, good night yall.
M

DENNIS - 12-6-2006 at 08:06 PM

See you tomorrow M. In the meantime, dont be so mean to Ol' Blue Eyes. He isn't an icon for who he was but, for how he spoon fed a song and served a fantasy in a time when it was needed.

Mexitron - 12-6-2006 at 08:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
That's Me. Looking forward to the day when every Country is just another bunch of American towns. Same language, same Food. That's Culture.

Sounds good to me.


And that's why you live in Mexico;D

DENNIS - 12-6-2006 at 08:10 PM

Rancho Percebu --- The heart of America

toneart - 12-6-2006 at 09:57 PM

May I suggest Louis Armstrong and Duke Ellington as the premier icons of North American culture? They represented our only original art form. Currently there are so many jazz greats. Trumpeter, Wynton Marsalis is the consummate player, composer and teacher now carrying on the tradition.

Regarding Frank Sinatra, I met him on several occasions. In public, when he wasn't performing, he was often rude. I private he wouldn't give me the time of day. In spite of that, he was a musician's musician. He had the perfect voice for 20th Century popular song, the lyrical inflection, the interpretation of a song and the style to set him apart. On stage he always gave tribute to the song; the music as the really great presence. He was merely giving the music his own delivery.

Tony Bennett, although completely different than Sinatra, is another great song stylist. He endures through the decades and his popularity spans generations. Even the kids who pay attention to great music like him.

Some Mexican greats that I am aware of: Augustine Lara, a composer of great songs that still are revered today. He was in the same league as Richard Arlen and George Gershwin. Pedro Infante and actor/comedian Cantinflas were also popular icons.
And of course, there was the painter/muralist Diego Rivera and his wife Frieda Khalo. I would like to hear more about Mexican performers and artists that helped shape contemporary Mexican culture.

DENNIS - 12-6-2006 at 10:28 PM

Or, perhaps a blend of cultures as Mexico through the eye of the great American photographer, Edward Weston.
Toneart, you open a new field to explore. But, tomorrow, for me.

Hasta Mañana.

Living in Mexico

MrBillM - 12-6-2006 at 11:58 PM

Don't get me wrong. I love living in Baja, especially since I've retired. It's just that it's not some spiritual culture jag for me. If it was Belgium on the U.S. southern border, it would be fine with me, except for the fact that the cost of living would probably be a lot higher. What I love most of all is living with the Beach at my front door and being only 300 miles away from my other life. I couldn't do that anywhere in the U.S. at a cost level I would appreciate.

Although I came to Baja many, many times with my parents (beginning in 1950) for fishing, Horse Racing and Jai Alai as a child, when I first started coming on my own as a teenager, it was for surfing, fun and adventure, especially on Avenida Revolucion in Tijuana. Later, it was for more fun riding Dirt Bikes and driving offroad. The first time I ever saw San Felipe was in 1966 when we came down on The Thanksgiving holidays to ride Dirt Bikes. Living in Los Angeles, the Sea of Cortez was a great place to go in the cooler months. The Seaside became a greater attraction when I became more serious about sailing. Having the ocean for a front yard is still the number one reason I love being there. When the weather and water permit, I spend everyday in the ocean wondering why all those other people are sitting in the bar.

Although it would be great if I could run out at any time for some KFC, a Big Mac or some BBQ Ribs and everybody spoke English, I still enjoy the land, the people, the atmosphere and I'd be the last to think that anybody has to change their ways for me. It's just that I don't have any real interest in foreign cultures. It's the Place and the people (as individuals) rather than the culture I am most attracted to. I have friends from other cultures (Germany, Argentina, Uruguay, Colombia and even France) who would tell you exactly the same thing if asked. I haven't got much interest in anything about their culture, or especially their food. No inquisitive fascination for me.

Speaking of Native foods, what I enjoyed most about my last vacation in Northern Florida was that the town we stayed in had (1) Mexican Restaurant, (1) Pizza Joint and a BBQ place on every block. In two weeks, I ate more BBQ Pork and Beef than I had the previous year. Now That's CULTURE ! Pass the Sauce and bring another platter.

longlegsinlapaz - 12-7-2006 at 06:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by kellychapman
I thought I was getting it down and was getting somewhere. When I read this quote I was blown away by clearing my fog and then I read the last statement about this being a shooting gallary and removing this thread and it is was like 2 different people writing......the first so enlighting and then an ending leaving me feel awful. I hate threats as they make me feel bad or afraid to be honest and especially after making me feel so good.........we have enough BS going on this earth without stepping in it on this thread....of course there are always accidents sometimes.....


kellychapman, Thanks for liking the first part of my post! ;) It's interesting that you read my closing line as a threat! It wasn't intended that way at all....but rather it was in response to some negativity about this thread having been created in the first place...."Don't go there". I knew that the person saying that saw the great potential for this thread becoming an "us versus them" bashing & I stated that I feel it is possible to have a respectful discussion....but IF it were to turn ugly; IF it were to turn into a shooting gallery, then I'd be the first person to want to pull the plug on it.

IMHO, too many threads turn ugly & a few posts can ruin an otherwise good thread for many others. Because of the potential inherent danger in this topic, I didn't want this thread especially to become a bulletin board a bunch of negativity about our host country or it's people. I feel that iflyfish has done a good job of keeping this thread on track & got it back on track when it momentarily veered off into what I'd refer to as a "men's locker room" discussion. It is possible to state your feelings/thoughts honestly....yet respectfully....as the majority of the posts on this thread prove. This forum is like a "potluck".....everyone brings something different to the table; some more appetizing than others! :lol: But not everything that everyone brings is going to be palatable to everyone else! That's human nature....across all cultures!

FARASHA - 12-7-2006 at 08:13 AM

Thats the way I read your post Longleg - a very nice Post with a great metaphor. And a warning to those abusing this thread. Right on !!PLEASE- keep coming back ! I try too, although I sometimes loose the taste, when reading some of the posts.
Not because they contain differing opinion, rather because they are just distorting the whole idea of the thread.
It's like going to the Butcher and tell people there - to hell with it - I'M a Vegetarian. :cool:

Iflyfish - 12-7-2006 at 11:04 AM

Legs, I like the potluck metaphore.

We all experience cultural differences in Mexico. Some are infuriating and some are delightful. I am certain that the same holds true for those native Mexicans visiting the USofA.

I once had a giant fireworks wheel fall from the top of a huge tower fall right next to me. Sparks everywhere, I'm jumping like a frog leg in a shot skillet. Everyone around me was laughing. I was not. I later reflected that this is a very different response than I would have had in the USofA in the same situation. I was within an inch of my life! There must be something very different in the Mexican Culture related to death. The Day of the Dead is an excellent example. I loved Farashas posts on this.

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 12-7-2006 at 11:05 AM

LOL, I just got the butcher metaphore, Good one Farasha

Iflyfishwhennotrollingintheisles

FARASHA - 12-7-2006 at 01:58 PM

SO - what I was thinking today : what is it - that is different in the Mexican Culture that is attracting those who keep going back or live there fulltime?? Beside that it is cheaper.

Iflyfish - 12-7-2006 at 02:18 PM

Farasha, good question

For me it is the slower pace, wonderful people, amazing food, excellent fishing, sunsets, different cultural experiences.

For me there is a magic in Mexcio, Saint Days, Market Days, Festivals, Fiestas, Carnivals, Bull Fights, Paragrinations, Pilgrimages, Penitentes. I recall truning a corner in Queretaro and running into Nine foot tall paper mache statues walking down the street. A parade of clowns in St. Miguel de Allende. Attome Indians dancing outside the cathederal in Queteraro, "this is our place" gesture to the Catholics. Anthropology museum in Oaxaca with a mariposa guide who BELIEVED the ancient religion. Butterfly forests. Comida Corida. Did I mention Flan?

The guide who walked us through the amazing pyramid outside of Tlaxcala where the painted frescos were as fresh looking as the year they were painted. The guide noticing my stomach upset and applying his thumb to the web between my thumb and pointing finger and the pain going away NOW!

Did I mention the people? The amazingly resiliant Mexican people? The Mayo who took us to see the rising sun and planet itnersect through the hole in the lighthouse at sunrise on the equinox. The Yaquis who surrounded us in Los Moches and engulfed us in their Easter drama/paragrination. The swoosh, swoosh, swoosh of brooms cleaning dirt floors, immaculate dirt floors. The sound of turkeys and chickens greating the dawn. Pulsing adobe building housing the five hundred cc corn grinder in San Blas. The squeeling pig whose throat was cut on the main drag at the crack of dawn. Seeing the carcus carved by the slice in the meat market that day. The many, many kind Mexicans who have patientlysmiled while I rolled out my bastardised Spanish to then resopond in perfect English to my request.

These are some and only some of the things about my experience with Mexican culture that keeps me coming back.

Like they say in the old country:

"Estados Unitos Del Norte es por denero, Mexico es por la corizone" sorry for the spelling.

Ilfyfish

DENNIS - 12-7-2006 at 02:21 PM

For me, it's the people. Most are gracious and respectful. I appreciate that quality. I also learn from it.

Skeet/Loreto - 12-7-2006 at 02:42 PM

When it is all over, it comes down to:

"Old Dogs, Little Children, and Watermelon Wine"!

FARASHA - 12-7-2006 at 02:45 PM

WHOW THAT is a very colorful description - that comes close to a LOVE LETTER


Okay -I found somthing in this post that got me jumping
Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
The guide noticing my stomach upset and applying his thumb to the web between my thumb and pointing finger and the pain going away NOW!

IFF I tell you - THAT is a VERY common Acupuncture point (Li 4) either this man has studied the TCM, or the Mexican Culture established a similar technic - like the chinese!



"Estados Unitos Del Norte es por denero, Mexico es por la corizone"

yeah Flyfishingwhennotgettingecstaticovermexicanlife
!!!! That is mostly true I guess!!!
Farasha the Bajamariposa

[Edited on 7-12-2006 by FARASHA]

Iflyfish - 12-7-2006 at 08:26 PM

I failed to mention Naciamentos, I would imagine that I have the wrong spelling for this too. I love those!!! Will I be seeing them in Baja? Any suggestions of a neighborhood in Ensenada where I would find them? I would be happy to take someone to lunch/dinner whatever if they could guide my family on a tour of Naciementos in Ensenada over the Christmas holidays. I love them.

Ilfyfishwhennotlookingfornaciamentos

aka Iflyfishwhennotgettingecstticovermexicanlife

Farash, you are way too much fun!!!

Iflyfish

fdt - 12-7-2006 at 09:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
I failed to mention Naciamentos, I would imagine that I have the wrong spelling for this too. I love those!!! Will I be seeing them in Baja? Any suggestions of a neighborhood in Ensenada where I would find them? I would be happy to take someone to lunch/dinner whatever if they could guide my family on a tour of Naciementos in Ensenada over the Christmas holidays. I love them.

I'll swim from the malecon hasta el mogote por comida :lol:

It means that if you like I can take you arround to view the nacimientos in exchange for some tacos ;D
Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish

Farash, you are way too much fun!!!

Iflyfish

I'm more fun on a taco tour

Iflyfish - 12-7-2006 at 11:55 PM

fdt,

Are you serious. Don't you live in Tijuana. You would come to Ensenada to join my family on a tour of naciamentos and taco stands?

Now that would be a blast!!!!
That sounds like heaven to me.

I will contact you via email to clarify.

Ilfyfishwhennotchasingnaciamentosandeatingfishtacos

Thoughts in the dark.

Baja Bernie - 12-8-2006 at 08:30 AM

I have been reading this thread for some time and have asked myself the question? Just what is culture. I have not found the answer, but I have reached a few simple, to me, conclusions.

Culture equals environment so environment determines culture until we pass those basic needs and move beyond family, loyalty, integrity, honesty and all those other catchy words that have been used to describe the beginnings of good cultures.

At this point culture becomes no longer driven by how people act but more often how certain folks who would describe themselves as ‘above the common man’ begin to invent a culture that represents their environment and views. Sadly, it is at this point that the common guy and gay, knowing their place in culture begin to, at least partially, buy into aspects of this ‘new’ culture.

So the culture that has built up over the years of the experiences and environment that the majority has adopted and adapted to becomes in conflict with those few who ‘know’ that they understand what is good and necessary in a culture.

This is the place that I believe that many of those folks moving to Baja find themselves. (I sure know I did.) They no longer care for the culture that has morphed into something that they not only do not care for, but to one that they are basically unable to be comfortable with.

The younger people reject the ‘phony’ culture that proscribes their activities. They remain in the general culture—but far removed from its values— and lash out with their own ‘countercultures’ or fads.

Some mature members of the basic culture wander into Baja, scratch the surface of that culture, and believe that they like the values of family, integrity, honesty, etc and decide that this is a very comfortable place where they could fit in with quite nicely.

Time passes and they begin to tinker with the culture or environment because, well they really are above the common man and that they surely know better the direction that the ‘culture’ needs to follow.

So just what is culture. For my money it surely is not what kind of food or music one listens to or how a person dresses.

To me it is at that point that the many have bought into the ‘basic values of a society’—sadly it is also at about this point that the accepted culture or comfortable environment begins to be rejected by the few. The “isms” begin to take over and the wants and needs of the basic culture are soon rejected and forgotten—as are its members.

And, boy! That is another story entirely.

PS Read this to the wife and her reaction was, “I always thought of culture as the overcoat of society!” I responded, “you mean the top hat.”
So, I guess that sums it up (maybe) culture is what ones point of view makes it.

I take my hat off to all of the views expressed here.

capn.sharky - 12-8-2006 at 10:14 AM

I will add my dos pesos now....to get along in Mexico remember the three most important things....respect, respect, respect. Everything else should fall into place.

FARASHA - 12-8-2006 at 10:38 AM

HM - interesting thoughts Bernie. Had similar considerations.
AND was comparing it to MY cultur I grew up with, to the one's I had choosen to live with (for some time), or was confronted with, while traveling.

AND now pondering the Question
- as Culture is also Tradition -
Is this what makes the People look for other Places to live, fulltime or parttime??
What attracts us to places like Baja, Mexico, ......
The need for a rural atmophere, crime free (hm, or think so that it is), with Values and Traditions we miss in OUR Environment? Beside more space to stretch ( what we could do also in Lake Tahoe or Alberta or in a Yellowstone National Park, or in the Alps)
Are we seeking a place with Archaic Structures? Is this what charmes us??

Just some thoughts from Farashathebajamariposawhosuffersthroughwinter
(IFF I just found a liking in this ART of signing)

DENNIS - 12-8-2006 at 01:26 PM

Culture is the beneficial accomplishments of a society.

Iflyfish - 12-8-2006 at 02:00 PM

Here is a link to Wikopedia definition of Culture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture

Interesting reading.

Baja Bernie,

So much in your post. Must reply at another time. Packing now for the journey South!

Ilfyfish

FARASHA - 12-8-2006 at 03:03 PM

That is was I was talking all the way long - RESPECTING other PEOPLE as well as their VALUES i e CULTURE - and I do think that certain cultures show MORE respect then others.
And the so called CIVILIZED Cultures seems to have lost Respect.

DENNIS - 12-8-2006 at 05:00 PM

No way FARASHA --
Mexican people are the most gracious people I've met on a face to face basis but when left on their own, the most selfish and self centered. That is evident in their driving style. They [ not all but, most] will run you off the road one minute and kiss your cheek when you subsequently meet them in the parking lot. It may not be disrespect for you but, a chance for self-respect in a culture which made waiting a part of everyday life.
Franz Kafka could have done wonders with the Metamorphasis that takes place in the Mexican persona from the street to the drivers street.

I'm taken to another scenario, one which I'm sure we are all familiar with if we shop in the local stores.
A Mexican shopper with a cart will stop in the middle of the aisle and step to the other side to examine products on the shelf, consequently blocking the aisle. You approach with your basket and come to a stand-still because the aisle is blocked. You wait a moment before saying, "Con Permiso", and the Mexican will look at you like you just popped up out of the ground. She will smile and say all sorts of nice stuff and move her basket.
The point is, she is unaware that she may be blocking others passage until it is brought to her attention. To her it isn't anything but an expected social interaction.
To us, it is rude.
What I'm trying to say, I hope, is that selfish and self-centered to us is, in this case, is the accepted way of life for Mexicans.

It's all good if we just forget that we absolutely know it all. There's a reason, albeit sometimes inscrutible, for most everything.

Iflyfish - 12-8-2006 at 05:17 PM

Dennis,

If the typical Mexican is living in the moment, which I have come to believe, then what you are describing makes perfect sense. The interpretation of that behavior as disrespectful is just that, an interpretation. I know how infuriating this can be. I sometimes get really hot when people are not considering those around them. I don't know if any disrespect is meant by the act of parking in front of someone else or if it is just done because in the moment is auspicious in that that parking place presented itself.

I recall watching a car stop in the right hand lane in a city in Mexico while the driver went in to shop. They turned on their emergency lights. I concluded after a lot of gnashing of teeth that the person was making what they considered to be a thoughtful gesture by turning on the lights. I wonder if they were saying either "I am really not here" or "I don't intend to park here but and doing so for only a few minutes so it is not a problem". I suspect that latter is the way it is.

Great story. This is the stuff of the differences.

Iflyfish

FARASHA - 12-8-2006 at 05:34 PM

GOODY I Like those responses, as they bring up examples now from everydays Life.
By Lack of respect I didn't think about those mentioned thoughtless actions ( Parking lot, Suprmarket..).
I think of respect rather as accepting somebody elses opinion or way of life, instead of critiising it, running it down.
And getting VERY low in the behavior, or getting verbally abusive.

DENNIS - 12-8-2006 at 05:53 PM

IFF -----
Yours is an example, well known to anybody living here, that falls into the framework of common cultural behavior. It's far too common, to be sure, and comes from the arrogance of the well-to-do. Park in the middle of the road because you can afford to park in the middle of the road. Besides, the a-hole parked in the middle of the road probably knows somebody or is somebody. I cant put this activity into the catagory of cultural difference. I put it into the catagory of power abuse. Very distasteful but a real part of Mexico.

DENNIS - 12-8-2006 at 05:58 PM

By the way IFF -------------
My take on it is, the Typical Mexican isn't living in The moment, they are living in their personal moment.
Perhaps a biig difference.

FARASHA - 12-8-2006 at 05:59 PM

DENNIS - tell you, seen this in other places too - mostly in places were people take their time, don't think that others maybe don't have this time.
And I was screaming inside - as I was in a rush. But they do not consider this as being superior - no - they think not that far. It's they HAVE time!!

Iflyfish - 12-8-2006 at 06:11 PM

Dennis,

Is it just the affluent Mexicans that you see parking in this way? We have not focused our discussion as yet on the different social classes that exist in Mexico and the USofA.

One of the "dirty little secrets" of the Norteamerican Culture is that there is a rigid caste or class system. One must know what one is looking for to identify the trappings of the elite class. I can assure you that it isn't the mullet. An excellent example sits in the White House. His boots are not the sort that you wear, I can guarantee you that. There is a taboo in the USofA about discussing class. Most want to deny it’s existence and want to view the USofA as egalitarian. It isn’t.

Most of the ruling class dress very carefully so as to be able to identify themselves to each other. There is a lot of focus on maintaining certain forms of decorum. I wonder how this is manifest in Mexico.

I know that skin color is one of the elements of the caste system in Mexico. It is in the USofA also. There used to be complex rules related to identifying race in the USofA. I am reading There's a Word for It in Mexico and an elaborate system exists there also for making these distinctions.

Thanks for sharing this example.

Iflyfish

DENNIS - 12-8-2006 at 06:14 PM

We're talking about different things, FARASHA. We went from the grocery store to the street. Different scenario.
The obstruction in the store isn't done out of superiority. It's just a matter of an intent shopper.
On the other hand, the person who parks his car in the street, blocking those who want to get by as well as those parked inside of him, double-parked as we call it, is an A-HOLE. A selfish all-consumed power **** of an A-HOLE.
Unfortunatly, it is also a cultural trait stemming from the culture of power.
Those people are usually the first ones to tell about the blessings of democracy because they know it has nothing to do with them.

Respecting family values

Lee - 12-8-2006 at 06:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FARASHA
That is was I was talking all the way long - RESPECTING other PEOPLE as well as their VALUES i e CULTURE - and I do think that certain cultures show MORE respect then others. And the so called CIVILIZED Cultures seems to have lost Respect.


Let's look at this from a Nortenos point of view. It wasn't too long ago that Mayans were cutting beating hearts out of living people (usually unwillingly) as a sacrifice. That was their culture. Would I have had to respect that if I lived there at that time?

I propose that for someone like me, keeping my mouth shut around neighbors who love c-ckfighting is showing respect. Personally, I wouldn't live around people who love c-ckfighting. If c-ckfighting is culture, then I have a big judgment about it that I keep to myself. Except when I'm posting on this forum.

Let's define culture. Wikepedia says: most commonly use the term "culture" to refer to the universal human capacity to classify, codify and communicate their experiences symbolically. This capacity has long been taken as a defining feature of the humans.

Classify, and communicate experiences -- that's what I read. So what? I need to pay homage to someone's unique experience? Maybe maybe not.

There are pockets of culture here in Colorado. I don't think of it that way but I'm sure it exists. I don't see culture being an issue here, so I don't think I need to become a culture groupie to fit in anywhere else in the world.

Here's a bit of culture I see in Baja: Mexicans like to drink on Sunday and drive around. I'm sure there are white folks among them. They'll get up on your bumper, pass on a hill, drive like it's an emergency, and that's culture to them.

Me? I'll bust these folks and their culture, if I get a chance.

Culture is good and it's bad. If it's spiritual, it's good. If it's alot of unhealthy habits that are hard to break, then the gloves are off.

No disrespect intended above and my comments only reflect my culture.

One other thing, I think it's common, even part of the culture, for Mexican men to have mistresses. And then go to church on Sunday with the family like they are the holiest of men. Family values, right?

:cool:

Iflyfish - 12-8-2006 at 06:16 PM

Farasha,

I think that this notion that "everyone must have time as I do" is very common. I think that one of the cultural differences between Mexico and the USofA is the focus in the north on time. We know that peoples concept of time is different. One of the ways that people used to distinguish German Culture is that the trains ran on time. This was not the case in much of the rest of Europe.

My early years were on a farm in North Dakota and I know that sun rise and sun set were what bounded the day and the seasons dictated the activity, not the clock.

Interesting concept.

Iflyfish

Barry A. - 12-8-2006 at 06:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
Dennis,

Is it just the affluent Mexicans that you see parking in this way? We have not focused our discussion as yet on the different social classes that exist in Mexico and the USofA.

One of the "dirty little secrets" of the Norteamerican Culture is that there is a rigid caste or class system. One must know what one is looking for to identify the trappings of the elite class. I can assure you that it isn't the mullet. An excellent example sits in the White House. His boots are not the sort that you wear, I can guarantee you that. There is a taboo in the USofA about discussing class. Most want to deny it’s existence and want to view the USofA as egalitarian. It isn’t.

Most of the ruling class dress very carefully so as to be able to identify themselves to each other. There is a lot of focus on maintaining certain forms of decorum. I wonder how this is manifest in Mexico.

I know that skin color is one of the elements of the caste system in Mexico. It is in the USofA also. There used to be complex rules related to identifying race in the USofA. I am reading There's a Word for It in Mexico and an elaborate system exists there also for making these distinctions.

Thanks for sharing this example.

Iflyfish


Fly------Personally I think you are REALLY off base on this one, but to each his own. Class system dressing my fanny!?!?!?!! Judas Monster, no wonder we have so much trouble seeing eye to eye with each other in this country. I am stupified!!!! (Is that a word??)

DENNIS - 12-8-2006 at 06:30 PM

IFF ---
Mexicans focus on not being on time as much as we focus on being on time. Just a different value.

Iflyfish - 12-8-2006 at 06:32 PM

It is indeed a word. I don't think that the root applies to you however.

You don't think that the USofA has a class system? or you don't think that they dress in ways that identify them to eachother? or both?

I think that discussing Social Classs in the USofA is a taboo and I have broken it.

Iflyfish

DENNIS - 12-8-2006 at 06:33 PM

Drug dealers wear the finest suits available.

Iflyfish - 12-8-2006 at 06:36 PM

Dennis, had me chuckling with that one.

"Mexicans focus on not being on time as much as we focus on being on time. Just a different value."

So you think Mexicans sit around and think "hmm, too early, hmmm I think I will be late to pee those Anglos off?"

I think that the experience of time is very different. Ever "loose track of time"? I sure do. Fact I lose track of lots of things now, but I digress, but I digress a lot now a days too. One of the things I do when going on vacation is to put my clock away. I sincerly doubt that the typical Mexican would even be this conscious of time.

I wonder what others think. Do Mexicans have a different concept to time?

Iflyfish

Fly----

Barry A. - 12-8-2006 at 06:41 PM

People certainly tend to hang with their peers-----and I don't think we will ever "cure" that one. But I have not seen anybody that I can identify as "class dressing" in order to Id each other---------who does that beside "gangs" and club members, and they are not "classes"?? Maybe I am missing something here.

I would hesitate to say that there are really "classes" in this country------I just don't see it, and I think even bringing it up does more harm than good. Wow, now we are all going to be "on the lookout" for some dude class-dressing! Makes me uncomfortable.

DENNIS - 12-8-2006 at 06:49 PM

Yeah, they do.

My neighbor would have a New Years Eve party and set the time for 8PM. I would show up at 8PM. I sat there alone for two hours. My neighbor finally explained it all to me [we had a close relationship] that it was considered rude to show up early, what we would consider,"on time". So, I was rude.
Being North American I was also crude and cultureless
She was lacking in a few things as well but, that's another story.

Osprey - 12-8-2006 at 06:54 PM

I'll reprise one of my oldies but goodies here because it fits.
Quizás







Yesterday the beach was a war zone. Well, maybe a miniature war zone. Squadrons of dragonflies, wave after wave of tiny helicopters, strafed the beach. The mission: find and eat every small bug on the beach. A million sorties following some unseen leader with orders to move west but stay between the shore and the palms.
While I was pretending to be an heroic war correspondent risking my neck to give the world the real-time sights and sounds of the action along the beachhead, two Mexican fishing boats roared through the surf, up onto the beach. Pepe and his brothers said their hellos. Pepe said the sigarones, the dragonflies, signaled rain. When I asked him when we could expect the rain he answered with his grinning-pirate look, it said it pleased him to be vague.
His brother, Juan, said they come out after a rain. Juan has the look and demeanor of a Mexican Archie Bunker. Who should I believe? If we throw out the niggardly constraints of time, they are both right.
This is how I spend my time in Mexico -- having to choose between two (or more) answers to every question. The land may be mostly implacable granite and prickly cactus but it is pure quicksand for anyone looking for a hard-and-fast answer to anything. In order to better communicate I have forced myself to be a better listener. I have not learned enough. I use the words siempre and nunca, always and never, as and when the conversation dictates. These words are rarely spoken in this pueblo -- perhaps used little in all of Mexico. In a land where nothing is what it appears to be I should expect to hear probables and posibles, a vezes, quisás manana. (probably, possibly, at times, perhaps tomorrow) The language demonstrates the basic fatalistic view of the Mexican people. Fatalism defines the culture, pervades every sector of society.

The bending, warping of time is not culturally unique but it stands out like a c-ckroach on a wedding cake when compared to the U.S. cultural imperative, the atomic clock exactitudes we are so proud of, the "seventeen jewels that dictate the rules".
The western world misinterprets the Mexican time view and world view, sees the people as non-productive, lazy. Time, taken in the abstract, the Mexican way, offsets the Judeo/Christian stigma of guilt. The time-bending thing allows Mexicans to enjoy the leisure and forgiveness of a mas o menos attitude about how they run their daily lives. Being a day early or three days late does not call for a trip to the confessional, a single mea culpa. When two compadres joke with one another, the word lazy, flojo, is often used but it evokes laughter not scorn.
Only now, after spending a few years in Mexico, am I beginning to understand and appreciate the subtlety of these quirks of culture. One day I may reap some of the benefits myself. I won't bore you with a long list of wonderful side effects but we can both feel the obvious orgullo de patria, country pride, a Mexican worker must feel, arriving a week late for work, upon learning that his whole crew was laid off several days ago.

DENNIS - 12-8-2006 at 07:03 PM

What do you think, Osprey---
Will the Mexican trait of Orgullo de Patria and the U.S. demand for Pride of Efficiency ever come together?
Perhaps if they both agree to bend a bit.

Well written, your piece above. Thanks.

[Edited on 12-9-2006 by DENNIS]

Natalie Ann - 12-8-2006 at 08:11 PM

I've always loved this little story of yours, Osprey... and it is so particularly well-bent to the issues of this thread. Feels comfortable the way you talk of it. Thank you.

Lee - 12-8-2006 at 08:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
People certainly tend to hang with their peers-----and I don't think we will ever "cure" that one. But I have not seen anybody that I can identify as "class dressing" in order to Id each other---------who does that beside "gangs" and club members, and they are not "classes"?? Maybe I am missing something here.

I would hesitate to say that there are really "classes" in this country------I just don't see it, and I think even bringing it up does more harm than good. Wow, now we are all going to be "on the lookout" for some dude class-dressing! Makes me uncomfortable.


Where do you live? Not Orange County, or Beverly Hills, or Boulder. Do you live in a suburb where every house is one of 3 models?

Class is an issue here but more hidden than Mexico. Except in the above towns.

:cool:

Roberto - 12-8-2006 at 08:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
No way FARASHA --
Mexican people are the most gracious people I've met on a face to face basis but when left on their own, the most selfish and self centered. That is evident in their driving style. They [ not all but, most] will run you off the road one minute and kiss your cheek when you subsequently meet them in the parking lot...


A very wise Mexican lady who is a friend and I were discussing this one evening while leaving (trying to) Pavarotti's performance near Mexicali a couple of years back.

When I asked her why Mexicans are so elaborately courteous normally and so totally uncivilized when driving, she responded - "because when driving they don't have to look you in the face". :o

That's from a Mexican. Americans who "LOOOOVVVVVE" Mexico put all kinds of romantic notions around Mexican culture. I've said this before - people are people, pretty much everywhere you go. There are cultural differences, for sure, but when dealing one-on-one, things simplify quite a bit. And a lot of what is often attributed to "culture" is more related to social condition - when you don't have much, the world tends to take on a different perspective, and farmers and poor people are very similar around the world. We compare people who live in what would be considered mansions, drive around in vehicles worth more than people make in MANY years of work to folks who live day-by-day, by the fruit of their ingenuity, no credit. THAT'S the biggest cultural gap of all.

[Edited on 12-9-2006 by Roberto]

Lee------

Barry A. - 12-8-2006 at 09:09 PM

I live in Redding, CA----a town of about 85K people, with the most intermixed collection of houses I have ever seen----all mixed up. I see no class here, but maybe I am blind.

I grew up, and lived for 30 years, in Coronado, CA which is a pretty "classy" town, but even there I saw little evidence of a "class conscious" society, even tho we were deffinitely not in the earning category of most living there. My widowed Mom was a teacher in a private nursery school. We were treated like everybody else in town, or so it seemed to us.

kellychapman - 12-8-2006 at 09:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
Dennis, had me chuckling with that one.

"Mexicans focus on not being on time as much as we focus on being on time. Just a different value."

So you think Mexicans sit around and think "hmm, too early, hmmm I think I will be late to pee those Anglos off?"

I think that the experience of time is very different. Ever "loose track of time"? I sure do. Fact I lose track of lots of things now, but I digress, but I digress a lot now a days too. One of the things I do when going on vacation is to put my clock away. I sincerly doubt that the typical Mexican would even be this conscious of time.

I wonder what others think. Do Mexicans have a different concept to time?

Iflyfish
this is making me laugh....do mexicans have a different concept of time...of course they do.....and it is different then it is for those that wear a watch....sure is nice to not wear one here in Loreto....it gets done when it gets done.....:bounce:

kellychapman - 12-8-2006 at 09:40 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by lencho
Quote:
Originally posted by FARASHA
SO - what I was thinking today : what is it - that is different in the Mexican Culture that is attracting those who keep going back or live there fulltime?? Beside that it is cheaper.


3 words:

heart vs head

--Larry
its beautiful....and I do not have to be on time.....:bounce:

kellychapman - 12-8-2006 at 09:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Osprey
I'll reprise one of my oldies but goodies here because it fits.
Quizás







Yesterday the beach was a war zone. Well, maybe a miniature war zone. Squadrons of dragonflies, wave after wave of tiny helicopters, strafed the beach. The mission: find and eat every small bug on the beach. A million sorties following some unseen leader with orders to move west but stay between the shore and the palms.
While I was pretending to be an heroic war correspondent risking my neck to give the world the real-time sights and sounds of the action along the beachhead, two Mexican fishing boats roared through the surf, up onto the beach. Pepe and his brothers said their hellos. Pepe said the sigarones, the dragonflies, signaled rain. When I asked him when we could expect the rain he answered with his grinning-pirate look, it said it pleased him to be vague.
His brother, Juan, said they come out after a rain. Juan has the look and demeanor of a Mexican Archie Bunker. Who should I believe? If we throw out the niggardly constraints of time, they are both right.
This is how I spend my time in Mexico -- having to choose between two (or more) answers to every question. The land may be mostly implacable granite and prickly cactus but it is pure quicksand for anyone looking for a hard-and-fast answer to anything. In order to better communicate I have forced myself to be a better listener. I have not learned enough. I use the words siempre and nunca, always and never, as and when the conversation dictates. These words are rarely spoken in this pueblo -- perhaps used little in all of Mexico. In a land where nothing is what it appears to be I should expect to hear probables and posibles, a vezes, quisás manana. (probably, possibly, at times, perhaps tomorrow) The language demonstrates the basic fatalistic view of the Mexican people. Fatalism defines the culture, pervades every sector of society.

The bending, warping of time is not culturally unique but it stands out like a c-ckroach on a wedding cake when compared to the U.S. cultural imperative, the atomic clock exactitudes we are so proud of, the "seventeen jewels that dictate the rules".
The western world misinterprets the Mexican time view and world view, sees the people as non-productive, lazy. Time, taken in the abstract, the Mexican way, offsets the Judeo/Christian stigma of guilt. The time-bending thing allows Mexicans to enjoy the leisure and forgiveness of a mas o menos attitude about how they run their daily lives. Being a day early or three days late does not call for a trip to the confessional, a single mea culpa. When two compadres joke with one another, the word lazy, flojo, is often used but it evokes laughter not scorn.
Only now, after spending a few years in Mexico, am I beginning to understand and appreciate the subtlety of these quirks of culture. One day I may reap some of the benefits myself. I won't bore you with a long list of wonderful side effects but we can both feel the obvious orgullo de patria, country pride, a Mexican worker must feel, arriving a week late for work, upon learning that his whole crew was laid off several days ago.
never better said....thank you for your words of wisdom ...do you have more to share????..

kellychapman - 12-8-2006 at 09:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by capn.sharky
I will add my dos pesos now....to get along in Mexico remember the three most important things....respect, respect, respect. Everything else should fall into place.
3 chears for Respect Respect Respect........here are my dos pesos.....

Bob H - 12-8-2006 at 09:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
IFF ---
Mexicans focus on not being on time as much as we focus on being on time. Just a different value.


I'm with Dennis on this one. For me, being on time is just being respectful of others expectations. How hard is it to be on time? Huh? Jeeze..... Bob H

kellychapman - 12-8-2006 at 10:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
That's Me. Looking forward to the day when every Country is just another bunch of American towns. Same language, same Food. That's Culture.

Sounds good to me.
that's culture....:no: that's scary.....thats a horrible thought.....and why not just stay in America instead of taking over the world.....:o

kellychapman - 12-8-2006 at 10:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FARASHA
Finally back on OUR thread - busy days nowadays at work.

Great Kelly that you finally turned up here - you are living fulltime in BCS - I wonder if you have contact with Mexican women? IF so what differences can you see?

YES toneart, I agree - this board IS male dominated by those reasons you mentioned, I figured this too.
And NO I do not feel that I'm standing alone with my point of view. Rather the other way around, quite often in my Life I get to hear that I'm too analytical/rational, which dosn't apply for a WOMAN (for some people). I find myself often in a rather male led discussion, then in a femal tea circle.
That made me here wonder again, as I thought this is an NON gender related issue - so why no females??
I just missed some femal voices, in addition to Mexican voices.
It's my profession kicking in - to hear ALL perspectives on a Subject. And for those who will now ask - I'm working in the mental departement. So human behavior and their reasons/results are my daily business.
I found many posts on this thread that saved me the time to post myself. THANKS to them ;D
I am glad to find out that the cultural differences between an Austrian and Baja Nomads are not that far apart as the one from USA and Mexican :biggrin:
NOW lets continue!!
Hola dear Farasha...as usual I am never on time...lol....its contagious here...and yes I do have contact with alot of the Mexican women. In reality it is the same here as the rest of the world.....women rule when it really comes down to it in the family unit.....and as long as the women are happy, then everybody else is toooooo......:bounce:

kellychapman - 12-8-2006 at 10:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Oso
Having seen "Midnight Express", I ain't never going to Turkey, no how, no way.:o


"There are only three true sports: Bullfighting, Mountaineering, and Auto Racing. The rest are just games."
-E. Hemingway
well I would not go to Turkey either if I planned on smuggling a waistband of hashhish back home....unless of course I followed mommas rule of "never let them see you sweat. I once had a freindship with a very rich and famous man and wife...only because of my husband as they both made me sick....but she did tell me that in all her world travels..and belive me there were many with their wealth....and she told me that the museums in Istanbul Turkey were of some of the finest in the world. But if your up to no good then Turkey is NOT the place to do it.....:cool:

kellychapman - 12-8-2006 at 10:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Iflyfish
I started this topic as a place to discuss cultural differences. I wonder if they can be discussed without rancor and just as differences.

I notice that when I ask directions in Mexico that the person I have asked will often give me directions, even when I sense that they really don't know the direction. Are they just trying to please and give some hope that I will find something? Are they not wanting to displease by saying “I don’t know”? Is it not ok to not have an answer? I am curious about this phenomenon.

I have experienced people in the height of good feelings and good will offer to meet me or do something or other and then not be there or do what they say they will do. I wonder if this is the product of living “in the moment” so that the expression of positive social outcome, i.e. “I will meet you for dinner tomorrow evening” means “I am enjoying your and our interaction” enough that I would even continue it at some time if that worked out”?

In the Book Men are From Venus and Women Mars, or something like that, or Tannen’s You Don’t Understand me, the author talked about the psychological level transaction that underlies woman’s’ interactions, it goes some thing like this, “how are we doing?”, “are we ok with each other now?” Observing men interacting with each other his/her, view was that they were interested in dominance and control, or social positioning. “Who is on top,” “Who is the most expert, stronger, most knowledgeable”? Etc. If this paradigm holds true, I wonder if those Mexican people that I have mentioned above are simply operating out of a more “feminine” mode of interaction where the focus on the relationship in the now is paramount?

Brain science has taught us that the left-brain is the rational, logical side, while the right-brain is the more intuitive, affectively focused lobe. In this context men would tend more toward left dominance while women more the right. Again stereotypes but some general truth to this proposition I think. Using this paradigm is the typical Mexican more likely to be right brained?

Notice I am not making a value judgment as to which side of the brain is superior, or which function is preferable, hopefully we would have significant balance in our domain dominance.
We need both.

I know that there are native Mexicans on this list and I would be interested in hearing from them also what differences they notice. One that I have heard is that the Norte Americano are always in a hurry, that they are rude because they do not take time to inquire about the family etc.

I think that this is a topic that often leads to misunderstanding between peoples because these differences often generate negative feelings based upon misunderstandings of the other cultures ways of doing things. I noticed in a discussion on another topic that a couple of Nomads seemed to have their feelings hurt when discussing this sort of cultural difference. That saddened me. I think it can be difficult to discuss these things without one or the other feeling insulted. However if one can see these as only differences then greater understanding can occur. If I interpret my friends not showing up for lunch as he said he would as a slight or insult to me, as I would if a Norte Americano did the same, then I might be missing a deeper connection or cultural difference. I might miss entirely that he was saying how much he enjoyed me when he said he was going to meet me for lunch.

Anyway, I hope others will share some of the differences that they have noticed. I think this could be a very interesting discussion. Just please don’t start your sentances with Mexicans do…….or Norte Americano’s do……….. Not all Mexicans are the same nor are all Norte Americano’s. There are regional differences in the US of A that one can notice as one travels. I have noticed this in Mexico also. What is your experience with this? I wonder if our native Mexican Nomads have noticed these differences when traveling up north?

Iflyfish when not stirring up hornets nests
I have read this quote many times and I can only say I am saddened you and your family are not coming all the way to Loreto as it would be so much fun to meet and show you more then all the good taco stands....and all the things to do....:no: it would be an honor to drink some tequilla with and listen to some of your stories and views about life....of course bring your wife too...lol bounce::bounce:

Cute, but...

Dave - 12-8-2006 at 11:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Osprey
Only now, after spending a few years in Mexico, am I beginning to understand and appreciate the subtlety of these quirks of culture. One day I may reap some of the benefits myself. I won't bore you with a long list of wonderful side effects but we can both feel the obvious orgullo de patria, country pride, a Mexican worker must feel, arriving a week late for work, upon learning that his whole crew was laid off several days ago.


Not if you're the boss. :mad:

I often wonder where most Mexicans learn their cavalier attitude about timeliness, especially when someone else is paying for it.

Do they learn it in School?

Does the bell ring only when students decide to show up? Do they turn in assignments whenever the mood strikes them?

Or maybe from the surgeon?

"Want that emergency appendectomy now or mañana?"

Quirk of culture or labor law?

I frequently talk with Mexican employers about deportment. They tell me that when their employees show up late or not at all...It's because they can.

Iflyfish - 12-9-2006 at 02:13 AM

KellyChapman

Thank you. The feeling is mutual. There are so many wonderful people on this site. I hope we do meet some Nomads while we are in Baja.

Iflyfish

Osprey - 12-9-2006 at 07:34 AM

Kelly, I have more to share. I wish the Mexican congress could send an envoy to see the Pope, get some special dispensation, change Easter just enough to nudge it into June. In June the wind is not much of a problem here. Since Easter is not the same days each year It is uncanny bad luck that the wind blows here, ruins the one time Mexican celebrants need calm days and blue skies.

Happy (Mexican) Campers


Ten O six A.M. A cassette was slipped into the player powered by a humongous amplifier. The unearthly noise blasted from the mega woofers with enough force to nearly rupture the tympanic membrane; dislodge the delicate malleus and stirrup which struggled to stay in place, recognize and reduce the overwhelming signals, send them on to the brain.

Thus began Semana Santa. There are uncountable places on the planet where Easter week is a time for religious solemnity, prayer and quietude. Not here. This little village plays host each year to more than 500 Easter celebrants who turn our quiet beaches into noisy campgrounds. Come close to the shore and your senses will be jarred, excited, tested. Acrid smoke from driftwood campfires lifts the pungent bite of chorizo frying with eggs and chilis, flavors and pervades the crowded place. Tents, campers, trucks, cars and people are tightly packed, chockablock. A time for showing off the brilliant colors of clothes, tents, beach towels – nothing subdued here. Scores of small children frolick in the surf, oblivious to the riotous pulsing of the huge vocinos, speakers, the daylong chatter of the man near the stage. He must love the sound of his own crisp and witty pronouncements -- his rapid fire delivery can only be drowned out by the music.

The village prepares for the event as though the guests had rented the place. Graders improve the dirt roads to and around the camping areas, port-a-potties are deployed. Shades and a large stage are erected. Police, ambulance and first aid people patrol the area day and night. The local garbage crews keep the whole staging area clean and free of glass or metal that could cut the children’s feet.

All the small stores in town are well-stocked with beer, ice, water, paper products, eggs and hotdogs. At our house we stocked up long ago, put extra milk and bread in our freezer, eggs in the fridge. At our house we pray. Not so much to consecrate the memory of the Resurrection but to ask for good camping weather for the hard working vacationers. Looks like this year our prayers have been answered.

FARASHA - 12-9-2006 at 10:10 AM

MY concept of TIME
OMG - soooo many posts - can't keep track and/or respond as I want too - I simply would run out of my TIME.
OOOPS - hang on, what time? It's saturday, now why I don't have the time?
HA! I want to squeeze in ALL what I couldn't fix during week, as during week I am at work and have no tim time to get anything done afterwards ( or not as much). So it had to wait for weekend.
HM - if it could wait for weekend - well then it isn't that important anyway, and if I wait a bit longer, maybe it fixes itself.
BY: A) either someone else is doing it,
or B) I don't need it anymore!!
HEY I found a solution for my problem of lack of time - I'll go for A) or B) :biggrin:

Great post the last 12 hours - lots of time spent gals and guys - I see, you found my solution A+B before me!!??

Thanks to OSPREY - wonderful and made me grin a lot - absolutly hit the nail!!
DRESS and other Codes - OH YEAH - watch the youngsters, watch the women !!
It is GUCCI if you got the cash - if not then a fake!!
If not Victorias Secret - then well Macy's SALE is a chance.
BOOBS - if you got the cash, Push up Bra for those who can't afford.:biggrin:
and don't tell me the guys are not into it, some words -CARS, BOATS, FISHING ROD, etc..............THAT is a CODE too, and it differentiates the UPPERCLASSES, Middlclasses, and Trailertrash, and Socialwelfarers. Or am I wrong??:?:

Iflyfish - 12-11-2006 at 12:02 AM

This has been fun. I have enjoyed all of the posts and points of view expressed in this dialogue. We did manage to discuss some real differences and yet keep the discussion positive. I hope that this can continue on Nomads. Differences are differences and that alone. This cross cultural undertaking is at times very challenging as Osprey so eloquently discribes, and yet so rewarding as our eyes open and we SEE. Aha, a difference! G,D! Grrrrrr, oh, it's a difference.


We are nearly ready to hit the road and head south to Baja. I have learned so much, laughed a lot and fired some shots over some bows, Not bad action for one site.

Feliz Navidad e Prospero Nuavo Ano \
Merry Christmas and a Happy and Prosperous New Year.

We are in an 06 Winnebago View with "Got Baja" stickers. If you see us, say hello!

Iflyfish

Iflyfish

Thoughts from the smoked seal thread

Lee - 12-11-2006 at 09:56 PM

Just watched the dolphin massacre and thought that the killing (how the dolphins were rounded up, hauled behind a pickup tied to a rope) is part of the Jap culture.

Personally, I think the Japanese are in the same boat as the Mexicans who killed the whales at Scammons around the 1850s.

My question to those who are PC minded: respect the Japanese and their culture?

Respect the Mexicans who killed whales culturally?

Same? Different?

:cool:

FARASHA - 12-12-2006 at 12:04 AM

:?: I just don't know, to tell the truth -LEE. If it IS part of Culture - then it needs EDUCATION to get people understand WHAT they do to Nature. And that there are other options.
BUT in the case of the JAPANESE it is not just A culture thing, it is a BIG COMMERCIAL interest.
Plus I would say that Japan is not underdeveloped, not a 3rd World Country, with people under the povertyline - who need to feed their families - which way ever.
Beside that the Japanese have a VERY different perspective on NATURE and LIFE anyway(always had).
And I have to admit - I have more understanding for Mexican's earning a living with it, then for the Japanese - for the above reasons.

But still it is a different Life they live, and I do not have an IN DEPHT understanding about the Japanese Culture.

Iflyfish - 12-12-2006 at 02:38 AM

Lee,

There once was a time of abundance..............not now.

Iflyfishwhenignoringracialslurs

fdt - 12-12-2006 at 03:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Lee

Respect the Mexicans who killed whales culturally?



:cool:

What mexicans are you talking about?
The Scammon Martinez or the Scammon Lopez. Then there was Jose Francisco Jimenez Scammon.
:?::?::?::?:

It was Scammon who, in the winter of 1857-58, would discover the existence of the lagoons where hundreds of Gray Whales came annually to give birth. It was Scammon who would initiate the whalers' brutal slaughter of pregnant or nursing females. Without their mothers, the calves could not survive to make the northern journey. During the early 1850s, there may still have been upwards of twenty thousand California Gray Whales. Within two decades, probably less than two thousand remained to keep the species alive.
From Dick Russel's Eye of the whale.

It wasn't los mejicanos

http://www.du.edu/~ttyler/ploughboy/starbuck.htm

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