BajaNomad - loreto bay, again

loreto bay, again

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Crusoe - 5-5-2007 at 03:35 PM

Here's The Key Phrase.......That was then and this is now!......In the mid 1970's near Manzanillo, Mex. a Bolivinan tin and mining billionare built the resort Las Hadas. The famous Bo Dereck movie 10 was filmed there on location. That set off an unprecedented boom to the area from northamericanos. Just north of Manzinillo Bay there is another bay named Santiago Bay. There was a huge, huge time share condo speculation development going on there where they sold the same condos 50 times over and over.Hundreds of people were swindeled out of millions and millions of there retirement funds and the codo's were never actually completed and sat dormant for years and years . People lost 100% of their investments which many times ran from 50 to 100% of the full price. Then in the mid 1980's same scenrio I was made aware of was happening all over Puerto Vallrta. People paid for completed houses only to show up for their winter stays and mexican familys had purchased their homes and had clear titles. These are just small examples. Good luck out their you buyers. It can be a free for all south of the border, be careful and good luck!!

backninedan - 5-5-2007 at 05:26 PM

I would like to be a fly on the wall the first time a Canadian loreto ghetto buyer comes down and finds 8 loreto bay workers with bed rolls renting his quarter million dollar, eco friendly, totally self sufficient, etc etc, casa.

flyfishinPam - 5-5-2007 at 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Crusoe
..... If they are so " sustainable" then why haven't they done something to secure and sustain there own warter supply?? Well I can tell you why.....The right amount of cash got shoved in some Mexican officials pocket and they are allowed to outright steal the locals water...... and when its all gone they will be long gone back to England... or wherever.......

this is exactly what's happening here :mad:

those $1350/mo rentals would be for the execs and ingineros not the typical construction workers

oldhippie - 5-11-2007 at 08:04 AM

Some more reading. The first is about desalination, which is required for LB, and how the authors think it would be best implemented there.

http://sherwoodsf.wordpress.com:80/2007/05/10/sherwood-on-me...

This is an interesting article from Baja Life: "Loreto Bay Co.
Sustainable or Greenwashing? " I've saved it just in case it mysteriously disappears from their website. Interesting stuff, not the least of which is that there are additional claims that the construction workers are ultra low paid guys from the mainland, not the locals, and this is a difficult problem for the developers because it is their contractors that are doing the hiring.

http://www.bajalifemag.com/pdf/LoretoBay.pdf

After reading both of these the thought that came to mind is that if the developers are sincere about their plans for sustainability; that is, development that will not only benefit the current generation but also future generations, they've picked probably one of the most difficult places in the world to do it. This because of a grossly inadequate water supply, inadequate power supply, the fragile nature of the ecosystem, and their partner FONATUR's "damn the future, let's make some money now" attitude.

Another interesting thing to do is to watch how companies change their tune on the Internet over time. I haven't done this yet for LB but will some evening. Here's a website that keeps a history of other websites. Was it Mr. Peabody that had a "wayback" machine? Well, here's the digital version.

http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.loretobay.com

Have fun, corporations hate this website. It makes it very hard to hide past mistakes, like press releases where the wise CEO hypes the company (their stock) because of some new innovation that eventually falls flat on its face. I bet, in the future, the Loreto Bay Co. will be damning this website too because it will be proof of either their ignorance or their lies.

Baja_Girl - 5-11-2007 at 08:38 AM

Oldhippie, thank you so much for doing the research and sharing this information...reading about this so-called "sustainability" project makes me want to VOMIT...I know, let's you and I get together over Memorial Day weekend and throw acetone all over the whole project and hope it disappears...

...Loreto is special for many reasons, but it is harsh on people, machinery and buildings and yet it is the very lack of predictability that makes it lovable...once upon a time, a beautiful bird chanted this lullaby to me about Loreto: "everything breaks down here, if the salt air doesn't get it, the dry air will get it, if the dry air doesn't get it, the wind will get it, if the wind doesn't get it, the dust will get it, if the dust doesn't get it, the hurricanes will get it..." and I think I fell asleep...knowing it was all true.

oldhippie - 5-11-2007 at 11:26 AM

You're welcome baja_girl. This development is so dumb and the greenwashing makes me mad. I started my graduate education in Environmental Sciences at Cal State Fullerton in 1977. It was a new program back then. So I've been a "treehugger" for a long time and the statements these guys are making really bother me. I think the building of a golf course at LB is a testament to where these guys are really coming from. Nobody that's concerned about the Loreto ecosystem and the people that live there would build a water hungry golf course that will be used by an elite, rich, very small minority half the year.

If anything, the state of BCS should emulate what California has done with the state park system along the coastline and build a nice retreat for folks who enjoy fishing, RVing, scuba diving, boating and other water sports. Perhaps a low profile hotel and some residences would work too. But this looks like another Cabo Wabo disaster.

jerry - 5-11-2007 at 11:32 AM

sorry hippy but anyone who says that BCS should emulate california shouldnt be allowed to even visit baja if you like cali why you living in TJ ?? my opinion jerry

Marie-Rose - 5-11-2007 at 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie

If anything, the state of BCS should emulate what California has done with the state park system along the coastline and build a nice retreat for folks who enjoy fishing, RVing, scuba diving, boating and other water sports. Perhaps a low profile hotel and some residences would work too. But this looks like another Cabo Wabo disaster.

jerry....think you missed his point
:rolleyes:

Cypress - 5-11-2007 at 12:09 PM

Why would anyone want to buy into a subdivision with water and sewer issues?

Next question. Why would anyone want to live in a housing project? :spingrin:

Baja_Girl - 5-11-2007 at 12:23 PM

but of course, what will ultimately happen is that as water and utilities become over-worked and in higher demand, prices will increase and the people who live in the town will be forced to pay higher prices for less...all the while their beautiful city and quality of life is eroded by "excessive" gringo garbage, waste, traffic - its inevitable that there will be "more", but the LBC is scary.

Acetone may not be the answer, but this is so sickening - "sustainability" - I want to forget that I'm a lady and use some really nasty language - what can we do Old Hippie...? I'm there, Pam is there, other friends of Loreto are there...money? letters? time? protests?

Keep us posted,
nina de baja

Stickers - 5-11-2007 at 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja_Girl
Acetone may not be the answer, but this is so sickening - "sustainability" - I want to forget that I'm a lady and use some really nasty language - what can we do Old Hippie...? I'm there, Pam is there, other friends of Loreto are there...money? letters? time? protests?

Keep us posted,
nina de baja

I don't think that you can do anything at this time. As someone on this list always says "nature bats last". The environment, without help from others will determine the outcome of this ridiculous development.

Don Alley - 5-11-2007 at 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lencho

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
...there are additional claims that the construction workers are ultra low paid guys from the mainland, not the locals, and this is a difficult problem for the developers because it is their contractors that are doing the hiring.

Of course the developers have no influence on the hiring practices of the contractors they're paying... :rolleyes:

In case LB were interested in supporting their community, are there actually enough local laborers available to do the job?

--Larry

OK...

First, when you come and say you are going to build 6000 "homes" in a town with a population of 12,000, you gotta expect to import a few workers. :biggrin:

I had a conversation about Loreto workers yesterday with a Mexican business man who came here from the mainland. And I've had the same conversation before...
Loretanos work for a specific reason. To get another truck, pay of some debt, buy a few things. Then they quit, take some time off. That's the criticism of Loreto's workforce.

And Loretanos have responded to me: "Yeah, well, that's us. That's how we are."

There are plenty of help wanted signs up. And while I'm no friend of Loreto Bay, seems to me they have been much more tolerant of hiring (and rehiring, and rehiring again) local Loretanos than others in town. At least for the cheap jobs.

But mainland Mexican business and management people question the long-term reliability of local workers. The local workers have not exactly endeared themselves to the new jefes in town.

A few locals are going to get rich off this boom. A few are going to do well. Many are going to get flattened as prices rise and they find themselves out-competed in business and labor by mainland and foreign competition.

oldhippie - 5-11-2007 at 04:18 PM

baja girl asked what we can do, here's a suggestion

Sandra Dibble is a staff reporter with the San Diego Union. She specializes in baja issues, mostly about the border area, but maybe she would want to dig into the Loreto Bay Co. We can feed her information and perhaps get her interest.

sandra.dibble@uniontrib.com

This a public email address that she posts on the Union's website so don't be afraid to use it.

All we need to do are things that will make people not want to buy into the project. Then it will dry up and blow away. Spread the word that there is not enough water, it's hotter than hell for 1/2 the year, and it appears that the developers are fast buck artists.

I found this on a yachting website, the writer had sailed into the Loreto area and was telling his story.

"Billed as “Authentic Mexican Seaside Villages” of “stirring beauty,” Loreto Bay’s design promises to honor the local culture and history. Which is why there’s an 18-hole golf course in the works, along with a Tennis Center designed by John McEnroe and the “magnificent” Loreto Bay Beach Club & Spa. Since it’s common knowledge that golf and tennis are time-honored as the great Mexican pastimes – right up there with squash and polo – it’s easy to appreciate the painstaking efforts Loreto Bay Company is taking to complement a centuries-old fishing village."

hehehe

Hook - 5-11-2007 at 04:28 PM

Yeah, nature bats last.

But human nature can come up as a pinch(e) hitter in the middle innings, scores a few runs and be long gone to the bank before the bottom of the ninth. :smug:

It's like the antithesis of musical chairs.............maybe you DON'T want to be around at the end.

Dont you figure that there were investors that lost money in the French company that originally started Puerto Escondido?

I have no hard facts about LB.......just enjoy speculating on human nature.

vandenberg - 5-11-2007 at 04:29 PM

Live in Nopolo and am no admirer of Loreto Bay. But I like to be fair. The golfcourse and the tennis center have been here for a long time. One of Fonatur's brainstorms. LB is just trying to bring them back to playable standards. Fonatur had no idea how to run either one, with deplorable results. No fault of LB.

Paula - 5-11-2007 at 04:49 PM

All we need to do are things that will make people not want to buy into the project. Then it will dry up and blow away. Spread the word that there is not enough water, it's hotter than hell for 1/2 the year, and it appears that the developers are fast buck artists.

But human nature can come up as a pinch(e) hitter in the middle innings, scores a few runs and be long gone to the bank before the bottom of the ninth.

While spreading the word, we can also say that for much of the rest of the year it is quite chilly and very windy in loreto. Showering the dust from your body may be your main vacation pastime. Add to this the fact that the beaches here are mostly rocky, and not conducive to the massage-on-the-beach resort treatment that so many luxury travelers expect.

The sad thing is that when the developers are long-gone, the concrete will still be there for countless years, although in altered form. There will be no quick recovery of the wild coast of Baja.

Baja_Girl - 5-11-2007 at 06:08 PM

My email has been sent...if everyone who reads this posting sends an email - we might just get her attention!!!
thank you,
tu nina de baja

fishbuck - 5-11-2007 at 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja_Girl
My email has been sent...if everyone who reads this posting sends an email - we might just get her attention!!!
thank you,
tu nina de baja

I sent an email. Hope it helps!
Hey Baja Girl! Did you get your truck? I didn't see you at the book signing. How's smiley the dog?

Baja_Girl - 5-11-2007 at 06:38 PM

fish,
check you U2U for more information than you really wanted to know...

Everyone...Please Send An Email...see above...

I love Loreto...
tu nina de baja

fishbuck - 5-11-2007 at 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
baja girl asked what we can do, here's a suggestion

Sandra Dibble is a staff reporter with the San Diego Union. She specializes in baja issues, mostly about the border area, but maybe she would want to dig into the Loreto Bay Co. We can feed her information and perhaps get her interest.

sandra.dibble@uniontrib.com

This a public email address that she posts on the Union's website so don't be afraid to use it.

I emailed Debra and she got right back to me.
Here's an article she wrote on Loreto Bay:

A new day dawns in sleepy Loreto | The San Diego Union-Tribune
Address:http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20051228/news_1n28loreto.html

Baja_Girl - 5-11-2007 at 07:41 PM

again quoting the LBC owners as if they are presenting "real facts" - not marketing bullchit JIBBERISH - she wrote to me, I wrote her back and asked her to appreciate that our concern is not about "Will Little Loreto grow Into a Real Tourist Destination" - our concern is Will LBC destroy little Loreto altogether..."
wonder if she'll get it...obviously, being a journalist does not necessary mean "skeptical researcher" - but I'll keep trying...

Fish, dude, write me - I have a question for you...

fishbuck - 5-11-2007 at 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja_Girl

Fish, dude, write me - I have a question for you...

My U2U won't work right so that's why I haven't answered.
You can email me or wait until I get to the library. Thanks

Fishbuck@webtv.net

aquaholic - 5-12-2007 at 07:07 AM

oldhippie provided an informative link on page 11. It's to a Baja Life article that does a good job examining LB. One of the conclusions I found interesting was that they could build fewer, more expensive units, and, make more money and have less impact on the environment. It also goes into the energy consumption issue. LB estimates usage of 6 - 10 megawatts by the village. They also estimate 20 megawatts from their wind farm, from which they can sell the surplus. On the next page, they address their (planned) desal unit, which will absorb 6 - 9 megawatts. Sounds like a break even plan to me, at best. What will happen if the wind doesn't blow..???

Don Alley - 5-12-2007 at 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by aquaholic
oldhippie provided an informative link on page 11. It's to a Baja Life article that does a good job examining LB. One of the conclusions I found interesting was that they could build fewer, more expensive units, and, make more money and have less impact on the environment. It also goes into the energy consumption issue. LB estimates usage of 6 - 10 megawatts by the village. They also estimate 20 megawatts from their wind farm, from which they can sell the surplus. On the next page, they address their (planned) desal unit, which will absorb 6 - 9 megawatts. Sounds like a break even plan to me, at best. What will happen if the wind doesn't blow..???

Those electric numbers are really irrelevent. What is constantly overlooked is that the resource in greatest shortage here, for the purpose of large developments, is not water or electricity. It is people. Loreto does not have the population to support Loreto Bay. So a larger population will be imported from other Mexican states. In the tens of thousands. The windfarm will only make a dent on the overall increase in demand, wind or no wind. Same with the desal. Government will have to supply more water and more power as a result of this anything-but-sustainable development.

But what the windmill will do is allow selling of "carbon credits," which will help greenwash someone's offsite pollution.

oldhippie - 5-12-2007 at 09:23 AM

oldhippie - 5-12-2007 at 09:25 AM

Don, good observation. This is a great thread, it's helping us all connect the dots, and the line that is being drawn leads to another Cabo San Lucas. We probably all guessed that at the beginning but now enough information has been posted where it's no longer a guess.

It's time to get Greenpeace involved. They have a lot of horsepower and their tactics can get results.

Check this out, it's almost criminal:

http://www.costaloreto.com/index.html

costa_loreto_aerialB.jpg - 30kB

oldhippie - 5-12-2007 at 09:41 AM

Lencho, see my 20 April, 1PM post about their wind power idea.

Wind power is a good idea but the basics about how to use it are still being debated. Of course the wind generators must be placed in an area where there is sufficient wind energy. But, the basic engineering questions of whether it is better to build a big wind farm in a really windy area, or build many smaller wind farms distributed in less windy areas, have yet to be answered. Central installations will require high voltage distribution, distributed installations would simply dump the energy produced into the local distribution system.

I bet the wind farm Loreto Bay is planning never gets built and that the development will be powered by buring oil. Even if it gets built it won't produce enough.

Wind and photovoltaic generators at best augment a fossil or nuclear fuel based system. They can't be turned on and off when power is needed and not needed and when they produce power it must be used or it is lost. There is no way to economically store electrical energy for later use.

bajalou - 5-12-2007 at 09:54 AM

Seems I remember PG&E using surplus electric energy from a nuclear plant to pump water up into a lake, then when more power was needed, then let the water out producing hydro generated electricity. Used water as a storage medium.

oldhippie - 5-12-2007 at 10:36 AM

bajalou

You're suggesting converting wind kinetic energy to electrical energy to potential energy and then back to electrical energy. Each time you convert energy from one form to another a significant amout is used (lost usually as heat due to friction) making the conversion. Plus to do as you suggest would require a hydroelectric plant at the bottom of the waterfall.

But it is a method of storing energy, it's just not economical. The other obvious solution is batteries but that's really expensive. Plus I think batteries require more energy to make than you'll ever get out of them, so you're robbing Peter to pay Paul. In the long run it's a loser.

Don Alley - 5-12-2007 at 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie

Check this out, it's almost criminal:

http://www.costaloreto.com/index.html

They've been going piecemeal for quite some time. Most of the current actual development came from lot sales and individual construction of private homes. I just heard a couple of days ago that the permits for the marina have been granted.

This is on a much, much smaller scale than Loreto Bay, and while I don't like all that Senor Salvat (a local guy) has planned there, I don't think it will have the kind of impact that the much larger, out of town developments like LB, Villas Group, Paraiso, and Golden Beach will have. The whole stretch of waterfront north of Loreto to just short of El Bajo/Doctor's Point was subdivided into lots and sold by the ejido so the days of open space thre are gone anyway. The Costa Loreto development does not appear to have the financial horsepower of the foreign developments, and it's hard to say just how much it will progress beyond private home sales.

But, hey, the flashy web site...where are they going to get all that pretty white sand for their hard rocky beach? :lol:

Don Alley - 5-12-2007 at 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bajalou
Seems I remember PG&E using surplus electric energy from a nuclear plant to pump water up into a lake, then when more power was needed, then let the water out producing hydro generated electricity. Used water as a storage medium.

I've seen such plans, commented on some FERC license applications too.

They are not net generators of power. They work like this: Use surplus power in off-peak hours (when power can be purchased cheaper) to pump water uphill to a reservoir. Then, during peak hours, generate power from that reservoir and sell it at peak power rates.

So they do allow for higher peak power consumption, although overall there is a net loss. Most imporantly, there is a net gain in profits.

Could workin Baja, except they'd have to use salt water. :lol:

oldhippie - 5-12-2007 at 10:51 AM

lencho, it's on page 9

vulture looking for heat stroked loreto bay golfers.

oldhippie - 5-14-2007 at 08:36 AM

lb_golfers.jpg - 35kB

and the construction is for the birds

flyfishinPam - 5-15-2007 at 03:38 PM

I'm no inginero but is there enough reinforcement there? :?:

Baja_Girl - 5-15-2007 at 09:54 PM

Quote:

I'm no inginero but is there enough reinforcement there?

let's hope not...maybe a good breeze will come along and blow it all away...we can hope...

comitan - 5-16-2007 at 07:15 AM

They are building them as they did 200 years ago, so they will look natural, if they put the columns in like they do now to meet earthquake standards they would not look natural.

oldhippie - 5-16-2007 at 09:12 AM

is there a mortar shortage in loreto? I mean really, look at the one close-up of the bricks. I thought cement was sort of important stuff.

jimgrms - 5-16-2007 at 09:26 AM

Cost more to use enough mortar. it is 3rd rate work, It amazes me that folks with the brins to make enough money to buy into these pipe dreams do,, I think its gonna be like some of the projects in san felipe that sat vacant for years for one reason or another

wilderone - 5-16-2007 at 11:01 AM

According to Scott Montell, Chief Legal Counsel and Exec. VP of LB Co., who spent 4 days working with them in the field, "They use a type of slurry on top of the blocks, but not in between them." Here's his full report (interesting, long).

http://www.loretobayfoundation.org/index.php?tg=fileman&...

flyfishinPam - 5-16-2007 at 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
is there a mortar shortage in loreto? I mean really, look at the one close-up of the bricks. I thought cement was sort of important stuff.

I have more detailed close ups, three in a series, should I post them?

flyfishinPam - 5-16-2007 at 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilderone
According to Scott Montell, Chief Legal Counsel and Exec. VP of LB Co., who spent 4 days working with them in the field, "They use a type of slurry on top of the blocks, but not in between them." Here's his full report (interesting, long).

http://www.loretobayfoundation.org/index.php?tg=fileman&...

I'm getting an "access denied" error message for that page.

Baja_Girl - 5-16-2007 at 12:00 PM

The Day with the Workers is here - in its entirety - THIS IS S0 UPSETTING - I THOUGHT THAT LABOR CAMPS WERE A THING OF THE PAST - REMEMBER - THIS IS THE LBC "ATTORNEY" WHO THOUGHT IT WOULD BE PERSONALLY BENEFICIAL TO FIND OUT WHAT ITS LIKE TO WORK FOR LBC AS A LABORER...I HATE THESE PEOPLE...

Day 1

On my first day, Jeff picks me up and drives me to the clay pit. He introduces me to Carlos, the manager of the block production operation. Carlos is a “visionary” in his own right. He already had been trying to build adobe homes in Loreto long before Loreto Bay arrived. He previously had brought a small adobe-making machine to Loreto, and had tried to convince the locals to build houses out of earth blocks. However, the Loretanos viewed earth blocks as a substandard building material and his venture likely would have failed, but for the serendipitous arrival of Loreto Bay and Jim Hallock, who put his skills to use.

Carlos asks me why I want to work stacking blocks in the heat. I respond with something about the gulf separating the people who work on “concepts” in Scottsdale and the people who actually do the physical work building the houses that we are marketing and selling. I talk a little about wanting to experience the life of a worker, if only for a few days. It’s obvious that he’s not quite buying it. When I’m finished with my explanation, he says “O.k….the new guys always clean the bathrooms!” It’s going to be a long day.

At the clay pit, there are four machines that produce the blocks, and this morning none of the machines are working. There is a real sense of urgency and panic in the air since the block facility, even running on double shifts, is just barely able to keep pace with the current demand of the contractors. The clay pit currently is running with essentially no excess inventory. Each machine normally produces about 3,000 blocks per shift, and they generally only run two machines at a time, since they don’t think it’s a good idea to run them at full capacity each day. With two machines running two shifts per day, the clay pit is able to produce about 12,000 blocks per day. The contractors, on the other hand, are using on average about 10,000 blocks per day, and the masons are slowly but surely becoming more proficient at laying the blocks. Jeff tells me that the fastest mason crew (consisting of 2 masons and 2 assistants) is able to lay almost 1,000 blocks per day. Probably not coincidentally, that particular crew is also paid based upon the number of blocks they lay.

Carlos has become a jack-of-all-trades in maintaining and repairing these machines. He tells me that, for the most part, it is too expensive and time-consuming to get replacement parts from El Paso, Texas, the manufacturer’s headquarters. Therefore, he has many of the parts made in nearby Constitution, and has learned to fix, and even improve upon some of the parts. He shows me some of the innovations he has implemented. For example, he uses stronger steel for some of the moving parts, he has developed a device on the conveyor belts to ensure conformity in block height, and he has created a new mold that makes grooves on the sides of the blocks to allow for better bonding of the plaster.

This morning Carlos is hunched over a vice, furiously welding and sautering a new connection for one of the machines that is not working. The block facility is clearly testing the limits of these machines. The clay pit is probably the first true production facility in the world in which these machines are used at such a constant pace. In the past, these machines have been used to make blocks for a single house, or small development, and would run for only a portion of a month, in single shifts. By contrast, Loreto Bay has recently made its 1,000,000th block using these machines. It is easy to see why they are so difficult to maintain: dirt and machinery generally do not mix, and these machines are used to make a product out of dirt. Moreover, the entire area is enshrouded in a dust cloud created from the constant digging, sifting and mixing. And despite constant cleaning, by the end of each shift the machines are filthy and covered in dirt and dust.

By noon, Carlos has fixed one of the machines, and it is up and running. Three of us then stand in front of a conveyor belt of metal rollers as the earth blocks are compressed and exit the machine. My job is to sweep the excess dirt off the top and sides of the blocks with a wide paintbrush and push them down the rollers where the other workers will grab and stack them onto pallets. Each pallet holds five layers of 18 blocks each. Once a pallet is completed, one of the workers wraps it in plastic saran wrap, and then it is left outside to cure. Normally, the drying process takes about 30 days. However, because of the pressure to produce enough blocks so that the entire construction process does not have to slow down, Jeff has decided to add cement, rather than lime, as a bonding agent, which reduces the curing time by half. It is obvious that he is not happy with the decision, primarily because the cement makes the blocks less sustainable. But the reality is unavoidable, another day or two of breakdowns, and there will not be enough blocks to keep pace with the contractors.

None of us wear weight belts to help support our backs when lifting the blocks, and within an hour I can start to feel the pressure. We break for lunch at 2:00 p.m., and the workers invite me to sit with them in a shaded spot. One of the older workers talks to me and points to one of the younger guys. He speaks so rapidly and animated that I’m not quite able to follow much of what he says, but I do understand that he has told me the younger man could show me “many curious things.” The other workers crack up. Oh well…it’s not quite singing together hand-in-hand with the workers, but it’s probably the closest I’ll get on this trip.

Carlos stops over to chat with me later in the day. He tells me that of all the workers at the facility, only one is a Loretano. He says that the locals just don’t like this type of work. He explains that he doesn’t believe they are “lazy,” but they have a different view, culturally, regarding work. For a long time Loreto had been a fishing village and, until it recently became illegal, Loretanos could make 1,000 pesos (about $USD100) per day, harvesting clams. The approximately $30 to $40 (USD) the workers make a day at the block facility, for much harder work, simply does not seem attractive.

By 5:00 p.m. we break for the day. Given the machine failures, we probably have produced only about 1,500 blocks for the shift. I will learn later from Jeff that the following Friday, for the first time ever, the facility had to turn away contractors that needed blocks.

Day 2

I slept at the Hotel since arrangements were not yet made for me to stay at the workers’ camp, so I am well-rested and ready to go when Jeff picks me up at 8:00 am to start working with Eiffel’s construction crew.

Our first stop is Eiffel’s construction trailer to meet with one of the supervisors, Antonio Garcia. It is obvious that everyone in Eiffel’s office likes and respects Jeff. For one, he is completely fluent in Spanish. In addition, before speaking with Antonio, he takes the time to greet and hug each of the secretaries, most of whom he knows by name. I have the impression that he is the type of person that will remember the names of the new secretaries he has met that day.

Jeff explains to Antonio why I am there. Antonio shakes his head, and says that he started out as a laborer and would never want to go back to it if he could help it. But he then adds that he is happy to help in any way he can.

I’m taken across the street and introduced to my “crew:” Francisco or “Frankie” (19 years old), Ishmael (20) and Guillermo, or “Memo” (20). All of them are from Chiapas, look slightly Indian, and have been on the job site for a few months. Our job is to transport concrete in wheelbarrows from one side of the site to the houses on the other side where we then shovel it into large buckets. Each bucket has a metal rod running horizontally through the top, which acts as a handle, allowing us to swing the full bucket between our legs, and use the momentum to heft it up onto our shoulders. Once we have it balanced, we walk the full bucket to a ladder propped up against the house wall (and sometimes all the way up to the second floor), where we climb a few rungs and hand the bucket to a “maestro” sitting on the top of the house wall. The maestro pours the concrete into the wooden forms in the middle and at the edges of the adobe walls, which forms the concrete columns in the walls. Each full bucket weights about 40 – 50 pounds.

Francisco, Ishmael and Memo are very welcoming and show me, through a combination of Spanish and hand gestures, what I am supposed to do. I get my first wheelbarrow full of concrete, and it’s clear that many of the workers are watching me out of the corner of their eyes to see how I do. As a 6’ 4” gringo, I’m not exactly “undercover” on the site. I can only hope that the full wheelbarrow doesn’t tip over as I go up and down the various gullies, across the 8 inch boards over some ditches, and finally wheel it into the house.

The work is back breaking and, and we are generally in the direct sun, although we try and stand in the shade of the walls as much as possible. Fortunately, there are huge 500 gallon containers of potable water throughout the job site, and we can make stops to rehydrate when we refill our wheelbarrows with concrete. I find it hard to even imagine doing this same work in the summer months.

The Mexican workers are well-practiced and nimble in balancing the full bucket on their shoulders while they quickly scramble up the first few rungs of the ladder to hand the bucket to the maestro. The gringo, on the other hand, can do it, but with noticeably less coordination and skill. When the maestro realizes I’m a full head and a half taller than the rest of his crew, he asks me to just walk to the side of the ladder and lift the bucket a little, which brings it to the same level as when the workers partially climb the ladder.

We continue doing this until 2:00 p.m. when everyone breaks for lunch. Eiffel provides three meals a day to the workers for free (the owner of the food operation will later complain to me that Eiffel only pays him USD$6.60 per worker per day, and he cannot make a profit at that rate). Lunch is served in a huge tent which seats all 100 workers. The food is surprisingly good (probably in part because I am surprisingly hungry) and consists of chicken in a tomato sauce, two big servings of macaroni salad, tortillas and juice.

At lunch, we have a little more time to talk now that we are not working. At this point, I’ve met about 15 workers since (a) I am interacting with a lot of the other workers, including the masons, and the crew that mixes and pours the concrete and (b) I stick out like a sore thumb.

I feel like an outsider for sure, but not at all in a threatened way. The workers who speak a little English come over to introduce themselves and practice a few words. And the crew I am with, while they are the low men on the totem pole, also appear to be the “camp clowns.” Since a lot of the other workers are from Chiapas as well (they all call themselves “Vargas” since apparently that is a common last name there), Francisco and Memo spend a lot of time in lot hurling insults at the other Vargas, causing much laughter at the surrounding tables.

Today most of their questions have to do with how much things cost in the US: How much is a flight to Arizona? How much are my boots? How much is a car in the US? How much do the houses we are making sell for? They are astounded when I tell them the prices of our houses, since it would take 100% of their salary, for almost 80 years, for them to buy an average house in Loreto Bay.

Sometimes the interaction is like a game of charades. A worker will come by and want to tell me something. I won’t understand the words, so he will start to sign. Crossed fingers – “Nope, don’t get it.” Holding hands six inches apart each grasping something – “Sorry, still nothing.” The word “policia” – “OK, now I get it. You were in prison in the US for marijuana possession, next contestant.”

I notice that time seems to move at a different pace here. In Scottsdale, it often feels like I just arrived at the office when it is already time for lunch. Here, when I glance at my watch thinking it must be 5:00 p.m., the end of our workday, it’s barely 2:30. When 5:00 p.m. finally arrives, we take our wheelbarrows, buckets and shovels to a large cement water pit, and carefully wash them down, scrapping the concrete off with boards and polishing them with rags. The workers treat the equipment with a great deal of respect, carefully taking the time to make sure they are entirely clean, before ending the shift.

At 5:30 p.m. we’re herded onto the bus and head back to the workers camp, which is located at the beginning of the road to San Javier. The camp is completely fenced in, and you have to pass the camp supervisor on your way in. He is expecting me and shows me to my room, introduces me to my roommates, and shows me where to place my duffle bag. Then I’m told the rules: no drugs or alcohol are permitted in the camp, dinner is at 6:30 pm, lights are out at 10:30 p.m. Monday through Thursday, and the bus leaves the camp for work at 6:20 a.m., with or without stragglers. He also tells me the that all new workers are required to see the camp doctor. The doctor has a small tent near the entrance and keeps regular hours to help the workers with their various aches and ailments. I am administered a quick physical, and cleared to live in the camp.

The camp consists of two long dormitory style buildings, with six rooms on each side. The rooms are about 15’ x 25’ and hold anywhere from 6 – 22 people (most of the beds are bunk beds, so there can be up to 11 beds per room). There are also about 15 tents at the far side of the camp, each containing 4 bunk beds. The tents have no electricity in them, but they are only temporary housing until Eiffel completes an additional camp up the road. In total, this particular camp houses approximately 350 workers.

In the middle of each of the dormitory buildings are the bathrooms, each of which has 8 stalls and 8 showers (or roughly one bathroom per 22 workers). In between the dormitory buildings is a large gravel field on which the workers often play soccer at night, and a large mess hall with two satellite televisions, the kitchen, and a small store. In the back of one of the buildings are ten outdoor sinks for washing clothes. The fence is strewn with drying clothes. The camp is reasonably clean (there is a full-time live in Janitor with two assistants), and with the full time guard, it seems reasonably safe.

I’m completely covered in dirt and cement dust, so I go to shower. I realize that neither blankets nor towels are provided or sold at the camp (oops), so I use a t-shirt as my towel, and will later have to use my pants and shirts as a blanket. When I get in the shower I strip down to my birthday suit and sandals, and happily start lathering off the day’s dust and grime. When I turn around, to my embarrassment, I notice that all of the other workers in the adjoining stalls are wearing their bathing suits. “Oops….nice to meet you folks.”

Dinner is served cafeteria style. There is good-natured shouting, but everyone seems pretty subdued and friendly after work. I’m invited to eat at one of the tables by a worker I met on the site, and, to me, the food tastes excellent again.

I’m exhausted and head to bed immediately after dinner. By 9:00 p.m. my roommates have turned out the lights, and everyone is going to sleep. With six people in the room, it soon becomes a symphony of snores, and although I am extremely tired, it takes me awhile to fall asleep. It gets pretty cold at night and I wake up every time my “blanket” falls off.

Day 3

It seems like I just closed my eyes when I hear my roommates getting up. Instead of eating breakfast, I use the extra 20 minutes to get some more sleep. It’s still pitch dark when I walk out of my room, and Francisco, Ishmael and Memo are waiting for me outside. They are all still wearing the same clothes from yesterday (and will be wearing them the next day as well), so I imagine it is their only pair.

We get to the site about a _ hour before we have to start work, so my crew takes me to a house which has some of the Styrofoam pads which will be used in the ceilings. We arrange them into make shift beds, and try to steal a little more sleep.

The site supervisor whistles loudly at 7:00 a.m., and we all shuffle out to get our wheelbarrows, buckets, and shovels and start again. Today I spend more time looking around since I have fallen into the work routine. There are specialized crews for all of the different skill sets. One crew is working with the steel, cutting long rods to the right size and tying four rods together with wire and steel pieces. These will become the rebar columns in the walls into which we will eventually pour our concrete. Another crew consists of masons, who carefully lay the earth block, using string and levels to ensure that the rows are even. They use a type of slurry on top of the blocks, but not in between them, and carefully pound them into place with a rubber mallet. When they need only part of a block, they use a hammer to chisel it into the right size (the cement additive will make the process of breaking the blocks much harder).

There are also masons standing on scaffolding within the houses. They have trays filled with a mixture of cement, lime and sand. They dip their trowels into the mixture, and in one smooth, practiced, motion, whip it upward so that it sticks to the Styrofoam and chicken wire which has been affixed to the ceiling. Finally, when an area is coated, they smooth it off with a 2 x 4 board. To me it seems somewhat inefficient and wasteful, since excess mortar flies all over the house, but the workers are skilled and fast.

Today my body is starting to feel the effects of the physical labor, and I am a bit sore all over. Three days a week of squash hardly prepares you for the rigor and pace of this type of work, and the unrelenting sun quickly saps your strength. Many of the columns we are pouring today are on the second floor. The steps are not in yet, so with the bucket of concrete balanced on our shoulders, we take a slight running start, find footholds in the rebar sticking out of the sloped staircase, and jog to the top. The work is even more exhausting than the day before. Every once in a while we take a break, but not very often. I know I will never again look at construction workers taking a break, and make a wise-crack about poor work ethic.

By the end of the second day, I am really exhausted. I’m hungry, but more tired than hungry, and doze off through dinner. At around 7:30 p.m., I pull a chair in front of my room and sit outside. The camp manager, Omar, a large, strapping, Mexican from nearby Constitution, is chatting to a group of the workers nearby. He seems to fill the role of a caring father to many of the younger workers, and he treats them all with respect and comradery.

Omar comes over to me and asks me if I want to attend a futbol game, which Eiffel has arranged, between two camp teams at the nearby stadium in town. I’m tired, but it sounds interesting, so I accept. Before I leave, Roberto, the owner of Eiffel, and Antonio Mayo, its vice-president of development, walk by. They know I am in the camp, but do a double take when they see me, since I am sporting a five-day beard growth, am in workers clothing, and am surrounded by other workers. We chat for awhile, and while they are both supportive of my staying in the camp, I can tell they are also fishing for an ulterior motive. I am sensitive to the fact that having the company lawyer at the camp may be a bit unsettling. I assure them that I am there more for my own personal experience and insights, rather than on a formal inspection, and I let them know I have found Eiffel’s camp to be progressive in many respects. They still ask if I would send them my personal observations afterwards, and I agree to do so.

When I get to the stadium, I know a few of the players (including a member of my crew, and one of my roommates). Knowing how hard we worked all day, I am surprised to see that the players are able to race up and down the field at night. They are in amazing shape.

While on the sidelines, I talk to Omar about drugs. The smell of marijuana is prevalent on the job site and in front of the camp (although never in the camp), and I have already been offered marijuana and cocaine several times. Omar says that he doesn’t feel that the marijuana use is a problem for the workers. However, he believes that crystal meth has been making its way into the camp. He comments that while low level use of crystal meth can increase alertness and block hunger, increased usage destroys lives. Its side effects, include violence, hallucination, depression and psychoses. Omar estimates that as many as 10% of the camp residents are using the drug.

He tells me that he provides periodic counseling at the camp for drug and alcohol problems, and later shows me one of the books they distribute on the subject. However, he says that his advice goes in one ear and out the other. He notes that he has observed that drug use is often strongly correlated to the region that the workers are from. The workers from around Mexico City and Chiapas, rarely do drugs, whereas the workers from Juarez and other border towns, frequently are heavy users.

Day 4

I’m definitely feeling the effects of the work today, and skip breakfast again to catch some more sleep. I now have blisters on my hands, a large bruise on my shoulder from where the bucket rests. Moreover, even though I have showered, I still am coated in a fine film of cement. I vow on the way to work, to take it easy today, and let Francisco, Ishmael and Memo pick up the slack.

Despite my vow, early in the morning one of the supervisors grabs my crew and tells us that the site is having a “visitor,” so we have to clean up the camp. This involves shoveling large mounds of dirt in the front to level out the ground, using pick-axes to break up the concrete which has spilled in the ground and on the road and carting it off, and general trash pick-up. As the day progresses, I start to increasingly dislike these “visitors.”

The only break I get is at mid-day when a supervisor comes by and wants to chat and practice his English. Many of the supervisors have made it a point to introduce themselves and discuss the project with me. This is the first time I have taken a break to look around that morning, and I notice that the rest of my crew has somehow slipped away. I stay at the shoveling as long as I can, but I am starting to feel increasingly sick. I haven’t eaten since lunch the previous day, but the thought of food makes me feel nauseous. I don’t think it’s anything I ate, but simply my body’s rebellion from enduring more physical work than it’s used to.

I drift off to get some water and discover that my “crew” has placed themselves on trash-picking duty. I can see that the trick is to clean up places in the shade, and even after the shady area is clean, to start picking up every tiny piece of trash still within that shady area. Soon we’re practically dusting off the rocks. I am learning…

Francisco, Ishmael and Memo want to learn English, so they begin pointing to every thing in the house and on their bodies. They tell me the Spanish name of an object, and I tell them the English name. When we run out of objects, I ask them why they came to Loreto. They tell me that the pay is much better. In Chiapas they would probably be making about $US400 per month, but here they are making about $600. Moreover, after six months or so, there is a possibility that they could become “maestros,” and make even more. Even though their salary is relatively low, they are still able to save enough money to send some back to their families, since most of their basic needs are met at the camp. They also tell me that they don’t go out to drink and they don’t do drugs, mainly because they thought drugs were bad, but also because they don’t want to take money away from their families. I later read that Chiapas is one of the poorest states in Mexico, with an estimated 40% of the population suffering from malnutrition.

I look at my watch, figuring it has to be lunchtime, and it is only 11:45 a.m. The competitive side of me wants to finish the day, but I am feeling increasingly sick. So, I admit defeat, make my “choice,” and head back to camp.

When I tell the camp supervisor I’m not feeling well, he brings over some medicine and has the kitchen prepare a special meal. I talk to the camp janitor over lunch. He previously lived in Kansas driving a bus for ten years, until he was deported as an illegal alien. His children are US citizens and remained in the US. He says he gets by on $200/week, but has had trouble opening a bank account since the camp does not provide the permanent address which is necessary to open an account.

I head into town for a haircut, and afterwards, decide to buy some gifts for Francisco, Memo and Ishmael. I wrestle with the idea for awhile, because they are proud, and I don’t want to seem as if I’m providing charity or showing off. However, I decide that I will give the gifts to Omar and ask him to hand them out after I leave. I buy shoes for Memo (he has been wearing open-toed sandals all week), sunglasses for Francisco, and a Walkman that I had packed (but had never used in over a year) to Ishmael.

When I return to the camp, the workers are back. I sit in front of my room and talk to one of my neighbors. He is a young plumber from Juarez, and contrary to Omar’s stereotype, he doesn’t drink or do drugs. He has a wife and a four-year-old son back home. He is articulate and obviously bright. He has just arrived and thinks the camp conditions are fine, but doesn’t like most of the other workers. An older worker comes over to us and begins complaining about his shoulder. I go in my room and bring out a bottle of Tylenol which I give to him, however he struggles with opening the safety cap and hands it back to me. When I show them how to align the arrows, my neighbor laughs and calls it a “Mexican-proof” bottle.

Another worker who I have seen around the camp drifts over and starts to make small talk. After about five minutes, he asks me if he can “borrow” 20 pesos. I hesitate. On the one hand, this particular worker seems as if he is on drugs and strikes me as a “hustler,” and I know the only reason he came over is to get money. I don’t want to be seen as the Bank of America. On the other hand, its only USD$2. When my neighbor isn’t looking, I slip it to him, and he soon leaves.

By that night I’ve gotten to know quite a few of the workers. Frankie, Ishmael and Memo wait for me for dinner, and a number of the workers come over to say hi or practice a few words of English. After dinner, I ask the three of them if they want to join me outside the camp for a glass of whisky that I have in my bag. We all head across the dirt road, and the group of three soon turns into fifteen. It’s a moonless night, full of millions of stars. The conversation is mellow, and we talk about families and politics (they are all pro-Calderon). I also learn that Eiffel has initiated some progressive ideas at the camp that could probably be emulated at other camps. For example, Eiffel periodically provides buses to transport the workers back to their home States for free so that they can see their families. All of the workers from Chiapas will be going home for Christmas. Also, with Eiffel’s help, two workers in the camp have recently obtained their GED equivalent.

The workers are not heavy drinkers, and we are all pretty tired, so at around 9:30 p.m. we say our goodbyes, shake hands, and return to camp. Memo and Francisco walk me to my room. They ask me if I will remember the experience, and if I will visit them next time I come to Loreto. I tell them truthfully, yes.

Observations/Recommendations

Clay Pit

Maintaining/Increasing Block Production. The plant is currently running at zero excess inventory. Establishing excess inventory, particularly with AV about to commence, is critical. Jeff is doing an excellent job with the tools he has, but I believe he could use some higher-level help/support to analyze ways in which to increase the block production level. It is unclear whether more/different equipment, more back-up parts, full-time mechanic, or a combination of the foregoing are necessary. Short reports on projected block use/and projected block should be circulated weekly to senior management in order to keep on top of production and head-off any shortages.

Performance Based Compensation. Carlos should probably be compensated, at least partially, based upon production. Contractors should be encouraged to compensate block masons, at least partially, based upon number of blocks layed.

Camp Conditions

Committee of Camp Supervisors; Encourage Best Practices in all Camps. I think Eiffel has provided some progressive ideas for “best practices” that could be emulated in other camps. For example, the free buses home, satellite television, organizing soccer games at the stadium in town, and providing capable, on-site medical care. It would be a good idea to organize a committee of camp managers (Omar would seem to be a great person to head this up), with perhaps a representative from LBC (Walter Cunningham?), whose focus would be to recommend and implement different ways to improve the workers quality of life.

Improving Minimum Standards. I think we could begin to get more detailed on the minimum standards that we contractually require of our other contractors, down to the number of bathrooms/janitors/guards per person, so that each of the camp standards are brought to roughly the same minimum level.

Suggestions for Improving Living Conditions. An obvious long-term strategy is to develop affordable housing so that the workers can bring their families and settle in Loreto. Roberto, the owner of Eiffel, mentioned to me that that this is something he is interested in, but it is along way off. In the meantime, I think there are many small things that can be done to improve the workers lives while they are in the camps. One of the main hardships of the camp (aside from the physical demands of the labor), is the boredom of living with 350 other men, with little to do for entertainment. I think a small library with games might be helpful, periodic music or other entertainment could be provided, a few bicycles to get back and forth to town. Many workers have old shoes and only a few pairs of cloths, therefore, an onsite good-will store, with affordable used clothing would also probably be well received by the workers. Perhaps there is also a way to work with the local bank to make it easier for workers to open a savings account, or better yet, to organize a credit union for all the workers.

Specialized Workers Fund. I spoke to Mark Spalding about implementing a specialized fund for the workers, which could help to implement the ideas of the workers committee, mentioned above. Interested LBC employees could also be given the opportunity to donate a small amount directly from each paycheck ($30 –$50?) to go towards this fund and to support these types of initiatives. Dave S. said this type of deduction would be easy to implement (and tax deductible).

Providing Educational Opportunities. Education is also an area where meaningful changes could be implemented. Opportunities to obtain GED equivalent degrees could be expanded, and courses in English as a second language could be provided. I do not think most of the workers would be able to transition from construction to hospitality as the resort town grows and develops, however, I do think there are some that could, and LBC could help to create transition opportunities.

Drugs. Finally, I don’t know what the solution is, but resources should be put towards trying to eradicate the problem of harder drugs. Perhaps through counseling and/or random testing, with termination strictly enforced. More than anything, those types of drugs present the opportunity for ruined lives and the possibility of spreading to the town and affecting it in a negative way.

flyfishinPam - 5-16-2007 at 12:27 PM

Wow you found it. I couldn't get there directly but figured it out here are the links to that writeup that baja girl just posted:

first go here:

http://www.loretobayfoundation.org/

then go here:
http://www.loretobayfoundation.org/index.php?tg=oml&file...
(link to the "loreto worker's fund" on the main page left hand margin at the center)

then click on "A week with the workers" near the bottom center just above "DONATE NOW"

flyfishinPam - 5-16-2007 at 12:37 PM

This is not on their Spanish version of this website. Wonder how the Loretanos would like to hear to the above comments on them.

A GIFT FROM GOD

bancoduo - 5-16-2007 at 01:33 PM

http://www.loretobay.com/cms/page4186.cfm

Can anyone tell me how that CO2 emissions thing works?

oldhippie - 5-16-2007 at 03:11 PM

"One of the main hardships of the camp (aside from the physical demands of the labor), is the boredom of living with 350 other men, with little to do for entertainment. I think a small library with games might be helpful, periodic music or other entertainment could be provided, a few bicycles to get back and forth to town."

hahahaha - a library with games - I have beer coming out of my nose I'm laughing so hard. Yep a little Dostoevsky and a game of chess, that will work! HAHAHAHA

"organize a credit union for all the workers" oh my God, this guy doesn't know chit. Go ahead, lend these guys some money. HOHOHOHO

"Opportunities to obtain GED equivalent degrees could be expanded, and courses in English as a second language could be provided"

Yessir, let's go school after working as a slave all day long. It will only take a few years to learn to read and then I can study chemistry and physics.

And why the hell would these guys want to learn English? I would bet a significant number are indiginous people from the mainland that can barely speak Spanish.

And especially after the past 6 years of fine American foreign diplomacy, the wall that's being constructed along the border, the militarization of the border, and those vigilanty minute men maniacs, most Spanish speaking Mexican adults absolutely despise Americans and could care less about learning English. I watch Mexican news on TV every evening as part of my efforts to learn Spanish. All of these things are top news stories and the Mexicans hate it. My wife and her two well educated adult sons and my neighbors, all of whom have lived their entire lives in Mexico, think Americans are out of their minds. - Sorry for the rant.

Please folks, I'm not slamming the hard working guys manning the wheel barrows, shovels, and trowels. Maybe some would appreciate what Americans think are the finer things in life. - some, ok 2 or 3.

But what 9 out of 10 men want after work, anywhere in the world, are party girls, cold beer, and some money to send home to the family.

The turkey that wrote this is just another example of gringo elitists that are in fact stupid as dirt and an embarassment to this gringo.

Jesus Christ I'm upset again. And I didn't even consider the Arbeit Macht Frei apsect to this yet. This is complete lunacy.

Baja_Girl - 5-16-2007 at 03:29 PM

I HATE THE buttcrack WHO THOUGHT IT WAS SO WONDERFUL TO SPEND A WEEK WITH THESE POOR PEOPLE AND COMMENT ON THEIR "DRUG PROBLEM" - WHAT APPALLING ARROGANCE...PAM, LET'S INVITE HIM TO A DAY OF FISHING WITH TWO BAJA GIRLS, YOU AND ME WILL HOLD THE GUY DOWN UNDER WATER WHILE OLDHIPPIE REPEATEDLY KICKS THAT buttcrack WHERE IT HURTS THE MOST...YES, I AM UPSET THAT SUCH A CLUELESS SOB

oldhippie - 5-16-2007 at 03:47 PM

"Can anyone tell me how that CO2 emissions thing works? "

It's complicated to this simple guy, but supposedly limits in CO2 emissions have been set by the Kyoto treaty. To exceed limits, you pay money. The idea is to make it expensive to pollute. Therefore the US didn't sign the agreement.

"The company offset more than 200 tons of CO2 emissions, 165 tons of which was for employee air travel, through contributions to the Climate Trust."

The executives dumped 200 tons of CO2 in the atmosphere flying around. It's still there, don't misunderstand. The word offset is highly misleading. It is not a good thing.

So to make to make the more simple minded of the bunch, the mid level marketing folks, feel good, and to enable the complete greenwash press release full of lies that bancoduo (2 banks?) linked to, the top level guys contributed money to the "Climate Fund" Who knows, they probably own that. Maybe it's the "We're going to retire in the best Climate Fund". Certainly not in Loreto.

The company (Econergy) that is doing nothing but claiming to be building the windmill project which has been demonstrated by fact and logic to be too small to do much good is based in England, has financial ties to Loreto Bay, and is playing the carbon credit game. Which so far has been a losing game. In April 2006 CO2 permits were at 30 euros per ton CO2, last month they were 1.2 euros a ton. They bought a million tons of permits sometime during the crash. Losers!

See:
http://www.fool.co.uk/news/comment/2006/c060503c.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Emissions_Tradin...

oldhippie - 5-16-2007 at 03:54 PM

baja girl, I hear well fed gringos make good chum. excellent way to dispose of .... things

amir - 5-16-2007 at 04:52 PM

hmmm, let's see: it will take 100% of a worker's income, for 80 years, to buy a house there... well, that's cool! But wait, this equation is not complete... "employees could also be given the opportunity to donate a small amount directly from each paycheck" to fund their own welfare programs... hey, they'd be happy to do that! And wait, there's more! We'll teach them not to eat (after all, we can't really make a profit by feeding them); we can teach them not to send a penny home (all their relatives will be dead anyway after 80 years in the camps)... We can enslave each ignorant Indian for 80 years of hard labor and with their "voluntary donations" from their paychecks we don't really need to build more bathrooms for them... heck! that would be a waste... Yes, I have it! I see it now: We could use that extra money to buy more brick-making machine, and run them 3 shifts a day...

OH PLEASE! SOMEBODY STOP ME! THIS S.O.B. LAWYER MAKES ME SO FURIOUS... I CAN HARDLY STAND IT!

Cypress - 5-16-2007 at 04:56 PM

amir.

oldhippie - 5-16-2007 at 05:26 PM

Amir,

It is infuriating, more so than any other project so far in baja. I think most, if not all, the folks that read this website love baja for what it is. It is so unique and wonderful. These folks are not only ruining a special place, they are ruining a special place within a special place. To make matters worse, they are doing so under the guise of something good, environmentalism. And, they have tons of money and the collaboration of experts in financing, the law, and the Mexican Government. And they have figured out a way, via the international aspect of all of this, to avoid the oversight of any single nation and its regulatory mechanisms.

For example, I think they can say anything they want in their press releases without fear of it coming back to bite them. Whose going to bite back? The owners who I think will eventually regret their decision. How? Sue somebody? Who? Is Loreto Bay even licensed to do business anywhere? Who you going to take to court? Where would you do that?

This is a land grab to make lots of money and run, being executed by some very cagey folks.

I look at it as a challenge. The Internet is a wonderful thing. It allows them to lie and it allows us to tell the truth. Stay tuned.

Paula - 5-16-2007 at 05:44 PM

This is not in defense of Loreto Bay. I don't like anything about the place. But it is interesting that an LB attorney spent a few days on the job with the workers, and I assume that what he said about them and Eiffel may be true. Eiffel is not Loreto Bay, it is a contractor working for LB. I hope they are providing decently for those unfortunate workers who have to leave their homes to provide for their families. The problems arise for the workers when LB breaks with a contractor and the workers go unpaid and stranded here. This has happened before.

I assumed that the opportunity to donate to a fund for construction workers was intended for LB executives and employees, not the workers employed by Eiffel. If it ever happens, I wonder if anyone will ante up.

Edited for clarity

[Edited on 5-17-2007 by Paula]

Roberto - 5-16-2007 at 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jimgrms
Cost more to use enough mortar. it is 3rd rate work, ...

I'm curious to know what your credentials are to make a statement like this. Care to elaborate?

I got all excited,

Sharksbaja - 5-16-2007 at 06:59 PM

I was hoping for a non-biased report... :mad:

oldhippie - 5-16-2007 at 07:12 PM

Paula, you're correct, there's not much a contracting agency can do with an unfit contractor besides tell them to stop work if they are in violation of the contract. Not good for either party.

The library the lawyer suggested needs a history of Cesar Chavez. Nothing like a labor strike to get managment's attention. The people in Loreto need to educate these workers about the power they have if they stand together. No project manager wants to change horses in mid stream, especially when building a house of cards on a foundation of lies.

oldhippie - 5-16-2007 at 07:34 PM

pam, email me your photos

wilderone - 5-17-2007 at 09:09 AM

The worker camps are another example of what LB promises (talk) and the truth. In Dec. 2004 they stated: "In many ways, the greatest achievement in housing, is the agreement with our contractors to pay a generous "living" wage for workers. Because of this, we know that those who work at building Loreto Bay will be able to afford decent housing in the community."
LB promised to build 2,000-2,500 affordable housing units. How many have they built? If the workers rented the empty units at the "Village" (gag me), it would begin to acquire the Mexican authenticity that they think they're creating. 5 workers per unit could afford to live at LB. Why should they not have the same rental options as other LB employees who are involved with the project? If anything, the workers deserve first priority for the rental opportunity.

Don Alley - 5-17-2007 at 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by grover
"...Discover authentic Baja...5-star luxury that honors Baja Mexico’s nature and history..."

Hmmm...There is a street/walkway in Loreto Bay called Calle Zapanta. Yes, Zapanta. Could that be an old photo of Emiliano Zapanta, Authentic Mexican Hero? :biggrin:

[Edited on 5-17-2007 by Don Alley]

Cypress - 5-17-2007 at 11:21 AM

This Loreto Bay thing is looking more and more like a high-dollar trailer park.

VIVA AL ZAPANTA

bancoduo - 5-17-2007 at 11:33 AM

http://www.loretobaybeachclub.com/cms/page1112.cfm

Crusoe - 5-17-2007 at 06:01 PM

Old Hippie........Just who is this man??... a certain Mr. Steve Games-CEO of Prudential California Reality....... claiming that "Loreto Bay" is the best real estate deal in Mexico today. This sounds about as bogus as it gets....... maybe he is just another snake oil majician. ++C++

oldhippie - 5-18-2007 at 06:29 AM

When you go to their website and click the mexico button in the left nav you get this reassuring message:

"You Are Leaving PrudentialCal.com
By clicking Continue , you will be leaving the Prudential California Realty site. The websites you are being directed to may offer a different privacy policy and a lower level of security than available on PrudentialCal.com. Prudential California Realty is not responsible for and does not endorse, guarantee or monitor the content, availability, viewpoints, products or services that are offered or expressed on other sites.

You are requesting information on property in Mexico."

I like that last sentence. It should have been preceded with:

WARNING YOU FOOL!

http://www.prudentialcal.com/Content/Content.aspx?CategoryID...

Mr. Games and his wife Sandy are La Jolla elitists. The following page takes a while to load, it's not coded correctly.

http://www.sandiego-mls.com/Prudential-California-Realty.htm

I bet Sandy would not be caught dead in Loreto. At least not until the new shopping center is completed.

This guy is just another 6 percenter who probably is in "partnership" with LB. A paid hypster.

Crusoe - 5-18-2007 at 07:04 AM

Old Hippie......Thanks for the help.....I was not having any success diging into this company. I can see they are shuffeling around alot of info. and making claims that are not relevent or true. He is just another insider puppet with his greedy little hand out looking for a free ride, exactly like a Mexican politician, and could care less about the workers or the environment or the historic significance and the people of Loreto. Too bad.

Osprey - 5-18-2007 at 07:46 AM

Maybe we're being too hasty in our decisions about the labor report. Do they need a library? English and Spanish? Money management seminars maybe -- investment advisors? How about some R & R after all that hard labor. Pilates classes or hookers? Mota or latte? Mariachis or Muzac? Right now they need lockers, blankets, towels, new clothes and more privacy. There were labor strikes that slowed down many of the pyramids in Egypt for lack of sanitary facilities. I hope the contractors remember that these hardworking lads aren't walking to work from their happy homes -- they are dispossesed of everything they ever knew -- a long way from home and loved one. They don't need the services of socialogists, they need a little help from somebody in the LB company who care about the Mexican people -- their report says they care.

wilderone - 5-18-2007 at 09:01 AM

They need a rec center; a pool; a patio with a view; some place where they don't have to drive a car - close enough so they could walk to work. Hey, I know just the place - how about the Villages of Loreto Bay? Someone should go over to the camps and tell them about the rental opportunity.

backninedan - 5-18-2007 at 12:55 PM

Oldhippie

I sent an email to Mr. Games and found out both he and his partner are Loreto ghetto owners !!! Why am I not surprised. I deleted the answering email without thinking, i should have posted it here. The basic message was that Loreto Bay was a wonderful thing for loreto and with time and millions of dollars, fishing, the environment and the quality of life will all be improved by this WONDERFUL development. Sigh

oldhippie - 5-19-2007 at 08:32 AM

Poor Kyla. Somebody should clue her in that landscaping is a well known trade in Mexico. And the local landscapers from Santa Rosalia to La Paz are probably very aware what plants do well in that climate. In fact I think I know - cactus.

Freaking marooons building a golf course in a desert. Especially when what water there is isn't enough for what's there now. What a waste.

oldhippie - 5-19-2007 at 09:54 AM

how much water does a golf course require?

UC Riverside Study - golf course water use = 615 acre feet per year in Tuscon

http://ucrturf.ucr.edu/topics/trends_in_golf_course_water_us...

1 acre foot = 325,851 gallons

http://www.western-water.com/Acre-Foot_formula.htm

therefore 615 * 325,851 = 200,398,365 gallons

so 200 million gallons a year in Tucson

draw your own conclusions

astro turf and silk plants?

jerry - 5-19-2007 at 11:49 AM

guess all the golf courses in phenix, tucon, yuma should all be abandoned ?? that water was going to mexico before??
but if they were abandon non of these citys could exist because there watered from the effluent from the sewer plants aireation is part of the system there is no way that this amout of effluent could be relesed into the rivers system or disposed of

i expect that the LB course will be watered by effluent too
golf course are not to just play golf on anymore

Old Hippie

Sharksbaja - 5-19-2007 at 11:52 AM

Bless you.

Sharksbaja - 5-19-2007 at 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jerry
golf course are not to just play golf on anymore

That is one of the most rediculous arguments in favor of building desert coast greens I've ever seen. :lol:

Say, anyone for a game of croquet? Lawn bowling?

I think I understand Jerry. You are implying that golf courses are built to mediate effluents.

I would suggest they are built to deal with affluence. First.

backninedan - 5-19-2007 at 03:18 PM

Sharks, wanna join our lawn dart league??? Loreto Ghetto will make a fine spot to play.

oldhippie - 5-19-2007 at 04:10 PM

Jerry,

Let's see you're going to pump the effluent to the gulf course using electricity generated by wind mills on the other side of the peninsula after the stinky stuff is mixed with water coming from the desalination plant.

Presented by Rube Goldberg - The Pillages at Loreto Bay

oldhippie - 5-19-2007 at 04:17 PM

Also Jerry, the mighty Colorado waters many if not most golf courses in the American southwest desert. Does the Colorado River have a river mouth anymore, or is all used up before it leaves the continent?

There ain't no water in Loreto.

djh - 5-19-2007 at 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sharksbaja

That is one of the most rediculous arguments in favor of building desert coast greens I've ever seen. :lol:

I have an old friend, David Brancaccio (host of NOW on public TV) .... I met David when he was host of NPR's "Marketplace" syndicated radio program, and he was on a sabbatical writing his first book "Squandering Aimlessly"... anyway David interviewed me in Seattle (some fun pages about our meeting and discoveries), and we became friends.... oh yes, back to my point....

David coined a great phrase "Affluenza" a disease that impacts those "burdoned" with too much money.

This discussion about Golf Cour$e$ in the desert for those affluent people contributing to and partaking in lavish consumption (come hell or LOW water) ~ like little Loreto, hyped in LBC's slick literature, being robbed of its water ~ siphoned off via that recurring mix of money and politics ~ to supply an "authentic Mexican village" .... and it all just sounds like Affluenza to me.... or would that be effluenza?

djh

[Edited on 5-20-2007 by djh]

[Edited on 5-20-2007 by djh]

Fore.....

Sharksbaja - 5-20-2007 at 01:14 AM

I believe it's both. TIME TO SHORTEN THE FAIRWAYS!

Really you guys, does it seem odd to you for folks to haul clubs around Baja? Get a grip. Look at Hawaiis' coastline, don't we/you/they wanna be just like that??

Idea! :light:

Ask a Maui, Kona or Kauai local what and how they feel about all those (foriegn owned) greens that line so many shores. Many locations have ample supplies of water but that does not make them a good thing.
They will tell you why. It has to do with culture and subsistence and a way of life. One generally based and lived in or near the sea. When this is stolen or bought or whatever, then mis-developed it robs just that much more culture away from the original inhabitants. I doubt many golfers there are of Hawaiian origin. It's pretty much the same in Baja. Take away their coastline, take away a culture? You be the judge.

jerry - 5-20-2007 at 12:21 PM

sharks that be the case you me and every gringo in mexico shout leave and while we are at it we best give our busness that are on the coast (oregon Coast included back to the native people
it isnt gona happen and baja is gona get developed and yes there will be golf courses
what make you think that your fun is any more honerable then someone elses fun perhaps there should be a law prohibiting gringos from building houses close to rivers and back washes in mexico as in muelege??
then theres the boat that the gringos bring down and fish with they should be prohibited too
oh gringos shouldnt fish at all it hurts the locals catch
the local should be left alone to fish and eat there catch not to progress
im not even a golfer and would prefer that LB didnt exist but i think the holyer then thou attatude people. should be looking at them selves when pointing fingers
the i got mine screw you people speak with a forked tounges

Cypress - 5-20-2007 at 12:30 PM

jerry! It's only 12:30 down your way, but it's 5:00 towards the east somewhere. :?:

Phil S - 5-20-2007 at 12:37 PM

Jerry :lol:

I think that you are about to be :fire:

jerry - 5-20-2007 at 12:44 PM

not mad its just the facts Phil just the facts

vandenberg - 5-20-2007 at 02:09 PM

Still comes back to the fact " MONEY TALKS "

and it's still the 'ROOT OF ALL EVIL " :lol:

LB

tehag - 5-20-2007 at 02:15 PM

Money doesn't talk, it screams.

B Dylan

By the way, the LB golf course has been in operation for about 14 years and is irrigated entirely with treated effluent.

No, I don't work for them. Just a fact, that's all.

bajalou - 5-20-2007 at 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vandenberg
and it's still the 'ROOT OF ALL EVIL " :lol:

the origin of the phrase is a little different.

It is a common saying that “money is the root of all evil.” According to the Random House Dictionary of Proverbs and Sayings, the phrase first appeared in English circa 1000 A.D. The saying originated in the New Testament. “For the love of money is the root of all evil.” Timothy, 6:10.

The original places the blame on the "the love of money", not the money itself.

bancoduo - 5-20-2007 at 02:48 PM

Quote:

By the way, the LB golf course has been in operation for about 14 years and is irrigated entirely with treated effluent.

I thought LB was only 4 years old :?:

aquaholic - 5-20-2007 at 02:55 PM

...the golf course has been there since before LB's inception...

Sharksbaja - 5-20-2007 at 03:08 PM

I always end up in this strange discussion about golf courses and the justification for them. I see the issue as location, location, location, period. I just flat out think they are not suited for most coastline locations for a number of reasons. I'd be just as adament about parking lots in the same locations, or Wal-Marts or one half dozen other things.
---

That's quite the anology there Jerry.
First off, our house was built by a Mexican not a gringo. Does it give them first shot at developing or destoying any domestic by-way. Of course it does, or did. Today the floodgates are open with developers lined up at the door.
Have we not discussed the problems in Baja with utilities and infrastructure and the ability the keep pace and provide the necessary water and habitats. Free reign is not always a good thing for whoever owns it or develops it. The pace and tempo should be restricted by the ability to insure those new developments provide access and habitat suitable for indiginous displaced animals and provide the necessary infrastucture for people there.

I certainly think there is a world of difference between catching a few fish off the beach and building an irrigated swath of turf along the coastline. You may see similarities but I certainly don't. How can you stretch the point so far??
There are other "facts" besides what you provide that address them from an impact stance. From the standpoint of losing valuable useable public land, projects, closures and degradation of seashores is widespead. The more important areas should certainly be examined before grading or digging. There could be far reaching implications. Like TONS of people.

I am not talking about fun for humans anyway, Iam talking about permanent distruction of a habitat or area that was historically part of human culture and subsistance and habitat.
I suppose you could call golf a part of culture and I have no prob with it as a sport. It's the location that irks me. Of course if you abide with the same credo Skeet has then ALL of planet earth will recycle itself to new again. New? No, altered. Maybe that's what I mean, altered.
I guess to me a lot of it has to do with the amount of alteration and how much it will benefit the human race and other earth inhabitants.. Same with estuaries. Do you think it's ok to fill em in or dig em out for a marina or golf course?
How many will benefit? No, not people, those dang animals.
:saint:

jerry - 5-20-2007 at 04:27 PM

well sharks then dont you think it prudent that you tear your restrant down on the waterfront in newport and let it go back to nature?? and give up the parking too and the pavement and tear out the marinas too
if you really believe what your saying i suggest you be the first example
and
then ill believe to

if you buy a home on a coastal property in baja you are supporting the distruction of the same type of property you want other to leave alone
you cant have it both ways

ncampion - 5-20-2007 at 04:36 PM

Just got back form a great week in Loreto and I figured out the water problem. Every bathroom faucet, shower head, toilet and hose bib in Loreto leaks water, 24/7. I don't think this is only in Loreto, in general, Mexico has not figured out plumbing as yet. As someone who lived on a sailboat for several years (before watermakers) I had to carry every gallon we used in 5 gal. jerry jugs. It really bothers me to see leaking faucets. No excuse for this any more. Just my 2 cents. :fire:

I disagree Jerry

Sharksbaja - 5-20-2007 at 06:50 PM

I think you can have it both ways. That is my entire point, very good!

You say the inevitable is inevitable. I say we can control our destiny. I say we can learn how to not overwhelm or deplete our resources. I say let the public decide collectively. A few rich executives can make decisions that will affect locals and tourists alike for eternity.
That's the problem you see. Just a black and white picture. .I don't see it that simple and your solution for me proving what, that I'm not a hypocrit is to tear down the restaurant that was a home for 70 years. Where did I say 'NO CONSTRUCTION or DESTRUCTION WITHIN 100 FT OF THE OCEAN"? :lol:

I think intelligent use should be mandatory.

btw, Jerry you should know, we are not located right on the water. Exactly how far back do I think we should be from the water? Let me go measure...

Don Alley - 5-20-2007 at 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ncampion
Just got back form a great week in Loreto and I figured out the water problem. Every bathroom faucet, shower head, toilet and hose bib in Loreto leaks water, 24/7. I don't think this is only in Loreto, in general, Mexico has not figured out plumbing as yet. As someone who lived on a sailboat for several years (before watermakers) I had to carry every gallon we used in 5 gal. jerry jugs. It really bothers me to see leaking faucets. No excuse for this any more. Just my 2 cents. :fire:

Loreto folks are very much aware of this; if you were here recently you may have seen major street work, largely to replace old pipes. And 5000 water meters have been ordered.

But the water dept folks are still a bit screwy. They cannot, by law, cut off your water, but they have BIG late payment fees, so maybe half the people in town don't pay their bill. That leaves them short of money for infrastructure, and also there is little incentive to fix leaks if you never pay the bill. A couple of days ago we went in to pay for the rest of the year in advance; they won't allow that anymore, go figure, turning down money in advance.

Still, that's only part of the problem. Leaks or no leaks, a population increase from 12,000 to 50,000-100,000 will result in more consumption.

jerry - 5-20-2007 at 07:23 PM

sharks yes i know your across the street from the water and id say a lot closer to the water then most golf courses
so your place was a home for 70 years its still close to the waterfront and your paturns are staying at the marinas and motels and i could say they are destroying the place with polution ?? would that be fare??
so your saying for you its ok but for someone else its not
rich executives arnt going to be living in loreto bay so what about the people who want to live there shouldnt they have a choice??
i dont believe that rich exacatives and developers are at fault thier doing busness just like you are and the people who patronize these places are people too
some like golf some some like living in chicken coops and some like upscale restrants who are we to say they shouldnt have the choices

Sharksbaja - 5-20-2007 at 07:40 PM

Jerry, whatever, you really skew my point well. Bravo! Your generalizations don't work because you are talking about stuff done. I am talking about things to come. Things that exclude you, me and the general public.
I think golf courses on the coast suck. You have your idea of growth , I have mine. Mine excludes wasted lands for the elite few. Call it what you want. You say I contribute to coastal distruction by owning a place near the water, I say nay.

Jerry, rich executives don't NEED another coastal golf course, do they. What to play on or to make more money?

Crusoe - 5-20-2007 at 07:42 PM

Jerry.....You are making some extreemly unintelligent parralels and asumptions here....... Sharks has one small place........Maybe if L.B.C. were building chicken coops no one would be squacking about anything at all.

WTF?

Dave - 5-20-2007 at 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Alley
But the water dept folks are still a bit screwy. They cannot, by law, cut off your water, but they have BIG late payment fees, so maybe half the people in town don't pay their bill. That leaves them short of money for infrastructure, and also there is little incentive to fix leaks if you never pay the bill.

It would seem that it's the townsfolk who are screwy and irresponsible. Waste water and don't pay because they can?

Apparently, there's gluttony and thievery enough for everyone.

Lorentanos and Loreto Bay deserve each other.

Paula - 5-20-2007 at 09:00 PM

Jerry, take a look back at the history of Nopolo. Our Loreto neighbor has lived in this town all of his 50+ years. He tells us that years ago all of Loreto packed up and went to the beach on weekends. there were just 2 beautiful sand beaches to choose from. One was Nopolo, and the other Puerto Escondido. They had the best sand, the best fishing, and the best views. Loretanos loved those places! Our neighbor's family favored Puerto Escondido, and he has missed very few Saturdays fishing there in his life. . A number of years ago, Fonatur took ownership of these beaches, and also of Primer Agua in the mountains, where a local family had ranched for generations. Primer Agua was developed as an "oasis" for swimming and picnicking. Nice, but they haven't maintained it and it has been closed since more or less 2002-- sits there as a ruin. Maybe they'll fix it someday. That family has accepted their loss and moved on. For years there was a nice beach for locals just north of the former El Camino Real Hotel. And the people could fish from the pier and "the wall" at Puerto Escondido, though the beach was decimated to build the harbor. But times are changing, and it seems that with the entrance of API and Singlar at Escondido, and Loreto Bay in Nopolo, bigger things are in the works, and there is no room on the beaches for the families who have always enjoyed them so. If there is any benefit for these people to compensate their loss, it will be in low wage jobs and an increased cost of living, leaving them economically worse off than before, and facing increased cost of living. Hmmmm.... I guess this can't really be called a benefit.

Now, Jerry, I know from reading your posts that you are a man who cares for the everyday people. You stood up for the gill netters, saying they had every right to feed their families. So if the investors who are moving into Mexico are entitled to their gains here, and the new wealthy tourist who wants golf and massage therapy deserve to have all that their money can buy, what are the families who have always cared for this land entitled to? I sure hope they can have an occasional glass of clean water, and that they can live happily with so little as they always have, going to a beautiful beach and grilling up some fresh caught fish after a week of work. Something tells me you would like to see that too. But it can't all go on in one little place. There just aren't the resources to support it all. So who comes first in your book?

Don Alley - 5-20-2007 at 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave

Quote:

So is there anywhere where a low flat rate for water wouldn't lead to waste? What do you want these people here to do? Loreto Bay and this boom have just started, Fonatur just gave these developers Loreto's water. Loreto is responding. They've torn up the main streets for new water lines. They've ordered meters to begin metering water. They've got a publicity campaign to try to convince more people to pay their bills. Seems that Loretanos are moving pretty fast for any municipality, on either side of the border. And I suspect that as long as the law prohibits shutting off water, failure to pay bills is not limited to Loreto.

oldhippie - 5-20-2007 at 11:03 PM

Yes there has been a golf course there for the many years that Fonatur's development was considered a failed development with no tourists and sat there empty, a closed airport nearby, I assume because no tickets could be sold because nobody wanted to go there.

Things are different now tho. Why, because there is a huge marketing machine called the Internet that makes it easy to get your pitch in front of millions of readers who will jump at any opportunity to be part of anyplace someone calls paradise.

This is from the LB website: "Amenities will include two 18-hole championship golf courses".

http://www.loretobay.com/cms/page1203.cfm

So now we're over 400 million gallons of water per year.

And the point that it is effluent that is used to keep golf courses green is an argument to fool the folks worried about pollution and has no bearing on this discussion. My point is that there is not sufficient water.

Effluent was "pure" water before people peeed, crapped, showered, and dumped paint, cleansers, and insecticides in it. It just doesn't come from nowhere!

So 400 million gallons of water, minus the urine, paint thinner, and undrunk beer is needed to get 400 million gallons of stinky, fecus contaminated, chemicalized polluted goop, oops I mean effluent.

I've been on some golf courses that I thought were absolutely beautiful. Large trees, woods surrounding the fairways, lush green grass, beautiful flowers along the walkways songbirds in the trees. At Loreto bay you're going to need to be concerned about rattlesnakes when you retrieve the ball from the cup and vultures swooping down and carrying the kids away.

It's just a real dumb place to build golf courses (plural). It's hot, windy, there's no shade, and one more time

THERE'S NO WATER.

oldhippie - 5-21-2007 at 12:23 AM

Ok folks, I'm going to stop contributing to this thread and am taking another course of action.

I recommend to those that want their points of view known to first set up at least two google news alerts: 1. "Loreto Bay", 2. Econergy. When the alerts send you links to articles that you have a disagreement with, send an email to the author and/or news organization expressing your point of view. Back up your statements with links to information produced by reliable sources, such as the Harvard study.

The various themes are:
1. Greenwashing for profit
2. Destruction of the local water supply
3. If you believe like I do that the wind turbine idea is a COMPLETE greenwash, go after that.
4. Desalination systems are a last resort and the briney wasteproduct is a big problem for Loreto Bay. It can't be discharged into the Sea because of its fragile nature in the area.
5. Human rights and the current state of the imported workers.
6. The likely detrimental effects of LB on the fragile National Underwater Park right off the coast.

Write to news organizations and trade/technical organizations. The renewable energy organizations would be very interested in a project purported to provide all the power for a development. Ask the what they think of LBs statements and plans.

Human rights organizations will be very interested in the work camps and their condition. Especially camps being built by an American company in a foreign country.

Ocean environmentalists will be interested in plans for a desalination plant with discharge into the Sea of Cortez in addition to the common sewage outfalls.

Hydrologists will be interested in the depletion of the aquifers and subsequent salt water intrusion.

Greenwashing is currently a hot topic. Citibank is bragging about their new move to green investments and Loreto Bay is among their first, granted it's a paltry sum for Citibank, but I'm sure they wouldn't want one of their first investments to turn out to be a associated to yet another Mexican real estate debacle.

The financing of all of this is the sexy part. And everybody likes good sex stories.

Phil S - 5-21-2007 at 07:28 PM

Old hippie. Your beginning to sound like an old record. How about something for a change that would be positive about what is going on in Baja. Thank you for your attention to this matter. I'm sure there is something down there that is positive you could reflect on.

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