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No Amnesty!

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amir - 5-31-2007 at 05:51 PM

Pargo,

I'm surprised, too, about some of the responses. I don't write so people can agree with me, or so that they can love me and support me, although many have said so and that is very satisfying. Some of these aggressive and annoying people are very lovey-dubby in other threads; some I can tell are very good friends with each other, and maybe they test newcommers. Many Nomads, I'm finding out, have a very warped sense of humor. Maybe some object to outsiders butting into their threads, but this is a public forum after all. The BajaNomad Community is very democratic in its membership, that's good! Maybe because this is a politcal thread, people are more combative here, and dissenters, being a minority, are often attacked. But I do enjoy the controversies and passions I arouse, it is just very frustrating when I am misunderstood or misquoted or paraphrased wrongly. I think it also depends on the time of day these people are writing and whether they've taken their medications yet.

Now back to amnesty... They found an excuse to kill that Amnesty Bill (posted by MrBillM above), which means (to me) that it was all just another f***ing political move to make us think that they want to solve the problem. They don't! Illegal aliens provide a cheap labor force even if it causes problems for everyone else. The bottom line is PROFIT for the guys that make the profit. Crime is profitable, too, for law enforcement. We spend more on law enforcement that what the crooks cause. Who's really robbing us? Actually, we get robbed twice. There is no solution to this problem. The flood gates have been opened and we're all going to pay the piper. This forum is a good place to vent our anger and frustration. The rest is just words...

--Amir

oldhippie - 6-1-2007 at 07:21 AM

Amir,

Your comment about posters taking their meds was probably directed at me. You're right, I suffer greatly from multiple personality disorder and obviously the meds don't work well.

In fact, I might as well fess up. I own this website and there's only two people that post to it. Me and you. It's hard for me to keep logging in as all these other people and to keep the names and personalities matched up, but I have a spreadsheet that helps.

Could be, you know. :lol:

oldhippie - 6-1-2007 at 07:33 AM

BTW Amir, thanks for filling out the loan application available by clicking on one of my banner ads at the top of this page. You social security and bank account numbers will help me buy my meds. Should I up the dosage?

Ya never know, do ya?

oldhippie

Baja Bernie - 6-1-2007 at 08:00 AM

Your noms de combat are becoming so confusing that I have lost my way and your last post just went zinging, like an arrow, past my ear. So I went back and re-read two posts that went from enjoying the humor to finding it very warped…………..Oh! well back to amnesty……….enough of that….this forum is a good place to vent our anger and frustrations. Not!

Makes me think on this thing you (I—whoever) wrote yesterday. “Otra lado is all noise and many are lonely. Baja is pleasantly quiet and few are lonely”

I would like to suggest that you manipulate your articulations as I am sure that this will allow you to reduce your need/desires for your meds. :biggrin:

Now! That is a bit of some kind of humor.........I think.

[Edited on 6-1-2007 by Baja Bernie]

oldhippie - 6-1-2007 at 08:42 AM

Bernie,

The virtual world is a wild place. I enjoy taking on different personalities and it is so easy to do in cyberspace. I can be serious, analytical, humorous, evil, and mildly offensive, sober and drunk, loving and hateful depending upon my mood. Is that not allowed? That's how I am in the real world.

The loan application bit came from the fact that an advertiser on this website has one online that is not encrypted. Meaning the data goes across the Internet to who knows where in plain text that any competent technician who has access, like those working at the hosting company can read and record. My work requires that I be cognizant of Internet security so I look for stuff like that.

I recently found this message board and the development of baja cought my attention, therefore my activity has been high. I'll burn out soon and take on a completely different personality on some other message board that catches my attention.

Man, it's only been 30 minutes since I took my meds. They kick in fast, don't they?

amir - 6-1-2007 at 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie

Should I up the dosage?

Are you asking about the "legal" or the "illegal" meds?

This distinction between "legal" and "illegal" gave me a new insight into the subject matter of this thread: Would it make a difference if these 12,000,000 illegal immigrants had been processed legally, before or after their entering the USA? Methinks not!

How many natives (or otherwise legal, naturalized, etc) Americans cheat on their taxes? How many cheat on Welfare? On Social Security disability claims? How many exaggerate their insurance claims? How many lie in resumes? How many corporations register offshore to avoid being taxed? All these have just as detrimental and draining effect on our economy. So as far as taxes and income goes, we want others to follow the law, yet we ourselves are the examples of rampant corruption. Innocent until proven guilty gives you freedom but it also allows you to hide.

Even if there was a quota for immigration and everyone attained "legal" status in one way or another, I think the problem would still be one of ASSIMILATION. As long as there is "us" and "them" there are going to be problems. Maybe assimilation should be the subject of a new forum: "Have you assimilated your Mexican yet?" Or shoud it be: "Can Mexicans assimilate gringo culture once they've moved to the USA?"

--Amir

amir - 6-1-2007 at 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja Bernie

... two posts that went from enjoying the humor to finding it very warped

Warped humor can be very enjoyable! :bounce:

Hey, oldhippie, have you been using my nome de plume again? I'm very confused!! What were those meds again that we're supposed to be taking? We are very confused! ("We" here meaning the royal "We", not the crazy "us")

Whatever happened to Amnesty? Oh yeah, it was killed by some cynics in Congress. Goody. Now we'll be able to debate our anger and frustrations again some time in the future, perhaps it will come up again during the next election cycle in 2012... I hope I get some new ideas by then.

--Oldamirbaja "Pass the Buck" Berniehippiefish (We DO feel better now, the royal we, not the... )

toneart - 6-1-2007 at 10:14 AM

Be careful while driving in this forum. While it is legal to drive in it under the influence of the great U.S. pharmaceutical industry, or stand with the vigilantes at the border with guns pointed at Mexicans, you'd better not be smoking a joint in here.

Some of your postings are way too intelligent and creative. :cool:

2012 seems like it could be a good year!

Baja Bernie - 6-1-2007 at 10:14 AM

Oh! Have you heard about the gang of chiropractors in L.A. who believe that it is a primary function of theirs to articulate the claims of lying, cheating, legal Americans who wish to take advantage of their insurance company's, That may or may not be true but it does have a ring of truth to it.

I guess we are just basically bad people who wish to keep all of the thieven' in the family.......at least it is 'our collective taxes' that we (us) be stealin'.

Oldhippie......don't be barkin' up that tree....I don't believe that chiropractors are allowed to prescribe medications........I have always wondered why.

edit.....Sorry! Guess I am just as off topic as most other are on this one.

[Edited on 6-1-2007 by Baja Bernie]

jim janet - 6-1-2007 at 10:30 AM

Speaking of assimilation of non american cultures,how is it going.I still see large comunities of blacks,asians and indians who have not joined the American culture.

Then fix it yourself

Dave - 6-1-2007 at 10:38 AM

Bush today,"The system is broken."

Draw up a proclamation on your terms and sign it.

The President has the power to grant amnesty, conditional or otherwise.

amir - 6-1-2007 at 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
Be careful while driving in this forum. While it is legal to drive in it under the influence of the great U.S. pharmaceutical industry, or stand with the vigilantes at the border with guns pointed at Mexicans, you'd better not be smoking a joint in here.

Amnesty to all drivers!
Amnesty to the pharmaceutical industry!
Amnesty to vigilantes!
Amnesty to guns!
Amnesty to potheads!
Amnesty and Liberty to ALL!! :lol:

(...just really trying to stay in the subject of this thread...) :bounce:

amir - 6-1-2007 at 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja Bernie

Oh! Have you heard about the gang of chiropractors in L.A. who believe that it is a primary function of theirs to articulate the claims of lying, cheating, legal Americans who wish to take advantage of their insurance company's, That may or may not be true but it does have a ring of truth to it.

Sad, but it is true. There are some very rotten apples in the barrel of the Chiropractic profession. Corruption is rampant and it gives a bad name to all of us. Many times I thought of exposing some scams, but I value my life. Also I need my license to work, so I thought I would wait until after I retire to write the expose. You'll be glad to know, Bernie, that I am NOT one of them rotten apples.

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja Bernie

I guess we are just basically bad people who wish to keep all of the thieven' in the family.......at least it is 'our collective taxes' that we (us) be stealin'.

No, "we" are not all bad people. But yes, you got the gist of this point.

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja Bernie

... don't be barkin' up that tree....I don't believe that chiropractors are allowed to prescribe medications........I have always wondered why.

I'll tell you WHY: Because the Chiropractic Law that legalized the profession says that "Chiropractic is a DISTINCT and SEPARATE healing art... without the use of surgery or drugs... bla bla bla..." Bernie, I'll adjust your articulations any time!

Amensty to Chiropractors! (just to stay in the subject of this thread...)

--Amir

amir - 6-1-2007 at 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jim janet
Speaking of assimilation of non american cultures,how is it going.I still see large comunities of blacks,asians and indians who have not joined the American culture.

Amnesty to Blacks!
Amensty to Asians!
Amnesty to Indians!
Amnesty to Jim Janet for not staying within the subject of this thread! :bounce:

amir - 6-1-2007 at 11:30 AM

Baja Bernie

`Normal` Correspondent
Posts: 2134
Registered: 8-31-2003

Hey Bernie, I thought that if I keep posting that soon I can be like you. It looks so cool - all those stars... I only have one. :no:

Amnesty to Baja Bernie!

DENNIS - 6-1-2007 at 11:30 AM

Jeezo..........You guys are talking like you've just been released from ten years in solitary confinement. Lots to say. Like Thomas Merton on a weekend bender.

amir - 6-1-2007 at 11:35 AM

I have nothing to say in this post - just wanted to reach "100 Posts"!!!

Amnesty to Amir!

Amnesty to off-topic posts!

Amnesty to Amnesty! (just to keep in the subject of this thread...)

amir

Baja Bernie - 6-1-2007 at 12:22 PM

Congradulations! But it is not the number of posts nor the number of stars but what is said that is important.

Back to ammesty or no ammesty.

Lee - 6-1-2007 at 01:55 PM

I don't see hope for any of this. I don't have hope in the government straightening it out. I'm even open -- OK, no ammesty for 12 million aliens. What else? Does that mean something? Let's say, ammesty was granted, and, aliens are asked to come in to get their Ammesty Certificate. Do you really think that would happen? I mean, OK, a few million go in.

What would be the effect if a law was passed that there was no ammesty? Everything would remain the same? Maybe less aliens would cross because they knew ammesty was not going to happen for them? Maybe there would be a ''serious'' aliens roundup? The US military would be called in and outposts would be set up and aliens shot? Or just deported to try it again? Better border security doesn't address ammesty.

Does anyone know what the government is attempting to do? What are the possibilities? (It's not guest worker programs.)

I know of at least 2 people who think there should be an open border. Don't know why that sounds enlightened but it does -- but I'm not sure it is. What's that mean? Anyone really in favor of open borders? How would it work? What would it look like?

:cool:

A Step-by-Step Approach

MrBillM - 6-1-2007 at 02:30 PM

There is no hope to solve the problem as addressed today. The current proposal(s) are filled with loopholes and ambiguity. The so-called triggers are meaningless because it is only required that the President (whoever that might be at the time) CERTIFY that the goals have been met. There is NO definitive criteria. The problem with any Amnesty proposal is that we've already tried it once (under Reagan) when the estimated numbers were around Three Million. Now we have a NEW group of Twelve Million (or so).

Additionally, one of the most negative aspects of the current proposal is the Family Reunification which swells that Twelve Million figure dramatically with NON-PRODUCTIVE relatives. The Conservatives are being Criticized as Inhuman by the Liberals because they want to limit eligibility to Spouses and Children ONLY. The Left wants to expand that eligibility to include more distant family members including Grandparents, Uncles/Aunts, others. It is estimated (and unchallenged) that the most liberal proposal would average seven additional family members for each Amnesty Visa granted. That's 84 Million (mostly unproductive) Immigrants.

The problem is huge and the politics are rabid, but a solution MUST be found which is of the greatest OVERALL benefit to the United States and its Legal Residents.

Opponents of said solution stress the impossibility of rounding up and deporting 12 Million people. NOBODY but a small number of Extremists is suggesting that. The best answer lies in a measured approach.

1. Do the best possible job of securing the Border considering the physical and economic limitations.

2. Begin to weed out Illegal workers starting with the most egregious examples. The same Social Security Number being used by 10 or more people might be a good start. Legally DEPORT those arrested so that the penalty for re-entry would be understood to be more severe than simply being thrown out again.

3. At the same time, In order to maintain a suitable and affordable workforce, develop a Guest Worker Visa system which fairly addresses all parties and ensures that EVERYONE (within realistic limits) working in the United States is paying their obligated share. The Actual Costs of said Visas, including a realistic Background Check, should be born by either the applicant or the employers requesting the Visas. It has been claimed that said costs would unfairly impact those applying, but a payment system could be developed. It's done with Private employment agencies all of the time and the "Immigrants" seem to find a way to pay even greater amounts to the "Coyotes".

From the internet:

amir - 6-1-2007 at 04:43 PM

History Lesson...

2,000 years ago, Moses said, "Pick up your shovel, pack your ass, mount your camel and I shall lead you to the Promised Land."

200-plus years ago, George Washington said, "Get off your ass, use your shovel, clear the land, grow plants for camels and it will be the Promised Land."

Last year, the Congress of the United States said, "Amigos, throw away your shovel, sit on your ass, light your Camels, we're giving you the Promised Land."

:rolleyes:

CaboRon - 6-2-2007 at 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by amir
I have nothing to say in this post - just wanted to reach "100 Posts"!!!

Amnesty to Amir!

Amnesty to off-topic posts!

Amnesty to Amnesty! (just to keep in the subject of this thread...)

Amnesty to users of Medical Marijuana :bounce:

Open Borders

amir - 6-2-2007 at 05:50 PM

One problem I see with open borders is that there would then be a mass migration. Just the ideal of a better life would get people packing. Who would stay in economically depressed areas or overcrowded cities if there were no borders to stop them?

And would this open border be just between Mexico and the United States, or all of the Americas? If the latter, that would be a huge mess! So many families would flood north that it would cause bottlenecks on every road for years. How or who would stem the flow?

Open borders is a romantic idea that would work if we were an enlightened humanity. I think Europe tried to test this idea with the Euro, a currency that knows no borders, and they are having all kinds of problems with it because of the different standards of living in each country. People from one country don't want to accept Euros from another, even though that was supposed to be the idea.

Current geo-political borders are not where they used to be. Frontiers and borders change from time to time for different reasons; look at old maps of any continent on earth with country borders, and you'll see how it changes. Borders will change in the future again. For borders to disappear altogether, human consciousness has to evolve first. Under the current world condition I just don't think it's possible.

--Amir

DENNIS - 6-2-2007 at 05:57 PM

What would it take to end this thread?
Open border?
Closed border?
Amnesty?
No amnesty?
Free Pacifico?
No more Pacifico. ever?

Please. Let's respect its old age and its demise.

Please...........

amir - 6-2-2007 at 06:13 PM

Yeah!!! How DO you kill a thread??

Maybe by not posting on it any more. Every time we post, it brings it to the top again. Then Nomads see how many "hits" it got and they want to see why! Over 4,430 views. That must be some sort of record. But there WERE some good posts in here (I hope nobody asks me which).

I know: NO MORE PACIFICO IF YOU POST HERE AGAIN!

Skeet/Loreto - 6-4-2007 at 04:23 PM

"And the Farmer Hauls another Load Away"

PJC - 6-4-2007 at 10:04 PM

Hmmm... An interesting topic for sure..

Amnesty? Not 'till the borders are very secure. How's that for a compromise?

Really, without proper efforts to secure the border, and to create and manage lawful immigration on a wider scale we will be back in the same dilemma in another 15-20 years.

oldhippie - 6-5-2007 at 09:55 AM

Looks like the immigration debate is in its 200th+ year. Here's James Madison's cut on immigration and the history of laws/actions that have been tried. PS You don't need to remind me that this thread is about amnesty for illegal immigrants and the following doesn't always make that distinction.

"When we are considering the advantages that may result from an easy mode of naturalization, we ought also to consider the cautions necessary to guard against abuse. It is no doubt very desirable that we should hold out as many inducements as possible for the worthy part of mankind to come and settle amongst us, and throw their fortunes into a common lot with ours. But why is this desirable? Not merely to swell the catalogue of people. No, sir, it is to increase the wealth and strength of the community; and those who acquire the rights of citizenship, without adding to the strength or wealth of the community are not the people we are in want of."

1886: Crescent City decides to "remove all Mongolians from our midst." No Chinese are allowed to live in Humboldt County for the next 60 years.

This is a wild 1922 law that was eventually repealed:
"Any woman who marries an alien ineligible to citizenship shall cease to be a citizen of the United States."

That was the 67th Congress dominated by (wouldn't ya know it) Republicans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/67th_United_States_Congress

History of US Immigration Laws:

http://www.idexer.com/articles/immigration_response.htm

Cost versus Benefit

MrBillM - 6-5-2007 at 10:19 AM

Throughout the history of the American Colonies and later the United States, our immigration policies have (rightly) varied according to our Economic and Sociological needs.

In researching my Paternal Genealogy, I found the notation that my antecedent who immigrated to the Colonies in 1635 did so to beat a deadline set by England to curtail unrestricted emmigration. After having established his residence, he returned to England for his spouse.

Today, as before, the bottom-line needs to be overall benefit to the Country as a whole and not one segment or another.

toneart - 6-5-2007 at 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM[/i

Today, as before, the bottom-line needs to be overall benefit to the Country as a whole and not one segment or another.

"bottom-line" meaning net profit :?:

..."to be overall benefit to the Country" meaning We the People :?:

Just asking. :rolleyes:

oldhippie - 6-5-2007 at 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Throughout the history of the American Colonies and later the United States, our immigration policies have (rightly) varied according to our Economic and Sociological needs.

Reading the history I posted it appears that the policies have wrongly varied according to the xenophobia de jour and had nothing to do with economic nor sociological needs. Except if your "sociological need" is due to an inability to deal with anything you perceive to be foreign.

Xena Who ?

MrBillM - 6-5-2007 at 04:36 PM

The only Xena I've ever seen was a real Fox.
She had great Dual "Personalities".

Having worked with a couple of aged people who were still time-warped in the 60s, complete with LONG GRAY Hair and a VW Van with Peace symbols, I laughingly pointed at them one day and said to a co-worker "have you ever seen anything more pitiful ?" I knew they wouldn't start anything because they're all Pacifists, right?" Besides, HIM I could have whipped. Her, I'm not too sure about.

toneart - 6-5-2007 at 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
The only Xena I've ever seen was a real Fox.
She had great Dual "Personalities".

Having worked with a couple of aged people who were still time-warped in the 60s, complete with LONG GRAY Hair and a VW Van with Peace symbols, I laughingly pointed at them one day and said to a co-worker "have you ever seen anything more pitiful ?" I knew they wouldn't start anything because they're all Pacifists, right?" Besides, HIM I could have whipped. Her, I'm not too sure about.

oldhippie - 6-6-2007 at 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrBillM
Besides, HIM I could have whipped.

Hmmmm, goodie for you Mr. Bill.

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