BajaNomad - When will the people of Mexico take back their country?

When will the people of Mexico take back their country?

Pages: 1 2 3

Bajaboy - 12-1-2008 at 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
Large fines don't seem to scare people. Proof of that is drunk driving as the fines have increased over ten fold along with increased insurance rates, etc and still it is a problem.

It will take very stiff jail sentences and I don't see us incarcerating so many people as a realistic solution...

Well according to the statistics, alcohol related crashes are down:
http://www.madd.org/getfile/87c27a21-7866-47d6-8ad3-5025867b...

Not sure why this is such a bad approach. Or we could just throw in the towel and legalize drugs. What a simple answer.

zac

How about this...

Dave - 12-1-2008 at 03:55 PM

First time offenders fined the cost of prosecution and given a 5 year suspended sentence subject to a strict non-association policy with drug users. Break the terms and go directly to jail. No exception. Make it for term and the records are expunged.

Take ALL the billions spent outside our borders to prop up narco states and drug interdiction and put it to work here against the end user.

Demand drives this market. Kill it.

Woooosh - 12-1-2008 at 03:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajaboy

Quote:

"Alcohol related" stats cloud the issue as it has nothing to do with the condion of the driver at the time of the accident. If an empty beer can is found in the back seat , the accident is "alcohol related"

DUI numbers are twisted as well. Most DUI accidents take place when the driver is two or three times the legal DUI limit- not just one beer over.

BajaGringo - 12-1-2008 at 04:01 PM

Read this interesting perspective from the retired chief of police of Seattle:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2002661006_sun...

Skipjack Joe - 12-1-2008 at 04:11 PM

This is going to show my ignorance but here goes anyway:

Ric, what about patches? Like the nicotine patch, this would be a cheap imitation of the replacable drug that would temporarily remove the craving but not have the damaging effects of say heroin. Has anything like that been attempted? Can't the drug companies come up with something like that that would compete with the drug dealers for people who have tried drugs but want out and can't do it.

flame away!

BajaGringo - 12-1-2008 at 04:13 PM

Skip - I think it's a very good question...

woody with a view - 12-1-2008 at 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
This is going to show my ignorance but here goes anyway:

Ric, what about patches? Like the nicotine patch, this would be a cheap imitation of the replacable drug that would temporarily remove the craving but not have the damaging effects of say heroin. Has anything like that been attempted? Can't the drug companies come up with something like that that would compete with the drug dealers for people who have tried drugs but want out and can't do it.

flame away!

the thing is, is, they gotta wanna quit!!! most junkies don't want to quit until they are tired of the game....it usually takes awhile.

Iflyfish - 12-1-2008 at 07:05 PM

SkipJack

There are alternatives for Heroin and other opiates. Methadone has been used since the 1970s as have legalization including providing addicts with drugs. There are many models for treatment including needle exchanges and safe places to inject. Titration is the treatment of choice for withdrawal from alcohol, barbiturates, stimulants and opiates. There are also other drugs that can assist the addict in “coming down” but none is without its own particular pain or issue. There is no free lunch. Substituting one addictive drug for another is a questionable approach from the perspective of many involved in drug treatment. It seems like providing the drug itself makes more sense to me. Now don’t get me wrong. I am not advocating drug use. We are talking about alternative views of treatment. There is a point of view that advocates abstinence pure and simple and others who advocate occasional use by some and some advocate substitutes i.e. methadone. The abstinence folks hold center court at this time.

One of the problems with recovery is that it appears that the addict to relationships, sex, or processes need to “hit bottom” and that is never a pretty sight and the bottom is different for different people. People engaged in recovery often “relapse” and it is to be an expected part of treatment and each incident must be processed by the addict and alternatives developed.

Again I think it is important to recognize that we are not talking about a single drug but a range of drugs, stimulants, including the range of amphetamines, Ritalin, Adderall, etc. barbiturates, cocaine, opiates, hallucinogenic drugs i.e. LSD, Mescaline, Peyote, Psilocybin and marijuana.

It would appear that, second to alcohol, marijuana would be the drug of choice for most people and therefore its legalization would have the most affect on the problem. Cocaine and amphetamines probably follow close behind with opiates in third place. I think each drug would need to be dealt with in a different way. For instance Switzerland is providing government grown and produced heroin to its addicts twice per day so that the people can work and not have to spend their time “hustling” their fix and the money it takes to purchase it on the open market. This takes the underground out of the equation and does not require the addict to acquire large amounts of money each day to pay their dealer. Getting addicts out of the closet is a necessary first step and there are models of successful treatment that could and should be replicated.

It is important to understand that junkies don’t use to get high, after the first round they use to feel normal. There are functional addicts just like there are functional alcoholics. People can use and still be productive. Because these drugs are part of an underground economy and not legally available the addict must spend a great deal of time and money obtaining their drugs. You have spent time with functional alcoholics and addicts and probably never knew it. I see functional alcoholics every day when in Mexico and they are “invisible” to most of us. They just “drink beer” and have a beer in their hand at all times of the day. They may work on your car, fish with you in their panga, etc. etc. Mexico is just not as puritanical about these things as is the USofA.

Woody has a good point, a very interesting book on the subject was written by William S. Burroughs, The Naked Lunch, in which he describes a dance of people addicted to drugs, addicted to the thrill of the attainment of drugs, cops addicted to “busting” junkies etc. For some being on the SWAT squad is a major source of adrenaline, a very powerful drug along with testosterone which those folks seem to have by the bucket. Have you ever seen the pleasure of the pack as those guys kick down the door of a “bad” guy? Oops, worn door, oh well, great op anyway. Burroughs was a heroin addict and one of the first to go through treatment with methadone. There are lots of very famous people, like Freud, who used drugs, in Freud’s case, cocaine. These people used drugs and yet were productive people. We seem to forget this in our zeal to eradicate this most hedonistic of behaviors, drugs that others use that I do not. Have you ever seen anyone more self righteous than an X smoker in the presence of another smoker. Hyperbole folks, just hyperbole, but you get the point.

Iflyfish

Meth Additiction In Mexico

CaboRon - 12-2-2008 at 05:41 AM

Mexicans catch meth habit in shadow of drugs war

December 1, 2008

Meth, which can be taken in pills, snorted or injected, is cheaper
than cocaine or heroin and has a long-lasting high. But the drug is
highly addictive and is very difficult to treat.

By Mica Rosenberg

MEXICO CITY, Dec 1 (Reuters) - Drug violence, including decapitations
and grenade attacks, has killed some 4,500 people in Mexico this year
but thousands of others are falling victim to a quieter crisis:
addiction to methamphetamine.

Mexico is now the largest producer of methamphetamine for the U.S.
market and traffickers have recently found a growing number of users
at home, many of them minors.

Meth, which can be taken in pills, snorted or injected, is cheaper
than cocaine or heroin and has a long-lasting high. But the drug is
highly addictive and is very difficult to treat.

Meth use in Mexico has quadrupled in six years, according to a survey
by the health ministry. The study, to be released in the coming
weeks, shows 0.5 percent of the Mexican population has tried meth,
more than double the 0.2 percent of the U.S. population who have used
it.

One 23-year-old who gave her name as Violeta started using hard drugs
like crack-cocaine as a teenager working in a Mexico City strip club.
She tried meth for the first time when dozens of pills were passed
around on a tray at a party.

She once stopped breathing after a bad hit of the drug, which
accelerates the heart rate.

"The last thing I remember is having a great time dancing. Then I
woke up in the hospital. Apparently I was convulsing in the
bathroom," she said.

As U.S. authorities cracked down in recent years on the sale of the
drug's ingredients, busting "mom and pop" labs in blue collar garages
and bathrooms, Mexican gangs that already smuggled huge quantities of
cocaine and marijuana into the United States moved in to meet the
demand for meth.

They are now churning out tonnes of meth in "super labs".

The trade is a part of a bitter fight in Mexico which has pitted
rival drug gangs against each other and the security forces. The
conflict has worsened this year with a record number of murders.

Last year, Mexican police found $206 million. a world record drug
cash haul, in the mansion of Chinese-born "meth king" Zhenli Ye Gon.
He made his fortune importing meth's ingredients from Asia.

BANANA FLAVORED DRUGS

In Mexico City's historical center, meth labs are hidden in the
basements of normal-looking houses. Dealers take the drug, sometimes
banana flavored, to schools to sell.

Addicts shooting up in the dry ravines in the shadow of the U.S.-
Mexico border in Tijuana were the first wave of meth users. Many were
deported immigrants who got their first taste of the drug in the
United States.

"It's really easy to find. First they give it to you for free but
later you have to buy it," said one slight 10-year-old who called
himself Gilberto at a drug treatment center in Tijuana, just across
the border from San Diego.

The drug began spreading south, showing up at raves and clubs in
pills in a wide array of flavors and colors, and with names like 'the
elevator' and the 'ying-yang.'

The health ministry survey -- the only national data available on
drug use in general -- found the number of women taking drugs in
general in Mexico doubled between 2002 and 2008 and the number of
addicts over all jumped by more than 50 percent.

Strict U.S. border control, the increased availability of narcotics,
Mexican army and police action against cartels trying to smuggle
drugs to the United States, and looser social norms are all blamed
for the increased consumption in Mexico.

"When you crack down on the drug trade, cartels start paying
(middlemen) in drugs, which they then have to turn around and sell,"
Health Minister Jose Angel Cordova said.

All because of stuffed up noses

k-rico - 12-2-2008 at 08:11 AM

As I've stated before I believe a good approach to the meth problem is to crack down on the legal manufacturers of the precursor chemical (pseudoephedrine) that are making huge profits from the methamphetamine addiction that is destroying so many lives.

"The U.N. World Drug Report calls meth the most abused hard drug on earth, and the world's 26 million meth addicts equals the combined number for cocaine and heroin users. America alone has 1.4 million users, and the number is rising; globally, the highest concentration of addicts is in East and Southeast Asia."

"Mexico legally imports 224 tons of pseudoephedrine -- twice as much as they need to make cold medicine. The extra 100 tons is cooked into meth, then smuggled, like other drugs, across the border into the United States. As a result, meth on American streets is as pure as it's ever been."

http://www.osagetribe.com/preventionprograms/news_story.aspx...

also,

link

[Edited on 12-2-2008 by k-rico]

Iflyfish - 12-2-2008 at 08:24 AM

BajaGringo

I have wasted a lot of words, this guy says it all and says it well. God grant me the gift of brevity and the wisdom to use it.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2002661006_sun...

Iflyfishwhennotcomposingbloatedparagraphswithdependantclauses

k-rico - 12-2-2008 at 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
BajaGringo

I have wasted a lot of words, this guy says it all and says it well. God grant me the gift of brevity and the wisdom to use it.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2002661006_sun...

Iflyfishwhennotcomposingbloatedparagraphswithdependantclauses

yes but he also says:

"But wouldn't regulated legalization lead to more users and, more to the point, drug abusers? Probably, though no one knows for sure — our leaders are too timid even to broach the subject in polite circles, much less to experiment with new policy models. My own prediction? We'd see modest increases in use, negligible increases in abuse."

Opinions, predictions......based upon what? Don't forget we're talking about highly addictive drugs too, where use turns into abuse very quickly. That's a fact.

Everything is relative, and relative to hard drugs, the softer ones like marijuana are a very small problem.

Besides, let's say you could go to a drug store and buy your drug of choice for $10. All the black market would have to do is sell the same dose for $7 and they're back in business. Where is logical end? The government supplies them for free?

[Edited on 12-2-2008 by k-rico]

[Edited on 12-2-2008 by k-rico]

Iflyfish - 12-2-2008 at 08:49 AM

k-rico

You have posted a very interesting citation and one that I learned something from. Since I am in my sixties I know about speed. I saw it used a lot in the Bay Area in my youth and helped treat addicts during that time. Crystal Meth had not yet been synthesized so I have had little exposure to it. It sounds like it is a super amphetamine, very powerful and highly addictive. The withdrawals I witnessed in Psychiatric hospitals from speed, the old meth, were horrible and predictable, paranoia and the sensation of spiders crawling on and in the flesh. I was surprised to see the commonality of the hallucinations, always spiders. Epinephrine, a neurotransmitter in the brain is lowered and so the addict who is withdrawing is overwhelmed with sensory input that they cannot process hence paranoia. The “spiders” may be related to the sensations produced by hair follicles, that’s just my speculation

http://www.osagetribe.com/preventionprograms/news_story.aspx...

Your post and the idea of cutting access to necessary ingredients for crystal meth production certainly has merit and indeed appears to have impacted the trade when implemented though it certainly is a cat and mouse game coming up with the next source of raw material. Human beings are amazingly creative and inventive when it comes to their drugs. Have you ever thought how “primitive” people would have sorted out that their coca leaves were more powerful if they mixed them with the ashes of shells burned in a fire? Go figure. That’s a multi step process worked out way before the internet.

This post also underscores the fact that different drugs require different strategies as has been said before in this thread.

Iflyfishwhennotmarvelingathumannatureanditsapparentneedtoalterconsciousness

Iflyfish - 12-2-2008 at 08:52 AM

k-rico

"Where is logical end? The government supplies them for free?"

In some cases, i.e. heroin, the Swiss model of providing the drug twice per day may have merit. Other drugs may require other strategies like those you have been talking about i.e. limiting the supply of components.

Iflyfish

Skipjack Joe - 12-2-2008 at 10:05 AM

K-Rico is right on in his critique of that article. It makes a lot of claims about the benefits to enforcement and reduction of violence but when it came to predicting drug use after legalization - a small paragraph that basically says "I'm not sure". What else can you expect from a police chief. He hasn't really said anything we don't already know. An opinion from a senior health official on the matter may be more enlightening.

Thank you for the article on Meth and it's impact on the Mexican people. Increasing usage and crime rate. Widespread availability. The stats are alarming. It really sounds like things will get worse, not better.

BajaGringo - 12-2-2008 at 10:30 AM

You are right Skip/K-Rico that we cannot be sure if there will be some increase in drug use if legalized. We can be sure that there will be a reduction in the deaths from the current narco drug wars as well as reduced costs for current drug laws enforcement/court costs/encarceration/probation. There will be additional revenue from the taxation of these drugs and all that money saved/earned can go to education about drug use, much like we do with cigarettes today.

I think it is a chance worth taking as we know for sure the current policy is not working. I also accept that we disagree on this point but that is something that we will probably not change, no matter how much we talk about it...

toneart - 12-2-2008 at 05:27 PM

This has been a very thorough discussion. We have learned enough from each other to retreat back to our predisposed positions, fortified with more material to back up those positions.

Dave said, "we are blowing academic smoke". This is true.

The Turtle tried to give this string a terminal injection with a hypodermic needle. We are too addicted for it to be fatal.

Ifly expressed an admiration for brevity. For that very reason, I untied the knot in this string and tried to slip away. Alas, brevity is not my strong suit. I need monastery time. :coolup:

The Quaalude Lesson

k-rico - 12-3-2008 at 08:01 AM

"At one time, the sleeping pill Quaalude was as big a problem in the United States as heroin and cocaine. But then, in a matter of just a few years, it disappeared. If the successful strategy the DEA pursued in cracking down on Quaaludes had been followed when meth surfaced a few years later, experts say it is unlikely the meth epidemic would ever have happened."

"Just like Quaaludes, the key ingredients in methamphetamine are so chemically sophisticated that they can only be made by a few large manufacturers. When meth abuse started appearing on the West Coast in the mid-80s, Haislip and his colleagues at the DEA were confident that with a new chemical control law for meth's key ingredients, ephedrine or pseudoephedrine, meth too would be beaten. But they were wrong."

The profits made by the pharmaceutical companies by unstuffing stuffed-up noses with pills were more important.

The next time you get a cold, buy a box of Kleenex.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/meth/faqs/quaaludes....

[Edited on 12-3-2008 by k-rico]

BajaGringo - 12-3-2008 at 08:32 AM

I agree with your point on that k-rico. The problem is that the base ingredients of drugs like marijuana, cocaine and heroin are naturally grown...

movinguy - 12-3-2008 at 09:20 AM

Not to drag this out any further, but here's an interesting point of view (from law enforcement):

www.leap.cc

Heard the head guy on the radio the other day - he's pretty convincing . . .

Iflyfish - 12-3-2008 at 09:35 AM

movinguy

Thanks, I continue to learn, didn't realize these guys existed.

Iflyfish

BajaGringo - 12-3-2008 at 09:38 AM

Very interesting link...

k-rico - 12-3-2008 at 12:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
I agree with your point on that k-rico. The problem is that the base ingredients of drugs like marijuana, cocaine and heroin are naturally grown...

Of course that's true for those drugs and everyone knows it, but its not true for methamphetamine, probably the most widely abused and the most destructive of them all.

THE fundamental reason it exists is because of the LEGAL manufacture of its precursor chemicals so shareholders in the pharmaceutical companies can profit from the huge sales of unnecessary but nice to have cold medicines. That is why I'm focusing in on it. The chemical companies and the pharmaceutical companies know what's going on BUT PROFITS ARE MORE IMPORTANT.

Remember that the next time you hear of someone dying because of the meth trade or decide to buy sudafed because you are bothered by a runny nose.

k-rico - 12-3-2008 at 12:47 PM

From the link posted above:

If hard drugs such as heroin or cocaine were legalized would you be likely to use them?

99% SAY "NO"

Zogby International asked that question of 1,028 likely voters. Ninety-nine out of 100 said "No." Only 0.6 percent said "Yes."

Drug War advocates have always insisted that addiction would explode if drugs were legalized. But that argument comes apart under the weight of the evidence. While a poll can't predict actual drug use, it clearly shows that most of us avoid hard drugs because of common sense – not fear of arrest.

-------------------------------------------------

What a bogus poll!!! They asked 1,028 LIKELY VOTERS. May I suggest that likely voters aren't likely drug users. If they asked the twenty something crowd hanging out on the streets they would jump for joy at legalized drugs. AND then your son or daughter that just went away to college may attend the next party awash in LEGALIZED drugs where there is no fear of arrest or any kind of recriminations. But of course your son or daughter would say no. It's the other people's sons and daughters that decide to experiment with heroin, cocaine, and methamphetamine, and of course few will get addicted eventhough the drugs made them feel great. Why do you think people get addicted, because it's an unpleasant experience?

movinguy - 12-3-2008 at 01:13 PM

It is the government's job to protect people from each other, not to protect them from themselves. :coolup:

Skipjack Joe - 12-3-2008 at 01:31 PM

Following your lead on this, K-Rico.

It appears that pharmaceutical companies have been making changes in the drugs to comply with the Combat Methamphetamine Epidemic Act of 2005. Looks like phenylepherine is replacing pseudoephedrine in common drugs manufactured by the pharmaceuticals to thwart the generation of methatamines.

http://new.stjohns.edu/academics/centers/teach/forum/forum_2...

I'm no expert on this. Just searching the internet on the subject.

k-rico - 12-3-2008 at 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Following your lead on this, K-Rico.

It appears that pharmaceutical companies have been making changes in the drugs to comply with the Combat Methamphetamine Epidemic Act of 2005. Looks like phenylepherine is replacing pseudoephedrine in common drugs manufactured by the pharmaceuticals to thwart the generation of methatamines.

http://new.stjohns.edu/academics/centers/teach/forum/forum_2...

I'm no expert on this. Just searching the internet on the subject.

You're correct. Of course what I'm saying is not news to the experts. There are efforts to eliminate the precursor chemicals. But it's an uphill battle because of DC lobbyists and Wall Street shareholders. Meth will/might be impossible to cook up someday, but only after the pharmaceutical companies come up with a new chemical the shrinks mucas membranes so polite people don't have to blow their noses when they have a cold.

Buy a handkerchief!

toneart - 12-3-2008 at 08:30 PM

:yes:

dao45 - 12-3-2008 at 11:07 PM

For alol anyone knows the cartels might own legal comanies and run night shifts.
Happens in Asia

Cocaine addiction

Skipjack Joe - 12-3-2008 at 11:40 PM

Found this to be informative about how powerful cocaine addiction is:

Relapse rates among cocaine users is in the range of 94-99%, the highest among all common drugs of abuse.

Rhesus monkeys (mothers) will abandon their young just to stay hooked. That helped me understand why my bud Tony could never come clean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cocaine_dependence#Treatment

BajaGringo - 12-3-2008 at 11:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by k-rico
The chemical companies and the pharmaceutical companies know what's going on BUT PROFITS ARE MORE IMPORTANT.

Very true...

Skipjack Joe - 12-4-2008 at 12:11 AM

The term "War on Drugs" makes no sense to me in that it implies some sort of victory and finality to the whole thing. It's more like trying to cure the common cold (don't run with this bajagringo). The virus is constantly changing and morphing and you just have to stay on top of things. Similarly, the potential number of addictive drugs is probably endless and as soon as one solution is found another drug will appear and the process will start all over again.

Why people get hooked on meth

k-rico - 12-4-2008 at 08:13 AM

If you're an old Nomad, just add Viagra:

"Doctors and government officials don’t like to talk much about it, but there is an obvious reason people get hooked on methamphetamine: sex."

If Pfizer came up with a harmless substitute aphrodisiac, they would make a fortune. They could mix it in with the Viagra chemical and add a porn DVD (blue ray of course) to the package. - Wow!!

"Come on sweetie, let's stay home tonight, but I need to go to the pharmacia first." :spingrin:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6646180/

[Edited on 12-4-2008 by k-rico]

gnukid - 12-4-2008 at 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
The term "War on Drugs" makes no sense to me in that it implies some sort of victory and finality to the whole thing. It's more like trying to cure the common cold (don't run with this bajagringo). The virus is constantly changing and morphing and you just have to stay on top of things. Similarly, the potential number of addictive drugs is probably endless and as soon as one solution is found another drug will appear and the process will start all over again.

It seems well understood to be a false notion with many layers of lies built upon one goal-profit for bankers.

Interesting to look back at our naivete only a decade or two ago compared to the level of awareness today about the true perpetrators of drug sales.

Now, it seems the time has come to put this nonsense to rest and to move toward practical community centered programs that eradicate the criminal/bank/cartel influence while supporting those who need help and rehabilitating those who suffer from addiction.

Iflyfish - 12-4-2008 at 09:33 AM

Skipjack

You are absolutely right, it is a giant and very expensive wach a mole game with out end.

k-rico

The sort of information that you are providing is what in the long run, along with experience meeting tweekers who have burned themselves out with this drug is what will finally decrease its use. Public education strategies that tell the TRUTH is what is sorely needed. Scare campaigns built on lies only makes the problem worse. I think it is important for people, including young people to know that DRUGS FEEL GOOD. Acknowledging this simple fact undermines the arguments for use. I always talk about this issue with people in the following way. Why do people take drugs? This leads directly to the issue, "They feel good". Then comes the next question "have you ever seen people who have used drugs and how it affects them?" Young people generally only know casual users and may not have been exposed to long term users or addicts. Then comes the exposure to those folks in whatever way you can. Treat it like a job exploration. What do you want to do about this yourself? How would you know if someone you knew had a problem with drugs or alcohol? How would you know if you had a problem with alcohol or drugs? Who would be the last to know if you had a problem with alcohol or drugs? Who would you trust to be straight with you if they thought you were having a problem with alcohol or drugs? What would you do if they told you this?

It takes time to educate a populace but it can be done, look at the decrease in tobacco use that is clearly tied to public education, taxes and laws regarding use. Social stigma has now been attached to tobacco use and it also has an effect.

Iflyfish

Skipjack Joe - 12-4-2008 at 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
Skipjack

You are absolutely right...

Oh, I love it when you say that. That might be my preferred drug. :bounce:

Edder - 1-15-2009 at 06:46 PM

Well,

I have to say I'm happy to be home and back in my normal routine. School is going well so far but its still early. I'm trying to be really into it and get it done so we'll see how that progress goes.

I am sitting at home, in my house with heat just blowing up a storm in the basement while it is snowy and roughly -26 degrees Celsius outside. Tomorrow morning it will be -32 degrees Celsius. I'm not happy about that; I have an 8am class...across the city!

Let's hope TioMiguel's son who I named, Baja Ben!'s Volvo will start!!!
That doesn't happen in Mexico does it? Unless someone's taken your engine...right?
Greetings from Canada,
Edder

You know what we say here;
If you don't like the weather in Canada - wait 5 minutes.

BajaGringo - 1-15-2009 at 07:43 PM

Huh???

Glad your back home but what in the hell does any of this have to do with when will the people of Mexico take back their country????

DENNIS - 1-15-2009 at 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Edder
You know what we say here;
If you don't like the weather in Canada - wait 5 minutes.

I thought Mark Twain said that .......

"If you don't like the weather in New England, wait a minute."

BajaGringo - 1-15-2009 at 10:22 PM

That's kind of like what I tell my company I have over here at the house.

"If you don't like me now, wait till I've had 3 more drinks."

( burp )

Looking at my avatar I can see I get better looking too. Be patient, I am sure to improve...

Some more avatars for ya

Skipjack Joe - 1-15-2009 at 11:19 PM

king.jpg - 34kB

BajaGringo - 1-16-2009 at 12:10 AM

Is that Larry King? What did he do; bore somebody to death???

:lol:

DENNIS - 1-16-2009 at 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
Is that Larry King? What did he do; bore somebody to death???

:lol:

He was arrested for interviewing himself. Softballs flying all around the room. It was gruesome.

Sometimes they do take it back

Osprey - 1-16-2009 at 07:41 AM

Shade for Encino

One of the sugar Haciendas, just north of Cuernavaca, claimed and took control of several hectares of land and part of a tiny pueblo. A rag-tag band of Indians and Mexicans attacked the Hacienda in retaliation and killed two people they found outside the walls. The dead were Indians who worked for the Hacienda. No Gachupines, Spaniards, were encountered or harmed. It was enough. Within the next two weeks the incident was reported to the office of the Vice Royalty in Cuernavaca and a troop of Rurales, mounted soldiers, was dispatched to put the matter right.

Encino, the captain's small, dark horse, was in a froth. The captain had pushed his mount and his men at a pace too fast for the weather. He hoped he could bring this messy business to a close and return to the barracks that same night. Perhaps his horse longed to return to the cool mountains of Northern Spain; leave forever this prickly oven.

Captain Juan Diego Villa Real was proud of his men; they routed the peasants from the fields and foothills in short order and now had eleven dirty-faced men in white, waiting in the heat to meet their maker. Their hands were bound behind them, the soldiers had taken their shoes; the ponies had trampled their sombreros in the dust. The scene was strangely quiet and serene, the huge green Laurel trees that lined the entrance to the Hacienda were lit up by the bright and noisy flying lemons, Colandria, Orioles, that always brought smiles to the faces of the children of the Hacendados.

As one man was being led to the wall before the rifle squad, he passed a little too close to the Captain's horse. The horse reared and pranced nervously at the sound of the man's voice. The Captain yelled at his soldiers, who by now were laughing and smiling at the remark. "¿Como dice?" "What did he say?" "Con su permiso, Capitan". "With your permission". The eleven men died quickly and the troop returned to the cool comfort of the compound in the city before the sun had disappeared behind the Sierra Madres. The corpses were left by the wall, where they fell; wives and others from the pueblo would recover them that night.

Less than a month later one of the men his soldiers had not seen or captured on that dusty day at the Hacienda, put a bullet above and behind the Captain's right ear, taking off one whole side of his head. As the Captain fell from the saddle his horse bolted. Encino did not run long in the killing heat.

The blood on the ground at the Hacienda was crimson wet on September 20, 1849. It might have been spilled months, years or decades, before or after, anywhere in Mexico. The core of continents and civilizations change slowly. The people do not change.

Things that caused the spilling of this particular blood, a thick, heady mixture of Indians, Spaniards and Mexicans, are simple and enduring. Abused by isolation in lands torn by drought and tempests, the people learn to accept. Accept famine, disease, death and conquest while looking to the sky and hoping only for rain and forgiveness from their gods. Used to apologies and humbled by a fate they could not see nor predict, their adaptations did not require losing a tail or growing new feathers -- it required a unique sense of balance -- keeping your eyes on the ground while, from time to time, holding your head high. Eventually this posture earned polite contemporaries in the Americas the complement; "Cortes como uno Mexicano", "As courteous as a Mexican".

As the hard but arable space diminished; more stomachs, less trigo, wheat, the more humility would be needed. Endurance became another name for life. Conditions spawned parades of charlatans, thieves, and patriots who shamed a timid populace to rage and riot -- "how could you let them take your lands?" "Kill the Gachupines". Etc. Etc. The longer the people had endured the taking of their lands and their pride, the harder they fought to regain it.

Today a new arrival to this spiky finger of land, Baja California, when meeting, for the first time, a Chollero, a local Mexican, might expect a summer greeting of "hola, mucho calor", "Hello, it's very hot". Extended conversations, friendly exchanges of pleasantries, gossip will surely include apologies for the food, the weather, the travel conditions, the heat, polvo, dust, the lack of fish, the high prices of everything, the government and the local police. He or she will undoubtedly say that things, unhappily, are not as nice, sweet, simple, as they were in the past. They may lower their eyes, show a faint smile to hide this customary lie.

CaboRon - 1-16-2009 at 08:37 AM

Great Story !

Just another reason we need a story thread ...

CaboRon

Iflyfish - 1-16-2009 at 08:53 AM

Well said Osprey. History is the best predictor of future behavior.

Iflyfish

DENNIS - 1-16-2009 at 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
History is the best predictor of future behavior.

Iflyfish

I agree with that, Rick, if only if we take the time to learn from it. So often we don't.

BajaGringo - 1-16-2009 at 11:16 AM

Do they still even require history to graduate from high school today? Based on conversations I have had with some of the latest grads I doubt it...

Iflyfish - 1-16-2009 at 01:32 PM

I know that Civics are no longer taught, too much time focused on teaching to the test, three Rs....

Iflyfish

Overcompensation

Skipjack Joe - 1-16-2009 at 08:03 PM

Remember 'History of Western Civilization'? They now teach World History in middle school. Which I think is correct.

But here's what's strange: a full quarter was devoted to Islam. I now know the names of Muhammed's wife and his uncle. And his descendants and how the split occured leading to the Sikhs and chiites. And the flight from Medina. This, while a lot less is taught on the cultures of India, China, and Japan, not to mention Byzantium, which lasted 1200 years.

My conclusion is that our Iraq war has greatly influenced California's board of education, which must feel that our young minds now need to know more about Islam. At the expense of other great historical events. Personally I think that's wrong.

[Edited on 1-17-2009 by Skipjack Joe]

Bajahowodd - 1-16-2009 at 08:16 PM

Don't know exactly how much the curriculum concerns Islam. But, just remember that some of our greatest mistakes in recent decades in the Middle East is our profound lack of knowledge of their religon and culture. Seem to recall that is was Muslims that conquered much of Europe some time back. Barcelona, anyone?

[Edited on 1-17-2009 by Bajahowodd]

Sharksbaja - 1-16-2009 at 09:10 PM

Ouch. Who needs a religious war when WMD is a good enough excuse.

Yep, teaching to test has cost a generation much necessary knowledge.

They pulled our son out of 14 classes this year to go do testing cause he's good at it. Makes the school look good. That's like 14 absences.

Have you ever missed 14 days of chem, algebra 2 and advanced english? Good luck ctching up!
It was another living hell. Now they just cut that program so it was all for not. So rediculous. The focus should be on themselves(policy makers) for forgetting how to get kids to learn basic subjects. :rolleyes:

No

Dave - 1-16-2009 at 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
some of our greatest mistakes is our recent decades in the Middle East is our profound lack of knowledge of their religon and culture.

It was our profound concern to be politically correct. The mosque a haven for Muslim extremists and their weapons. The madrassa a breeding ground for radicals. We should have destroyed both. Killed their clerics.

We were weak-willled. It has cost us dearly.

Bajahowodd - 1-16-2009 at 09:52 PM

Wow. A prime example of my point. How can you talk about mosques? They are Islamic houses of worship. Like Catholic churches in Mexico. Sure. If the Narco gangtsters decided to use a Catholic church as a cover, then, we have quid pro quo. Otherwise, you have your head in a place where the sun don't shine.

When will the people of Mexico take back their country?

Packoderm - 1-16-2009 at 11:23 PM

They're not going to do it. It's not going to happen. Not under any no how. I'll buy a Pacifico for each of the next 100 people who respond to this thread saying the people will stand up - and it does actually happen.

Bajahowodd - 1-16-2009 at 11:31 PM

Sorry. Historically, it's not in their culture. PRI had an oligarcy for so long. We can't keep trying to view Mexico through our lens. There is a long history there. In fact, I would suggest that one of the reasons, so many of us love the Mexican people is rooted in the fact that they are not likely to rise up and revolt. Live and let live. And frankly, how can we condemn the Mexican people when we elected Bush twice?

Iflyfish - 1-16-2009 at 11:44 PM

Rising up in revolt under the Aztecs would cost you your life and enslave your entire family. Rise up against the conquestadores or the priests and it's a blessing before execution. They added the step of the blessing. Same dynamic, just with the sanction of the church. People learn to adapt and the people of Mexico have. It goes way further than the 75 years of PRI.

For an interesting perspective on this I would suggest the novel Aztec. You will find it in any good used book store. It's a fascinating read for those interested in pre Columbian history.

Iflyfish

Bajahowodd - 1-16-2009 at 11:48 PM

And how does this relate to post-Columbian times? Nostalgia?

Packoderm - 1-16-2009 at 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
Rising up in revolt under the Aztecs would cost you your life and enslave your entire family. Rise up against the conquestadores or the priests and it's a blessing before execution. They added the step of the blessing. Same dynamic, just with the sanction of the church. People learn to adapt and the people of Mexico have. It goes way further than the 75 years of PRI.

For an interesting perspective on this I would suggest the novel Aztec. You will find it in any good used book store. It's a fascinating read for those interested in pre Columbian history.

Iflyfish

I'll look for it in the library tomorrow. I have a little time off, and I've been reading a bit. Thanks.

Bajahowodd - 1-17-2009 at 12:28 AM

There have been many dynasties that have dominated the world historically. The common thread among them was that they eventually faded. Greeks, Romans, Turks, Christians, Muslims. The common thread is hubris. So, we're the last standing power? ...

El Comadante Loco - 1-17-2009 at 08:18 AM

In all this discussion there is need for reflection. It is so easy to find fault with any nation or culture. Perhaps we should start of to think of "When will the people of America take back their country "

DENNIS - 1-17-2009 at 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Packoderm
I'll look for it in the library tomorrow. I have a little time off, and I've been reading a bit. Thanks.

Look for other books by Gary Jennings as well. He was a very good writer.

Here's Aztec:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Aztec/Gary-Jennings/e/97807...

Skipjack Joe - 1-17-2009 at 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
But, just remember that some of our greatest mistakes in recent decades in the Middle East is our profound lack of knowledge of their religon and culture.

I'll try to remember that next time.

mtgoat666 - 1-17-2009 at 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Packoderm
When will the people of Mexico take back their country?

All those gringos who bought up the water front lots should be concerned about Mexico taking back their prime real estate. It happens often, so I hear.

Iflyfish - 1-17-2009 at 02:26 PM

Bajahowodd

And how does this relate to post-Columbian times? Nostalgia?

My point is that the people of Mexico have been subjected to an incredibly long history of extreme autocratic rule (Aztecs), then conquered and enslaved (Cortez and the Catholic Church), then experienced a series of autocratic rulers, followed by 75 years of one party rule. I am saying that this history has influenced how Mexicans experience their own personal sense of empowerment.

Cultures evolve in response to social structure as well as geography. Our social behavior is conditioned by those around us who communicate to us how to behave in the society in which we are born. If we were living in parts of Borneo we would have bones in our nose and wonder about those "others" (non-humans?) who do not have these essential items. The bones in our own noses are the hardest ones to see. If we lived in ancient Asia one Kow Towed (prostrated one’s self on the ground) to the emperor/higher authority or died. No wonder they still bow to each other as a greeting in modern Japan.

Mexican culture has evolved over millennia in a very different context than the 200 year old culture of the USofA. The culture of the USofA has of course been influenced by the legal system of the English (Magna Carta etc.), the Enlightenment of Europe (French Revolution), the legacy of the Puritans (strong emphasis on right/wrong), the concept of Manifest Destiny (Whites are superior to Native People and have a right to take their land and use it for their own purposes), and a geography that required a great deal of individualism and independence to deal with the reality of the geography (a seemingly unlimited land available for settlement and exploitation). The culture of the USofA emphasizes the Individual. Our cultural identity, if we are white, has included a seemingly unlimited aspiration and an emphasis on individual responsibility for ones condition. Contrast this for example with India where a rigid Caste system determined ones work and social position in life. If you were born a Brahman, the highest social caste, you had nearly unlimited opportunity, if born an Untouchable you were relegated to a low class with no way to rise above your position in society. Jobs were handed down in families from father to son etc. Contrast this with Mexico where for millennia the ordinary person could hold little hope for achieving beyond their natal station. Consider how in most of the history of Mexico to assert ones individuality could well cause one to be killed on the spot and your family enslaved.

We are a product of our genes interacting with an environment which includes climate, food resources, family scripting (we Iflyfishes eat, sleep, mate, educate and behave in certain ways) sub-cultural scripting (for me white, Anglo Saxon, Protestant, urban, post graduate education, suburban home), Cultural Scripting (USofA, region and history noted above), Religious Scripting (Animist, Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Atheist, Agnostic etc.) We are conditioned by our culture to have certain expectations of ourselves as well as expectations as to how others will behave.
This Tuesday the USofA inaugurates its first Black President. It will now be a part of the cultural scripting of young blacks that they can indeed have nearly unlimited aspiration to achieve the highest office in the land. This is cultural scripting that is happening right now in front of our very eyes. In the USofA the cultural script is indeed “Yes we can”. In Mexico it’s more like “ni modo”, “what’s the point, the deck is stacked anyway.

Iflyfish

postholedigger - 1-17-2009 at 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Packoderm
I'll buy a Pacifico for each of the next 100 people who respond to this thread saying the people will stand up - and it does actually happen.

Just on the 1 in a million chance that it does happen...

THE PEOPLE WILL STAND UP!!!

There...now if it does happen...I'll have a free Pacifico. :lol:

You want scary?

Sharksbaja - 1-17-2009 at 03:16 PM

:wow:

Bajahowodd - 1-17-2009 at 03:51 PM

Iflyfish- I agree.

XRPhlang - 1-17-2009 at 04:11 PM

Wow Iflyfish. I wouldn't mind being stuck in a car with you on a long trip.

Iflyfish - 1-17-2009 at 06:10 PM

XRPhlang

Thank you.

I am so hot for a road trip right now! I would love to tour your wine country on my next run to Baja.

Iflyfish

Skipjack Joe - 1-17-2009 at 06:11 PM

Sharioncetoldmeiflyfishisafascinatingspeaker.

Iflyfish - 1-17-2009 at 06:16 PM

Since the odds are right, I'll hedge my bet and get in line for the Pacifico, Nada Mas. I'll hold postholedigger's coat and take the second brew and raise it to the people of Mexico if they can "take back their country", which they already have.

Iflyfish

postholedigger - 1-18-2009 at 11:22 AM

Actually, my view on this whole issue is the same view I took on Iraq. If the people can't rise up and overthrow a government or change a situation on their own, they aren't going to do very well on their own after someone has overthrown or changed it for them.

BajaGringo - 1-18-2009 at 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by El Comadante Loco
In all this discussion there is need for reflection. It is so easy to find fault with any nation or culture. Perhaps we should start of to think of "When will the people of America take back their country "

Give them a few more years to really get that one...

mtgoat666 - 1-18-2009 at 12:55 PM

Quote:

With Obama we have taken back our country from the despots of the GOP..

Bajahowodd - 1-18-2009 at 04:52 PM

Guess you could say that Bush is owed much gratitude.

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