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Turtle bust

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tehag - 4-19-2009 at 08:24 AM

In all of this agenda-driven mud slinging there is only one statement that I know is absolutely false. That is the following, submitted by the guacamole person(s):

"You can tell because he had the hand chopped off when he got caught stealing in the middle east!"

Under Sharia the right hand is cut off, never the left. Second offense they lop off the left foot.

ELINVESTIG8R - 4-19-2009 at 09:16 AM

I did not know this at the time but when I was in the Gulf War I did not know that the left hand was used to clean their butts over there when they went #2. The right hand is reserved as their eating utensil. I am left handed and you should have seen the look on the Saudi’s faces when I used my left hand to dip into the food in the communal platter at the meal I ate at one of the Prince's tent one evening. It was priceless.

My guess is that if they cut of the right hand it must be because they want you to eat with the same hand they clean their butt with. I am not positive but I think the comment made by OLIGUACOMOLE was made in jest!

THE HAND

OLIGUACOMOLE - 4-19-2009 at 09:38 AM

DON'T KNOW REALLY THE TRUE STORY ABOUT THE HAND JOB. YOU CAN ASK MUNOZ HE WILL TELL YOU THE TRUE AND YOU KNOW IT IS TRUE....JUST ASK EDDIE. :lol:

OLIGUACOMOLE - 4-19-2009 at 10:08 AM

NOW I WANT TO TALK ABOUT BEING ACCUSED OF TURNING MEXICANS AWAY FROM OUR RESTAURANT. QUITE THE CONTRARY UNLESS YOU ARE THE MUNOZ CREW. I WILL SERVE THEM, BUT REMEMBER MOVIE CASINO, THE SCENE IN NICKY'S RESTAURANT! OK....SOMETIMES TOURISTS CHECK INTO THE HOTEL AND THE HOTEL TELLS THEM TO COME KNOCK ON OUR HOUSE DOOR FOR SERVICE. WHEN I TELL THEM WE ARE CLOSED THEY SAY WELL THE GUYS IN THE HOTEL SAID YOU WILL SERVE US! SOMETIMES WE JUST NEED TO CLOSE. ALSO SOMETIMES I SUSPECT CUSTOMERS ARE MUNOZ'S FRIENDS.

WE ARE MOST OF THE TIME OPEN
AND SOMETIMES CLOSED...

THIS IS THE SIGN ON OUR RESTAURANT DOOR
JUST ASK ANY OF THE FOUR DOGS OUTSIDE OUR RESTAURANT!

OLIGUACOMOLE - 4-19-2009 at 10:20 AM

WITH ALL THE HOOPLA OLIVIA AND I ARE THINKING OF RENAMING THE RESTAURANT TO THE:

TORTUGA FELIZ OR THE HAPPY TURTLE????

PRESENT NAME SARGASSO JUST DOES NOT WORK FOR ME.

Baja&Back - 4-19-2009 at 10:28 AM

This guy Munoz, being a typical shyster lawyer, has being twisting the law to harass Olivia & Marko since we've known them (5 years). My take on this is that he's probably peeed that Olivia had the good sense to apply for the Federal Maritime Concession in front of Munoz's hotel because he hadn't the forsight to do so. I looked it up - she does indeed have the concession registered in her name until 11/01/2015.

If asked, I would guess that he was the one who set them up with the blue turtle soup & called the cops .

I am also peeed, for everyone in Bahia Concepcion, that Munoz would invade and fence off public & private land of others and try to BS everyone into thinking he has title to all that property. He, if anyone knows how long it takes the Mexican courts to get squatters kicked off private property. My friend in Los Barriles has been fighting to get invading squatters off his property for 3 years now. What's next? Is Munoz going to try to fence off Santispac, Coyote & Posada???

This guy doesn't seem content to fight his little war quietly. He has been working overtime harassing everyone with any interest in the Concepcion area. He sent us, and other caravan company owners, emails saying we had to pay him, in future, to park on Requeson or Buenaventura. Fat chance, Bucko! I have emailed the other owners, giving them a bit more objective view of the situation.

I wonder if it's him who has been trying to get control of properties around Posada by claiming they are abandoned, just because owners went back to the US for the summer???

I don't have a direct interest in this issue, but am morally choked at this guy's snake-in-the-grass way of trying to screw people. I certainly do tell people I encounter to avoid patronizing the hotel San Buenaventura!

**Disclaimer: To cover my a** and avoid persecution by Munoz, the above is my personal opinion and personal speculation only, and is not intended, in any way, to slander anyone described in my posting.

:yes:

Byron - 4-19-2009 at 10:40 AM

How about renaming your restaurant "Touche Turtle" or "The Ninja Turtle" ?

BajaGringo - 4-19-2009 at 11:16 AM

That is exactly right - many who own "ocean front" property incorrectly assume that they automatically have control of the beach in front of them. The "zona federal" is a concession and must be applied for and then paid for separately. If you own property that is ocean front and don't apply for the concession, a neighbor has the legal right to do so and this does happen often in such cases. I know of one going on right now in the Rosarito area.

DENNIS - 4-19-2009 at 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Baja&Back
This guy Munoz, being a typical shyster lawyer, has being twisting the law to harass Olivia & Marko since we've known them (5 years). My take on this is that he's probably peeed that Olivia had the good sense to apply for the Federal Maritime Concession in front of Munoz's hotel because he hadn't the forsight to do so.

Maybe more a matter of arrogance than lack of forsight. People of even limited power in Mexico feel that the rules and regulations only apply to others. Kind of like members of the current U.S. Cabinet blowing off their tax obligations.

Dave - 4-19-2009 at 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

The arrogance was evident on both sides. Obtaining a concession in front of property you don't own?

Nice. :rolleyes:

BajaGringo - 4-19-2009 at 01:02 PM

It is a distinction made in Mexican property law. To be accurate, I guess the only real oceanfront property is the federal concession (zona federal). The property behind it is beachfront - not oceanfront. Seems like splitting hairs but understanding that difference is important and understanding how important those few meters are can help to avoid such scenarios.

We own a few meters back from beachfront so that will never be an issue for us.

DENNIS - 4-19-2009 at 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave
The arrogance was evident on both sides. Obtaining a concession in front of property you don't own?

Nice. :rolleyes:

Reminds me of when some opportunist licensed the Hussong name for clothing etc. right under Hussong's nose.

OLIGUACOMOLE - 4-19-2009 at 01:15 PM

NOW WAIT, ABOUT THE CONCESSION THING. IT HAS BEEN UNDER OLIVIA SINCE 92. BUT WITH LITTLE ENFORCEMENT OF THE FEDERAL ZONE BY AUTHORITIES. MUNOZ CHARGES FOR CAMPING AND USING THE BEACH EVEN THOUGH OLIVIA PAYS THE FEDERAL ZONE. I WILL ESTIMATE THAT MUNOZ AND CREW HAVE ROBBED US OF AT 100000 PESOS PER YEAR CHARGING FOR OUR PERMITED FEDERAL ZONE. HE TRIES TO GET AWAY WITH IT BY CALLING THE CHARGE AN ENTRANCE FEE. THIS IS WHY THE BEACH IS USUALLY EMPTY IN FRONT OF THE HOTEL.

CONCESSIONS ARE NOT EASY TO GET. IN OUR CASE THE LAND HAS TO BE RE-SURVEYED EVERY 10 YEARS, AND GET AN ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT STUDY BEFORE RENEWAL CAN BE GRANTED. IN 02 THIS COST US OVER 5000 DLLS. THEN YOU HAVE AN ANNUAL FEE WHICH IS NOT CHEAP. DEPENDING ON YOU TYPE OF CONCESSION YOU PAY A DIFFERENT SCALE.

MUNOZ SAYS HE HAS OWNED BUENAVENTURA SINCE 1971. THAT MAKES HIM 18 WHEN HE BOUGHT THE PLACE!?!

BajaGringo - 4-19-2009 at 01:34 PM

The federal zone is resurveyed each time as the line may be re-drawn. That is because it is subject to change over time due to tidal action, storms, natural erosion, etc. Anybody buying beachfront needs to be aware of this and something to be very careful with when building there. I have seen some deal with problems over this very issue.

As far as Muñoz "owning" the property since he was 18, that may or may not be true. It is a custom here in Mexico for folks to say they "own" a property when in fact title is held in the name of their father or grandfather. They use the family tie very loosely when discussing property down here, although in court only the name on the escritura is what really matters.

DianaT - 4-19-2009 at 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by OLIGUACOMOLE
NOW WAIT, ABOUT THE CONCESSION THING. IT HAS BEEN UNDER OLIVIA SINCE 92. BUT WITH LITTLE ENFORCEMENT OF THE FEDERAL ZONE BY AUTHORITIES. MUNOZ CHARGES FOR CAMPING AND USING THE BEACH EVEN THOUGH OLIVIA PAYS THE FEDERAL ZONE. I WILL ESTIMATE THAT MUNOZ AND CREW HAVE ROBBED US OF AT 100000 PESOS PER YEAR CHARGING FOR OUR PERMITED FEDERAL ZONE. HE TRIES TO GET AWAY WITH IT BY CALLING THE CHARGE AN ENTRANCE FEE. THIS IS WHY THE BEACH IS USUALLY EMPTY IN FRONT OF THE HOTEL.

CONCESSIONS ARE NOT EASY TO GET. IN OUR CASE THE LAND HAS TO BE RE-SURVEYED EVERY 10 YEARS, AND GET AN ENVIRONMENTAL IMPACT STUDY BEFORE RENEWAL CAN BE GRANTED. IN 02 THIS COST US OVER 5000 DLLS. THEN YOU HAVE AN ANNUAL FEE WHICH IS NOT CHEAP. DEPENDING ON YOU TYPE OF CONCESSION YOU PAY A DIFFERENT SCALE.

MUNOZ SAYS HE HAS OWNED BUENAVENTURA SINCE 1971. THAT MAKES HIM 18 WHEN HE BOUGHT THE PLACE!?!

We stayed once at the Buenaventura many years ago and liked the location. So in 2005 when we had our small trailer, we thought we would camp in front.

The women in the hotel told us no problem and it would be free. Then they told us that the people in the restuarant next door might come over and either try to tell us to leave or want us to pay THEM. They told us to just ignore them. There was no fee of any kind being charged by the hotel at that time.

Since we realized that there was obviously a dispute going one, we chose leave and camp elsewhere.

As said before, it seems like there are lots of versions to this entire story. I certainly hope that it is resolved without anyone being hurt unjustly.

But it certainly won't be solved on a forum.

Diane

[Edited on 4-19-2009 by jdtrotter]

BajaGringo - 4-19-2009 at 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jdtrotter
As said before, it seems like there are lots of versions to this entire story. I certainly hope that it is resolved without anyone being hurt unjustly.

But it certainly won't be solved on a forum.

Diane

Truer words were never spoken...

:yes:

shari - 4-20-2009 at 08:23 AM

As we often do on Sunday's, we gathered to eat together and the conversations are always lively...usually covering topics like c-ck fighting (which is very very popular here), horse issues (all horses have now been banned from the back yards of houses in town), tinted windows (so and so got caught and fined...another so and so didnt), and of course the latest gossip about poachers and fishing offenses. Of course the turtle issue came up and i asked about how many villagers partake in this delicacy. I was thinking probably 70-80% and was not surprised at the answer that most people here eat it at least once a year! or whenever they can.

PErhaps in TJ, it is not tradition but in the small coastal fishing villages, it certainly WAS....and I say WAS.... because as a result of harsher punishment now...everyone is being more careful and definately the consumption has cut down...and hopefully eliminated soon.

A few years ago in another area I heard of folks having stew and I asked, what about the authorities...the answer was...oh no problem as long as they get a pot of it for their families too...so changes in attitudes and culture will come only with the elimination of corrupt officials.

The most interesting thing is though that turtle takers and eaters are not usually caught by the authorities... but are turned in....generally by people who have an axe to grind or as an act of revenge for some other thing. Seeems it's a very effective way to punish someone or get rid of them for awhile.

wilderone - 4-20-2009 at 08:59 AM

Shari - does the real turtle issue ever come up - i.e., preserving a species? Don't the people appreciate this concept? Do they acknowledge that there aren't many turtles to be seen any longer, and then wonder why? They have a good grasp of the lobster populations and understand why there are controls - why not the turtle? Are they aware of the turtle preservation projects at Mag Bay and elsewhere? Why do they think these projects are necessary?

Thanks for enlightening us all on this statistic. Is it safe to assume then that other small villages do likewise? That everyone will take a turtle at least once a year if they can get away with it?

DianaT - 4-20-2009 at 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari

A few years ago in another area I heard of folks having stew and I asked, what about the authorities...the answer was...oh no problem as long as they get a pot of it for their families too...so changes in attitudes and culture will come only with the elimination of corrupt officials.

Interesting about the horses---quite a change that I am sure not everyone is happy about. There are quite a few horses in town.

Regarding the corrupt officials, IMHO, it is one of those chicken and egg things. Do things change when the officials quite being corrupt, or do things change when people quit paying the officials off so they can break the law.

Change is difficult for many people. But this is going off topic.

Diane

shari - 4-20-2009 at 09:28 AM

when we talk about conservation issues, most seem to think there are LOTS of turtles around as the fishermen do see them all the time and the fact they arent harvested commercially seems to make them think that if they take just one...well...that wont affect the population much. They just dont really see it as poaching...just one for a family feast...as opposed to poaching for commercial sale purposes which is really frowned upon.

this happened to the berrendo...pronghorn antelope as well which was also a traditional delicacy which is now highly illegal...but there are hardly anymore around now so this has been effectively cut from the diet due to a shortage of animals more than anything.
It's weird as even though people seem sympathetic to conservation issues and understand it...well...turtle stew seem to be just really hard to pass up when offered. but I shall do my best at spreading the word about the plight of the endangered tortugas.

Sharksbaja - 4-20-2009 at 10:41 AM

Amen, and thanks in advance Shari.

ELINVESTIG8R - 4-21-2009 at 05:13 AM

Has this thread lost steam.

All I can say is that I nor anyone else in here knows the truth of what is really going on except for the two parties affected. I can only hope that whichever party is on the right side of the law prevails in their quest and that the guilty party who tortured and slaughtered those turtles are brought to justice.

shari - 4-21-2009 at 08:00 AM

I have been doing alot of thinking about this thread and "frame ups" as well....many times in San roque, people have asked me to warm things up on my stove if it's windy as our place is one of the only casitas with a stove. I wouldn't think to check under the foil...then what if someone who is out to destroy us (jelously is rampant in mexico) did it on purpose and called the authorities????
Well, you could all come and visit me in Cereso in Sta.rosalia where maybe you would buy some of my abalone trinkets so I could buy some Maruchan at the store there.
The creeps who tortured and killed the martyred turtle would be sporting a sh*t eating grin and looking for another poor sucker to put away.

sometimes life just aint fair....but this serves as a big lesson to always check what's in the pot and under your computer...just in case.

DENNIS - 4-21-2009 at 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
....but this serves as a big lesson to always check what's in the pot and under your computer...just in case.

I've been asked by "friends" on more than one occasion to take small packages to the states to be mailed. The parcels are sealed and when I ask the contents, invariably the answer is phamaceuticals among other things. Not the dangerous type but, illegal just the same.
My friends may be ignorant to the law but, I'm the one who would eat it if caught.
"Just say NO."

Cypress - 4-21-2009 at 12:40 PM

Olivia and Marc are the victims of a devious scheme to deprive them of their freedom, their livelihood and their property.

They're good people.

ramuma53 - 4-21-2009 at 04:19 PM

This is Rafael Muñoz Martinez, since a lot of what is said here is always put in doubt, I want to share some verifiable information from reputable sources, sorry it is in Spanish, but I don’t want somebody to say I miss translated:
--------------------------------------
De: Everardo Mariano Melendez <emariano@conanp.gob.mx>
Fecha: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 19:19:42 -0500
Para: Aarón Esliman <aaron@grupotortuguero.org>, Everardo Mariano Melendez <ever1234@hotmail.com>, Ernesto Israel Popoca Arellano <epopoca@conanp.gob.mx>
Asunto: RE: Restaurante sorprendido vendiendo Caguama en Bahia Concepcion, Mulege B.C.S.

Hola Aarón,

Efectivamente fueron detenidas dos personas del sexo femenino, con pruebas evidentes de dos tortugas que preparaban para guiso de caguama, fueron remitidas ante el ministerio público federal por delitos ambientales, la PGR atrajo el caso y hasta lo último que supe fueron procesadas. Se les encontró en el acto y con las evidencias periciales.

En Loreto nos pidieron ayuda para buscar depositarios del producto y le fue turnado el caso a PROFEPA. Me parece que este tipo de revisiones a restaurantes debiese ser con mayor frecuencia y poner una alerta que tanto es culpable quien la captura como quien la consume.

Estamos en contacto!

Saludos.
Ever

Everardo Mariano Meléndez
Encargado del Despacho
Parque Nacional Bahía de Loreto
Tel: (613) 11350477
Paseo Pedro de Ugarte S/N
Col. Misioneros.
Loreto, B.C.S.

-----Mensaje original-----
De: Aarón Esliman [mailto:aaron@grupotortuguero.org]
Enviado el: mié 15/04/2009 17:40
Para: Everardo Mariano Melendez; Everardo Mariano Melendez; Ernesto Israel Popoca Arellano
Asunto: FW: Restaurante sorprendido vendiendo Caguama en Bahia Concepcion, Mulege B.C.S.

Hola Ever, me acaba de llegar esto, sabes algo de este asunto, creo que
sería bueno investigar por allá que apso con esto, se ve bastante feo y me
encantaría poder contestar algo a este cuate. Se los encargo mucho.
Saludos
Aarón
----------------------------
So I am not making it up, and Olivia was caught in fraganti cooking the Sea Turtle stew pot in her restaurant for sale to a lot of people, detained, put in jail and she is free on bail, pending the administrative and criminal sanctions. Also, it makes clear that Mexican reputable Nature Organizations are promoting the checking and pressing for the convictions, not me.

Some of you are right, Olivia or Oliguacamole just lost the little credibility she had here, because she invented something without knowing the Middle Eastern costumes; the true is that I almost always use a glove, because of an industrial accident that happened in one of my business; I am a Civil engineer, but also studied Law and I am an attorney at law, but as I say, I studied law to protect myself from my own attorneys, so it happened to me when saving an employee of mine; I have my hand, so it is also false that I don’t have it or chopped off; it was burned and I can’t control the temperature, so it does not get cold I almost always use the glove but I have the use of it, it is even evident on the photo Olivia shared with you and the Sudcaliforniano and it is becoming clear who try to deceive you.
On the fact that Eddie said that I own my 1000 Has. Lot since 1971 when I was 18 years old, it is only partially true, because I claimed the property at that time, but my private property title was issued in 1988 and a complement on 1992; I bought it from the Federal Government and the validity of it was checked by the Federal Police and a Federal Judge thanks to Olivia and Mark, who denounced me formally of having a falsified title and at this moment the Federal Police and the Federal Judge declared my title lawful; Olivia Know of it because that is the cause why the Ejido La Purisima, dropped their claims against my title and me; also because in my file, they in 1985 ageed to my limits and signed and put their seal in agreement on an official document, so I have no quarrel with the Ejido and if Olivia is part of the Ejido she should have done the same, but she is trying to collect from my American tenants, but that is a legal battle that do not affect me and should not be part of this.
On Federal Zone, there you are in my knowledge sphere, It is very important for you who live near the sea to know what is Federal Zone and what is not: Federal zone according to the law, is a 20 mts. strip of land measured WHEN THE COAST HAS A BEACH AND THE SOLID GROUND BESIDE THE BEACH IS LESS THAN 30 DEGREES; ONLY THERE THE FEDERAL ZONE WILL BE MEASURED; this is very important because if there is no beach there is no Federal Zone and you should not pay for it and this is the law since 1992 by decree; I know that this is not exactly the information the Federal Zone officials want you to know, because what you pay for it, is in some cases 30% of the city income as is in Rosarito Beach; there, I as an expert witness won the cases for Castillos del Mar and others, so it is a tested in court true; they want everybody to believe that the Federal Zone is 20 mts. From the sea, but it is not, since on cleefs there is no Federal Zone, or where the solid ground is more than 30 degrees there is also not a Federal Zone. (If you need details, just write me and I will give you exact details on the law.)
Another very important fact on Federal Zone is that even if you have the Federal Zone concession, you cannot charge for people using it or crossing it, you can only use the consession only for the use authrized; also it is unlawful to sub lease any part of a concession; Federal Zone if public property and no way around it; also you cannot sell alcohol on it or rent houses on it since it would be sub leasing; nobody can charge you for going to the beach, they can rent you an umbrella, but they cannot prevent you from using it. Then you the Wagon Masters here will say “O but you charge” it is true, I charge you for overnight parking your buses on my property, because I have a parking permit but if you go on foot and leave your bus on the highway, nor me, or anybody can prevent you from using the beach, any land owner by law have to allow people to walk to the beach, not by car, walk; you can see that the hotels always leave a narrow passage to the beach, enough to walk but not for vehicles, but in my case I allow free parking on my property during the day and only when you stay overnight I charge them and that because they use the bathroom and the water cost me, since I bring it by truck from Mulege 30 miles north.
Olivia does not have a parking permit because it is forbidden to park or use vehicles on the Federal Zone, you can only park or drive vehicles on the property, out of federal zone and she has not been noticing that I allow her customers to park on my property without paying, but I can legally close her access to the restaurant at any time I want. She even has to ask for my permission to cross my property and I have a letter signed by her, asking for that permission and if she denies it I can show it, it was signed by her in front of a Navy Captain who also signed as witness.
I know that most of what Olivia do is because she don’t know the law and its details and that is why I say that if I disagree with her, she has always been a lady, not a true telling lady but a lady.
Also so you can understand me, the Property tax on my property is $850,000 USD a year and that is way over the $5000 USD they pay and those prices were put there by the lawmakers and that is done to force people to develop the valuable properties, but we will never do it with places like Olivia there that cannot be moved or have a real money obligation according to what they prevent.
On the fact that she got the Federal Concession, I can comment and prove that she paid for that concession with the hotel funds and the payments are in the Hotel accounting books and if she is not the Hotel owner, she took personal advantage of being at one time the Hotel manager, with a power of attorney only (hope she does not denies it because I have a public notary document where she accept that, “she does not own any part of the hotel”). Also just consider, I have a $750,000 USD investment in the hotel, pay taxes on the hotel and the property, while she rent a Federal Zone house without paying any taxes, because it is unlawful to do it, she sells liquor without paying for a federal permit or tax and she uses my property as her parking, because in Federal zone, she has no area, because she use it with buildings, that cannot be there, because in Federal zone you cannot put permanent buildings.

vandenberg - 4-21-2009 at 07:48 PM

Yahooo!!
The plot is thickening (sickening. :biggrin:

Mark & Olivia, your turn.

And Cypress,
Good post. You should write a novella and submit it to Harlequin. You may end up with a winner. :no:

[Edited on 4-22-2009 by vandenberg]

[Edited on 4-22-2009 by vandenberg]

Cypress - 4-21-2009 at 08:08 PM

Thanks vandenberg. :biggrin:

Bajahowodd - 4-21-2009 at 11:30 PM

Geez.

You know first hand they were tortured?

soulpatch - 4-22-2009 at 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ELINVESTI8
Has this thread lost steam.

All I can say is that I nor anyone else in here knows the truth of what is really going on except for the two parties affected. I can only hope that whichever party is on the right side of the law prevails in their quest and that the guilty party who tortured and slaughtered those turtles are brought to justice.

Soulpatch are you trying to provoke me or what.

ELINVESTIG8R - 4-22-2009 at 04:25 AM

I am speaking from a past experience. It was sometime during 1967 or 1968 while I was in San Felipe as a kid working at a restaurant. I happened to walk in the back of the restaurant and saw firsthand a sea turtle being tortured and butchered. The poor thing was on its back alive and being cut from its shell then literally hacked into pieces while still squirming and flailing its legs and head. I actually heard the poor thing screaming. The butcher did not even have the decency to kill it first. It was horrifying. I had nightmares for a long time after that.

No. Just provoking thought.

soulpatch - 4-22-2009 at 08:11 AM

Not everybody tortures what they eat. Some hunters kill ethically and some don't. It seems as if these people have a lot of support out there as decent people and there may have been a killing like any other food source being killed.
I don't know, just thought I'd ask.

Quote:

Originally posted by ELINVESTI8
I am speaking from a past experience. It was sometime during 1967 or 1968 while I was in San Felipe as a kid working at a restaurant. I happened to walk in the back of the restaurant and saw firsthand a sea turtle being tortured and butchered. The poor thing was on its back alive and being cut from its shell then literally hacked into pieces while still squirming and flailing its legs and head. I actually heard the poor thing screaming. The butcher did not even have the decency to kill it first. It was horrifying. I had nightmares for a long time after that.

ELINVESTIG8R - 4-22-2009 at 08:16 AM

No one should infer that I was referring to the people where the turtle soup was found as having tortured and killed the turtles. I only hope those who did are punished.

soulpatch - 4-22-2009 at 08:20 AM

I agree that violators of the law should be punished accordingly.

Skipjack Joe - 4-22-2009 at 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mulegena

It would appear the intent behind this barrage of information by ramuma53 has really little to do with turtles but with his long grievance over the land issue.

Unfortunately it looks like Mr Munoz will be successful in bringing down Olivia and her husband. I don't think the authorities will care what the motivation was behind the Munoz tip off. If Olivia can't convince them that the turtles were planted (and none of us know the truth of the matter) she will probably be prosecuted.

Those are my thoughts. I would be interested to hear other opinions.

As Jesse says, it stinks. There's selective justice here brought on by a person who probably had a turtle steak dinner that same week at a neighbor's house but chose this opportunity to nail his rival. And then has the temerity to show up here for approval. Unbelievable.

OLIGUACOMOLE - 4-22-2009 at 09:48 AM

The reason for the turtle set up….?

For nearly 7 years we have had to deal with this man Rafael Munoz Martinez (ramuma). A bizarre man, and a more bizarre of character.
Munoz (ramuma) it makes no difference to me what you SAY YOU HAVE or what you SAY YOU ARE. What you need to do is to take this evidence and present your proofs to the court. You have had six years to do this. Please allow me to refresh your memory. In August of 2002 we took you to court for unlawful possession of our property. Also for possessing two separate titles for this property which we believe you made up on a computer.

I have lost count on exactly how many times we have had court in La Paz, but it should be near 50 times. I believe Munoz (ramuma) has no intention of finishing court with us because he knows the outcome will not be in his favor. We would not be in court with Munoz (ramubma) if he had any legitimate claim for this property. So if I may suggest to you Munoz (bamuma), take your evidence you possess and present this to the court. Time is of the essence, Do it now.

Our court battle with Munoz (ramuma) is nearing the end or for some has ended. This is the reason I feel we were set up with a turtle. So in order to punish us or get some kind of negotiation we were planted with a turtle. This is NOT the first instance something like this has happened. We have lots of bogus charges and accusations from Munoz (rabuma).

I will give Munoz (bamuma) credit for making Buenaventura what it is now. Contaminating our reputation with lies and half truths (for me a half truth is a lie). Destroying our business and interfering with our daily lives. The BEST THING I can say that you have done since you have shown here at Buenaventura is that you have EXPOSED YOURSELF AS TO WHAT YOU ARE.
Congradulations on a job well done!

El trucko Negra

OLIGUACOMOLE - 4-22-2009 at 09:58 AM

Yesterday evening persons whom reside at Punta Chivato stopped here at Buenaventura. Told me that Munoz"zz employees were arrested at the military checkpoint north of loreto for possessing drugs. They were in a black truck. I have noticed the truck not at the hotel the last few days. Anyone have more info.?

vandenberg - 4-22-2009 at 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OLIGUACOMOLE
Yesterday evening persons whom reside at Punta Chivato stopped here at Buenaventura. Told me that Munoz"zz employees were arrested at the military checkpoint north of loreto for possessing drugs. They were in a black truck. I have noticed the truck not at the hotel the last few days. Anyone have more info.?

Mark/Olivia,
Leave the assumptions and heresaying to your adversary.
It won't strengthen your case and make you look revengeful.

TheColoradoDude - 4-22-2009 at 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by OLIGUACOMOLE
it was for a group of Mexican families from Ensenada

What happened to the families? Is it only illegal to serve and not consume? And if this was a set up, wouldn't someone from one of the families know something?

Cypress - 4-22-2009 at 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TheColoradoDude

Quote:

Originally posted by OLIGUACOMOLE
it was for a group of Mexican families from Ensenada

What happened to the families? Is it only illegal to serve and not consume? And if this was a set up, wouldn't someone from one of the families know something?

Yea, They know what they're told to know.

ramuma53 - 4-22-2009 at 03:09 PM

Good question. From Oliguacamoles's Own words, or Olivia's or Mark own words here, they accepted and said here that they were going to serve the stew to a group of Ensenada families, now the turtle was planted, make up your mind, because you lies are showing up here Olivia.
Ok you made a big mistake, just accept it; you know it will cost you a lot of money, but I don't think more than that, depending on how good they got you and how hard the Nature organizations press to make an example of you, but you know that usually that do not happen, so just tell the true story.
by the way the black hotel's truck is in Loreto at the mechanic, do you want to check, also all my employees are in the hotel if you want to check also.
I also agree that the people who was waiting to eat the turtles should have been prosecuted and Olivia must know who they are since she was making them a really big favor by warming the turtle stew; you will do that free only for people who are very familiar with you so just ask them to come forward and take the heat from you; if you don't know them, it means that it was for sale

Olivia, you are hanging yourself with your own words

Also Mark, you threatened my employees yesterday in Mulege at the tire store with killing them like it will happen to me; how is it that you are very brave only with women, why don you threaten me in my face next time you see me instead of runing like like you always do ???????? many people say you are a nice guy, but nice guys do not threaten to kill people, or they do??? let see you next time and you know you will see me. :mad:

SOAPS

roundtuit - 4-22-2009 at 04:31 PM

How long has GENERAL HOSPITAL been on TV and aren't some of the characters getting pretty OLD !!! Next we have DAYS OF OUR LIVES :lol:

ELINVESTIG8R - 4-22-2009 at 05:06 PM

I can only hope what Rafael has said is not true with respect to Mark making death threats to his employees and Rafael. That would be very unfortunate. Conversely, Rafael if you are not telling the truth that too is just as unfortunate.

Making a death threat is as we all know serious business and should never be said unless you want to go to jail for a long time. Also, making false statements to police about said death threats will also get you thrown in jail. We all know this but it is good to re-look at what can happen to someone if the above happens.

It’s been my experience that true killers don’t go around advertising they are going to kill someone. If they do they are stupid and get caught. It’s the ones who don’t say anything that one needs to worry about. If any of the above is true whether it be death threats or lies about death threats then cooler heads need to prevail. Let the true and correct evidence fall where it falls in court.

FAMILIES AND DEATH THREATS

OLIGUACOMOLE - 4-22-2009 at 07:20 PM

The man who came in to the restaurant said the party for 20+ persons were his family and friends from the another beach. Three seperate women from different families camping on our beach, not part of the 20+ were witness to this man entering the restaurant with the blue covered pot and bringing it into the kitchen. Testimony will be given by these three women as to what they witnessed.

We are fairly busy during these times with adults and children coming and going throughout the day. We are serving drinks, serving food, people are taking showers, etc. We are just trying to provide a service so people can enjoy themselves here on the bay.

As to me making threats to your employees or you, I will call you a liar. I take this very seriously.

Maybe you should just go to court with your problems. I don't care to fight with you! I just want you to go away.

Allegations of Death threats

OLIGUACOMOLE - 4-22-2009 at 08:15 PM

I would like to write more on Munoz'zz comments with me threatening him and his employees. This is totally false and a blatant lie. We have nothing to gain with this tactic. We do not act in this manner. People of Mulege I feel could vouch a character reference on me, Olivia and this subject.

Olivia and I just want to live in peace, eat a fish taco and visit with our friends. We have tried to provide services legally and honest to mexicans and all other tourists. We are not greedy people. Munoz moved into our hotel when we were gone six years ago. It has taken part of the fun out of "eating my fish taco".

I feel Rafael Munoz is a desperate man willing to do anything to win. He will say or write anything that would help change the negative opinion of him, and try and tarnish ours. He has a reputation of claiming other Ejido land in similar manner. He has not had very good success. For some reason we were caught in his sights and targeted. I believe it was because Olivia was divorced female and there were structures here. Whatever the reason it has to be settled in court. Olivia has had this in court for over six years and we are going to win. We have struggled through this and our friends and family have suffered with us. It is not fair, but if one knows how to play the legal system it can be grueling. If the perpetrators can get you to leave they might be able to take possession! This is the game we have had to play. It is important because it could happen to anyone.

We have had to live with abusive Munoz tactics for all these years. This turtle thing is just one more. The only threat we have made is him to challenge this Rafael Munoz in court.

Howard - 4-22-2009 at 08:26 PM

What once was an entertaining thread has become extremely boring and a case of he said she said. All parties will keep flaping there jaws and it will just keep going and going. I think the most honorable person and maybe the most truthfull party will put all this he said she said to rest and settle it in court rather than trying to protect their bravado.

As someone once said "silence speaks volumes". As far as I am concerned, the next person who is one of the parties speaks on this forum is the less honorable person.

It should be interesting who speaks first.

ELINVESTIG8R - 4-22-2009 at 08:54 PM

Rafael, Mark and Olivia...Keep it coming in this forum. You will at least have a place to vent until the court date.

ramuma53 - 4-22-2009 at 10:58 PM

Mark, this is not the first time you do it, only most of the times you do it in a situation where there is your word against some one else and you never were brave enough to try it with me, but several times you have done it to women working in the hotel, only this time you did it in town, in front of another people and in front of the tire store employees who were able to confirm that you went to them while changing a tire; I mention it this time because you did it in public in in front of withness in a demostrabe way.
I know, dog that barg don't bite but what boders me is that this NICE GUY who sells sea turtle, do it only to women while always run when confronted with men; you by experience know that you can not fight with me, you went down at the first blow last time you tried to atack us, Juan also put you down when you atacked the mail man but that is no excuse to now do it exclusively with woman.
I own the place with property titles, I have a Hotel, you have only a concession on a 20 mts strip that belong to public property; you violate the law in several ways, who do you think will go?
I have never even bothered your employees, but you know you do it all the time up to the point of going in to my hotel to tell people that you rent a house cheaper, or you will denie it too Mark?

ramuma53 - 4-22-2009 at 11:01 PM

Sorry, but I have no court date, it is only Olivia Against 4 Americans from who she is trying to take their house; since the Ejdio droped their claims against me, I am not a part of the claims; she was claiming that my titles were false and those have already proved true, so I have no court apointment, I won already; sorry I ca not say the same for the 4 Americans.
yes it may be boring, but this board is 11 pages long with a lot of people saying something

Bajahowodd - 4-22-2009 at 11:57 PM

Bat Guano!

Byron - 4-23-2009 at 06:43 AM

Tear down the fences!

JESSE - 4-23-2009 at 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ramuma53
I won already

It doesn´t seem like it.

ELINVESTIG8R - 4-23-2009 at 09:01 PM

So what is the bottom line Rafael, Mark and Olivia? What does each side want to end the feud between you guys? Please line it out in order of priority.
1.
2.
3.
4.

Also if the cahuama stew was not made by Olivia and Mark then someone did bring it in as they allege. Rafael if you did not do it but know who did bring the cahuama stew as alleged will you do the right thing and make that anonymous call to the federal jurisdiction investigating the incident and let them know who the culprits are?

May you guys resolve this in a peaceful manner.

Marla Daily - 4-24-2009 at 05:03 PM

Off topic: Any thread have more hits than this in such a short time?

DENNIS - 4-24-2009 at 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Marla Daily
Off topic: Any thread have more hits than this in such a short time?

Top 5 most viewed topics:
Tropical Storm John (64870)
The loss of JR, our good friend (51314)
Duane Curtis; Playa Armenta killing - WAS: Crime in Mulege... (38533)
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Henrietta (28642)

Byron - 4-24-2009 at 08:00 PM

When does the next episode of " As Mulege Turns " debut ? Maybe someone should drive down there to make sure there hasn't been a shoot out at the OK corral .

ramuma53 - 4-25-2009 at 10:50 AM

ELINVEST8
1.- Olivia and Mark quit bringing and selling drugs to Buenaventura beach
2.- She and Mark quit acting like gangsters
3.- Let the District Atorney solve all the claims for good or bad, do not brive them.
4.- Quit bothering the Americans about their houses in Agrarian Court.
5.- Just stay in Federal Zone, do not invade my property
6.- One extra sorry DO NOT HARM AMIMALS.

Are those so difficult???? I think they are.

OLIGUACOMOLE - 4-25-2009 at 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ELINVESTI8
So what is the bottom line Rafael, Mark and Olivia? What does each side want to end the feud between you guys? Please line it out in order of priority.
1.
2.
3.
4.

Also if the cahuama stew was not made by Olivia and Mark then someone did bring it in as they allege. Rafael if you did not do it but know who did bring the cahuama stew as alleged will you do the right thing and make that anonymous call to the federal jurisdiction investigating the incident and let them know who the culprits are?

May you guys resolve this in a peaceful manner.

Number One: Finish court in La Paz. Respect what the court awards. We win...Munoz respects us....Munoz wins I respect him.
Number Two: Respect our human rights.
Number Three: Quit charging for the use of our Federal Concession
Number Four: Stop writing lies. Stop bogus Ministeral Publico reports against us. Stop presenting false papers.

comitan - 4-25-2009 at 12:04 PM

When its over,it won't be over because they will then be fighting over the movie rights. THAT'S where the money is.

[Edited on 4-25-2009 by comitan]

ELINVESTIG8R - 4-25-2009 at 12:11 PM

Rafael:

1. What proof do you have that Olivia and Mark are bringing and selling drugs at Buenaventura beach?
2. When you say quit acting like gangsters will you please expound upon that? How are Olivia and Mark acting like gangsters?
3. When you say that Olivia and Mark should let the District Attorney solve the legal claims for or against them and not bribe the DA. Do you have evidence that they have bribed the DA’s office or are about to bribe the DA’s office.
4. Do Olivia and Mark have a legal claim with respect to the Americans regarding their homes in Agrarian Court? Explain your thoughts.
5. When you say to Olivia and Mark to stay in the Federal Zone and not invade your property. How do they invade your property?
6. To your personal knowledge with your own eyes have you ever seen either Olivia or Mark harm any animals?

Olivia and Mark:

1. What is pending in court in La Paz?
2. When you say respect human rights please be a little more specific. Which human rights is Rafael guilty of violating?
3. What proof/evidence do you have to show that Rafael is charging for the use of your Federal Concession?
4. What lies is Rafael writing about you?
5. Please expound on your assertion that Rafael is filing fictitious Ministerial Publico reports against you. What were they?
6. Which false paper do you refer to?

bajabillybob - 4-26-2009 at 06:12 AM

The only positive story that I see here is that both of these parties are so busy screwing each other that they can not screw any gringos in the meantime.
I say keep at each other as it is entertaining as hell.

Bill

ramuma53 - 4-27-2009 at 12:30 AM

ELINVEST8
1.- We have seen the boats unloadings at 3 AM and I mean law enforcement officers and me but soon she will se about that.
2.- Friday, Mark did not let Mr. Thad Braxton put his boat in the water because he was going to give two mexicans a ride, he threatend my life and his with 2 more witnesses and the formal complain will be presented to the district attorney tomorrow, Wednesday he threatened 2 of my employees in Mulege in front of other people; is that acting as a gangster enough.
3.- Because we have 8 formal complains against Olivia and Mark for robery, robery with violence, lying to judicial authorities, damages and she has one from Jimmy Rusell for wounds with intent to kill and the complains have been lost several times, never acte upon or sent to the judge with obvious flaws to be rejected; the Estate District attorney is under invesigation at this time for those flaws that are allowing Olivia and Mark to be free.
4.- The houses are in my property and at this time my prpperty is beyond doubt thanks to her, not in Federal Zone.
5.- She on a daily basis, croses over my property with her verhicles, use my property and do not attend warnings no to use my property; if you try to stop her, she will attack you with violence, that is why she have so many formal complains; she try to build a house over my property and there is a formal complain for that too, we stoped them.
6.- Yes, Mark killed a pig on a very sadistic way with a knife, the pig was like a pet for everybody, he killed one of our dogs ith a shovel in front of several people and there are morebut not to my personal experience.

1.- Her claim for rent on American people living IN MY PROPERTY, when the Ejido dropped its claims because it was proved that my property is NOT EJIDO LAND and Olivia's contract is one mile north of my property.
4.0 you can see El Sudcaliforniano, she has published 8 columns first page 7 times lies against me that were proved false by the authorities.
6.- The property title was proved true by the Federal Police and the federal judge, if it had not hapened that way, I would be in jail at this time, there is no open investigation against me for that, all the charges proved false; she has acused me of taking the property from her but her charges have been dropped because I have proved to be the legal owner while she only has a private contract with the ejido for a piece of land 1 mile north of mine.

OLIGUACOMOLE - 4-27-2009 at 06:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ramuma53
ELINVEST8
1.- We have seen the boats unloadings at 3 AM and I mean law enforcement officers and me but soon she will se about that.
2.- Friday, Mark did not let Mr. Thad Braxton put his boat in the water because he was going to give two mexicans a ride, he threatend my life and his with 2 more witnesses and the formal complain will be presented to the district attorney tomorrow, Wednesday he threatened 2 of my employees in Mulege in front of other people; is that acting as a gangster enough.
3.- Because we have 8 formal complains against Olivia and Mark for robery, robery with violence, lying to judicial authorities, damages and she has one from Jimmy Rusell for wounds with intent to kill and the complains have been lost several times, never acte upon or sent to the judge with obvious flaws to be rejected; the Estate District attorney is under invesigation at this time for those flaws that are allowing Olivia and Mark to be free.
4.- The houses are in my property and at this time my prpperty is beyond doubt thanks to her, not in Federal Zone.
5.- She on a daily basis, croses over my property with her verhicles, use my property and do not attend warnings no to use my property; if you try to stop her, she will attack you with violence, that is why she have so many formal complains; she try to build a house over my property and there is a formal complain for that too, we stoped them.
6.- Yes, Mark killed a pig on a very sadistic way with a knife, the pig was like a pet for everybody, he killed one of our dogs ith a shovel in front of several people and there are morebut not to my personal experience.

1.- Her claim for rent on American people living IN MY PROPERTY, when the Ejido dropped its claims because it was proved that my property is NOT EJIDO LAND and Olivia's contract is one mile north of my property.
4.0 you can see El Sudcaliforniano, she has published 8 columns first page 7 times lies against me that were proved false by the authorities.
6.- The property title was proved true by the Federal Police and the federal judge, if it had not hapened that way, I would be in jail at this time, there is no open investigation against me for that, all the charges proved false; she has acused me of taking the property from her but her charges have been dropped because I have proved to be the legal owner while she only has a private contract with the ejido for a piece of land 1 mile north of mine.

1. Total lie!
2. I never threatened anyones life. I did ask two men that worked for Munoz who fenced off our store to please leave. I asked them for respect and they agreed.
3. All complaints are from Munoz. The latest last friday was for destruction of Mexican homes on Requeson. Munoz in the black truck and employees went to Playa Requeson and Playa La Perla with sledge hammers and destroyed these structures. Then Munoz goes to the Ministeral Publico and reports that Olivia and Mark did this. Total lie!
4. Munoz has no property. Shows two false titles confirmed by Mexico City. Numers exist but not for here. One number 51829 is for Veracruz, the other 432949 is for Puebla.
5. Total lie.
6. Total lie.

1. Yes, we have all in court. Munoz you forgot to mention that you are included in these cases.
4.0 If you want to believe this you can.It is just public opinion.
6. Total lie.

We are not willing to go on like this. How do you respond to one lie after another? We are nearing the end of our court battle with this situation. We feel confident about our situation. Apparently Rafael Munoz Martinez does not.
If Rafael Munoz is close to being right with his claims....all the power to him. He should take all of his evidence and present it in the court of law, not false public allegations. I ask of Rafael Munoz to leave us alone and respect the courts decisions of this matter.

ELINVESTIG8R - 4-27-2009 at 11:31 AM

I do not make any judgments against any of you Rafael, Olivia Mark because I do not know you nor do I know who is telling the truth. It is evident that this bad blood between you guys goes back a longtime. I sincerely hope that whichever of you are in the right prevails over the one who is not. If in fact lives were threatened as alleged and “truthful witnesses” heard them being made then it should be reported to the proper authorities. That is one act that cannot be tolerated. I want to reiterate that I sincerely hope the just person in these matters are successful in their quest for justice and can only hope that once a judgment is rendered the other respects it as law.

mtgoat666 - 4-27-2009 at 12:05 PM

Rafael, Olivia, Mark,
Life is too short to spend your time all tied up in knots over money and property. Y'all need to get a mediator and resolve the issues, and get on with life.
You guys are all certifiably nuts to be arguing this via an internet forum.

[Edited on 4-27-2009 by mtgoat666]

Skipjack Joe - 4-27-2009 at 02:44 PM

What about the turtles?

I guess they're on the back burner for now.

<groan>

baitcast - 4-27-2009 at 02:57 PM

:lol:

Ya what about the turtles.
Rob

roundtuit - 4-27-2009 at 03:16 PM

What Turtles??? Oh yea that is what this thread was about I think, maybe not who knows !!! Mcoys and who ??? AS The World Turns So Do The Days Of Our Lives
:?:

24baja - 4-27-2009 at 03:53 PM

Okay.....Stop already!

Bajajack - 4-27-2009 at 04:01 PM

From the way it sounds the Greed factor has gotten to all involved and probably all are equally guilty. :rolleyes:

flyfishinPam - 4-27-2009 at 06:56 PM

boring

ramuma53 - 4-27-2009 at 11:54 PM

You are certainly right, those acts are being denounced to the proper authorities, but there the problem arises, she buy them.
Today she invaded my property again, she is trying to build with heavy equipment over Federal one even if that is forbiden by law, I will send you soon photos of these acts.
My friends, the poor turtles are being forgoten by the authorities but not for long since I know paper is flying from one office to the other, soon those will reach Olivia and maybe the turtles will be vindicated and their sacrifice will serve to save some others.
Well from now on I will just report new acts of vandalism by Olivia with proff.
Why I do it? why do you think?, if she can commit any crime and not be prosecuted, the only defense is making it public, don't you agree?
it is simple.

ramuma53 - 4-27-2009 at 11:58 PM

will any of you ask Mark an American how is it possible that he can deny the use of a ramp in a federal public property to a couple of Mexicans?
I told you, just let them talk and they will hang themselves.
What do you think you will feel if a Mexican denied the use of an American beach to Americans? just think.

JESSE - 4-28-2009 at 12:42 AM

OK, so we have and American lady who was married to a Mexican guy who suddenly became rich and bought a lot of land. Then the Mexican guy is gone and the Mexican lady marries an American guy. Now we have a new Mexican guy obviously fighting hard to get the property, wich he wouldnt be fighting for if he didnt really feel he own at least a part of it.

Translation:

Lets stay the hell out of this!!!

Sharksbaja - 4-28-2009 at 01:26 AM

"What do you think you will feel if a Mexican denied the use of an American beach to Americans? just think."

So Jesse is wrong? They(Mark & Olivia) are Americans? I'm confused.

fishbuck - 4-28-2009 at 01:36 AM

I'll bet ther is at least 1 rico mexicano here Mexifornia with a "private" beach. There sure is plenty of americanos that do!
And that's illegal also.

BajaGringo - 4-28-2009 at 08:28 AM

It is no different in the USA, Mexico or anywhere else in the world for that matter. He who has the dough makes his own rules...

Ramp

OLIGUACOMOLE - 4-28-2009 at 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ramuma53
will any of you ask Mark an American how is it possible that he can deny the use of a ramp in a federal public property to a couple of Mexicans?
I told you, just let them talk and they will hang themselves.
What do you think you will feel if a Mexican denied the use of an American beach to Americans? just think.

Anyone can launch on the beach. We pay a concession for the boat ramp.
These two Mexican guys were not treated badly by me. We talked and I asked for their respect please. They did or do work for Munoz. They fenced barbed wire around our place. At the time we asked them to please don't do this. They did anyway saying the guy with the black hand had ordered them to put the barbed wire. We prefer for them to keep their distance until this is over. Thad was a witness.

I feel the fence was a ploy for us to try and take down.

Munoz you seem to be very desperate person. Don't get mad, take it to court.

24baja - 4-28-2009 at 09:53 AM

wow! who needs TV soap operas! Just read this thread. I'm done.

Pescador - 4-28-2009 at 10:34 AM

In mexico, if you have a concession, and then build a ramp on that concession, then you have the right to control that ramp either through charging or permitting use. If the concession dies, or terminates, then the ramp is federal property and would be a free use ramp until such time as someone took out another concession.

[Edited on 4-28-2009 by Pescador]

toneart - 4-28-2009 at 11:13 AM

I have not commented on this topic because I have no way of knowing the real truth. So, my opinion doesn't matter.

Diver - 4-28-2009 at 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by toneart
I have not commented on this topic because I have no way of knowing the real truth. So, my opinion doesn't matter.

Finally somethiing I can agree with in this thread ! :lol:

ramuma53 - 4-28-2009 at 07:22 PM

Sorry Pescador, but to talk you have to know.
A concession is the right to DO the activity being allowed by it, but it does not mean you own the place; if you build a ramp in Federal Zone, you are building on Public property and the instant you build it, it belongs to Public Property and nobody can charge for the use of public property or deny the use of public property. Also there can be several different concessions for different people on the same area, for different uses. The ignorance of the law is what makes Olivia make so many mistakes, but it is as easy as to just read the concession papers.
Today those guys not allowed to use the ramp, talked to the Federal Zone and Mulege City officials, they asked them to make a formal complaint against the American, who did, that because it is a Federal Offense, a city violation and a Federal Zone violation; the City major will watch that the District attorney do fallow the law in this case because there have been too many incidents on that restaurant El Zargazo where the law was not applied.
The Federal Zone officials also said that Olivia came to them to try to force me to tear down my perimeter fence, but they denied to act because I have proved my property rights beyond any doubt and confirmed that it is unlawful to deny the use of the ramp to any person, since Olivia and Mark only have the right to use it, also said that the ramp is not on Federal Zone, it is in Marine Zone that is National Property, Federal Zone is the strip that start where the high tide water ends and the beach start, where the water at high tide start, is Marine Zone not Federal Zone and absolutely nobody can prohibit the access to a Marine Zone.
Also Mark (American) and Olivia (Mexican) are lying about not charging or pretending not to charge for people having lunch at the beach, they continually try but are not allowed by us, at least in front of my hotel, we have stopped them hundreds of times, specially Mark and think how a Mexican National feel when an American come and talk to him in English and try to charge him for the use of the beach or out with the police, he had a lot of problems with people, but he is good at intimidating people, specially women, those are his specialty.

ramuma53 - 4-28-2009 at 07:46 PM

Mark, why dont you take me to court to make me tear down my fence? or why don't you complain in criminal court for me putting it up?
O but you did try it, but were turned away because you have no right to any land and I have demostrated that I own the place; wel keep trying.
I put the perimeter fence around my property because it is my right to do so and you weren't able to do anything against it, because you are not the owners of anything.
At this time you only have the right to use the Federal Zone to sell food but ONLY in movable structures, in other words in a movable cart, not in permanent buildings, that is against the law because you deny the right to use it to other persons, just read your concession.
I know you were bribing the Federal Zone guys, but new and honest are coming from Mexico City to see if you are using the Federal Zone in the way you are allowed to, and do you know why they are comming, because your newspaper articles :lol:

ramuma53 - 4-28-2009 at 07:54 PM

For those that remember the Turtles, Mexico City District Attorney asked today for the Loreto District Attorney to officially inform about the people who were caught in the act of commiting a federal crime, where are they in jail,? what fines were applied? and to ask for a more detailed inspection of the crime site that must at this time, be closed, because it was a crime site.
I would like to see how the Public attorney explain to his superiors that he allowed Olivia to walk on bail after commiting a heavy crime (jail penalty of 6 or more years, this one is 12).
For those who will ask who asked for the new action, the Nature groups did it and the Fisheries department also.
This is just begining. The turtles claim revenge.

[Edited on 4-29-2009 by ramuma53]

vandenberg - 4-28-2009 at 08:35 PM

Video at 11 :no:

fishbuck - 4-28-2009 at 08:59 PM

Ya know, I feel bad for the poor turtle. But I must say that I don't think it's worth ruining a ladies life for.
I like turtles. I'm always facinated when I'm out fishing and see one. But there is a huge difference between a human and a turtle.
I don't have a clue how that turtle got into a pot and a soup bowl. But I don't think Olivia would hurt a turtle.
I don't know any of these people. "I don't have a dog in this fight".
I would love to see this sad episode end.

Al G - 4-28-2009 at 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by Marla Daily
Off topic: Any thread have more hits than this in such a short time?

Top 5 most replied to topics:
What constitutes hijacking a thread? (1020)
Tropical Storm John (558)
Norbert (362)
loreto bay, again (360)
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Participation tells a another story...1020 posts says we had fun.

JESSE - 4-29-2009 at 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ramuma53
I would like to see how the Public attorney explain to his superiors that he allowed Olivia to walk on bail after commiting a heavy crime (jail penalty of 6 or more years, this one is 12).

Thats the fastest conviction ever in the Mexican judicial system. :lol:

Lauriboats - 4-29-2009 at 06:13 AM

Olivia and Mark, :no:

So sorry to read about all of this garbage. Remember that good things happen to good people and like everything else you have gone through this will all get sorted out in the end. I Just wanted to let you know that I support you 100%, hang in there my friends.

Alan - 4-29-2009 at 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ramuma53
Sorry Pescador, but to talk you have to know.
A concession is the right to DO the activity being allowed by it, but it does not mean you own the place; if you build a ramp in Federal Zone, you are building on Public property and the instant you build it, it belongs to Public Property and nobody can charge for the use of public property or deny the use of public property.

Sorry ramuma, I'm with Pescador on this one. Let me know when you plan to launch your boat. I'd love to just watch you try to explain your "rights" to Guillermo (BoLA) or at any of the marinas in La Paz or CSL. That entertainment would even be better than this thread! :lol:

ramuma53 - 4-29-2009 at 10:31 AM

Alan
Then you found a general problem that need to be corrected, one thing is what people do and other what the law says and we should do what the law says not what people do wrong.
Also there is a big diference between charging for services rendered and other control and forbid the use of public property to any person; is like if a bus driver just because he don't like you could forbid you boarding that bus.
The law says that public property is for public use and not concesionable; when there is a public option you can build a private marina and you can charge for the marina services, the actual act of puting a boat in the water by your own means must not be charged.
Of course we know that in a lot of places where there are a lot of marinas, people control the access to the property and that way they control the access to the marina, but you have to own the land and build the marina; here we are talking about a federal concession to be used as movable sales point, not with fixed structures only and even if you are allowed to use it that way, you can not forbid the use of public property.
Mayve if you know the law you can defend yourself when those guys charge you for something they should not.
Another fact is that in private marinas, the Federal Zone is only 3 mts. and those 3 mts. are public property and should have public access.

ramuma53 - 4-29-2009 at 10:44 AM

I see here an almost general state of mind that you accept in Mexico for things to be wrong and continue to be wrong, but you actually don't like it and criticize Mexico for the wrong things beng sarcastic about it.
In other words, you don't like it but you accept it and even want the status Quo.
Sorry my friends but Mexico is changing because people want it to be the right way and require actions to correct things not acceptance.
The way we should act is in the law because that is the accepted way and if something is not done acording to that and you don't like the law, just take it to your lawmaker and see if a lot of people feel like you.
Now two turtles being cooked is not grave enough to pay pealties because it is an old lady who breaks the law; well, it is easy, just don't break the law if you can not face the music.
I know that justice in Mexico is selective and slow but we want to change that or not; are you happy this way?

Cypress - 4-29-2009 at 10:57 AM

Yea, How do you go about using the launch ramp at Escondido?

ramuma53 - 4-29-2009 at 11:07 AM

I just checked on the mechanics that Private Marinas use to charge, while being inside the law.
Since they OWN the private property surrounding the marina, they have the right to control the vehicles access, the law ask for public access to Federal Zones, but only on foot not in a vehicle, so they can charge you for crossing the private property with the vehicle, not for the actual act of puting th boat in the water, but for the vehicle access through private property.
If you dont OWN the land surrounding the federal zone you do not have that option.
The unchanging facts is that you can not charge or prevent anybody from using Federal Zone, because it is Public Property. You have a concession and concession means that you are allowed to use it, not to prevent other people from using public property.
So in this case I can charge for crossing my private property in a vehicle but they can not charge for putting the boat in the water.
As you know there are taxes involved, just ask any body to give you a legal receipt for putting the boat in the water, they wont do it, they will charge you for using private property with a vehicle.
Olivia of course never give a legal receipt and that is tax evation.

Cypress - 4-29-2009 at 11:30 AM

I see. It's an easement issue. Can the public use the launch site? If not, who's blocking it? Why?

rob - 4-29-2009 at 06:52 PM

"The unchanging facts is that you can not charge or prevent anybody from using Federal Zone, because it is Public Property. You have a concession and concession means that you are allowed to use it, not to prevent other people from using public property."

If this were true, there would be no point whatever in obtaining a ZFMT concession - it is nonsense.

ramuma53 - 4-29-2009 at 08:06 PM

Sorry, but if you have no Federal Zone Concession, you would not be able to use the federal zone to sell anything on it; this way she can sell food, not alcohol as she do illegally because she has no permit for that, but she can sell food and rent umbrellas or tables or chairs, that is all that her concession allows her to do; she cannot build anything on it and I mean anything that she cannot move every day out with her when she go out of public property.
Also this is not for believing or not, those are legal public matter issues, just ask any Mexican attorney near you; laws are not for people who believe in them, are for everybody.
Just go in front of any hotel in Cabos and see that they do not prevent you from using the beach even if they have the concession; they only have movable structures on it; that is why Olivia is getting in to so much problems, she is acting as if she owned something, she is not.
There are several types of Federal Zone concessions, general or for embellishment purposes, in other words just to have it as a public garden in front of your house. Olivia has a General and restaurant, that means that she can sell anything legal on the beach using movable structures; she does not own anyhing there, she is just allowed to sell things in federal zone, that is it.
And of course she can not sell turtle stew or drugs as she is doing now.

[Edited on 4-30-2009 by ramuma53]

DENNIS - 4-29-2009 at 08:08 PM

gosh darn...........don't you have a job or something else to do?

ramuma53 - 4-29-2009 at 08:12 PM

Why are you reading it, don't you have a job either?. :?:

No, I just review the post from time to time and try to answer the questions; also, everybody hold against me that I don't come in and comment very often, so here I am. :cool:

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