BajaNomad - Arizonas new Imigration Bill(This has turned into a Rat Hole)

Arizonas new Imigration Bill(This has turned into a Rat Hole)

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MrBillM - 4-28-2010 at 03:56 PM

Ya Gotta love a State where the Governor whips out his gun while jogging and plugs a Coyote.

Bajahowodd - 4-28-2010 at 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
The Urban Institute, a DC based think tank estimates that there are currently 75,000 Canadian illegals in the US. That obviously pales by comparison to the estimated 6.5 million Mexicans. However, think anyone is going to stop a Canadian to ask for papers?

Half of them are in Quartsite, AZ for 4 months of the year. :lol:

If you read the bill you would know that the bill does not allow stopping to ask for papers.

The problem of illegal Canadians is one that i'm sure the present administration will look into after they address Cap and Trade, fine tuning the taxes on Tanning Salons, and possibly the VAT.

Ken

Anyone else see the humor in an administration headed by a Black president, installing taxes on Tanning Salons? I mean who doesn't go into a tanning booth? But I digress...........

Geez. What does that say for Canadians? :lol:

And I do take exception to your comment that the bill does not allow for stopping people to ask for papers for two reasons. First, there is an implied consent to do it. Second, it allows the citizens to sue the police department for not doing same.

As for the tanning salons, it's more like irony.

That said, it's become apparent that considering all the good folks who have posted on this thread, the outcome of the law being implemented, at least from personal perspective, will probably not be determined until it becomes law.

Ultimately, within the next decade, with baby-boomers retiring or dying, it is forecast that the US will experience a shortage of workers that will count in the tens of millions. Mexico has a much younger population and will undoubtedly become a resource for the US. It is my personal belief, and y'all are welcome to condemn it, but, in the short term, the kerfuffle that's going on right now about securing the border and ridding these United States of illegal Mexicans will in short order, be looked upon as a head-scratching phenomenon in a few years. Mexican workers will probably become a premium.

Yeah. I know about law and order, but history has a way of making sense or nonsense about what we mere mortals do.

[Edited on 4-28-2010 by Bajahowodd]

Bajahowodd - 4-28-2010 at 04:11 PM

Michelle Malkin strikes me as someone who is not an illegal alien, but rather just an alien. But, one who has mastered the finer points of debate and rhetoric. Sorry if I offend anyone, but she and her ilk such as Glen Beck and the skinny blonde who I refuse to utter her name (initials AC), are trafficking in garbage for profit.

Barry A. - 4-28-2010 at 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajahowodd
Michelle Malkin strikes me as someone who is not an illegal alien, but rather just an alien. But, one who has mastered the finer points of debate and rhetoric. Sorry if I offend anyone, but she and her ilk such as Glen Beck and the skinny blonde who I refuse to utter her name (initials AC), are trafficking in garbage for profit.

So, tell me, how did these pretty women with opinions get into the conversation? :lol:

Barry

Skeet/Loreto - 4-28-2010 at 04:42 PM

Cypress: Yes she is trying to get some Coverage. But Cypress, here in Texas we are known for a lot of good qualities such as Common Sense.

Did you ever stop to think about Why have the "Teas Mesican Natives" been so successful here?? Why , after the Alamo did they do so good in building this Great State? as opposed to the Native Americans??

What do you think DIanT Why? Genes, Intellgence, Family Background.

A good many of my Mexicano Friends here are embarrassed by the actions of a few Idiots in Arizona. One of the socalled Activist here is a Friend of mine. He thinks the Criminal element should be dealt with first., then the workers given passes and after working and learning English given their Citizenship.

Texas is Proud of its Mexican heritage. Sure there is still some "Biogted Baptists" but they are beggnng to realize the value of good workers.
Most end uo making good citizens,

Guess there are too many Liberals in and around Phoenis that just don't have any Sense. Period!

Bajahowodd - 4-28-2010 at 05:03 PM

Actually, Barry, it's a shame that it happened. Blame it on TV. Beautiful people are used to sell products and ideas. Although I grew up in New York, participated in anti-Vietnam rallies, and marched in the South for civil rights, having been water-hosed by police, I get the distinct sense that you and I have a whole lotta of common beliefs.

capt. mike - 4-28-2010 at 05:53 PM

wow you should see all the mexicans on the news who did the legal route and are peeed off about the illegals sneaking in here.
it is amazing. if you are not from here you are clueless about what's really going on.

Howodd - you are entertaining to jab with but you couldn't carry Malkin's briefcase... :lol:

rts551 - 4-28-2010 at 06:48 PM

Give the whole story... tell them about all the other demonstrators Mike Cracker... and I am from here.. even if it is embarrasing.

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
wow you should see all the mexicans on the news who did the legal route and are peeed off about the illegals sneaking in here.
it is amazing. if you are not from here you are clueless about what's really going on.

Howodd - you are entertaining to jab with but you couldn't carry Malkin's briefcase... :lol:

BMG - 4-28-2010 at 06:48 PM

I have just read SB 1070 again. I do not wish to be labeled a N-zi, hate monger, bigot or racist so please tell me my where my logic is faulty. What am I missing when I read the bill?

Please tell me where in the bill:

it authorizes "any cop can pull me over for no reason except my race"?
is the "hidden racism of this law"?
it legalizes profiling, "most retarded, profiling law on the books"?
you found "Human Rights Abuse"?

oldlady - 4-28-2010 at 07:26 PM

Page 18.

desertcpl - 4-28-2010 at 07:38 PM

well done skeet, I agree

Barry A. - 4-28-2010 at 08:14 PM

My copy does not appear to have a "page 18"--------any suggestions?

Barry

capt. mike - 4-28-2010 at 08:33 PM

Give the whole story... tell them about all the other demonstrators Mike Cracker... and I am from here.. even if it is embarrasing.

why? the other demonstrators are anarchists supporting lawlessness.

and - i like triscuts and ritz. :coolup:

DENNIS - 4-28-2010 at 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
My copy does not appear to have a "page 18"--------any suggestions?

Barry

I think that's the point. :lol:

DianaT - 4-28-2010 at 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BMG
I have just read SB 1070 again. I do not wish to be labeled a N-zi, hate monger, bigot or racist so please tell me my where my logic is faulty. What am I missing when I read the bill?

Please tell me where in the bill:

it authorizes "any cop can pull me over for no reason except my race"?
is the "hidden racism of this law"?
it legalizes profiling, "most retarded, profiling law on the books"?
you found "Human Rights Abuse"?

Please---

B. For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation.

notice the words lawful contact and reasonable suspicion---even the idiot racist governor who now says she is directed by god, could not give one example of reasonable suspicion---said that was up to other people.

Enjoyed listening to the Sheriff from Pima County tonight---not only did he agree that the law is racist, probably unConstitutional as a violation of rights, but the law gives the right to any citizen to sue the police departments if they do not think they are doing a good enough job following this law----

Again, it will be open season on committing crimes against these people as they will no longer seek the police assistance---but I doubt any of you care about that because they are illegal, so they get what they deserve.

I congratulate the officials in a number of areas of Arizona who are going to be the first to file the law suits.

Ironic that the same people who support this law are the same people who support the politicians who will stop any rational immigration reform because they are too busy protecting their corporate friends and their need for cheap labor.

Papers Please---but only for one group of people----

An Interesting Riddle ?

MrBillM - 4-28-2010 at 09:45 PM

It should be fairly obvious (even to Retarded Liberals) that Riddle's "Intent" is simply to stir up constituent interest since she couldn't actually introduce any proposed legislation until January.

NOVEMBER is the purpose behind HER comments AND Arizona's actions.

BMG - 4-28-2010 at 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

B. For any lawful contact made by a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of this state or a law enforcement official or a law enforcement agency of a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state where reasonable suspicion exists that the person is an alien who is unlawfully present in the United States, a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person, except if the determination may hinder or obstruct an investigation.

notice the words lawful contact and reasonable suspicion---even the idiot racist governor who now says she is directed by god, could not give one example of reasonable suspicion---said that was up to other people.

Diane,

I originally thought the terms were vague and open to interpretation. I decided to ask some friends in both the legal and law enforcement professions. I did make a post earlier:

Quote:

"Lawful contact" - originally I believed that this meant any contact between a law enforcement officer and a private citizen. I have now found out that 'lawful contact' requires that the officer be in contact with a person when that person has violated a law or there is reasonable suspicion that a law has been violated.

"Reasonable suspicion" - is a legal standard recognized in all federal, state and local law. If an officer has reasonable suspicion (as defined by the U.S. Supreme Court), he/she may detain a person and require the person to identify themselves. Some states require printed identification. So far, the Supreme Court has not ruled on the legality of requiring a U.S. citizen to show proof of identity. The new AZ law will require such written proof.

Both of these phrases have legal meanings and have been upheld in the U.S. Supreme Court in many cases.

I can think of some instances that would probably pass the legal requirement of 'reasonable suspicion'.

When, on the approach of a law enforcement officer, a person or group of people flee for unknown reasons. Even though no laws are known to be violated, the police can and do apprehend the people. Once the people are in custody and cannot produce valid identification such as a driver's license, state I.D. card, or other form of I.D.. there is now reasonable suspicion to believe that the people are in the country illegally.

When a person is being questioned for an otherwise lawful reason (i.e. a witness) and can't say where they live and don't know their own phone number.

When a person is stopped for a traffic violation it is legally required for the driver to be in possession of a valid driver's license. If the driver does not have a license that may constitute reasonable suspicion that the driver may be illegal alien.

amirravon - 4-28-2010 at 11:46 PM

[Edited on 4-30-2010 by amirravon]

Mexicorn - 4-28-2010 at 11:49 PM

To understand how to tell if someone is not a US Citizen please refer to my prior post. It was sent to me ON THE SLY from a Deputy at Maricopa County SO.
Please be careful since it is really for Law Enforcement Officers only!
You didn't hear it from me-
El Mexicorn

amirravon - 4-29-2010 at 12:38 AM

Quote:

ARIZONA STATE SENATE Forty-ninth Legislature, Second Regular Session FACT SHEET FOR S.B. 1070

Unlawful Transporting

22. Specifies that it is unlawful for a person to do or attempt to do the following if the person knows or recklessly disregards the fact that the alien has come to, has entered or remains in the U.S. in violation of law:

a) transport or move an alien in Arizona in a means of transportation;

b) conceal, harbor or shield an alien from detection in any place in Arizona, including any building or means of transportation.

Do I need to ask for a green card / passport if I give a ride to somebody ?

[Edited on 4-29-2010 by amirravon]

oldlady - 4-29-2010 at 05:06 AM

Re-read the beginning paragraph, please.

yellowtail67 - 4-29-2010 at 06:33 AM

Hmmm.
Again, like I stated earlier, if EMPLOYERS had serious fines for hiring illegal aliens maybe there would not be so many coming into the states!
To read even part of this thread with the BS mud slinging, finger pointing, accusatory horse$h!t it's a wonder society is becoming more volatile. We are unable to carry on a civil dialogue on this thread alone!
Sadly, this is a MEXICO thread WEBSITE, if YOU despise MEXICANS so much why do YOU travel to Baja or MEXICO?!? Seems like the highest form of hypocrisy! :fire:

capt. mike - 4-29-2010 at 06:43 AM

"it's a wonder society is becoming more volatile."

did you mean.... it's NO wonder that... :light:

Despise mexicans? hardly the case my friend. i love them and THEIR country. been going south as a LEGAL tourist since 1974 on my own and for years before that with my parents.
and since 1985 i have been active in Mexican charity and medical missions work.
this is not about affinity or disaffinity for a group of people or their ethnicity - it's about upholding a nation's LAWS (ours) and other's having RESPECT for such laws - something illegal aliens don't have or care to see.
oh - and BTW - we in AZ have STRONG laws against illegal hiring too and companies are getting busted all the time.
now - many are getting the message and demanding INS docs before these workers are accepted.

rts551 - 4-29-2010 at 06:56 AM

We are also considering today HB2281 banning ethnic studies or classes that stir up "resentment" in public schools.

What a great State we live in Mike. Did you vote on your republican legislature tax hike yet?

DianaT - 4-29-2010 at 07:13 AM

BMG

Steve,
Suspicion and cause are two very different things---probable cause is tangible and probable suspicion is not. It is ONE of the things the police don't like about this law, except, of course that crazy one down there who thinks he is a little god. I heard him even say that he could tell an illegal just by the shoes he was wearing.

So, now as the bill clearly states, anyone, any citizen can sue a local law enforcement agency if said citizen thinks the law enforcement agency is not doing a good enough job.

Thus you can have Bubba IQ 70 and his Minute Men Militia start counting----then comes the law suit because said agency is not rounding up ENOUGH of those people. That is a really stupid part of the law.

There are already the crazies who are bearing arms---so, now as I keep saying it is open season on the undocumented workers and their families, even if some of them are so called legal. As they should be, the police have been only interested in crimes, not immigration status, but no more----papers please or the police are in trouble.

As the head cop said from Pima County, he is already turns in a number of illegals who are stopped for other reasons and does what he is supposed to do---turn them over to immigration, but this law is racist and definitely has the potential of causing harm to citizens solely because of their heritage.

This law does NOT mirror the federal law---only parts of it do and it is not up to the states to pass the law. Immigration is a federal issue----or would you rather see the states have control of this.

Let's see, Duncan Hunter Jr, following in his father's footsteps wants to round up all the children of undocumented workers, children who were born here and ARE citizens. He wants to take away their citizenship because their soul is not truly American. ----Texas already thinks they have the right to step on federal law----do we need to fight the Civil War all over again?

This law is no different than many laws from the past. Take for example, literacy tests for voting---sounds fair enough, right? And actually it was successful. It did just what the authors of the bill intended--it was not equally administered so it kept people of color from voting---not just African Americans, but also Hispanic Americans. So if this bill is successful, it will accomplish what the author wants---the zenophobe (sp) from Kansas----it will help get rid of people of color and put white man back in total control.

To support this bill is to support the open harassment of one ethnic group. That is supporting human rights abuse.

It is a sad day for America, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights----it is once again a bunch of WASPs feeling their total control and power slipping away and they want it back.

Tis my last word on the subject--- It is sad as there will be no rational reform because the politicians will protect their corporate friends who want the cheap labor, but then the same ones support this law that would only lead to harassment or worse for these human beings.

In the end, I believe the courts will strike the law down, as well they should.

Meanwhile, the bigots on this forum can and will keep justifying their bigotry---not something that was not already known.

Diane

DENNIS - 4-29-2010 at 07:21 AM

Here we have a typical, although long, Nomad thread. Twelve pages of monologue. Everybody just wants to make their point and nobody is listening. Points are being repeated [I did that myself] and still falling on blind eyes in hopes of being considered.
The point in time is approaching when everybody here will feel their redundancies and get bored with their efforts to be acknowledged. They'll realize that that won't happen here.

comitan - 4-29-2010 at 08:11 AM

You mean the Rats Hole turned into a Rats Nest?

Donjulio - 4-29-2010 at 08:22 AM

Why should we be able to enter and leave Mexico anytime we want, be able to pay a small amount of money and legally work here and pretty much do whatever we would like to do and Mexicans don't have that same opportunity with the US? Why do we feel that we are special and entitled?

oldlady - 4-29-2010 at 08:28 AM

Well, yours is a good point, Dennis.

The post prior to yours misses the mark. Both probable cause and suspicion are legally defined. Definitions and criteria embodied within them tested in the courts time and again.

The assertion that "anyone can sue...if said citizen thinks...." is inaccurate and the example given, silly.

Then we come to the quasi legal opinion that the courts will "strike it down". On what basis? Who has, in the context of legal procedure, standing and a case?
Might someone in the future? Possibly. And that possibly is highly contingent on a lot of actions that may or may not take place. They can be conjectured. Conjecture doesn't hold up well in the courts.

Finally, those who have refused to join in the frenzy of condemnation are bigots/racists.

Many of us have made no racial statement one way or the other. This law is consistent with federal law and practice on racial profiling, at the very least no one has pointed to wording the demonstrates a clear inconsistency. Yet already those who would implement the law are labeled as racists, on the basis of conjecture. And those of us who have reservations about such a harsh judgment are tarred with the same brush. It has become a pattern of behavior, destructive, divisive, mean spirited. There is little to no proof of bigotry or racism by the members who have posted here. The slander is obvious.

capt. mike - 4-29-2010 at 08:34 AM

"Did you vote on your republican legislature tax hike yet?"

no. i do not agree with everything our legislature does.
it's a republic, a representative democracy - some dems actually i like. i am not a straight ticket guy - but i do lean towards conservatism.
secular progressives i have little use for.

give me less gummint and fewer taxes as can be reasonably expected.
i do not like Az having to enforce our border which i grant is a necessary duty of the feds and one which we nationally ought to be taxed for. - but since they won't do a GD thing - well we have to act then.

DENNIS - 4-29-2010 at 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Donjulio
Why should we be able to enter and leave Mexico anytime we want, be able to pay a small amount of money and legally work here and pretty much do whatever we would like to do and Mexicans don't have that same opportunity with the US? Why do we feel that we are special and entitled?

You have to direct that question to our federal government. They want them here, but they won't let them in. It makes no sense, but it doesn't deem our laws null and void.
There's no sense in trying to equate the economic differences in Mexico to those of the US if you don't know by now. It's two different worlds. The fact remains, our border has been crossed illegaly. If I were to cross the border between ports of entry, I'd be arrested, probably for a felony.
So...let me ask you why Mexicans can scoot across the border and suffer little consequences when caught and I would have my life ruined for the same offense. It just doesn't seem fair, does it.

DianaT - 4-29-2010 at 08:51 AM

Good point Dennis, time to leave---and oldlady, sorry, but you can defend and justify all you want, but you are among the real bigots around here. You write well, and use the same faulty logic, misrepresentations, and lies of a Glenn Beck----you just need a chalk board. Your writings speak volumes about you being a bigot.

It is time and I hope Doug sees that it is time to close this circular thread. The bigots will just continue to support this harassment law, and those who believe that all human beings deserve to be treated with respect and humanity are speaking to a deaf self-serving audience---the WASPs who think they should have what they think is their country back.

[Edited on 4-29-2010 by DianaT]

comitan - 4-29-2010 at 08:55 AM

Dennis To answer the last part of your question, because big business wants them working for a small salary, and the Government is going to do little about it because Big Business has too much to say in our Government be Democrats or Republican.

tripledigitken - 4-29-2010 at 08:58 AM

It's getting real old you calling those that have a divergent point of view to yours bigots and racists. Obviously you and goat can't have a discussion without resorting to name calling?

You come off as a bitter soul.

Ken

Timo1 - 4-29-2010 at 09:02 AM

Just a question
Could all this be just posturing for Nov. votes and really nothing more as it will likely be shot down by the feds anyway ????
Curious minds want to know

DianaT - 4-29-2010 at 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
It's getting real old you calling those that have a divergent point of view to yours bigots and racists. Obviously you and goat can't have a discussion without resorting to name calling?

You come off as a bitter soul.

Ken

Bitter? Only disgusted with what is happening in this country and the WASPs who support this harassment law---and that is what it is.

Racists is not a viable term as there is no race other than the human race, but bigoted is viable.

Sorry, but I do believe that anyone who supports this bill is a bigot and a bitter WASP who cannot accept the change in ethnicity that is happening in the country.

There are no redeeming qualities to this bill and it is improper for any state to pass such a law-----

So disgusted is more like it---and in this case, I believe the name bigot fits well. Or maybe it would be better if I just called it fearful---fearful of the loss of control-----like Sarah Palin, people want their country back---the country controlled by the WASPs, thus maybe it is the fear that causes the supporters of this bill to be bigots.

This is not a bill like Health Care, or Financial Reform that can be argued on merits, etc., it is a bill aimed to harass one ethnic group. And by definition, bigot is appropriate.

DianaT - 4-29-2010 at 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Timo1
Just a question
Could all this be just posturing for Nov. votes and really nothing more as it will likely be shot down by the feds anyway ????
Curious minds want to know

Yes----except the people who wrote this bill truly want all people of color gone or at least powerless.

But I do believe it will be shot down by the feds, as well it should.

[Edited on 4-29-2010 by DianaT]

oldlady - 4-29-2010 at 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT
Good point Dennis, time to leave---and oldlady, sorry, but you can defend and justify all you want, but you are among the real bigots around here. You write well, and use the same faulty logic, misrepresentations, and lies of a Glenn Beck----you just need a chalk board. Your writings speak volumes about you being a big

[Edited on 4-29-2010 by DianaT]

Prove your accusation.

[Edited on 4-29-2010 by oldlady]

tripledigitken - 4-29-2010 at 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Quote:

Slur count

WASP....3
bigot/bigoted....5
racist....1

Thanks for proving my point, again.

So, in your eyes, by the definitions above I am a bigot.

You are so misguided.

Ken

mtgoat666 - 4-29-2010 at 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Quote:

agree. the AZ law has its roots in xenophobia, bigotry and general fear of change. it is a reaction by white majority to try to stop changing ethnic makeup due to immigration legal and illegal.

the bills author has in the past been involved with white suprmacists, and distributed white supremacist literature to constituents. he did not do a good job of hiding his bigotry. y'all are fools if you can't see it

DianaT - 4-29-2010 at 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Quote:

Slur count

WASP....3
bigot/bigoted....5
racist....1

Thanks for proving my point, again.

So, in your eyes, by the definitions above I am a bigot.

You are so misguided.

Ken

WASP is a definition
Racist is an improper term

And sorry, but I do believe that support of this bill is a bigoted position----it supports harassment of an ethnic group.

Gees,---not opening this thread again----let the justification of this madness called a law continue.

Disgusted, truly disgusted-----

David K - 4-29-2010 at 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Quote:

The Leftist Kool aid tastes good huh Diana?

The era of right wing biggots, 'wasps' in control (have you looked at the president lately) is long, long gone.

The swing way way to the left, and the trashing of American values and culture by those in control NOW is the very reason for what you see in Arizona, New Jersey, Virginia, Massachusetts... and what you will see this November... namely the American people taking their country back from the leftist (that fooled so many and lied their way to power).

You became a liberal after hearing both sides (I hope) as you grew... Why would you deny today's youth from having the same conditions as you had? The teaching of only socialism and none of the facts of history is bound to have an impact once they learn they have been lied to in school.

How long is blaming corporations and calling people who want laws to be enforced 'bigots' and 'N-zis' going to work for you? Corporations create products we all want or need, they hire people, they create wealth... and they pay taxes... taxes is what government uses to do what it does.

Conservatives love America and all the people in America who can manage to play by the rules here... we have little time for rule breakers. We see liberals today as being power hungry, and only interested in gaining votes of special interest groups by promissing things to them at the expense of hurting others... Like taking the side of the law breakers over the citizens here.

Hook - 4-29-2010 at 09:30 AM

Allright, who served the turtle soup in here?

[Edited on 4-29-2010 by Hook]

BMG - 4-29-2010 at 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

Suspicion and cause are two very different things---probable cause is tangible and probable suspicion is not. It is ONE of the things the police don't like about this law, except, of course that crazy one down there who thinks he is a little god. I heard him even say that he could tell an illegal just by the shoes he was wearing.

So, now as the bill clearly states, anyone, any citizen can sue a local law enforcement agency if said citizen thinks the law enforcement agency is not doing a good enough job.

Probable suspicion and probable cause are different, but both are legal conditions that law enforcement must abide by. If you do not believe that probable suspicion is enough for a police officer to act on then you will need to get the Supreme Court to agree. So far, they haven't.

I cannot find the part of the bill that states any citizen can sue a law enforcement agency because he or she believes they are not doing a good enough job. The legal requirement for the lawsuit would be that the agency adopted or implemented a policy to not enforce the law.

Quote:

A person who is a legal resident of this state may bring an action in superior court to challenge any official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state that adopts or implements a policy or practice that limits or restricts the enforcement of federal immigration laws to less than the full extent permitted by federal law. If there is a judicial finding that an entity has violated this section, the court shall order that the entity pay a civil penalty of not less than one thousand dollars and not more than five thousand dollars for each day that the policy has remained in effect after the filing of an action pursuant to this subsection.

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

This law does NOT mirror the federal law---only parts of it do and it is not up to the states to pass the law. Immigration is a federal issue----or would you rather see the states have control of this.

It appears to me that the new law requires law enforcement to follow federal laws on immigration. Arizona will be turning illegal aliens over to federal officials. How does this change the law on immigration?

Quote:

Originally posted by DianaT

To support this bill is to support the open harassment of one ethnic group. That is supporting human rights abuse.

To believe this statement I would have to believe that law enforcement officers are going to violate the law. I do not support harassment of any ethnic group.

Quote:

A law enforcement official or agency of this state or a county, city, town or other political subdivision of this state may not solely consider race, color or national origin in implementing the requirements of this subsection except to the extent permitted by the United States or Arizona Constitution.

I'm sorry to hear that you feel anyone supporting this bill does it for reasons of bigotry and racism. I do not consider myself either.

BMG - 4-29-2010 at 09:41 AM

I too will end it here. I've made my arguments based on the actual wording of the bill and everyone is free to agree or disagree with me and or the bill. I asked some questions in my previous post that I wouldn't mind seeing answered but I won't respond to or argue the bill any more.

gnukid - 4-29-2010 at 10:04 AM

The case for Arizona immigration law is a cutout of the health reform legislation. First they setup divisive legislation then they let the people tear each other apart, often on racial lines, then they tell you there are going to save you. Even the majority of Americans opposed this Obama care it was declared passed.

This is political theater. Now realistically Obama care and Arizona immigration law may never come into play as clearly the gov are hardly capable managers and currently a large number of states oppose it and have legislation demononstrating the lawlessness of forcing millions ot buy into a system they do not want, that isn't cost effective nor efficient.

In the case of Arizona's law its' clearly designed to divide and cause racial division. Certainly there are reasonable interpretations that yes all foreign people must have legal visas. However, most of you do not understand the law nor understand how it can achieved.

US Law applies to a legal PERSON, each of you may accept many legal PERSON identifications such as a driver's license or SS ID etc... however if you have no legal PERSON you can not be charged or sued until you become a legal PERSON. Basically, the problem with persecuting millions of illegal immigrants is that there is no capacity in the judicial system to legally determine Legal PERSONHOOD and prosecute. Now the laws could be circumvented and people simply picked up and imprisoned like Guatanamo without legal proceedings but that is unlikely to succeed as well.

Really this case is simply a STRAWMAN to be knocked down in order to usher in immigration reform which will likely legalize 30 million Mexicans and many others thereby hurting wages further and bringing on an increase of unemployment now hovering between 12-22% or worse depending on region. We are seeing a clear plan to hurt the American Middle class in order to usher in larger States, the Unionization of North American and Corporatism across the Continent and beyond. This is fast game, running hot right now, if you can't see it and you wasting time fighting your neighbor you are going to lose.

Immigration has long been used in the US to weaken populist American ideals. In every case historically immigration has been used to deteriorate individual US liberties and human rights.

Oddly many of you know the history, you've lived it but you forget so quickly. You forget what it means be a citizen and to fight for your rights, to insist the federal government conform to law and to respect States rights. This is Federal vs State power play, it's not going to go away without your involvement and understanding so tiem to get informed. Give yourself 15 minutes, turn off the TV and do some real research on immigration.

Now, looking at this thread you can easily see how this plays out theatrically, people imagine they identify with a narrowly defined left or right paradigm and oppose the demonized opposition, but you fail to see you are all of common ground and in fact you are being played out in the same game over and over to divide, conquer and weaken the populist position. Until you see yourself as common people with common ideals you will be further weakened and likely lose all rights if you haven't already.

Each of you could, instead of screaming bloody murder, define reasonable policies and promote those, work together and accomplish legal framework for reasonable migration and enforcement, wages, tarrifs, taxes and further look at the what is really hurting you and the economy, that is unfettered spending and graft.

Keep in mind, this is a theme, this is a meme, this radicalization of immigration policy and racial division is a Mass Media Talking point, its repeated on every corporate news network so you know its a manufactured message far from the reality, far from the truth.

We all believe in peaceful reasonable solutions, respect for human rights and the right for people to earn a good wage and be free from oppression, we want a economy which treats workers fairly and markets that support fair wages, work toward goals you want.

Trueheart - 4-29-2010 at 10:20 AM

I am reading in internet news that if 76,000 signatures (AZ voters) can be obtained on a petition (which will be underway shortly if it isn't already) against the new 1070 law, and if this petition is properly filed by late July or early August, that this would cause the effective date for implementation of 1070 law to be delayed until it is put to a formal vote of the AZ voters, which would happen this November, if petition gets filed by July 1st, but not until November 2012, if petition gets filed after July 1 but before deadline in early August. I am not an Arizonan, but it seems possible to me that 76,000 signatures could be obtained causing "a" delay. Also, the strategy for petitioners against this law would be to file it after July 1 causing the voting to be delayed until November 2012. Is my understanding correct, and do you Arizonans believe that 76,000 signatures could be obtained properly in the next, say, 90 days?

Mexicorn - 4-29-2010 at 10:20 AM

Psychotic illegal imigration disorder explained.

please review:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Uln3JUfl08

Copied from you tube

DENNIS - 4-29-2010 at 10:21 AM

Arizona is sinking into a civil war. Maybe thats's what it will take to make people listen to them....and others.
Too bad things come to this, but when people on our streets deem the laws of the land irrelavant, it's time they were shown the light.
Anarchy is intolerable and the roads to rebellion should be closed...especially to foreigners.

Barry A. - 4-29-2010 at 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexicorn
Psychotic illegal imigration disorder explained.

please review:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Uln3JUfl08

Copied from you tube

-------that is pure balogna, plain and simple, at least for me and those I talk to and feel I know.

Barry

Mexicorn - 4-29-2010 at 10:37 AM

Is this not related to thid thread?
As copied from youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Uln3JUfl08

Barry A. - 4-29-2010 at 10:39 AM

Sure, Mexicorn, but I just believe that this YouTube guy is wrong in his assessment.

Barry

Mexicorn - 4-29-2010 at 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS
Arizona is sinking into a civil war. Maybe thats's what it will take to make people listen to them....and others.
Too bad things come to this, but when people on our streets deem the laws of the land irrelavant, it's time they were shown the light.
Anarchy is intolerable and the roads to rebellion should be closed...especially to foreigners.

You are 100% correct Dennis the law is a racist law that must be struck down. The GOP has sunk to a new low. I'm disgusted with both Bilbray and Duncan Hunter and have decided to work feverishly against them in thier next elections. They have sold out knowing what they are saying and doing is wrong. Incidently they call themselves Christians.

Mexicorn - 4-29-2010 at 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Sure, Mexicorn, but I just believe that this YouTube guy is wrong in his assessment.

Barry

Barry I've seen you time and time again try to defend this racist law and I know deep down on some sort of a level you know it's wrong too.
Stay strong my Brother and Viva la Raza!

capt. mike - 4-29-2010 at 10:56 AM

"Gees,---not opening this thread again"

hahaha you are reading it now i'll bet. you posted earlier that you would defer but then you couldn't resist more vitriol like spewing WASP at us.

let us put it into a different perspective for you...one you MIGHT understand.

you have a home. it is full of food. and a warm bed or 2.
you paid for it all.
a family comes to your door and without asking opens it and walks in.
they start eating your food. they use the bath room. they wash their clothes in your laundry room. they go into the back yard and hang out playing music.
you ask them to leave - they refuse claiming it is their right as humans to share with you your obvious good fortune.
you call the cops - they say their hands are tied....so...you might take on the threat yourself. it is your right under the law.

WTF Diana T?? see any parallels??

i'll be in Asuncion in July - let's have a beer ok? i promise i won't bite.

but i would like to ask you not call me a WASP same as i wouldn't call you a defamatory word like $%^&*
:saint:

Barry A. - 4-29-2010 at 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexicorn

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Sure, Mexicorn, but I just believe that this YouTube guy is wrong in his assessment.

Barry

Barry I've seen you time and time again try to defend this racist law and I know deep down on some sort of a level you know it's wrong too.
Stay strong my Brother and Viva la Raza!

What I truly believe in is the "rule of law" as the basic cornerstone of this Nation, and any other Nation that hopes to survive and prosper. I see this new law as a terribly frustrated attempt to get the attention of the Fed. legislature, hoping that it will finally DO SOMETHING about the out-of-control situation with our southern border. It is one of the most basic jobs of a Countries Govt. to protect and defend their National borders------both north and south--------period! All other arguments are secondary to that, in my opinion. Our southern border is pure chaos, and if should not be that way, and the horrible consequences of this border chaos are obvious, to me.

I truly fail to understand why this concept is so threatening to ANYBODY, including those that wish to enter this Country, or any other Country-------I just take border-protection as a "given", by ANY Country. My emotions and emphathy for illegals already here in this Country take a backseat to the primary problem-------porous and chaotic borders-------fix that problem, and fix it well, and THEN we will work out what to do with the millions of illegals already here----they are 2 separate problems.

That's it, in a nutshell!!!

Barry

Mexicorn - 4-29-2010 at 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
"Gees,---not opening this thread again"

hahaha you are reading it now i'll bet. you posted earlier that you would defer but then you couldn't resist more vitriol like spewing WASP at us.

let us put it into a different perspective for you...one you MIGHT understand.

you have a home. it is full of food. and a warm bed or 2.
you paid for it all.
a family comes to your door and without asking opens it and walks in.
they start eating your food. they use the bath room. they wash their clothes in your laundry room. they go into the back yard and hang out playing music.
you ask them to leave - they refuse claiming it is their right as humans to share with you your obvious good fortune.
you call the cops - they say their hands are tied....so...you might take on the threat yourself. it is your right under the law.

WTF Diana T?? see any parallels??

i'll be in Asuncion in July - let's have a beer ok? i promise i won't bite.

but i would like to ask you not call me a WASP same as i wouldn't call you a defamatory word like $%^&*
:saint:

1.) I never called you a White Anglo Saxon Prodestent.
2.) If you were down and out with nothing from another country with just the clothes on your back would you be willing to work for food or would you just barge into a local home and demand a meal and the remote control for the T.V.?
3.) Mike your arguments hold no merits- your just wrong my Bown Brother!
4.) Viva la Raza! Y que viva los Brown Berets verdad?

Bajaboy - 4-29-2010 at 11:20 AM

Quote:

Mexicorn - 4-29-2010 at 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexicorn

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Sure, Mexicorn, but I just believe that this YouTube guy is wrong in his assessment.

Barry

Barry I've seen you time and time again try to defend this racist law and I know deep down on some sort of a level you know it's wrong too.
Stay strong my Brother and Viva la Raza!

What I truly believe in is the "rule of law" as the basic cornerstone of this Nation, and any other Nation that hopes to survive and prosper.

(Laws like the Jim Crow laws? They were once Laws would you have been so adament to protect those laws?)

I see this new law as a terribly frustrated attempt to get the attention of the Fed. legislature, hoping that it will finally DO SOMETHING about the out-of-control situation with our southern border. It is one of the most basic jobs of a Countries Govt. to protect and defend their National borders------both north and south--------period!

"Terribly frustrated attempt to get the fed and Legisture hoping it will finaly do something."

(Why now Why not 4 years ago re speaking to the fact that the race baiters were not at it then so why not now?)

All other arguments are secondary to that, in my opinion. Our southern border is pure chaos, and if should not be that way, and the horrible consequences of this border chaos are obvious, to me.

(Maybe if us Americans didnt have such a strong appetite for illegal drugs and cheap labor this Chaos as you call it would not be such an issue)

I truly fail to understand why this concept is so threatening to ANYBODY, including those that wish to enter this Country, or any other Country-------I just take border-protection as a "given", by ANY Country. My emotions and emphathy for illegals already here in this Country take a backseat to the primary problem-------porous and chaotic borders-------fix that problem, and fix it well, and THEN we will work out what to do with the millions of illegals already here----they are 2 separate problems.

That's it, in a nutshell!!!

(Fix The Problem- sounds to me your just upset about healthcare and figured you'd puch the race card issue)

(Thats it in a tear gas shell being into a crowd of demonstrating Latinos!?

Barry

Bajaboy - 4-29-2010 at 11:25 AM

Quote:

Once again, I agree with your assessment.

I think people are too quick to point out immigration as a Democrat versus Republican issue. I think there are many Dems that support enforcing exhisting immigration law (myself included) while many Republicans might be against increased enforcement. We are a nation of laws and as such we need to abide and follow our laws. For those of you that feel the US should have open borders then contact your representatives and tell them to change the laws.

As for the blanket name-calling, well, that is pure ignorance in my opinion.

DENNIS - 4-29-2010 at 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexicorn
Viva la Raza ...............$%^&*

These are two things I'd hoped not to see here. La Raza is a huge part of the problem on our streets. They're driven by their "Reconquista" ideals. Pure Bulllchiit.

The other is...well...unspeakable. :lol:

REMEMBER THE ALAMO

capt. mike - 4-29-2010 at 11:45 AM

"1.) I never called you a White Anglo Saxon Prodestent.
2.) If you were down and out with nothing from another country with just the clothes on your back would you be willing to work for food or would you just barge into a local home and demand a meal and the remote control for the T.V.? "

hey Mexi-creamed-corn... :spingrin:

i never said you did. that was for Diane T. who clearly needs to up her meds...

you don't get it - it isn't about charity - it's about laws and respecting them.
you and others who think like you are what we living in sanity call anarchists.

but i do have a sense of altruism so i'll give you a break...besides i find it so sad what happens when cousins marry so it is not all your fault. :biggrin:

DENNIS - 4-29-2010 at 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
i find it so sad what happens when cousins marry so it is not all your fault. :biggrin:

I think it did wonders for Jerry:

http://www.nndb.com/people/867/000023798/

elgatoloco - 4-29-2010 at 11:59 AM

http://politifact.com/subjects/immigration/

mtgoat666 - 4-29-2010 at 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
you don't get it - it isn't about charity - it's about laws and respecting them.

capt. cracker:
just because you put racial profiling into your new law does not mean moral people should respect an unjust law.

many unjust laws have been repealed in the US, and the new AZ racial profiling law will be repealed too.

Barry A. - 4-29-2010 at 12:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexicorn

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexicorn

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Sure, Mexicorn, but I just believe that this YouTube guy is wrong in his assessment.

Barry

Barry I've seen you time and time again try to defend this racist law and I know deep down on some sort of a level you know it's wrong too.
Stay strong my Brother and Viva la Raza!

What I truly believe in is the "rule of law" as the basic cornerstone of this Nation, and any other Nation that hopes to survive and prosper.

(Laws like the Jim Crow laws? They were once Laws would you have been so adament to protect those laws?)

IT'S NOT ABOUT 'PROTECTING LAWS'-----IT'S ABOUT OBEYING LAWS----------BAD LAW?--CHANGE IT!

I see this new law as a terribly frustrated attempt to get the attention of the Fed. legislature, hoping that it will finally DO SOMETHING about the out-of-control situation with our southern border. It is one of the most basic jobs of a Countries Govt. to protect and defend their National borders------both north and south--------period!

"Terribly frustrated attempt to get the fed and Legisture hoping it will finaly do something."

(Why now Why not 4 years ago re speaking to the fact that the race baiters were not at it then so why not now?)

I HAVE BEEN A STRONG-BORDER GUY FOR SOME 55 YEARS, AND OBNOXIOUSLY LOUD ABOUT IT.

All other arguments are secondary to that, in my opinion. Our southern border is pure chaos, and if should not be that way, and the horrible consequences of this border chaos are obvious, to me.

(Maybe if us Americans didnt have such a strong appetite for illegal drugs and cheap labor this Chaos as you call it would not be such an issue)

APPLES AND ORANGES-----FIX ONE PROBLEM AT A TIME, BUT FIX IT!!!

I truly fail to understand why this concept is so threatening to ANYBODY, including those that wish to enter this Country, or any other Country-------I just take border-protection as a "given", by ANY Country. My emotions and emphathy for illegals already here in this Country take a backseat to the primary problem-------porous and chaotic borders-------fix that problem, and fix it well, and THEN we will work out what to do with the millions of illegals already here----they are 2 separate problems.

That's it, in a nutshell!!!

(Fix The Problem- sounds to me your just upset about healthcare and figured you'd puch the race card issue)

HOW DID HEALTH CARE GET INTO THIS MIX?? WHAT RACE CARD?? THIS IS NOT ABOUT RACE-----IT'S ABOUT ENFORCEMENT OF THE LAW.

(Thats it in a tear gas shell being into a crowd of demonstrating Latinos!?

WHAT'S THIS??? I KNOW NOTHING ABOUT TEAR GAS IN CROWDS OF DEMONSTRATING LATINOS (????)

Barry

rts551 - 4-29-2010 at 12:35 PM

You guys and your "ENFORCING THE LAW"

You break laws all the time.. no more speeding Mr righteous Barry.

No more fudging on taxes....

And you Mike. Bet you support those cameras, don't you?

I love how people pick and choose the laws they choose to want to enforce.

This one will be settled in court at great expense to the people of Arizona

mtgoat666 - 4-29-2010 at 12:41 PM

Quote:

IT'S NOT ABOUT 'PROTECTING LAWS'-----IT'S ABOUT OBEYING LAWS----------BAD LAW?--CHANGE IT!

barry,
so you would take the easy route and enforce jim crow laws, because "it's the law, until it's changed."
you are so wrong in every way.

you are a white man defending a law written by white men, a law intended to violate human rights of non-white people

[Edited on 4-29-2010 by mtgoat666]

Bajaboy - 4-29-2010 at 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666
IT'S NOT ABOUT 'PROTECTING LAWS'-----IT'S ABOUT OBEYING LAWS----------BAD LAW?--CHANGE IT!

I think he is saying that current immigration law is not being enforced. Is current federal immigration law similar to jim crow laws?

Barry A. - 4-29-2010 at 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551
You guys and your "ENFORCING THE LAW"

You break laws all the time.. no more speeding Mr righteous Barry.

No more fudging on taxes....

And you Mike. Bet you support those cameras, don't you?

I love how people pick and choose the laws they choose to want to enforce.

This one will be settled in court at great expense to the people of Arizona

I never intentionally "speed" to the point of breaking the law, nor do I knowingly cheat on my taxes (it is hard to cheat when a CPA does them :lol:

). I do occasionally get caught by traffic cops, but believe me I do not intend to, nor did I intend to break the law.

If I happen to break the law, and get caught, I expect to, and do, pay the penalty------period!!!! Don't you???

I am not "Mike" but I think the "cameras" are GREAT, and they work GREAT!!! and we need more of them.

Cops are often given the discretion of enforcing the laws, or not, based on circumstances they witness------but that happens less and less these days as they now more and more get in trouble for not practicing RIGID enforcement----taking discretion out of their hands-------I think that is a mistake, and a shame, but admit that it eliminates the possible corruption that can ensue with "discretion" being practiced.

----but having said all that, I don't quite see what those issues have to do with the subject at hand???

Barry

Cypress - 4-29-2010 at 01:07 PM

Is a country that lacks the will or the ability to protect it's borders really a country. Is a nation that cannot enforce it's laws a nation? What has happened to the USA, when those in power, elected by the people, choose to enforce only the easy laws?

This pretty much sums up my feelings about this law

JESSE - 4-29-2010 at 01:08 PM

Why conservatives should oppose Arizona's immigration law

A healthy debate rages on the right about the details and dangers of Arizona’s new immigration law. Serious conservative writers such as Byron York of the Washington Examiner argue that the burdens of the law on citizens and legal immigrants are minimal. “Can anyone argue that being asked to produce a driver’s license, if one is in some sort of encounter with police in which police are acting lawfully (that is also specified by the new law) is overly burdensome?”

York and others attempt to defend the Arizona law by asserting is it essentially meaningless. Who could object to being asked for a driver’s license when caught for speeding? But the question naturally arises: Why would one need an immigration law -- considered groundbreaking by its supporters and detractors -- to allow policemen the right to check the driver’s licenses of speeders?

The law itself is murky, but it certainly broader than this. For any “lawful contact” made by law enforcement officials “where a reasonable suspicion exists that a person is an alien... a reasonable attempt shall be made, when practicable, to determine the immigration status of the person.” The phrase “lawful contact” is not much of a qualification. Just about any contact of a policeman with a citizen short of a shakedown is lawful.

The phrase “reasonable suspicion” is also broadly drafted. The law prevents police from checking immigration status “solely” because of race or ethnicity. But “reasonable suspicion” is purposely undefined in the law. In fact, Arizona’s governor, members of its legislature and local police officials have refused to publicly offer their standards for such suspicions, because those standards would almost certainly smack of racial profiling. Their silence is a kind of confession.

So the law paints a vast, gray area, leaving police tremendous discretion in its application. It could mean a Phoenix policeman asking for a driver’s license during a routine traffic stop. As far as I can tell, it could also mean a small-town Arizona sheriff, untrained as an Immigration and Customs Enforcement agent, deciding that he doesn’t like the look of a packed van containing a family of fourth-generation Americans of Hispanic origin passing his speed trap. The law’s broad discretion leaves broad leeway for abuse. And that potential for abuse is increased because authorities are not only permitted to act on a “reasonable suspicion” but required to act -- note the “shall” in the law. Another portion of the law allows for suits against local authorities if citizens do not believe the law is being enforced vigorously enough.

On these issues, conservatives are having a reasonable debate. Some believe, given the severe provocation of illegal immigration, that police must be trusted to reasonably enforce a vague law. Others, myself included, think it is disturbing to create a suspect class, based in part on ethnicity,which is required to prove its innocence on the basis of unspecified suspicions.

But York goes on to slip the surly bonds of sense and argue that the demand by police to provide identification is inherently unobjectionable in every circumstance because it is unexceptional in some circumstances. “When we board an airplane, we are asked to produce a government-issued photo ID, usually a driver’s license. When we make some credit- or debit-card purchases in department stores, we are asked to produce a driver’s license.” And so on.

It hardly requires argument that the context for such demands makes a large difference. By way of analogy, an entrance exam for college entry is expected. An entry exam at a polling place in unconstitutional. In the same way, being asked to prove your identity for security reasons to board a plane or employ credit is not the same as being asked to prove your identity to a police officer because of a vague stereotype. I am more than happy to provide my identification to an officer who clocks me speeding. I would be less cooperative if I were stopped because conservative, overweight, white men were declared by implication to be a criminally suspect class by the state of Virginia.

The failure to comprehend such a basic distinction reveals a fundamental lack of empathy. When millions of American citizens of Hispanic origin are told they will not be “solely” targeted based on their ethnicity in Arizona, they understandably hear they will be partially targeted on the basis of their ethnicity. And it is not particularly reassuring to minorities in America when informed that the police will largely police themselves -- applying a vague law with wide discretion. If conservatives and Republicans cannot even understand such concerns, they will not deserve Hispanic support.

By Michael Gerson

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postpartisan/2010/04/why_co... 1

[Edited on 4-29-2010 by JESSE]

Barry A. - 4-29-2010 at 01:25 PM

Jesse-------all those "if, and's and but's" are the reason that we never get anywhere on "immigration reform"------it is a VERY complex issue when you take all the arguements into consideration. I am a simple guy, and I like simple solutions, and understand them and am willing to take the "if, and's, and but's" in stride-----for simplicities sake!!! I see no other viable way-----just do it!

I feel the same way about the tax code-----when the govmint says that I have made a mistake on my tax reports, I simply pay what they ask for------it's way to complex to fight them, and frankly I don't have the time. No big deal. Same with traffic tickets. But I remain skeptical and keep an eye on them so they don't get carried away. I am a stong FLAT TAX guy as I want things SIMPLE.

There ARE simple solutions, but there are ALWAYS unintended consequences--------so be it--------the border status quo is unacceptable to me, and to a great many other's, I suspect. there will NEVER be a law that is fair to EVERYBODY, and does not to some degree put harships on some. I accept that.

Barry

JESSE - 4-29-2010 at 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.
Jesse-------all those "if, and's and but's" are the reason that we never get anywhere on "immigration reform"------it is a VERY complex issue when you take all the arguements into consideration. I am a simple guy, and I like simple solutions, and understand them and am willing to take the "if, and's, and but's" in stride-----for simplicities sake!!! I see no other viable way-----just do it!

I feel the same way about the tax code-----when the govmint says that I have made a mistake on my tax reports, I simply pay what they ask for------it's way to complex to fight them, and frankly I don't have the time. No big deal. Same with traffic tickets. But I remain skeptical and keep an eye on them so they don't get carried away. I am a stong FLAT TAX guy as I want things SIMPLE.

There ARE simple solutions, but there are ALWAYS unintended consequences--------so be it--------the border status quo is unacceptable to me, and to a great many other's, I suspect. there will NEVER be a law that is fair to EVERYBODY, and does not to some degree put harships on some. I accept that.

Barry

All i read from many of you guys is:

We have a big problem with immigration, and we don't care about the rights of people of hispanic heritage as long as its solved.

Thats disgusting to me, i am so ashamed of some nomads.

capt. mike - 4-29-2010 at 01:33 PM

"And you Mike. Bet you support those cameras, don't you?"

huh?? i dunno...which ones?? speed cams? i don't speed. i set my cruise on 60 on the city freeways cause i don't want a ticket, i don't like getting pulled over, and i get way better gas mileage at 60 than 70.
so - i am not worried about photo radar if that's what you refer to.

if i want to go fast....i fly, literally. no speed cams where i go at 10,000 ft.
well.....at least not yet. :lol:

irenemm - 4-29-2010 at 01:33 PM

My 17 year old granddaughter born in Ensenada and has lived her whole life in Vicente Guerrero sums it up for me. She does have a green card.
If you did not do anything wrong what is the problem. If they ask me for papers and I have them what is the problem. If I don't have them then I guess I am breaking the law. You pay the price for breaking the law
I like her thinking
Just 17

Barry A. - 4-29-2010 at 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

So be it, Jesse. But in my mind it has NOTHING to do with hispanics, other than there are more of them here illegally than any other Group of folks. Illegals came in with their eyes wide open, or should have. There are consequences for each and every one of our actions--------just the way it is.

Nuff said. Barry

Lobsterman - 4-29-2010 at 01:39 PM

I agree with the Captain on this one. Living in San Diego I do not appreciate people in our country illegally walking around my neighborhood, hanging out on corners, sleeping in canyons in deplorable conditions, using up our valuable resources, taking jobs my kids could do, clogging up our medical facilities, etc. The State of California is running multi-billion $ deficients and can no longer afford these "good samaritan" costs.

I would prefer that all illegals leave our country and come back when they are invited under a legal process. The new Arizona Immigration Law may have a few problems in it according to some but let it take effect and legally let the people fine tune it so no ones legal rights are violated. I can not believe 70% of the voters in the State of Arizona are racist as some of you infer. That's a very demeaning caricature of the people in the State of Arizona by whose saying it and could be interpreted by many including me to be a racist comment in itself.

I'm of the opinion that the State of Arizona is "mad as hell and is not going to take it anymore."

Dennis

Cypress - 4-29-2010 at 01:51 PM

Lobsterman, Glad to have you aboard.

So. You Want Immigration Reform?

Bajahowodd - 4-29-2010 at 02:02 PM

From LA Times today. The author is an assistant professor at Stanford, which is not exactly a liberal- leaning institution. I thought this article might provoke additional thought inasmuch as the Arizona law just passed is as much of a message to Washington to get moving on immigration reform as anything.

Legalization must be part of immigration reform
A path to citizenship for those already here illegally is crucial.
Tomás R. Jiménez

April 29, 2010

Opponents of comprehensive immigration reform argue that legalization rewards bad behavior. They contend that illegal immigration is a crime that merits punishment and expulsion, not amnesty. The logic is that if we respond with tough enforcement, illegal immigrants will finally get that they aren't welcome here and go back to their home countries. This kind of reasoning is what's behind laws like the one recently passed in Arizona, which requires law enforcement personnel to determine whenever possible the immigration status of suspected illegal immigrants.

But immigrants aren't going home. We know this from experience. Despite high-profile raids, beefed-up border enforcement and the worst economy since the Depression, the size of the illegal immigrant population has declined by only a small fraction. At this pace, the time it would take to realize the pipe dream of removing illegal immigrants through forced and voluntary deportations could be measured in light-years.

Given that immigrants are here to stay, it is in everyone's interest for them to assimilate — to learn English, embrace U.S. social and civic customs and become part of the economic fabric. And if that is the goal, we need to have immigration reform that goes beyond fences, high-tech surveillance, more Border Patrol officers and a guest worker program. We need a path to legalization for those who have built lives here.

Why? Because illegal status inhibits not only the assimilation of those who are here illegally but of future generations who are U.S.-born citizens. Research has consistently found that illegal immigrants and their descendants have a much tougher time gaining a social and economic foothold.

On the other hand, we know that legalization has a positive effect on assimilation. The legalization program contained in the last major immigration overhaul, the 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act, facilitated the assimilation of millions of immigrants and their children. A 2007 Merage Foundation report written by UC Irvine sociologists shows that the children of formerly illegal immigrants who obtain green cards face a brighter future and stand to contribute much more than those whose parents remain undocumented.

According to the study, U.S.-born Mexican Americans whose fathers came illegally but later obtained legal permanent residency were 25% less likely to drop out of high school, 70% more likely to graduate from college, 13% more likely to prefer English at home, and their earnings were 30% higher than those whose fathers were illegal at the time of the survey.

Part of what holds the children of illegal immigrants back is that they can never quite look forward. Parents cannot fully participate in their children's lives in ways that help them realize their full potential. As children enter adulthood, many have to take care of the financial needs of their immigrant parents, whose illegal status makes them extremely vulnerable to the vagaries of the job market, the healthcare system and housing. The situation is worse for those who were brought as young children to the United States without documentation. They suffer from the double penalty of their parents' and their own illegality.

As Congress drags its feet on immigration reform, illegal immigrants continue to put down roots and the ranks of children who suffer the penalties of their parents illegal status swells. According to a recent Pew Hispanic Center report, almost half of all illegal immigrant households are couples with children, and the overwhelming majority of the children — 73% — are U.S. citizens. The number of U.S.-born children with at least one illegal immigrant parent grew to 4 million in 2008 from 2.7 million in 2003, a 48% increase. Another 1.5 million children with at least one illegal immigrant parent are themselves illegal.

Withholding legalization imposes slow social and economic death on illegal immigrants and their children. Failure to implement comprehensive immigration reform leaves thousands of people who consider the United States their home in the shadows. It also deprives us of the opportunity to develop a better-trained workforce and to realize all the benefits, both social and economic, that a fully assimilated immigrant population can contribute. Legalization is the most crucial component of what Americans need and what they deserve: comprehensive immigration reform.

Tomás R. Jiménez is an assistant professor of sociology at Stanford University and an Irvine Fellow at the New America Foundation. He is the author of "Replenished Ethnicity: Mexican Americans, Immigration, and Identity."

Mexicorn - 4-29-2010 at 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by capt. mike
"1.) I never called you a White Anglo Saxon Prodestent.
2.) If you were down and out with nothing from another country with just the clothes on your back would you be willing to work for food or would you just barge into a local home and demand a meal and the remote control for the T.V.? "

hey Mexi-creamed-corn... :spingrin:

but i do have a sense of altruism so i'll give you a break...besides i find it so sad what happens when cousins marry so it is not all your fault. :biggrin:

Mike I know your just beating your chest and I have no problem with that but could you please try and clean up your diatribe. Kids read this stuff.
PS What kind of food and drinks do you serve on your airlines? My Prima wanted to know? :spingrin:

JESSE - 4-29-2010 at 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

Quote:

You keep clumping all of us in the same basquet. Illegals, legals, citizens, residents, everybody!!! and you don't expect me to think this is racial?

A legal US born mexican american has nothing to do with the illegal immigration problem, nothing! he has the same rights as you do (at least on paper), and has no reason whatsover, to deal with consequences of a law that targets all latinos in order to catch the illegal ones.

Its like gill nets, you catch everything and kill everything in order to catch some sharks.

Mexicorn - 4-29-2010 at 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lobsterman
I agree with the Captain on this one. Living in San Diego I do not appreciate people in our country illegally walking around my neighborhood, hanging out on corners, sleeping in canyons in deplorable conditions, using up our valuable resources, taking jobs my kids could do, clogging up our medical facilities, etc. The State of California is running multi-billion $ deficients and can no longer afford these "good samaritan" costs.

Are you referring to the large homeless population in the East Village of Downtown San Diego? I didn't see too many Mexicans among them

DENNIS - 4-29-2010 at 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by irenemm

If you did not do anything wrong what is the problem.

We should apply her mature reasoning to this entire issue. The Arizona police haven't done anything as yet and everybody is crying as though they've been slapped around with the Bill Of Rights.

I'm full convinced that if it wasn't the racial profiling issue, which to this point hasn't occured, it would be something else. The activists just want everything their way in spite of the laws that were broken. They just flat ignore that point.
What the eff is this all about?

capt. mike - 4-29-2010 at 02:28 PM

Mike I know your just beating your chest and I have no problem with that but could you please try and clean up your diatribe. Kids read this stuff.

sure - this has gotten old anyway...i am too bored to argue, so it is a tie - fair enuff?? :yawn:

PS What kind of food and drinks do you serve on your airlines? My Prima wanted to know?

haha. it's BYOB of course!
sometimes we have do-nutz if it's early, and i always bring coffee. on short final i'll pop an adult beverage to celebrate that i am once again in Baja...legally of course... :bounce:

Barry A. - 4-29-2010 at 02:49 PM

Jesse said,

"You keep clumping all of us in the same basquet. Illegals, legals, citizens, residents, everybody!!! and you don't expect me to think this is racial?

A legal US born mexican american has nothing to do with the illegal immigration problem, nothing! he has the same rights as you do (at least on paper), and has no reason whatsover, to deal with consequences of a law that targets all latinos in order to catch the illegal ones.

Its like gill nets, you catch everything and kill everything in order to catch some sharks. "

Jesse, You are confusing me here-------I don't believe I "clumped" anybody, other than "illegals"-------certainly am NOT talking about legal folks here, no matter their ethnicity!!

If you mean that hispanics generally will be targeted by this new law----then I understand your concern, but it seems to me that this is wayyyyyyyy over-blown since the law bends over backwards to NOT profile any ethnic group. Yes, some loony cops will profile, that is unavoidable, but when that happens and the cop is proved to be abusing, then he should be fired. That's true of rogue-cops inforcing ANY law.

Once upon a time in Northern Baja, there was a bank robbery in Ensenada, commited by a gringo, according to witnesses. I was in the Half-Way house 30 miles north, having some beers, and I apparently matched the description of the robber-----I was arrested and held for 2 days until it was decided that I was not the robber------I certainly understood why the Mexican cops arrested me, and tho it scared me I was not in the least upset with the cops----they were doing their job. Stuff happens!!!

Bottom line: probably this new law will never be truly implimented, so all this talk is academic, but I still say that in order to get a handle on this particular problem there will be some inconvenience to USA citizens, but something has to be done, and it is worth the inconvenience to at least partially solve the problem. Like many have said here, showing ID is no big deal----we do it all the time, especially when using a credit card. I think this argument is a true RED HERRING.

How would you solve the problem?

Barry

mtgoat666 - 4-29-2010 at 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by irenemm

If you did not do anything wrong what is the problem.

We should apply her mature reasoning to this entire issue.

What the eff is this all about?

freedom-loving americans do not take kindly to military or police stopping/searching/interogating people without probable cause.

do you look latino? bend over. you got working man shoes on? bend over (brian bilbray said you can tell an illegal by their shoes). do you speak with an accent? bend over. do you have an irish pride bumper sticker on your car? bend over. do you root for montreal? bend over, you must be an illegal.

dennis, if you like that, why don't you move to a police state like north korea. you will like it there, they have a border where they shoot to kill, and ask no questions later.

[Edited on 4-29-2010 by mtgoat666]

tripledigitken - 4-29-2010 at 02:58 PM

Barry,

The common belief by many that I have discussed this with is that we should have open borders, period.

When you disagree you are considered racist. Most won't say that openly, but its obvious that is how they feel.

So, we are in for a long struggle. Obama will not address immigration this year, he said it on AF1 to the press today. Of course, he blamed Congress being too worn out over Health Care to take on another big issue.

Ken

Barry A. - 4-29-2010 at 02:59 PM

Goat----------you are really funny, tho somewhat silly. :lol:

Barry

Don't count me

Dave - 4-29-2010 at 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JESSE

All i read from many of you guys is:

We have a big problem with immigration, and we don't care about the rights of people of hispanic heritage as long as its solved.

Thats disgusting to me, i am so ashamed of some nomads.

I consider this purely a legal exercise. I'm for open borders and don't care how many illegals there are in the U.S. Besides, I think the U.S. would have a far greater problem if 12+ million Mexicans were sent home.

rts551 - 4-29-2010 at 03:07 PM

"Once upon a time in Northern Baja, there was a bank robbery in Ensenada, commited by a gringo, according to witnesses. I was in the Half-Way house 30 miles north, having some beers, and I apparently matched the description of the robber-----I was arrested and held for 2 days until it was decided that I was not the robber------I certainly understood why the Mexican cops arrested me, and tho it scared me I was not in the least upset with the cops----they were doing their job. Stuff happens!!! "

barry

time for your nap now.

Barry A. - 4-29-2010 at 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tripledigitken
Barry,

The common belief by many that I have discussed this with is that we should have open borders, period.

When you disagree you are considered racist. Most won't say that openly, but its obvious that is how they feel.

So, we are in for a long struggle. Obama will not address immigration this year, he said it on AF1 to the press today. Of course, he blamed Congress being too worn out over Health Care to take on another big issue.

Ken

Sure, but not "to busy" to take up Cap and Tax, I bet!!!

Of course you are right. "Open borders" sorta works in Europe where the economies of bordering countries are similar, but Mexico and the USA are not on a "level playing field" and open borders would be a disaster, in my opinion. The two Countries will not reach parity for years, if ever------we do not operate the same way at all.

As Ross Perot once said, open borders would result in a "large sucking sound", or something like that, and Mexico's population could drop like a stone.

I agree with what you say here---------a long, long struggle----probably go on long after I am gone.

Barry

Barry A. - 4-29-2010 at 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rts551

time for your nap now.

How could I POSSIBLY sleep after all this excitement and dialogue. Still, I will consider it.

Barry

comitan - 4-29-2010 at 03:28 PM

I wonder if the people who believe in legalizing Marijuana, believe in open borders and Barry no naps. :lol:

DENNIS - 4-29-2010 at 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

freedom-loving americans do not take kindly to military or police stopping/searching/interogating people without probable cause.

Oh, no. I wouldn't like that either. Tell me where that happened so I can be sure and never go there.

Quote:

bend over.

Nope. You'll have to ask someone else for that, Goat.

Quote:

do you have an irish pride bumper sticker on your car?

No, but I should. Where can I get one?

Quote:

why don't you move to a police state like north korea. you will like it there, they have a border where they shoot to kill, and ask no questions later.

I guess that means they have to mow their own lawns. They'll never learn, will they.

Barry A. - 4-29-2010 at 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by comitan
I wonder if the people who believe in legalizing Marijuana, believe in open borders and Barry no naps. :lol:

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm----a very good question (I have my suspicions).

Actually, I hate naps--------I always feel like I have been drugged after I take a nap!!! (and after reading Goat's posts).

Barry

tripledigitken - 4-29-2010 at 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by DENNIS

Quote:

Originally posted by mtgoat666

freedom-loving americans do not take kindly to military or police stopping/searching/interogating people without probable cause.

Oh, no. I wouldn't like that either. Tell me where that happened so I can be sure and never go there.

Quote:

The entire length of Baja!!!!!

gnukid - 4-29-2010 at 03:52 PM

This is the hegelian dialectic, either you're against the Arizona law because you are racist or you are against it because you are racist, either one requires a solution to stop the (read=fake) racism.

The issue of immigration is intertwined with racism and guilt so that both Americans and Mexicans can feel good and justify supporting Amnesty and unionization of the North AMerican Continent with combined labor forces, combined military and reduced competition for corporate monopolies who continue to consolidate.

NAFTA, GATT, SPP are all stpes toward reducing the power of the US economic engine to force the people to give up what they have and succumb to reduced sovereignty and individual rights.

La Raza is funded reportedly by many conservative foundations and by getting amnesty on the table and eventually approved you will have a large voting block that will go the way they are told to reduce constitutional law and individual rights even further.

Either way, people need to see the theater as that and refocus on the main issues, the costly and muderous wars and the costly banking cabal both of which are combined to takedown the country at increasingly rapid pace.

Stop being distracted by race baiting, and nonsense and remind yourself you are being played out as little toys in a game of chess that has you marching to your demise unless you pick yourself up, remind yourself who you are as a peaceful person with natural rights.

rts551 - 4-29-2010 at 03:53 PM

" Sure, but not "to busy" to take up Cap and Tax, I bet!!!"

Barry.... back to sleep

Arizona ranks 19th in total taxes and the Republican/conservative dominated legislature is looking at another 1 percent increase in sales tax... its not just your hatred lefties

JESSE - 4-29-2010 at 03:57 PM

1.-I don't believe in open borders

2.-I believe the US has the right to control its borders

3.-If the US decides its necessary, they have the right to deport all illegals

4.-I believe the Mex goverment is responsible for Mexicans leaving for the US

5.-I believe US corporations, and to an extent, the US gov, allows this

6.-I don't think its right, to implements vague laws where you leave it up to police officers, to decide wether i should be asked for ID based on how i look

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