Santa Isabel Found - not joking - nomad wanted

Just to be clear, there are a few push pins, but those aren't the path. They're just some questions I have about the area and some of them aren't even really along the way you guys are planning on going on this trip. In fact, some of them may be able to be answered by you guys already.

The "path" is marked as a white line with directional arrows. The path is about 4.65 miles long if I remember right. Along the path you will see "camera" icons which each have a blue or yellow bubble coming from the camera lense. These represent photos that I hope can be taken. The camera is placed at the spot were I would like you to stand and the blue or yellow bubble shows both the direction and scope of the target I am hoping you can photograph from that spot. (of course, if it turns out that my exact camera position is behind a huge rock, please don't take a picture of the rock Once you're there I'm sure you will be able to find the most reasonable place to take those photos from. The blue bubbles are photos that I think are critical to putting this matter to rest. The yellow bubbles are kind of "nice-to-have" photos of features I would like to understand, but which are explaining geological features rather than archaeological features or are things I just can't make much sense of from the satellite images.

Thanks.

Okay, here are 5 images with elbeau's track and markings... The white balloon site b marker is mine at the spot where elbeau sees the lost mission.

The first three images are with north at the top, and the last two are southward, towards the El Marmol schoolhouse (yellow pin in distance):











[Edited on 3-29-2011 by David K]

I might have found a way to pull together enough money for my wife and I to join you on the trip. That doesn't mean I've convinced her to go and I'd have to arrange for a relative to fly to town to watch my kids while we're gone, so it's not a done deal, but I'd like to try to come if you don't mind some more company.

I'm not sure who all is going on the trip yet, and I don't know what dates everybody is going. If someone's going to be driving down from San Diego the day before and coming back the day after and if you have some room and want to split gas money, please let me know. I'm thinking of taking an early morning flight into SD, renting a vehicle, then driving to the site one day, hiking in and out the next day, the driving back to SD the following day and flying home. It'd be a quick trip, but I sure would like to make it work.

Also, I'm having a hard time finding glowing reports on how safe it is for a consummate gringo who can barely pronounce the menu at Taco Bell to travel outside tourist destinations in Mexico, including Baja. I'm sure a lot of you will have a lot of different opinions about this, but seriously, I've got four kids and I don't want to be stupid and mess up their lives just so I could go for a day hike in Baja. Honestly, is it risky?

TW, how much of a difference would it make to rent ATV's for that terrain?

If my business ever gets going before then, I will come on down... Too much fun not to!

El Marmol is about 2 hours drive from El Rosario... or 7 hours drive from the border. Arroyo el Volcan is 4.0 miles from El Marmol (take right fork, 2.0 miles from El Marmol)... That left fork at mile 2.0 goes around the top of the arroyo drainage... the peninsular divide... above the lost mission site to a mine dig... Another left branch off of it goes to a ditched drug runner's runway (actually there are two you can see on Google Earth). Drove out to it in 2006 looking for a route to the gulf (this is near the Bill Nichols trail).

The 9 mile road to El Marmol from Hwy. 1 is fast and easy:



The onyx schoolhouse ruin is the only building remaining in this ghost town that closed up in 1958:



There may be a sign pointing the road that forks left, just before the schoolhouse:



This is the fork at Mile 2.0 from the schoolhouse, right to drop down, down, down to El Volcan and on to La Olvidada or left to dead ends at prospects and ditched airplane runways:



The long downgrade to El Volcan wash:



Lot's of Elephant trees grow here:



This is the white slope next to the road you come to if you cross the wash and head about 1/4 mile beyond:



To see El Volcan... turn right in the wash and go about 1/2 mile (you may be able to drive about half that in the wash)... the onyx dome (geyser) is on the right side of the arroyo, against the cliff... Here's me standing on top:



The Lost Santa Isabel Mission mystery site is to the LEFT in the arroyo where the El Marmol road crosses it.

[Edited on 3-29-2011 by David K]

Opening KML's & KMZ's

DOA. I'm not a believer

And I liked your joke. I, too, saw boobies.
Wow, you just called one of my writings a treatise. Thanks. I'm going to sleep well tonight.

Hey Bryan, I know you took a couple of digs at me, but truthfully I'm glad to have you in the conversation even if you are a bit late

You've covered a lot of ground, and most of what you've said is probably accurate, but let me make a few corrections:

First, you said:

(pardon my poor grammer, but I didn't feel it proper to correct myself when quoting myself)

As far as the arches are concerned, you are correct that I can't explain why they would be where I say they appear to be. What I've said about the arches is that I see them in the imagery and they certainly don't look anything like something 18th century missionaries would build, so if they do exist, they may be quite old. On the other hand, DK has made a strong case that what we're looking at may simply be old mining implements. The point is that we don't know if they even exist, only that they appear to exist in the images.

Like I said, I can't explain why they would exist going up a hill, I can't explain why they would exist if they were "only" decorative...which I've never claimed, I would think that someone with your expertise would notice that when ancient structures slowly deteriorate, their arches are often the last part of the old structure that is left standing. Your questions about the arches are proper questions to ask and certainly deserve an answer that I can't give, in fact you may be completely correct in your logic and argument, but you're trying to rule out the possibility of their existence using the same images that I'm using to argue for their existence and the only additional evidence you site is that we should "Simply Google "stone arch" & select "images.""

so...I did:






Like I said, I like your questions about the arch, they are constructive to this conversation and have a logical basis, but I'll also bet that you'll agree that ancient unknown civilizations can surprise us. Imagine yourself discovering Easter Island before anyone knew who built those magnificent statues. Also imagine for a minute that this terrible, barren, water-starved peninsula you're looking at is right across the Gulf of California from civilizations like the Aztecs and hasn't received NEARLY the archaeological attention as the mainland.

I probably do have an overactive imagination. I'll readily admit that, but I would hope that after reading this thread you could rule out the idea that this is just a ruse. I might be crazy, but I'm not malicious.

C'mon, admit it, it's worthy of a day hike and a few good photos. I've ALWAYS said I could be wrong, and I even ADMITTED I WAS WRONG after Tom and Bill's first trip report, before I got to review the photos. Like yourself, I'm trying to make it on this trip too, just for the adventure of it if nothing else.

Welcome to the conversation. I'm glad to have someone with good expertise with GE chiming in. If these features really can be disproven from the images we have or others you can produce, you will find me ready to accept that result, but we're not there yet.

I'd take up your argument about the water and the rainy season, but I'm just too tired. maybe tomorrow.



[Edited on 3-30-2011 by BajaNomad]

[Edited on 3-30-2011 by elbeau]

The fact is, there are stories out there of lost "missions" and buried treasures. Personally, I REALLY don't think there's much of a chance of finding any treasure whether it ever existed or not...but not only is it fun to look into these stories, but who know what we might find along the way.

To address your statement about the mission being built on level areas away from drainage courses, well, that's a double-edged sword, because when you're dealing with the legends of the "lost mission" you often run into versions of the story that describe some kind of landslide that both destroyed (or partially destroyed) the so-called mission, and which covers the entrance to the cave or mine containing the Jesuit "Treasure".

...and...

Regardless of whether or not you think you see man-made structures in my photos, do you see the landslide?



Again, I know the landslide argument cuts both ways...it agrees with the legends, but choosing a location vulnerable to a landslide disagrees with the foresight the "friars" should have had (unless, of course, they built it for the purpose of being burried...hehe...don't you love arguing against legends that are not restricted to reason or facts?). But, on the other hand, I'm not exactly arguing that these so-called structures were built by friars.

Well...Since when is rainfall or streamflow constant? I never said it was. What I said is that we have reports of water pooled around rocks with green vegetation growing around it, and we haven't found any studies about the water table in the area. So, let's look at what we DO know. We know for a fact that right inside this same drainage, just a few short miles away, is El Volcan. El Volcan is a fresh-water geyser and from everything DK and others have posted, we have every reason to believe that not only does this geyser spout large amounts of soda-water every month or so, but that around the geyser are significantly-sized standing pools of water that do not dry up, whether or not it's rainy season. Perhaps there's evidence to contradict this, but nobody has presented anything about El Volcan except that you always find standing pools of water, including one that "doesn't seem to have a bottom".

We also know that both now and in the past large mammals, including big horn sheep, live around the arroyo. It's safe to say that those animals are drinking --something-- and since the two closest water sources seem to be the spring near the coast 12 miles away and El Volcan. The stories I've found of the big horn sheep and the antelope do not center around the geyser, so I'll ask you, where are they getting their drinking water?

The answer to this is that the evidence we have so far points to the idea of a high water table in the arroyo. Now, that's not an opened and shut case, but it's hardly been refuted by anything you have presented.

Honestly, it really confuses me how both you and DK think that the water argument has been made to such a point that you can use it as evidence against the possibility of an ancient culture in the arroyo area. Although DK readily points out that the Jesuits never mention a "Santa Isabel Mission" in their writings, it wasn't until late in this post that he passingly mentioned that they did record a mention of a Santa Isabel source of water.

My argument for this being a source of water might logically lead you to ask why nobody lives there now or in the recent past. That would be a good question, but it would also be one you could as about the Santa Maria mission. In the end, anecdotal arguments about "why would someone do something or not do something?" may lead you in a general direction of thought, but it is not evidence, and so far the evidence points towards the idea that although the arroyo isn't exactly the Colorado River, it may not be as dry as previously assumed either.


edited because quoting Bryan's whole remark just took up too much room

[Edited on 3-30-2011 by elbeau]

Repost from 10-31-04

"...remain a secret with so many prospectors covering those hillsides the past 100+ years"

The Great Murals were a "secret" for 1000s of years. The miners would not have cared about any old stone walls or would not have done anything about them if one did decide to do any intellectual analysis regarding their origins.

The standing pools to the right of the El Volcan junction, about 1/4 mi. down the arroyo, come from numerous seeps in the cliffs - I've seen them. I pumped this water through my Sweetwater filter and it was still too mineralized to drink. There are bubbling underground springs in the new onyx hill and in some of the standing pools - I've seen them. The water table would not make much difference to people or animals living here - I doubt there was much drilling for water of any sort. However, there may be have been much water collection and storage. This arroyo is simply a water course created by sporadic rainstorms (found all over Baja); there would be resultant fresh water-filled tinajas for some weeks afterward for animals. I would opine that the people who inhabited this area did so for hunting the sheep and other animals who came for the water source; the mineral pools would also offer some means of hygiene, and possibly certain plants grew here and nowhere else.

From these photos I could see where a Google image might produce an illusion of turrets or arches or steps in places, given the numerous rock outcrops and fracturing of the rock cliffs (at the junction and immediately to the right of the junction):





For sure, there were people here:







I hope the recent grading has improved erosion like this:

Nice photos Wilderone... glad you shared the rock art too... Arroyo el Volcan is highly interesting to be sure...

For those of you with the Baja Almanac or topo maps, this is mis-named as Arroyo Zamora on them... and another arroyo just south carries the name El Volcan (in error).

On maps made about 100 years ago by American prospectors, the arroyo was given the name 'Tule Wash'.

Note that El Volcan was a regular trail route from 'onyx' (El Marmol) to the gulf:

1905:


1905-1919:


1919:


1930:


[Edited on 3-30-2011 by David K]

Those shadowy sections uphill from my proposed "mission site" have always defied any logic I ever tried to apply to them. The best I could guess is that it was either a North West facing slope, like all the other shadowy areas you see in GE, but the drainage and shadows just didn't ever come together for that. I also thought that it might be thick vegetation of some kind, but that never looked right either. But today I think I started to understand them.

It's hard to try to reconstruct the details of this, but only because the event would have been pretty destructive...but here's the basic idea:



And here's a VERY, VERY, VERY, VERY imprecise, rough guess to help you see what I'm thinking happened at some point:

The person with the lost mine who wanted Gardner to buy into was Jesus Flores:


Jesus Flores who has a secret (lost) mine, has an entire chapter in Gardner's book. In 2001, he was our guide searching for the lost mission (www.vivabaja.com/van1). Both are still lost!

(At the time, I didn't realize it was the same person who guided Gardner, 40 years earlier!)

Since I made the web page of my 2002 trip, the lost mission was found... but I hadn't heard about the lost mine being found.


Here is Jesus in 2002, riding past Camp Gecko:




I naturally asked him to autograph his photo in my copy of Gardner's book (which I brought with me, just in case):



(Baja is just a great big adventure and wonderful experience!)

Quote:

Originally posted by David K Nice photos Wilderone... glad you shared the rock art too... Arroyo el Volcan is highly interesting to be sure... For those of you with the Baja Almanac or topo maps, this is mis-named as Arroyo Zamora on them... and another arroyo just south carries the name El Volcan (in error). On maps made about 100 years ago by American prospectors, the arroyo was given the name 'Tule Wash'. Note that El Volcan was a regular trail route from 'onyx' (El Marmol) to the gulf: 1905:

You've got to give credit to the accuracy of whoever made that map. It lined up with three onyx quarries and the chain of islands fantastically. This gives you a great idea of exactly where the old "El Tule" trail went. Even those of you who are following this thread who think I'm crazy because of the Santa Isabel thing must admit that doing a trip down that old trail is a worthy adventure someday.

DK, I haven't heard anything about those two onyx quarries on the East side of the range. How well are they known?

KML File

Rebuttal to Elbeau's Rebuttal to my rebuttal

Apologies for the silence. I've been away for 2 days on personal matters & am just now getting back into the fray. Me thinks I'm going to put many Nomads to sleep with my continued 'lecture series.' So if you're no longer interested, I take no offense.

Thanks David; not withstanding that this is apparently a NOT remote area and that miners, Nomads, ATV's and many people have passed through this arroyo for more than a century ... I'd actually enjoy a day trip out here, poking around for the first time and sending postcards back to the family. And mostly meeting my fellow Nomads, many whom I've not yet met.

"I would really like to make sure that the feedback makes it into this nomad thread" ... http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showthreaded&a...

"I REALLY don't think there's much of a chance of finding any treasure whether it ever existed or not...but not only is it fun to look into these stories, but who know what we might find along the way." ... AGREED

"I can't explain why they would exist going up a hill" ... of course you can't ... those arches CANNOT exist in the first place, much less exist beyond everything else. The arch pictures demonstrate this; arches come in all shapes and sizes --- BUT each footing MUST be at the same elevation (horizontal ground). Here, let's go back to square one --- "one downside is that an arch pushes outward at the base, and this needs to be restrained in some way, either with heavy sides and friction or angled cuts into bedrock or similar." Hence, if one end is higher than the other, the higher end blows the lower end out; ref.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch#Technical_aspects

"you're trying to rule out the possibility of their existence" ... they never existed, they could not have been constructed, or is there an anti-gravity machine I'm not aware of; ref.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch#Technical_aspects

"your questions about the arch, they are constructive to this conversation and have a logical basis, but I'll also bet that you'll agree that ancient unknown civilizations can surprise us." ... yes, they understood gravity; ref.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch#Technical_aspects

"it's worthy of a day hike and a few good photos" ... AGREED, I said I'd go for the sunshine and adventure

"do you see the landslide?" ... no, I see erosion/gullies on either side of your arrow

"it really confuses me how both you and DK think that the water argument has been made to such a point that you can use it as evidence against the possibility of an ancient culture in the arroyo area." ... very simple Elbeau --- look at every other mission site; the good friars chose locations (sometimes moved once, or even twice) that had CONTINUAL water, SURFACE water or GROUND water that could have been just a few feet below the surface. HOW DID THEY KNOW? Look for mature vegetation. Trees, palm oasis, whatever. Ref.: Mulege, San Ignacio, La Paz, El Rosario, etc., all situated in arroyos that indicated to them that this was a location with a reliable fresh water source. If I'm going to grow food, conquer savages and flush my toilet, I need water. So I looks for where trees and shrubs are growing naturally.

"it may not be as dry as previously assumed either" ... see above & this from Wilderone ... "This arroyo is simply a water course created by sporadic rainstorms (found all over Baja)" ... for the entire post … if water sources were here, they were (are) intermittent, not perennial.

"Finally, there never was the time and energy to collect treasures or mine gold by the Jesuits or their Indians... they barely could feed themselves, so all energy went into food production." ... thanks David; I make the point not because I'm the expert, but take a read from THE expert in Jared Diamond's book "Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed" which covers this topic in glorious detail.

Back to tunnels in the earth from a camera on a satellite at 20,000 miles above the earth in geo-synchronous orbit --- yes, I know the CIA et al can read license plates from up there if they want to, but this is us civies using commercial products for dummies --- but if you can see a cave or tunnel ... what can I say, that logic on these images is right up there with my buddy the Road Runner (and I love him) you're going to need a wee bit o' dynamite to make that a reality ...

Lastly Elbeau, the question remains --- that no one yet has asked (unless I missed it) --- how is it that you arrived at these particular coordinates at this tiny geographic location??? And then postulated this theory? I'm not even sure after several Margaritas that I'm using those words correctly.

Good night. I’m pooped. And my head hurts.

[Edited on 2011-4-1 by bryanmckenzie]

What fun this is!

elbeau, I recommend getting a copy of the Lower California Guidebook by Gulick and Gerhard... last printing was 1970 (1967 edition) or the 1962 edition (or 1964 printing of it).

The spring 'Agua del Mezquitito' is on the 1905 map, as well as being in one of the lost mission stories.

In the 1980 book Rockhounding in Baja by W.R.C. Shedenhelm (La Siesta Press) on page 29: ... 33 miles south of Puertecitos, there is yet another deposit of calcite onyx in a canyon called "Tule Arroyo."

In the 1970 guidebook 'Baja California Mexico' by Cliff Cross on page 80: 33 (miles from Puertecitos, 4 from Okie Landing): Onyx mine on the hillside, to right.

Here is Cliff's map:



(Agua del Mezquitito is 2.4 miles south of Okie Landing)

Lower California Guidebook map:




----------------------------------------------------------------------

Bryan... good to have you scientific eye here!

[Edited on 4-1-2011 by David K]

Onyx/ Soda Springs

There are a few soda springs in Baja where onyx is being made... most are between Puertecitos and Gonzaga Bay. El Marmol is only a dozen miles west of the gulf shore, as the crow flies.

There is a huge soda spring overlooking Gonzaga Bay and there was even some pieces of onyx laying about at the site. My son and I went there in 2002:

It took a few tries to find it (it can be seen from the beach, but that is a few miles away).

Hiking up the right arroyo, the lower end of the field looks like a glacier... only that isn't ice!:




Up further the spring deposit is giant, view west:




My son, 13 then with the sea in the distance, view east:



Baja is filled with magic places like this!

(if you find the onyx springs, please avoid walking on the crystal layers... also requested by a fellow Nomad to not post the GPS online.)

Quote:

Originally posted by David K Nice photos Wilderone... glad you shared the rock art too... Arroyo el Volcan is highly interesting to be sure... For those of you with the Baja Almanac or topo maps, this is mis-named as Arroyo Zamora on them... and another arroyo just south carries the name El Volcan (in error). On maps made about 100 years ago by American prospectors, the arroyo was given the name 'Tule Wash'. Note that El Volcan was a regular trail route from 'onyx' (El Marmol) to the gulf: 1930: [Edited on 3-30-2011 by David K]

Here's the 1930 map overlaid as good as I can figure. The coastline has two points anchored correctly, but a lot wrong in-between, but El Marmol and Santa Maria and other sites line up well, so I think our arroyo is pretty well represented by this map positioning. Again, it's impressive how accurately these maps were drawn when you consider they were done by hand.

KML File

Here you go:

KML File

Wow... If you don't mind, I will just ask you to make overlay maps... okay?

Have a nice Saturday!

Quote:

Originally posted by David K Quote: Originally posted by TW I just finished reading Baja's Hidden Gold by Herman Hill. Herman had an interesting take on what happened to the treasure etc from the missions. Chapter 30 was interesting, maybe we should talk to Juan at the rancho and get our metal detectors out.

I think it's appropriate at this point to make sure I don't digress into being intellectually dishonest. I've made a lot of arguments pushing the idea that some features of this arroyo area might be man made and might be ancient, and while I still believe there's a good enough case for those arguments to warrant another photo-taking trip, my arguments also have the tendency to over-sensationalize these ideas to a point where it looks like there's no more critical thinking involved.

So, for the sake of being straightforward, instead of pushing my ideas in this post, I'm going to take a step back and show you what I think is "probably" there, rather than what "might" be there. Each argument falls in a different place on the scale of probability, so I'll try to explain each.

First, my biggest blunder...the really awesome fountain structure from my original post is really probably nothing more than me using the wrong camera angle and not understanding the shadows, and not being conservative enough in my thinking. Here's what I see these days:



Here's the raw image:



The "reservoir" I originally identified uphill from there still has a lot of explaining to do before I'll understand the high water marks, but I believe I can rule out the small features that made me say I thought I had a case for a man-made dam. This doesn't mean that I don't think there was standing water there, because I still do, but I see no evidence now that I can use to say it was intentionally made into a reservoir:



Here's the raw image:



Several features at my "mission site" still look man-made to me, but it is very possible that DK's suggestion that they may turn out to be old mine workings is a definite possibility...but not the only possibility

I still see structures that may have sloughed off from an area uphill that seems to defy both a geological and an archaeological explanation to me. I REALLY would like to settle my mind on these features and I am REALLY looking forward to seeing what turns up from the April trip (which it is looking more and more unlikely for me to attend).

Here's what I currently see:



Here's the raw image:





The corral still seems to have been purposefully cleared to me, but quite possibly for placer mining...although this is just as speculative as other conclusions:



The arch feature is still quite intriguing to me, although there's a possibility that it's a trick of the eye as follows:




Here's the raw image:



I still think it looks more like an arch than a trick of the eye, especially given the photo that Tom and Bill took, but I have to admit that there are rock formations in Wilderone's photo that could explain that even if there is a standing formation right there, it may be natural with funny shadows, it may be natural with vegetation in front of it, or it may be natural with a hole cut through it. I look forward to learning more about it.

Anyways, I'm sure this post will provoke several I-told-you-so's, but my goal in this post is not to "be right", it's to understand these features and the area and whether or not it turns up something really cool, I'll still be glad I had this long-distance vicarious adventure. Thanks to all!

Here's the El Marmol Schoolhouse looking straight down to compare to other features at exactly the same camera altitude and compass angle, giving us an idea of size in comparison to the size of a known feature nearby.

First, a ground photo of the schoolhouse:



Then the overhead photos:

Yeah, and you're probably right...but what's the worst that can come of this? We've already produced the best documentation available online for the area. The worst that happens here is that I'm wrong about all the archaeology and this thread turns into a resource on how NOT to interpret GE imagery and it becomes a resource for anybody wanting to understand or visit the area and it becomes a resource on the history of this area of Baja. Those are three VERY appropriate uses of a BajaNomad threas...wouldn't you agree?

And for what it's worth, people may mock dreamers, but I'd rather be a dreamer anyways

Lou, the short answer is, KINDA-SORTA.
The longer, more correct answer is, NO.
To be able to determine the 3rd parameter (elevation), photo panels must overlap and be shot from 2 angles (stereo coverage). This is always done when using low altitude airplanes to map an area. I believe once elevation is known you can simply "drape" a flat photo onto the known 3-D surface. Just like Elbeau or I drape maps onto the known GE surface we call earth.

(Side note, GPS takes this one level higher to include a 4th parameter (time); this is why a minimum of 4 satellites are requires to calculate where you are. But I digress).

Here is a short intro ... http://www.stereoscopy.com/faq/photogrammetry.html

I am. I'd love to make this trip. I could meet you in San Diego & ride together.
However, given the (lack of) work situation, I'm hesitant to commit to diverting time and money for this when I need to be job hunting. Let me think on it a few days.

EL MARMOL & EL VOLCAN PICS

Since the trip involves being there.. and El Volcan (the cold water geyser) is only 4/10 a mile (2/3 a kilometer) up the arroyo from the road between El Marmol and La Olvidada, I am showing my 2006 pics again plus some never before posted in Arroyo el Volcan.

The Santa Isabel site is down stream from the road about 3 miles.

The first 5 are of the onyx schoolhouse:











The next two are at the mineralized white slope that is just 1/4 mile from the Arroyo el Volcan crossing, along the La Olvidada road... in the background is Arroyo el Volcan going down to the Santa Isabel site:





The next 6 photos are in Arroyo el Volcan driving and walking up to El Volcan geyser (also called the onyx dome)... one of the pools is too deep to see the bottom, and Baja Angel is lying next to it:



Looking up and down the arroyo from where we parked, 0.2 mile from the La Olvidada road:











The next 7 are at El Volcan:













See my silver truck way down the arroyo? That is all we had to walk to get to El Volcan, as we could drive half way to the geyser from the road, in the arroyo in 2006:



The final photo is walking back to the truck looking at the east side cliff of the arroyo and see Baja Angel for scale:

Map:




Image:



Site 'b' in white balloon is elbeau's Santa Isabel site, about 3 miles down the arroyo. El Volcan is 0.4 miles up the arroyo from the road to El Marmol/La Olvidada.



[Edited on 4-8-2011 by David K]

Realistically, I'm pretty sure that my interpretations of the GE imagery are overzealous. I've had some u2u's with bryanmckenzie and even though I've posted a lot of objections to what he sees, I'm just being hard-headed. As this plays out, he will likely be proven correct on most points.

On the other hand, the argument for there being year-round water in the area is still pretty solid, and based on the depth of the onyx deposits this water has probably been there for a very, very long time. The question of whether it is too mineralized to live on is a good one though...but let's hold off on any human experimentation of the theory for now...unless it's mcfez

just kidding man, you're cool.

One way or another, I'll make a trip to the arroyo myself this year. It's just been too fun to study about for me not to go.

I loved that BBC video that TW posted the other day, and one thing in it has peaked my attention. The climate change that has taken place in Baja during the last 15,000 years has been tremendous if they are correct in what they showed. If the majority of the peninsula had pine and oak forests that slowly changed into arid desert during the last 15,000 years, then the Baja residents that they are dating to thousands of years ago might have lived in a significantly different Baja than we know today. I've done a little googleing and haven't come across any climate data one way or the other for the last 15,000 years. Does anybody know if they are correct? and if they are correct, can somebody give any insights about how quickly things changed over those years?

Souds, good I will keep checking this thread for info..I hope DK goes with us..or any nomads that would like to acompany us in this crazzy quest..
Elbeu, next time we see ya, you are going to have to buy the Victorias(cerveza), Pacifico's are so overated,(sorry DENNIS)..