Megadrought Predictions

When man continues to display active ignorance and expects God to cover for his indiscretions and ignorant behaviours, that not only scary, it's stupid.....



Of course, the USGS must have hatched this 108 year old data just to satisfy Gods ability to hurry up and fix the problems that humans have created.....

Quote: Originally posted by monoloco

Quote: Originally posted by bezzell   Where else have you seen such a colossal display of utter ignorance ... ?? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/06/jim-inhofe-genesis_... It's pretty sad when the chairman of the Environment and Public Works Committee, sites scripture as the reason to disregard science.

Which could be viewed as a significant "flaw" in our current system of government ... which would allow an individual lacking in all area's of necessary knowledge in the "field" of environmental science and/or planning, for the future ... being placed into this position, at THIS time ...

Kinda like the guy that was in charge of the Department of Interior ... who allowed for the "drilling" on leases in the Gulf of Mexico .... without proper "controls" in place to preclude a "release" from those same "drilling" operations ... i.e. BP

Must say, it does pose a glimmer of hope for Pete ... in a government job



[Edited on 3-6-2015 by wessongroup]

Quote: Originally posted by Sweetwater

When man continues to display active ignorance and expects God to cover for his indiscretions and ignorant behaviours, that not only scary, it's stupid..... Of course, the USGS must have hatched this 108 year old data just to satisfy Gods ability to hurry up and fix the problems that humans have created.....

Quote: Originally posted by David K

When man thinks he is greater or more pwerful than God, that's really scary and ignorant.

Quote: Originally posted by monoloco

Quote: Originally posted by bezzell   Where else have you seen such a colossal display of utter ignorance ... ?? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/03/06/jim-inhofe-genesis_... It's pretty sad when the chairman of the Environment and Public Works Committee, sites scripture as the reason to disregard science.

Which scientists? The ones who rely on government (taxpayers) to get paid (and will naturally say anything to keep the funding coming) or the true-independent climatologists, who don't need to screw up reports and turn graphs around to "make their fact look true".

Real science is the CONTINUED evaluation of data and they know the results are dynamic with new data. No real scientist can say the opinions of a few big government types are set in stone. How many devastating winters does the East Coast need to stop believing in Global Warming... enough to admit it wasn't warming any more than it is cooling in winter? A big whoop was made when they said we had the hottest year on record (it was a HALF degree above a previous RECORDED high)... but how long have they had accurate temperature recordings, 100 years? How long has man walked the planet, and made fires, a million???

In the 1970's "scientists" said we were entering a new ICE AGE and tried to think of ways to WARM the planet. The Soviet Union was proposing placing a magnifying glass in orbit over Siberia!

Sea levels rising was predicted by these "scientists"... WHEN? All at once? Because the level of the sea is still the same.

THE TRUTH? Well maybe we should live clean and not eat meat, and drive a Prius... but sacrifice all you want and hand over more money to the government... the climate will still do whatever it was going to do anyway... and the millions of people in India, China, and most everywhere else are not going to do ANYTHING different.

I just want my fellow Nomad amigos to THINK for themselves, use your own observations, and not blindly be led about by some big government talker who flies all around in his/her own jet and maintains mansions with heated pools while insisting YOU are responsible for global warming and you must sacrifice and you must pay more for energy.

Please stay free and independent, don't become mind-numbed robots spreading this junk science all based on theory and conjecture.

Have a great weekend!

for what its worth

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Which scientists? The ones who rely on government (taxpayers) to get paid (and will naturally say anything to keep the funding coming) or the true-independent climatologists, who don't need to screw up reports and turn graphs around to "make their fact look true". Real science is the CONTINUED evaluation of data and they know the results are dynamic with new data. No real scientist can say the opinions of a few big government types are set in stone. How many devastating winters does the East Coast need to stop believing in Global Warming... enough to admit it wasn't warming any more than it is cooling in winter? A big whoop was made when they said we had the hottest year on record (it was a HALF degree above a previous RECORDED high)... but how long have they had accurate temperature recordings, 100 years? How long has man walked the planet, and made fires, a million??? In the 1970's "scientists" said we were entering a new ICE AGE and tried to think of ways to WARM the planet. The Soviet Union was proposing placing a magnifying glass in orbit over Siberia! Sea levels rising was predicted by these "scientists"... WHEN? All at once? Because the level of the sea is still the same. THE TRUTH? Well maybe we should live clean and not eat meat, and drive a Prius... but sacrifice all you want and hand over more money to the government... the climate will still do whatever it was going to do anyway... and the millions of people in India, China, and most everywhere else are not going to do ANYTHING different. I just want my fellow Nomad amigos to THINK for themselves, use your own observations, and not blindly be led about by some big government talker who flies all around in his/her own jet and maintains mansions with heated pools while insisting YOU are responsible for global warming and you must sacrifice and you must pay more for energy. Please stay free and independent, don't become mind-numbed robots spreading this junk science all based on theory and conjecture. Have a great weekend!

Quote: Originally posted by David K

When man thinks he is greater or more pwerful than God, that's really scary and ignorant.

This may be the most insane non-Baja related statement you have ever made David. Doug, can you ban this nut job? Maybe at least tell him to drag his crap to OFF-TOPIC where he belongs!!!

Still an important discussion which needs to be "chewed" on, as it is and/or will be impacting the way we were brought up and how our children's, children will be "viewing" things in 29-35 years .... I'll be long done as will many posting here

On the facts thingy .... if some really want them .. facts and all the rest can be found here ... http://www.pnas.org



And Publish or die, is also true in the field of science, be it private or government ... so if they ain't publishing their "work" ... what does that mean in the scope of things

Working in private industry, is much different than government work ... and really different if ya run your own business and make a living at it ... will say, they get much the same in job description ... the bigger the numbers ...

I'm still hoping things will change, and with changes, that are workable and reasonable for all ... kinda like "rice stubble" burning in the Central Valley

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0269749109...

Never easy .. but, when ya can't breath ... ya have to do something

[Edited on 3-7-2015 by wessongroup]

Quote: Originally posted by LancairDriver

DK sure brings out the rabid name callers and mainstream media Kool Aid drinkers. If there was at least one achiever in any area in the group with any personal credibility engaging in this drivel it would be more interesting than disgusting. Can't disagreement with another opinion simply be ignored or at least respond with facts or personal observations instead of childish name calling? It is amazing how small minds respond to minor irritations.

Quote: Originally posted by LancairDriver

DK sure brings out the rabid name callers and mainstream media Kool Aid drinkers. If there was at least one achiever in any area in the group with any personal credibility engaging in this drivel it would be more interesting than disgusting. Can't disagreement with another opinion simply be ignored or at least respond with facts or personal observations instead of childish name calling? It is amazing how small minds respond to minor irritations.

Quote: Originally posted by David K

I have never called anyone here ignorant or any other of the names used on me.

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Instead of laughing icons, do you have any proof? I would rather apologize for something I really did than something you think I did.

Proof? Isn't that what this thread is about?

Re proof about dk's insults, I will leave that to other researchers.

Yeah sure, you could start by apologizing to anyone covered by your blanket statement that anyone who didn't believe that your God's work couldn't be altered by humans was ignorant.

I read your response this morning and focused on your highly evolved argument that global sea levels were not rising because YOU didn't notice any difference, through personal observation, when you stood on the beach. I even went so far as to do a little reading about the more than 20 years of international science data that proves you wrong. I'm speaking of the TOPEX/Poseidon mission in the early 90's, continuing with the first Jason satellite, then on to Jason 2, and stopped reading when I learned how many more measurements of different kinds in the last few years had confirmed those findings. I invite you to read a recent United Nations report about the effect of sea level rise on the 42 (SIDS) member states. It wouldn't surprise me if you claimed that Al Gore had paid all these people to lie about their research. For that reason I came to my senses and decided to present some relevant Nomad research of my own.

I no longer believe that the fish tacos at Tacos don Ramon across from the ball park in Bahia Asuncion are the best in BCS. As a result of larger fish portions, (obvious by visual observation), a larger selection of unique salsas,(same method of data collection), and a less salty batter recipe, (strictly a subjective determination) I have concluded that it is worth considering that the fish tacos at Tacos la Baja, in Vizcaino are a superior variety. As a result of the prohibitive 148 mile round trip to Tacos la Baja, I will be satisfied today with these local things! I feel sorry for you for several reasons, but today I will limit that to feeling sorry that you can't stroll through this delightful little Mexican fishing village and order some for yourself.

Quote: Originally posted by vgabndo

Yeah sure, you could start by apologizing to anyone covered by your blanket statement that anyone who didn't believe that your God's work couldn't be altered by humans was ignorant. I read your response this morning and focused on your highly evolved argument that global sea levels were not rising because YOU didn't notice any difference, through personal observation, when you stood on the beach. I even went so far as to do a little reading about the more than 20 years of international science data that proves you wrong. I'm speaking of the TOPEX/Poseidon mission in the early 90's, continuing with the first Jason satellite, then on to Jason 2, and stopped reading when I learned how many more measurements of different kinds in the last few years had confirmed those findings. I invite you to read a recent United Nations report about the effect of sea level rise on the 42 (SIDS) member states. It wouldn't surprise me if you claimed that Al Gore had paid all these people to lie about their research. For that reason I came to my senses and decided to present some relevant Nomad research of my own. I no longer believe that the fish tacos at Tacos don Ramon across from the ball park in Bahia Asuncion are the best in BCS. As a result of larger fish portions, (obvious by visual observation), a larger selection of unique salsas,(same method of data collection), and a less salty batter recipe, (strictly a subjective determination) I have concluded that it is worth considering that the fish tacos at Tacos la Baja, in Vizcaino are a superior variety. As a result of the prohibitive 148 mile round trip to Tacos la Baja, I will be satisfied today with these local things! I feel sorry for you for several reasons, but today I will limit that to feeling sorry that you can't stroll through this delightful little Mexican fishing village and order some for yourself.

Unlike the oil companies and the altruistic "climate realists" whose motives are only the truth, those self serving money grubbing "climate scientists" have much to lose if they were to actually release accurate data.

Quote: Originally posted by David K

The San Cosme Hot Springs (in rocks), is still the same point above sea level... How come? Is Baja tilting perhaps?

Woo hoo, you blew a few hundred million dollars worth of high tech scientific equipment out of the sky with that personal observation. Are you on the oil company's payroll like like the independent scientist Willie Soon?

I'm waiting for you to defend Willie Soon and to provide documentation that the Ocean Surface Topography Mission is all falsified data created by a giant multi-national conspiracy to make you look foolish.

Quote: Originally posted by David K

The San Cosme Hot Springs (in rocks), is still the same point above sea level... How come? Is Baja tilting perhaps?

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.

A warning from a Scientist: http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/01/14/mit-professor-urging-c... Enter into your search engine "MIT professor on global warming" to see more links. Barry

Quote: Originally posted by vgabndo

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.   A warning from a Scientist: http://boston.cbslocal.com/2014/01/14/mit-professor-urging-c... Enter into your search engine "MIT professor on global warming" to see more links. Barry Do another Google search and learn that Richard Lindzen, whom you cite, is one of the tiny 3% who cling to a belief in opposition to the scientific consensus. You will also find plenty of information about how he has also been on the oil company's payrolls for years. He has recently claimed that he is no longer on Exxon/Mobil's payroll. His oil company opinions were discredited many pages ago in this thread. [Edited on 3-7-2015 by vgabndo]

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.

MIT seems to like him. Last time I checked MIT and it's staff was a fairly accredited school in "technical matters".

Quote: Originally posted by norte

Lindzen retired in 2013. Besides, God will send a message to David if and when the sea levels are rising.

Retired, eh. No wonder he is now able to give his REAL view on matters without fear of damage caused by the retribution and ridicule from his (tolerant) Liberal peers which has already begun.

As for your comments about David and God--------I think I hear thunder------------and possibly being listed by ISIS for neck-chopping or fire.

Be careful out there as you will get no help or sympathy from the Pres. on matters such as this.

Barry

Quote: Originally posted by vgabndo

Quote: Originally posted by David K   The San Cosme Hot Springs (in rocks), is still the same point above sea level... How come? Is Baja tilting perhaps? Woo hoo, you blew a few hundred million dollars worth of high tech scientific equipment out of the sky with that personal observation. Are you on the oil company's payroll like like the independent scientist Willie Soon? I'm waiting for you to defend Willie Soon and to provide documentation that the Ocean Surface Topography Mission is all falsified data created by a giant multi-national conspiracy to make you look foolish.

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote: Originally posted by norte   Lindzen retired in 2013. Besides, God will send a message to David if and when the sea levels are rising. Retired, eh. No wonder he is now able to give his REAL view on matters without fear of damage caused by the retribution and ridicule from his (tolerant) Liberal peers which has already begun. As for your comments about David and God--------I think I hear thunder------------and possibly being listed by ISIS for neck-chopping or fire. Be careful out there as you will get no help or sympathy from the Pres. on matters such as this. Barry

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Norte, when just one volcano erupts, it dwarfs all of man's pollution in output... and volcanoes erupt all over the world since the beginning of time. Nature has a mechanism to balance this. Every so often, Nature 're-boots', so watch out... there's NOTHING you can do about that! I hate pollution and I don't even smoke, never have, I love the outdoors... so because I am against big government, taxing the working people to death, and insane regulations on life, does NOT mean I am for polluting corporations or polluting government operations (too many dirty socialist run industries in the rest of the world to name).

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Norte, when just one volcano erupts, it dwarfs all of man's pollution in output... and volcanoes erupt all over the world since the beginning of time. Nature has a mechanism to balance this. Every so often, Nature 're-boots', so watch out... there's NOTHING you can do about that! I hate pollution and I don't even smoke, never have, I love the outdoors... so because I am against big government, taxing the working people to death, and insane regulations on life, does NOT mean I am for polluting corporations or polluting government operations (too many dirty socialist run industries in the rest of the world to name).

Here are some of Professor Richard Lindzen, of MIT, thoughts as published at the National Academy of Science

Simple search using the individuals name

http://www.pnas.org/search?fulltext=Richard+S.+Lindzen&s...

Draw you own conclusions ... that is still allowed

Quote: Originally posted by norte

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.   Quote: Originally posted by norte   Lindzen retired in 2013. Besides, God will send a message to David if and when the sea levels are rising. Retired, eh. No wonder he is now able to give his REAL view on matters without fear of damage caused by the retribution and ridicule from his (tolerant) Liberal peers which has already begun. As for your comments about David and God--------I think I hear thunder------------and possibly being listed by ISIS for neck-chopping or fire. Be careful out there as you will get no help or sympathy from the Pres. on matters such as this. Barry I am sure the families of the departed would appreciate your IS (ISIS) comment.. Back to the topic and comments relative to GOD and climate, how would anyone not believe that the things that human beings do would effect the environment and climate. It seems rather obvious, whether it be consuming resources or contributing to the state of nature through byproducts of consumption.

It is after all a matter of "scale" ...

One billion people ... compared to _________ billion

And they all require: food, water, shelter, medicine et al

The larger the scale, the greater the impact ... kinda like comets, volcanoes and individual species .. they all have "impact" ... just a matter of the "scale" of the impact


[Edited on 3-7-2015 by wessongroup]

Quote: Originally posted by wessongroup

It is after all a matter of "scale" ... One billion people ... compared to _________ billion And they all require: food, water, shelter, medicine et al The larger the scale, the greater the impact ... kinda like comets, volcanoes and individual species .. they all have "impact" ... just a matter of the "scale" of the impact [Edited on 3-7-2015 by wessongroup]

Saw much the same with Ag land in CA and many other states where we saw huge growth in the 60s and 70s and of course in the 90s and up just past the mid way in the 2000s ..

We have been "planting" house and/or buildings for some time ... there is after all, only so much good land to grow on ... or "raise" cattle ... which is important too

Not sure if "more" will turn the corner on this one ...

As for trends ... this still says quite a bit .. IMHO as it relates to "scale"

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy

What was it 200, 300 or 400,000,000 years ago? Even 350,000 years ago is but minute fraction of time since the dinosaurs. Would we watch 3 mins of the stock ticker and then predict what the market will do 20 years from now knowing its past history? Too little information monitored over too short a time span to make determinate predictions. Follow the money.

The "spike" which is causing the "concern" ... isn't any of those .... those are BELOW that one line, which covers the time frame being discussed from sampling and hence of no immediate concern to all life and/or all the environment as we know and understand it, at this time

The ice core sample represent the environment for over 650,00 years as it relates to "CO2" levels found in the atmosphere ... ya know the air

And the spike of concern, centers on 1950 when consumption of fossil fuels used increased about 10 million barrels a day

Or at lest that is the way I see and understand it ... which is unusual, I'm not usually in step with the majority thought in most cases ...

Take it easy ... going to go watch ... Band of Brothers

Quote: Originally posted by wessongroup

The "spike" which is causing the "concern" ... isn't any of those .... those are BELOW that one line, which covers the time frame being discussed from sampling and hence of no immediate concern to all life and/or all the environment as we know and understand it, at this time The ice core sample represent the environment for over 650,00 years as it relates to "CO2" levels found in the atmosphere ... ya know the air And the spike of concern, centers on 1950 when consumption of fossil fuels used increased about 10 million barrels a day Or at lest that is the way I see and understand it ... which is unusual, I'm not usually in step with the majority thought in most cases ... Take it easy ... going to go watch ... Band of Brothers

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Norte, when just one volcano erupts, it dwarfs all of man's pollution in output... and volcanoes erupt all over the world since the beginning of time.

Is this a joke? Are you deliberately trying to present yourself as an out-of-touch joke?? What's going on here??
It's 2015, and you're still crying "the volcanos, the volcanos'"!! (???)

Volcanos have released not even 1% of what man has released, since we've been busy.
Over the eons ... YES the volcanos have released more than man has AND ever will ... but that's over a 4.5 billion period !!!
What's more ... the volcano effect is actually cooling.
Such a joke

Appear's just typing a response is getting harder and harder ... typed and then uploaded to Photobucket ..





Let us know what ya find out Barry.... I'm satisfied that there was a period of CO2 at the levels found through the ice sampling which were well below the current levels and the projected increases based on science and/or sampling/monitoring of the planet by science at this time ...

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy

Many years ago there was a big climatic scare that the "ozone hole" was coming due to Freon. So we had to drop R-12 and go to now a third higher cost refrigerant. BTW, we couldn't use butane/propane mix which is a better refrigerant than what we have now (along with no effect on the atmosphere) because DuPont held all the patents on the new stuff AND B/P is far cheaper to use also. So what ever happened to the big scare on the ozone hole???? Where did all the money go? What ever happened to all the "research" being paid for by tax dollars on the ozone issue? Did it just slide over to something else more newsworthy? Something else that needed funding to keep everyone busy and paid? It's no different than carbon offsets that Gore is making money with! Again, follow the money!

As for the Ozone ... It was approach through Laws and Regulations which reduced the amount of materials that were depleting the Ozone, via compromise between Industry and Government which were intended to provide for Production of Goods and Services without shutting down the entire world

Most of the data collected was in the 70s and was finally brought to center stage with the Montreal Protocol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montreal_Protocol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone_depletion

And it wasn't just a couple of materials ... there were many which were giving problems to: soil, water, air and other forms of life ... and still are

Ask the Bee's ...





[Edited on 3-9-2015 by wessongroup]

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy

So as I surmise from this paragraph from the Ozone Depletion article, CFCs were banned on bad or false information. Why then do we want to depend on extrapolations today?

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.

What's the theory for the cause of the 5 spikes in CO2 which seem pretty cyclic during the past 650K years, do you know? Barry

Good article, thanks KurtG.

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Of course don't trash the planet, but man isn't destroying the earth. CO2 is also a NATURAL gas, and NOT a pollutant. It is what all plants need to live!!! .

Thanks, Einstein!!

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Refreshing to hear others with some common sense and not driven by drama and hysteria. The world is a lot bigger than people think and Nature is not given credit for the power it/ she has, which is far, far greater than anything man does. Humans occupy such a tiny % of the planter's surface. You don't have to go far out to sea to not see land, and that is what most of the earth is, oceans! Of course don't trash the planet, but man isn't destroying the earth. CO2 is also a NATURAL gas, and NOT a pollutant. It is what all plants need to live!!! Climate Change fear is a tool used by those who want your money and to run your lives. Green technology is great, but let's have it without the hypocrisy! If it is better, than people will choose it. The free market is how it will succeed, not by government mandates.

Quote: Originally posted by bezzell

Thanks, Einstein!!

Quote: Originally posted by LancairDriver

Quote: Originally posted by bezzell   Thanks, Einstein!! Now there is a truly brilliant contribution to the topic.

Fair enough, and obviously over your head (no offense)
In an actual greenhouse, where you're able to control ALL variables (light / temp / nutrients etc), you ARE able to increase plant growth with increased C02. BUT, in the real world ... with a myriad of variables that are not controlled ... the analogy is nothing short of ridiburrous! And excess C02 ends up being no bueno.
Stay tuned.
It's the ultimate Ni Modo.

edit ps: you're not going to start yelling 'volcanos' are ya !?

[Edited on 3-9-2015 by bezzell]

Quote: Originally posted by bezzell

Quote: Originally posted by LancairDriver   Quote: Originally posted by bezzell   Thanks, Einstein!! Now there is a truly brilliant contribution to the topic. Fair enough, and obviously over your head (no offense) In an actual greenhouse, where you're able to control ALL variables (light / temp / nutrients etc), you ARE able to increase plant growth with increased C02. BUT, in the real world ... with a myriad of variables that are not controlled ... the analogy is nothing short of ridiburrous! And excess C02 ends up being no bueno. Stay tuned. It's the ultimate Ni Modo. edit ps: you're not going to start yelling 'volcanos' are ya !? [Edited on 3-9-2015 by bezzell]

Quote: Originally posted by LancairDriver

Thanks to the Internet and Google we can all now appear as experts on any topic that comes up, and can cherry pick our favorite from hundreds of sources. Pick your topic expert du jour and quote verbatim, and viola! we have instant credibility..

Hence, stick to the SCIENCE from the referee journal.
Very simple.

(or, there's always Michael Savage !!)

[Edited on 3-9-2015 by bezzell]

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Hydro Electric is a lot cheaper than coal. Environmentalist have stopped dam building, however.

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy

Here's another of my postulations- Let's talk solar panels? Life span of panels? 10 to 15 years. Cost recap rate vs other sources- 10 to 15 years. Net- 0 sum game.

Quote: Originally posted by monoloco

Quote: Originally posted by David K   Hydro Electric is a lot cheaper than coal. Environmentalist have stopped dam building, however. Thank God, otherwise we'd have no wild rivers or salmon.

Quote: Originally posted by monoloco

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy   Here's another of my postulations- Let's talk solar panels? Life span of panels? 10 to 15 years. Cost recap rate vs other sources- 10 to 15 years. Net- 0 sum game. I have solar panels that have been in service for almost 20 years old and are still producing over 95% of their original capacity. Those are 75 watt panels that cost around $500 a piece when new, now the cost of solar panels is less than a dollar a watt.

Florida Leads The Way

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote: Originally posted by monoloco   Quote: Originally posted by David K   Hydro Electric is a lot cheaper than coal. Environmentalist have stopped dam building, however. Thank God, otherwise we'd have no wild rivers or salmon. ------and in the grand scheme of things, "salmon" and "wild rivers" fit in where???? I love to fish, and ran wild and non-wild rivers professionally for years, but really?!?!?!? Barry

More dams? The current dams in the USA are about to cost a lot of money! They are not forever. The history and effects of the Answan dam in Egypt are interesting.

This report is from MIT which you seemed to agree with as long as that one "scientist" worked there. This certainly is not the only report out there.

http://web.mit.edu/12.000/www/m2012/finalwebsite/problem/dams.shtml

The Wild River Act was passed for the same reason the Wilderness Acts were passed. It is to protect for the future some of the beautiful parts of nature that we are fortunate to have --- keep them unspoiled to be enjoyed future generations.

Which one of these rivers would you like to see stopped up with a "beautiful" new dam?

http://www.rivers.gov/

Shoot, when Mulholland gathered up the water from here for Los Angeles, he also thought the Merced in Yosemite Valley and all of the watersheds over there should be gathered up. All he could see was a lot of water going to waste. As he said, There it is, take it.

So you are not alone in thinking that more rivers should have dams.





[Edited on 3-9-2015 by DianaT]

Quote: Originally posted by DianaT

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.   Quote: Originally posted by monoloco   Quote: Originally posted by David K   Hydro Electric is a lot cheaper than coal. Environmentalist have stopped dam building, however. Thank God, otherwise we'd have no wild rivers or salmon. ------and in the grand scheme of things, "salmon" and "wild rivers" fit in where???? I love to fish, and ran wild and non-wild rivers professionally for years, but really?!?!?!? Barry More dams? The current dams in the USA are about to cost a lot of money! They are not forever. The history and effects of the Answan dam in Egypt are interesting. This report is from MIT which you seemed to agree with as long as that one "scientist" worked there. This certainly is not the only report out there. http://web.mit.edu/12.000/www/m2012/finalwebsite/problem/dams.shtml The Wild River Act was passed for the same reason the Wilderness Acts were passed. It is to protect for the future some of the beautiful parts of nature that we are fortunate to have --- keep them unspoiled to be enjoyed future generations. Which one of these rivers would you like to see stopped up with a "beautiful" new dam? http://www.rivers.gov/ Shoot, when Mulholland was up here gathering up water for Los Angeles, he popped over to Yosemite and proposed damning up the Merced in Yosemite valley because all he could see was a lot of water going to waste. So you are not alone in thinking that more rivers should have dams. [Edited on 3-9-2015 by DianaT]

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote: Originally posted by monoloco   Quote: Originally posted by David K   Hydro Electric is a lot cheaper than coal. Environmentalist have stopped dam building, however. Thank God, otherwise we'd have no wild rivers or salmon. ------and in the grand scheme of things, "salmon" and "wild rivers" fit in where???? I love to fish, and ran wild and non-wild rivers professionally for years, but really?!?!?!? Barry

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote: Originally posted by monoloco   Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy   Here's another of my postulations- Let's talk solar panels? Life span of panels? 10 to 15 years. Cost recap rate vs other sources- 10 to 15 years. Net- 0 sum game. I have solar panels that have been in service for almost 20 years old and are still producing over 95% of their original capacity. Those are 75 watt panels that cost around $500 a piece when new, now the cost of solar panels is less than a dollar a watt. My sister and Bro-in-law installed solar on their new house in San Diego, and also in their second home in Borrego Springs, both about 20 years ago------------neither ever worked well at all, and both systems were abandoned after having thousands in supposed repairs made----------?!?!?!?!?! Very discouraging!!! Presumably the "new" systems are improved??? Barry

Here is an interesting way to deal with it

Quote: Originally posted by monoloco

Barry, I was responding to DK's suggestion that we should just let the free market decide where we get our power. My point is that if we only used market based criteria, we would have dammed ALL the rivers with hydro potential long ago, we would have a lot more coal burning plants, and it's likely that solar would have never been developed. In the grand scheme of things, the salmon runs on those rivers provide employment for fishermen, 100's of millions in economic activity, and high quality protein. [Edited on 3-9-2015 by monoloco]

Quote: Originally posted by David K

So you don't trust people to want to buy cleaner energy? Don't you want to?

Quote: Originally posted by David K

..... If government were removed from the mix, energy would be cheaper. [Edited on 3-9-2015 by David K]

David,

Your comments are so anti-government most of the time, I am wondering if you think we would all be better off with no "government" at all.

What amount and kind of benefits do you enjoy as a result of any form of "government" taxation and subsequent benefits provided?

Just curious, as you seem to drop your government-hater innuendos quite frequently.

Quote: Originally posted by monoloco

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.   Quote: Originally posted by monoloco   Quote: Originally posted by David K   Hydro Electric is a lot cheaper than coal. Environmentalist have stopped dam building, however. Thank God, otherwise we'd have no wild rivers or salmon. ------and in the grand scheme of things, "salmon" and "wild rivers" fit in where???? I love to fish, and ran wild and non-wild rivers professionally for years, but really?!?!?!? Barry Barry, I was responding to DK's suggestion that we should just let the free market decide where we get our power. My point is that if we only used market based criteria, we would have dammed ALL the rivers with hydro potential long ago, we would have a lot more coal burning plants, and it's likely that solar would have never been developed. In the grand scheme of things, the salmon runs on those rivers provide employment for fishermen, 100's of millions in economic activity, and high quality protein. [Edited on 3-9-2015 by monoloco]

There always seems to be "the rest of the story". Ain't it grand????

Barry

Quote: Originally posted by motoged

Quote: Originally posted by David K   ..... If government were removed from the mix, energy would be cheaper. [Edited on 3-9-2015 by David K] David, Your comments are so anti-government most of the time, I am wondering if you think we would all be better off with no "government" at all. What amount and kind of benefits do you enjoy as a result of any form of "government" taxation and subsequent benefits provided? Just curious, as you seem to drop your government-hater innuendos quite frequently.

Quote: Originally posted by David K

What history has shown: A government that governs least, governs best. Places with the most government fail, are corrupt, or are prisons: Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea are examples of what more government is like.

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.

Quote: Originally posted by monoloco   Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.   Quote: Originally posted by monoloco   Quote: Originally posted by David K   Hydro Electric is a lot cheaper than coal. Environmentalist have stopped dam building, however. Thank God, otherwise we'd have no wild rivers or salmon. ------and in the grand scheme of things, "salmon" and "wild rivers" fit in where???? I love to fish, and ran wild and non-wild rivers professionally for years, but really?!?!?!? Barry Barry, I was responding to DK's suggestion that we should just let the free market decide where we get our power. My point is that if we only used market based criteria, we would have dammed ALL the rivers with hydro potential long ago, we would have a lot more coal burning plants, and it's likely that solar would have never been developed. In the grand scheme of things, the salmon runs on those rivers provide employment for fishermen, 100's of millions in economic activity, and high quality protein. [Edited on 3-9-2015 by monoloco] There always seems to be "the rest of the story". Ain't it grand???? Barry

Quote: Originally posted by mtgoat666

Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.   Quote: Originally posted by monoloco   Quote: Originally posted by Barry A.   Quote: Originally posted by monoloco   Quote: Originally posted by David K   Hydro Electric is a lot cheaper than coal. Environmentalist have stopped dam building, however. Thank God, otherwise we'd have no wild rivers or salmon. ------and in the grand scheme of things, "salmon" and "wild rivers" fit in where???? I love to fish, and ran wild and non-wild rivers professionally for years, but really?!?!?!? Barry Barry, I was responding to DK's suggestion that we should just let the free market decide where we get our power. My point is that if we only used market based criteria, we would have dammed ALL the rivers with hydro potential long ago, we would have a lot more coal burning plants, and it's likely that solar would have never been developed. In the grand scheme of things, the salmon runs on those rivers provide employment for fishermen, 100's of millions in economic activity, and high quality protein. [Edited on 3-9-2015 by monoloco] There always seems to be "the rest of the story". Ain't it grand???? Barry often the best things in life come with costs. like sex, drugs and rock-n-roll, goofing off, daredevil thrills, and wide open wilderness. wilderness and wild rivers may provide greater benefit to man in a natural state, a benefit that outweighs it's resource extraction value. just because you can make a buck off a natural resource does not mean mining is the best and highest use of the natural resource, eh?

Hmmmm, I may see our problem here, Goat. I have never paid for ANY of the things you say have a "cost", that I can think of.

Barry

Quote: Originally posted by David K

Quote: Originally posted by motoged   Quote: Originally posted by David K   ..... If government were removed from the mix, energy would be cheaper. [Edited on 3-9-2015 by David K] David, Your comments are so anti-government most of the time, I am wondering if you think we would all be better off with no "government" at all. What amount and kind of benefits do you enjoy as a result of any form of "government" taxation and subsequent benefits provided? Just curious, as you seem to drop your government-hater innuendos quite frequently. No Ged, I am not an anarchist, I am a firm believer in the Constitution and that it is the rule book for all national government activities. Government is needed at all levels in a society, but within its specified boundaries. Citizens do not need or should have a nanny government. Time to grow up and be responsible! What history has shown: A government that governs least, governs best. Places with the most government fail, are corrupt, or are prisons: Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea are examples of what more government is like.

Quote: Originally posted by Mexitron

Quote: Originally posted by David K   Quote: Originally posted by motoged   Quote: Originally posted by David K   ..... If government were removed from the mix, energy would be cheaper. [Edited on 3-9-2015 by David K] David, Your comments are so anti-government most of the time, I am wondering if you think we would all be better off with no "government" at all. What amount and kind of benefits do you enjoy as a result of any form of "government" taxation and subsequent benefits provided? Just curious, as you seem to drop your government-hater innuendos quite frequently. No Ged, I am not an anarchist, I am a firm believer in the Constitution and that it is the rule book for all national government activities. Government is needed at all levels in a society, but within its specified boundaries. Citizens do not need or should have a nanny government. Time to grow up and be responsible! What history has shown: A government that governs least, governs best. Places with the most government fail, are corrupt, or are prisons: Soviet Union, Cuba, North Korea are examples of what more government is like. Honduras is currently going through a "less" government (libertarian) experiment, perhaps you should look into this David: http://www.economist.com/node/21541391 An opinion of a traveler there: http://www.salon.com/2015/03/02/my_libertarian_vacation_nigh...

Quote: Originally posted by Cliffy

An example of going WAAAYYY overboard Just west of Las Vegas is a wilderness area. No problem with it being there. Then someone wanted to buy an old cement mining operation about 4 miles due east of the wilderness line to build homes. All of a sudden we had to have a "Buffer Zone" of no building to "protect the border of the wilderness zone! How far do you suspect that buffer zone went to the east? You guessed it, just past the mine area.

Quote: Originally posted by David K

........ David, Your comments are so anti-government most of the time, I am wondering if you think we would all be better off with no "government" at all. What amount and kind of benefits do you enjoy as a result of any form of "government" taxation and subsequent benefits provided? Just curious, as you seem to drop your government-hater innuendos quite frequently. [/rquote] No Ged, I am not an anarchist, I am a firm believer in the Constitution and that it is the rule book for all national government activities. Government is needed at all levels in a society, but within its specified boundaries. Citizens do not need or should have a nanny government. Time to grow up and be responsible! What history has shown: A government that governs least, governs best......

David,
Well, I did not suggest you were an anarchist....an anachronism, perhaps, but not an anarchist....

But you didn't reply as to "What amount and kind of benefits do you enjoy as a result of any form of "government" taxation and subsequent benefits provided?"....and which of those services/benefits would not be in effect in your minimalist government ?