BajaNomad - BEV's, Hybrids and/or Independent Solar in Baja

The only LiFePO4 batteries presently made in US seem to be the Battle Born small sized ones. But I read Rivian has begun assembling their own LiFePO4 in US, so perhaps they are also making the components. Their new smaller SUV (45,000) is planned on being their best seller by volume after their recent manufacturing cost cutting. Maybe...maybe not. It seems almost everyone is transitioning to LiFePO4 chemistry

Meanwhile, the big Chinese battery giants CATL, BYD and others presently supplying Ford, Toyota, VW and others are building their first Sodium Ion battery plants and producing now. They have less energy density, replace the lithium with sodium , are far cheaper to make from very inexpensive non-polluting byproducts and will be used in the even less expensive EV's coming out soon using them. This technology was ideally suited to NA manufacturing especially for solar storage due to ready access to the materials used, but once again China got the jump on us in R & D and NA let it pass.

[Edited on 6-25-2024 by JDCanuck]

Non polluting byproduct? Really?

JDCanuck - 6-24-2024 at 07:50 PM

Sodium Carbonate (common washing soda) and metal filings from metal lathing are the primary constituents. We had researched this and considered it for years in batteries but lithium had a bit higher energy density so we went with lithium. Chinese Engineering has boosted the energy density to close to lithium and its far less pollution causing to obtain than the cobalt and lithium used in lithium batteries. Also a safer chemistry, but we knew that decades ago.
Whats really surprising is how fast they could build the plants and start producing these new batteries that they are already installing in their cheapest EV's.

From Wikipedia:
SIBs received academic and commercial interest in the 2010s and early 2020s, largely due to lithium's high cost, uneven geographic distribution, and environmentally-damaging extraction process. An obvious advantage of sodium is its natural abundance,[2] particularly in saltwater. Another factor is that cobalt, copper and nickel are not required for many types of sodium-ion batteries,

[Edited on 6-25-2024 by JDCanuck]

oxxo - 6-24-2024 at 08:29 PM

Non polluting byproduct? Really?

Certainly less polluting than we humanoids!

Tioloco - 6-24-2024 at 08:31 PM

Non polluting byproduct? Really?

Certainly less polluting than we humanoids!

Please explain what that means....

JDCanuck - 6-24-2024 at 08:51 PM

Between Lithium Ion, LiFePO4, Sodium Ion, Super capacitors and solid state batteries, its impossible to guess where the future of rapid charging high density power storage is going in the next 5 years especially for EVs where weight/energy will become increasingly important.

oxxo - 6-25-2024 at 06:45 AM

Please explain what that means....

The meaning of "that":

(Webster's) referring to a specific thing previously known, or understood. (example) "I feel "that" I'm communicating with some illiterate first graders here."

Back on topic, the adoption of alternative, renewable non-polluting energy for transportation, utilities, and personal lifestyle has made a remarkable and measurable difference in air quality improvement in Californico. It is now required in Californico that ALL new construction must include solar panels. For the last three months, Californicans have existed on more alternative, non-polluting sources of energy (solar, wind, hydraulic, geothermal, etc.) than on non-renewable sources of energy (gasoline, oil, nuclear, natural gas, etc.) And new renewable sources of energy facilities are being built at a blistering pace! Right now, I am getting 50% of my potable water, including my landscaping with drip irrigation, from a de-sal plant. All new vehicle sales in Caiifornico must be 100% BEVs by 2030. "That" (previously known or understood) is something to cheer about! Baja California has an equal or greater opportunity to achieve the same results if their new environmentalist Presidente puts her mind to it! She could start with the population centers - Tijuana/Ensenada, Mexicali, La Paz, and Los Cabos - as a beginning.

[Edited on 6-25-2024 by oxxo]

oxxo - 6-25-2024 at 08:02 AM

I returned home from a work project in Palm Springs on this last Sunday evening. My drive was 2.25 hours. My BEV lied to me with its predicted results to reach my programmed destination. I actually arrived home 1 minute earlier than predicted, but I arrived with 32% of electrons left in my batteries rather than the 37% predicted at the start - I did run into some unexpected headwinds from the West, that effected all vehicles whether BEV, ICE, motorcycle, or horse and buggy (they must have been lost Amish, but I swear I saw a goat whiping that horse into a frenzy!!). I was driving westward into a setting sun which could have been very tiring. But I had the car on "driver assisted auto pilot", and with NINE cameras placed inconspicuously around the car, the car was just keying off the lane markings. I was attentive but relaxed as I could focus my eyes on something other than the setting sun for 100% of my drive. Self-driving has a way to go before it meets NHSTB Level 5 standards, but it is 100% better through no extra cost monthly, OTA, updates than when I purchased it 6 years ago. Just think what I can do with that car in Baja, once additional Superchargers are installed on Hwy 1. Seriously, it automatically will brake for cows in the middle of the road! (don't ask me how I know). C'mon Madame Presidente, let's git'er done!

Tioloco - 6-25-2024 at 08:09 AM

Please explain what that means....

ok, so you cant explain your "less polluting byproducts" statement. Lets stick to "feeling good" about saying we are environmentally conscientious and make fun of those that genuinely ask how something is going to make a positive difference.

EV's have positive and negative impacts on the environment. But we should be honest about both.

JDCanuck - 6-25-2024 at 08:29 AM

If the governments allow prices to fall and the most efficient, most durable batteries into the cars sold in NA, there won't be a need for mandates. The people will flock to EV's as they have in Europe. If they continue to protect the vehicles presently being manufactured or allowed without huge tariffs for sale, the transition will be a lot slower.
It's totally in their power to drive change.
At present, the governments want to mandate the citizens pay higher prices and fail to get the highest possible value for their investments, and this applies to solar panels and storage batteries as well. They have to decide whats more important, having the next 4 years of power for themselves or whats best for the country as a whole

[Edited on 6-25-2024 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 6-25-2024 at 08:47 AM

"ok, so you cant explain your "less polluting byproducts" statement."

That was my statement about the newer Sodium Ion batteries replacing the Lithium Ion batteries and what they use internally. Sodium is a very non-polluting and common element to obtain as a replacement for Lithium and cobalt which both cause a lot of damage in mining. The trade off at present is slightly heavier batteries (not a big issue in solar and wind storage batteries) and is being improved on with further developments, mainly in China and India for EV's.

[Edited on 6-25-2024 by JDCanuck]

mtgoat666 - 6-25-2024 at 08:47 AM

I returned home from a work project in Palm Springs on this last Sunday evening. My drive was 2.25 hours. My BEV lied to me with its predicted results to reach my programmed destination. I actually arrived home 1 minute earlier than predicted, but I arrived with 32% of electrons left in my batteries rather than the 37% predicted at the start - I did run into some unexpected headwinds from the West, that effected all vehicles whether BEV, ICE, motorcycle, or horse and buggy (they must have been lost Amish, but I swear I saw a goat whiping that horse into a frenzy!!). I was driving westward into a setting sun which could have been very tiring. But I had the car on "driver assisted auto pilot", and with NINE cameras placed inconspicuously around the car, the car was just keying off the lane markings. I was attentive but relaxed as I could focus my eyes on something other than the setting sun for 100% of my drive. Self-driving has a way to go before it meets NHSTB Level 5 standards, but it is 100% better through no extra cost monthly, OTA, updates than when I purchased it 6 years ago. Just think what I can do with that car in Baja, once additional Superchargers are installed on Hwy 1. Seriously, it automatically will brake for cows in the middle of the road! (don't ask me how I know). C'mon Madame Presidente, let's git'er done!

Does your self-driving avoid potholes and missing road? (My eyes are always looking for missing shoulder, those occasional gaps in fog line, when fog line is present). Does your tesla have a spare tire?

Teslas don't come with spare tire, do they provide sat phone to call for tire change anywhere along la baja? How long to get a tire change if you get a flat in pothole in catavina?

I used to get flats frequently with AT P metric tires. Now that i got truck tires i gave not had a flat in several years… even hitting the occasional pothole at 50 mph!

JDCanuck - 6-25-2024 at 09:01 AM

Pothole and Tope management is already available in the NIO in China with 4d sensors. A huge many times faster modern improvement on the old Citroen hydraulic systems that allowed them to drive down the freeway with three wheels. Its only a matter of time before some NA manufacturer copies this for both EV's and IC vehicles.

[Edited on 6-25-2024 by JDCanuck]

mtgoat666 - 6-25-2024 at 09:52 AM

Pothole and Tope management is already available in the NIO in China with 4d sensors. A huge many times faster modern improvement on the old Citroen hydraulic systems that allowed them to drive down the freeway with three wheels. Its only a matter of time before some NA manufacturer copies this for both EV's and IC vehicles.

[Edited on 6-25-2024 by JDCanuck]

Citroen ami looks cool for a neighborhood runabout

oxxo - 6-25-2024 at 10:57 AM

Quote:

Does your self-driving avoid potholes and missing road?

YES.

Quote:

Does your tesla have a spare tire?

NO. Many ICE cars don't come with a spare tire today. Are you keep'n up goat, Keep'n up? There is a hatch below the trunk in a Tesla for a donut tire if you feel the need for it. In 70+K miles, I have never had a flat.

Quote:

Teslas don't come with spare tire,

If you already know that, why are you asking me that question? Don't be a silly burro goat.

Quote:

do they provide sat phone to call for tire change anywhere along la baja?

What car mfg, provides a Sat phone as standard equipment? Did your buggy come with a Sat phone? I have a Sat phone and I purchased it myself.

Quote:

How long to get a tire change if you get a flat in pothole in catavina?

I don't know, I've never had a flat in Catavina. But you obviously know because you have a flat there with your "truck tires." Mira, if I ever had a flat in Catavina, I wouldn't be a lazy burro goat and just pull my donut spare tire out and change it myself.

AIRLESS TIRES ON THE HORIZON FOR TESLA

https://electrek.co/2024/06/25/tesla-talks-use-michelins-air...

Advantages: no flats ever, lighter and more efficient, replaceable tread, and "their biggest impact is expected to be environmental by significantly reducing tire scraps."

Disadvantages: Perhaps more expensive initially but less expensive in the long run.

"If you can have new tire technologies that enable better structural integrity or replaceable tire surfaces, you can improve the already positive impact that EVs have on the environment."

JDCanuck - 6-25-2024 at 05:31 PM

BYD planning huge EV plant in Mexico...sales surging in Latin America, mainly Brazil:
https://electrek.co/2024/06/21/byd-huge-mexico-ev-plant-deal...

oxxo - 6-25-2024 at 06:20 PM

BYD planning huge EV plant in Mexico...sales surging in Latin America, mainly Brazil:
https://electrek.co/2024/06/21/byd-huge-mexico-ev-plant-deal...

What is unclear to me is, will vehicles built in Mexico, whether BYD or Tesla, be exempt from US tariffs?

I wish BYD well. The more BEVs we get on the road in Canada, US, and Mexico will be a positive impact on climate change.

JDCanuck - 6-25-2024 at 06:45 PM

At this point, any BYD coming through Mexico will have a 100% tariff in the US, 38% in Canada, but will be tariff free in Mexico. Election may alter that. Here is the latest response from the present administration.

https://apnews.com/article/biden-tariffs-ev-china-mexico-tai...

[Edited on 6-26-2024 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 6-25-2024 at 06:54 PM

If I remember right any Tesla built in Mexico was also threatened with tariffs going to the US. As long as they continue manufacturing in Texas, they should be okay as long as they don't use the LiFePO4 or Sodium Ion batteries.

[Edited on 6-26-2024 by JDCanuck]

mtgoat666 - 6-25-2024 at 08:15 PM

Biden slapped a 100% tarriff on chinese EVs. And a 25% tarriff on a lot of chinese EV components.
And the EU slapped tarriffs fo 17 to 38 percent on chinese EVs or EV components.
EU and gringo car makers are going to grind down china, trade war is on!
Super warrior Biden is going to win the war before Nov 5 :bounce:

(consistent with history which shows usa econ performance is stronger when dems hold white house)

Does NAFTA allow usa to impose crazy high tariffs on mexican EVs and EV components?

[Edited on 6-26-2024 by mtgoat666]

oxxo - 6-25-2024 at 09:52 PM

At this point, any BYD coming through Mexico will have a 100% tariff in the US, 38% in Canada, but will be tariff free in Mexico. Election may alter that. Here is the latest response from the present administration.

https://apnews.com/article/biden-tariffs-ev-china-mexico-tai...

Well, that article was as clear as mud!

I don't agree with the high 100% tariffs on Chinese products that will reduce greenhouse gases....by either party. The public should not be used as a tool to protect the US Labor Unions at the expense of higher consumer prices and lower environmental standards. I still feel that Californico should ignore Federal policies and import those Chinese alternative energy products at around 10% tariff payable to the US Govt. Or better yet, give China a sweetheart deal on a factory site to build the BYDs in Californico and relax State immigration policy to allow Chinese workers in, if necessary.

mtgoat666 - 6-25-2024 at 10:18 PM

Oxxy,
What’ya smokin? States cant set their own tarriffs and own immigration laws. Tarriffs and immigration laws are federal matters. Would be chaos if individual states set their own trade taxes and immigration laws, like they set their abortion laws.

JDCanuck - 6-26-2024 at 03:52 AM

The only US based new battery tech at present I am aware of is Quantumscape solid state batteries being developed in California. Northvolt is a leader in Sodium Ion and LiFePO4 batteries in Sweden and is building a huge LiFePO4 battery plant in Quebec. Canada has paid Northvolt 7.1 billion so far to locate there and their plant is already under sabotage attacks by eco-terrorists. I have no knowledge of what the new State subsidized battery plants in the US will be producing, but for now, China, other south Asian countries and India are the leaders outside of NA in Solar, EV and battery manufacturing.
Mexico is the only country of the three that seems to be attracting new large EV plants without paying big subsidies to get them here. They have promised to provide the infrastructure and have already invested in it for the planned Tesla Giga factory. This is putting new strain on the USMCa trade agreement.

[Edited on 6-26-2024 by JDCanuck]

Tioloco - 6-26-2024 at 06:45 AM

Well, that article was as clear as mud!

I don't agree I still feel that Californico should ignore Federal policies and import those Chinese alternative energy products at around 10% tariff payable to the US Govt. Or better yet, give China a sweetheart deal on a factory site to build the BYDs in Californico and relax State immigration policy to allow Chinese workers in, if necessary.

The most absurd thing on BN in a looong time.

JDCanuck - 6-26-2024 at 07:11 AM

Overall I think this is playing out positively for the Mexico economy and the adoption of EVs in this country. Any new tech much cheaper EVs will be available to residents here at much lower cost, as the EV Manufacturers are encouraged but not subsidized to build manufacturing plants. The supporting newest tech battery storage plants to feed them will also be built here for shipment to other Latin American countries. Mexico's renewable power infrastructure(mainly solar) will be funded by the new plants and there will be a significant growth in higher paid jobs near the US border.

JDCanuck - 6-26-2024 at 07:29 AM

BYD (BYD Auto, their American subsidy) did years back build an electric bus manufacturing plant in Lancaster California that had rapidly growing orders placed for them. They just completed a shipment to Mexico of 50 Electric buses, built by unionized US workers for export. The government's response was to subsidize a competing plant for electric buses that has now disappeared. In Canada, the Federal government took the same tactics by publicly subsidizing a new competing electric bus plant to compete with NFI and their widely in demand electric buses in a politically desirable region. NFI consequently lost orders and was forced to sell at reduced prices to compete with a previously non-existent heavily subsidized manufacturer.

[Edited on 6-26-2024 by JDCanuck]

oxxo - 6-26-2024 at 08:02 AM

Overall I think this is playing out positively for the Mexico economy .........The supporting newest tech battery storage plants to feed them will also be built here for shipment to other Latin American countries. Mexico's renewable power infrastructure(mainly solar) will be funded by the new plants and there will be a significant growth in higher paid jobs near the US border.

I agree, and the US will be caught flat footed as a world leader in this technology. And this US strategy will hurt the Union Labor coalition as those jobs move to Mexico. It is a lose/lose proposition for the US and its constituents' interests.

Since Californico is the 5th largest economy in the world, it has a lot of leverage in the US economy. I expect that Californico, as a State that could be a viable, independent Nation in terms of its economy, may start putting pressure on the Federal Govt. with regards to China moving into Mexico (I can see Ensenada area with its deep port as an enticing option for China with skilled labor from the San Diego/Chula Vista area commuting via a Metro line on a daily basis), to protect Californico's status of its State economy. Other States, like Texas and Florida in particular, have had some success in ignoring Federal mandates with regards to immigration and other social and health issues, both practically and in the Courts. It is logical that Californico can do the same with regards to imports, tariffs, and immigration, if it decides to play hardball about unreasonable Chinese tariffs to protect US Labor Unions. Somebody else can fight the trade war, I'm getting to old for that kind of political and financial nonsense.

Tioloco - 6-26-2024 at 08:24 AM

California is a STATE. You realize what the UNITED states is, right?
Break off into a small country and ultimately become another Ukraine or Hong Kong. Without military strength, idealism gets killed off by dictatorships.

I would counsel you to maintain perspective on safety/security being a bigger priority than the push for cheap electric cars.

Electric cars wont save the planet. Definitely not worth the fight you are proposing.

AKgringo - 6-26-2024 at 08:33 AM

Tesla has a massive battery plant northeast of Reno Nevada.

https://www.bing.com/search?q=tesla+battery+plant+nevada&...

Solid state and LFP Batteries

PaulW - 6-26-2024 at 08:47 AM

Solid state batteries – From a Google search
https://www.ecolithiumbattery.com/top-10-solid-state-battery...
CATL China
BYD China
LG Chem Korea
Panasonic Japan
Quantum Scape USA, CA
Solid Power USA, CO
Wellon China
QingTao China
Ampcera USA AZ
ProLigium FRANCE

ProLogium Technology (UK company) is currently the world's only solid-state battery manufacturer
that has reached mass production and continues to inspire global battery innovation towards a fully
electric, sustainable future.
Mentioned solid state companies
QuantumScape (CA) said it has begun to ship the initial trial version of a prototype battery cell to
Customers
Other
Northvolt sodium-ion batteries
=== ===
What about LFP batteries?
China currently houses the largest manufacturers of LFP batteries, including BYD
and CATL, which supply Tesla.
Others in the USA that make LFP batteries
American Battery Factory (ABF) USA UT
Wildcat Discovery Technologies ( USA CA): LFP cathodes
LG Energy Solution and CATL/Ford (China) building LFP factories in USA
FREYR Battery (Norway): A Norwegian battery startup that plans to build a Giga America battery plant in Coweta County, Georgia
Tesla/Panasonic now tooling up production for LFP batteries in USA CA

[Edited on 6-26-2024 by PaulW]

Ateo - 6-26-2024 at 09:05 AM

Listening to a good podcast from Pivot, called future of travel: is it Buum or bus time for EV‘s?

I’ll try posting the link later, but if you just search for pivot in your podcast service, you will find it. EV adoption (new sales) is at 9.1% currently.

JDCanuck - 6-26-2024 at 09:21 AM

Thanks Paul: That took a lot of searching. But I think Quantum Scape is in California not Canada. They have been somewhat disappointing and their Solid State batteries for EV's in partnership with VW keeps getting pushed ahead. But it looks to me like Solid States are the most equally advanced globally and may be the best bet of catch up in NA. Of further note: Rivian just got a huge additional investment from VW with promises of shared technology and manufacturing prowess.

[Edited on 6-26-2024 by JDCanuck]

mtgoat666 - 6-26-2024 at 10:33 AM

I would counsel you to maintain perspective on safety/security being a bigger priority than the push for cheap electric cars.

As we move to smaller cars, larger cars are a danger. Larger cars and trucks should have mandatory speed and acceleration limiters to make them less dangerous, just like a lot of commercial trucks now have speed limiters. :light:

[Edited on 6-26-2024 by mtgoat666]

oxxo - 6-26-2024 at 10:45 AM

Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo

Tesla has a massive battery plant northeast of Reno Nevada.

Yes, they do, in partnership with Panasonic. And note in the post by @PaulW, that Panasonic, a Japanese company, has advanced the Solid State battery technology. Tesla has been traditionally very private on most (but not all) of their future projects. It would not surprise me that Tesla and Panasonic are well advanced in the research and development of Solid State batteries for production and deployment, at their Reno plant, in Tesla's BEVs. Only time will tell.

Californico has the largest deployment, by State, of BEVs in the currently dis-United States. All the BEVs here have made an almost immediate and significant difference in greenhouse gases generated and the consequent almost immediate and significant improvement in the air quality. Regardless, ICE vehicle new car sales will be banned in Californico after 2030 as a World leader in addressing climate change. And all the other dis-United States will follow our lead, eventually, in a race to be a deplorable last to be United.

To get this back on Topic, Mexico (Baja California) has proven to be more progressive than half the dis-United States by electing an Environmentalist as Presidente and by embracing BYD as a significant partner in making its economy grow by leaps and bounds.

JDCanuck - 6-26-2024 at 11:01 AM

I have a question for others. What is presently preventing you from buying a modern, cheaper, far less environmentally damaging EV available now in Mexico? Cost to end of life, performance, durability, range, or recharging time?

mtgoat666 - 6-26-2024 at 11:01 AM

Part of the reason we bought an ICE vehicle last year is that the battery tech is not yet mature. I would hate to buy a EV car now with intention of keeping it for 10 years and find out is worthless batt tech, replaced by better tech in 5 years.
At least with ICE motos i know the tech is mature and wont be worthless in 5 years.

JDCanuck - 6-26-2024 at 11:07 AM

Kinda like buying an XT computer just before the AT's and even faster more capable models came out. I can understand that one. Improvements are coming so rapidly, the longer you can wait, the better the tech you will get.

oxxo - 6-26-2024 at 11:31 AM

FINALLY! something we can agree on @Devil Goat. But I would take it further by requiring Speed Limiters and Following Distance on ALL vehicles including motorcycles (of course there would have to be some concession for emergencies). On my Tesla, while on Driver Assisted Auto Pilot, the speed is preset to the posted speed limit and following distance is preset according to the speed the car is traveling (for example, the speed limit may be 65 mph on a section of HWY 101 but traffic is backed up for whatever reason and cars are moving only 10 mph, the following distance is closer based on the 10 mph speed rather than the posted 65, which would be farther)

To further complicate things, Semi-trucks often travel on the freeways at 65-70 mph even though it is clearly posted that the speed limit for trucks on the freeway is 55 mph (privately owned Semi's don't have speed limiters, even if a branded truck). They do this because most truck drivers are paid by the mile traveled rather than the time traveled. Therefore drivers can make more per hour, the quicker they can travel that distance! All of this is being addressed by Tesla with their production BEV Semi-Truck which we are now seeing occasionally on Californico freeways (AWESOME!) Eventually, when Tesla is able to develop their Full Self Driving concept to Level 5 NHSTB approval, we will see these trucks without drivers and set to travel at 55 mph on the freeways because the driver is taken out of the cost equation (currently the Tesla Semi does have a real driver). Once again, the Teamster Union (truck drivers) have shot themselves in the foot and are working themselves out of a job!

Getting this back on Topic, I welcome self-driving trucks on Hwy 1 in Baja. Every time I pass by the roadside monument, on Hwy 1, to "Hector" that looks like the cab of a Semi, I send him fare travels and look forward to the day when this kind of carnage can be minimized, especially if that carnage is me!

Tioloco - 6-26-2024 at 11:45 AM

An embrace of government control and communism/socialism. Awesome!

An electric car in San Francisco or LA makes a bit more sense than one in Baja. Definitely limited usefulness in Baja for an EV

[Edited on 6-26-2024 by Tioloco]

JDCanuck - 6-26-2024 at 12:04 PM

Tioloco: If the Rivian truck with all its off-road capabilities were both cheaper and had a much longer range would you consider it for Baja?

oxxo - 6-26-2024 at 12:31 PM

I would hate to buy a EV car now with intention of keeping it for 10 years and find out is worthless batt tech, replaced by better tech in 5 years.
At least with ICE motos i know the tech is mature and wont be worthless in 5 years.

Actually, your ICE vehicle will be worthless in 5 years as more people are jumping on the BEV train in Californico and as gasoline prices will continue to rise as a result of increasing costs of drilling and processing and there is less demand for gasoline (the Oil companies do need to keep their stock holders happy rather than keeping a single goat happy with lower prices). My Tesla is the last car I will ever own. My son-in-law, who is 30 years younger than I, has a 2018 Tesla similar to mine, for 6 years. He is so in love with his car, he was an ICE mechanic earlier in life, he says this will be his last car too! He agrees no maintenance is required other than rotating the tires and adding wiper fluid (he does these things himself).

@JDCanukistani

Quote:

I disagree, because you will never own a computer, a cell phone, or BEV as a result of something newer, shinier, more advanced will always be coming out, "in the future". I have had the absolute JOY of owning my Tesla with Driver Assisted Full Self Driving for almost 6 years and 70+K miles. My car is better than I purchased because I get no extra cost "over the air" updates at least once a month and sometimes 2 or 3 times a month (they download automatically at night while I sleep). My car has all the electronic improvements of a brand new car! No, I don't have the latest battery technology, but I can always have Tesla pull my old battery pack in 3 or 4 years and install a pack with the newest technology for around $10K. Compare that number to purchasing a new base Tesla for around $50K (with tax, license, delivery, and Tesla's nonsense "processing fee.") And my car looks brand new because I take good care of it (white on white). One more thing JD, I purchased Full Self Driving when I bought the car new for $2,000. If I want to buy FSD today, 6 years later, it costs $12,000 AND WORTH EVERY CENTAVO! And my car has EVERY FSD feature, through no extra cost updates, that a new car with FSD has! :bounce:

Getting back on Topic, I will be driving the length of Baja, on self driving, as soon as there are Superchargers at appropriate intervals down Hwy 1.

oxxo - 6-26-2024 at 12:53 PM

An electric car in San Francisco or LA makes a bit more sense than one in Baja. Definitely limited usefulness in Baja for an EV

I disagree @TioTaco. A BEV does make sense for someone who lives full time in Baja. Simply install a Level 2, 220V outlet in your garage (whether on CFE or solar panels) and wake up each morning to a full tank of electrons. Think of the savings from not purchasing 87 octane gasoline at around USD 6/gal. The range on BEVs get as much as 400 miles range, more than enough to run errands or bashing around in the desert terrorizing all the critters that call it home.

mtgoat666 - 6-26-2024 at 02:13 PM

An electric car in San Francisco or LA makes a bit more sense than one in Baja. Definitely limited usefulness in Baja for an EV

99% of baja citizens live in urban areas where they typically have short trips conducive to EVs. Penepoco is thinking of gringo road trippers and a few rural citizens when he thinks everyone should drive a full size v8 diesel…

PaulW - 6-26-2024 at 02:28 PM

Tioloco: If the Rivian truck with all its off-road capabilities were both cheaper and had a much longer range would you consider it for Baja?

=== =
The latest is Rivian has to be shipped to the service center from wherever it is located for fixes
Same comment applies to Tesla truck.
Buy a Mx assembled EV in Baja or Mexico does it have to be transported to China for repairs?

Takes a lot of faith nothing will go wrong.

mtgoat666 - 6-26-2024 at 02:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by PaulW

Tioloco: If the Rivian truck with all its off-road capabilities were both cheaper and had a much longer range would you consider it for Baja?

One problem of many new car designs is management did not tell the designers that easy maintenance/repairs was a key design objective. So now we got cars that cost a small fortune to repair a body ding, and teslas that cant go thru a carwash (i kid you not, the owners manual says you should not take your tesla thru a carwash).

JDCanuck - 6-26-2024 at 03:19 PM

Goat: That's one of the primary reasons I got rid of all my IC vehicles but one. They were becoming more and more complicated, more difficult and expensive to maintain. Just communications between the key fobs and the car's computer (a 1/2 hour job ) cost 300 to get the dealer to reprogram, and it was proprietary software. This after the immobilizer refused to allow the car to run and it had to be towed to the dealer. The other 2 times this occurred, we were lucky enough to obtain the hack from the web after a very brief delay.

oxxo - 6-26-2024 at 03:26 PM

Quote: Originally posted by PaulW

The latest is Rivian has to be shipped to the service center from wherever it is located for fixes
Same comment applies to Tesla truck.
Buy a Mx assembled EV in Baja or Mexico does it have to be transported to China for repairs?

Takes a lot of faith nothing will go wrong.

That is why I have NEVER purchased any type of vehicle until it has been in production AT LEAST a year or more, until all the kinks have been worked out. That is why I'm not on board with any Rivian, BYD, or CyberTruk.....yet. I give them some time to "mature."

oxxo - 6-26-2024 at 04:07 PM

So now we got cars that cost a small fortune to repair a body ding,

True if you take it to the dealer service center if you want the ding fixed. You can take it down the street in Baja and have "Jose solo ojo" fix your ding for next to nothing just like you do with your ICE car.

Quote:

and teslas that cant go thru a carwash (i kid you not, the owners manual says you should not take your tesla thru a carwash).

NOT TRUE! Where do you get this stuff? You ARE kidding us. You should change your handle on BN to @mttroll666! IF you don't know what you are talking about, it is better to keep your mouth shut rather than prove it to the world!

Tesla does recommend you not use a commercial car wash because of potential damage to the car's finish, which YOU, not Tesla, will be responsible for repairs. Most ICE cars have the same recommendation because your dealer ain't going to repair any damage under warranty!!!

I'm an "environmentalist." I usually wash my car by hand at home with 2 gallons of distilled water, waterless car wash - "No Rinse Wash and Shine" (available on Amazon), and some high quality microfiber towels. Nary a scratch on my car. However, I have taken my car to a commercial car wash maybe 3 times over the years. I simply put the car in "car wash mode" on the U.I. and the side mirrors fold and sucks the wipers further under the hood automatically and puts the car in neutral to be pulled through the rotating dirty rags. It was with very unsatisfactory results by the pizz poor car wash (including the one at Costco) on all 3 occasions.

Your horse and buggy on the other hand, is what you can't take through a car wash. Try the "No Rinse" product on your horse!

oxxo - 6-26-2024 at 04:44 PM

Just communications between the key fobs and the car's computer (a 1/2 hour job ) cost 300 to get the dealer to reprogram, and it was proprietary software. This after the immobilizer refused to allow the car to run and it had to be towed to the dealer. The other 2 times this occurred, we were lucky enough to obtain the hack from the web after a very brief delay.

@JDCanuckistani, your ICE dealer is ripping you off to reprogram. But Tesla will do the same thing if you are foolish enough to take it to a service center if out of warranty.

Tesla operates thru your programmed cell phone (can be either Android or IPhone) and you can program other cell phones too (3 as I recall) to operate it if you wish. In addition, Tesla provides 2 "key cards" to operate the car when you purchase the car if you lose your cell phone. They are the size of a credit card and I keep one in my wallet as a back up, which I've never needed. There are no keys or fobs. The car recognizes your programmed cell phone in your pocket or purse (goat? you don't need to take it out) as you walk up , security mode is disabled, the door automatically unlocks for you (I have mine programed to open all 4 doors at the same time, but it is your choice), hop in, put it into gear, and drive off. This is a no brainer, even a Neanderthal goat can do it.

Tesla is simply a very advanced computer on 4 wheels. Any glitches in the cars computer can be fixed OTA with a simple, toll free call to the technical dept. at no cost to reprogram(reset). You can also reset the computer yourself, if you don't need a technician to hold your hand. Neither has happened to me or any Tesla owner I know.

surabi - 6-26-2024 at 05:16 PM

I lost my key fob several years ago. Am actually much happier to just use a regular manual key. It still had to be programmed, but that was much less expensive than a fob. And there's just a chip in it, no battery to go dead and leave you stranded, unable to lock or unlock your vehicle.

JDCanuck - 6-26-2024 at 05:25 PM

If you are looking at EV's to buy and want reliability, especially on the damaging roads in Baja, Consumer Reports just came out with a recent list. It may be additional complexity causing the problems, but the cheapest models seem to also be the most reliable at present. The big exceptions here are the Porsche Taycan and Lexus

https://caredge.com/guides/the-most-reliable-evs-according-t...

[Edited on 6-27-2024 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 6-26-2024 at 05:52 PM

Quote: Originally posted by surabi

I lost my key fob several years ago. Am actually much happier to just use a regular manual key. It still had to be programmed, but that was much less expensive than a fob. And there's just a chip in it, no battery to go dead and leave you stranded, unable to lock or unlock your vehicle.

Sorry, I misstated that, it was actually the chip in the keys that were not being read by the onboard computer. The remote fobs continued to work well, locking, unlocking, setting off the alarm etc. Somehow the car's computer stopped recognizing all my keys.
Same thing happened to my Chev truck when we parked for lunch in Utah, but it was easily rectified by a sequence of manual resets we found on the web.

oxxo - 6-26-2024 at 06:07 PM

If you are looking at EV's to buy and want reliability, especially on the damaging roads in Baja, Consumer Reports just came out with a recent list. It may be additional complexity causing the problems, but the cheapest models seem to also be the most reliable at present. The big exception here is the Porsche Tayan

I lost respect and confidence in Consumer Report, years ago. Porsche, for example just had a complete recall of all their Taycan model this week. I have purchased some of their "recommended" products over the years and found they did not live up to CR claims. There has been persistent rumors that CR is no longer "independent" but taking money from mfg's under the table to keep their failing business from filing for bankruptcy. I don't know, but I do know I no longer trust them as do most of their former fans.

In other news, Ford has just announced their "new platform" BEVs will be built in Long Beach Californico. This is good news for Mexicans living in northern Baja. They can drive to to Chula Vista, pick up a Ford BEV and take it back over the border. I can also see the Ford dealer in Tijuana/Ensenda stocking this car for immediate delivery. This will give Mexicans (and gringos) in that area an option that is more versatile and higher end than the BYD. Plus there is a Supercharger in Ensenada that Ford will be able to access because Ford has adopted Tesla's NACS format for charging, BYD? who knows.

JDCanuck - 6-26-2024 at 06:21 PM

Baja is going to be a special test ground I think. Given all the unavoidable potholes, extreme washboard back roads, etc. Our older GM truck and also other vehicles had several issues related to electrical contacts or connectors over the couple years we drove a lot down here. I'm not concerned about the main battery packs, but assembly of all electronics and connectors will get a big tryout.
Excessive complexity will probably come back to bite.

Our neighbors at present prefer the most uncomplicated Hilux for that very reason. Manual everything they can have and reduced electronics wherever possible.

oxxo - 6-26-2024 at 06:23 PM

Quote: Originally posted by surabi

My cell phone is the key to my car and the cell phone is wirelessly charged when in the car, so the battery never goes dead while in the car. However, if you lose your cell phone while shopping at Freska grocery store, I do carry a key card in my wallet, that requires no battery and I could use that if needed (which I never have). I can't tell you how many sets of keys I've lost for various items (including my house) over the years. There is now a front door lockset that can be programed to your cell phone. You walk up to the front door with your phone in your pocket and the door automatically unlocks!

oxxo - 6-26-2024 at 06:40 PM

Baja is going to be a special test ground I think. Given all the unavoidable potholes, extreme washboard back roads, etc. Our older GM truck and also other vehicles had several issues related to electrical contacts or connectors over the couple years we drove a lot down here. I'm not concerned about the main battery packs, but assembly of all electronics and connectors will get a big tryout.
Excessive complexity will probably come back to bite.

There was a bunch of Teslas in Los Cabos when I was there last month. They were brought over by ferry from the mainland by Mexicans. There is no Tesla Service Center in Los Cabos, at this time, but I expect one and a Supercharger there in the next year or two. All the Mexicans I have talked to in Cabo have had no issues with "excessive complexity" and neither have I over the years. Teslas are now ranked as the most reliable car brand ahead of Toyota, now ranked as second. However, I would never take my car off road, anywhere. You live south of T.S., with acceptable roads. Don't overthink this JD.

oxxo - 6-26-2024 at 07:34 PM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho

Absolute deal killer, for anyone I hang out with. :coolup:

To be clear, I would never take any car, even ICE 4x4, off road. It is just not my thing. I would rather hike through the desert (which I have done) and enjoy the quiet and beauty of that environment without destroying it. I especially enjoy the boulder garden north of Catavina.

AKgringo - 6-26-2024 at 07:53 PM

Off road is almost a daily experience for me. Not only does my ride need to be capable of that, but it must be able to haul things and/or pull a trailer as well.

mtgoat666 - 6-26-2024 at 08:53 PM

Quote: Originally posted by AKgringo

Off road is almost a daily experience for me. Not only does my ride need to be capable of that, but it must be able to haul things and/or pull a trailer as well.

Cybertruck! F150 lightening bug! Rivian!

mtgoat666 - 6-26-2024 at 08:59 PM

My cell phone is the key to my car

When i go to the beach, i leave my phone at home or in the car.

Often on the weekend i leave my phone at home….

Why would a car mfg make you tether yourself to a phone? I think they are collecting data on you and selling it to marketers!
Creepy that tesla is collecting data on your every trip!

Can a tesla owner turn off all of the gps data collection uploads to tesla?

Bajazly - 6-26-2024 at 09:14 PM

Can a tesla owner turn off all of the gps data collection uploads to tesla?

When you sell your soul to the devil you give up all rights.

Tioloco - 6-26-2024 at 09:44 PM

Quote: Originally posted by Bajazly

Can a tesla owner turn off all of the gps data collection uploads to tesla?

When you sell your soul to the devil you give up all rights.

oxxo - 6-26-2024 at 10:31 PM

Why would a car mfg make you tether yourself to a phone?

Then just use your "key card!" It's just a card with a chip in it, just like your ICE vehicle with truck tires. Your gasoline fuel bill must be something to behold!

Quote:

I think they are collecting data on you and selling it to marketers!
Creepy that tesla is collecting data on your every trip!

As usual, YOU thought wrong. Just because you "think" something, doesn't make you right!

Quote:

Can a tesla owner turn off all of the gps data collection uploads to tesla?

YES! Your choice. It's creepy that you are so wrong about a car you know nothing about!

mtgoat666 - 6-26-2024 at 10:43 PM

What’s really creepy is the tesla cameras that go into “creep” mode when you leave your car parked, recording anyone that passes by your parked car :thumbdown:

JDCanuck - 6-27-2024 at 04:05 AM

Quote: Originally posted by lencho

Absolute deal killer, for anyone I hang out with. :coolup:

I'm thinking you have me confused with someone else Oxxo. Our place was 60 miles up the Baja 1000 track from La Paz. This is why our neighbors and us all needed durable 4X4's. This is the Baja that will give any complicated electronics vehicle an extra challenge on durability. No cell access for rescues when something shuts down and you are crossing some off road arroyo in 38 degree heat. Our Leaf never goes off the pavement in Canada and would have been useless down here. Even that stretch of highway from #5 to San Ignacio is brutal on most cars.

[Edited on 6-27-2024 by JDCanuck]

oxxo - 6-27-2024 at 08:18 AM

Our place was 60 miles up the Baja 1000 track from La Paz. This is why our neighbors and us all needed durable 4X4's. This is the Baja that will give any complicated electronics vehicle an extra challenge on durability. No cell access for rescues when something shuts down and you are crossing some off road arroyo in 38 degree heat. Our Leaf never goes off the pavement in Canada and would have been useless down here. Even that stretch of highway from #5 to San Ignacio is brutal on most cars.

Then, you are one of the edge cases. The BEV movement is still in its infancy. It is impossible for it to meet the demands of every possible user choices at this time.

As far as living in a remote location, I did that for two years a long time ago. I had no transportation. I had no utilities. I had no supermarket just down the road. I had no 4x4 or complicated electronics. It was a life changing experience for me. And I existed with an almost zero impact on my local environment, unlike driving a 4x4, 60 miles into the wilderness, spewing hydrocarbons into the air and destroying local habitat.

Everyone is free to pursue whatever lifestyle appeals to them. But, it is important that we all recognize and take personal responsibility for the impact on the environment our personal lifestyle choices, causes. I try not to be a hypocrite. My personal lifestyle choices today do cause more of an impact on the environment than they did for two years a long time ago. I recognize that and take responsibility for that choice. I do make an effort to minimize my impact on my environment today, but I can, and I will do more everyday to reduce my personal "carbon footprint". I want to leave this Earth, environmentally, a better place than I inherited, if not for me, at least for those who follow me.

JDCanuck - 6-27-2024 at 08:46 AM

Well, this is where the BYD Shark, Yuan PLus, the F-150 Lightning the 4 Rivians (including the new smaller and less expensive R3) all fit in at present as EV's or Plug in hybrids. We'll have to wait to see whether they prioritize durability or multiple online conveniences for this particular market. But someone will fill the gap that exists at present. So far, Rivian is the only one that has seriously tested their trucks and SUV's in harsh off-road conditions, but I am betting Toyota may leverage the Hilux reputation to compete in the near future.

[Edited on 6-27-2024 by JDCanuck]

Tioloco - 6-27-2024 at 08:48 AM

Why not go back to the low impact remote lifestyle to reduce your carbon footprint again?

oxxo - 6-27-2024 at 09:04 AM

Why not go back to the low impact remote lifestyle to reduce your carbon footprint again?

I am! but I can even do better. Now what about you?

Tioloco - 6-27-2024 at 09:14 AM

Why not go back to the low impact remote lifestyle to reduce your carbon footprint again?

I am! but I can even do better. Now what about you?

I pick up trash when I see it. I try not to destroy anything when I am out in the desert, forest or ocean. I try to only kill animals I am going to eat.

But as far as EV's go, I have seen enough to conclude they are not better for the environment than an ICE vehicle. With that, I will continue doing what I do and the earth will continue to do what it has done for millions of years.... Change!

JDCanuck - 6-27-2024 at 09:21 AM

By the way, I just noticed Rivian has a pretty decent cost to lease one of their 4 separate motor trucks to see how they work out in real life and harsh off-roading. Might be a good way to try out EV off-road travel here in Baja without the long term commitment.
Years back we had pre-ordered an R1S but decided to put our money in extended solar instead. Our next EV purchase now that we have the Leaf and a longer distance IC for the rare occasion we need more storage or long trips to meet the next few years demand wont be for a few years yet, so we have lots of time to let the markets settle.
Here's a brief off-road test of the Rivian R1T and its capabilities on the kind of tracks we see down here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfRJUDAHh1Q

[Edited on 6-27-2024 by JDCanuck]

oxxo - 6-27-2024 at 10:24 AM

I pick up trash when I see it.

GREAT, kudos to you!

Quote:

I try not to destroy anything when I am out in the desert, forest or ocean.

PERFECT!

Quote:

I try to only kill animals I am going to eat.

I agree. I am about 90% vegetarian right now, but I find it hard to resist a tasty fish taco!

Quote:

But as far as EV's go, I have seen enough to conclude they are not better for the environment than an ICE vehicle.

Here we disagree and science, research, and comparisons are on my side 100%

Quote:

With that, I will continue doing what I do and the earth will continue to do what it has done for millions of years.... Change!

What you say is true except that we humanoids are accelerating that change in our environment as verified by 99.99% of environmental scientists. I'm trying to leave the next generation a better place than a worse place as a result of me NOT taking responsibility for my personal actions regarding greenhouse gases.

Tioloco - 6-27-2024 at 12:01 PM

99.99% of environmental scientists paid for those results by the government to attain those results.
Not the same thing.

oxxo - 6-27-2024 at 01:03 PM

Quote: Originally posted by PaulW

Solid state batteries – From a Google search
https://www.ecolithiumbattery.com/top-10-solid-state-battery...
CATL China
BYD China
LG Chem Korea
Panasonic Japan
Quantum Scape USA, CA
Solid Power USA, CO
Wellon China
QingTao China
Ampcera USA AZ
ProLigium FRANCE

ProLogium Technology (UK company) is currently the world's only solid-state battery manufacturer
that has reached mass production and continues to inspire global battery innovation towards a fully
electric, sustainable future.
Mentioned solid state companies
QuantumScape (CA) said it has begun to ship the initial trial version of a prototype battery cell to
Customers
Other
Northvolt sodium-ion batteries

Here is the latest on development of a anode-less, compression-less Solid State battery is going to be a huge advancement in BEV battery technology, right here in Maryland!

https://electrek.co/2024/06/27/anodeless-compressionless-sol...

JDCanuck - 6-27-2024 at 10:47 PM

These three models from Rivian may be what Baja needs for an affordable fully electric off-roader. R2 expected to be 45000 (10,000 cheaper than the present BYD Shark hybrid), and a smaller yet R3 even cheaper, with an upgraded R3X rounding out their newer, lower priced lineup.
Heres the writeup from a few months ago.

Even the smallest cheapest model should handle the roads we typically see down here.

https://rivian.com/newsroom/article/rivian-announces-mid-siz...

[Edited on 6-28-2024 by JDCanuck]

mtgoat666 - 6-28-2024 at 05:14 AM

These three models from Rivian may be what Baja needs for an affordable fully electric off-roader. R2 expected to be 45000 (10,000 cheaper than the present BYD Shark hybrid), and a smaller yet R3 even cheaper, with an upgraded R3X rounding out their newer, lower priced lineup.
Heres the writeup from a few months ago.

Even the smallest cheapest model should handle the roads we typically see down here.

https://rivian.com/newsroom/article/rivian-announces-mid-siz...

[Edited on 6-28-2024 by JDCanuck]

Is rivian still a viable business? I thought they disappeared.

Their signature headlight design is so ugly, hope they drop it in new models.

JDCanuck - 6-28-2024 at 05:47 AM

Is rivian still a viable business? I thought they disappeared.

Their signature headlight design is so ugly, hope they drop it in new models.

Well they aren't yet in profit mode and they do feed somewhat of a niche market, previously at higher prices. They are drastically reducing manufacturing costs and just got a 5 billion partnership commitment from VW, who apparently wants their software. But if they don't make those models, someone should, they are the most practical off-road models out so far.

SFandH - 6-28-2024 at 06:18 AM

Is rivian still a viable business? I thought they disappeared.

Their signature headlight design is so ugly, hope they drop it in new models.

"Rivian Loses $38,000 Per Vehicle Delivered In Q1."

https://www.investors.com/news/rivian-stock-quarterly-loss-o...

Tioloco - 6-28-2024 at 06:30 AM

Without government subsidies (corporate welfare) feeding these companies, they all go bankrupt.

Titan Solar, Greenvolts, etc etc etc. Meanwhile, feels good to "go green" while millions of people struggle with grocery prices.

JDCanuck - 6-28-2024 at 06:32 AM

Similar to Ford or GM on their bigger electrics, (In 2023, Ford Model e reported a full-year EBIT loss of $4.7 billion on sales of 116,000 EVs, or an average of $40,525 per vehicle). but they have the ability to subsidize them far longer. What they all need is either far higher public acceptance or far cheaper batteries. Rivian has the disadvantage of being a new startup without major financial backing til now with VW.

[Edited on 6-28-2024 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 6-28-2024 at 06:47 AM

The alternative to subiidizing the NA EV manufacturers is watching the subsidized Asian manufacturers flood the market and once again leave NA wishing we had done more. I don't see a good answer here if we want to stay competitive in manufacturing for export to global markets. I think we can all see where the future of transportation is heading.

Tioloco - 6-28-2024 at 07:32 AM

The alternative to subiidizing the NA EV manufacturers is watching the subsidized Asian manufacturers flood the market and once again leave NA wishing we had done more. I don't see a good answer here if we want to stay competitive in manufacturing for export to global markets. I think we can all see where the future of transportation is heading.

That future does not seem to be heading for electric. Lots of big players bailing on it.

oxxo - 6-28-2024 at 07:39 AM

Quote: Originally posted by SFandH

What would you expect from a promotional press release from the parent company - any company? Yes, "on paper" they look promising, but how they will perform "in the wild" is still unproven. The Tesla CyberTruk has even better specs than the BYD or Rivian, but is still unproven (despite what Tesla says) and had a service center recall of 11,000 units last week. I am not ready to endorse any of them at this point.

Quote:

Is rivian still a viable business? I thought they disappeared.

They were bankrupt until VW bailed them out last month. Something tells me VW would like to purchase the Rivian company.

Quote:

heir signature headlight design is so ugly, hope they drop it in new models.

The front end design of the Rivian is very polarizing, along with Tesla's CyberTruk - you either love it or not. Both Ford and Chev. have more traditional BEV pickup design, that hasn't changed in almost 100 years, than either Rivian or CyberTruk. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

Quote:

But if they don't make those models, someone should, they are the most practical off-road models out so far.

I have some issues with the Rivian concept. eg. the CyberTruk has adjustable suspension height from the truck interior, the Rivian not. Rivian does not have an extensive service center availability like Tesla has in the U.S. At this time, Rivian is not compatible with Supercharger connection. I could go on. In my opinion, neither Rivian, BYD, or CyberTruk are ready for the back roads of Baja and may not be for another 3 years or more. I do like the CyberTruk concept best of the 3, but it is best suited for traditional use in the US right now.

In the meantime, Toyota and their off-road BEV concept is years away, if ever. I am not sure that Toyota is a viable company for the future. They had a golden opportunity to make the new Prius a BEV (I absolutely love the egg shaped design) but they chickened out and made it a plug-in hybrid. That one car would have sold millions of units around the world and saved the company, and they blew it!

Quote:

"Rivian Loses $38,000 Per Vehicle Delivered In Q1."

True, They were going to file for bankruptcy until VW came along.

oxxo - 6-28-2024 at 07:56 AM

Without government subsidies (corporate welfare) feeding these companies, they all go bankrupt. .

True....and you know who the BIGGEST recipient of corporate govt. subsidies is, by far? THE OIL INDUSTRY!!! Yes, the US BEV movement and the oil industry will ALL go bankrupt without govt. subsidies. There is one exception, that idiot Elon Musk and Tesla and his related businesses - Solar City, Space X, etc. - have never taken or needed govt. subsidies (Elon is a Libertarian in favor of less govt. interference as long as it reduces HIS taxes to nothing). So, where does that leave us? Do you want to subsidize, with YOUR taxes, companies that poison our air or companies that clean our air?

oxxo - 6-28-2024 at 08:06 AM

That future does not seem to be heading for electric. Lots of big players bailing on it.

Not True! ALL the big players (except Toyota) are jumping in (even a niche company like Ferrari)! Yes there are a few poorly financed start-ups that can't keep up, but the future definitely belongs to BEVs and Californico is leading the way and hopefully Mexico and their new Madame Presidente appears to be following suit.

Tioloco - 6-28-2024 at 08:13 AM

That future does not seem to be heading for electric. Lots of big players bailing on it.

They are "jumping in" to cash in on subsidies. Just like the entire solar industry is. But we have seen that is not sustainable financially in the long term.

California is leading the way? Seems toward bankruptcy and financial insolvency.

As for "madame presidente", she has a cartel violence problem that is so bad now that she may as well put her scientist hat in the closet. She has WAY bigger fish to fry than to worry if the propane stove on the neighborhood hot dog stands are putting out too much carbon poisoning.

But if you would like, we can keep pretending that gas powered cars are the big problem.

JDCanuck - 6-28-2024 at 08:29 AM

I really don't think the average person in Baja commuting to and from the city down roads where 4X4''s are needed at the lowest possible cost is ready to pop for a Cybertruck, but maybe I'm wrong. 30,000 to 45,000 new(half that 3 yrs old with 45,000 miles) is the sweet spot for most of us for a durable vehicle that gets us off the gas and maintenance inflationary wheel. A lot of those commuters in Baja will already be off-grid and have solar power, so expanding their system to accommodate an EV won't be a big additional challenge. The biggest complaint I had when trying to get workers out to our place was the ever increasing cost of gas followed by the cost of maintaining their trucks, most of which were either well used and battered Toyotas or Hilux.

[Edited on 6-28-2024 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 6-28-2024 at 10:08 AM

Tioloco: Here is the present trend in Canada, the land of ice and snow. The number intending to buy some type of EV for their next vehicle has risen above 50% and rises even more when they learn of recent advances in technology. Subsidies(almost equal to added Taxes and dealer fees) here have declined from where they used to be, but the average person is still held back mainly by cost....40,000 CAD (30,000 USD) is the average they have budgeted to spend for their next vehicle, net of fees, taxes and subsidies.

https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/half-of-canadians-plan-to-...

[Edited on 6-28-2024 by JDCanuck]

oxxo - 6-28-2024 at 10:10 AM

I really don't think the average person in Baja commuting to and from the city down roads where 4X4''s are needed at the lowest possible cost is ready to pop for a Cybertruck, but maybe I'm wrong. 30,000 to 45,000 new(half that 3 yrs old with 45,000 miles) is the sweet spot for most of us for a durable vehicle that gets us off the gas and maintenance inflationary wheel.

Elon Musk has ALWAYS released the most expensive model in a series FIRST to generate cash to support the less expensive, which come later. Currently, the CyberTruk is around USD 100K, and he has plenty of takers. If you wait for a year or two, you will be able to purchase a CyberTruk less expensive for around USD 50K. BTW, the AVERAGE cost of a pickup in the US (both domestic and foreign) is around USD 60K, at this time. Yes, you will be able to purchase an unproven BYD for potentially less (Rivian, no, the cost will be way above your "sweet spot"). You will get what you pay for.

oxxo - 6-28-2024 at 10:15 AM

but the average person is still held back mainly by cost....40,000 CAD (30,000 USD) is the average they have budgeted to spend for their next vehicle, net of fees, taxes and subsidies.

You will be hard pressed to find a good horse and buggy for USD 30K. Canuckistanis need a dose of reality!

JDCanuck - 6-28-2024 at 10:18 AM

Yes, those IC trucks have gotten extra expensive and the F-150 Lightning XLT sells for less than the F-150 lightning at present. Its no wonder the NA manufacturers fought EV's for so long since they are their huge profit makers, especially in Canada where you have to have a truck or Jeep whether you ever take it off pavement or not. (we don't)

JDCanuck - 6-28-2024 at 11:02 AM

They are very close at present. Hyundai and Kia are just barely above that at present Longer range 2024 Leaf with larger 62 kwh battery pack is a bit below and you save sales tax and might still get a slight rebate. Most of those surveyed were unaware of the rebates until told.

[Edited on 6-28-2024 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 6-28-2024 at 02:16 PM

"I am one of the many who are "unaware" WHERE can you save on sales tax AND get a slight rebate. Please clue me in!"

Canada, where they just replaced the provincial rebate of 6000 with a sales tax reduction new or used. Canadian federal rebate still applies to some new Teslas that are under 65000CAD.

Just cancelling the sales tax on any EV makes great sense to me rather than rebates, especially in Mexico. Would amount to a 16% rebate across the board to eliminate your gasoline demand. Compare this to a system where they advertise for 65,000, add the dealer fees and sales taxes of 9500-10000, then give you a 6,000 government rebate. under certain conditions.

[Edited on 6-28-2024 by JDCanuck]

oxxo - 6-28-2024 at 02:45 PM

Canada, where they just replaced the provincial rebate of 6000 with a sales tax reduction new or used. Canadian federal rebate still applies to some new Teslas that are under 65000CAD.

My understanding is you have to be a Canadian citizen to qualify. Otherwise, some entrepreneur would be buying those cars by the truckload for "resale" as new in the US.

JDCanuck - 6-28-2024 at 03:38 PM

Canada, where they just replaced the provincial rebate of 6000 with a sales tax reduction new or used. Canadian federal rebate still applies to some new Teslas that are under 65000CAD.

My understanding is you have to be a Canadian citizen to qualify. Otherwise, some entrepreneur would be buying those cars by the truckload for "resale" as new in the US.

Well, yes, but aren't California residents still allowed the up to 12,500 rebate? This was the case when the F-150 Lightning Pro was introduced at under 40,000. It blew out so fast, the dealers added significant above MSRP pricing to make a bigger profit off them. Then Ford followed though and raised the MSRP as well. Even with those price increases Ford is losing 43,000 per unit on their entire E-fleet. Of course all the extensive R & D is included in those expenses, same as Rivian. It isn't cheap to build all those new multi billion Manufacturing and/or retool plants either.

[Edited on 6-28-2024 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 6-28-2024 at 04:16 PM

Rivian has 9 billion left in cash, 2/3 that amount in total debt after building their battery and manufacturing in Illinois and including R and D expenses to date. I didn't see them anywhere near bankruptcy with 82% Y/Y revenue growth. They did tho have to delay their newest plant in Georgia, until revenue caught up with costs.
GM and Chrysler were in far worse shape when the taxpayers were required to bail them out a few years back and if I remember right, GM actually did go bankrupt.

[Edited on 6-28-2024 by JDCanuck]

JDCanuck - 6-28-2024 at 04:42 PM

So in essence, if you could afford a Tesla or an F-150 to begin with....you would receive up to 15,000 back at that time after filing taxes and assuming you had not used all your tax credits to that point. I can see why so many wealthier people would immediately jump on that. In Canada, there's the Provincial tax in BC (7%) and the Federal rebate of 5,000 (but only in certain circumstances?) to offset the federal taxes, dealer delivery and documentation and immediately needed necessary options like a home charging cord or charger. I checked the price on a longer range new Tesla model 3 and it was net above 60,000 here which explains why the resale prices are so high compared to California.
I would guess this presents an opportunity for mechanically competent people in Baja to run up to Southern California, and get a very cheap used EV as long as the roads they normally traveled were decently smooth.

[Edited on 6-29-2024 by JDCanuck]

oxxo - 6-28-2024 at 08:18 PM