BajaNomad - loreto bay, again

loreto bay, again

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LaTijereta - 5-21-2007 at 09:18 PM

We have seen a great improvement with our "city" water preasure, since the the re-piping has begun in Loreto "Central" :yes:

.
I can't imagine that we will be able to continue to pay a flat fee for our water as we have for the past 24 years to the city. While other areas of the city have been charged sometimes higher rates, our neighborhood has enjoyed a rate of $10 - 16, per month. Some of this has been tied to the peso-dollar exchange, but still a steady rate has been provided.
We also setup a separate well pump on the property to get water for plant watering. There is a underground stream/ source about 20 ft down that allows for this. (I always wondered if it might be one of Loreto's broken water lines?)

Paula > We were up at Primer Agua last year, and the pools still had water in them. The location should be given back to the people of Loreto, as it is such a big part of their history :no:

jerry - 5-21-2007 at 10:27 PM

you know where i stand sharks and i know where you stand weater its today or yesterday makes no difference it was developed and is now a working busness 70 years is a very short time ??
more important is that things will be developed and all added costs of the bs will be passed on to the end users so if you thing your a consurvationist your barking up the wrong tree you are now part of the problem insted of the sulution
old hippy whos payroll you hailing from?? if you know what the true effect of the effluent of a sewer system are on the surounding area and how it need to be handeled spill it?? its gona be built so tell us wonderboy how will the efflunt be handeled??
yes paula im very much intrested in how the locals will survive i believe the local natives come first as they have and if they deside to sell then they sell they give up ownership just like everyone else in the free world
i dont think the real subjects should be covered up by the few gringoes telling the natives how they must react 50 years ago the sold their land and in january they sold some more and i expect there was and will be more sales the city fathers are responsibale for representing the locales no a bunch of dogooder gringoes who only have there own agenda for their purposes
building there own homes on the beach but wanting noone else to have a beach home there busness is on the water front but lets stop waterfront busness?? anyone who cant see the narrow mindness of this is blind
i mentioned chicken coops well i was talking about LB guess i was wrong so far i see the cheep leading the sheep even the golfers in loreto wont stand up for them selves simply bowout of coments when their bell is rung
dont get me wrong i have nothing against sharks or his busness i have injoyed eating at his place and will in the future im just showing the parelles
god knows how messed up the good old USof A is dont bring it to baja
I sugest all gringoes in baja STOP LOOK and LISTEN to whats going on around you its mexico not the usa let it be mexico remember your a guest act acordingly

roundtuit - 5-22-2007 at 12:21 AM

Jerry, Ck your spelling. Bruce doesn't stand a chance against you. If you want to voice your opinion, aleast be able use spell ck

Not blind

Sharksbaja - 5-22-2007 at 12:59 AM

I see exactly what happens when a golf course is installed. More of the same. I'd much rather see people(with little or no money) using the same areas to live, fish and spend quality time.
If you think I contributed to the demise of coastline you know me not.

I waged an agressive campaign along with few others in CA to prevent a development so the public could continue to use the land that was guaranteed theirs according to CA law. I was instrumental in striking a deal with the Coastal Zone Commision, The Army Corps and The Attorney Generals office. I was effective in halting the distruction of reef and tidepool habitat when bulldozers filled them in with sand. I was a proponent for enforcement of a State Constitutional Law. The law was established in 1850. It guaranteed "right of access to public domain". Eventually the city sold itself out and allowed developers to do their thing. It took them another 20 years. The powerful Kennedy family were the major interests in that coastline.
The difference between us is simple. You feel each and every individual has a god givin right to do whatever he pleases within the law on his/her own property. I don't. I feel undeveloped public coastline should be scrutinized. Something in the US that was done very little in the past and something Mexico continues to do in the present. I
So don't give me this basura about me destroying coastlines. Our footprint is quite tiny comparatively speaking. You can try to paint me a villian if you wish but I actually do care and do stuff to prevent destruction. I continue to try within my ability.

Drawing a parallel between us and LCB is totally silly and almost appears to be an attempt to distract from the real issue here. Which btw is not about golf courses. They are just another good example of wasted coastline IMHO.

You are certainly right about developers winning out. Pretty much every single time no matter what's at stake. :rolleyes:

Quote:

I sugest all gringoes in baja STOP LOOK and LISTEN to whats going on around you its mexico not the usa let it be mexico remember your a guest act acordingly

In other words just be totally quiet?. :wow:

Just because I don't like what they are doing there I should keep a lid on it?
I doubt I'll go to bat as I did in CA Jerry, cause were guests . But am I not allowed to make parallels between the US and Mexico? Why can you but not me?? Are we not allowed to discuss situations and scenarios that we can reference from our past experiences? Why? Cause were guests? Sheesh! You take all the fun out of it when you point fingers and make outrageous parallels. :lol:

Is that your real point? Who are we to draw lines in Baja?

[Edited on 5-22-2007 by Sharksbaja]

Crusoe - 5-22-2007 at 06:36 AM

Jerry.......You are way off base. You need to read and reread what Paula wrote on 5/21 and think long and hard about what is really hapening here......Nice work Paula...I feel you have said what is the essence of this whole discussion..And Sharks also has hit the nail on the head square on...... Nice Sharks.....The people at L.B.C. are there for one reason only!!!!!!! Why should they care about any poor workers or town folks??? They dont have any means to buy in! And furtermore this huge development will only have an extreeme negative effect to Loreto and the surrounding area. ++C++

Paula - 5-22-2007 at 07:16 AM

"Paula > We were up at Primer Agua last year, and the pools still had water in them. The location should be given back to the people of Loreto, as it is such a big part of their history"

La Tijereta, I might not have all of my Primer Agua history right. I do know for sure that it was taken by fonatur. The former owner's family in Loreto told us how his grandfather rode a mule every year to Santa Rosalia to pay the taxes for the rancho, but the government didn't see this as proof of ownership, and without a deed they lost the place. The old walls of the ranch still stand at the top of the stairway down to the pools. When we first went back there-- maybe a year and a half ago-- the bathrooms and showers were ruined and any water in the pool was incidental. Hurricane John left the oasis much worse off than before, and the pool is now filled with sand. I guess if they managed to build it in the first place they could fix it now, though it looks daunting.

Thank you for the picture, I wondered how it looked back in the day. Do you have more? I agree with you that it should be used for the loocals to enjoy.

Edit: Primer Agua-- not Loreto Bay, sorry to digress off subject

[Edited on 5-22-2007 by Paula]

oldhippie - 5-22-2007 at 08:41 AM

Phil S,

You're correct that I have spent much time doing Internet searches and writing posts about this topic. I'm now changing gears and spending time communicating with other people about this topic.

On my most recent drive to Todos Santos and back a few months ago I was very impressed with the increased agriculture along the way. It's an excellent use of the land and is a far more sustainable way to develop the economy and lift the standard of living.

I'm also very impressed with what's happening where I live, Tijuana. Up until 25 or so years ago it was legal for homesteaders to build shacks on the hillsides and try to exist. Hence all the blight. The city has slowly but surely registering the properties and giving these people deeds. Which then allows them to sell to developers that are building new homes. Much in the same way the American West was populated and developed in the 1800s. The downtown area is in a constant state of redevelopment and the middle class is growing by leaps and bounds.

Jerry I'm not on anybody's payroll. And I have a good idea of where to put the effluent. But that won't happen. What will happen is that it will be piped into the Sea of Cortez and water from the aquifers will be used on the golf courses.

Don Alley - 5-22-2007 at 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
On my most recent drive to Todos Santos and back a few months ago I was very impressed with the increased agriculture along the way. It's an excellent use of the land and is a far more sustainable way to develop the economy and lift the standard of living.

Maybe. Is water use at sustainable levels? For a while, Todos Santos agriculture was slowed when the aquifer was depleted by overuse. Saline seep has also been a problem. Overgrazing is rampant. And farm jobs are not high paying.

While I find golf courses here kinda goofy, I would not jump to the conclusion that desert agriculture is a better way to use the land or the water. And I am not aware of any mechanism that would regulate water use for agriculture with greater sustainability than any other use for water, including golf courses.

But consider that my years as a Montana fisherman/conservationist have prejudiced me against agriculture more than my years working at an LA country club prejudiced me against golf. :fire:

jerry - 5-22-2007 at 11:04 AM

roundtuit
please reread the message to me about spelling??
seems you forgot a ( to) :lol:

jerry - 5-22-2007 at 11:09 AM

roundtuit
please reread the message to me about spelling??
seems you forgot a ( to) :lol:

DENNIS - 5-22-2007 at 11:15 AM

Give'm hell, Jerry.

etc

tehag - 5-22-2007 at 03:57 PM

The aquifers supporting much of that agriculture are mostly non-recharging fossil water and going down fast. The wells at Constitucion are deepened frequently and the end, while the timing is not known, is inevitable.

amir - 5-22-2007 at 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by tehag
... and the end, while the timing is not known, is inevitable.

This is exactly why we should build as many golf courses as possible NOW, while there is still water around. Enjoy it while we can! Life is short, and the days of plentiful water may inevitably be history. I've never golfed, but maybe I should take it up soon... in Loreto!

--Amir

roundtuit - 5-22-2007 at 06:32 PM

Got me Jerry :lol:

So my solution is to put in a golf course and plant onions, tomatoes, patatoes,lettuce, and other crops on the sides of the farway in the rough. And the shade trees could be lime, orange, avacado and other useful trees. This could all be watered and fertilzed by the catfish pond. :light:

jerry - 5-22-2007 at 10:36 PM

Roundtuit
truth be knowen your could injoying things grown under those conditions right now in the orient it has been common for ages to use to use fucal matter of all kinds as fiterliser i think its called organic??

Don Alley - 5-23-2007 at 07:31 AM

Paradise!

ta070522.gif - 27kB

backninedan - 5-23-2007 at 07:50 AM

Greap pic Don, wonder if the blimp will have flashing tecate signs.

vandenberg - 5-23-2007 at 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Don Alley
Paradise!

Loreto Bay, as seen from the water. :?:

Really not far off. Looking at it every day and eating the dust. First phase should be ready sometime before :?:

2015

oldhippie - 5-24-2007 at 07:51 AM

This is encouraging:

These articles were originally written in Spanish for who you would assume to be Mexican readers.

http://americas.irc-online.org/am/4080

http://americas.irc-online.org/am/4195

amir - 5-24-2007 at 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
This is encouraging:

These articles were originally written in Spanish for who you would assume to be Mexican readers.

http://americas.irc-online.org/am/4080

http://americas.irc-online.org/am/4195

Encouraging??? Not!!!
These articles spelled the destruction that will happen - it's depressing... Build it and they will come...

--Amir

oldhippie - 5-25-2007 at 07:49 AM

Amir,

I found those essays encouraging because they point out that there are local people and Mexican organizations also opposed to unchecked development. Given the messes (but profitable) tourist developments that have been created in Mexico, it appears that there wasn't any opposition before.

Like most if not all large construction projects in Mexico I would assume that Loreto Bay's success is entirely contingent upon pre-selling. Since Fonatur is not the builder, just the land owner, I don't think there will be much construction done on speculation. It's not a "build it they will come" project. It's more of a "if they come we'll build it" project. I bet Loreto Bay is paying Fonatur for the land as they sell the houses. I doubt they have pre-paid for it. And there is probably time limit on the deal. If sales really slow down, the LB execs will be in a bind. This is probably why they are so heavy on marketing and have cut deals with airlines and who knows who else to get this done quickly.

Anything that can throw a screwdriver in the works is a good thing. Local opposition is a big screwdriver.

amir - 5-25-2007 at 10:52 AM

Oldhippie,

I understand that local opposition is good. What depressed me was the long list of planned development: Harbors like Long Beach, gas pipelines, mega construction projects everywhere. Even if a small portion gets completed, the pristine nature of Baja gets eroded. Some of the quotes from officials also irked me - they don't have a clue, or maybe they do, but they invent statistics without really knowing what the outcome of their plans will be. There are always two sides to the same coin, it's the ignorance and indifference of the "other" side that bothers me.

--Amir

oldhippie - 5-26-2007 at 08:55 AM

Econergy, the company building the Loreto Bay wind turbine project, annual losses at 8.5 million this year, up from 2.2 million losses last year.

http://www.hemscott.com/news/latest-news/item.do?newsId=4273...

amir - 5-26-2007 at 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie

...annual losses at 8.5 million this year, up from 2.2 million losses last year.

No profits=no development. May it all fall down like a house of cards...

--Amir

The thieves are coming out of the woodwork

oldhippie - 5-29-2007 at 08:17 PM

http://www.platinumcapitalinternational.com/

Think I'll fill out their "secure" loan application, which BTW is not secure, and buy an authentic mexican house designed by canadians. :bounce:

Wow man, PLATINUM capital. Must be good. I only have a GOLD mastercard. I wonder if I qualify. MOON ROCK Capital turned me down.

Crusoe - 5-29-2007 at 08:53 PM

An Educated Observation....Just More Bogus Promotions.....What You Dont See..????... All thier adds focus on water views and fake little swiming pools with water and cheap water attachments, and bright contrasting colors. " "The good life" "Oh! wish I was there and owned it"... IS what they are espousing.....If life is so good in Arizona and So. Cal. why are all these afluents moving to Baja??.....But the reality is there is no drinking water!!Where in the world are they going to get housing for the workers?? And fresh healthy drinkling water??.....Where will their sewege end up? Who is going to take care of their young children and educate them?? It will not be the Mexican Politicos, That is for sure. ++C++

Phil S - 5-30-2007 at 08:09 AM

Old Hippie. Loreto Bay is too late to be stopped. But if you divert all this energy you are using to stop them, might it not be more rewarding if it was directed to the San Bruno development that "hasn't" gotten started yet??? Makes more sense to me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

wilderone - 5-30-2007 at 08:56 AM

It's not too late for LB to be stopped. They've built approx. 300 homes? 5,700 more to go? Look at it. Looks like Playas de Tijuana. The actual plan is 20 years hence. They would have to sell and build 285 homes per year for 20 years to meet their plan. Hasn't happened yet. A building moratorium, worker strike, anti-Loreto Bay website, a kiosk in town - preferably next door to the LB sales office - distributing the TRUTH, competing developments, the people and municipal government of Loreto, can all work toward promoting a sales and construction slowdown and maybe stopping it before it becomes the ghost town it's designed to be. Won't be too much longer that the wind generator plan will prove out (or not), and how much longer can they ignore the fact that their current water plan is not sustainable, and their desal plant is not feasible. Who can build an anti-LB website?

oldhippie - 5-30-2007 at 09:05 AM

Too late to be stopped? Nonsense! They haven't even built the desalination plant or wind turbines yet. There's no water and there's no power. Jesus, you can't even buy a decent pair of authentic mexican Gucci shoes there yet. The golf courses aren't landscaped, there's no place to recharge the golf cart batteries and there's no cardiac unit there either.

How can it be too late?

Plus, I've been telling my late night crew of ratero friends (TJ is full of them, as you've probably heard) that there's GOLD in Loreto, just sitting there for the taking. They're starting to drool in anticipation.

Has Loreto Bay provided a sustainable Loreto police force yet?

Lock it up Phil. You'll soon have authentic Mexican thugs rolling into town.

oldhippie - 5-30-2007 at 09:19 AM

Gotta go, it's morning, and my buddies are probably just waking up in the arroyos by the beach looking for their first Viva Villa gulp of the morning. I said earlier that I'm talking to other people about this. Who did you think I meant? Greenpeace?

gnukid - 5-30-2007 at 09:28 AM

Are people of non-mexican descent part of the community in mexico?

Do mexicans have more responsibilty or rights than people with another background to decide what happens in the community, now and in the future such as in loreto?

The "I am a gringo therefore I can't participate in managing mexico" - type of thinking is perpetuated by those who would prefer to excuse themselves from their responsibilties. If you live in mexico, whether with FMT, FM3 or FM2, mexican or naturalized, you are part of the mexican community, you have every single right and responsibilty as anyone else, you are a citizen according to the constitution and you must act to take care and participate in the management of your city and its resources, including managing the ecosystem and infrastructure.

Get involved, read the plans for future development and act to be sure the impact is reasonable and mitigated. Write your local goverment, ask questions of the municipality and developers, participate.

I am not suggesting it will be easy or fun, or will even have desired impact but it is your/our responsibility.

The lack of effort by non-natives to manage their infrastructure is precisely the source of the problem causing mismanaged growth.

Are gnu nuts?

Dave - 5-30-2007 at 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
The "I am a gringo therefore I can't participate in managing mexico" - type of thinking is perpetuated by those who would prefer to excuse themselves from their responsibilties. If you live in mexico, whether with FMT, FM3 or FM2, mexican or naturalized, you are part of the mexican community, you have every single right and responsibilty as anyone else, you are a citizen according to the constitution and you must act to take care and participate in the management of your city and its resources, including managing the ecosystem and infrastructure.

With an FMT/3/2 you are most certainly not a citizen.

Mexico doesn't want your imput, constitutionally forbids it and will deport you.

elgatoloco - 5-30-2007 at 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oldhippie
Gotta go, it's morning, and my buddies are probably just waking up in the arroyos by the beach looking for their first Viva Villa gulp of the morning. I said earlier that I'm talking to other people about this. Who did you think I meant? Greenpeace?

Hang in there!

comitan - 5-30-2007 at 11:11 AM

gnukid

If you think that, just drive around La Paz in a U.S. licensed car at election time with candidate posters. :bounce:

Skeet/Loreto - 5-30-2007 at 11:47 AM

gnukid:

May I ask "Where did you go to School"?
I have some very good Books for you to read as well as some Suggestions on some places to go to really experience Baja, Mexico and its People.

You might, just might change you mind.

Skeet

aquaholic - 5-30-2007 at 02:28 PM

...HERE WE GO, AGAIN...

The Spanish company, Fadesa, just announced that they are going to build a $5.4 billion development in Loreto with 6500 homes, etc...where are all the necessary items coming from if Loreto Bay is already taxing the system??? The infra-structure required will be beyond what Loreto can supply...Are there really that many folks that will buy into the Loreto developments..??? We have been talking about LB, and what it will mean for the community, and now, there is an even larger development announced. Has anyone seen any further info on this project..???

the original post to this thread...

flyfishinPam - 5-30-2007 at 02:34 PM

...refered to this one on www.tripadvisor.com well some more comments have been added. take a look:

http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g150772-i879-k1115386-L...

:no:

gnukid - 5-30-2007 at 03:54 PM

Isn't the issue at hand is whether the growth plan's impact may likely have a largely negative impact on the community and enviorment and whether or not it is a sustainable community plan?

Discuss these issues with neighbors and see what they have to say to you about participating in the community planning.

Dave, It's the basis of Mexican law, no you can't vote but you are an equal citizen with equal rights and responsibilty. Ask your senior immigraccion officer. Don't make excuses for yourself from your responsibilty to participate. And please dont speak for the mexican people collectively while disparaging my opinion-that's arrogant and absurd. And don't for one moment think you don't have a responsibilty to take care of the city where you live irrregardless of your status. The attitude that you are not welcome or not supposed to help or be involved politically in Baja are simply the ideas of a small group who do not represent the community, the history of Baja or the future, its not valid , nor was it ever.

Baja, like California is made up a diverse group of people who depend on each other to survive.

Skeet, I went to school at San Jose State, Cal Poly San Luis Obispo, and Universidad Autonomous Baja California Sur where I have studied and taught and worked on resources and educational materials about Baja history, the Mission's history, Native Indian history and cultural history. I just returned from a week living with the Seri people where I worked on documenting their history.
http://vps.ooto.com/032007/pages/IMG_0007.html

Comitan, Agundez invited me (and you) to attend some rallies for him and speak about integration issues and I did, not that I agree with all of his policies but yes I have a US plated car with political stickers (and even carry spares for my buddies).
http://vps.ooto.com/masbueno/pages/P1011678.htm

For the last 25 years I have spent about half the year living in baja's small villages, remote points among indians and also in Mexico City and La Paz among other places. I am simply learning, participating and being involved (why wouldn't you be involved?), documenting the history of the people of Baja and the current integration between Las Californias, Baja and El Norte.

I know, lots of you here disagree with me and with each other about your responsibilities at your vacation or permanent home, in regard to the role we should play as part of our communities. I respect that. I have a right to expouse and evangelize my opinion too, and I have a responsibilty to my neighbors, which is to remind you, basically we are all part of a diverse group with a common history who love it here in Baja. More so, the law and history has shaped my beliefs, if you live in mexico and you carry a current visa you are an equal citizen with equal responsibilities and protections.

What will happen if Loreto is built as planned and the 150,000 people their don't feel its their responsibilty to participate and manage their city?

If you dont want to participate dont, but dont step in the way of those who are particpating on planning, writing about issues, going to meetings and thinking about infrastructure issues and solutions. This is an espcially important time to be involved in Baja.

comitan - 5-30-2007 at 04:28 PM

Gnukid

I will inquire about us delving in Mexican Politics, because I'm only going on rummer.

bancoduo - 5-30-2007 at 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by comitan
Gnukid

I will inquire about us delving in Mexican Politics, because I'm only going on rummer.

I used to go on RUMMERS but now it's just beer :lol:

gnukid - 5-30-2007 at 04:35 PM

What I am refering to (politically) is related to discussing infrastructure, planning, water, sewage treatment, garbage, etc... not campaigning for or against a candidate or underming the government, such as supporting sub-commandante Marcos and the Zapatisitas-that is against the law as it would be in the US. I hope you see the difference and understand what is needed, positive, polite discussion about the community.

Don Alley - 5-30-2007 at 04:53 PM

There have been public meetings in Loreto on development issues. I have attended a few along with other expats. Gringos were welcome.

comitan - 5-30-2007 at 05:33 PM

Gnukid

yes I have a US plated car with political stickers (and even carry spares for my buddies).

This is not the sames water, sewer, and other meetings pertaining to our living and maintaining a home. And as you said above is against the law. That is if I'm reading you correctly.

You had best hope Mexico understands the difference.

Dave - 5-30-2007 at 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
What I am refering to (politically) is related to discussing infrastructure, planning, water, sewage treatment, garbage, etc... not campaigning for or against a candidate or underming the government, such as supporting sub-commandante Marcos and the Zapatisitas-that is against the law as it would be in the US. I hope you see the difference and understand what is needed, positive, polite discussion about the community.

Artículo 33.- Son extranjeros, los que no posean las calidades determinadas en el artículo 30. Tienen derecho a las garantías que otorga el Capítulo I, Título Primero, de la presente Constitución; pero el Ejecutivo de la Unión tendrá la facultad exclusiva de hacer abandonar el territorio nacional, inmediatamente y sin necesidad de juicio previo, a todo extranjero cuya permanencia juzgue inconveniente.

In Mexico, equal protection is a crap shoot. Especially if you get stuck between a politician and his money. :lol:

Gnukid, irregardless of what you have heard:

Only citizens are citizens.

gnukid - 5-30-2007 at 07:53 PM

Some of you are bit too incredulous in regard to the point that you are welcome to participate, so don't. Enjoy the mess. All the while individuals and groups are making gains by simply, politely asking good questions. Those are good people.

To even begin to discuss how we will deal with waste in mexico is big step, its a start.

To repeat, I stated, as I understand, foreigners legally residing in mexico have equal rights, protections and responsibilities of citizens, but you can not vote. I can see this a point which is difficult to accept, for some of you. You really are equal. And surprisingly some of your neighbors who are nationals may be looking to you to lead becuase you have experience and your are educated, you know how to make things work. I think its exciting to be working together to solve these problems while we still can have a significant effect.
Furthermore, Dave articulo 33 supports your point that what? It states (summarizing) that the president could remove you if you were working against the states of mexico.

So Dave is that your justification or is it a rationalization to not participate in ecology planning.

oldhippie - 5-30-2007 at 08:09 PM

HEY YOU GUYS

This thread is about Loreto Bay and there is no "issue" to debate in a civil manner. The place and it's big brother sprouting up to the North are going to fubar Loreto.

The only thing sustainable they need is a security force. The TJ gang is coming down. Afterall, we need a sustainable life too. Glass pipes are expensive and fragile. And we're not waiting for someone to build it for us, we're going to steal it. I'll announce our arrival with grafetti.

Of course I myself won't be there. I'll be running the Sustainable Crime Trust and developing partnerships with "transportation" companies and such. I also need to handle the press, if you know what I mean.

New kid, you seem like a smart guy. Either dumb it down or move to another thread. There's no room anymore on this thread for logic and reasoning. I'm following the lead of Washington DC. I'm going lie and get what I want through violence.

So stop this civility BS. Unless you want to chat about civil WAR.

Thank God!

Dave - 5-30-2007 at 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by gnukid
Furthermore, Dave articulo 33 supports your point that what? It states (summarizing) that the president could remove you if you were working against the states of mexico.

And here I always thought it said something else. I guess I really do have equal rights. :rolleyes:

Goody!

wilderone - 5-31-2007 at 12:43 PM

"I'm following the lead of Washington DC. I'm going lie and get what I want through violence."
You could play that smarter. You should follow the lead of the Mexican officials and get what you want through mordida and graft.

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