BajaNomad

Arizonas new Imigration Bill(This has turned into a Rat Hole)

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Barry A. - 4-29-2010 at 04:13 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
1.-I don't believe in open borders

2.-I believe the US has the right to control its borders

3.-If the US decides its necessary, they have the right to deport all illegals

4.-I believe the Mex goverment is responsible for Mexicans leaving for the US

5.-I believe US corporations, and to an extent, the US gov, allows this

6.-I don't think its right, to implements vague laws where you leave it up to police officers, to decide wether i should be asked for ID based on how i look


I agree with you on 1 thru 5, and I understand your feelings about number 6, but I submit that Police officers have always had the discretion of stopping you and asking for ID if they can articulate "probable cause" or "reasonable suspicion" as to why they are doing so, on both sides of the border. If they did not ask about your citizenship up to now, then that was because it was against local "policy". When I was a cop in San Diego in the early '60's we always asked about citizenship if we had any doubts, and if no ID turned them over to the Feds.

We are closer than you may think in our beliefs and feelings, I am thinking.

Barry

mtgoat666 - 4-29-2010 at 04:14 PM

the problem with zonies/other govts is that they want to focus on pursuing the undocumented immigrants instead of pursuing the US employers.

it would be easier and cheaper to end immigration problems by going after the employers, but zonies/other govts don't care to go after employers, because voters (white middle age and old age) are stupid/racist/xenophobic and are appeased if they see their govts simply chase around a few poor foreign people.

the primary reason border fence sections were built is that it made good PR for idiots like hunter, and it provided govt funds to construction firms. the wall is mostly pork.

comitan - 4-29-2010 at 04:14 PM

JESSE

Thats it in a nutshell, very well said for me.

OK Goat, I'm with you on that.

Anyone else.:bounce:

[Edited on 4-29-2010 by comitan]

rts551 - 4-29-2010 at 04:16 PM

Barry

If thats the case then we really didn't need a new law. did we

Ralph
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
1.-I don't believe in open borders

2.-I believe the US has the right to control its borders

3.-If the US decides its necessary, they have the right to deport all illegals

4.-I believe the Mex goverment is responsible for Mexicans leaving for the US

5.-I believe US corporations, and to an extent, the US gov, allows this

6.-I don't think its right, to implements vague laws where you leave it up to police officers, to decide wether i should be asked for ID based on how i look


I agree with you on 1 thru 5, and I understand your feelings about number 6, but I submit that Police officers have always had the discretion of stopping you and asking for ID if they can articulate "probable cause" or "reasonable suspicion" as to why they are doing so, on both sides of the border. If they did not ask about your citizenship up to now, then that was because it was against local "policy". When I was a cop in San Diego in the early '60's we always asked about citizenship if we had any doubts, and if no ID turned them over to the Feds.

We are closer than you may think in our beliefs and feelings, I am thinking.

Barry

tripledigitken - 4-29-2010 at 04:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
the problem with zonies/other govts is that they want to focus on pursuing the undocumented immigrants instead of pursuing the US employers.

it would be easier and cheaper to end immigration problems by going after the employers, but zonies/other govts don't care to go after employers, because voters (white middle age and old age) are stupid/racist/xenophobic and are appeased if they see their govts simply chase around a few poor foreign people.

the primary reason border fence sections were built is that it made good PR for idiots like hunter, and it provided govt funds to construction firms. the wall is mostly pork.


Quit embarrassing yourself and read the bill.
It only takes about 15 minutes, you'll find in Off-Topic.

Barry A. - 4-29-2010 at 04:20 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
" Sure, but not "to busy" to take up Cap and Tax, I bet!!!"

Barry.... back to sleep

Arizona ranks 19th in total taxes and the Republican/conservative dominated legislature is looking at another 1 percent increase in sales tax... its not just your hatred lefties


rts, I don't "hate" lefties-----some of my best friends are lefties and we spar verbally constantly. Lately, the Repubs have been drunken-sailor spenders just like the Dems-------little difference. It's ALL appalling to me. "Sleep" is impossible under the circumstances. (except at night)

Barry

DENNIS - 4-29-2010 at 04:22 PM

What needs to be done here is to redefine the term, "Racist." Right now it's only being used as a weapon.
If everybody here who has been called a racist said, "OK....I'm a racist. Now what?"
I think a lot of folks would be left with nothing to fight with.

Barry A. - 4-29-2010 at 04:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
Barry

If thats the case then we really didn't need a new law.


Of course we don't need a new law---------like I said many times, I think they (AZ) wants to get the attention of the Feds., and use this "new law" as a baseball bat, or "big stick" to try and get the Feds to DO SOMETHING ----NOW!!!! or at least SOON.

Will it work??? that remains to be seen, but SOMETHING has got to be done, and NOW!!!!

If you are an "open border" person, all this dialogue is just smoke and mirrors to create doubt, fear, anger, defuse any progress, and move towards their end-------Open Borders. Bad idea!!! and it is not going to happen.

Barry

[Edited on 4-29-2010 by Barry A.]

JESSE - 4-29-2010 at 04:39 PM

Quote:

I submit that Police officers have always had the discretion of stopping you and asking for ID if they can articulate "probable cause" or "reasonable suspicion" as to why they are doing so, on both sides of the border. If they did not ask about your citizenship up to now, then that was because it was against local "policy".


It is one thing for Police to stop you and ask for an ID if they feel theres a posibility of some sort of criminal activity, and a whole different thing to stop you simply because you might be an illegal.

Why?

Because the determination to stop you, is going to be based solely on the color of your skin. If your a Canadian illegal, unless you commit a crime, or do something that might be considered suspicious, nobody is going to ask for your papers. But if i am Mexican, and i haven't done anything wrong, but a cop thinks for whatever reason, that i might be illegal, hes going to ask me.

It is clearly two different treatments for two people based on how they look.

Theres already enough problems with some police officers that don't like Mexicans. I hate to see how this law is going to be enforced by them.

[Edited on 4-29-2010 by JESSE]

mtgoat666 - 4-29-2010 at 04:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
[Of course we don't need a new law---------like I said many times, I think they (AZ) wants to get the attention of the Feds., and use this "new law" as a baseball bat, or "big stick" to try and get the Feds to DO SOMETHING ----NOW!!!! or at least SOON.


no, the law is not the baby (zonies) crying to mommy (feds) for attention. the only rxn by feds will be feds over-ruling AZ law, which zonie republicans would like to drum up white votes for november.
more likely, root of the law is hate mangering by republicans to drum up votes for next election (have you read about the long association of the primary bill author with hate groups?). republicans found that beating up on immigrants gets white votes. sad but true

Barry A. - 4-29-2010 at 04:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:

I submit that Police officers have always had the discretion of stopping you and asking for ID if they can articulate "probable cause" or "reasonable suspicion" as to why they are doing so, on both sides of the border. If they did not ask about your citizenship up to now, then that was because it was against local "policy".


It is one thing for Police to stop you and ask for an ID if they feel theres a posibility of some sort of criminal activity, and a whole different thing to stop you simply because you might be an illegal.

Why?

Because the determination to stop you, is going to be based solely on the color of your skin. If your a Canadian illegal, unless you commit a crime, or do something that might be considered suspicious, nobody is going to ask for your papers. But if i am Mexican, and i haven't done anything wrong, but a cop thinks for whatever reason, that i might be illegal, hes going to ask me.

It is clearly two different treatments for two people based on how they look.

Theres already enough problems with some police officers that don't like Mexicans. I hate to see how this law is going to be enforced by them.

[Edited on 4-29-2010 by JESSE]


Arggggggg-----Jesse, being "illegal" IS criminal activity!!!!!

Barry

Barry A. - 4-29-2010 at 04:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
[Of course we don't need a new law---------like I said many times, I think they (AZ) wants to get the attention of the Feds., and use this "new law" as a baseball bat, or "big stick" to try and get the Feds to DO SOMETHING ----NOW!!!! or at least SOON.


no, the law is not the baby (zonies) crying to mommy (feds) for attention. the only rxn by feds will be feds over-ruling AZ law, which zonie republicans would like to drum up white votes for november.
more likely, root of the law is hate mangering by republicans to drum up votes for next election (have you read about the long association of the primary bill author with hate groups?). republicans found that beating up on immigrants gets white votes. sad but true


Incredible!!!!!! You are truly paranoid!!!! I am getting a head ache just reading your posts. Yes, boooooooo!!!!! we are all racists out to git you, and those brownskin folks from down south!!!! You got our number, for sure, for sure. The word "dunderhead" comes to mind (love that word-----havn't had a chance to use it for a long time) :lol:

Barry

oxxo - 4-29-2010 at 04:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
I think they (AZ) wants to get the attention of the Feds., and use this "new law" as a baseball bat, or "big stick" to try and get the Feds to DO SOMETHING ----NOW!!!! or at least SOON.


Then Arizona should have passed a tough law that goes after the employers of undocumented workers......from any country. No, they had to pass a law that goes after a whole class (culture) of people and that's why this new law is discriminatory and will be found unconstitional. The politican said that you can tell an illegal Mexican by the shoes he wears. Is wearing the wrong kind of shoes probable cause (with my fat legs, I better stop wearing shorts)? I wonder how that applies to the Al Quaida terrorist who sneaks across the border? What kind of shoes does a terrorist wear? This law is aimed squarely at Mexicans in Arizona, whether legal or illegal, and that is wrong. We will never see how it is actually enforced because it will be thrown out before then.

I don't expect to change any minds here, but one has to stand up for what is right and fair.

Barry A. - 4-29-2010 at 05:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oxxo
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
I think they (AZ) wants to get the attention of the Feds., and use this "new law" as a baseball bat, or "big stick" to try and get the Feds to DO SOMETHING ----NOW!!!! or at least SOON.


Then Arizona should have passed a tough law that goes after the employers of undocumented workers......from any country. No, they had to pass a law that goes after a whole class (culture) of people and that's why this new law is discriminatory and will be found unconstitional. The politican said that you can tell an illegal Mexican by the shoes he wears. Is wearing the wrong kind of shoes probable cause (with my fat legs, I better stop wearing shorts)? I wonder how that applies to the Al Quaida terrorist who sneaks across the border? What kind of shoes does a terrorist wear? This law is aimed squarely at Mexicans in Arizona, whether legal or illegal, and that is wrong. We will never see how it is actually enforced because it will be thrown out before then.

I don't expect to change any minds here, but one has to stand up for what is right and fair.


Correct me if wrong, but is there not already a law against the employers??? I agree that it should be aggressively enforced if there is one. You make an interesting point here, Oxxo, if you are correct. But no, it is NOT a law against "Latinos", only illegals.

Barry

mtgoat666 - 4-29-2010 at 05:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
we are all racists out to git you, and those brownskin folks from down south!!!! You got our number, for sure, for sure.
Barry


you said it.

you are a fool to think that politicians don't play you. you fall for it hook, line and sinker, and are never aware of it.

the republicans like to say they are inclusive moderates, but they wink and look other way when their extreme right wingnuts uses hate speech and racism to drum up votes and $$.

barry, you do not have to defend everything your party does. this is not Mao's china -- the party will not assign you to a re-education camp if you grow a pair and stand up against the bigots in your party.

bajalou - 4-29-2010 at 05:07 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.


Arggggggg-----Jesse, being "illegal" IS criminal activity!!!!!

Barry


But Barry, what criteria do you use to decide that someone driving down the road or walking down the street "might" be guilty of being in the US illegally? What constitutes "Suspicious behavior"? I think that's the crux of a lot of the arguments.

JESSE - 4-29-2010 at 05:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:

I submit that Police officers have always had the discretion of stopping you and asking for ID if they can articulate "probable cause" or "reasonable suspicion" as to why they are doing so, on both sides of the border. If they did not ask about your citizenship up to now, then that was because it was against local "policy".


It is one thing for Police to stop you and ask for an ID if they feel theres a posibility of some sort of criminal activity, and a whole different thing to stop you simply because you might be an illegal.

Why?

Because the determination to stop you, is going to be based solely on the color of your skin. If your a Canadian illegal, unless you commit a crime, or do something that might be considered suspicious, nobody is going to ask for your papers. But if i am Mexican, and i haven't done anything wrong, but a cop thinks for whatever reason, that i might be illegal, hes going to ask me.

It is clearly two different treatments for two people based on how they look.

Theres already enough problems with some police officers that don't like Mexicans. I hate to see how this law is going to be enforced by them.

[Edited on 4-29-2010 by JESSE]


Arggggggg-----Jesse, being "illegal" IS criminal activity!!!!!

Barry


And i don't have a problem if they are targeted, but regular decent law abiding legal mexicans shouldn't be harrased by this law, when whites are not.

rts551 - 4-29-2010 at 05:17 PM

Barry... Arizona, as a State, can be discriminatory. Always has been. I live here and it is nothing new. There have been jokes about the behavior here for years.

Foe fun you should look at some of the other laws they have tried to pass... But hey, we have the OK corral. and..........Phoenix

DENNIS - 4-29-2010 at 05:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Theres already enough problems with some police officers that don't like Mexicans. I hate to see how this law is going to be enforced by them.



Actually, there are police officers who don't like anybody. Have you been through the border lately?
That's a zone where profiling is a standard tool and not just for race. Why don't we hear a bunch of screaming about that?

mtgoat666 - 4-29-2010 at 05:22 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajalou
Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.


Arggggggg-----Jesse, being "illegal" IS criminal activity!!!!!

Barry


But Barry, what criteria do you use to decide that someone driving down the road or walking down the street "might" be guilty of being in the US illegally? What constitutes "Suspicious behavior"? I think that's the crux of a lot of the arguments.



According to Brian Bibray, a San Diego Republican (50th District) "[Police] will look at the kind of dress you wear, there's different type of attire, there's different type of...right down to the shoes, right down to the clothes."

I have undertaken a study of the workers in my neighborhood and will report back to you with my findings.

Yesterday I saw an illegal wearing jeans and Tevas,... and I know many of you Nomads wear jeans Tevas (albeit, many of you wear mom jeans)

DENNIS - 4-29-2010 at 05:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Yesterday I saw an illegal wearing jeans and Tevas


How did you establish he was illegal?

David K - 4-29-2010 at 05:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by irenemm
My 17 year old granddaughter born in Ensenada and has lived her whole life in Vicente Guerrero sums it up for me. She does have a green card.
If you did not do anything wrong what is the problem. If they ask me for papers and I have them what is the problem. If I don't have them then I guess I am breaking the law. You pay the price for breaking the law
I like her thinking
Just 17


BRAVO! SHE'S A GENIOUS! SAYS IT ALL...

(No matter how many times anyone tells Goat and Jesse that there is no random stopping of Mexican looking people in this bill, they continue to say it does... So, as long as you believe a lie then you can never be satisfied with the facts: In the process of questioning someone for ANOTHER reason/ like being drunk in public/ they can now ask for documentation IF they don't have a Arizona drivers license or U.S. issued ID.)

It's so easy, even a caveman can do it (figure it out)! :lol::light:

Close the thread Doug, before any more amigos turn into enemies over this!

oldlady - 4-29-2010 at 05:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajalou

But Barry, what criteria do you use to decide that someone driving down the road or walking down the street "might" be guilty of being in the US illegally? What constitutes "Suspicious behavior"? I think that's the crux of a lot of the arguments.

The criteria isn't as capricious as many here are concerned about. There are legal cases that establish the precednt and therefore the ciriteria. One of them (aging memor ytime here) is Tarry vs something, because it gave rise to the name "tarry stop". Most law enforcement officers are very well trained in the criteria.
Some are immediately going to yell, "they will profile anyway". I'm not going to deny that possibility. If it happens, suits will be brought, cops will be fired and lose their pensions and the law might even be struck down, depending on the court. The Feds, if they can demonstrate standing may challenge the state's right to implement the law at all. That challenge would most likely have nothing to do with race and could have more far reaching consequences.

JESSE - 4-29-2010 at 05:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by irenemm
My 17 year old granddaughter born in Ensenada and has lived her whole life in Vicente Guerrero sums it up for me. She does have a green card.
If you did not do anything wrong what is the problem. If they ask me for papers and I have them what is the problem. If I don't have them then I guess I am breaking the law. You pay the price for breaking the law
I like her thinking
Just 17


BRAVO! SHE'S A GENIOUS! SAYS IT ALL...

(No matter how many times anyone tells Goat and Jesse that there is no random stopping of Mexican looking people in this bill, they continue to say it does... So, as long as you believe a lie then you can never be satisfied with the facts: In the process of questioning someone for ANOTHER reason/ like being drunk in public/ they can now ask for documentation IF they don't have a Arizona drivers license or U.S. issued ID.)

It's so easy, even a caveman can do it (figure it out)! :lol::light:

Close the thread Doug, before any more amigos turn into enemies over this!


Just because you claim or believe there will be no random stops, it doesn't mean its true. This law was created using very vague words like "lawful contact", "reasonable doubt", and this was done in purpose. Why didn't they use very clear guidelines and words to explain it?

You claim they can't just stop you randomly, then why didn't they just write that on the bill? and avoid such mess?

You know exactly why, but your ignoring it.

DENNIS - 4-29-2010 at 05:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Close the thread Doug, before any more amigos turn into enemies over this!



No No No...........Please don't close it before Goat has a chance to tell us what acceptable profiling method he used to establish that a man on the street was illegal. His technique may be what we need to solve this issue.

too many U2Us asking me to re-post this

capt. mike - 4-29-2010 at 05:39 PM

here so.....from Off TOPIC newz....

finally AZ does the RIGHT thing!!
be legal or get out.
stop looting our social services. stop sending money out of the country - about $28 BILLION a year.

the denouncers have their facts WRONG and need to read the law - cops cannot profile or make random stops - it's not a gestapo deal - they have to have probable cause and then can inquire if they have a proper ID which can be a DL or a gov't issued one.
that's it - if you cannot prove reasonable circumstance of citizenship or OTHER legal means of presence like visitors visa etc - you get hauled off!!
the feds refuse to watch our border - AZ takes the upper hand. one rancher murdered is one too many. :fire::mad:

thx good people of Nomadlandia...
we know we are RIGHT in this...

ok, back to the news - Shakira is on!! wow is she smart! she has a news conference here in Phx... did she go to the University of P.O. Box 2000?? but in Columbia??:light:
oh wait...now she is tearing up...if i was holding a concert ticket i'd be tearing it up!!:lol::lol:

David K - 4-29-2010 at 05:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by irenemm
My 17 year old granddaughter born in Ensenada and has lived her whole life in Vicente Guerrero sums it up for me. She does have a green card.
If you did not do anything wrong what is the problem. If they ask me for papers and I have them what is the problem. If I don't have them then I guess I am breaking the law. You pay the price for breaking the law
I like her thinking
Just 17


BRAVO! SHE'S A GENIOUS! SAYS IT ALL...

(No matter how many times anyone tells Goat and Jesse that there is no random stopping of Mexican looking people in this bill, they continue to say it does... So, as long as you believe a lie then you can never be satisfied with the facts: In the process of questioning someone for ANOTHER reason/ like being drunk in public/ they can now ask for documentation IF they don't have a Arizona drivers license or U.S. issued ID.)

It's so easy, even a caveman can do it (figure it out)! :lol::light:

Close the thread Doug, before any more amigos turn into enemies over this!


Just because you claim or believe there will be no random stops, it doesn't mean its true. This law was created using very vague words like "lawful contact", "reasonable doubt", and this was done in purpose. Why didn't they use very clear guidelines and words to explain it?

You claim they can't just stop you randomly, then why didn't they just write that on the bill? and avoid such mess?

You know exactly why, but your ignoring it.


It's like a "so what?", Jesse... Police in Mexico and maybe here pull over people that really didn't do something... STILL, IF YOU ARE NOT ILLEGALLY IN ARIZONA, what is bothering you? If you are not breaking the law, then you have NOTHING to fear... Same story for Mexican army checkpoints or the border or the police, anywhere.

oldlady - 4-29-2010 at 05:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Just because you claim or believe there will be no random stops, it doesn't mean its true. This law was created using very vague words like "lawful contact", "reasonable doubt", and this was done in purpose. Why didn't they use very clear guidelines and words to explain it?

You claim they can't just stop you randomly, then why didn't they just write that on the bill? and avoid such mess?

You know exactly why, but your ignoring it.


Most of our laws are written this way Jesse. Terms like lawful contact are defined and tested in a body of hundreds if not thousands of cases. Law Enforcement knows what it means.

oxxo - 4-29-2010 at 05:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Yesterday I saw an illegal wearing jeans and Tevas


How did you establish he was illegal?


That's the point! :lol:

JESSE - 4-29-2010 at 06:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Quote:
Originally posted by David K
Quote:
Originally posted by irenemm
My 17 year old granddaughter born in Ensenada and has lived her whole life in Vicente Guerrero sums it up for me. She does have a green card.
If you did not do anything wrong what is the problem. If they ask me for papers and I have them what is the problem. If I don't have them then I guess I am breaking the law. You pay the price for breaking the law
I like her thinking
Just 17


BRAVO! SHE'S A GENIOUS! SAYS IT ALL...

(No matter how many times anyone tells Goat and Jesse that there is no random stopping of Mexican looking people in this bill, they continue to say it does... So, as long as you believe a lie then you can never be satisfied with the facts: In the process of questioning someone for ANOTHER reason/ like being drunk in public/ they can now ask for documentation IF they don't have a Arizona drivers license or U.S. issued ID.)

It's so easy, even a caveman can do it (figure it out)! :lol::light:

Close the thread Doug, before any more amigos turn into enemies over this!


Just because you claim or believe there will be no random stops, it doesn't mean its true. This law was created using very vague words like "lawful contact", "reasonable doubt", and this was done in purpose. Why didn't they use very clear guidelines and words to explain it?

You claim they can't just stop you randomly, then why didn't they just write that on the bill? and avoid such mess?

You know exactly why, but your ignoring it.


It's like a "so what?", Jesse... Police in Mexico and maybe here pull over people that really didn't do something... STILL, IF YOU ARE NOT ILLEGALLY IN ARIZONA, what is bothering you? If you are not breaking the law, then you have NOTHING to fear... Same story for Mexican army checkpoints or the border or the police, anywhere.


For all of those that support this law, i would love to see your reactions, if Baja created a law, where cops in any legal contact, and with reasonable suspicion, could ask you for your papers, and if you didn't have them, you would be hold until your immigration status was determined.

Do you sincerely think i am such an idiot to believe the cops would ask for their immigration papers, to the same numbers of Mexicans than whites?

Would you like to live in such state?

You would all be gathering up and treatening with selling your homes, and crippling tourism at the very least.

mtgoat666 - 4-29-2010 at 06:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Yesterday I saw an illegal wearing jeans and Tevas


How did you establish he was illegal?


well, he was speaking spanish and wearing a UCLA t-shirt :lol:

oldlady - 4-29-2010 at 06:27 PM

It's what we call a "loaded" question because you have already decided that law is racially motivated.
For some of us it isn't a matter of supporting the law or not supporting the law.
We are interpreting its purpose differently.

I don't think you are an idiot. It is extremely rare when a cop has lawful contact with an individual (assuming it is a non violent apprehension) that the first words out of the cops mouth aren't "may I see your id?" depending. If a white person produces a valid US drivers' license, it not likely they will ask for immigration papers. But if white, don't have a drivers license, don't understand English, guarantee you they will ask for immigration docs. especially if they are white...think about it.
Hey, I get asked for my passport and/or visa all the time here. Don't think a thing about it.

[Edited on 4-30-2010 by oldlady]

monoloco - 4-29-2010 at 06:27 PM

I just read that the Democrats are ready to introduce immigration reform that includes picture SSI cards with biometric information that will be impossible to forge. I wonder how long it will take the Republicans to come out against it?

DENNIS - 4-29-2010 at 06:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
For all of those that support this law, i would love to see your reactions, if Baja created a law, where cops in any legal contact, and with reasonable suspicion, could ask you for your papers, and if you didn't have them, you would be hold until your immigration status was determined.



It happened to me. Somebody wanted me out of here. They made a phone call to somebody who knows somebody and I was picked up by the local police. I had no papers at the time so they held me for three days, turned me over to immigration and I was deported.
The reason used by the head of immigration was that I'm an activist. Since I had no idea what they were talking about, I asked what type of activist, they said, "I don't know."
I guess it would have been futile to try a discussion of law and probable cause with them, but they were right. I was illegal and I was out the door.

oldlady - 4-29-2010 at 06:35 PM

How active were you? Enquiring minds.....

JESSE - 4-29-2010 at 06:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
For all of those that support this law, i would love to see your reactions, if Baja created a law, where cops in any legal contact, and with reasonable suspicion, could ask you for your papers, and if you didn't have them, you would be hold until your immigration status was determined.



It happened to me. Somebody wanted me out of here. They made a phone call to somebody who knows somebody and I was picked up by the local police. I had no papers at the time so they held me for three days, turned me over to immigration and I was deported.
The reason used by the head of immigration was that I'm an activist. Since I had no idea what they were talking about, I asked what type of activist, they said, "I don't know."
I guess it would have been futile to try a discussion of law and probable cause with them, but they were right. I was illegal and I was out the door.


Someone reported you, i don't have a problem with someone reporting an illegal Mexican in Arizona. A whole different thing would be if a local cop arrested you out of "reasonable doubt" that you where here illegally, i would not be in support of such a thing down here.

oldlady - 4-29-2010 at 06:47 PM

Nah....this "reasonable suspicion" thing. like any law, isn't perfect. Having civilians reporting people soley because they are illegal, or an activist and illegal, isn't the direction any one (exceot the real nut cases) wants to go in.

DENNIS - 4-29-2010 at 06:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Someone reported you, i don't have a problem with someone reporting an illegal Mexican in Arizona.


That's funny. Report it to whom?
Jesse...talking with you on this issue is like talking to the wall. Your mind is made up, even in the face of strong arguement.
Boycott Arizona. I couldn't care less.

JESSE - 4-29-2010 at 06:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE
Someone reported you, i don't have a problem with someone reporting an illegal Mexican in Arizona.


That's funny. Report it to whom?
Jesse...talking with you on this issue is like talking to the wall. Your mind is made up, even in the face of strong arguement.
Boycott Arizona. I couldn't care less.


I read nothing strong about your argument.

DENNIS - 4-29-2010 at 06:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JESSE

I read nothing strong about your argument.


I wasn't arguing.....just telling a story about something you said wouldn't happen.
Others here have presented point after point that you and others in your camp won't acknowledge. That's the problem with internet debate. It turns blind stupidity into a technique.

Barry A. - 4-29-2010 at 06:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by monoloco
I just read that the Democrats are ready to introduce immigration reform that includes picture SSI cards with biometric information that will be impossible to forge. I wonder how long it will take the Republicans to come out against it?


Not this Republican-----I am all for it. Bring it on!!!! I have been for a National ID card for years.

Barry

oldlady - 4-29-2010 at 07:18 PM

Me too, seems like it would go a long way to relieve a lot of issues.

The Sculpin - 4-29-2010 at 07:51 PM

Even the Texas Governor thinks this law is stoooooopid...this from the "death penalty" state...oh wait - I can hear it now...."he's not a real republican"

Other than ignoring the 4th and 14th, as Perry says, this makes state LE do something that they're not trained, equiped, paid, or have the authority to do. How this small fact escaped AZ lawmakers is beyond me......

However, let me be clear...I still think the intent of this law was to get the feds to act. Unfortunately, it inspiried a flock of loons to spout off on things they know nothing about, using anecdotal evidence as fact to support uninspired arguements that betray the laws of reason, logic, and debate (present company excepted...naturally).:cool:


- Associated Press
- April 29, 2010
Texas Governor: Arizona Immigration Law Not Right for Texas

The Arizona law will require local and state law enforcement officers to question people about their immigration status if there's reason to suspect they're in the country illegally, making it a crime for them to lack registration documents.


AUSTIN, Texas -- Arizona's tough new illegal immigration enforcement law would not be right for Texas, Gov. Rick Perry said Thursday, upholding the state's long-held tradition of rejecting harsh anti-immigrant policies.

The Arizona law will require local and state law enforcement officers to question people about their immigration status if there's reason to suspect they're in the country illegally, making it a crime for them to lack registration documents. The law also makes it a state crime to be in the U.S. illegally.

"I fully recognize and support a state's right and obligation to protect its citizens, but I have concerns with portions of the law passed in Arizona and believe it would not be the right direction for Texas," Perry said in a written statement.

"For example, some aspects of the law turn law enforcement officers into immigration officials by requiring them to determine immigration status during any lawful contact with a suspected alien, taking them away from their existing law enforcement duties, which are critical to keeping citizens safe."

The Arizona law has been hailed by conservatives as long overdue and two Texas lawmakers have said they'll introduce similar immigration measures when the Texas Legislature meets next.
Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano told a U.S. Senate hearing Tuesday that a Justice Department review is under way to determine the Arizona law's constitutionality.

Though Texas is ruled by conservative Republicans, top GOP leaders from former Texas Gov. George W. Bush to Perry have rejected harsh and punitive immigration policies.

Bush continued his moderate approach to immigration once he got to the White House, often to the dismay of his conservative base.

"We need to uphold the great tradition of the melting pot that welcomes and assimilates new arrivals," Bush said in his 2007 State of the Union address. "We need to resolve the status of the immigrants that are already in our country without animosity and without amnesty."

Perry took heat during this year's Republican primary for backing in-state tuition for illegal immigrants, saying in a debate that the students are on a path to citizenship.

"Texas has a rich history with Mexico, our largest trading partner, and we share more than 1,200 miles of border, more than any other state," Perry said Thursday. "As the debate on immigration reform intensifies, the focus must remain on border security and the federal government's failure to adequately protect our borders.

"Securing our border is a federal responsibility, but it is a Texas problem, and it must be addressed before comprehensive immigration reform is discussed."

[Edited on 4-30-2010 by The Sculpin]

[Edited on 4-30-2010 by The Sculpin]

I forgot...

toneart - 4-29-2010 at 08:14 PM

Why do some of you want Mexican-American Citizens of the United States pulled over and asked for their papers?:rolleyes:

Mexicorn - 4-29-2010 at 08:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
Just how STUPID Liberals really are.

But, Toneart reminded me.



You remind me how aaaanal right wingers can be!:P

Barry A. - 4-29-2010 at 08:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by toneart
Why do some of you want Mexican-American Citizens of the United States pulled over and asked for their papers?:rolleyes:


I have not heard one supporter of this new law state that they want "----Mexican-American Citizens of the United States pullled over-----"!

Tony, why do you even say this???

Barry

Packoderm - 4-29-2010 at 09:18 PM

"For example, some aspects of the law turn law enforcement officers into immigration officials by requiring them to determine immigration status during any lawful contact with a suspected alien, taking them away from their existing law enforcement duties, which are critical to keeping citizens safe."

What a load. Law enforcement has doubled as child protection service officials and other duties that cross jurisdiction. I'm surprised that the anti illegal immigration issue isn't more espoused by the working class that so happens to be more affected by the displacement of jobs and the devaluation of vocations.

oxxo - 4-29-2010 at 09:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by oldlady
isn't the direction any one (exceot the real nut cases) wants to go in.


You saying ALL people in Arizona are "real nut cases"? Some definitely yes, but not all.

DENNIS - 4-29-2010 at 09:30 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by toneart
Why do some of you want Mexican-American Citizens of the United States pulled over and asked for their papers?:rolleyes:


Maybe they should ask everybody for their papers. Black...White...Brown...Blue...everybody. Just get it over with. It's only a matter of time anyway.

toneart - 4-29-2010 at 09:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by toneart
Why do some of you want Mexican-American Citizens of the United States pulled over and asked for their papers?:rolleyes:


I have not heard one supporter of this new law state that they want "----Mexican-American Citizens of the United States pullled over-----"!

Tony, why do you even say this???

Barry


Because you and I know they will not state it.

Stupid is as Toneart Says

MrBillM - 4-29-2010 at 09:50 PM

AND, we're glad to see it demonstrated in writing.

While it SHOULD be evident to even Liberal Retards, the LAST thing a supporter of this law would want to see is Mexican-AMERICANS be pulled over and harassed.

Having that happen would be truly counter-productive and simply serve to bolster the Idiotic ramblings of the Left.

BUT, Logic has Never been a Liberal strength.

Mexicorn - 4-29-2010 at 11:35 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Barry A.
Quote:
Originally posted by monoloco
I just read that the Democrats are ready to introduce immigration reform that includes picture SSI cards with biometric information that will be impossible to forge. I wonder how long it will take the Republicans to come out against it?


Not this Republican-----I am all for it. Bring it on!!!! I have been for a National ID card for years.

Barry


Barry please tell me more about this national ID card idea? Would it be able to track ones whereabouts? Would it replace the SSI card? Drivers license? Voter registration card?
Tell me more you've peaked my Liberal interest. Please enlighten?

Mexicorn - 4-30-2010 at 12:00 AM

Freedom March Sign my up BRING IT!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iyj9C7MTRrA

Cypress - 4-30-2010 at 05:13 AM

Indications are that 60 to 70 percent of the people polled are for the new law. Maybe a good portion of the 30 to 40 percent against the new law were illegals or hired illegals?

oldlady - 4-30-2010 at 05:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by oxxo
Quote:
Originally posted by oldlady
isn't the direction any one (exceot the real nut cases) wants to go in.


You saying ALL people in Arizona are "real nut cases"? Some definitely yes, but not all.



Perfect example of context extraction to distort meaning and intent.

Not what I was saying at all.

Toneart, there are plenty of us, who, if we felt that way we would state it.

Arizona has a problem and its significant. Significant enough that it has received media coverage with increasing frequency, by liberal and conservative outlets. The problem isn't Mexicans. Mexicans have been migrating into AZ for decades, legally and illegaly. If most of the people of AZ were racists, the media, the activists, the race baiters would have capitalized on that long before now. The problem is crime. And I'd be willing to bet, without data that a lot of the victims of that crime are legal and illegal immigrants. Arizona believes that better efforts to stem illegal immigration will reduce crime. No one here has proved a case that they are wrong. Nor has anyone offered an alternative solution.
What Arizona did do was ask the Federal Government to do its job.
5 times. No response. Which, given that DHS is run by the former Governor of Arizona, I find puzzling. No meetings, letters no task force to at least show some interest in stepping up efforts to solve the problem. Someone, anyone, tell me why the president didn't make even a brief show of recognition and response?
Do I think it is a great solution? No. But what I find disturbing is the quickness with which so many make nasty racial judgements, solid unshakeable judgements and active retributions before anyone has been wronged! No one can prove racial motivation here.

The only thing that's been done so far is to created fear, perhaps even panic that a class of people will be treated harshly, even inhumanely, based on words on a piece of paper that haven't even been enacted yet.
Jesse doesn't understand our legal system, no reflection Jess, most of us don't either. You set foot on US soil and you are in one of the most protected (at every level) places in the world. NO MATTER WHAT COLOR YOU ARE. Perfect? No, better than most. And we try, harder than anywhere to make it better every day.

The governor of Arizona is forcing the issue with the Administration. Obviously the situation is important enough to her that she is willing to take a lot of heat to do that. She knew all hell would break loose. The activists are always ready to pounce and yell racism and demonstrate (you don't get thousands on the street over night without a plan and a ready to go network). The media loves it. The Federal government let it get out of hand and they are the only ones who can solve it. How the administration and/or Congress will respond is anyone's guess. But all the news and fear about racism buys them time and moves the focus away from them. Campaign contributions gettin a boost.
Another one is brewing right now in Chicago. Not immigration so much..but with a racial component.






[Edited on 4-30-2010 by oldlady]

monoloco - 4-30-2010 at 06:17 AM

This law will be positive for Arizona, once all the illegals are gone there will be a lot of good jobs cleaning motel rooms, washing dishes, and picking fruit for all the folks who lost their jobs due to the reduction of the Arizona population by 400,000 people.

yellowtail67 - 4-30-2010 at 06:32 AM

It's no frickin' wonder this country is SO divided with an US vs. THEM (browns/whites, Rep./Dem, etc....) mentality and NOTHING gets done in Washington or what does get done is minimal! You should all be ashamed of yourselves with the BS finger pointing, name calling, derogatory comments, etc.
What have any of you done to help someone down and out recently and not just judge them?

I think the 7th grade debate team would have more respect for each other!

oxxo - 4-30-2010 at 06:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by yellowtail67
What have any of you done to help someone down and out recently and not just judge them?


A lot of people on this board, on both sides of this issue, have done something recently to help someone down and out, specifically Mexicans. Although I don't agree with Capt. Mike on this issue, he flies medical suppllies into Baja, and I thank him for that.

rts551 - 4-30-2010 at 06:44 AM

LATE LAST NIGHT THE ARIZONA LEGISLATURE VOTED TO REPEAL A KEY PROVISION OF THE NEW IMMIGRATION BILL.

The provision that allowed the police to use race, ethnicity or national heritage when deciding when to question a suspect was repealed.
"The original version of the law permits police to consider any of those factors when deciding if there is reasonable suspicion".

capt. mike - 4-30-2010 at 06:49 AM

i think the only way to decide this is by a huge egg throwing battle as was done recently in the Ukraine parliment.... did you see it! and i thought the Japanese went into a congessional rage now and then....
these ruskies know how to argue man!:lol:

going to baja a week from now, looking forward to and gladly will pull out me FM-T which i will be PAYING $22 for upon check in at Guaymas....as will all 3 of my pax...ready for the back lash...:lol::lol::lol::lol:

[Edited on 4-30-2010 by capt. mike]

DENNIS - 4-30-2010 at 06:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by capt. mike
i think the only way to decide this is by a huge egg throwing battle as was done recently in the Ukraine parliment.... did you see it! and i thought the Japanese went into a congessional rage now and then....
these ruskies know how to argue man!:lol:



Yeah...that was unbelievable. All sorts of bloody noses. They even bring in umbrellas to open and use as shields from flying eggs.
The dead people in our congress don't have that kind of passion...that's for sure. But, then again, they arn't there to fight for issues. Just money and power.

Skeet/Loreto - 4-30-2010 at 07:04 AM

I am ready for any Mexican-American Citizen to be pulled over if the Officer feels they are Violating the Law.!!

I am ready for any Africa -American the Same.

I am ready for any Asian-American the Same

I am ready for any Indian American the Same

I am ready for any Texas American the Same

DENNIS - 4-30-2010 at 08:27 AM

I am ready for this thread to die.

rts551 - 4-30-2010 at 08:38 AM

another change was they can no longer stop people for reasonable suspicion.

has to be secondary to a legal stop.

Might as well end the thread. the bill has been significantly changed

DENNIS - 4-30-2010 at 09:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
another change was they can no longer stop people for reasonable suspicion.

has to be secondary to a legal stop.

Might as well end the thread. the bill has been significantly changed


I wonder what "reasonable suspicion" could possibly be? Reasonable suspicion that a person is illegal? That, to me, would definitly be racial profiling.
"Reasonable Suspicion?" What the F could that mean. I was under the impression that this whole procedure would require probable cause to detain an individual....like urinating in public or putting up Democratic Party election posters in the neighborhood.

[ OK....that was a joke. No need to pee all over yourselves going for the keyboard. ]

toneart - 4-30-2010 at 09:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
LATE LAST NIGHT THE ARIZONA LEGISLATURE VOTED TO REPEAL A KEY PROVISION OF THE NEW IMMIGRATION BILL.

The provision that allowed the police to use race, ethnicity or national heritage when deciding when to question a suspect was repealed.
"The original version of the law permits police to consider any of those factors when deciding if there is reasonable suspicion".

another change was they can no longer stop people for reasonable suspicion.

has to be secondary to a legal stop.

Might as well end the thread. the bill has been significantly changed


And there it is! And there it goes. Thank you very much! :bounce:

rts551 - 4-30-2010 at 10:24 AM

Yes. So much for all the BS about how good this bill was...the truth came out.

The Yeyhoos will have to go back to off-topic now

mtgoat666 - 4-30-2010 at 10:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by rts551
LATE LAST NIGHT THE ARIZONA LEGISLATURE VOTED TO REPEAL A KEY PROVISION OF THE NEW IMMIGRATION BILL.

The provision that allowed the police to use race, ethnicity or national heritage when deciding when to question a suspect was repealed.
"The original version of the law permits police to consider any of those factors when deciding if there is reasonable suspicion".


repealing an unconstitutional provision in the bill does not eliminate the racism and xenophobia that led to creation of the bill.

it is nice to see that protests resulted in change, even if barry and DK thought it was an unbearable week of anarchy :lol::lol:

now we will watch the democrats lead the country to real, effective immigration reform (unlike the bush effort torpedoed by republicans a few years ago).

yes we can!

hope!

lux sit!

pax!

ain't democracy grand?!

[Edited on 4-30-2010 by mtgoat666]

mtgoat666 - 4-30-2010 at 10:32 AM

oops.

too early to celebrate.

changes are minor, and not yet approved by senate or governor.

battle on!!

rts551 - 4-30-2010 at 10:37 AM

We will see. The Bill's sponsor made the changes

DENNIS - 4-30-2010 at 12:05 PM

You guys can't really believe this thing is over. Looks to me like just a little water on the fire.
People keep protesting what the government says they want to do and they'll quit telling you. :lol:

DENNIS - 4-30-2010 at 12:11 PM

¡Fuera de Aquí!
Mexico's president criticized the new Arizona immigration law for being discriminatory. How tough are Mexican immigration laws?
By Christopher Beam
Posted Thursday, April 29, 2010, at 7:18 PM ET

Rally against the new Arizona immigration lawMexican President Felipe Calderón criticized the new Arizona immigration law on Monday, saying that it "opens the door to intolerance, hate, and discrimination."* So how tough are Mexican immigration laws?
They're pretty strict, but not often enforced. Until recently, entering Mexico without proper documentation was a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison, as codified in the country's General Law of Population. (Undocumented immigrants in the United States are held in detention centers until they're deported. They don't get a jail sentence unless they've committed other crimes.) In 2008, that penalty was reduced to a fine of up to 5,000 pesos, or about $400. If you're caught with fake documents, the Ministry of the Interior can fine you twice that. In most cases, undocumented immigrants are "voluntarily repatriated," or asked to leave the country. If they're caught again, they're fined again and frequently deported. In practice, though, high levels of corruption mean that police will often take bribes from undocumented immigrants—and sometimes even rob them—instead of sending them home. (The punishments were reduced in 2008 partly because police were using the heavy penalty as leverage for extortion.)

Mexican law determines who's allowed to immigrate "according to their possibilities of contributing to national progress." That means scientists, athletes, artists, and other people with special abilities are given preference. So are investors who want to start a business in Mexico. The country makes it easy for Americans to retire there by waiving tariffs when they move their belongings. (The United States sends more immigrants to Mexico than any other country does.) It also incentivizes immigration from other Spanish- and Portuguese-speaking countries in Latin America and Europe by making those foreigners eligible for citizenship after three years instead of the usual five.*

Cypress - 4-30-2010 at 12:31 PM

The US ought to simply adopt Mexico's immigration laws and enforce them.:biggrin:

Bajahowodd - 4-30-2010 at 12:40 PM

I saw that article this morning on the MSN home page. As I read it, after sifting through the social commentary, it seems that someone caught being in Mexico illegally is fined $400 and asked to voluntarily leave. Combined with the lax enforcement, it would almost seem that Calderon sort of had the high ground on this.

Keep Stirring

MrBillM - 4-30-2010 at 01:27 PM

The LONGER the Passionate debate goes on, the BETTER.

November is the Prize.

rts551 - 4-30-2010 at 01:30 PM

and in Arizona at least they stirred up a hornets nest

By Jan

DENNIS - 4-30-2010 at 01:45 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
it seems that someone caught being in Mexico illegally is fined $400 and asked to voluntarily leave.


Yeah...well, I'm in a position to call BS on that one. :lol:

DENNIS - 4-30-2010 at 01:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
the lax enforcement


It's always been lax. I just figuered they didn't want to start any tit-for-tat nonsense with the US. God knows it's been lax up there.

Show me the luv between cops and immigrants

mtgoat666 - 4-30-2010 at 02:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Until recently, entering Mexico without proper documentation was a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison, as codified in the country's General Law of Population.
In 2008, that penalty was reduced to a fine of up to 5,000 pesos, or about $400.
The punishments were reduced in 2008 partly because police were using the heavy penalty as leverage for extortion.


You gotta love creativity of mexican cops -- they treat every criminal they meet as an opportunity to extort money!! :bounce:

How long until the crackers in AZ show such creativity too? :?:

oldlady - 4-30-2010 at 02:17 PM

Bet you'll be the first to know.

Bajahowodd - 4-30-2010 at 02:24 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Quote:
Originally posted by Bajahowodd
the lax enforcement


It's always been lax. I just figured they didn't want to start any tit-for-tat nonsense with the US. God knows it's been lax up there.


Laxity was mostly tolerated for two very different reasons. The first was that the business community benefited from low cost labor, especially in onerous jobs like meat packing. The second was that during a long run of just about as full employment as we could achieve, no one really felt that jobs were being taken by illegal foreigners. Just goes to show what 10+% unemployment can do to change a mood.

DENNIS - 4-30-2010 at 02:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by mtgoat666
Quote:
Originally posted by DENNIS
Until recently, entering Mexico without proper documentation was a felony punishable by up to 10 years in prison, as codified in the country's General Law of Population.
In 2008, that penalty was reduced to a fine of up to 5,000 pesos, or about $400.
The punishments were reduced in 2008 partly because police were using the heavy penalty as leverage for extortion.





Hey, Bro....How about a cease and decist on putting my name with quotes that arn't mine.
Thanks.

tripledigitken - 4-30-2010 at 02:43 PM

Bajahowodd,

Economics no doubt played a part of the motivation, but seriously the kidnapping and the escalation of violence NOTB in AZ played the bigger role I would wager. It's ugly over there.

Don't forget that 2 years ago the Feds were raiding meat packing plants. In San Diego County they went after Golden State Fence, a contractor doing the Border Fence contract and numerous projects on Naval Facilities as well. That one floored me. Doing work on military bases you have to provide ID's for all workers to get a pass to enter. Homeland Security goes over the records of all employees working on the Border Contracts. Gross incompetance on the part of the Government, and huge huevos on the part of the contractor.

Ken

BUT, Fugly Janet says ...............

MrBillM - 4-30-2010 at 02:52 PM

The Southern Border is now MORE secure than it's EVER been !

Nappy doesn't lie, does she ?

How could things be so bad ? Wasn't SHE in charge of Arizona ?

There must be something we're missing.

Cypress - 4-30-2010 at 03:00 PM

Adopt Mexico's immigration laws and enforce them. A simple solution to all this BS. But, if they were enforcing the law???:?:

DENNIS - 4-30-2010 at 03:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
Adopt Mexico's immigration laws and enforce them.


Which Mexico border? North or south? Has everybody heard how they treat the undocumented travelers coming to Mexico from Central America? It ain't pretty.

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/report/widespread...

[Edited on 4-30-2010 by DENNIS]

Bajahowodd - 4-30-2010 at 04:40 PM

They've got their own selfish reason. Primarily, immigrants coming from the South have little interest in staying in Mexico. Their goal is to reach El Norte. Mexico views them as unwanted competition.

Bajahowodd - 4-30-2010 at 04:42 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by tripledigitken
Bajahowodd,

Economics no doubt played a part of the motivation, but seriously the kidnapping and the escalation of violence NOTB in AZ played the bigger role I would wager. It's ugly over there.

Don't forget that 2 years ago the Feds were raiding meat packing plants. In San Diego County they went after Golden State Fence, a contractor doing the Border Fence contract and numerous projects on Naval Facilities as well. That one floored me. Doing work on military bases you have to provide ID's for all workers to get a pass to enter. Homeland Security goes over the records of all employees working on the Border Contracts. Gross incompetance on the part of the Government, and huge huevos on the part of the contractor.

Ken


Ken- Totally understand what you are saying. Phoenix, in particular has witnessed a mini Juarez. However, my comments were based more upon the national change of heart on illegals.

Desert Derangement Syndrome

mtgoat666 - 5-1-2010 at 07:03 AM

NYT
April 28, 2010, 9:00 pm
Desert Derangement Syndrome
By TIMOTHY EGAN

PHOENIX — Driving south from the high, age-worn plateau of northern Arizona, where the earth seems to have turned itself inside-out, I pulled over to take in the full sweep and wonder of this place during one of its better moments. The infinity of sky, the open gallery of sandstone masterpieces — it never fails to amaze.

Arizona is full of ancient communities — the Hopi, the Papago, the Havasupai, the Navajo — and outsized geology, with the Painted Desert, the Superstition Mountains and the big slit of the Grand Canyon.

From Show Low to Tombstone, from Snowflake to Casa Grande, from the tiny Indian village at the bottomof the canyon to the Colorado River town that reassembled the old London Bridge on its desert edge, this is the American West of singular scenery and goofy glory.

But for all its diversity of land and people, Arizona is also a lunatic magnet. As I drove, I listened to the radio blather of a state in mob-rule frenzy of cranky old men. Once in Phoenix, I saw on television that sign in a car’s rear window, the new image of Arizona to the rest of the world: “I’m Mexican. Pull me over.”

This week, Jon Stewart called Arizona the “the meth lab of democracy.” A few days ago, the governor signed the instantly infamous “show me your papers” law, allowing authorities to stop and question anyone who looks Hispanic. Another new measure lets people carry concealed weapons without a permit, following on the heels of the new-found freedom to pack heat in bars and restaurants, something that was outlawed in much of the Old West. And the state house has just approved a bill that would require candidates for high office to show a birth certificate.

The birther bill is a sop to the flat-earthers who believe — without a shred of evidence, even after all the hard work of hard-right opposition-research — that our president was not born in the U.S.A.

“It suggests that Arizona is a place where any crackpot whim can be enshrined into law.” That was the verdict from the sensibly conservative Arizona Republic, the state’s leading newspaper, which had also urged the Republican governor, Jan Brewer, to veto the immigration bill that could foster a police state. She signed it, of course.

Stewart, the Mark Twain of our day with a New Jersey quirk or two, got it right with his meth lab jab. But Arizona is more than a laboratory for intemperate times: this place is a warning of what a state can look like when it’s run by talk-radio demagogues and their television cohorts.

The crackpot laws owe their genesis to the crackpots who dominate Republican politics, who in turn cannot get elected without the backing of crackpot media.

Arizona has always had a Looney Tunes side: who can forget Governor Evan Mecham, the car dealer with the bad toupee who used a tired insult to describe black children, told a Jewish audience that the United States was a “Christian nation” and canceled the holiday for Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. He made history of a sorts: the first American governor to be removed from office by impeachment in nearly 70 years.

But Arizona has also given us smart, competent, forward-looking governors who stopped the crazies at the executive door. Now, there is not single adult with a spine — let alone a conservative in the mold of Barry Goldwater, who had a healthy distrust of handing the police too much power — left among the Republican governing majority.

Can it get any worse? Well, yes. Somewhere deep in the Sonoran Desert is the lost soul of John McCain. He’s taken back nearly everything he ever said or did that was admirable. He’s trying to get reelected to a fifth senate term by being just as grumpy, intolerant and wild-eyed as the aging white voters who make up the primary voting base for Republicans.

His Republican opponent, naturally, is a former wingnut talk radio host and ousted congressman, J.D. Hayworth. To lose to Hayworth, who was thrown out in 2006 from his safe Republican district in tony Scottsdale because of his immigrant-bashing and ties to a disgraced lobbyist, would be the lowest form of ignominy, but perhaps fitting.

Hayworth is 250 pounds of broadcast-ready bile, a windbag hall of famer. He compared gay marriage to nuptials with a horse, said the birther bill did not go far enough and wrote a book with the tells-all-you-need-to-know title of “Whatever It Takes.”

Still, a sane plurality may yet show its face. Arizona is home to more than 2 million Hispanics — about 30 percent of its population. They are much younger than the average white voter, and do not show up at the polls in great numbers. They will now. Young people, business owners and retirees who are not afraid of the demographic change washing over America — they have also been on the sideline.

While the fringe that controls state government goes after the fastest-growing ethnic group in the country with a law that makes a mockery of American values, Arizona crumbles. Its state parks are orphans, left to volunteers. Its university system is being slashed and picked to death. They even considered a plan to sell the House and Senate buildings. What business will want to relocate to such a place?

It will cost these hot-heads running the state. Probably not this year. But soon enough, because Americans have always considered the West a place that looks to tomorrow through a lens of hope, instead of hiding in the past, in fear.

Cypress - 5-1-2010 at 07:10 AM

Other than criticism, do any of our liberal posters have anything constructive to add to this topic or is it just another blame the Republicans fest?:lol:

mtgoat666 - 5-1-2010 at 07:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
Other than criticism, do any of our liberal posters have anything constructive to add to this topic...?:lol:


constructive criticism :bounce:

This Is From Another Site

Gypsy Jan - 5-1-2010 at 07:56 AM

Made by an anonymous commenter, I thought it was worth sharing.

"The Arizona law is at its core a pro-crime piece of legislation. It is a gift from the Arizona legislature to street criminals and to the drug gangs that operate along the US-Mexican border. It tells illegal immigrants that they should never call the police under any circumstances, and it tells criminals that they can act with complete impunity as long as their victims are illegal immigrants. It ensures silence and prevents cooperation with law enforcement agencies.

If the drug cartels did not lobby for this legislation, they should have. It definitely works for them."

Packoderm - 5-1-2010 at 07:56 AM

I don't believe that so many of the liberals are against curbing illegal immigration. They're just not as vocal about it as the ones who want either unlimited immigration or at least for the U.S. to coalesce with Mexico. The true liberals would see the Mexican socioeconomic system as slanted toward the haves and would want to stop the right's apparent agenda for the U.S. to adopt the same lopsided economic system dead in its tracks. You won't find real liberals chatting about on the internet. Liberals on chat sites are mainly ideological liberals. Go to the job sites and union halls and ask them about foreigners sneaking into this country. The same goes with the true conservatives - the very, very small percent of the U.S. population that actually controls the strings on us puppets. They don't want to end the supply cheap labor and the devaluation of the labor that's here. In short, this whole illegal immigration debate is a farce.

David K - 5-1-2010 at 08:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Gypsy Jan
Made by an anonymous commenter, I thought it was worth sharing.

"The Arizona law is at its core a pro-crime piece of legislation. It is a gift from the Arizona legislature to street criminals and to the drug gangs that operate along the US-Mexican border. It tells illegal immigrants that they should never call the police under any circumstances, and it tells criminals that they can act with complete impunity as long as their victims are illegal immigrants. It ensures silence and prevents cooperation with law enforcement agencies.

If the drug cartels did not lobby for this legislation, they should have. It definitely works for them."


That seems like MORE great reasons people should stop violating our border and come here the legal way! Please respect our immigration laws!

Packoderm - 5-1-2010 at 08:39 AM

There essentially is no legal way. You have to show you are highly educated and gainfully employed. That cuts out a big swath of the demographic that wants in. The only real legal way would be a temporary worker program.

Bajaboy - 5-1-2010 at 09:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Packoderm
There essentially is no legal way. You have to show you are highly educated and gainfully employed. That cuts out a big swath of the demographic that wants in. The only real legal way would be a temporary worker program.


Are you suggesting this for Mexico? I'd love to pick up a seasonal bartending job.:light:

Packoderm - 5-1-2010 at 09:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bajaboy
Quote:
Originally posted by Packoderm
There essentially is no legal way. You have to show you are highly educated and gainfully employed. That cuts out a big swath of the demographic that wants in. The only real legal way would be a temporary worker program.


Are you suggesting this for Mexico? I'd love to pick up a seasonal bartending job.:light:


If our two countries were to work out a successful worker exchange program, the workers would have to work within established job categories. For instance, a Mexican holding an alter-resistant U.S. guest-worker card would have a card indicating agriculture or food processing for a firm licensed within the program. [Same goes for U.S. workers working in Mexico.] Sadly for you, this would likely not permit freelance jobs such as bar tending.

[Edited on 5/1/2010 by Packoderm]

Be OUR Guest

MrBillM - 5-1-2010 at 09:53 AM

A Guest-Worker program has ALWAYS been the proper way to deal with the "supposed" need for immigrant labor.

The Liberals, bowing to their Union constituency, have always been the opposition.

Packoderm - 5-1-2010 at 10:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
A Guest-Worker program has ALWAYS been the proper way to deal with the "supposed" need for immigrant labor.

The Liberals, bowing to their Union constituency, have always been the opposition.


That certainly would be the case. They could possibly change their tune if the program could assure that guest workers would be working only in determined capacities such as agriculture harvesting and other seasonal jobs. The problem (not a problem for employers) comes when immigrants come in and take over job sites and entire vocations. We don't need guest workers working in fast food. The fast food industry can pay market wages just like In & Out Burgers does.

David K - 5-1-2010 at 10:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Packoderm
Quote:
Originally posted by MrBillM
A Guest-Worker program has ALWAYS been the proper way to deal with the "supposed" need for immigrant labor.

The Liberals, bowing to their Union constituency, have always been the opposition.


That certainly would be the case. They could possibly change their tune if the program could assure that guest workers would be working only in determined capacities such as agriculture harvesting and other seasonal jobs. The problem (not a problem for employers) comes when immigrants come in and take over job sites and entire vocations. We don't need guest workers working in fast food. The fast food industry can pay market wages just like In & Out Burgers does.


Hey Packo, can you make it to join us at Mision Santa Maria? We haven't seen you since Camp Gecko New Years 2005! (That was Baja Angel's first trip with me to Baja)...

(Hope it is okay to hijack this thread and talk about a Baja trip! LOL)
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