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Ken Bondy - 6-11-2012 at 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
Today, I believe in God with all my heart and soul. After what Cristina and I went through last year, that belief today is only stronger.

Hi Ron

Thank you for your intelligent, thoughtful post. You raise an issue that has confounded me for years, and perhaps you can shed some light on it.

In the aftermath of horrible experiences like you and Cristina went through last year, and after virtually every natural disaster (flood, fire, tornado, hurricane, earthquake, etc.), someone always seems to state, as you did, with all sincerity and gratitude, the fact that he/she was spared has somehow strengthened their belief in god (“…god was looking out for me…there is a god”, something like that). That is stated in spite of the fact that god in its mercy allowed the horrible event to happen in the first place, suggesting that god, if it exists, is either impotent or evil, rather than loving and caring. If god allows a horrible thing to occur in the first place, why would he/she/it give a damn who survived and who didn’t? Perhaps you could shed some light on this, since you went through it. It seems to me that when a terrible thing happens to a person, and they survive, logically it should cause one to doubt the existence of some loving and caring god, rather than strengthen the belief.

Please know, Ron, that I am not arguing with you or criticizing you in any way. You are one of my Nomad friends and I have great respect for you and what you have done for others in need. But I need to know this.

Ken Bondy - 6-11-2012 at 11:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by paranewbi
Hmmmm....Pol Pot, Stalin, Maio, Hitler (really does anybody on this board think we fought someone other than evil?...not Christian).

Another falacious argument of religions horrible suffering cast on mankind that I need to counter. The above men caused or directly influenced the demise of 10's of millions (some say 60 million collectively) with their 'contemporary tools' in a short span of 60 some years.

It would all just be blissfull on earth if we just stopped believing in any thing other than man.
Better yet, without evil men, maybe there would be no God!
But than who amongst us has not shamed themselves in their actions or their thoughts...oops we are them.

Huh???

Iflyfish - 6-11-2012 at 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SFandH
Iflyfish, or anybody else,

Is the belief in the supernatural a key ingredient of 12 step programs used to overcome addictions? If so, how does it help?

[Edited on 6-11-2012 by SFandH]

Quote:

The belief in a "higher power" is indeed a tenant of 12 step programs and has been very useful to many people. How one defines that "higher power" is up to each individual. One's "higher power" could include what we call one's "inner voice" or conscience. That is my understanding of it, though I claim no particular expertise in this area as I am not "in recovery". I have however spent many hours with people in 12 step programs discussing this issue.

In my view it is harmful to take away something of value with out replacing it with something of greater value. In this case replacing the narcissistic, self absorption and delusional thinking of addiction with some higher order thinking/feeling/experiences.

It is in my view noteworthy that psychotropic drugs have been used successfully in the treatment of alcoholism as those drugs can provide access to "spiritual" experiences that change ones frame of reference and provide a genuine experience of transcendent that the central nervous system depressant, alcohol, cannot provide.

There is renewed interest in the use of psychedelic drugs in the treatment of alcoholism after decades of neglect due to societal factors. You will find some fascinating and I believe relevant information regarding the field of religious experience "higher power", in the professional literature on Alcoholism and its treatment with Psychedelic drugs.

For a starter:

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/02791072.1998.103...

We should never underestimate the power of these "transcendent" experiences in changing people's lives. We see here a post from our amigo who recently went thru a near death experience and has been kind and brave enough to share that experience with us. We are all very grateful that he and his wife both survived their horrible experience and I am grateful that something good came out of this for them.

Iflyfish

Ken Bondy - 6-11-2012 at 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish

Quote:

Originally posted by paranewbi
Hmmmm....Pol Pot, Stalin, Maio, Hitler (really does anybody on this board think we fought someone other than evil?...not Christian).

Great list of idealistic "true believers" who wished to impose their "true beliefs" on the rest of the world. I would just add them to the list of Christian, Muslim, Jewish, ....fill in the blank..... "true believers" who have committed the same atrocities. Their religion was Communism, Fascism, and in other cases religious backed Colonialism.

Iflyfish

And in Hitler's case, christianity, as he confirmed so often in his speeches and writing.

SFandH - 6-11-2012 at 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
I accept the big bang theory as to the origins of this universe in which we exist but that does not explain away the creation of the highly dense mass of energy that existed just moments before the big bang event. Where did that come from? It is impossible for me to believe or accept that anything else than intelligent design was at work at that singularity.

Now you have me interested because that's where I'm at. I'm hoping Astrobaja chimes in with his cosmological thoughts.

I disagree with your last sentence. Aren't you saying that because of the existence of some thing or observation that hasn't been explained yet, there must exist an entity that transcends the physical universe?

[Edited on 6-11-2012 by SFandH]

vgabndo - 6-11-2012 at 11:32 AM

My understanding is that far more people dispose of their addictive behavior without a 12 step program than those who do. Clearly, all the activity is taking place in the brain of the addicted individual. A "belief" that there is someone to blame, or someone to automatically forgive transgressions may make the process easier for some, but in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, nothing external/supernatural is happening to the addicted person.

Barry: Your question is getting a lot more play, from my perspective, lately. In studying the connotation of the word "atheist", it is clear that religion likes to put an evil spin on the word. In reality, as I've said before, it is like calling oneself a "afairy" if they don't happen to believe in fairies.

Secular humanists recognize that the absence of a belief in the supernatural is no substitute for an understanding of morality, ethics, and a cooperative understanding of the means for peaceful social interaction.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php?section=main&pa...

I think the fact that the US of A, One nation under God, has seven times more of their people (per capita) locked up in civil prisons than does communist China is clear indication of the failure of the national religion to provide a working moral code.
"The devil made me do it, and Jesus died for my sins", simply scapegoat accountability and provide no moral framework. The ridiculous madness of biblical rules about who has to kill whom for what do not even relate to the 21st. century and must be eliminated from our culture if we are to survive.

I found one of the most important explanations of the bible as the word of God "word for word" in a place that helps explain why so many rational people find this mythology pernicious.

The is from the Field Manual for the Free Militia, the instruction book for forming your own right wing Christian dominionist paramilitary army.

Quote:
To answer this question we will briefly look at what the Bible says about its own inspiration, inerrancy, sufficiency, and authority.

First, look at 2 Timothy 3:16-17: "All Scripture is God- breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." Here the apostle Paul is teaching us that the Bible (or Scriptures) are inspired by God or God-breathed. Take careful note of two things that Paul says are God-breathed or inspired. He says that "all Scripture is God-breathed." Notice here that it is the actual Scriptures themselves, the words of the Bible, that are inspired (God-breathed) and not simply the authors. God gave us the precise wording of the Bible in its original Hebrew and Greek, not just the main ideas. Paul also says that "all Scripture is God-breathed." It is not just portions of the Bible that are inspired but all of it. We therefore say that the Bible is the word of God! This testimony that the Bible is the word of God runs throughout the whole Bible. (See, for example, Exodus 34:27, 2 Samuel 23:2, Jeremiah 26:2, John 12:49, John 17:8, 1 Corinthians 14:37, and Revelation 2:18.)

Now to say that the entire Bible is equally inspired word-for- word does not necessarily mean that it is all of equal value or interest to us. It simply means that word-for-word it all came from God.

The Bible is word-for-word the word of God. Therefore it is completely true or without any errors. This is what we mean by "inerrancy." Think about it. If God knows everything (1 John 3:20) and cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18), and if the Bible's words are God's words, then there cannot be any mistakes in the Bible. Otherwise, God would either have to be wrong himself or lying to us.

While this line of reasoning is undeniable, the Bible does not leave us to make our own conclusions about its truthfulness. The concept of infallibility or inerrancy is clearly the Bible's own teaching about itself. Jesus said, "Not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of the pen, will by any means disappear from the Law" (Matthew 5:18). In other words, the Bible must be fulfilled in the smallest detail. He also taught that "the Scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35) and praying to the Father stated, "Your word is truth" (John 17:17). God's word can only be truth if it is free from errors. Remember in school when true or false questions on tests were false if any part of them were wrong? Luke wrote his gospel "so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught" (Luke 1:4). Peter wrote, "We have the word of the prophets made more certain" (2 Peter 1:19). More certain than what? Read 2 Peter 1:16-18. Peters says that the word of the prophets is more certain than his own eyewitness experience of Jesus Christ.

Now the fact that the Bible doesn't have any mistakes is not simply "academic" truth. It is of immense practical importance. Only if it is all true can we know for sure that any particular part of it is true. Do you want to do right by obeying a command in the Bible only to find out later that you were wrong to do what you did? Of course not. We need a Bible that is true throughout to have any real hope of pleasing God.

There is still more you need to know about the Bible. Not only is it God's word, not only is it true, but it contains everything you need to know about God and your relationship with him. The fact that it is everything we need to know is summed up by the word "sufficient" and is clearly taught by Paul the apostle in 2 Timothy 3:15-17. It tells us everything we need to know for salvation (2 Timothy 3:15), truth (2 Timothy 3:16), and good works (2 Timothy 3:17). This is why the Bible tells us over and over again never to add to it or to take away from it (Deuteronomy 4:2, Proverbs 30:6, Revelation 22:18).

Now when we say that the Bible tells us everything we need to know, we need to realize that some things are stated directly and some indirectly. A good algebra textbook, for instance, may not give answers to every algebra problem. Yet is does fully define the rules and principles by which every algebra problem may be solved. The Bible likewise contains all that we need for our relationship with God even if it does not provide direct answers for every problem or question we face. On such indirect issues we must draw valid conclusions based on what Scripture does say.

This leads us to the final point which needs to be made about the Bible: the Bible alone is authoritative meaning that it, and only it, must be completely believed and obeyed. Since all of the Bible is God's word we cannot pick and choose what we want to obey. Since it is all true we cannot neglect a portion of it by raising doubts about its reliability. Since it contains all we need for our Christian walks we cannot appeal to something or someone besides the Bible as our final authority on some issue.
endquote###

This is part of the manifesto of the criminal gang that is operating openly in my neighborhood, and has the full support of my local Sheriff!

wessongroup - 6-11-2012 at 11:32 AM

A limited look at religion ... and the space time continuum .. :biggrin:

BajaGringo - 6-11-2012 at 11:35 AM

Ken - that is a good, valid question. Countless atrocities have occurred throughout time; perpetrated both on and by people of faith. Religion has a very bad record in that regard and was part of the reason why I questioned my own belief in religion/God early on in my life.

I don't fault God for what happened last year; I fault the three idiots who did this to us. Personally, I don't believe that all that happens here on earth is at God's direction or command. I think He set the system up to run pretty much on autopilot. I suppose that it was they call free will. There are times perhaps when God may intervene but it is something I can neither explain or even begin to speculate on. It is beyond my pay grade and life experience so far.

I can say that I know that a higher power intervened on my behalf last year and to be true to myself is to acknowledge that. To go into further details is highly personal and simply not appropriate in a public, open forum IMHO. It is something I haven't even shared with many, even in my own family. If we should ever have the pleasure to meet in person Ken and would like to know, I will share with you then.

As a man of science I not only understand but welcome your questions Ken (and others). I question many things in life and that includes my faith. I believe in a God that I cannot physically see or touch, much like I believe in the love Cristina expresses for me and I feel for her. Our love is something we cannot physically see or touch and it is often even hard to describe. But the fact that I cannot feel or touch or even prove to anyone else my love for Cristina, I know it is there, deep in my heart. Such is my faith in God...

SFandH - 6-11-2012 at 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
A "belief" that there is someone to blame, or someone to automatically forgive transgressions may make the process easier for some, but in the absence of any evidence to the contrary, nothing external/supernatural is happening to the addicted person.

Ok thanks for explaining the role it plays in 12 step programs. I never understood its usefullness.

GOD=DOG

captkw - 6-11-2012 at 11:45 AM

:cool:

BajaGringo - 6-11-2012 at 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
In fact I challenge any of those here who claim to be religious to find the word religion in the Bible. It doesn't exist. Religion was of mans creation, not God's. And man has managed to screw that up quite well on his own throughout time. To find fault with religion and equate that with finding fault with God however, is a mistake IMHO.

Ron it's in Acts (Apostles) 25:19 and 26:5 and in James 1:26 and 1:27.

Really? The word "religion" didn't show up in my old Bible as I recall. Maybe it was another version that used a different term like faith or creed? The point I was trying make was that I don't believe that religion was an invention of God but of man. More specifically an invention of man used to manipulate other men via their faith...

windgrrl - 6-11-2012 at 11:50 AM

The 12-steps program identify surrendering to a greater power than oneself as the first step to acknowledging the need for help outside oneself - in this case God.

For the secular - it's having the "insight" that the problem is bigger than the individual. Having the awareness that one has a problem is key to making choices and often people facing big challenges need lots of outside help. A modern view is the "transtheoretical model of change":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transtheoretical_model
...a nice umbrella for all to fit under.

Iflyfish - 6-11-2012 at 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
Today, I believe in God with all my heart and soul. After what Cristina and I went through last year, that belief today is only stronger.

I have been of necessity had to deal with this issue in my practice as I have worked with many people who have had the sort of experience Ron has so generously shared with us. I have both read and heard many accounts of near and death experiences. Many are profoundly changed by these experiences. These experiences are common, though not universal. By using the term common I don't mean in any way to discount their significance.

In another post on "higher power and AA" I cite the literature on Psychedelic transcendent experiences in the treatment of addiction. I think you will find that literature fascinating when considering this issue.

What Ron is describing is an EXPERIENCE, not an intellectual awareness, though intellectual integration is necessary following an experience like this. These experiences are often integrated and discussed in "spiritual" contexts, we simply have no other context in which to do so. Our language and "normal" experience does not for most include experiences like this.

It is interesting to note that Timothy Leary and Richard Alpert, both PhD Psychologists at Harvard, working on the MMPI, the most reliable and most used Psychological test we have, took LSD and it changed their lives. I think it is interesting to note HOW it changed their lives.

Leary was a good Catholic boy who did it all right, in a very tightly bound Irish Catholic way, took LSD and went counter script "Tune in, Turn on and Drop out". He then lived the rest of his life in essentially a rebellion against his rather rigid, controlled, contrived upbringing.

Now Alpert on the other hand said to himself after taking LDS...hmmm... these are experiences that we have no context to integrate (he could have talked to a Native American shaman and got some insight) so I'll go to India where I know they have had thousands of years of experience with these matters. He went to ashram after ashram before spending a lengthy stay with a guru. He decided after this experience to come back to America and work with dying people, as they had in his view the most immediate possibility of full aliveness as they faced their death. He was instrumental in the development of the hospice movement.

Some religious scholars have concluded that Jesus took psychedelic mushrooms with hermit monks during his sojourn into the desert. This bastard son, the son of Mary, a most lowly and despised status in his time, returned from his enlightenment to proclaim "there is a father in heaven and he loves you". Again one sees the interplay between personal psychology and religious experience.

The Buddha was a Prince, son of a very rich and powerful ruler. He secrets himself out of his fathers castle, with its fine food, harem etc. and discovers that there is poverty and suffering in the world. He sets out to right this, no doubt feeling a powerful sense of guilt over the matter. He meditates and after his enlightenment proclaims the following "noble truths" which I paraphrase "There is suffering in the world" and "One can overcome suffering thru meditation". Again one sees the interplay between personal psychology and religious experience.

So on the level of personal "religious" experience there is in my view no way of separating them from our own personal psychology. In saying this I am in no way discounting the experiences nor the conclusions that people derive from these experiences, I am only pointing out that these experiences exist in a context that is part of how they are integrated. The bone in our own nose is the hardest to see as my Anthropologist brother is want to say.

Iflyfish

Ken Bondy - 6-11-2012 at 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Ron it's in Acts (Apostles) 25:19 and 26:5 and in James 1:26 and 1:27.

It's probably just different versions of this inerrant bible

I have four bibles, three online (searchable) and one hard copy (TNAB) and the word "religion" shows up in those four places in each. This is no big deal, and just further points out that nobody really knows what's in the bible because there are so many different versions. Depends on which one you pick. Pretty careless for something inspired or written by the creator of the universe

SFandH - 6-11-2012 at 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish

Quote:

Thanks. Wndgrl too. Just looking for the positive side. The negative side is well known.

[Edited on 6-11-2012 by SFandH]

SFandH - 6-11-2012 at 12:24 PM

The link below is to videos of who some people say is one of today's most influential atheists, Christopher Hitchens. He died recently of cancer. Fascinating guy. Well thought out opinions on many topics.

Enjoy!

Christopher Hitchens (Hitch)

[Edited on 6-11-2012 by SFandH]

Ken Bondy - 6-11-2012 at 12:53 PM

To Ron Hoff:

Ron I need to apologize to you. After I posted that message about the word "religion" in the bible I realized it might be taken as confrontational, and that wasn't my intent. I didn't want to put you on the defensive. But unfortunately before I deleted it you saw it. I apologize and I feel bad about it. Your point (religion was invented by man) was well made regardless of whether or not the word "religion" appears in the bible. Anyway I apologize, I wish you had never seen that post.

Sheesh, I need a vacation after this thread.......

++Ken+

Ken Bondy - 6-11-2012 at 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SFandH
The link below is to videos of who some people say is one of today's most influential atheists, Christopher Hitchens. He died recently of cancer. Fascinating guy. Well thought out opinions on many topics.

Enjoy!

Christopher Hitchens (Hitch)

Good One

[Edited on 6-11-2012 by SFandH]

There are four prominent contemporary atheist authors, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and Daniel Dennett. Well, three now that Hitch is gone but his writings will live on. Hitch's book "god is Not Great - How Religion Poisons Everything" is brilliant but very confrontational. He has little patience for believers.

Dawkins is an eloquent evolutionary biologist who can really explain natural selection. Along with his books on evolution his "best-seller" is "The god Delusion". I don't know much about Dennett although I have heard him speak. He is very erudite and philosophical.

My personal favorite is Sam Harris. His first two books are classic - "The End of Faith" and "Letter to a christian Nation". Sam goes right to the jugular in pointing out the dangers and follies of religion, but he is less insulting and confrontational than Hitch (except when he receives death threats from his christian readers, and he has received thousands).

Harris's books are definitely worth a read for those who want to understand the contemporary non-believer's positions.

J.P. - 6-11-2012 at 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SFandH

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish

Quote:

Thanks. Wndgrl too. Just looking for the positive side. The negative side is well known.

[Edited on 6-11-2012 by SFandH]

When I first entered the Program down in Texas 28 years ago they told me there was but TWO THINGS I needed to know about GOD is THERE IS ONE and the second was IT AIN'T YOU. Works for me :yes:

vgabndo - 6-11-2012 at 01:26 PM

Hmmmm....Pol Pot, Stalin, Maio, Hitler (really does anybody on this board think we fought someone other than evil?...not Christian).

Newbi, I can understand your confusion, but repeating the same lies will not make them true. Including A. Hitler with the list above is disingenuous.

Here are some things I've found and have not found anything to disprove them yet. In the 1930s the religious demographic of Germany was about 94% Christian, this sect being divided about 60/40 between the Lutheran and Catholic cults, with the Lutherans predominating.

In 1934 Germany got a new constitution, and new pledges of allegiance to the Reich, and their new elected leader. The pledge for government officials began with "By God..." and the one for civilians ended with "...so help me God." As noted earlier all of those German soldiers with "God is with me" on their belt buckles managed to directly kill, or just starve to death, 20 million Russians before they were finally repulsed. Are you suggesting, Newbi, that all that damage was done by the less than 10% of Germany that was NOT Christian? That won't fly, you must know, because the casualties among the N-zi invaders far exceeded the numbers of non-Christians known to be living in Germany before they decided to take over the world...by God. For millions of N-zi troops, Christianity was their moral code.

I believe history shows that the fact that the USSR didn't have Christianity as a state religion was part of the reason for the German invasion. (The strike may be called pre-emptive; justification recently used by the Christian G W Bush.) That Christians would stave to death millions of women, children, and old men over a period of years should not be any surprise.

Mine was an evil laugh when I read something earlier on this thread about the Judeo-Christian ethic. There would almost certainly be no such thing today if the Russians hadn't kicked Hitler's butt. Christian Germany could have completed the "final solution" and there would be no judeos to have an ethic. Sectarian warfare is historically a major part of Christian behavior.

Look at the cost in Christian lives when some of them decided to mess up corporate America's labor relations by freeing their slaves. Brother butchered brother in the name of the God-given right to buy and sell other human beings and/or their children for about 4 years. Charles Darwin was partly to blame for that, his recently published findings had just begun to change the world forever.

150 years of EXCELLENT science has followed and Darwin and Wallace are still revered for their revelations. From the mouth of the Christian God we have heard nothing. I hear that it speaks to people's hearts? In the immortal words of The Church Lady, "Isn't THAT convenient?"

If you are trying to hide something.

Cypress - 6-11-2012 at 01:27 PM

Jeez! Got some real heavy thoughts being tossed back and forth here. I'm soaking it up! Learning! That's what life is all about.

Thanking all you Nomads, pro and con.

DENNIS - 6-11-2012 at 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Sheesh, I need a vacation after this thread.......

++Ken+

True believers call it a "Retreat." Here's one at Thomas Merton's old digs:

http://www.monks.org/retreats.html

Ken Bondy - 6-11-2012 at 01:42 PM

vgabndo would you adopt me?

DENNIS I was gonna say "retreat" but I reconsidered

Shoulda followed my first instinct.

Bajafun777 - 6-11-2012 at 01:46 PM

I have read this thread off and on but would still say I pray for all non-believers, while at the same time praying for a better world. I know for a fact how much good Christians are doing every day throughout the world. I know for a fact just in our small town how many of our local churches have food kitchens to help others without enough to eat. I know of these same churches taking families to shelters and even paying for hotels until housing could be found for them. I know for a fact how Christians have given money to help the less fortunate or others Christians in financial problems. So, I know from personal experiences and also being involved with my church how much Christians are doing everyday for others.

I will not spend time trying to defend what soldiers did for kings, queens, or other dictators in the name of God, especially when it had nothing to do with God. We Christians will continue to help others by being missionaries or supporting missionaries, going to countries such as Haiti to work hard in building houses, safe water, etc. which many of our Christian brothers and sisters from just our little town have been doing faithfully for several years now. I like being around people that care and do for the betterment of our communities and our world. I have found most Nomads also like to help out others and have seen it on this site over and over again. I hope that giving will always be part of the Nomad experience.

So, I like being around other nomads even though I might not agree with their belief's but that is fine as long as they don't start getting aggressive with me over it. We have all had good and bad experiences in our lives as BajaGringo gave in his writing about how he came home to Jesus which is good to hear. I feel for those who have had bad experiences to where they have taken anger or maybe even hate towards the christian religion. I hope all nomads and everyone else has a good life and have good times especially here in Baja and if they find the "Love Of JESUS" even better in my hopes.

Now, Ken I have enjoyed your photos over the years and your writings of things you have experienced in Baja but your views on God I will just have to agree to disagree with you. By the way I always like meeting Nomads, as in the past at book signing events at the Pyramids with Keri as host or in my travels of Baja. Loved the turnout for the Nomad who traveled on foot from Tecate to Cabo, which was held at a hotel on hotel circle in San Diego. Have shared a few "cold ones" with a number of Nomads and hope to do the same in the future. Take Care & Travel Safe--- "NO Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777

vgabndo - 6-11-2012 at 01:52 PM

Ken, what you have shared here is unusually authentic among men I know. Naturally, the fact that we share the four, now three, horsemen as heroes does nothing to diminish you in my eyes!

Since I killed the cable TV 18 months ago I've been gratified to find so many great video presentations and TED talks on line by the men you mention. This is continuing education in my easy chair at the screen!

The thing I find most revealing about them and how they help me understand the debate that is going on here, is that I "believe" that none of them would ever ask anyone to believe anything. If they don't have the data to draw a scientific conclusion, there will be no statement of fact. Further, I judge that they would consider that any "fact" is open to constant re-evaluation in the light of new data.

This is where dogma fails the masses. By denying the sheep the right to investigate the limits of the paddock, by failing to encourage the sheep to question the failures of their culture and mythology, the good shepherds have shortchanged a lot of good people.

Dennett has helped me understand the conflict many have between their intellect and the mind warping they received in their youth.

Thanks for your contribution. You too Rick.

idon'tflyfishbutIliketogotothehatcheryandfeedthem.

paranewbi - 6-11-2012 at 01:57 PM

Vgabndo;

Not that I have researched Hitler's 'Christian' beliefs but to maybe start with a cursory websearch: this is interesting read.

A Staff Report from the Straight Dope Science Advisory Board

Was Hitler a Christian?

October 30, 1999
I could probably find more speeches in which Hitler claims himself to be a Christian, but I think the point has been made. He said it. Now, what did it mean?

It seems Hitler, like many modern-day politicians, spoke out of both sides of his mouth. And when he didn't, his lackeys did. It may have been political pandering, just like many of our current politicians who invoke God's name to gain support.

Also, it seems probable that Hitler, being the great manipulator, knew that he couldn't fight the Christian churches and their members right off the bat. So he made statements to put the church at ease and may have patronized religion as a way to prevent having to fight the Christian-based church.

In fact, Anton Gil notes in his book, An Honourable Defeat: A History of German Resistance to Hitler, 1933-1945: "For his part, Hitler naturally wanted to bring the church into line with everything else in his scheme of things. He knew he dare not simply eradicate it: that would not have been possible with such an international organisation, and he would have lost many Christian supporters had he tried to. His principal aim was to unify the German Evangelical Church under a pro-N-zi banner, and to come to an accommodation with the Catholics."

In other words, while he was certainly evil, he also usually knew which wars he could win (at least until 1941) and only fought those. He knew he could beat the Polish, French, and British armies and he allegedly counseled the Japanese against attacking the U.S.; he also requested that they open up a front against Russia. He couldn't beat the church in open warfare--so he took control and then attacked them piecemeal while making statements to put them at ease. Think about it--how many other times did Hitler break his word or ignore a treaty? He said whatever would make things easiest, and then ignored it later.

Author Doug Krueger notes that "so many Germans were religious believers that Hitler, if not religious himself, at least had to pretend to be a believer in order to gain support." He adds, "If the [Christian] message won converts, it would seem that most N-zis were probably [Christians] too. After all, would appeal to divine mandate win more theists or atheists to the cause?" He also points out that "Even if Hitler was not a [Christian], he could still have been a theist. Or a deist" (www.infidels.org/library /modern/doug_krueger/copin.html). Remember that being a non-Christian is not equal to being an atheist.

When all is said and done, Krueger says that anecdotal evidence from those close to him near the end of his life suggests that he was a at least a deist, if not a theist. Krueger concludes: "So here's what evidence we have. There is a certain worldview, N-zism. Its leader, Hitler, professes on many occasions to be religious, and he often states that he's doing the will of god. The majority of his followers are openly religious. There is no evidence anywhere that this leader ever professed to anyone that he is an atheist. He and his followers actively campaign against atheism, even to the point of physical force, and this leader allies himself with religious organizations and churches. This is the evidence. So where does atheism fit in?" As Krueger notes, there seems to be no real evidence that Hitler was an atheist. On the other hand, since one could never be sure when he was speaking his real thoughts and when he was simply riling up the masses, it's difficult to say for certain.

Continueing...
As for your chat-room experiences, well, my friend and source David Gehrig noted that Hitler still sets the gold standard for "easiest rhetorical cheap shot." He related a comment from Usenet that there is an empirical law: As a Usenet discussion gets longer, the probability that someone in it will compare someone else in it to Hitler asymptotically approaches 1. In other words, atheists looking for a quick cheap-shot may claim Hitler was a Christian; similarly, Christians looking for a quick shot may claim he was an atheist. Know what? Hitler was a vegetarian! Oooh, those evil vegetarians! He also recommended that parents give their children milk to drink instead of beer and started the first anti-smoking campaign. (So by the "reasoning" used in these types of arguments, if you are truly anti-Hitler, you should smoke heavily and only give your baby beer!) Better watch out, though he was an oxygen-breather, too! In other words, does it really matter whether Hitler was an atheist or a Christian or whatever? Just because somebody may hold a particular worldview (along with other views) doesn't make him a spokesman for that view, or even remotely representative of others who hold that view. No matter how his madness is painted, he was still evil incarnate.

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1699/was-hitler-a-c...

As for Science ...recent material suggests there is a growing shift to the position that another Nomad has stated on this thread...the realization that a Creator must be in the play.

SFandH - 6-11-2012 at 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajafun777
I know for a fact how much good Christians are doing every day throughout the world. I know for a fact just in our small town how many of our local churches have food kitchens to help others without enough to eat. I know of these same churches taking families to shelters and even paying for hotels until housing could be found for them. I know for a fact how Christians have given money to help the less fortunate or others Christians in financial problems. So, I know from personal experiences and also being involved with my church how much Christians are doing everyday for others.

It's about time somebody spoke up for the charitable aspects of Christians. I'll remind folks that the same goes for all religions. The sense of community and the responsibilities of being an upstanding member of any community are huge positive aspects that the atheists don't talk about, and I think are really the main objectives, or certainly should be, of the common religious people worldwide.

Of course you don't need all the supernatural stuff to accomplish these objectives.

[Edited on 6-11-2012 by SFandH]

Cypress - 6-11-2012 at 02:12 PM

Hitler? He had a big problem with Jews, other than that, he was a gifted speaker. And his military wisdom contributed to the downfall of the third reich.

Ken Bondy - 6-11-2012 at 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by vgabndo
Ken, what you have shared here is unusually authentic among men I know. Naturally, the fact that we share the four, now three, horsemen as heroes does nothing to diminish you in my eyes!

Since I killed the cable TV 18 months ago I've been gratified to find so many great video presentations and TED talks on line by the men you mention. This is continuing education in my easy chair at the screen!

The thing I find most revealing about them and how they help me understand the debate that is going on here, is that I "believe" that none of them would ever ask anyone to believe anything. If they don't have the data to draw a scientific conclusion, there will be no statement of fact. Further, I judge that they would consider that any "fact" is open to constant re-evaluation in the light of new data.

This is where dogma fails the masses. By denying the sheep the right to investigate the limits of the paddock, by failing to encourage the sheep to question the failures of their culture and mythology, the good shepherds have shortchanged a lot of good people.

Dennett has helped me understand the conflict many have between their intellect and the mind warping they received in their youth.

Thanks for your contribution. You too Rick.

idon'tflyfishbutIliketogotothehatcheryandfeedthem.

Thanks vgabndo, I am flattered. Neil deGrasse Tyson is quickly becoming another hero of mine in the field of rational thinking. He is fabulous.

You didn't answer my question about adopting me.

++Ken++

Ken Bondy - 6-11-2012 at 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SFandH

Quote:

Noone can deny that religious people do good things. But in my opinion they do them in spite of religion, not because of it.

"With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

Steven Weinberg, quoted in The New York Times, April 20, 1999

Cypress - 6-11-2012 at 02:28 PM

Religion is big $$$. Many contribute and a few get rich. Sorta like the lottery!

Not gonna mention any names, might get involved in a law suit, but there are a lot of people who have grown rich playing the "Jesus Saves Game". :biggrin:

Skipjack Joe - 6-11-2012 at 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

The major turning point in my path towards atheism, however, came when I actually sat down and read the bible, cover to cover, discovering that it was a vicious, evil and repulsive book, full of genocide and slaughter, telling me that I should keep slaves, kill anyone who works on weekends, kill anyone who believes in some other imaginary god, and that virgin women who are raped must marry their rapist (I’m not kidding, it’s in Deuteronomy 22:28-29). I was astonished to read that the creator of the universe got peeed at humanity (which he/she allegedly created in the first place), and killed everyone (except one breeding pair from each species) in a great flood, including innocent children. Religious people thought all that really happened, and that somehow it was aall good thing. I started to wonder if all the people who had been telling me how great the bible was had ever actually read it.

But, Ken, no christian believes in any of this these days. Are you saying that the only true christians are the ones who accept literally everything that's written in that book? I'm not sure there is value in disclaiming a religion that few religious people believe in.

There was a fair amount of writing about the authorship of the bible. Above you talked about the great flood. Most people, however, are struck by the absurdity of the story. That is the idea of fitting the gazillion species into that ark. The story reminds many of us of stories of primitive people for their own origins, e.g. the world sits on the back of 4 sea turtles. And then there is genesis itself. So people of faith pick and choose sections of the bible they find most inspiring. Even the churches do that. They do this because of inconsistencies and falsehoods in the bible. Yet you feel uncomfortable with that. You refer to it as cherry picking I believe.

The biggest inconsistency seems to be between the old and new testament.

An eye for an eye vs turn the other cheek.

There is clearly a different direction that christianity has turned. It seems to me that after Christ appeared historically the teaching of humility and meekness have replaced that of retribution in almost all of Christendom. The only people who still defend their vengeful actions are the Jewish people, who never accepted Christ as deity anyway. I bring this up because you felt it was unreasonable that Christians don't acknowledge the old testament sometimes. They really can't and the church since Christ has gone in a different direction.

Regarding truth and spirituality. I have to say that I've felt uncomfortable with the approaches and notions that psychologists use to get at truth. It's all seems so soft and unstable. Conclusions based upon how a people felt after an experience. Higher power. Spirituality. Awareness without seeing. All of these concepts that best describe religious experience.

Through your writing,Ken, it seems to me that you too feel uncomfortable in this type of world. Your approach to the bible is totally rational. You dispute it in a very logical manner and nobody can really refute your objections.

I do, however, believe that generally speaking these 'spiritual' people, those that take liberties with reality seem to be a happier group of people. You can often identify them on nomads by their writing style. A sort of loosey-goosey description of everything they experience. Interestingly enough, with the exception of Baja Gringo they have not participated on this thread.

So, Ken, the bottom line is that it's not religion that is the problem, it's rationality.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

You go for a walk as I did this morning and come across an iris which delights you. You then note all of it's colors. You count it's petals and write down. You measure it's height and size of all components. You take it to the lab and break it down to it's organic compounds and write down. You place it into a bomb calorimeter and measure it's caloric content. Now you've got all the information that you could possibly get from this flower. Has your experience become any richer as a result? Was your experience richer before you learned all of this?

To me, the above is somehow related to how a spiritual person experiences life vs the rest of us.

Bajafun777 - 6-11-2012 at 02:52 PM

Ken correction to Weinberg opinion of his writings, It should be "for good people to do evil things, that takes corruption and bad people!" Religion has nothing to do with it just another mis-interperated opinion from someone throwing rocks at those who are serving God.

Cypress, I do not know a lot of people growing rich off the "Jesus Saves Game" but I do know people that have tried this,however in time they lost everything! Church is not to get rich but to enlighten yourself to live a better fullfulling life with JESUS's teachings. When one tides or gives to the church they do so for the upkeep of the church and to help projects or missionaries in designated giving funds. Some churches have several designated funds that helps in paying the bills for water, electricity, gas, insurance, salaries of those working at the church besides outreaching in the community or other designated places. Most churches have elected members that meet monthly to keep up on these monies and how they are being spent.

Most of the big churches on T.V. or Radio have some people that have gotten rich but usually through their books, c.d.s, or paid television spots. So, some can get rich but they will be having to push their wares just like businesses do with some C.E.O.s making millions. This is not something that is true of most churches, as most are just paying the bills and have to ask for "Love Offerings" for those special needs such as new air conditioner, roof, etc. In our small church most of the members are willing give to help with such request,s as they see the immediate need which benefits all in the church. Those that can give a little more do as in our church we have people from all walks of life but all try to give something. Take Care & Travel Safe----------"No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777

BajaGringo - 6-11-2012 at 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Ron I need to apologize to you. After I posted that message about the word "religion" in the bible I realized it might be taken as confrontational, and that wasn't my intent.

Ken - even though we have never had the pleasure to meet in person I feel that I have come to know you well enough online that I understood the intent of your post. All is good my friend.

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
I do, however, believe that generally speaking these 'spiritual' people, those that take liberties with reality seem to be a happier group of people. You can often identify them on nomads by their writing style. A sort of loosey-goosey description of everything they experience. Interestingly enough, with the exception of Baja Gringo they have not participated on this thread.

So, Ken, the bottom line is that it's not religion that is the problem, it's rationality.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

You go for a walk as I did this morning and come across an iris which delights you. You then note all of it's colors. You count it's petals and write down. You measure it's height and size of all components. You take it to the lab and break it down to it's organic compounds and write down. You place it into a bomb calorimeter and measure it's caloric content. Now you've got all the information that you could possibly get from this flower. Has your experience become any richer as a result? Was your experience richer before you learned all of this?

To me, the above is somehow related to how a spiritual person experiences life vs the rest of us.

I am loosey-goosey? Does the fact that I even know what a bomb calorimeter is and performed analyses using one (Parr) for many years sway you???

:lol:

Cypress - 6-11-2012 at 03:02 PM

Bajafun777, Those "special needs"? :biggrin:

Skipjack Joe - 6-11-2012 at 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Noone can deny that religious people do good things. But in my opinion they do them in spite of religion, not because of it.

I agree. For every Mother Theresa there many Bill Gates contributing millions to world disease.

By the same token the evil done by the church in the name of the church is not done because of religion but in spite of religion.

When the time comes that a stadium full of fans can watch an NFL football game completely dispassionately. Then there will be no more crusades.

woody with a view - 6-11-2012 at 03:12 PM

we are all from different clans. most clans feel superior to others. that about sums it up without invoking religion.

Ken Bondy - 6-11-2012 at 03:16 PM

Igor I have embedded some responses in your post below, they are in {{brackets}}

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

But, Ken, no christian believes in any of this these days. Are you saying that the only true christians are the ones who accept literally everything that's written in that book? I'm not sure there is value in disclaiming a religion that few religious people believe in. {{I don't see the point of having a holy book, written or inspired by the creator of the universe, if nobody believes what it says. What's the point? paranewbi and Bajafun777 seem to believe everything in the bible. If, as you say, no Christian believes in the bible, why don't they just reject it?}}

There was a fair amount of writing about the authorship of the bible. Above you talked about the great flood. Most people, however, are struck by the absurdity of the story. That is the idea of fitting the gazillion species into that ark. The story reminds many of us of stories of primitive people for their own origins, e.g. the world sits on the back of 4 sea turtles. And then there is genesis itself. So people of faith pick and choose sections of the bible they find most inspiring. Even the churches do that. They do this because of inconsistencies and falsehoods in the bible. Yet you feel uncomfortable with that. You refer to it as cherry picking I believe.

The biggest inconsistency seems to be between the old and new testament.

An eye for an eye vs turn the other cheek.

There is clearly a different direction that christianity has turned. It seems to me that after Christ appeared historically the teaching of humility and meekness have replaced that of retribution in almost all of Christendom. {{This is simply untrue Igor. jesus defended the old testament and said (Matthew 5:18) that every word in the old testament must be observed. That would include slavery, genocide, and all the other killing so lovingly advocated by god in the old testament}} The only people who still defend their vengeful actions are the Jewish people, who never accepted Christ as deity anyway. I bring this up because you felt it was unreasonable that Christians don't acknowledge the old testament sometimes. They really can't and the church since Christ has gone in a different direction. {{Then why does every christian bible contain an old testament?}}

Regarding truth and spirituality. I have to say that I've felt uncomfortable with the approaches and notions that psychologists use to get at truth. It's all seems so soft and unstable. Conclusions based upon how a people felt after an experience. Higher power. Spirituality. Awareness without seeing. All of these concepts that best describe religious experience.

Through your writing,Ken, it seems to me that you too feel uncomfortable in this type of world. Your approach to the bible is totally rational. You dispute it in a very logical manner and nobody can really refute your objections.

I do, however, believe that generally speaking these 'spiritual' people, those that take liberties with reality seem to be a happier group of people. You can often identify them on nomads by their writing style. A sort of loosey-goosey description of everything they experience. Interestingly enough, with the exception of Baja Gringo they have not participated on this thread.

So, Ken, the bottom line is that it's not religion that is the problem, it's rationality.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

You go for a walk as I did this morning and come across an iris which delights you. You then note all of it's colors. You count it's petals and write down. You measure it's height and size of all components. You take it to the lab and break it down to it's organic compounds and write down. You place it into a bomb calorimeter and measure it's caloric content. Now you've got all the information that you could possibly get from this flower. Has your experience become any richer as a result? Was your experience richer before you learned all of this?

To me, the above is somehow related to how a spiritual person experiences life vs the rest of us. {When I encounter a beautiful iris I am stunned by the beauty, but I have no interest in the chemical composition. I am, however, in awe of the evolutionary process of natural selection, which in very slow steps over millennia, each favoring the survival of the flower, made it what it is today. That, to me is a very spiritual thing, having nothing to do with god, religion or any other superstitions, and much more beautiful than any of the silly religious fairy tales.}

Skipjack Joe - 6-11-2012 at 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by woody with a view
we are all from different clans. most clans feel superior to others. that about sums it up without invoking religion.

Yes. And religion is used to uphold and strengthen the clan. They establish the "True Faith" and the young men are then blessed in the battlefield before they raise their arms.

We've got it backwards. It's not religion driving men to war. That whole third reich thing was about clanishness.

Ken Bondy - 6-11-2012 at 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bajafun777
Ken correction to Weinberg opinion of his writings, It should be "for good people to do evil things, that takes corruption and bad people!"

Bajafun777 I have always thought Weinberg's quote was a bit extreme, even though I use it all the time

. It would have been more accurate as "religion makes it a helluva lot easier for good people to do bad things". Based on my personal experience that is indisputably true.

vgabndo - 6-11-2012 at 04:35 PM

"We've got it backwards. It's not religion driving men to war. That whole third reich thing was about clanishness."

While it may be true that the Ostrogoths, Visigoths and Huns were taught to me to be barbarians, the 20th century Hun, as the Allied Powers referred to them, was for the most part a modern Christian. Christianity didn't seem to have much of an effect on their clannish barbarian behavior.

On the subject of the great flood, I finally found my search error and located the 1970's information I'd lost that provides the first good explanation for all the flood myths in historic middle eastern cultures. Check out the work of the Glomar Challenger. She was a sister ship to the Glomar Explorer the sometimes CIA contract vessel. The Challenger did work on plate tectonics and did a long series of bore holes along the length of the Mediterranean Sea. They found good evidence that the Med. had dried up and refilled repeatedly as recently as 600,000 years ago.

http://www.divediscover.whoi.edu/history-ocean/drilling.html

Mexitron - 6-11-2012 at 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
Today, I believe in God with all my heart and soul. After what Cristina and I went through last year, that belief today is only stronger.

An aspiring Hindu goes to his guru for spiritual help...after some time the young man attains the stage of enlightenment that he is "also" God. Wow, he thinks, I'm God! Full of it, he proudly walks down the main street in town...some distance away down the street a man on on elephant is coming towards him...the young aspirant thinks to himself that now that he is God the man on the elephant can very well just get out of his way...they get nearer and nearer to each other and finally the elephant rider is yelling at the intern to get out of the way but he doesn't step aside and gets badly trampled by the elephant. Bruised and battered the intern makes his way back to the guru and tells him the story about the elephant. The aspirant explains his confusion as to why the elephant didn't get out of his way, now that he was God...the guru replies----the rider on the elephant is God too!

Always like that parable---but yes since God is as much a part of us as anything else (I'm speaking in metaphor here) its not surprising that our own psychologies are integral to the experience, at least in part.

Thank-you for your insights Ifly--nice!

BajaGringo - 6-11-2012 at 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
Today, I believe in God with all my heart and soul. After what Cristina and I went through last year, that belief today is only stronger.

Skipjack Joe - 6-11-2012 at 04:51 PM

{{I don't see the point of having a holy book, written or inspired by the creator of the universe, if nobody believes what it says. What's the point? paranewbi and Bajafun777 seem to believe everything in the bible. If, as you say, no Christian believes in the bible, why don't they just reject it?}}

Yes, paranewbi and bajafun777 do believe everything in the bible, but BajaGringo feels it's his right to interpret it as it makes sense to him. Most Christians are like BajaGringo. Most Christians don't believe in the story of Noah's Ark. The people I grew up with were like BajaGringo. I never knew any fundamentalists. I spent a year in Catholic school and 2 in a Protestant school. I can't remember a single bible passage that I memorized during those 2 years but can remember most of the songs ("What a Friend I have in Jesus").

I never said that Christians don't believe in the bible. I said that Christians feel a certain amount of freedom to interpret it in a way that makes sense to them. That's part of it's richness.

{When I encounter a beautiful iris I am stunned by the beauty, but I have no interest in the chemical composition. I am, however, in awe of the evolutionary process of natural selection, which in very slow steps over millennia, each favoring the survival of the flower, made it what it is today. That, to me is a very spiritual thing, having nothing to do with god, religion or any other superstitions, and much more beautiful than any of the silly religious fairy tales.}

As I understand it god is a concept that is derived from spirituality. Perhaps some day you will conceive of a god in your musings about evolution.

Ateo - 6-11-2012 at 04:57 PM

To throw out the Old Testament is to throw out the creation story, Adam and Eve, Noah and the flood, and a whole lot more. I'm fine with it, but most Christians aren't.

Let's call this book what it is - a compilation of beliefs from bronze age goat herders. When I summarize my feelings towards the bible I usually narrow it down to the three major disagreements i have with it - the way the bible talks about women, the way it talks about children, and the way it talks about homosexuals.

woody with a view - 6-11-2012 at 04:59 PM

the bible is a compilation of old campfire stories passed down about the right way to live.

i'm in the process of compiling my own book of campfire stories so stay tuned!

Ken Bondy - 6-11-2012 at 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ateo
To throw out the Old Testament is to throw out the creation story, Adam and Eve, Noah and the flood, and a whole lot more. I'm fine with it, but most Christians aren't.

Let's call this book what it is - a compilation of beliefs from bronze age goat herders. When I summarize my feelings towards the bible I usually narrow it down to the three major disagreements i have with it - the way the bible talks about women, the way it talks about children, and the way it talks about homosexuals.

How about slavery?

Mexitron - 6-11-2012 at 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
Today, I believe in God with all my heart and soul. After what Cristina and I went through last year, that belief today is only stronger.

Sorry Ron---I was responding to Ifly's insights about Leary, et al---should have taken you out of the quote, sorry for being lazy, I wasn't meaning to comment on your beliefs at all. My bad.

Ken Bondy - 6-11-2012 at 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

I never said that Christians don't believe in the bible.

Not a big deal Igor but here's your direct quote:

"But, Ken, no christian believes in any of this these days."

Ateo - 6-11-2012 at 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

How about slavery?

Ok, I'll add slavery. It's now my four major disagreements......just trying to keep the list short and to be honest I'm tired of hearing the apologists rebuttal of "oh it wasn't THAT type of slavery, it was different times back then....."

Ken Bondy - 6-11-2012 at 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
As I understand it god is a concept that is derived from spirituality. Perhaps some day you will conceive of a god in your musings about evolution.

Don't hold your breath amigo

Ateo - 6-11-2012 at 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
As I understand it god is a concept that is derived from spirituality. Perhaps some day you will conceive of a god in your musings about evolution.

Don't hold your breath amigo

Yeah, evolution ain't god..........there's actually evidence for evolution!

:lol:

Skipjack Joe - 6-11-2012 at 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

I never said that Christians don't believe in the bible.

Not a big deal Igor but here's your direct quote:

"But, Ken, no christian believes in any of this these days."

Ken, I was referring to your statement which you ommited from the above quote:

Quote:

But, Ken, no christian believes in any of this these days.

Ken Bondy - 6-11-2012 at 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

I never said that Christians don't believe in the bible.

Not a big deal Igor but here's your direct quote:

"But, Ken, no christian believes in any of this these days."

Ken, I was referring to your statement which you ommited from the above quote:

Quote:

But, Ken, no christian believes in any of this these days.

I get it. I thought you were referring to the bible in general, sorry!

Iflyfish - 6-11-2012 at 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo

Quote:

Originally posted by Mexitron

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Originally posted by BajaGringo
Today, I believe in God with all my heart and soul. After what Cristina and I went through last year, that belief today is only stronger.

To equate this parable with my experience is demeaning and erroneous. This is exactly why I should have followed my initial gut instinct to avoid posting at all in this thread. Have a nice day...

I don't discount the real life experiences of people. I in no way meant to discount what you shared of your experience. I have heard too many stories not to have an open mind about these things. My point is that our experiences are integrated by us using the language, culture and understanding that we have. Most people discuss these experiences using "spiritual" terms. There is a remarkable similarity between stories recorded by people with death and near death experiences. I too have experienced going thru a tunnel toward the light, a common experience. I have not met anyone greeting me as others report. Some people have no memory at all of their death/near death experiences. It is often very hard for people to share these experiences with people who do not or cannot understand the significance of these experiences to them. Many people come to religion thru profound experiences that rock their world.
I sincerely apologize to you if I said posted anything that could be read as discounting your very personal and profound experience. All of my words could not change what you experienced and I would never wish to do so. Indeed I would be very interested in learning more about his experience, though I doubt that this thread is the place to do so. There are more things under heaven and earth than are dreamed of in our philosophies, I believe that. I am as open to hearing and genuinely listening to your experience as I am to a well presented presentation on string or parallel universe presentations. The difference is that you had a genuine experience and for you this is not speculation!

Iflyfish
:rolleyes:

Bajafun777 - 6-11-2012 at 05:51 PM

Cypress, those special needs have been for glasses for some kids and adults that needed them, to help coversome burial expenses for some members that did not have enough, clothes for some members that were homeless but we helped get into housing so they could go out for job searches, sometimes when our members kids graduate high school and they are going to our church we get them something from the local christian church store. A number of things like this could come into special needs as we have even helped in medical supplies for members when needed. The church board has to vote on all of these before a dime can be used.
Take Care & Travel Safe---"No Hurry, No Worry, Just FUN" bajafun777

Skipjack Joe - 6-11-2012 at 06:42 PM

Well, this has certainly been a rich thread. I learned quite a bit while doing research.

For example. It turns out that there never was a pope Joan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Joan

I once raised my hand in 8th grade an asked sister Mary Clarenita if it's true that there had once been a female pope. It infuriated her. I know what you're thinking, Ken: Igor, you haven't changed a bit.

Our thread also prompted me to rent Elmer Gantry last night and I learned about American Revivalism. No doubt about it. Those meetings must've been a lot of fun. Even rivaled shari's parties.

[Edited on 6-12-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

Really?

mcfez - 6-12-2012 at 12:45 AM

"Doug I have been on this board for 10 years. Had a great time until about 2 years ago. When the Mcfez, Goat, Joe bunch got on and ruined it".

Looks like you post here got ruined by many others :lol:

paranewbi - 6-12-2012 at 04:42 AM

Cmon McFez....there was an appropriate wake and memorial held in the first handful of postings for our dearly departed Skeet! (and perhaps a much more better sendoff than I will receive when it is my time to pass on).

Then as usual the thread veered into some personal exhanges and eventually into the obligatory choice of either political, religious, sexual innuendo, booze, David K, Toyota v. Ford, Chevy, VW, dirt, asphalt, mileage left on unpaved part of Gonzaga trail, destruction of Baja's hidden secrets, who caught the latest biggest fish hidden in a supposed informative offering of updating the conditions for those who are following behind with their latest fish kill equipment or recipe (I have some McFez bate festering in my garage right now!), and of course the never to missed pointing out by someone who actually remembers...were this all started.

Now can we move on into the morphed thread of 'how many ways does a thread veer from it's point of origin'?

Because Inevitably someone will find my list lacking somewhere.

woody with a view - 6-12-2012 at 04:50 AM

you left out real estate scams and swindlers!

paranewbi - 6-12-2012 at 04:58 AM

Let the party begin

Ken Bondy - 6-12-2012 at 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by paranewbi
Cmon McFez....there was an appropriate wake and memorial held in the first handful of postings for our dearly departed Skeet! (and perhaps a much more better sendoff than I will receive when it is my time to pass on).

Then as usual the thread veered into some personal exhanges and eventually into the obligatory choice of either political, religious, sexual innuendo, booze, David K, Toyota v. Ford, Chevy, VW, dirt, asphalt, mileage left on unpaved part of Gonzaga trail, destruction of Baja's hidden secrets, who caught the latest biggest fish hidden in a supposed informative offering of updating the conditions for those who are following behind with their latest fish kill equipment or recipe (I have some McFez bate festering in my garage right now!), and of course the never to missed pointing out by someone who actually remembers...were this all started.

Now can we move on into the morphed thread of 'how many ways does a thread veer from it's point of origin'?

Because Inevitably someone will find my list lacking somewhere.

What are you smoking paranewbi?

paranewbi - 6-12-2012 at 06:39 AM

Tried to share it already Ken...
:lol:

Ken Bondy - 6-12-2012 at 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by paranewbi
Tried to share it already Ken...
:lol:

I want some!!!!

shari - 6-12-2012 at 08:03 AM

first off...buenos dias amigos...I have been following this most enlightening thread off and on as time permits. I wasnt going to comment..just sit back and listen and learn. However my name was raised a couple of times and I'm not sure if I am one of the loosey gooseys...I'm not even sure which "side" I'm on. I dont know if my faith constitutes being an athiest, agnostic or what. I cant bring myself to have faith in the word "God" yet I have faith that there is something out there protecting, gently directing and helping me exist and make the right moves. I follow my "inner voice" wherever that comes from and it has saved my life a few times now which strengthens my faith in "IT". I know this sounds pretty ridiculous and yup...loosey goosey..but it's my faith.

What I know is that I have a difficult time explaining my personal faith to others and so generally I choose not to. I too had a near death experience that has formed my present belief system. At the time, I looked to the heavens and asked myself if it was God who was speaking to me and had saved me and I came to the conclusion it wasnt.

My faith does involve a belief in a higher "power" of which I honestly dont know what it is...beings in a parallel universe? some beings resembling angels? other species who have the cosmic ability to save lives? maybe beings from stars? whatever "they" are, they seem to do it without the need for us to devote our lives to them, read their books, go to their church...they save you and disappear into the woodwork again. It is like they perform a favour...perhaps fulfilling some karmic debt by saving our butts. Why "they" do it is a great mystery but I'm happy to have them on my team.

Oh my word...I cant believe I just wrote all that. It just doesnt make sense...but what is sense anyway?

thank you brother and sister Nomads for this fascinating thread and the civility of it...over and out.

Ken Bondy - 6-12-2012 at 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
My faith does involve a belief in a higher "power" of which I honestly dont know what it is...beings in a parallel universe? some beings resembling angels? other species who have the cosmic ability to save lives? maybe beings from stars? whatever "they" are, they seem to do it without the need for us to devote our lives to them, read their books, go to their church...they save you and disappear into the woodwork again. It is like they perform a favour...perhaps fulfilling some karmic debt by saving our butts. Why "they" do it is a great mystery but I'm happy to have them on my team.

Buen dicho sis. How about just the natural world? Que mas quieres?

Ateo - 6-12-2012 at 08:15 AM

Nice post Shari! Thanks for sharing!

shari - 6-12-2012 at 08:21 AM

thank YOU too...while I've never been accused of being eloquent....I calls it like I sees it.

Barry A. - 6-12-2012 at 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
thank YOU too...while I've never been accused of being eloquent....I calls it like I sees it.

To me, "eloquent" is the art of communications---------your a star in that category, Shari, believe me!!!

Barry

Iflyfish - 6-12-2012 at 09:26 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by shari
first off...buenos dias amigos...I have been following this most enlightening thread off and on as time permits. I wasnt going to comment..just sit back and listen and learn. However my name was raised a couple of times and I'm not sure if I am one of the loosey gooseys...I'm not even sure which "side" I'm on. I dont know if my faith constitutes being an athiest, agnostic or what. I cant bring myself to have faith in the word "God" yet I have faith that there is something out there protecting, gently directing and helping me exist and make the right moves. I follow my "inner voice" wherever that comes from and it has saved my life a few times now which strengthens my faith in "IT". I know this sounds pretty ridiculous and yup...loosey goosey..but it's my faith.

What I know is that I have a difficult time explaining my personal faith to others and so generally I choose not to. I too had a near death experience that has formed my present belief system. At the time, I looked to the heavens and asked myself if it was God who was speaking to me and had saved me and I came to the conclusion it wasnt.

My faith does involve a belief in a higher "power" of which I honestly dont know what it is...beings in a parallel universe? some beings resembling angels? other species who have the cosmic ability to save lives? maybe beings from stars? whatever "they" are, they seem to do it without the need for us to devote our lives to them, read their books, go to their church...they save you and disappear into the woodwork again. It is like they perform a favour...perhaps fulfilling some karmic debt by saving our butts. Why "they" do it is a great mystery but I'm happy to have them on my team.

Oh my word...I cant believe I just wrote all that. It just doesnt make sense...but what is sense anyway?

thank you brother and sister Nomads for this fascinating thread and the civility of it...over and out.

Yours is this sort of experience that helps me to keep an open mind. It is hard to language experiences like you have had. We have a need to language our experiences and ones like you have had are very difficult to get our heads around in part because our language are inadequate to describe them. Allen Watts once said "If you see the beatific image (the face of god) in an ashtray for god's sake don't tell anyone!" He was pointing at the issue you so clearly raise, how do you describe something that you can't clearly get your head around but know to exist? Mystics often sound at least obtuse and sometimes crazy as they attempt to tell us of their experience with these matters. In my view it takes courage to tell these stories of our experiences.

I was once visited by my dead father, in a dream, as real and compelling as a kiss on my lips. He rolled up to me on a skateboard, baseball cap askew and a smile on his face. I was a bit startled and ask "why did you come like this?", his immediate response didn't miss a beat "It was the only way I thought I could get your attention. I wanted to tell you that I am alright, don't worry have fun", he smiled a big self satisfied grin and rolled off. He always did have a great sense of humor. Where that experience came from I have no idea, a parallel universe, heaven, my hypothalamus, was he reincarnated, was this my mind, which I suspect, playing tricks, helping me to reassure myself that death is ok and that my father loved me enough to come back and play/reassure me? Some would say I was visited by god/angels/spirit/ghost or reincarnated being. Who knows? If there is indeed reincarnation, and the level that one returns on is based upon some virtue from a prior life, then I must have been a Mother Theresa for sure cause life is very good.

By the way, I love how this thread has morphed as great as a great conversation does.

Iflyfishconminomadamigos

Ken Bondy - 6-12-2012 at 09:42 AM

Look what showed up on Facebook today!! It's a miracle!!

Skipjack Joe - 6-12-2012 at 09:46 AM

Ken,

Well, you tried. And you went about it the right way. If there's anyway to convince them it's probably using quotes from the bible itself.

[Edited on 6-12-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

Iflyfish - 6-12-2012 at 09:55 AM

Zen parable:

"Truth has nothing to do with words. Truth can be likened to the bright moon in the sky. Words, in this case, can be likened to a finger. The finger can point to the moon's location. However, the finger is not the moon. To look at the moon, it is necessary to gaze beyond the finger, right?"

Here is Alan Watts giving his lecture on Fingers Pointing at the Moon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEKwJjeSQXk&feature=playe...

Here is a demonstration of Fingers Pointing at the Moon by Bruce Lee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDW6vkuqGLg&feature=relat...

My brother quotes Lau Tsu on the matter.

Lau Tsu
From verse 32
The way is for ever nameless….. As soon as there are names
One ought to know that it is time to stop…..
The way is to the world as the River and the Sea are to rivulets and streams.

I guess sometimes words just fail! Finally got to this point on Tues, Wow!

Iflyfish

[Edited on 6-12-2012 by Iflyfish]

Ken Bondy - 6-12-2012 at 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Ken,

Well, you tried. And you went about it the right way. If there's anyway to convince them it's probably using quotes from the bible itself.

[Edited on 6-12-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

Except that paranewbi told me I couldn't do that

. He could quote from the bible but I couldn't. Not fair.

oxxo - 6-12-2012 at 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
no christian believes in any of this these days. Are you saying that the only true christians are the ones who accept literally everything that's written in that book?

Our parish priest taught us in Catechism class that the Bible is a story book filled with legends and parables (sort of like a historical novel) and not a history book. I guess some on this thread would call him a heretic.

Skipjack Joe - 6-12-2012 at 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Iflyfish
Zen parable:

"Truth has nothing to do with words. Truth can be likened to the bright moon in the sky. Words, in this case, can be likened to a finger. The finger can point to the moon's location. However, the finger is not the moon. To look at the moon, it is necessary to gaze beyond the finger, right?"

Here is Alan Watts giving his lecture on Fingers Pointing at the Moon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEKwJjeSQXk&feature=playe...

Here is a demonstration of Fingers Pointing at the Moon by Bruce Lee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDW6vkuqGLg&feature=relat...

My brother quotes Lau Tsu on the matter.

Lau Tsu
From verse 32
The way is for ever nameless….. As soon as there are names
One ought to know that it is time to stop…..
The way is to the world as the River and the Sea are to rivulets and streams.

I guess sometimes words just fail! Finally got to this point on Tues, Wow!

Iflyfish

I have to admit I have an almost visceral revulsion to this form of knowledge. When I read the sort of stuff Watts writes I feel I'm being duped. I guess that's why psychology has always been a suspectful science to me.

All of this reminds me of Plato's allegory of the Caves. As you know the story goes that men are chained to the walls and only see the shadows of the world on the wall. From that they deduce reality.

Taking this further we come to the view that all of our modern evaluations of truth by tests and quantifications are the wrong way to go about it. All we need to do is face reality and somehow it will be perceived naturally.

Unfortunately our civilization stands on the shoulders of men who 'study the shadows'. Our progress is due precisely because we chose to NOT look at the moon. It's the people who don't look at the moon that come up with cures for cancer and the internet.

Instead of looking at the moon and sensing it's reality the person examining the finger learns with his painstaking method of studying shadows, he learns the laws of motion and flies to the moon.

It is precisely because Western civilization has decided to gain knowledge by not looking at the moon that it has advanced so far and so fast past the older civilzation. Starting with the Renaissance.

---------------------------

See, I'm on your side now, Ken.

DENNIS - 6-12-2012 at 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oxxo
Our parish priest taught us in Catechism class that the Bible is a story book filled with legends and parables (sort of like a historical novel) and not a history book. I guess some on this thread would call him a heretic.

As I mentioned earlier of my seven years in Catholic Hell, I can not remember one mention of the Bible. All references were to the Baltimore Catechism..... the workbook specifically designed to warp young minds with the proper mixture of fear and reward.

paranewbi - 6-12-2012 at 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy

Quote:

Except that paranewbi told me I couldn't do that

. He could quote from the bible but I couldn't. Not fair.

yawn....

Iflyfish - 6-12-2012 at 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

comitan - 6-12-2012 at 02:23 PM

LIKE!!!!

durrelllrobert - 6-12-2012 at 02:30 PM

To this day I truely believe that The Holy Gost was nailing the Virgin Mary long before Joseph got his chance.

Iflyfish - 6-12-2012 at 02:31 PM

Skip:

I don't see it as an either/or proposition but a both/and.

Our Western way of understanding things goes back to Aristotle who broke the world into pieces and that has resulted in an analytical process that indeed has helped us understand how things work from a scientific perspective and produced a lot of benefit for mankind, as well as some pretty terrible things like Atom Bombs.

On the other hand there are different ways of perceiving what we by consensus describe as reality. It is interesting to note that the brain has to turn right side up the images that are perceived thru the lenses of our eyes. The brain is a regulatory organ and in many helpful ways LIMITS or senses and perceptions. This is helpful as it allows us to not be distracted by so much input. People whose filter mechanisms are screwed up have a difficult time maneuvering thru the world and often carry with them Psychiatric diagnosis.

There is I believe value in the Eastern view of things when approaching those issues related to matters "spiritual" or "religious" or the sort of experiences tha t some have shared with us.

It is interesting to note that Western Physics now sounds and looks much like Eastern Metaphysics.

Watts was an Episcopalian cleric who studied the teaching of the East and came away, as many Western Theologians who study the East, with a Buddhist sort of perspective, of the world and everything in it as part of an interacting whole.

I can understand your discomfort with Watts, who challenges our firmly held perceptions of that consensus we call reality. It helps to be comfortable with altered states to "get" Zen.

I imagine you have had the experience of fly-fishing and you get that wonderful feeling of being ship/rod/fly/fish and get into the flow of it. Ahhhh!!!! That is the un-self conscious state I think that Watts and others of the Eastern persuasion point to.

Psychologically it can be very frightening for people to allow themselves to experience this "letting go of the self" because of the fear of losing the self. For those who have pretty loosely packed egos or too tightly paced egos it can be very dangerous to "surrender" to experience and to "get out of the mind". I think that this is why some people can't orgasm. It takes letting go. Our developmental experiences related to trust can have powerful influences on the ability to "let go" and "to be".

I am glad that I have motor vehicle or airplane that I can ride to Baja. These are products of the Western way of looking at things. I am also glad that I can experience myself on the beaches of Mexico being beach/sand/flyrod/fly/fishing/dancing to Credence Clear Water Revival and not be afraid of dying.

Iflyfish

[Edited on 6-12-2012 by Iflyfish]

Iflyfish - 6-12-2012 at 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by comitan
LIKE!!!!

Well said!! A good discussion can do that!

Iflyfish

Iflyfish - 6-12-2012 at 03:21 PM

As regards the integration of the Western and Eastern perspectives music can be an interesting to think about.

Music is perfectly logical however it also has the capacity to "carry you", to "uplift you", to allow you access to deeper levels of feeling. Music is both/and.

Considering the meter, key, cleft, blobs of ink on the page representing relative positions of notes, counterpoint, triads etc., the logical aspects of it allows one to compose something that one cannot fully appreciate without dropping consciousness of these things. To be carried by music is to let go of these mechanical devices, necessary to the composition of the music. This is why I have said that music is both/and, a wonderful metaphor and experience to integrate the seeming duality of East/West metaphysics.

Allan Watts gives a wonderful lecture on this topic here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPjOtxviwmw

Iflyfish

toneart - 6-12-2012 at 03:29 PM

Alan Watts had a houseboat in Sausalito at the same time I did. We had many a conversation. At first, I too regarded him with skepticism. Then I read his books and put the personal familiarity together with the man's work. I thought he had an air of hokiness about him, but ultimately decided otherwise. The work overpowered his manner. Then...it might have been a test.

I approached Zen Buddhism from an aesthetic perspective, rather than becoming an ascetic. I have sat Zazen, meditated, read volumes of material including Haiku, studied Zen Art, and incorporated it into my own art; painting and glass art. Yet, I am too involved in The Western World to become a monk.

Gary Snyder, the Pulitizer Prize winning Poet lives and has a Zen Ashram across The Yuba River from Nevada City, where I live. A few years ago, my band played quiet, original jazz during intermission when he held a reading. I run into him on occasion and it is always a pleasure. What an enlightened Human Being!

When I was an English Literature Student at San Francisco State University, I modeled my work, a blend of Zen and Nature, after Snyder, and also some of the other Beat Poets in North Beach.

It is so interesting to me how certain philosophies can resonate with one and not with another. Many have melded the teachings of Eastern and Western Civilization.

It is hard to say what is attractive about Eastern teachings to one and "revulsion" to another. I think it has to do with the curiosity to set out on a quest to find The Truth when you are young and suddenly a revelation hits you, if you're lucky, right between the eyes (The God Spot).

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe

Quote:

Ateo - 6-12-2012 at 03:31 PM

Nex topic on the Skeet thread:

Free Will.

Real or not? :biggrin:

Cypress - 6-12-2012 at 03:44 PM

toneart, Curiosity! Magic! Mystery! :yes:

It's all blended together. :biggrin:

DianaT - 6-12-2012 at 03:44 PM

Alan Watts and the blending of East and West to me is mind expanding and can lead to even more creative ideas for the future.

In all of my classrooms, in the prisons and in public schools, I always used a simplified lesson taken from Watts that questions western philosophy/logic. It was the pool table example of why the one ball went into the pocket. ALWAYS, the overwhelming answers were based on western logic -- the stick hit ball A which hit ball B and because it was aimed property, ball B ended up in the pocket.

Next the students would start thinking of other possibilities and all possibilities were discussed and questioned-- there were lots of lessons involved and rather mind expanding for the students.

For me, it is not an either or thing as there are positive ideas and thoughts that can be drawn from many philosophies, traditions, religions, and secular writings.

[Edited on 6-12-2012 by DianaT]

DianaT - 6-12-2012 at 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ateo
Nex topic on the Skeet thread:

Free Will.

Real or not? :biggrin:

Do you think Skeet would prefer John Calvin or Eric Hoffer ---

Me, I miss Calvin and Hobbs! :biggrin:

vgabndo - 6-12-2012 at 05:12 PM

Tony: Your comment on our common background interest in the beats reminded me of this which you may remember, and seems sort of appropriate.

From: A Coney Island of the Mind

'Truth is not the sectet of a few'
yet
you would maybe think so
the way some
librarians
and cultural ambassadors and
especially museum directors
act
you'd think they had a corner
on it
the way they
walk around shaking
their high heads and
looking as if they never
went to the bath
room or anything

But I wouldn't blame them
if I were you
They say the Spititual is best conceived
in abstract terms
and then too
walking around museums always makes me
want to
"sit down"
I always feel so
constipated
in those
high altitudes

Ferlinghetti, and bongos and berets at the Fox and Hound. :coolup:

Skipjack Joe - 6-12-2012 at 06:14 PM

Iflyfish,

Do you believe that there is such a thing as a soul?

And if so, what is it?

----------------------------------

Oh, and BTW don't be concerned about that orgasm stuff.

[Edited on 6-13-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

PEPE-LE-PEW.jpg - 18kB

Iflyfish - 6-12-2012 at 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Skipjack Joe
Iflyfish,

Do you believe that there is such a thing as a soul?

And if so, what is it?

----------------------------------

Oh, and BTW don't be concerned about that orgasm stuff.

[Edited on 6-13-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

If you believe in a soul then you have one for sure! You would have to tell me what it is.

As to the orgasm stuff I always clean up after myself, good for the soul, cleanliness being next to godliness and all.

Iflyfish

vgabndo - 6-12-2012 at 07:58 PM

Sam Harris is one of my favorites, and listening to this talk I found that if he is correct, then I really have less reason to be cross with newbi and 777 for their inflexible stance than to feel compassion that they have no free will in the matter.

Free will was proffered as a related topic earlier and this Sam Harris piece makes a compelling case that our conditioned brain is making decisions for us before we are conscious that we are going to make them! No free will.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCofmZlC72g

I wouldn't want to be in an intellectual gunfight with this guy!!!

Ken Bondy - 6-12-2012 at 08:17 PM

Harris' latest book "Free Will" makes a compelling case that there is no such thing as free will. David Eagleman, in his book "Incognito", approaches it from a somewhat different direction but comes to the same conclusion. As to "souls", no, there is no such thing. We are our physical bodies, no more, no less. I am completely comfortable with that.

[Edited on 6-13-2012 by Ken Bondy]

Barry A. - 6-12-2012 at 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Harris' latest book "Free Will" makes a compelling case that there is no such thing as free will. David Eagleman, in his book "Incognito", approaches it from a somewhat different direction but comes to the same conclusion. As to "souls", no, there is no such thing. We are our physical bodies, no more, no less. I am completely comfortable with that.

[Edited on 6-13-2012 by Ken Bondy]

What about your personal mental "energy"?? Does it just disperse into the Universe when you expire, never to coalesce again? That is one thing (of many) that has always puzzled me.

Barry

Ken Bondy - 6-12-2012 at 08:58 PM

Barry

When you die you enter the same nothingness you were in before you were born. That state didn't inconvenience me in the slightest before I was born and it won't after I am gone. The mental "energy" is organic activity in your brain and it dies when the brain dies.

Ateo - 6-12-2012 at 09:08 PM

Mark Twain said something like this:

"I do not fear death. I had been dead for billions and billions of years before I was born, and had not suffered the slightest inconvenience from it."

As far as Harris is concerned, I saw him recently at Cal Tech for a debate, and realized he has speaking skills like no other.

I look forward to the future.

Ken Bondy - 6-12-2012 at 09:25 PM

I remember the Twain quotation. I think I borrowed from it

I think Harris is incredibly brilliant and eloquent. A few years ago I saw him debate Chris Hedges on religion at UCLA. Harris demolished him. Hedges' arguments were all circular, based on the premise that the bible is true because it says it is. What a surprise.

mcfez - 6-12-2012 at 10:03 PM

Can we get back onto the subject of weird snake experiments?

Skipjack Joe - 6-12-2012 at 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ken Bondy
Barry

When you die you enter the same nothingness you were in before you were born. That state didn't inconvenience me in the slightest before I was born and it won't after I am gone. The mental "energy" is organic activity in your brain and it dies when the brain dies.

How can you make these statements with any certainty?

Your entire view on these matters is based on scientific evidence. Yet science never claims to know the truth. We label things as true because their tests give consistent results. But the brain is poorly understood. We have no explanation for consciousness or the presence of a soul or even the spiritual feeling you feel about evolution. Like the old mariner's maps during the time of Columnbus, this is terra icognito. Or like central africa until Livingston.

Moreoever, truth can change with time. As time moves forward our understanding can change. It's my understanding that Newtonian physics was found to not be the complete truth about matter by the 20th century.

So how can you say with any certainty that consciousness comes from nothing and goes back to nothing. You can say that because with the present knowledge we have no explanation.

If the best that science can do to explain BajaGringo's near death experiences is that neurotransmission occured in certain parts of the brain in a certain order then we really have a long way to go. Don't you think?

If the theists can be criticized for claiming to know the absolute truth through a book then it seems to me that scientists can be criticized for claiming truth based upon temporal data.

[Edited on 6-13-2012 by Skipjack Joe]

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