BajaNomad

Baja Real Estate advise

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Woooosh - 6-19-2011 at 11:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by baja1943
ramuma53

Just curious, You come across as a philanthropic angel who devotes his life to advising americanos "at your own expense" on mexican land issues. Just wondering where you derived the wealth in order to make this your life cause. In other words do you have a vested interest in all this?

I don't know about his personal agenda- if any, but the "philanthropic angel" moniker is close from my personal experience with him. A lot of Nomads have chimed in on this thread- but I think we are the only ones to have actually hired his team (but not Rasmuna53 directly). He and his legal experts have helped us a great deal, and for not a lot of money (I was taken-back by how reasonable the fees his lawyer charged, with a money-back guarantee no less). They quickly investigated and found what legal papers the squatters had filed in court and then took specific actions to refute them). I don't think they take on many cases or "social causes"- only the ones that share their interests and that make a difference for the people. My case (clearing squatters off the Federal Zone we hold title to) hits the PGJE this week- I'll let you know how it goes. For sure I would rather have Ramuma53 on my side than against me.

ramuma53 - 6-19-2011 at 05:10 PM

baja1943
If I didn´t answer your question, I would be just like the other pranks that just come and bark a little with no reason behind, trying to push people to their real non disclosed agenda.
I own land worth about USD$1,000´000,000.00, in Baja and Mexico, the Mulege property hotel Buenaventura with almost 2,000 acres is just one of them, I own several land lots in the Tijuana Ensenada coastal strip, I own land in La Paz and Cabo San Lucas and all of those beach front lots have as final customer the American customer.
I was the founder of the ´Consejo Binacional de Residentes de la Costa Tijuana Ensenada A.C.´or Costal residents Binational counsel LLC. An association that did exactly the same thing I am doing today, giving people legal basis for their defense against Ejido Mazatlan and Hugo Torres Chavert.
I was the founder and first director for the workers party political party in Rosarito and the first elections we participate; we were able to put a councilman in office.
I was the founder and first director for PARM political party in Baja, coming from the New Republic philosophy, founded by Congressman Porfirio Muñoz Ledo; that party nominated me in the 2000 elections as external National Congress candidate and I was able to deliver the most votes for that party at national level; my whole estate level budget was $10,000 pesos, I didn’t win.
I was the founder for the ABC newspaper in Rosarito and 50% partner for that newspaper for 10 years, where I wrote ´Cronica de un Fraude a la Nacion´ a chronicle about the fraud being committed by the Rosarito Developers against the Mexican residents and American buyers; I wrote there ¨La verdadra Historia de Rosarito¨ the true Rosarito´s history, that lasted 123 weeks one whole page at a time; for those works I received 2 awards by two different National Newman associations.
My family has been in politics and Mexico History since the start of last century, One of my uncles was friend and personal doctor for Mexico´s President Lazaro Card##as, another of my uncles was National Congressman and chamber speaker, my father was National treasure man, my aunt Mercedes Martinez de Velilla was a federal Judge and was sent by the Mexico´s President, to clean Tijuana and Rosarito from illegal casinos and closed Hotel Rosarito when she caught them operating as an illegal casino and mafia base (with little long lasting results I see), she then served for many years as Baja Circuit Federal Judge and then ended her legal career, defending poor ejidos for free or a few chickens or a few kilos of something; she also founded most of the women attorneys associations in the whole Mexico, because she was the first woman attorney to graduate from Jalisco Public university and she did it at age 19.
My aunt´s daughter and my cousin also, was Tijuana Councilwoman and one of the most respected popular leaders in Tijuana, Aida Baltazar Martinez, her daughter has been Federal Congresswoman, Tijuana councilwoman two times and many other public office posts.
Yes I have an agenda, to correct the Tijuana to Ensenada fraud against American and Mexican buyers and landowners. I do this because I am one of them and I believe that Baja has developed mostly because of tourism, Industry is new and not good for Baja. I have been doing this for 25 years while tending my businesses; I have worked for the government, but for free.
I have two black belts in Karate, Lima Lama with Grand master and Samoa Prince Tino Tuiolosega and Kung do Lama with Grand Master Rigoberto Lopez, at age 18, I taught Karate at the National Army College in Mexico City while studding Physics and Mathematics, then did the same at the Secret Service and then worked as an external agent for Army intelligence and Mexico´s National Security; I studied Computing systems, Electro Mechanics and Civil Engineering then later became Attorney at Mexican law (I say that I studied the Law to defend myself from my own attorneys).
I believe that Baja have done well while providing a service to American customers and to steal from them and committing fraud against them, is completely wrong and it is economical suicide; I have been saying this publicly for 30 years and sadly my predictions became true.
Why I help Americans? Because I am the only Mexican at my house, my wife is a Professional social worker, Master in Business administration by Phoenix University and an American citizen, California resident; my two sons are also American citizens by birth, the same as my daughter; but the most important factor is because My second son, was diagnosed with leukemia at age 4 and was saved by Children Hospital in San Diego CA, and I don´t think I need any more reasons.
Would this explain my actions?
My technical and legal team only works on cases that are according to my philosophy that is theirs also, they will never cheat or work for the other side and it has worked for them and me for 30 years.

[Edited on 6-20-2011 by ramuma53]

Paladin - 6-20-2011 at 09:30 AM

I took this from a previous post. It seems to be a key to me at least.

BASED ON NATIONAL LAND PRIVATE PROPERTY TITLES ISSUED ON THE PERIOD 1918 TO 1962 AND FROM 1968 TO DATE ARE COMPLETELY SAFE AND I HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE OF THOSE LOSE A LEGAL BATTLE, INCLUDING THE PUNTA BANDA FIASCO WAS WON BY ONE OF THOSE

I'm happy to say the least to hear you own property in BCS.

Based on the above I have a question SPECIFIC to San Bruno.

Can someone just go to Santa Roselia and verify the DATES the Town lots/owners received their title???

Thanks again

wessongroup - 6-20-2011 at 10:27 AM

Woooosh... keep us up to date on your progress in court.. this will really be interesting to follow...

Find it interesting that some find it hard to understand how an individual would act with kindness and help his fellow man...

That was what I as a young boy liked about Baja, the kindness of the people ...

My Dad first started taking us down in 1950 ... to clam, surf fish and camp out on the sand and pickle weed... we brought it all in with us ... water, food, white gas ... and lots of spare parts for the vehicle ... plus a lot of tools to work on same..

Thanks for the memory...

ramuma53 - 6-20-2011 at 02:17 PM

Paladin
As I said, Local Public Registry is just an legal hint, it in itself does not mean you would have no problems, but it is good sign if you find nothing there like an Ejido or Colonial title at the bottom of the legal title chain.
To be sure, you have to check the Federal Public Registries and I mean Agrarian Public Registry together with Agrarian Cadastral Registry; there you will find anything that is a threat to the land ownership, there you will find any ejido or colonial title or even any national land right or National Land title already issued that may affect the property; if you find nothing, you are on the clear, but remember that at the bottom of the title legal chain you must have a national Land title issued on the safe periods.
Those offices are in La Paz BCS.

Paladin - 6-22-2011 at 06:56 PM

ramuma53

Thanks for info again. Another question or two.

The questions are SPECIFIC to the village of San Bruno only.
(just north of Mulege)

The village as I understand it was formed and subdivided (lots surveyed) etc BEFORE eijdos came into existence.

Correct???

Towns/villages have no Colonial problems??

Correct??

Is it true then that all of the lots all have the same date of coming into existence??

If so, shouldn't it be easy to say buying a lot in San Bruno is safe and relatively easy to do a complete Title check??

Thanks again

Woooosh - 6-22-2011 at 10:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup
Woooosh... keep us up to date on your progress in court.. this will really be interesting to follow...

The ministerial police didn't get their written report to the PGJE attorney in time- so it got moved to next week. One step at a time so we don't trip over the finish line :)

To make things even more confusing, PROFEPA came by the house today to research the denuncia I filed with them about this squatter on March 25, 2010. This squatter will likely die there of old age before anyone in authority over the Federal Maritime zone steps up to evict her. Any person who thinks they bought ocean front property in Baja shouldn't be surprised after this story when someone pops up in front of them on the beach one day, refuses to leave and the Mexican gov't lets them do it. So just don't buy oceanfront property in Rosarito Beach thinking you will have a view of the ocean I guess....

[Edited on 6-23-2011 by Woooosh]

ramuma53 - 6-23-2011 at 10:41 AM

Paladin
You say it sdo easy, but remember that originally every lot inside of Mexico borders is National Land (Constitution article 27 main text) then to come in to existence as Private property, it has to be sold by the National Land office, sooner or latter, if you don´t have that precedent in the title chain, it means that it is actually National Land; you have to and I mean have, to have a National Land title at the bootom or it is National Land.
Villages and towns don´t mean a thing unless they are taken out of National Land by the formation of a city and that is another procedure, but you will always find the first coming out of National Land; then it is private property.
San Bruno is in an area that if it is not Ejido, it would be National Land, because there are very few National Land titles issued at any time in that area, mine in Buenaventura is one of the few and that is why I checked the existence of the area other titles.
Suposedly there are some titles issued before 1863, but the ones I have found, were located 30 miles inland but were trying to be used in coastal lots, so be carefull; those old titles are old but very well done, they always include topographical data and astronomical location.

baja1943 - 6-23-2011 at 11:38 AM

After reading all the comments [advise] by rumuma53 about the horrors of buying property in the restricted zone, a expat might want to consider buying their dream home in Tonga. :lol:

JoeJustJoe - 6-23-2011 at 01:00 PM

Rumuma thanks for taking the time to respond to my post.

The thing about Rumuma he doesn't seem to pull any punches, and tries to tell us how things really are.

Rumuma's message seems to be, yes there are some problems with buying real estate in certain parts of Mexico/Baja but through education, knowledge, and experience. You can over come some of those obstacles if you really want to buy Mexican real estate, and it also helps to have a really good Mexican attorney to look over your paperwork before you buy. ( forgive me Rumuma if that's not your message, and write it off as only my interpretation)

Now contrast Rumuma's tell-it-like-it-is message to a message from someone like Jenny, and Baja( most likely the same person?) that only want to dwell on the negative aspects of owning real estate in Mexico/Baja in a vain attempt to keep Americans from buying property in Mexico.

I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm going to heed Rumuma's advice before I would listen to the Jennys,Bajas, and their ilk who only want to dwell in hate, fear, and ignorance about Mexico, and Mexican real estate.

Cypress - 6-23-2011 at 01:12 PM

Why is it so complicated to buy property in Baja? :lol:

baja1943 - 6-23-2011 at 01:59 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoe


The thing about Rumuma he doesn't seem to pull any punches, and tries to tell us how things really are.



I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm going to heed Rumuma's advice before I would listen to the Jennys,Bajas, and their ilk who only want to dwell in hate, fear, and ignorance about Mexico, and Mexican real estate.
Everything Rumuma posts are about the pitfalls of Mexican land ownership, unless you U2U him for advise and repre$entation.

Joe, why don't you share your land purchase experiences in baja with us. You seem to have a lot of experience in in day to day business negotiations in zona norte

Cypress - 6-23-2011 at 03:16 PM

Might rent in Baja. One of those short term lease deals.:biggrin:

ramuma53 - 6-27-2011 at 09:20 AM

JoeJustJoe
You are right and I do mind that you interpret what I say, but in a good way, because it helps a lot, to see that some of you, are getting the message right and clear.

Mexico has its difficulties and it is not new; the worst thing we can do, is hide the problems; what we need, is to correct them, so our customers don’t fall in to the traps, that some people have there, to get your money.

In Baja we want your money, we need it desperately, but we need to give the customer what he expect from his money and more; that is the only way to make a lasting business; we are neighbors, neither of us is going to go away, so we need to be fair to each other and in the process make a business and this is an economical need, not a moral need only.

This has nothing to do with being a Mexican or American, it has to do with being honest or not, thinking of doing a long lasting business or just a short lived fraud. Honesty is a must in commerce, not only a moral thing to do.

Why it has nothing to do with nationality? Because a lot of frauds are being done against Americans by Americans, who learned the Mexican bad ways; most of Ejido Mazatlan members are AMERICAN CITYZENS, California Residents, they have their bank accounts in San Diego California.

Gabriel Esquivel, one of the Ejido´s Mazatlan founder and main crook, father to Enrique Esquivel, and Oscar Salazar, was a USA citizen, who fought for the USA in Korea, then he found it easy to just steal from Mexico by selling Ejido land that he got for free; now his sons also American Citizens with bank accounts in a Chula Vista Wells Fargo Bank, mastered his ways and just keep doing it.

The same story is repeated all over Baja, Ejidos are created by Americans who master in corruption and know how to steal money from Americans. I don’t say that it is only Americans, of course there are a lot of Mexicans involved, but the teachers were Mexican Americans.

The Punta Banda fraud case who created so much mistrust between Mexicans and Americans, was elaborated between an American developer, together with a Mexican Ejido chief; I told the legal consequences to the American Consulate people, before it happened, but they believing more in corruption, choose to believe the Baja Governor´s cousin and Punta Banda developer, a Baja Governor, born in San Diego California by the way, you know the rest.
We are just too intermixed, to believe that Mexico is a corrupt place, because the people executing the corruption acts, are Mexicans and Americans together; the people acting as real estate agents in Baja, are mostly Americans and they are the ones who knowing that a place has problems, sell to Americans hiding the facts.
That means that we have to find a solution together and I believe that the only way to do it, is to act in a honest way with no exceptions; to start, we have to expose the frauds so no more buyers get caught by the bad guys, Mexicans or Americans or both together; this will expose the bandits and create trust; they are hurting both countries and people, not only Americans.
To buy in Baja is difficult today, is must not be that way, but it is, yes, but it is no impossible if you know what you are doing; you can even make a good business; remember that where things are difficult, the ignorant go away, leaving the business to the smart and informed people.

ramuma53 - 6-27-2011 at 09:35 AM

Baja1943
Unless you find someone who I represent in court, charging him, you are not expressing yourself in a true way.

About the pitfalls of Mexican land ownership, I advise you on how to protect yourself from the pitfalls created by people who do not want to expose the fact, that the Rosarito´s area, has property titles problems, that they should correct, instead of passing them over to the American buyer.

I also advise you on how to find the legal ownership, not only the pitfalls, I advise you, on how not to fall in to the pit, because that is the objective, not to avoid buying in Baja, but to avoid falling in to a pit created to catch you.

Mexican land ownership is different from other countries land ownership, because it has leftovers from a populist era that almost bankrupted Mexico.
Retiring Americans are coming to Baja and nothing will stop them, Mexicans are going to America to work also, we are just exchanging populations; both have problems with the facts, but both countries will correct them in time, I am only starting the process.

ramuma53 - 6-27-2011 at 09:37 AM

Cypress
If you do not want to go in to the problems of land ownership, that is the safe way to do untill it becomes easy and safe.

baja1943 - 6-27-2011 at 10:05 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ramuma53
Baja1943
Unless you find someone who I represent in court, charging him, you are not expressing yourself in a true way.

About the pitfalls of Mexican land ownership, I advise you on how to protect yourself from the pitfalls created by people who do not want to expose the fact, that the Rosarito´s area, has property titles problems, that they should correct, instead of passing them over to the American buyer.

I also advise you on how to find the legal ownership, not only the pitfalls, I advise you, on how not to fall in to the pit, because that is the objective, not to avoid buying in Baja, but to avoid falling in to a pit created to catch you.

Mexican land ownership is different from other countries land ownership, because it has leftovers from a populist era that almost bankrupted Mexico.
Retiring Americans are coming to Baja and nothing will stop them, Mexicans are going to America to work also, we are just exchanging populations; both have problems with the facts, but both countries will correct them in time, I am only starting the process.
You silver-tongued devil:lol::lol::lol:

drarroyo - 6-27-2011 at 10:16 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cypress
Why is it so complicated to buy property in Baja? :lol:


I found absolutely nothing complicated at all.
Different, yes. Some people just don't have the capability to think outside the box. And don't understand the concept ... homework.

wessongroup - 6-27-2011 at 11:58 AM

Found this through online searches of Mexico's history ... don't know how accurate this translation is.. but, has some interesting history ... on the area

If any inaccurate statements are found, please note... with post..

Encyclopedia of the Municipalities of Mexico
STATE OF BAJA CALIFORNIA

PLAYAS DE ROSARITO

http://tinyurl.com/3hxso7z

jenny.navarrette - 6-27-2011 at 12:25 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by drarroyo
I found absolutely nothing complicated at all.
Different, yes. Some people just don't have the capability to think outside the box. And don't understand the concept ... homework.


Please explain to us the steps you took to purchase real estate safely in Baja. A simple list will suffice, you know, 1...2...3...etc.

Thanks in advance, we look forward to hearing from someone who understands the concept and does the homeworkd.

baja1943 - 6-27-2011 at 12:28 PM

Quote:
http://tinyurl.com/3hxso7z
Geez, and beneath the rubble slid out Robin Hood aka Ramuma43 the savior of gullible gringos and caguamas. :lol:

drarroyo - 6-27-2011 at 12:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jenny.navarrette
Quote:
Originally posted by drarroyo
I found absolutely nothing complicated at all.
Different, yes. Some people just don't have the capability to think outside the box. And don't understand the concept ... homework.


Please explain to us the steps you took to purchase real estate safely in Baja. A simple list will suffice, you know, 1...2...3...etc.

Thanks in advance, we look forward to hearing from someone who understands the concept and does the homeworkd.


the second you list all previous aliases (sp) on this board.
but just cause I'm a good guy... I'll give you one step
1. avoid real estate agents (title co. is your friend. pick the wrong title co... that's on you)

your turn

drarroyo - 6-27-2011 at 12:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jenny.navarrette

Please explain to us the steps you took to purchase real estate safely in Baja. A simple list will suffice, you know, 1...2...3...etc.

Thanks in advance, we look forward to hearing from someone who understands the concept and does the homeworkd.


c'mon now. sit down and take a deep breath and think about this...
do you SERIOUSLY think I'd indulge you?? don't bogart that joint yo

baja1943 - 6-27-2011 at 12:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by drarroyo

I'll give you one step
1. avoid real estate agents (title co. is your friend)

your turn
Title co. in mexico? You would have to be really gullible to buy this. http://tinyurl.com/3hzbbcp

[Edited on 6-27-2011 by baja1943]

drarroyo - 6-27-2011 at 12:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by baja1943
Quote:
Originally posted by drarroyo

I'll give you one step
1. avoid real estate agents (title co. is your friend. pick the wrong title co... that's on you)

your turn
Title co. in mexico? You would have to be really gullible to buy this. http://tinyurl.com/3hzbbcp


:lol::lol::lol: Title 'Insurance' bbbaaaaaasahahaha yea. you're right!! you'd have to be gullible alright!! hahahahahah

[Edited on 6-27-2011 by drarroyo]

baja1943 - 6-27-2011 at 01:17 PM

You forgot to take your meds dude.

drarroyo - 6-27-2011 at 01:19 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by baja1943
You forgot to take your meds dude.


Jen. I'm inhaling some right now! :lol:

jenny.navarrette - 6-27-2011 at 02:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by drarroyo
just cause I'm a good guy... I'll give you one step
1. avoid real estate agents (title co. is your friend. pick the wrong title co... that's on you)


So then, you don't want to dazzle us with your brillance and enlighten all the people reading this thread who are hoping to find out how to purchase property safely in Mexico? You're going to keep it all to yourself?

By the way, just for your information, there are no title companies in Mexico. I suppose you knew that, but was just testing to see if anybody was reading your comments. If you do not believe me, ask ramuma to name a Mexican title company.

drarroyo - 6-27-2011 at 02:26 PM

the PROBLEM is ... you could be become a neighbour!!! YIKES!!!

and who mentioned anything about brilliance!!??
actually here's step 2. cause I'm a great guy :lol: (similar advice I've offered you) ....
2. take a deep breath.

:lol::lol:

[Edited on 6-27-2011 by drarroyo]

drarroyo - 6-27-2011 at 02:34 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jenny.navarrette


By the way, just for your information, there are no title companies in Mexico.


semantics. I am probably using the wrong term there. Thanx for the heads up.

drarroyo - 6-27-2011 at 02:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jenny.navarrette
So then, you don't want to dazzle us with your brillance and enlighten all the people reading this thread who are hoping to find out how to purchase property safely in Mexico?


This is SO hilarious! THANK YOU!!! ... now you want to help the good people here to purchase property in Mexico?
'scuse me while I pick myself up off the floor !! HAHA

JoeJustJoe - 6-27-2011 at 03:05 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jenny.navarrette
Quote:
Originally posted by drarroyo
just cause I'm a good guy... I'll give you one step
1. avoid real estate agents (title co. is your friend. pick the wrong title co... that's on you)


So then, you don't want to dazzle us with your brillance and enlighten all the people reading this thread who are hoping to find out how to purchase property safely in Mexico? You're going to keep it all to yourself?

By the way, just for your information, there are no title companies in Mexico. I suppose you knew that, but was just testing to see if anybody was reading your comments. If you do not believe me, ask ramuma to name a Mexican title company.


Yeah but isn't there US title insurance companies that will insure property you buy in Mexico?

Wait why am I asking you Jenny/Arrowhead/Fulano/Baja1943?

Jenny you're a self appointed "fire alarm" warning everybody you can about the so-called dangers of Mexico especially Mexican real estate, but I for one don't believe one word you say because you have an anti-Mexico/Mexican agenda.

I rather ask Ramuma any real estate question because he knows, way way way more about real estate matters in Mexico than you do Jenny.

You can tell when Jenny is upset she/he brings out the trolls like Baja143 to troll and insult anybody that dares to go against Jenny/Arrowhead/Fulano/Baja anti-Mexican agenda.

jenny.navarrette - 6-27-2011 at 03:28 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by drarroyo
semantics. I am probably using the wrong term there. Thanx for the heads up.


That's OK, we can all wait until you think of the right term for the [whatchamacallit] that you use instead of a real estate agent to safely purchase real estate in Baja. Please let us know when you think of the right term. I imagine there are many people waiting for you to clarify it.

Perhaps if you put down that bong it will come back to you.

drarroyo - 6-27-2011 at 03:44 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by baja1943
Title ins. in Mex. research it marooon. Nuf said. Stick with your motif about sexual perversion on OT.


agreed! Title 'insurance' is a crock!! no arguments there.
Jen. reference my post re indulgence. hellooo

drarroyo - 6-27-2011 at 03:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by baja1943
Title ins. in Mex. research it marooon. Nuf said. Stick with your motif about sexual perversion on OT.


now you're chastising me for defending alternative lifestyles??
ok. I'm done. (sidenote: let's hear it for the state of NY!! Yes we can!)

Woooosh - 6-27-2011 at 04:07 PM

What's with the fun time? Just go back towards the beginning of this thread when Ramuna53 gives all the answers at least once. Why should he have to type it again on his own thread? Just sayin...

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

Did you know the sytem changes "circle J*rk" to "fun time" . lol

[Edited on 6-27-2011 by Woooosh]

ramuma53 - 6-27-2011 at 04:49 PM

wessongroup
I found only one inexact item, the Joaquin Machado Valdes title was issued in 1879 not 1885, in 1885, was the time when they failed to demostrate that they had enough people living at the place and was actually voided.

ramuma53 - 6-27-2011 at 05:09 PM

jenny.navarrette

Please explain to us the steps you took to purchase real estate safely in Baja. A simple list will suffice, you know, 1...2...3...etc.

Thanks in advance, we look forward to hearing from someone who understands the concept and does the homeworkd.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1.- Look for the place you like and if it is for sale.

2.- Ask for the Public Registry listing to start your own due diligence, or specifically ask the profesinal to show you the documents that you need to convince yourself, do not accept excuses or legalloid talk about you not needing it.

3.- Go to the Public Registry and se from where that annotation come and look for it and if it refer to another do it again until you find one that is a National Land title.
If you find legal procedures and a judge ruling, you have to go to where the ruling affect another listing or if you find a ¨Prescripcion¨ of any kind, just forget about the place because that mean, that they were squatters and just asked the judge to recognize their possession not their property and no judge can give away National Land.
Remember that you cannot acquire National land by Prescripcion or embargo or any other way but through a National Land title.
If you find that it comes from an Ejido, ask the Agrarian Public Registry is the sale was legal in writing; it may be Ejido town land and may, just may be legal but I recommend you not to buy, because all the Baja Ejidos have Virtual executions and are wrong from the start, only a few have corrected their problems, like Primo Tapia.
If you find a Colonial title, even if it say property title, just look on the title´s back side and you will find a legend, saying that you have to obey the Colonial Land law and just walk away, because you cannot do it.

4.- If you really want the property, use the fact that it has legal defects, to acquire it dirt cheap and save your money, because you will need every penny, to legalize the property and maybe even to legally buy it from the National Land office.
5.- If you find the National land title at the bottom of the legal chain, see if it was issued on the safe periods and if it was issued on the wrong periods, do the same as if it doesn’t have a legal title.
6.- If they get angry because you question their title, walk away, you are the buyer and can go any place, don´t buy their excuses or you will end up losing your money and buying a bunch of problems.

[Edited on 6-28-2011 by ramuma53]

jenny.navarrette - 6-27-2011 at 05:25 PM

Rafael, se le olvidó el primer paso: aprender a leer y hablar español.
:lol:

drarroyo - 6-27-2011 at 05:29 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jenny.navarrette
Rafael, se le olvidó el primer paso: aprender a leer y hablar español.
:lol:


not neccessarily

ramuma53 - 6-27-2011 at 05:33 PM

JoeJustJoe
There are no Mexican title insurers, but some crooks are offering in house title insurance like La Joya del mar; there, if a title failure occur, the company will just run or go bankrupt and with them the in house title insurance; you won’t find that kind of fraud any other place in the world; why would you believe it in Rosarito Beach???.
But you have Re insurers like First American Title Insurance or Stewart Title Insurance; most of the others are just intermediaries to the Re insurers.
The problem I have found with them is that they issue title insurance just too easy because that is their business, without really checking the title legal chain to the bottom; instead they protect themselves with fine print and I think that is way of charging the land owner without really protecting the buyer, dishonesty at the worst case. They make the buyer believe that he is insured against any defect on the title, but that is not the case.
Just look at Maravia property near La Paz, they claim to have title insurance and they even show a title insurance, but at the bottom of the title chain, you will find a Colonial title on the property they claim is theirs; I can say that, it is National Land.

jenny.navarrette - 6-27-2011 at 05:47 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ramuma53
JoeJustJoe
There are no Mexican title insurers, but some crooks are offering in house title insurance like La Joya del mar; there, if a title failure occur, the company will just run or go bankrupt and with them the in house title insurance;


Rafael, if you actually READ those Mexican "Title Insurance" policies, you will see they are NOT title insurance. The company only agrees to DEFEND your title in court, not indemnify the buyer from losses. It is like a prepaid attorney's fee. If the buyer loses the lawsuit and his property is gone, it's his tough luck.

It's just another fraud foisted on US buyers by the Mexican real estate industry and their gringo lacky salesmen.

DENNIS - 6-27-2011 at 05:53 PM

Let's hear it for Jenny. RAH RAH RAH Give'em hell. :yes:

jenny.navarrette - 6-27-2011 at 06:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by JoeJustJoe
Yeah but isn't there US title insurance companies that will insure property you buy in Mexico?


Nope.

drarroyo - 6-27-2011 at 06:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by jenny.navarrette

It's just another fraud foisted on US buyers by the Mexican real estate industry and their gringo lacky salesmen.


and those silly enuf to fall for it (read HOMEWORK!!) deserve the impending misery.

MitchMan - 6-27-2011 at 07:21 PM

fwiw, I took a real estate law class from a real estate oriented judge in Orange County, CA and he said that title insurance policies are in essence an enumeration of exceptions against the land owner wherein the the title insurance company can claim no coverage provided.

ramuma53 is essentially saying the same thing.

JoeJustJoe - 6-28-2011 at 01:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ramuma53
JoeJustJoe
There are no Mexican title insurers, but some crooks are offering in house title insurance like La Joya del mar; there, if a title failure occur, the company will just run or go bankrupt and with them the in house title insurance; you won’t find that kind of fraud any other place in the world; why would you believe it in Rosarito Beach???.
But you have Re insurers like First American Title Insurance or Stewart Title Insurance; most of the others are just intermediaries to the Re insurers.
The problem I have found with them is that they issue title insurance just too easy because that is their business, without really checking the title legal chain to the bottom; instead they protect themselves with fine print and I think that is way of charging the land owner without really protecting the buyer, dishonesty at the worst case. They make the buyer believe that he is insured against any defect on the title, but that is not the case.
Just look at Maravia property near La Paz, they claim to have title insurance and they even show a title insurance, but at the bottom of the title chain, you will find a Colonial title on the property they claim is theirs; I can say that, it is National Land.



Thanks Ramuma for answering my question, because I knew a few US companies were offering title insurance in Mexico, and I was wondering how it works.

I of course also read things from Jenny too on Mexican real estate where he/she claims there is no such thing as a bank trust( Fideicomiso) or Title insurance in Mexico. But I also knew they had changes in the Constitution from 1917 regarding real estate in 1994 and I wasn't sure what Jenny was trying to pull a fast one without telling the whole story.

But if you tell me something Ramuma I'm more apt to believe it.

I also understand laws in Mexico are changing fast and I remember something about the PAN party was trying to lower costs for Americans by trying to do away with the need for foreigners in the border and coastal areas to purchase real estate throught a fideicomiso trust. Do you know what happened to that idea or law?

Here is what I was thinking about when I asked the title insurance question:
_________________________



U.S. Title companies insure foregners in Mexico

The same title insurance coverage you purchased on your home in the U.S. is available in Mexico. First American and Stewart Title Insurance companies, are two of the largest title insurance underwriters in the world and they welcome your business in Mexico.
According to Robert Calamari, President of Global Title and issuing agent for First American in Mexico : "We have determined that our risk, as underwriters on Mexican property, is not much greater than insuring property in the United States. Assuming the same due diligence standards in researching the property are met".
In assuring safe transfer of title in Mexico, the same protocol followed by U.S. escrow officers is adhered too. Verification that the seller and title holder are one and the same, certification that the property is free of: creditor liens, mechanical liens, tax liens, and utility department liens. Most important, a 50 year study of the property's history to assure that each transfer of title was done in accordance with federal and state laws.
To buy coastal property, as a foreigner, for personal use (the entire Baja peninsula is considered coastal property), you must do so in a living trust. If you are buying for commercial purposes, a 100% foreign owned Mexican corporation can allow fee simple transfer of property title to foreign owned corporations.. Either method provides the benefits of ownership: Resale, succession of rights to heirs in perpetuity, or commercial use.

http://www.mexicomatters.net/mexicorealestate/06_propertytit...

ramuma53 - 6-28-2011 at 11:52 AM

bajaeng
It is an administrative case in the Direccion Adjunta de Terrenos Nacionales in Mexico city, file number 142525.
There, IRMSA is asking for the title to be re issued to Rosendo Victorio Victorio with copy to the Federal Police against La Puerta del Mar for being squaters in National Land, taking advantage of the fact that, temporally, the land has no legal title.

The desk for the national land office is in the SRA federal office in Mexicali B.C.

There, for sure, they will show you the file I gave you and explain the inevitability of the issuing of a new title that cover the Puerta del Mar land lot and that mean, that the Federal Government will take it from Puerta del Mar, eviciting any person they find there and then give it back to Rosendo Vicotrio and he to IRMSA; just another inevitable Punta Banda.

ramuma53 - 6-28-2011 at 12:31 PM

JoeJustJoe
A fideicomiso is a contract between a foreigner, a land owner and a bank, where the land owner give the property to the bank to hold for the life of the fideicomiso and the bank hold it giving the use to the foreigner.
That way, you do not have to trust the land owner honesty, instead you trust the bank.
If a Fiedeicomiso is well done, it is inexpugnable and will really protect you, because in case of any problem you sue a bank who cannot run and disappear with your money.
It works as long as it is designed for your protection, but the problem exist, that usually the foreigner just forget about it and just let the developer do it for him; remember that the fideicomiso is there to protect you against any problem that comes from the owner or developer, you trust the wolf with the chicken.
When PAN took over the government, they used the land legality problem as a political campaign flag, but when they took over the government, found the problem to profitable for them and instead of correcting it, they started the big cover up.
When they took over the government, Hector Castellanos Muñoz, one of the main PAN directives, asked me to expose the fraud against National land along the Tijuana Ensenada Corridor, he asked me to give talks in front of the Tijuana Major Hector Osuna Jaime and all the public notaries; I did it in 1996 at the Tijuana city Government palace; then at the Commerce Chamber in Tijuana for all the Real Estate agents and public registry employees.
Then asked me to take Carlos Reynoso Nuño, the main governor Ernesto Ruffo adviser to Mexico City to bring back all the legal proof; the Estate government paid all the expenses.
I did it and Brought back every legal paper needed; then they showed everything to the governor and he just decided to cover up the problem instead of correcting it; he had to many properties and his relatives several developments, one of them Punta Banda.
Instead of correcting the problem and continue to expose the fraud, they allied the Estate government with the developers and started to cover up everything, modifying the Public Registry with the excuse that they will digitalize it.
They just forgot one main fact, you can cover it up, but the problem is still there, because National Land cannot be acquired any other way but through a National Land title and the old constitution violating titles were a bad argument, not sustainable against National property.
Punta Banda exploded on the hands of the governor´s cousin and other cases started to fall in court in favor of National Land.
The main advocate for the cover up has been Hugo Torres Chavert and the PAN party, tied with Ejido Mazatlan, who is in charge of collecting the money.
Today, PAN party is going out of office, Hugo Torres Chavert is holding a lot of vacant developments and Ejido Mazatlan continue to get money from every person they can.

ramuma53 - 6-28-2011 at 12:33 PM

bajaeng
if you want to look at it youself, just go to the SRA office and ask for the file number (better do it in spanish) there you will see the actual state for that file.
Also I can publish here one of the papers just put in by IRMSA explaining the problem and asking for the title to be re issued, received by the National Land office.

jenny.navarrette - 6-28-2011 at 12:38 PM

The title held in a fideicomiso is still subject to whatever defects were with the seller. If the land had problems before an American bought it, it will still have the same problems when held in a fideicomiso. The bank guarantees nothing.

Cypress - 6-28-2011 at 01:19 PM

Bottom line. Buy at your own risk. That's the way it's been and that's the way it is. No biggee, unless you actually think you own the property.;)

ramuma53 - 6-28-2011 at 03:44 PM

Jenny
The bank receive the land in a Fideicomiso traslativo de dominio , that in fact make him the land owner and that way, you have a bank as responsible, not a guy who can run, of course that does not guarantee that a problem may not explode, but the bank, to make the fideicomiso, make a title study and if the bank´s attorneys are smart (I Know???) they would catch any title problem, because at the end of the day, the bank will end being the bad title owner and is liable for the money invested.
Also, you can not own land any other way.

oladulce - 6-29-2011 at 08:06 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ramuma53

...BASED ON NATIONAL LAND PRIVATE PROPERTY TITLES ISSUED ON THE PERIOD 1918 TO 1962 AND FROM 1968 TO DATE ARE COMPLETELY SAFE AND I HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE OF THOSE LOSE A LEGAL BATTLE, INCLUDING THE PUNTA BANDA FIASCO WAS WON BY ONE OF THOSE.


What does a "National Land Private Property Title" look like? One or several pages in length? What should it say in the title of the document and what signature and stamps should it include?

ramuma53 - 7-3-2011 at 12:02 PM

oladulce
The titles are usually with a gray watermark printed on security paper
First of all, it has the Mexico´s national symbol, an eagle surrounded by Estados Unidos Mexicanos and at the bottom of the seal, Secretaria de la Reforma Agraria.
Then on the right side a file number and a title number below.
The main text start with the SRA secretary name with all the law articles the title issuing is based on.
Here please check that it does not say issued on base to the Colonial law, because then we have a Colonial title that is worthless now.
Then it say on big letters TITULO DE PROPIEDAD or property title
Then it say the name of the owner and the name of the property if the property have a name.
It give you the area in Hectares like 00-00-00 Has. that format you can turn it to m2 by just eliminating the - and substituting the has. by m2.
Then the exact location where the land is located including the astronomical coordinates citing each neighbor side by side.
Then the date the title was issued
Then 4 signatures
The Reforma Agraria Secretary signing in the Mexico´s President name.
(Asuntos agrarios ) agrarian issues sub secretary.
(Dir Gral de asuntos Agrarios) agrarian issues general director.
(Director de Terrenos Nacionales) National land director
Concerning the signatures, since those documents are signed by the 1000s every day, the signatures are seals and sometimes it show it is a seal, but do not worry about this fact, I mention it because some people when they see it and tart saying it is a forgery based on the way the signatures look.
The at the back of the title, please check that IT DOES NOT SAY, BASED ON THE COLONIAL LAND AND SUBJECTED TO THE COLONIAL LAW LIMITATIONS.
It should start by saying that the nation reserve all the time the right to what is found underground. (You own what is on the land and the surface but not the underground)
Then it say what public registries the title should be registered
Registro Agrario Nacional, Direccion de Terrenos Nacionales and the city where the land is located, public registry (This show you the fact, that only the public registry, is not enough, to demonstrate property in Mexico).
This also tells you that it is not an easy thing to make a falsification of one of those documents.
Then it tell you a list of all the areas excluded from your title, like Federal zones and right of way.
The it show you where in the Terrenos Nacionales registry is registered your title, giving you the scripture number, book number and date.
Then it follow with the same data for Registro Agrario Nacional
The it leaves a blank that must be occupied with the data for the local public registry and cadastral authority.

ramuma53 - 7-3-2011 at 12:29 PM

Jenny.navarrete
Fideicomisos traslativos de dominio are the kind of fideicomiso an American need to be part of to be able to have security on his investment.
A fideicomiso is a contract (some people may argue this fact, but it is doctrinal already favoring this interpretation).
This contract is a contract where the owner give away the property to the financial intermediary named fiduciario, the owner is called fideicomitente and the American is called Fideicomisario.
Yes, the bank, as the real land owner has all the responsibilities of the owner, among them defending the land in court in case of any legal problem; this of course does not guarantee you anything, because if the financial intermediary did not do its due diligence in an appropriate way, it may lose and the other party may evict you at the end.
A fideicomiso is not a guarantee against land problems, much less when it is against a National Title; it only provides you with a supposedly good legal representation.
It is a bypass to the Constitutional prohibition to foreigners owning property on the forbidden strips on the international borders and the coast lines.
It is a contract and this fact is important, because you are hiring a financial intermediary to act as the fiduciary, and this service provider is going to be your representation in court; would you leave the choice of financial intermediary to the land owner? Would you leave him the choice of who will fight for YOU????.
Also, don´t think only a bank can be a financial intermediary, because it must be a financial intermediary, and there are several kind of those, banks are only one of those:
Banks, SOFOLES, SOFOMES are financial intermediaries who can draw a fideicomiso.
That mean, that you can shop around and ask who is the best at doing their job, because the banks are not always the best choice, but they are always the most expensive choice.
This mean, that you are going to trust someone to buy your property, not the original owner of course, because he cannot by law give you the property, but a financial institution and you have to find your best option, based on their past performance.
To be able to provide a good service, a financial intermediary, must have a capable team of professionals, who can not only defend you in court, but to in the first place, study the property and advise you when not to enter in to a fideicomiso when the property has no clear title chain and is not legally based on a national Land title; they must avoid the situations that will take you and them to court, not only defend you after the problems exploded.
I think that one of the main problems in Baja, is that the American buyer, does not understand how to use a fideicomiso in his best benefit.
Fideicomisos were designed to protect the American buyer, but they are expensive because they are very complex and require a financial institution to have a capable legal team and that sole fact is not easy.

BajaGringo - 7-3-2011 at 12:39 PM

If you read Spanish here is a great page full of information, including an example of a National Land Title:

Registro Agrario Nacional - Grupos Documentales

wessongroup - 7-3-2011 at 01:11 PM

Super

ramuma53 - 7-3-2011 at 10:39 PM

BajaGringo
Right on the spot

ramuma53 - 7-7-2011 at 06:40 PM

Concerning fideicomisos
A fideicomiso start in the Roman Law, then got enriched up to Common Law, the word has it roots in FIDUCIA, that means to trust, to have faith or to have confidence.

A person transfer property of something to an other entity in the confidence that he will manage it in an honest way, assuring a contract will be fulfilled.
The parties included in a Fideicomiso are:
Fiduciario is the trusted institution that holds the goods and assures that the contract will be fulfilled as ordered. Bank, SOFOM etc.
Fideicomitente the person who give the good to the Fiduciario to hold, assuring that he will fulfill the contract, usually the land owner
Fideicomisario is the person who receives the assurance that the contract will be fulfilled, usually the American buyer
The main problem in Mexico´s Real Estate transactions, is not the lack of laws, it is the fact that the existing laws are not being used to really protect the buyer.

Jenny.navarete say that the fideicomiso exist only to defend you in court and he or she is partially right, but it is not only for that, you can use the fideicomiso to really protect yourself, it is a matter of making a contract that really protect you, the Fiduciary will assure that the contract is fulfilled.

The problem is that the American buyer trusts the wolf with the guarding of the chicken, you are allowing and signing a Fideicomiso contract that does not fully protect your investment.

The Fiduciary only obey the contract, it only makes sure that the contract gets fulfilled, they do not draw the contract, you and the seller do.

If you accept a fideicomiso that only obligate the Fiduciary to defend you if a title defect is found, that is what the Fiduciary is going to do, not a bit more, but not because the fideicomiso cannot do more.

It can get property from the seller and hold it untill the fiedicomiso verify that no title defects are found and in case a defect is found, it can sell that collateral to compensate you fully, but I bet no seller is offering you one of those.:fire:

If you make a fideicomiso contract that includes a clause that obligate the seller to give collateral property in case a title flaw is found, it will happen that way plus some added benefits.

To draw from that collateral if a title flaw is found, the fideicomiso does not need to go to court to grab and sell that collateral property, the Fiduciary can do it next day, without even give notice to the seller; it is only a matter of drawing the fideicomiso that way.

In other words, you have the tools to protect yourself right now, no need for new laws, just do not accept a contract that does not protect your investment fully, after all, it is a contract, just use it to its full force to protect yourself, do not accept the fieicomiso they hand you already made.

I know that you were doing it, because you thought that the fideicomiso was only to allow you to buy property in Mexico, but a fideicomiso is much more than that, it is a contract designed to protect you, just make it protect you fully, not only for some particular things that is a convenience for the seller only, they are using it to avoid being sued or to have toprotect you in court after a problem explode.:light:

[Edited on 7-8-2011 by ramuma53]

[Edited on 7-8-2011 by ramuma53]

ramuma53 - 7-10-2011 at 05:08 PM

As an Example
When you find a property you like, to live your golden years, get thought, you know complex problems exist and you know the sellers and Real Estate agents have been lying to the American buyer for a long time.
Ask for a Fideicomiso that as first mission has to investigate the title and go to the roots, to the first National Land Title where as is obligated by law, it came out of National Land property becoming Private property.
Ask for collateral from the seller to become guarantee in case a flaw is found and the real estate deal goes down, including coverage for all your expenses, that guarantee has to go in to a guarantee fideicomiso and explain every way you can be harmed if a flaw is found even after some years and of course ask to be covered for a flaw in the bank procedures in finding the flaw. The collateral property must be enough to cover your damages, because you cannot touch the bank property, only what is included in the fideicomiso.
This plus the usual holding of the property for 50 years to allow you as foreigner to buy the property.
Also, decide with the seller what is going to happen after the 50 years, because it may go back to the seller or you may decide something else, but if you do not say anything it will go back.
The seller will not want to do this and some people may advise you, that it is not being done that way, but the bank as trusted party, will have no objection to any condition you include and the bank will make sure it gets fulfilled exactly and you will not have to sue any party if something goes wrong.

With a contract fideicomiso and guarantee fideicomiso I do not see how you can sustain any damage.:light:

Woooosh - 7-25-2011 at 08:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bajaeng
Interesting development with my interactions with real estate places who have listings in Puerta del Mar: I have asked them directly about possible problems involving a lawsuit based on national land title concerns ... they were vigorously saying there are no problems and there are no pending lawsuits, but when I gave them the case number that ramuna shared, they have suddenly gotten very quiet and I haven't heard a word from them since. Even from their highly respected Notario .... hmmmm

That 507710 case number for the SRA file of Rancho Costa Azul by Mr. Jorge Duran is golden. When presented with the same scenario for the land title at Playa Bonita Condos in Rosarito Beach, their lawyer (and Rosarito AMPI President) pulled the sale listing and now they are only planning to rent them (until Mr. Duran kicks their thieving butts off his land I would presume). I believe the case has been "in an administrative process" for so long- many have started to ignore his rights, or presumed they has expired? It is interesting and I too do not fully understand how an administrative case can take so long to complete and yet be so important to the development process of the city of Rosarito.

I have done web searches and checked the SRA website, but cannot find a PDF or scan of SRA File # 507710 to download and print out.


[Edited on 7-25-2011 by Woooosh]

MitchMan - 7-25-2011 at 09:47 AM

ramuma53,
Do you have any insight as to Santander bank's or Banorte bank's or Bancomer bank's competence as fiduciarios?

[Edited on 7-25-2011 by MitchMan]

wessongroup - 7-25-2011 at 10:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Woooosh
Quote:
Originally posted by bajaeng
Interesting development with my interactions with real estate places who have listings in Puerta del Mar: I have asked them directly about possible problems involving a lawsuit based on national land title concerns ... they were vigorously saying there are no problems and there are no pending lawsuits, but when I gave them the case number that ramuna shared, they have suddenly gotten very quiet and I haven't heard a word from them since. Even from their highly respected Notario .... hmmmm

That 507710 case number for the SRA file of Rancho Costa Azul by Mr. Jorge Duran is golden. When presented with the same scenario for the land title at Playa Bonita Condos in Rosarito Beach, their lawyer (and Rosarito AMPI President) pulled the sale listing and now they are only planning to rent them (until Mr. Duran kicks their thieving butts off his land I would presume). I believe the case has been "in an administrative process" for so long- many have started to ignore his rights, or presumed they has expired? It is interesting and I too do not fully understand how an administrative case can take so long to complete and yet be so important to the development process of the city of Rosarito.

I have done web searches and checked the SRA website, but cannot find a PDF or scan of SRA File # 507710 to download and print out.


[Edited on 7-25-2011 by Woooosh]


There are "records" then there are "RECORDS"..... appears you have found one they® would really rather forget...

Some super work on this board to make the process of purchasing real estate... SOB a bit clearer ... and with a rather simple path to follow... in step wise fashion...

Thanks to all who have helped.. get a functional outline on how to.... once again BN comes through... pretty good function for a place where one can glean so much information and knowledge... :):)

MitchMan - 7-25-2011 at 10:32 AM

I have saved every page of this thread on my hard drive. It's golden.

GLNaeve - 7-25-2011 at 10:47 AM

Sir,
I am joining the discussion late.
Has there been a discussioin of the topic of Profepa cases regarding the encroachment of real property on to or into the federal zone? Especially with the "re-calculation" of the Federal zone. Specifically in the Mulege, Playa el Coyote? If this type of discussion taken place, I will reserach the past posts.
Back gound: Playa el Coyote, BCS, the area has 8 residence adjacent to the Fedral Zone. In September 2008, Profepa redrew the federal zone (inland) thus now residence now encorach on the Federal Zone and citations were issued as per the maritime federal zone and environmental impact procedures.

The majority of the citiation were recended by Governmental Agency, two were not recended. The two citation were challenged in the Federal Constitutional Court in Culiacan, Sinaloa via Nullification Law suit and have been reconfirmed against the property.

Is there an individual that you know of who I can contact to discuss the issues? (Each fine is approximatley $79K MX pesos.)

Thanks for your time and effort.
I wait your thoughts and perhaps some direction to an individual for further discussion. I am located in Los Angeles, California and the residence is located in the Mulege BCS area.
Gary

wessongroup - 7-25-2011 at 02:09 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by MitchMan
I have saved every page of this thread on my hard drive. It's golden.


Ditto's...

ramuma53 - 7-30-2011 at 04:15 PM

GLNaeve

GLNaeve
I know about the problem because I own Buenaventura, Requeson, La perlita and Armenta property in Bahia concepcion and the same people did the Federal Zone re drawing, but let me explain a bit about the procedure needed to do that.

First, Mexican constitution forbid authority to just grab property from Private Property owners, it require that a legal and able court know about the case and the owner citated to court, then a legal rulling affecting the property must be issued and the owner allowed every legal oportunity to deffend himself. It is a constitutional right, no way arround it.

When that Federal Zone people, redrew the Federal zone boundaries, they affected private property, without the legal procedure and respect to the owners, who were derpived of their property without legal procedure allowing them to deffend theirselves.

That mean, that the land owners can ask for Federal Law protection known as an Amparo to retain their property, but they have only 15 working days after they know of the Federal Zone redrawing to do it.

The good part is that since the Federal Zone did not served the legal citation, the owners do not legally know and they can ask for the Amparo at any time now.

On the side, the Federal zone in Bahia concepcion is a joke, in most of the Mexican Coastal line, the Federal Zone monuments are a monument to exact sciences, you can relly on them to have an exact position to 1 mm and we use them as landmarks in topoghraphical works, but in Bahia concepcion and South Baja, they just took the easy way and just walked along the easyest ways putting the monuments on the easiest spot; in some places, the monument is 40 mts inland and they did not respected the 1992 Federal Zone definition, that actually is:
Where and only if the coast has a beach, if and only if the contiguous to the beach solid ground has a slope of less than 30 degrees, the Federal Zone will be located on the solid ground and measured as a strip measuring 20 mts.
That mean, that when the coas is a clif with a more than 30 degrees slope, there are no Federal Zone.

Please be carefull when you ask for the amparo and say that you know about the Federal Zone movement since less than 15 days. If you say that you know for more than 15 days it would be counsented acts and the amparo would be denied and the property lost forever.
There is no other way to do this, because the Federal zone line has already been moved, violating the Private Property owner´s Constitutional rights.

ramuma53 - 7-30-2011 at 04:42 PM

bajaeng
Quintana Roo is a new estate, but they have old titles the same as Baja, the difference is that the Estate government asked for the national land office to review the property rights and issue the needed titles, cooperating with the Federal Government to do that.

In contrast, Baja governor Ruffo Appel, opposed the national land office and asked for the national land delegation to be removed from the Estate.
Puebla Estate had a Private property rights problem similar to Baja Estate, and the National Land office dispatched delegation to Baja and Puebla at the same time in 1992, in Puebla more than 10,000 National Land titles were issued, correcting the estate problem while in Baja only 3 that I know were issued because of the Estate opposition, then PAN political party took the Federal government, they did the same in a Federal level, blocking the National Land office from issuing National land titles and trying to hide the national land property; the consequences you know.
That national land program must be re initiated in Baja to correct the problem, every government official know it but they are trying to hide it, the Este government know about it, but since they have been graving national land property by other means for 20 years now, they do not want the National Land office to come and tell them that they are not the owners.
Actually they excavated their own grave, because in 1992 the National land prices were about $1000 pesos for 10,000 m2, then they elevated the cadastral price and now the price for federal land is about $1000 per m2, they elevated the National land price 10,000 times and now they will have to pay for the land they graved at actual prices; do you understand their predicament??
Most of Mexico has a solid property rights record, Baja is an exception and the Rosarito coast is the extreme of illegality, you can say that it is the worst in the whole Mexico and you can thank Hugo Torres Chavert for it.:mad:

GLNaeve - 8-1-2011 at 02:59 PM

Rmuma53,

I am glad you had a wonderful vacation!

Thank you for the response and the clarification regarding the Federal Zone and the Amparo in Coyote Bay.

The documents citation were servied on the property (September 2008) and accepted by an individual (Mexican Citizen) who was on the property that day. After that individual (Mexican Citizen) signed and accepted the citation, the prpoerty owner was NOT informed by the local individual who took reciept of the citation documents of the fact the citation was served or recieved.

The two citation were challenged in the Federal Constitutional Court in Culiacan, Sinaloa via Nullification Law suit and have been sinice been reconfirmed against the property.

The fines have been levied against the property.

What might the property owner do for the next step in the process? Does the property owner have recourse? Should the property owner pay the fines immediately? Should the property owner dealy and not pay the fines?

Is there someone you can reccomend me to talk to in the Mulege Area? Is there someone you know in Mexico that could guid the property owner?

Thanks for your contiuned input!

With Great Respect,
Gary

ramuma53 - 8-5-2011 at 08:51 PM

GLNaeve
Legal notification is very personal and cannot be served just to anybody who is on the property, it has to be issued to the legal owner registered in the public registry, otherwise the notification is not served legally and the 15 day period do not start for the legal owner.

You say that the citation was challenged and that mean, the owner acknowledged the citation and as a legal consequence, he is legally informed and served.

The only choice is to keep challenging it up to the administrative ruling and then go to an amparo asking for the Federal law protection.

In Mulege I don’t know anybody who can do that, I, when I have something like that; I bring my own expert witness from Tijuana and send my attorneys from Mexico City.
I know, not a cheap option for everybody, let me find out about some local engineer.

ramuma53 - 8-5-2011 at 09:10 PM

Sorry I was not posting more frequently, but I have been working very hard in Mexico city about the Baja Real Estate problem.

Looks like we are we are looking to a light at the end of the tunnel, I was assuming Mexico´s Federal authorities were just going with the flow and letting the developers get away with the wholesale Real Estate fraud.

I have been talking with the Federal Police specialized in organized crime and Military intelligence and I just found out, that they have been for years conducting a very deeeeeeeep investigation on all the Real Estate frauds in the Rosarito area.

All the big names have been linked to organized crime and money laundry, next step will be action and the action teams are being readied. people who were acting as if they were beyond prosecution, will find out they werte not right.

I just provided the legal framework for their actions on several places, one of them Playa Encantada renamed by the crooks La Joya del Mar, another La Puerta del Mar, just to start.

I wasn’t even hoping for what is going to happen is the next months, just watch the news, but at the end of a very active and maybe violent period, the Tijuana to Ensenada coastal strip, will be brought to lawfulness and readied for real and legal investment, with a solid title legal chain, grounded with national Land titles.

Woooosh - 8-6-2011 at 07:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ramuma53
Sorry I was not posting more frequently, but I have been working very hard in Mexico city about the Baja Real Estate problem.

Looks like we are we are looking to a light at the end of the tunnel, I was assuming Mexico´s Federal authorities were just going with the flow and letting the developers get away with the wholesale Real Estate fraud.

I have been talking with the Federal Police specialized in organized crime and Military intelligence and I just found out, that they have been for years conducting a very deeeeeeeep investigation on all the Real Estate frauds in the Rosarito area.

All the big names have been linked to organized crime and money laundry, next step will be action and the action teams are being readied. people who were acting as if they were beyond prosecution, will find out they werte not right.

I just provided the legal framework for their actions on several places, one of them Playa Encantada renamed by the crooks La Joya del Mar, another La Puerta del Mar, just to start.

I wasn’t even hoping for what is going to happen is the next months, just watch the news, but at the end of a very active and maybe violent period, the Tijuana to Ensenada coastal strip, will be brought to lawfulness and readied for real and legal investment, with a solid title legal chain, grounded with national Land titles.

BRAVO! It is good to see real progress being made on the land titles. Let's hope the crooks all fall hard for the economic losses they have caused others, and the local economy so we can slowly rebuild trust with investors. Prices are coming down and if the projects get their land title paperwork in order there is a glimmer of hope people will get what they pay for.

ramuma53 - 8-6-2011 at 09:18 AM

When you have a problem, the first step to correct it, is to acknowledge the fact that you have a problem, then recognize the problem and the factors that create the problem, then find solutions to every factor and the last step is to act and correct every factor that contributes to the problem.
In Baja, we have a Real Estate problem that was detected by me in 1990, the fact is that the Rosarito´s National Land title, was issued against the law in 1879, the Joaquin Machado Valdes title, was issued to him, being an American Citizen, California Resident, violating the Article 2 of the 1863 Law used to issue it.
Also, it was issued for an illegal amount of land, 19,300 Has. When the law allowed only a maximum of 2,500; but that problem was acknowledged long ago, in 1890 by the same people who issued those illegal titles who, in small print in the 1892 National Land law, they allowed the sale of bigger amounts of land with the legal condition that the titles didn´t violate the 1863 law ( a circular proposition, designed not to allow the big American surveyor companies to grab big chunks of Baja, since they had been promised ½ the land they surveyed and they surveyed the whole Baja), then when Joaquin Machado died as an American citizen and was buried in California as an American citizen also, his sons sold the land his father had under an illegal title in 1915 to an American company, an illegal sale since the law forbid then and now the sale to foreigners in the coastal strips and near the borders; the sale was made in San Francisco and registered as the first annotations in the first book on the new Ensenada Public Registry.
Then on May 7, 1917, the new coming out of the Mexican Revolution President, Venustiano Carranza, issued a presidential decree, returning to National Property, all the lands in Baja, that were in foreigners hands, clearly affecting Rancho El Rosarito and returning it to National property, even if you want to speculate that it came out of it at any time, because when you take National land, in an illegal way, or through an illegal procedure, it simple does not come out of national Land dominium, and, that mean, the even if a National land title was issued, since it was an illegal title, it did not took the land out of National property.
Then as a legal fact, we have that, the Rosarito Ranch´s lands, never came out of National Property or it was returned to it in 1917 by presidential decree, it is academic to speculate why, the fact is that Rancho El Rosarito is actually national Land.
The Mexican constitution, that started action in 1917 by another Venustiano Carranza presidential decree, in its 27 article fraction XVIII, say that every title, issued between the dates of 1876 and 1917 is subjected to review and that review, came out November 7, 1952, when by another presidential decree, the Rosarito coastal strip from Rosarito creek to Punta Banda in Ensenada were declared National Land officially.
There you see, that there is no way around the national Land property in the Rosarito to Ensenada coastal strip.
In 1943, the ejido Mazatlan was created, expropriating land from the Joaquin Machado Valdes lands (What lands? Certainly not the Rosarito Ranch lands, because those were national Property, not Joaquin Machado property), then the land never were given to the ejido in a formal way, they just graved every land they wanted. Actually, they have no land in a legal way.
To try to cover that out to allow the Joaquin Machado Valdes title to be, the titles chain legal ground, is not sustainable and violate several laws, one of them the Mexican Constitution and as consequence, ejido Mazatlan exist, but has absolutely no land.
That was acknowledged by the Federal Government in 1992 when I confronted them with legal analysis for that area, they reviewed my conclusions and promptly created a Federal commission to correct the problem, sending a technical and legal team to Baja, opening a Federal office and started taking in claims to allow the legal titles to be issued.
There the problem was acknowledged and actions taken to correct the problem by the Federal Government.
Then the Baja Governor, Ernesto Ruffo Appel, fearing that his business partners will have to pay a lot of money to the Federal Government to buy the lands, where they were then planning to build a lot of development, asked the President to stop the National Land commission and sadly, the then Mexico´s President, allowed the new PAN governor, the first opposition governor in 70 years, to hang himself and his business partners hang by their own actions; the problem is he did not thought the PAN party would take the Presidency next, continuing the illegal action and covering up the illegality for 20 years.
Actually, the Estate government, completely knowing, covered the fact that the developers were building on national Land and selling it as private property, creating an international problem from an administrative problem that was corrected in other estates with easy actions. The Federal government created it too, when they allowed the Estate governor to do it.
That is the problem, it has existed for 20 years and it allowed the developers to sell in a clear fraud against the American buyer and against Mexico property.
I started denouncing the fraud in 1992 in the newspapers, calling it publicly A fraud against the Nation chronicle and since 1995 to 2001 I published 107 articles denouncing the fraud.
That is the problem and the Federal Government is acknowledging it again at this very moment.
This is not to scare anybody away from Real Estate in Baja, it is actually to correct the problem and to bring real justice and lawfulness to a paradisiacal land.
My actual proposal to the Federal government is this:
See who was holding the land legally in 1990 when the problem started to be covered up, return the land to the legal owners and or obligate the developers to pay for it at actual prices, protecting the American buyers, just put a solid base under their titles and just let the American buyer continue enjoying the properties they have, under fideicomiso, without a problem; in other words, making the problem and its biter solution, transparent to the good faith buyer while taking out all those developers that built over national Land knowingly.
Of course they are going to fight it, but since they have committed a federal crime, they are open for Federal prosecution and may have to fight it from inside a federal prison.
Hugo Torres Chavert has been the leader for the developers, he supposedly has a lot of political power, since he claim he is very close to Manglio Favio Beltrones, one of the Mexico´s Senate leaders and presidential pre candidate; he claim that he has absolute control over Federal courts in Baja, he claim he have absolute control over the Baja Estate governor and we know he command a lot of dark money, but I don´t think that is going to be enough at this time, when Mexico went through a very bad political crises, that allowed the organized crime to control big chunks of Mexico.
He is not the only one, the ejido Mazatlan leadership like Enrique Esquivel Haros and Oscar Salazar are also the fraud tools, with small fish like Fernando Gomez Chaves and a lot of others, who tried to steal from a lot of Americans and Mexicans alike.
I say, they tried, but we are about to see how they failed.
Rafael Muñoz Martinez

Woooosh - 8-6-2011 at 09:54 AM

There are men here in Rosarito right now doing a Federal Zone investigation of some kind. I have not seen these "type" men before. They were not local PROFEPA, SEMARNAT or PGJE. They look to be "Chilangos"- with perfect white shirts and business suits and a driving a new gray Tahoe SUV. They did not have any badges but they did have a clipboard in their truck they were making detailed notes on. When they finished their inspection I went over to their truck and gave each of them the DVD video of the problems we are having in the area. They were very nice and thanked me for the video and photos. This was interesting because the men were so different and out of place. It does match what you say is going on here.

[Edited on 8-6-2011 by Woooosh]

ramuma53 - 8-7-2011 at 10:15 AM

Woooosh
For what I know and I don´t supose to know much, the intelligence teams have been on the Rosarito to Ensenada Coastal strip for months, they belong to the Federal Police specialized team against organized crime and money laundry together with the Army intelligence teams.
They already finished the investigation and sent it by their separate ways to the top, it went to the legal analysis and came out ordering a inmediate correction that coincide with what I have been proposing for years.
Nexts step will be action and I do not know how they are going to do it, but I have been asured they will do something strong that will correct the problem without entangling in the courts for years.
I put to their consideration your Federal Zone problem and they told me that thery have all the particular information already and that it is a part of the whole.
I will insist only if we see no action soon.

Woooosh - 8-7-2011 at 09:02 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ramuma53
Woooosh
I put to their consideration your Federal Zone problem and they told me that thery have all the particular information already and that it is a part of the whole.
I will insist only if we see no action soon.


I'm glad my situation and the video were helpful for them to see the problem with their own eyes because it is so far from Mexico city.

We went to the PROFEPA office in TJ last month because they had requested a copy of the current title and proof of current payment. The PROFEPA inspector recognized us (through the one way glass I presume) and came over to greet us. We handed him the papers and he said they were "pushing our denunica" through. I also got an unsolicited e-mail from the "Secretaría de Protección al Ambiente, Gobierno del Estado de Baja California" saying she saw the video but has not received a denuncia from us and did not understand the problem. I think we have filed enough papers for now and you have fought a good fight. Now we just wait a few months and see the result.


Clearly these irregularities occurred over a long period of time under the watch of all these agencies that were supposed to regulate it. How does Mexico handle this? These are all federal agencies but the alleged co-conspirators are local. How will this play out?

[Edited on 8-8-2011 by Woooosh]

ramuma53 - 8-8-2011 at 07:53 PM

Woooosh
I am sorry to say it, but they only fix the problems that are too problematic for them or too public too and that is why they are giving you attention, but as soon as you drop your guard, they will continue with business as usual.
In other words, they are conunting on you dropping your guard to forget your claims as soon as possible, our job is not to let them do it and solve the problem before nature does.

ramuma53 - 8-20-2011 at 09:52 AM

Wooosh
The reason Mr. Duran is not worried about all that disorder, is because he bought the land from the Federal Government, who has not given him the law formalities, represented by giving him his private property title and at the same time legal personality to defend the land in court, but at the same time the commercial transaction was concluded at the instant he paid the Nation and the Nation received his money; at this time he is the legal owner, but since the Federal government has not given him his title, the one responsible for defending the land in court is the SRA and at the time the Federal Government give him his title, the Federal Government has to give him the sold land clean of any squatters (Hugo Torres and everyone else).
Concerning the Federal Government, to give the land clean of any squatters, they have the strong arm constituted by the Army and Federal Police and that was the tool used on the Animale´s problem a couple of years back. (I think they did it as a legal try and example and now they have a precedent that was what they really wanted)
The guy that was claiming Animale´s ownership, showed a sale contract by Hugo Torres and claimed that he bought the land legally from him and the Federal Police inspected his documents and asked the SRA; after receiving the SRA official National land ownership confirmation, they just started a federal investigation to see who was using Federal property in an illegal way, they went to Rosarito, caught the proclaimed owner, bought him to Mexico city and took his formal declaration; of course his attorney showed the sale contract by Hugo Torres Chavert and claim of Private property; then they informed them that they were claiming property of National Property and accepting they were using National property; they asked from them the Federal permit to use National Land and received none, only the claim that it was private property already.
The Federal Police showed them the National Property declaration and asked for any proof that the land was extracted from National Property through a legally issued title, in other words, their national land title; they produced nothing and claimed that Hugo Torres Chavert sold it to them as private property and that his name was beyond doubt (????).
The Federal Police told them that concerning to them, they just confessed to using Federal property without legal permit and trying to sale National land and being those felonies Federal heavy crimes, they would be retained in a Federal jail until a Federal Judge decided on their crimes, no bail allowed.
At that time, they collapsed and asked to pay their way out without knowing Mr. Duran was there among the policeman; of course the petition was taken note officially and denied and at that time informed them, their legal situation and that the only way out was by making a deal with Mr. Duran who was the only recognized official permit holder to use that land.
They promptly signed a contract with Mr. Duran and ran out of the Federal Police headquarters in front of the Revolution monument in Mexico City.
There you see that you are right about the possibility to use a permission from him to demonstrate legal use of that land.
I will get in contact with him and ask for it, you can count on that, but timing may be a problem.
He and I are invited to an inauguration from the Giordano Bruno global education association that belongs to the Club of Budapest international foundation in Budapest Hungary on September 15 and for sure I will see him there.
I will try to see him before that date, but I don’t know where he is in the world today, but I can promise you I will try to do it before that date and for sure on that date.

ramuma53 - 8-24-2011 at 07:21 AM

Playa Encantada
At this time trying to be sold in a fraudulent way as La JOYA DEL MAR by Hugo Torres Chavert group.
This 16 Has. Land Lot, is located between the Km. 29+482 to 31.5 National no. 1 Highway, Tijuana to Ensenada, in Rosarito Beach Baja California.
In 1949 it was bought by Juana Martinez de Muñoz and Mercedes Martinez de Velilla from Rosa Machado, who claimed to be a Joaquin Machado descendant.
It was developed in to one of the most popular beaches in Rosarito Beach and was visited by 1000s of people every weekend from 1950 to 1979.
In 1952 a National Land commission, visited the Rosarito Beach area, that at that time, was Tijuana city; they issued a few National Land titles in the El Morro area and notified Mrs. Juana Martinez de Muñoz about the national land status the lot she was holding legally had, she asked for a federal permission to use National Land in the mean while she got her National land title and got it.
In 1992 an Inafectability certificate was issued to Rafael Muñoz Martinez, Mrs. Juana Martinez de Muñoz son; that certificate was issued by the SRA assuring that that land was not an Ejido; it is also recognized as a property title according to the Supreme Court.
In 1992, her neighbor Tomas Corona Rodriguez, asked the national land office to issue a title on the same land that was being owned by Mrs. Muñoz, issuing him a national land procedure that was paid in 1992.
In 1999, Jorge del Rio Torres and Fernando Gomez Chavez (Tomas Corona´s attorney at that time and defending Castillos del Mar as national land also) after being allowed to live in a house owned by Mrs. Muñoz, confabulated with Ejido Mazatlan to steal the land.
In 2000 Jorge del Rio Torres and Fernando Gomez Chavez, just pretending to be the owners, gave the land to the Ejido Mazatlan through the Agrarian Court (legally the Agrarian Court is unable to give away or deal with National land).
The Ejido Mazalan was created in 1937, expropriating land to the Joaquin Machado property, but as we know, Joaquin Machado title was inexistent and any way was sold by the Machado family in 1916 to a foreign company and returned to national Land status in 1917; this mean that the Ejido Mazatlan was legally created but it has no physical land.
As part of the Ejido Mazatlan, the parcel 58A was created and it was assigned to the area in between the Scenic highway and the national highway, this parcel in 1986 was expropriated to the Ejido and paid to them by CORETT and as a legal consequence, it no longer belonged to the Ejido Mazatlan.
In 2002, the Agrarian court, without calling to court or even notifying Tomas Corona or Maria Elizabeth Espinoza Montaño (Juana Martinez de Muñoz legal representative), issued a rulling without a legal audice, giving the land to the Ejido Mazatlan, arguing that Fernando Gomez Chavez was an ejidatario and was holding part of parcel 58A; the land was given to him peacefully by Jorge del Rio Torres.
In 2002 the Estate Supreme court ruled that Castillos del mar was private property extracted from National Land, that the Ejido Mazatlan parcel 58A had been previously expropriated to the Ejido Mazatlan and no longer belonged to them, that the parcel 58A was the land in between the two highways and not to the west of the highway.
After simulating receiving the land from Jorge del Rio Torres, Promptly Fernando Gomez Chavez, the crooked and traitor attorney, sold the land to Hugo Torres Chavert group and La Joya del mar was created on National land; they thought that they had just stolen a lot to create a new fraud against American buyers.
The only problem is that Tomas Corona gave away and recognized as legal owner to Maria Elizabeth Espinoza Montaño, a relative to Juana Martinez de Muñoz and since then, she has been asking to the SRA to issue her National land title.
At this time, when the Mexican government has decided at least to get rid of the organized crime, Hugo Torres Chavert is going down and he is being investigated by Interpol and the PGR organized crime division and his influence is going down.
The Sra is now ready to issue the Maria Elizabeth Espinoza Montaño national land title and at the same time, the PGR has finished a 2 year investigation of the Fraud committed by Hugo Torres Chavert, Jorge del Rio Torres, Fernando Gomez Chavez and Ejido Mazatlan to steal national land using the Agrarian court.
Since the Federal Government, sold the national Land to Maria Elizabeth Espinoza Montaño, she is the legal owner and the SRA through the PGR has to grab all the crooks that thought they had stolen National land. The PGR has a complete file on the fraud committed to try to steal the land.
Try because no person can claim national land or receive National land through any other way but the National Land office, not even the Agrarian court.
At this time Maria Elizabeth, is working in Mexico City to obtain the required orders to receive her National land title and the PGR will have to clear the land from any squatters like Hugo Torres Chavert, Fernando Gomez Chavez, Ejido Mazatlan or Jorge del Rio Relatives.
Sorry if any American buyer was defrauded to buy in La Joya del Mar, but they can claim to be good faith buyer and avoid being prosecuted by just giving away the condominium they bought from those crooks.
Sorry but we have to remember that the Playa Encantada/La Joya del Mar is not exactly a secret, it has been showed in the news several times and is no secret it is National Land, I myself published several whole newspaper pages for 10 years about that problem and the way those crooks were defrauding the nation and the American buyer.
We know that may smart American buyers asked to get their money back from La Joya del Mar, but some remain, only a few unbelievers and only those are going to be harmed when the PGR act; not by the legal action but by their own stubbornness.

wessongroup - 8-24-2011 at 10:00 AM

Can only say, thanks for all the shared information on Baja Real Estate... simply an outstanding thread ...

ramuma53 - 9-7-2011 at 07:35 AM

Wooosh
The federal zone is according to the law:
{When the coast has a beach and the solid ground beside the beach has a natural slope of less than 30 degrees, a Federal zone will be measured starting on the first solid ground and measuring 20 meters inland.}
That is the law, but let’s now interpret it.
That mean that Federal Zone exist only where the coast has a beach.
That mean that the Federal zone exist only if the solid ground beside the beach has a less than 30 degree slope.
The Federal Zone will be measured starting from the highest ocean water´s level, measured on NORMAL CONDITIONS (That mean not during a storm or extreme high tide)
Those are two conditions that the law has so the Federal Zone exists and that mean that if those conditions does not exist, the Federal Zone will not be measured and established.
In your case the coast has a beach and the slope has less than 30 degrees, so a Federal Zone must exist starting from the highest water level during normal conditions.
Technically, when the Federal Zone is measured, it is measured by an official team, usually a very efficient team (usually because in North Baja the work is spotless but in South Baja it was a sloppy work that sometimes goes 60 mts. inland.).
Then official markers are put in the ground but very usually those markers are destroyed by extreme waves or vandalism, but where they exist in North Baja, they are exact to the millimeter and used normally by the professional topographical teams to establish official position and that mean that you can reference a land lot in any place measuring its position related to those markers.
That mean, that the Federal Zone, once measured and published on official maps, becomes a mathematical reference and you can find the position of any official marker with a precision of 3 millimeters.
That mean in your case that the Federal Zone, exist as a theoretical line, that is a legal limit to that Federal Zone, but that line was established and measured in 1976 when the official plans for the Federal Zone in that area were published by the Federal Government.
Now a practical problem comes in to play, in 1976, the coastal line was different, the CFE breakwater has modified the coastal line while the Theoretical line has not moved at all to reflect the new limits for the coastal line.
The law has not changed and it keeps defining the Federal zone in that area the same way (in 1992 the law changed and the Federal Zone does not exist beside cliffs because they have a slope of more than 30 degrees) and now we have a disagreement between the Zone measured in 1976 and the Zone that is inside the theoretical line limit for the Federal Zone in 1976.
Your concession was granted only a few years back while the Cadastral limits were established long time ago and measured according to the 1976 theoretical Federal Zone.
That mean that the building was built according to the theoretical Federal Zone limits while your concession was granted according to the actual limits and there is a disagreement between those two lines that is being exploited by the building to allow it to exist there while the local Federal Zone does not want to see the disagreement.
What to do? There are official procedures to modify the theoretical lines and make them agree with reality and that mean that the Federal Zone authorities must modify the Federal Zone works and publish the results so everyone know where the real coastal line is to 3 mm in rescission.
That is known as Ground invaded by the sea modifications, but as you know, to modify all those plans on a regular basis, is an endless job and a very costly job for the government, so they do not do it, unless somebody ask for them.
That is your case, you must ask for that theoretical line to be modified and put where it agree with reality and that will put the building inside the ocean and on Marine Zone, not Federal zone and you cannot build in Marine Zone.

[Edited on 9-7-2011 by ramuma53]

Woooosh - 9-7-2011 at 07:58 AM

Thanks Raphael. What is the process to request the theoretical line to be moved to create a real line? Logic would say the request would be automatic- when someone requests a concession for the Federal Zone, so the actual line could be determined for the title being considered. We did request by way of a signed photo showing water in the street, for the line to be moved- and that line is reflected in the concession we were granted. But if that is not a "real" line, what do we file to make it one- a denuncia for the condo tower?

ramuma53 - 9-7-2011 at 02:46 PM

When you request the concesion, they must survey the site, but obviously they went the easy way and just measured it, without correcting the official and public ZFMT boundaries according to the law and present coastal line.

Woooosh - 9-7-2011 at 03:50 PM

I can't be the first person since 1976 to ask for a survey for the FMZ line to be moved in central Rosarito Beach east towards land and then back 20 meters to establish the true Federal Zone. In all of Rosarito, I am the first one? Can't be.

Maybe the survey teams are busy? ;)

Woooosh - 9-8-2011 at 09:32 AM

http://rosaritoenlanoticia.blogspot.com/2011/09/palco-de-pre...

By Gilberto Lavenant
Yesterday, Wednesday September 7, something happened that big surely benefit the inhabitants of the municipality of Playas de Rosarito, Presiding Javier Aguirre Robles. This was in the Riviera Cultural Center of Ensenada.
In the plenary session of the Twentieth Legislature, chaired by Mr. Carlos Murgía Mejia presented a Point of Agreement, to integrate an Investigating Committee that investigates all that is necessary to check the irregularities, abuses and crimes committed unscrupulous individuals who hold as owners of Playas de Rosarito. Yes, although they Surprisingly, using legalistic tricks, surprising unsuspecting, and taking advantage of good faith, in some cases, and buying intentions, in other two groups vivales have been engaged in robbing the rosaritenses and residents south of Tijuana. This is an area of more than 19,000 acres, whose title was issued on July 30, 1879 by President Porfirio Diaz, on behalf of "Joaquin Machado, brothers and heirs of Manuel Machado." The only true owner of the property, which sits almost the entire town of Playas de Rosarito and a part of Tijuana, died in November 1910. Since then, cases have been reported in three trials to win intestamentarios Rosario, and fourth in 2000, for 9 people Machado Valdez surname, so gruesome and irregular. Those who have observed the actions of the dossier on these sequences accumulated detected with ease the many irregularities that were incurred, as the present Rosarito Beach as a vacant property, a 19.300 acre desert ranch, with a plan certified by Mario Zepeda Herrera, being official cadastre Beaches Rosarito, who incidentally is currently serving as Director of Cadastre XX City of Tijuana, and an appraisal on El Rosario, or Rosarito Beach, which states that no buildings of any kind. The expert in all this was a certain Cecilio Pintado, in case you know, cuéntenselo who will have more confidence. It's dangerous. This issue is not new, many people have been robbed by these vivales taking advantage of the ignorance on the subject have many rosaritenses. The "negotiations" begin demanding 50% of the land, deceive them by inviting them to joint venture contracts and finally stripped of all its properties. It is aware Governor Jose Guadalupe Osuna Millan, and has not done anything about it. He knows too Francisco Blake Mora, Secretary of the Interior, and has not done anything. The former mayor of Rosarito, Hugo Torres, had extensive knowledge of it, but apparently "negotiated" not messing with the thugs in exchange that does not affect its properties. Two former mayor, José Enrique Díaz Félix and Antonio Macias, are partners or employees of the robbers. There is evidence of it and that we will discuss in the next few days. The issue was raised in recent days to the Deputy Julio Felipe García, coordinator of the parliamentary faction of the PRI in the state congress, who, seeing the gravity of things, exposed him to fellow legislators Wednesday presented the corresponding Point of Agreement by the Representative David Lozano. The approving vote was unanimous. In these schemes, which are not anything, because it speaks of amounts to several million dollars in each case, involving two groups. On the one hand, the alleged heirs of Joaquin Machado and suspected his brothers, who accounted for several damage Jaime Armando López Ferreiro. In the other group appears at the head Ramirez Pedro Campuzano, son of architect Pedro Ramirez Vazquez, who takes refuge on a letterhead of a company called Moreno and Company. Among the lawyers in this group are Oscar Tellez Ulloa, Francisco Contreras, Alfredo Alvarez Cárdenas, Alejandro Gonzalez Alcocer, and even Enrique Gómez Llanos, newly appointed member of the State Institute of Access to Public Information. In the preamble, said Rep. Lozano that "... The question now exponemo, is of great importance to all residents of the municipalities of Playas de Rosarito and Tijuana. In particular, we refer to the case of estate of more than 19 thousand 300 hectares known as "Rancho El Rosario, or Rosarito" that covers the entire town of Playas de Rosarito and the southeast of Tijuana, which is building the knowledge that title was granted on July 30, 1879 by President Porfirio Diaz in return for military services rendered by Manuel Machado, then died, and that the source of the problem of land tenure, the expedition's starting point of that title. " The legislator said that this has resulted in addition of insecurity and uncertainty in the land, that, 132 years away from issuing the Order of the Rosary, which committed a number of extortion , illegally obtaining millions of dollars, by different people, under the premise of Joachim Machado said heirs or their supposed brothers. Something similar to what happened in the case of ICSA, Real Californians, SA, a company that owns Tijuana said, having been awarded rights to the original owners of the Rancho de Tia Juana. So many times has this type of robberies reported, which seemed all were involved in these crimes. PRI state legislators, seeing the size of the irregularities, they decided to "take the bull by the horns." Yesterday he took the first step. gil_lavenants@hotmail.com

ramuma53 - 9-8-2011 at 10:16 AM

Wooosh
It may sound funny to you, but yes, you are the first one to do it, most other people just take advantage and try to proffit from the irregularity, most of all, the ZFMT employees.

ramuma53 - 9-8-2011 at 10:27 AM

Thank you Woooosh

Looks like the Estate Congress finally is deciding to acti against all those crooks that have defrauded the American real estate buyer and Mexican pseudo owners.
It is the original source and it is in spanish, but I preffer you to have it in its original form and in case you have a question, make it here.
I put here the web link to the publication:

http://rosaritoenlanoticia.blogspot.com/2011/09/palco-de-pre...
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Por Gilberto Lavenant
El día de ayer, miércoles 7 de Septiembre, ocurrió algo que seguramente beneficiará en grande a los habitantes del Municipio de Playas de Rosarito, que Preside Javier Robles Aguirre. Esto ocurrió en el Centro Cultural Riviera del puerto de Ensenada.
En la sesión del pleno de la XX Legislatura Estatal, que preside el Lic. Carlos Murgía Mejía, se presentó un Punto de Acuerdo, para integrar una Comisión Investigadora, que indague todo lo que sea necesario para verificar las irregularidades, abusos y fechorías que cometen individuos sin escrúpulos, que se ostentan como propietarios de Playas de Rosarito.

Si, aunque les parezca sorprendente, utilizando artimañas legaloides, sorprendiendo incautos, y aprovechándose de la buena fe, en algunos casos, y comprándo voluntades, en otros, dos grupos de vivales se han dedicado a esquilmar a los rosaritenses y a residentes del sur de Tijuana. Se trata de un predio de más de 19,000 hectáreas, cuyo título de propiedad fue expedido el 30 de julio de 1879 por el Presidente Porfirio Díaz, a nombre de “Joaquín Machado, Hermanos y coherederos de Manuel Machado”.

El único propietario cierto de dicho predio, en el que está asentado casi la totalidad del poblado de Playas de Rosarito y una parte de Tijuana, falleció en noviembre de 1910. Desde entonces, se han denunciado en tres ocasiones juicios intestamentarios para adjudicarse El Rosario, y una cuarta en el 2000, a favor de 9 personas de apellidos Machado Valdez, de manera truculenta e irregular.

Quienes han observado las actuaciones del expediente relativo a dichas sucesiones acumuladas, han detectado con suma facilidad las múltiples irregularidades en que se incurrió, como el presentar a Playas de Rosarito como un predio baldío, como un ranchito desierto de 19,300 hectáreas, con un plano certificado por Mario Zepeda Herrera, siendo funcionario de Catastro de Playas de Rosarito, quien por cierto actualmente funge como Director de Catastro del XX Ayuntamiento de Tijuana, así como un avaluo, relativo a El Rosario, o sea Playas de Rosarito, en el que se asevera que no presenta construcciones de ningún tipo. El perito en todo esto lo fue un tal Cecilio Pintado, por si lo conocen, cuéntenselo a quien más confianza le tengan. Es peligroso.

Este asunto no es nuevo, muchas personas han sido despojadas por estos vivales, aprovechando el desconocimiento que sobre el tema tienen muchos rosaritenses. Las “negociaciones” empiezan exigiéndoles el 50 % de los predios, los engañan invitándolos a celebrar contratos de coinversión y finalmente los despojan del total de sus propiedades.

De ello está enterado el Gobernador José Guadalupe Osuna Millán, y no ha hecho nada para evitarlo. Lo sabe también Francisco Blake Mora, Secretario de Gobernación, y tampoco ha hecho nada. El exalcalde de Playas de Rosarito, Hugo Torres, tuvo amplio conocimiento de ello, pero al parecer “negoció”, no metiéndose con los rufianes, a cambio de que no le afectaran sus propiedades. Dos exalcalde, José Enrique Díaz Félix y Antonio Macias, son socios o empleados de los atracadores. Hay pruebas de ello y esto lo comentaremos en los próximos días.

El asunto fue planteado en días pasados al diputado Julio Felipe García, coordinador de la fracción parlamentaria del PRI en el Congreso del Estado, quien viendo la gravedad de las cosas, lo expuso a sus compañeros legisladores y ayer miércoles se presentó el correspondiente Punto de Acuerdo por parte del Diputado David Lozano. La votación aprobatoria, fue unánime.

En estas triquiñuelas, que no son cualquier cosa, pues se habla de montos de varios millones de dólares en cada caso, participan dos grupos. Por un lado, los supuestos herederos de Joaquín Machado y de los presuntos hermanos de este, a quienes durante varios daños representó Jaime Armando López Ferreiro.

En el otro grupo, aparece a la cabeza Pedro Ramírez Campuzano, hijo del Arq. Pedro Ramírez Vazquez, quien se escuda en un membrete de una empresa denominada Moreno y Compañía. Entre los abogados de este grupo aparecen Oscar Tellez Ulloa, Francisco Contreras, Alfredo Alvarez Cárdenas, Alejandro González Alcocer e incluso Enrique Gómez Llanos, recién designado integrante del Instituto Estatal de Acceso a la Información Pública.

En la exposición de motivos, el diputado Lozano manifestó que “…El asunto que hoy exponemo, resulta de gran importancia para todos los habitantes de los municipios de Playas de Rosarito y Tijuana. En particular, nos referimos al caso del predio de más de 19 mil 300 hectáreas denominado “Rancho El Rosario o Rosarito” que abarca la totalidad del poblado de Playas de Rosarito y la zona sureste de Tijuana, inmueble del cual se tiene conocimiento de que el título de propiedad fue otorgado el 30 de Julio de 1879, por el Presidente Porfirio Díaz, en pago de servicios militares prestados por don Manuel Machado, entonces fallecido, y que el origen de esta problemática de tenencia de la tierra, parte precisamente de la expedición de dicho título”.

El legislador dijo que esto ha dado lugar, además de inseguridad e incertidumbre en la tenencia de la tierra, a que, a 132 años de distancia de la expedición del título de El Rosario, que se cometan un sinnúmero de extorsiones, obteniendo ilícitamente millones de dólares, por parte personas diversas, bajo la premisa de decirse herederos de Joaquín Machado o de sus supuestos hermanos. Algo similar a lo ocurrido en el caso de ICSA, Inmuebles Californianos, S.A., empresa que se decía propietaria de Tijuana, al haberse adjudicado derechos de los propietarios originales del Rancho de Tía Juana.

Tantas veces se ha denunciado este tipo de atracos, que parecía que todos estaban involucrados en estas fechorías. Los legisladores estatales priístas, viendo el tamaño de las irregularidades, decidieron “tomar el toro por los cuernos”. Ayer se dió el primer paso.
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Woooosh - 9-8-2011 at 11:19 AM

We forwarded the History of El Rosario to the author: Gilbert Lavenants, who also wrote the article above. He must have been at your conference last year. The corrections in red you made will be of interest to him. We will let you know if he responds with any questions. This looks to be part of a series he is writing, with more tomorrow. We buried him with info about Rancho La Costa Azul and the Rosarito Malecon project. Very good timing.

[Edited on 9-8-2011 by Woooosh]

wessongroup - 9-8-2011 at 11:22 AM

Pretty impressive.. moving the direction of things.. to some degree, at this time.. it would appear... very interesting to follow... thanks as it all helps...:):)

Woooosh - 9-9-2011 at 07:19 PM

apparently they are serious about it. They formed a committee to study El Rosario with the following members:

"La Comisión Investigadora de El Rosario, será presidida por la diputada Rosana Soto Agüero, representante del distrito electoral que corresponde a Playas de Rosarito y parte del sureste de Tijuana, y la integrarán además los Diputados, David Lozano, quien presentó la propuesta del Punto de Acuerdo, el Diputado Carlos Murguía, actual Presidente de la Legislatura, así como los Diputados Dado Alatorre y Fausto Zarate Zepeda."

http://www.rosaritoenlanoticia.info/2011/09/legisladores-ini...

What's your opinion of the team they put together?

Cypress - 9-10-2011 at 12:43 PM

Smoke and Mirrors. Unless you're a "high dollar" outfit with connections, when you buy south of the border real estate, you're on your own(?), you think you own what you paid for. Untill, someone, maybe a cousin of the seller, decides that they didn't approve. Well! Now we're into a tangled legal situation. Hire a lawyer! Etc. Etc.:biggrin:

Woooosh - 9-10-2011 at 02:16 PM

I don't think so this time, but I certainly understand your cynicism.

With 70 unfinished projects in the TJ-Ensenada corridor, the Baja legislature decided to tackle who the true owners of El Rosario are (which is all of Rosarito beach). They will say this is to help investor confidence (and it will) but it's really about Mexican families who got screwed by other Mexican families trying to get some justice. The reporter above finds the fraud pretty sloppy and not hard to figure out. It says Mayor Torres agreed to not interfere so long as his properties were not affected.

I really don't know what it means in practical terms to those of us in Rosarito. El Rosario covers our fraccionamiento and most all of Rosarito. Do we all need to re-do our land titles from the new/real/legal owner- the whole city needs to do this? I really don't know what this looks like once implemented. The new owner that surfaces will surely want something from everyone- in his cit,y on his land... it is Mexico after all.

wessongroup - 9-10-2011 at 02:24 PM

Assigning to a Committee somehow gives me chills... it is after all rather straight forward ......... IMHO... will require a lot more effort on yours and others ... with questionable results...

Best of luck ... you are fighting the "Good Fight"....

Could be a significant positive step for Mexico on taking care of many front burner issues... and would long term help many folks... from both sides of the border... :):)

If it all works.. can I say I knew ya when... :lol::lol::lol:

[Edited on 9-10-2011 by wessongroup]

Woooosh - 9-10-2011 at 02:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by wessongroup

If it all works.. can I say I knew ya when... :lol::lol::lol:



Yeah, when I was alive. :O

wessongroup - 9-10-2011 at 03:08 PM

Ya all ready know my thoughts on that ya crazy bastard.. :lol::lol:

May I suggest a new SUV for you and your family...



[Edited on 9-10-2011 by wessongroup]

ramuma53 - 9-18-2011 at 05:57 PM

Ok
As you say, he has title to the land and I am sure he doesn’t, at least a legal one; he may have one illegal registered and appear as legal, but it is not.
The one behind all those frauds and the one who cover them up is Hugo Torres Chavert so do not trust him or any Rosarito major that must be related to him and all of them are because that is why he pursue the political posts, to be able to control this part of the business.

The importance of the fact that they have no title, is because they are over a national land declaration, 1952 global national land declaration published November 7, 1952 on the official newspaper; that mean that that land is National land and in a legal consequence, you have been the victim of Federal fraud together with the nation and because of that, the federal police and federal courts have jurisdiction; that mean you have to file a federal criminal case against those people arguing that the nation is also a victim on this fraud.
Please before you file it, send me copy of the writing your attorney is going to make to give you last minute suggestions and or directions and suggestions.
The Federal Police is a different animal to deal with, it will not be that easy for him to avoid them and when they catch him, he will not be able to go out, because it is a heavy federal crime and at this time it is becoming a national priority to deal with all those crooks exactly as with the drugs because all those developments have been built with drug money.
The New Regional director for the Federal Police is a friend of mine and he made the investigation to that kind of frauds starting 4 years ago, also I provided the Federal Police and Military Federal Police with all the elements to be able to prosecute this kind of cases and you will find that they know a lot about that kind of problems.

On the business side, since it is national land, you can own it only through a fideicomiso and a Mexican must own that land first, so get a Mexican national who enjoy your confidence and make a claim to the whole property on his name ( I can tell you how, don’t worry), making a contract with him to obligate him give you the land in fideicomiso after he get the national land title; that way, you will get the highest right over the whole lot and even if you spend more money, you will be making a legal business that will give you a big return on your investment. This will be in a short time the way to correct all the Rosarito land problems.
If you do not do this, you can be sure, you will lose your money after going in to big expenses in trying to get your money back the way you are doing it, because the crooks dominate the whole local legal process, to catch them, it is only possible on the federal level.
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I’ll try to sum this up the best I can….

We were sold ocean front lots in Esmeralda back in Feb of 2006.

Gibbs our real estate agent lured us by giving us false information.
The developers, Forteleza, (legal representative, Alessandro Bellomusto), do have title to the property
but never had the permits to build nor divide the lots as Gibbs said.
Our monies were quickly deposited in a US bank then wire transferred to another.

The same day that Forteleza registered the property, Jan. 2007, a lien was slapped on it for 1.8 million.
We think it was self-inflicted because the lien holder, Jamie Castro Parra is connected with Alessandro.

Three of us had filed criminal law suits and did have convictions, but were over turned because the courts based the statute of limitations on the date of the contract signing, and not on when the land was promised to us. (18 months later)
When we brought all this to the attention of Mayor Hugo Torres, he agreed this was fraudulent and filed a criminal suit against these parties on behalf of the City of Rosarito.
That was last July and the suit has sat stagnant with the criminals doing business as usual.

When the new Mayor took office, we had another meeting when he stated that the case would be pursued. It appears it isn’t.

The reason we have been trying to work with the city is that Alessandro has listed false addresses and cannot be served.
The office address, next to Dianne Gibbs office has been boarded up for years.
We have since gotten permission from the courts to serve him personally but we only get a short window of time with the court clerks.
They go to the Dental office he owns in TJ and he runs inside and hides and the clerks can’t pursue.

Our goal is to serve and get a lien on the property. We have listed other properties he owns on our law suits but he is a master
At not registering them-perhaps with help from the notarios.

We had 2 previous attorneys, one corrupt and one inept and now we have someone we really trust who is working on contingency and
Basic expenses. She is new but is partners with someone who has been in business for 20 yrs. and advises her.

What do you think?

ramuma53 - 9-18-2011 at 06:00 PM

Woooosh
Your new SUV looks nice
Do not worry, nobody would even think on harming you at this time, the whole army would land in Rosarito to catch them and they know it, Baja is trying to clean up its act and the last thing they would do is to harm the people moving the gears to do their job and that guy is you.

ramuma53 - 9-18-2011 at 06:26 PM

Concerning the congress investigation
They are very ignorant on the legal facts, at this time we can say that you know more than them after reading this thread.

They are arguing over several groups that have been trying to get the Rancho El Rosarito property, using legal maneuvers. In other words trying to convince a local judge to proclaim them as legal owners, grounding the right on the 1879 title
But the main issues here are:
The Rancho El Rosarito 1879 title was issued for 19,300 Has. An area that make it an illegal title.
The Rancho El Rosarito 1879 title was issued to a foreigner, because Joaquin Machado Valdes was born in San Diego California and an American citizen.
The Rancho El Rosarito 1879 title was sold in 1916 by the Machado family to a foreigner, and as a legal consequence, returned to national property by the 1917 presidential decree.
The Rancho El Rosarito 1879 title was declared national land in 1952 and 1986.
As a unavoidable consequence, any person who is claiming to be a relative to Joaquin Machado Valdes, brothers and relatives, absolutely has no right to Rancho El Rosarito.
Also, any person who is trying to convince a local judge to give him a property right over Rancho El Rosarito, is trying to make him commit a legal mistake, because no local authority can give property rights over national land and as consequence he is trying to steal from the national property, using a local judge, committing a Fraud against the nation and lying to a local judge.
Case closed and an easy one for Congress if they really want to do something.
Concerning Hugo Torres Chavert, since all his proclaimed properties are over Rancho El Rosarito and national Land in consequence, clearly he is affected by the investigation and he has been the main actor in the cover up and financing of all those illegal procedures to try to steal from national property.
Just lets try to provide those congresman with the very public information for their investigation and see if they are honest on their intentions, because if not, we will know that they are not really trying to correct the problem that is turning away all the American buyers.

Woooosh - 9-18-2011 at 07:06 PM

Welcome back Raphael. The information you provided to the claimant on Esmeralda is important. I do feel bad for this person because it is so easy for the crooks to take your money, but so hard to get it back. If they follow your advice and strategy their attorney (on contingency) and the plaintiff will both be rewarded. Wouldn't it be nice if the victims win one? It does seem like a very complicated process- but that's what attorneys are for. Great contribution to this topic!
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